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When moving your body is a privilege of the few

I posted some on this at Double X, but I thought it would be interesting to expand on here.  This article in the LA Times is about when it’s okay to let your kids quit an activity, but what really jumped out at me about it was how much children’s sports are portrayed as this miserable hellhole of competition where only the toughest survive.

But the intensity of the conditioning was unlike anything Bob had experienced. The boys did up-downs until their faces turned purple. They were forced to run laps holding hands as a punishment. While there was an emphasis on teamwork — in theory, football is supposed to be the ultimate team sport — there was a profound absence of positive reinforcement.

So after 13 weeks, and just before the season ended, my son did what his gut told him to do: He quit.

“It’s not fun,” he said wearily. “And I’m tired of the coaches making me feel badly about myself.”

Awesome, I thought.  Bob’s chances just shot up of being allergic to athletic activity for the rest of his life because of these associations.  Maybe he’ll get lucky and this experience won’t sour him on his own image of his body as an athletic entity.  But if he’s like many to most Americans who had negative experiences with jock culture as young people, his insecurity about not being perfect out of the gate will hound him, and make all future attempts to pick up exercise feel futile and disheartening.  When his doctor tells him he better pick up some exercise routine or else, he’ll join a gym or try bicycling, but exposure to the jocks in that environment will dredge up the same negative associations and feelings of inadequacy, and he’s quