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Next entry: Rich wingnuts are usually true believers Previous entry: Adulthood, lack of jobs, and slippery definitions

What The Hell Is Ground Zero, Anyway?

As the debate has endlessly worn on about the Park 51 Islamic community center, two things have become abundantly clear.  The first is that much of our discourse in this country is fundamentally driven by a strain of Islamophobia tempered only by the fact that overt displays of violence are likely to end up on YouTube.  The second is that the people seeking to protect Ground Zero have no fucking idea what the World Trade Center was, what Ground Zero is, where it is, how it’s perceived, or, likely, what the words “Ground” and “Zero” mean.

Case in point: Andy McCarthy’s Ground Zero Thought Experiment.

Imagine that there really were these fundamentalist Christian terror cells all over the United States, as the Department of Homeland Security imagines. Let’s say a group of five of these terrorists hijacked a plane, flew it to Mecca, and plowed it into the Kaaba.

Now let’s say a group of well-meaning, well-funded Christians — Christians whose full-time job was missionary work — decided that the best way to promote healing would be to pressure the Saudi government to drop its prohibition against permitting non-Muslims into Mecca so that these well-meaning, well-funded Christian missionaries could build a $100 million dollar church and community center a stone’s throw from where the Kaaba used to be — you know, as a bridge-building gesture of interfaith understanding.

McCarthy then goes on to ask what the reaction would be from Obama, the State Department, Saudis, etc.  Because, as we all know, patterning your reaction to the construction of a religiously-influenced building on how it would play in Saudi Arabia is the exact right move.  After all, America was founded as a totalitarian theocracy…and stuff.

But what struck me about this was the building used in the analogy.  The Kaaba is the holiest spot in Islam, the central place to which all Muslims pray.

Now, granted, I was 19 when the Twin Towers fell, but I don’t remember bowing down to pray towards them every day.  They were a workplace for thousands, a frequent backdrop in movies, a symbol of American achievement, a great landmark.  But what they weren’t was some sort of national symbol of Americanism…until they were attacked.  And that, I think, is the chief difference between those leading the opposition to Park 51 and those who remember that this is America.  The former view themselves either as the answer to or the aspirational heirs of a Saudi or Iranian-style theocracy, and all Muslims worldwide as the unfair beneficiaries thereof. 

The history of the opposition, as well as the effort to consecrate an abandoned Burlington Coat Factory as part of Ground Zero makes a lot more sense if thought of in this light.  All Muslims, in this view, are agents of an oppressive theocracy who get to dictate how others behave, and all they do is wander around in blankets and drill for oil.  The problem isn’t really that Muslims allegedly get to oppress others, it’s that red-blooded American patriots get all sorts of guff when they try to pull the same shit.  And Americans are Americans, people, so we have to assume they’re better than Muslims.

 

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Posted by Jesse Taylor on 08:49 PM • (89) Comments

Well, perhaps YOU didn’t bow down to pray towards them everyday…

Comment #1: alysia  on  08/22  at  08:59 PM

alysia, I always did wonder what Real Murkins did in their MegaChurches.

Comment #2: Atheist, A Feminist  on  08/22  at  09:01 PM

I was down in Atlanta last weekend, and my friends who live there took me to their favorite halal market to get lamb. The market was also selling carne asada and other (non-pork) foods to appeal to local Latino consumers and had a few other signs in Spanish. That hybridity is my motherfucking America.

The Tea Crackers protesting the Park 51 project and whatever the hell else they’re pissed off about represent the 21st Century incarnation of the Dixiecrats and the Southern Strategy. They are, quite simply, terrible Americans and horrible humans.

Comment #3: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  08/22  at  09:07 PM

Well they destroyed those building and not other buildings so the towers had some significance to the terrorists. I would think they signified the heart of america or whatever you call it to the terrorists. Like you could easily respond but those weren’t really the heart of the country and they only became central to a lot of people after they were destroyed but that’s kind of missing the point. Unless they just couldn’t think of a new target or they just picked them because towers are easier to destroy with a plane than relatively low lying pentagon style buildings. That would mean the towers had no significance to the terrorists. But if they did making an effort to point out what the symbolic heart of islam is can’t really be faulted.

not opposed to the thing, just saying.

Its kind of a stupid analogy because they’re pretending like there isn’t a whole load of Muslims and mosques in new york already.

Comment #4: pharmakos  on  08/22  at  09:17 PM

Yes. Look, I don’t know what the towers meant to all these people who probably never even visited New York City. But to me? They were a quick way to see what direction I was facing, even though my sense of direction is awful. Not sacred. Any other tall, recognizable building worked just as well.

The loss of life was terrible. The attack was horrifying. That had nothing to do with the damn building, which was a freaking office building. With shopping.

Comment #5: Av0gadro  on  08/22  at  09:20 PM

pharmakos, I suspect to the terrorists, the represented the excesses of capitalism. Which is pretty accurate, just not worthy of hatred.

Comment #6: Av0gadro  on  08/22  at  09:22 PM

And cracker america gurgles it’s opinion.

Comment #7: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  08/22  at  09:29 PM

I suspect to the terrorists, the represented the excesses of capitalism. Which is pretty accurate, just not worthy of hatred.

I think that’s worthy of some strong emotions like anger but yeah killing lots of people wasn’t a good response

It would be a better metaphor if they tried to identify the heart of Al Qaeda and argued that they should be able to build malls next to it after the army blows it up. And that kind of happened but they picked Baghdad as the heart of Al Qaeda which obviously turned out to be the wrong place.

Comment #8: pharmakos  on  08/22  at  09:35 PM

They were called the World Trade Center. I think there was some sense that they represented not just America but the entire Western world and its way of life, which is what the terrorists are really against. The US just happens to be the biggest and loudest proponent of that way of life.

That this whole debate is even occurring is disgusting. It’s enough to make you wish Congress would hurry up and get back in session so these brainless angerbots and their media sycophants would have some new shiny object to babble about.

Comment #9: sophronia  on  08/22  at  09:37 PM

You know how many buildings are called World Trade Centers?  I don’t, but there seems to be one in nearly every metro…

But still that metaphor is pretty weird.  Blow up most sacred to a religion, build church to help refugees.  As far as I know, there aren’t any refugees from the WTC disaster; there are already mosques in the area; and there’s never been a law against mosques or churches that could stand constitutional challenges in the US (not to say no one has tried, but our highest law says you can’t stop someone from building a damn church!

I think the mere fact that there isn’t any law, let alone their highest, in Saudi Arabia allowing for other faiths and churches kinda blows that metaphor out of the water.

Comment #10: Crissa  on  08/22  at  09:47 PM

Oh, I can definitely see the similarities. I realize it was a long time ago, but like McCarthy, I’m also dead sure that the WTC was a 50-foot-high piece of rock where nobody works, is the holiest site in all of American history, is a place of annual pilgrimage for millions of devout Americans, and is located in a city where non-Americans are forbidden entry under threat of deportation.

Wait. What?

Comment #11: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  08/22  at  09:52 PM

meanwhile, all over fly-over country, people who normally refer to “Jew York City” are mad about a group of people who actually live there, who actually went through the terror that day, who have the nerve to build a community center in their community…

Comment #12: Woodrowfan  on  08/22  at  09:59 PM

John, the terrorist were obviously evil fucks. This doesn’t mean we should ostracize moderate American Muslims, or give up on our American principles, like freedom of religion, because a bunch of wingnuts need someone to target their hate at. It is Newt and the guy in this article that are recommending we look to the Saudis for how to treat religious minorities, not liberals.

Comment #13: alysia  on  08/22  at  10:03 PM

The difference between tea crackers like mckay and stormfronters like stickrule is….nothing.

Comment #14: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  08/22  at  10:05 PM

IIRC the towers were seen as a rather ugly incarnation of 70s-style “superblock” architecture before they were destroyed. They looked cool in the skyline, but that was about it. I love the buildings from the 20s, 30s, and 40s a lot more, they have much more style (I esp. like the Chrysler Building).

Comment #15: Ben D.  on  08/22  at  10:07 PM

I have a theory as to why they attacked them—aside from the fact they failed in their first attempt and Al Qaeda seems to have a thing for revisiting targets.

The terrorists took the name a little too literally. They thought because it was called the “World Trade Center”, they thought by attacking them it would stop world trade. I didn’t used to think they were this dumb, but after their half-baked attempts of the past 5 years it makes you wonder.

Comment #16: Ben D.  on  08/22  at  10:12 PM

“I think the mere fact that there isn’t any law, let alone their highest, in Saudi Arabia allowing for other faiths and churches kinda blows that metaphor out of the water.”

Very true, and as a sovereign nation with a completely different political system the Saudis can legally prevent any other religion except Islam.

This is what bugs me about the people who treat the “Anti-Ground Zero Mosque” as a real genuine issue.  (BTW, I’ve seen nothing to indicate that most of the “support”, at least from official Reichwing channels is anything more than a cynical ploy to get out the vote.)  We Americans live in a country that had religious tolerance built into its DNA.  We are not legally allowed to discriminate against Islam or any other religion.  OTOH, Saudi Arabia is some sort of monarchy/oligarchy that is completely based around Islam, which is unsurprising for a country that is the steward for the single most holy site in all of Islam.

So the comparison is beyond bogus.

However, it is interesting to me to hear those idiots say such bullshit, because it seems to me we get a (frightening) glimpse into the desires of those who are True Believers against the Muslim recreation center.  They Are Jealous.  They Want A Christian Theocracy.  They Envy Saudi Arabia and other countries that have official state religions. 

If they could change the Constitution to suit their desires, they’d remove Freedom of Religion and bring back the 3/5ths Clause.  They’d eliminate Women’s Suffrage and bring back Prohibition.  They’d eliminate Freedom of Speech and bring back legal slavery.

This whole issue has been like lifting up a rock and finally seeing all the stuff living in the dark underneath…

Comment #17: MikeEss  on  08/22  at  10:16 PM

Very true, and as a sovereign nation with a completely different political system the Saudis can legally prevent any other religion except Islam.

Not to mention, if they’re upset that Saudi Arabia doesn’t allow churches or synagogues or Hindu temples, they should be campaigning for religious freedom the world over (a noble thing to do, the House of Saud are bunch of medieval thugs and anyone who thinks we should follow their moral example can go fuck themselves), not trying to end it here!

Comment #18: Ben D.  on  08/22  at  10:18 PM

This whole issue has been like lifting up a rock and finally seeing all the stuff living in the dark underneath…

Oh come on, they come out of the closet a lot. Its just a different issue with a different lunatic most of the time. Its like they are on rotation so people won’t realize its the same act with a different performer and lyrics.

Comment #19: pharmakos  on  08/22  at  10:25 PM

“I like Islam and think they should build the mosque.  Don’t compare me to McCay.”

Yeah, Jeff, you can’t compare “Stick Rule” to JohnMckay!  They’re totally different!

For example, Stick Rule wants all immigrants to leave and let him live in his gated Whiteopia without the fear that he will ever be forced to hear a phone menu listing Spanish as a choice.  But JohnMckay thinks AZ1070 was the greatest piece of legislation in the last 50-years.  See?  Totally different.

Stick Rule is a racist.  But John Mckay just irrationally hates other people who aren’t exactly like him.  Again, totally different.

And by comparing them, you’ve hurt their feelings.  This sort of thing is why we can’t have good trolls around here…

Comment #20: MikeEss  on  08/22  at  10:27 PM

“Oh come on, they come out of the closet a lot. Its just a different issue with a different lunatic most of the time.”

The last two years has been like lifting up a new rock every few days.  And the sad thing is I’m not really sure we’ve even seen more than a quarter of the hate and fear they’ve got in ‘em…

Comment #21: MikeEss  on  08/22  at  10:33 PM

Stick Rule is a racist.  But John Mckay just irrationally hates other people who aren’t exactly like him.  Again, totally different.

Cracker America be Cracker America…a horrible set of people and a terrible place to be.

Comment #22: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  08/22  at  10:34 PM

“Cracker America be Cracker America…a horrible set of people and a terrible place to be.”

...which needs to be shouted from the mountain tops until it finally penetrates their very thick skulls…

...I know, I know, I’m not holding my breath for that to happen either…

Comment #23: MikeEss  on  08/22  at  10:39 PM

You know there is a fair chance they are the same person. Apparently its really easy, but I don’t know how, to change your name which is why knute kept popping up again and again after getting banned. I wouldn’t be surprised if it the same nutcase sockpuppeting. I think Mike explained it in the thread where Amanda posted some interview from netroots and knute got peculiarly almost homoerotic.

Comment #24: pharmakos  on  08/22  at  10:43 PM

...I know, I know, I’m not holding my breath for that to happen either…

Nor I. But I keep shouting.  The politics of white resentment are the most ridiculous thing ever…in the same way that white racial identity is one of the most repulsive and oppressive things humanity has ever produced.

Comment #25: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  08/22  at  10:47 PM

And anti-Muslim sentiment, at least in the west, mixes them both. That’s why it’s so toxic.

This is despite the fact that there are many white Muslims, not just converts but in their native cultures (Bosnians, Albanians, a minority in Bulgaria, the Tartars in Russia and the Iranians). But the right wing in the west sees them as a brown monolith as does some of the left (“they just want to bomb ‘brown people’) for some reason.

Comment #26: Ben D.  on  08/22  at  10:54 PM

I went to a rally this morning on the block where Park51 is.  It was a counter-rally, actually, in opposition to the anti-mosque rally that happened about a block away.  After a while I drifted over to the teabagger rally out of morbid curiosity.  Amazing, really.  I listened to a speech by a woman whom I don’t believe ever managed to mention the mosque itself but just kept repeating that “I’m an American,” “We’re not going to take this anymore,” and “Don’t listen to anyone who tells you you’re racist or stupid or blahblahblah.”  It was really depressing the level of cheering she got for saying ... nothing, really.  Vague references to the New York Times, the Upper West Side, America not being “sharia-compliant,” and not much else.  If I had just arrived from Mars, I would’ve been completely at a loss to explain just what they were rallying for/against. 

I eagerly await the end of this particular wave of nativist insanity.

Comment #27: jTuba  on  08/22  at  10:57 PM

If we were smart, we would point out that conservatives, with their complaining about mosques in California, Tennessee, Kentucky, (Kentucky of course being the birth site of the WTC before it went to college in NY and was martyred) are just creating great filler for al qaeda’s next recruitment video.

The Democratic Party has people on staff, don’t they?

Comment #28: bay of arizona  on  08/22  at  10:58 PM

And the racial ignorance can play itself out in ways that would be almost funny if the results weren’t so toxic—like the teabaggers thinking that the Egyptian Coptic Christians (a minority that HAS been truly persecuted at the hands of a Muslim majority) to protest the mosque were Muslims coming to support it!

Likewise if a Bosnian had showed up in the teabagger crowd they wouldn’t have given him or her a second look. *facepalm*

Comment #29: Ben D.  on  08/22  at  10:58 PM

I would’ve been completely at a loss to explain just what they were rallying for/against. 

So kind of like all the tea party rallies. I think the only reason they exist is the sense of community the participants get from them. Its like in the post somewhere below about the radicalizing effect of Dr. Laura. Those shows can only exist because so many conservatives live in bubbles. Going to a rally must be like cocaine to them. Or more accurately maybe ecstasy or as it used to be called empathy.

Comment #30: pharmakos  on  08/22  at  11:04 PM

I think John and stick are a fascinating couple. They each think of the other as abhorrent: John because stick is fairly openly racist, and stick because John is dumb. Stick seems to be under the impression that most Americans are like him, but most racist people are like John and totally not racist, but…

Its like John thinks that stick doesn’t exist, and stick is John’s subconscious or something.

Comment #31: alysia  on  08/22  at  11:08 PM

If they are different people I would like to think of them as Bert and Ernie. Based on what alysia said John is Ernie and Stick is Bert

Comment #32: pharmakos  on  08/22  at  11:31 PM

I think they are more like big bird and mr snuffleupagus.

Comment #33: alysia  on  08/22  at  11:54 PM

Oh no! my shallow knowledge ends at Bert and Ernie and I don’t remember snufflepagus at all

Comment #34: pharmakos  on  08/23  at  12:17 AM

Al Queda attacked the USA’s capitalist-corporations –as represented by the WTC– which OWN and control our Government -represented by the Capitol Building- which controls the US Military –represented by the Pentagon– which was and still is used to exploit and terrorize the Mid East for more than half a century, for OIL.

It is quite straight-forward; and although the terrorists were religious maniacs, the bombings weren’t religious based, any more than the car bombs in Iraq are in defense of, or as a way to expand Islam.  They are and were political-economic protests.

Bush-Cheney illustrated the point Al Queda made by invading Iraq FOR IT’S OIL AND NOTHING ELSE, using the 9/11 attacks as an dirty, lying excuse.

Comment #35: Kwillow  on  08/23  at  12:21 AM

Snuffleupagus was added in ‘later’ in Seseme street, for a long time as a character only Big Bird encountered.  Now he’s pretty common.  But c’mon, the show is how many decades old?  I wouldn’t expect many people to know all the characters at any specific time ^-^

Comment #36: Crissa  on  08/23  at  12:23 AM

snuffleupagus was big birds imaginary friend. He was like a furry elephant thing. Shame on you, pharmakos.

Comment #37: alysia  on  08/23  at  12:23 AM

I looked up the wikipedia entry. I am suitably ashamed.

Comment #38: pharmakos  on  08/23  at  12:31 AM

the bombings weren’t religious based

Oh horseshit.

Latin America has been screwed longer and harder than the Middle East by the United States (which wasn’t even involved heavily in the Middle East until the ‘50s), yet I’ve never heard of, say, Sandinistas hijacking airliners and ramming them into buildings. Same thing with Sub-Sahara Africa and Europe. Religion had plenty to do with it. Not in the way the teabaggers think it did, but it still did.

Comment #39: Ben D.  on  08/23  at  12:37 AM

And the vast majority of the bombings in Iraq were Muslims of one sect bombing Muslims of another sect, this far outnumbered bombings aimed at American soldiers. Remember the bombing of the Al-Askari Mosque, for example?

Religion is a very toxic force multiplier.

Comment #40: Ben D.  on  08/23  at  12:40 AM

I think the ruling out of economic factors and putting it all on religion pisses off a lot of people. I know it does me. Maybe its a catalyst but I don’t think it would add up to much without the background of economic exploitation. The whole Israel thing probably doesn’t help much as well.

Comment #41: pharmakos  on  08/23  at  12:57 AM

Actually, there have been hijackings re South/Middle Americas vs US Imperialism - and the US has and does harbor some of the terrorists.

The US did and still does answer ‘we can’t’ to requests to surrender people in the US (citizens or not) to foreign courts.

Strangely, that was the same answer that Afghanistan gave the US in September of 2001.  They even said they would invite the US in, and do whatever they could in aid, even allow the US to participate in a court system there.

Funny, we didn’t accept that answer.

Comment #42: Crissa  on  08/23  at  12:58 AM

Now, stick, sweetiepie, I never said you hated blacks and muslims, I said you were racist and mentioned nothing of towards whom.

Comment #43: alysia  on  08/23  at  01:33 AM

The average IQ is 100. That’s the middle of the bell curve. If the american average is less than 100 that means Americans are intellectually sub-normal. Which seems weird since the norms are built around Americans

Comment #44: pharmakos  on  08/23  at  01:47 AM

You have to wonder about people who work themselves into hysterics about the Evil Terrorists what Terrorises at Midnight, and then publicly gather themselves into one crowded area surrounded by high buildings.  They either have never considered what one Evil Terrorists what Terrorises at Midnight might do with a sniper’s rifle, or at some level realise their hysterical panty-wetting is largely bullshit.

Comment #45: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  08/23  at  01:53 AM

I used to love Snuffleupagus, and his tangential appearance is the only thing about this thread that isn’t depressing.

Comment #46: alicia-logic  on  08/23  at  02:06 AM

Yes, alicia-logic, but somebody above said he was imaginary, and that’s depressing too.  The whole joke about Snuffy in his first several years on the show was that, thanks to a combination of his timidity and frustrating coincidences, nobody else ever saw him but Bird; that was ended, I’ve been told, when it was suggested that kids were receiving the message that adults would not believe them if they reported out-of-the-ordinary experiences such as sexual abuse. So people who side with the hegemonic discourse and deny the minority experience (visions of Snuffy) scare me.

Comment #47: Josh  on  08/23  at  02:32 AM

Snuffy encouraged child molestars!?!?!

You, sir, have broken my heart.

Comment #48: alysia  on  08/23  at  02:33 AM

Molestars? Pole stars? Star-nosed moles?

What frightens me is the thought that someone thinks a vacant store is the equivalent of the Kaaba, which is not only a shrine venerated by a billion or so humans, but which might also house one hell of a big meteorite, something interesting in its own respect.

It could be an alien!

Comment #49: bad Jim  on  08/23  at  04:53 AM

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.  Population of Saudi Arabia=c.30 million.  Number of Muslims in the world=c.1.6 billion.  It could not even be vaguely said that Saudi Arabia represents “Muslims”, or that it is representative of the Muslim world.

If you want a country even vaguely analogous to the US on the Muslim side of things, you could look at, say, Indonesia - population of c.230 million, mostly Muslim, religious freedom theoretically enshrined in the constitution, 8.7% of the population is Christian - and guess what, churches all over the place!

Now, granted, the large majority of the WTC destroyers were Saudi.  Remind me again why the invaded countries were Afghanistan and Iraq?

Comment #50: Katherine  on  08/23  at  05:00 AM

Stick Rule writes dismissively of others’ low IQ in the same three-paragraph post where he manages to misspell “definitely” not once but twice. Gotta love him/her just for the amusement value.

Comment #51: Dan2108  on  08/23  at  05:41 AM

They were a workplace for thousands, a frequent backdrop in movies, a symbol of American achievement, a great landmark.  But what they weren’t was some sort of national symbol of Americanism…until they were attacked.

If I had to guess, I bet prior to September 11, 2001, more than 75% of Americans probably didn’t even have a mental picture of what the World Trade Center looked like.

When constructed in the early 1970s, the buildings were widely panned as the symbol of all that was wrong with modernist architecture.  Aesthetically, I don’t think it’s possible to design a 110 story building that is any more unimaginative and boring than the World Trade Center.

Prior to designing the World Trade Center, architect Minoru Yamasaki’s most well-known project was the Pruitt-Igoe federally-subsidized housing complex that opened in 1955 in St. Louis.  This project wound up being such a huge fucking disaster that the 33 buildings in the complex began being systematically imploded one by one in the early 1970s, less than 20 years after the final hideous eleven story building was completed.  It’s widely regarded as one of the worst post-WWII urban housing projects in America, and it made Chicago’s Cabrini-Green seem almost successful in comparison.  Architectural historian Charles Jencks claimed that the implosion of the first Pruitt-Igoe building on March 16, 1972 represented the “day modern architecture died.”

The notion that America had any sort of reverence for the WTC towers before they were destroyed is some serious revisionist bullshit.  In comparison to the more ornate Empire State Building and Chrysler Building, both designed in vibrant art deco style, the twin towers of the WTC were painfully bland.  If 9/11 had never happened and plans were submitted in 2010 to replace the twin towers with something more awe-inspiring and architecturally daring, I doubt there would be much complaining that deconstructing the towers would be robbing the city of an architectural gem.

Comment #52: DTGslu2K  on  08/23  at  06:05 AM

Well they destroyed those building and not other buildings so the towers had some significance to the terrorists. I would think they signified the heart of america or whatever you call it to the terrorists.

Whether this was their intended message or not, the interpretation that seemed the most plausible to me was that the WTC epitomized the financial heart of America’s capitalism.  The Pentagon was the heart of the American military machine.  And though United 93 failed to reach its final target, it’s generally believed that it was headed for either the White House or the U.S. Capitol building, representing the heart of America’s government.

I sometimes wonder how different things might have been had the last plane succeeded in hitting the White House (if indeed that was the target).  Bush wasn’t there, but the Cheneys and other White House staff that were present were quickly moved to the secure hidden bunker after the Pentagon was struck.  And yes, there really is a secret hidden bunker at the White House.  The current East Wing building was built in 1942 to conceal the construction of a secure bunker that is now known as the Presidential Emergency Operations Center, commissioned by FDR during WWII.  It is very likely the most secure facility on earth, strong enough to withstand a direct strike from a nuclear-armed ICBM.

Comment #53: DTGslu2K  on  08/23  at  06:40 AM

You know how many buildings are called World Trade Centers?  I don’t, but there seems to be one in nearly every metro…

According to Wikipedia, there are 279 buildings/complexes named “World Trade Center” globally, but it only lists 8 of the World trade Centers in the United States (though the list is marked “incomplete”).

Comment #54: DTGslu2K  on  08/23  at  06:49 AM

Dumber-than-a-stick’s seeming worship of IQ is disturbingly racist as well- the populations where IQ is “lower” are often in areas with high minority populations, not because minorities are “less intelligent” but because many IQ tests are biased towards certain types of education and/ or experience. Steven Jay Gould’s book The Mismeasure of Man was a real eye-opener for me about how these kinds of false measurements were used to encourage racist belief (along with his withering takedown of The Bell Curve).

In short, IQ is oftentimes a pretty shitty determination of intelligence or potential overall. It’s been helpful to me in getting two of my children into the honors/ gifted programs they needed to be in in order to thrive, and sadly will likely be a major factor in my other child’s future eligibility for Social Security benefits due to her disability. (Just in case, you know, the fact she has Down syndrome isn’t enough. Bloody government paperwork sometimes.) Allegedly I’m in the 140’s, but I’m 37 and working at Walmart, and rarely add anything of substance to these blogs because I feel woefully outranked in knowledge.  I love that I am learning a lot more about these issues by coming here, following links, and reading varied arguments however.

I know I’m preaching to the choir here, but I do have to wonder if My-Little-Stick-Doesn’t-Work realizes that his racist is evident even in his use of determination of intelligence.

Comment #55: TheRealistMom  on  08/23  at  07:30 AM

That would be racism, not racist in the last line. Posting at 3:30am has its risks.

Comment #56: TheRealistMom  on  08/23  at  07:31 AM

OK, Mr. Snuffleupagus was there fromthe beginning.  After about a decade, the creators of Sesame Street began to have funny feelings about it.  The joke had gone on too long for them, and the idea that children are never believed—even when they tell the truth over a long time—led them to think of child abuse victims and decide to “out” Snuffy.

Most children didn’t watch Sesame Street that long and didn’t have the same appreciation for how long the joke had gone on, but Sesame Street has always had Ph.d.s examining it and how it affects kids.

Snuffy didn’t inspire child molestors—the concept that children should never be believed if the truth is inconvenient did.

Topic?

Al Qaeda are Wahibbists.  Cordoba House is Sufi.  Al Qaeda hates Sufis as much as Americans.  They are infidels.  In fact, Al Qaeda just attacked a mosque in Pakistan during services and killed 41 fellow Muslims. 

But they were Sufi!

Wahabbists are a small sect of Sunnis.  It’s like as if our Dominionists really got into the hate and terrorism game…

As for the WTC itself, Bin Laden thought that if he could knock down that giant symbol of capitalism and Western might, the US would split into several different countries like the Soviet Union did. 

I laughed at the idea at the time.  We were one NATION, not a union of countries like the EU or forced together at gunpoint like the USSR.  States would never rise against each other again…

Turns out bin Laden was right.  All it took was a little terrorism—and fuck it all, the planes killed 3000 people and knocked down some buildings—was all it took to have most Americans willing to give up their Constitutional freedoms, demand secession if they didn’t like the results of legal rulings or democratic elections, and start hating on anyone who looks ‘different’ from the typical Domnionist.

What a fragile thing our shining city on a hill was.

Comment #57: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/23  at  08:50 AM

The creepy cult of 9/11 was always proto-fascist, and now we’re simply seeing the unfolding of that potential.

The deliberate fanning of anti-Muslim sentiment by conservative politicians is not only despicable in itself, it’s seriously counter to the national interests of the US. Why do they hate America?

Comment #58: Steve LaBonne  on  08/23  at  09:46 AM

#64

The deliberate fanning of anti-Muslim sentiment by conservative politicians is not only despicable in itself, it’s seriously counter to the national interests of the US.

Yes. This is the same thing that keeps occurring to me as I read about the anti-Hispanic sentiment that’s become so popular lately. It’s a terrible irony that these people who obviously feel on a deep level, that they are defending their “100% American” or “Real American” tribe from interlopers, actually are pretty bad for America. They are like a terrible recurring allergy of the USA.

Comment #59: atheist  on  08/23  at  10:18 AM

I’m afraid that guy’s analogy is much more apt than you give him credit for, Jessie.  The WTC was located on Wall Street and was the spiritual heart of America just as Mecca would be the spiritual heart of Islam.  America, now, in the 21st century, worships capitalism.  The WTC was the center of America’s capitalist soul.  It was not chosen just because it was big.

Okay, I just checked and others have said this, so I am done.

Comment #60: DBK  on  08/23  at  10:51 AM

Because if others say so, then it must be true. Like for instance, others say that Feng Shui coins will make you rich. Clearly, Feng Shui coins are where its at.

Comment #61: atheist  on  08/23  at  11:23 AM

The deliberate fanning of anti-Muslim sentiment by conservative politicians is not only despicable in itself, it’s seriously counter to the national interests of the US.

Even more, the protests against a Sufi cultural center is exactly what Al Qaeda and the Wahabbi jihadists want.

They hate those peace-loving, poetry-writing, wine-drinking infidels.  I’m sure they get a huge kick out of seeing their enemies hate on each other.  Just another 9/11 bonus to them.

Comment #62: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/23  at  11:27 AM

I think a lot of the opposition to Park51 comes from people who only associate New York with liberal elites and 9/11. They think I, a New Yorker, get up at 9:11, get into my 9/11 and 9/11 to 9/11, perhaps stopping for a cup of 9/11 at 9/11bucks*. Thus the disconnect between people in NY and people in the rest of the country: the city keeps happening all around, and someone who lives here can’t mope and hide for ten years. You can’t, unless you’re going to move entirely, say “I can no longer go to lower Manhattan, terrorism happened there.” It’s a lot easier to sit around somewhere else—Nebraska or San Francisco or Portland or wherever, where you never experienced NY happening in the first place—and say “nothing should happen in lower Manhattan, terrorism happened there.”

*Coincidentally, the last Starbucks I went to is across the street from the WTC site.

The loss of life was terrible. The attack was horrifying. That had nothing to do with the damn building, which was a freaking office building. With shopping.
Comment 6—Av0gadro

I just wanted a muffin from Mrs. Field’s, but no, I have to go out on Vesey St because a plane hit the building….

Comment #63: Hershele Ostropoler  on  08/23  at  11:37 AM

Pharmakos, the Israel-Palestine conflict has nothing to do with 9/11. The official Al-Qaeda reason for 9/11 has always been that it was because of American presence in Saudi Arabia, in the county of the holy cities of Mecca and Medica, was the reason 9/11 occurred. Economics didn’t play much of a role either because Osama Bin Laden is loaded. Most of the foot soliders in 9/11 were well-off to. It was literally years after 9/11 that Al-Qaeda mentioned Israel at all, least in connection with 9/11.

  Katherine, Afghanistan was invaded because thats where Al-Qaeda leadership was becuase the Taliban were giving them a place to hang out and plan. Any adminstration would have targeted Afghanistan after 9/11 because thats where the people we wanted were. Bush screwed up how Afghanistan was handled because he wanted to get to Iraq but invading Afghanistan was not a wrong target after 9/11.

Comment #64: Lee  on  08/23  at  12:03 PM

When you’re a terrorist working with semi-trained pilots, your choice of big targets is pretty limited. IIRC, they also thought that the towers would fall sideways instead of coming straight down, which would have wrought havoc on most of the financial district.

As a former new yorker, it makes perfect sense to me that the same people who despise new york in general would be able to sanctify the memory of the twin towers. They were, as other people have noted, pretty much the most anti-New York structures in the city, far better suited (even with the subways) for some other city center, preferably a car-centric one with no street life. They even didn’t smell like NYC—when you were in the shopping concourses, the odor of disinfectant cleanser from the PATH station was pervasive.

Comment #65: paul  on  08/23  at  12:24 PM

#70

Katherine, Afghanistan was invaded because thats where Al-Qaeda leadership was becuase the Taliban were giving them a place to hang out and plan. Any adminstration would have targeted Afghanistan after 9/11 because thats where the people we wanted were. Bush screwed up how Afghanistan was handled because he wanted to get to Iraq but invading Afghanistan was not a wrong target after 9/11.

While you’re probably right that invading Afghanistan was what Gore would have done just as Bush actually did, I can’t agree that invading, and especially occupying, Afghanistan, was the right thing to do. We killed thousands of innocent Afghans in the air war. We destroyed a government which, while morally disgusting and despised by the majority of Afghans, was the only thing keeping order.

Comment #66: atheist  on  08/23  at  12:52 PM

Pharmakos, the Israel-Palestine conflict has nothing to do with 9/11

I am aware of what his stated motivations were. I was badly trying to make the point that to a lot of people once you have religion in there as a motive its like other possible motivations cease to count and get ignored. That comes up a lot when people talk about Israel and the Palestinians. Sometimes it seems like they are at each other because Muslims hate Jews and Jews hate Muslims. Considering the disparities in Saudi and the history of relations with the US and I can’t help but feel that while the get off our lawn or mecca I guess was some people’s motivation it probably wasn’t everyone’s

Comment #67: pharmakos  on  08/23  at  01:00 PM

Um, atheist (#67), was that a reply to me?  Because all I meant was that I was repeating things, so I didn’t want to go over the same ground again, not that it was true because others had said it.

Comment #68: DBK  on  08/23  at  01:10 PM

Katherine, Afghanistan was invaded because thats where Al-Qaeda leadership was becuase the Taliban were giving them a place to hang out and plan. Any adminstration would have targeted Afghanistan after 9/11 because thats where the people we wanted were. Bush screwed up how Afghanistan was handled because he wanted to get to Iraq but invading Afghanistan was not a wrong target after 9/11.

Yes Lee, thank you - I’m aware of that.  I was asking a rhetorical question in the hopes of pointing out the disconnect between the nationality of the 9/11 bombers and the nation(s) that ended up being invaded, especially since all the rightwing can talk about now is Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia. I

Comment #69: Katherine  on  08/23  at  01:16 PM

“They think I, a New Yorker, get up at 9:11, get into my 9/11 and 9/11 to 9/11, perhaps stopping for a cup of 9/11 at 9/11bucks*.”

That just fucking cracked me up and now all my co-workers are staring at me.

Comment #70: Mark  on  08/23  at  02:31 PM

Paul @ #71:  The World Trade Center was the brain-child of David Rockefeller, then President (and CEO?) of the Chase Manhattan Bank. They were very similar to office buildings that Governor Nelson A. Rockefeller built in Albany.  In fact, the state office buildings are even more sterile and bland and they stick up like fingers against the Albany area skyline (which really is quite flat). They do not encourage street traffic. Many of the people who work in those buildings just drive into the underground garage.

The only thing about the Twin Towers that I liked was the observation deck—especially on the summer solstice when you could see sunset at 8:30 p.m. or so. Spectacular view.

Comment #71: PurpleGirl  on  08/23  at  03:24 PM

I just recently watched “Man On Wire,” which was thoroughly enjoyable. Petit’s high-wire feat, coming so soon after the towers were constructed, seemed to make some people appreciate them because they saw them in a new light, in terms of possibility. They certainly weren’t acclaimed before that (according to the documentary). But that feeling seemed to be forgotton over the years. It’s funny, Petit’s breathless description of what the towers inspired in him, his compulsion to walk a wire between them, comes pretty close to what the wingnuts seem to expect everyone to feel about them after the fact. But he’s, you know, French, and an artist, so doesn’t really fit their needs.

I give big props to the movie for not referencing 9/11 at all. It didn’t need to.

Comment #72: Shiny  on  08/23  at  03:49 PM

Katherine, sorry about that. I misread your post.

Comment #73: Lee  on  08/23  at  04:00 PM

My company has been hosting foreign nationals (from a non-Muslim country) as part of a project we are doing in their country, and this of course triggered a need to have a “national security briefing” for the employees who might be working with the foreign nationals directly or indirectly.

I wasn’t one of them, but my office mate was.  When he got back from the meeting he was carrying the customary goodie bag that one usually gets at these sorts of meetings.  Among the standard eagle-and-flag faire was a mousepad picturing the image of the burning twin towers (with another eagle for good measure).

This happened weeks ago but I am still thinking about it.  I will of course acknowledge that the terrorism that resulted in the collapse of the twin towers was awful, and we as a country to protect ourselves against future attempts to do that sort of shit.  But in context?  This was a meeting about a not-middle-eastern, economically prosperous and relatively friendly country.  These are people who have never bombed us and know pretty damn well it would not be in their best interest to do so.  Obviously it’s never a good idea to let the foreign national in the building read those sensitive documents you’ve got on your desk, but juxtaposing that image with 9/11 isn’t perhaps the best message.  I think it just speaks to stupid, directionless paranoia.

Whether it’s muslim community centers or corporate espionage, the message seems to have become: “Remember 9/11 because….stuff.  *Eagle.*”

Comment #74: Caelan Aegana  on  08/23  at  04:04 PM

The difference between that analogy and real life being that there is a substantial community of people of Muslim faith living in New York City.

IIRC, the Kaaba is in Saudi Arabia, a theocracy which has neither a sizeable Christian population, nor freedom of religion as one of the proud defining points of their society. So a mosque here is nowhere near equivalent to a church there. (And the high prioritization of wanting Muslims to convert to Christianity is rather uniformly a conservative Christian viewpoint, whereas the prioritization of Muslims having freedom of religion is NOT solely a conservative Muslim viewpoint but a highly American one, what with freedom of religion for everyone having snagged Numero Uno on the Bill of Rights and all.)

Also, anyone who compares a conglomerate of assorted business suites (even a tall, architecturally impressive one) to the holiest site of a religious faith needs some serious application of both a clue-by-four and a sensitivity stick. Capitalism is not a religion.

Comment #75: Kyra  on  08/23  at  04:06 PM

Capitalism is not a religion.

Are you sure about that?  Recent evidence seems to suggest that it is.

Just have to link this.

Comment #76: libdevil  on  08/23  at  04:28 PM

The deliberate fanning of anti-Muslim sentiment by conservative politicians is not only despicable in itself, it’s seriously counter to the national interests of the US. Why do they hate America?

Just to be clear up front, I generally can’t stand Joe Scarborough.  That said, this morning I caught a few minutes of Morning Joke, and Scarborough’s opinion on this phony controversy was spot on, and he said, “Nevermind the domestic problems all of this Muslim hate is causing; what message does this send to the Muslim world whose hearts and minds we are supposedly trying to win over?”  He took it a bit further and essentially said that the rightwing bleating over Park51 was potentially creating a national security issue for us.  And he tore apart Newt Gingrich for making the completely offensive comparison between Muslims and Nazis.

I was pretty surprised, because Morning Joke tends to piss me off to no end whenever I catch a few minutes of it, but Scarborough was on a roll this morning, and I imagine he’s gonna be getting called RINO by Limbaugh and the Fox idiots in the next 24 hours.

Comment #77: DTGslu2K  on  08/23  at  04:38 PM

PurpleGirl:

The Albany comparison makes a lot of sense. As a tourist I enjoyed the state office building complex, but it was in a context of not even imagining that Albany had a downtown.

Comment #78: paul  on  08/23  at  04:48 PM

libdevil at 82: Generally, many people seem to treat economic beliefs like they treat religious beleifs and accept their economic beliefs without question. This is a problem with the right especially since the right contains more religious people than the left and are more susceptible to faith based beliefs. Thats why we get people who believe that the free market is always right even when its demonstratibly not, like in health care. The few people on the Left that still believed in central planning and communes are the closest leftist equivalent of this.

Murrow Fan at 83: Joe Scarborough, for all his faults, is not an idiot. He is also a conservative on a network that kind of leans left and he knows that many of his listeners are not going to be susceptible to culture war nonsense. Combined this leads him to criticizing conservatives when they are acting particularly moronic.

Comment #79: Lee  on  08/23  at  05:12 PM

It was the choice of the WTC towers as targets that instantly convinced me that the 9/11 attacks were planned and carried out by foreigners.  Only a non-American would have thought of the WTC as a symbol of the US.  Now that it’s gone many of us think of it that way but when it was still standing it was just two large office buildings to us.

So the 9/11 attackers have succeeded in changing American ideas to be more like theirs, or to be more exact, in changing the ideas of the most suggestible Americans to be more like theirs.

Comment #80: Nutella  on  08/23  at  06:04 PM

@Nutella—at best the WTC towers were a symbol of New York, and the US as a whole.  Homer Simpson has a whole episode that climaxes with him running up and down the towers trying to find a bathroom. 

NY = US wasn’t a meme until 9/11, and even now most real ‘Murkans don’t really think of NY as Real America (tm).

Comment #81: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  08/23  at  06:19 PM

To all fearmongering religious bigots who blame an entire religion for the actions for a few crazy apostates (McKay, try the dictionary) of that religion:  You’re full of ignorance and hate and don’t have a real say among people who aren’t fearmongreing religious bigots, not here or anywhere that counts. Your old bigoted America is dying, and the real and true America is rising, the truly democratic and courageous one. Buh-bye.

Comment #82: News Nag  on  08/24  at  11:17 PM

Personally, I think the Twin Towers were chosen as target predominantly because they were the biggest and tallst buildings in the U.S., would make the biggest crash and cause the most damage, and because of its very close proximity to the largest Media in the U.S., all of which its attackers understood would make the biggest impact on the nervous systems of Americans, and cause the biggest overreaction by Bush.

Comment #83: News Nag  on  08/24  at  11:20 PM

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Comment #84: madisonmadi4  on  08/24  at  11:31 PM

Personally, I think the Twin Towers were chosen as target predominantly because they were the biggest and tallst buildings in the U.S.

Incorrect.

Willis Tower (formerly Sears Tower until 2009) in Chicago is the tallest building in the United States and has been since it opened.  The World Trade Center only held that title for the two years it was open before Willis Tower was completed.  Willis Tower’s roof is 83 feet taller than WTC 1, and the antenna/spire is 3 feet higher than WTC 1.

When it is completed, the new One World Trade Center (originally it was going to be called “Freedom Tower”) going up at Ground Zero will become the tallest skyscraper in the U.S., topping out at 1776 feet (intentionally symbolic of America’s founding year).

Though the project has been suspended, should construction resume on the Chicago Spire, it will bring the tallest building title back to the Windy City, with the Santiago Calatrava designed residential tower planned to top out at 2133 feet and 150 stories.  As it is a high-end luxury residential building, the project hit a brick wall when the housing market went bust, and right now there is a massive crater sized hole on the site where the foundation has yet to be built.

Comment #85: DTGslu2K  on  08/25  at  04:09 AM
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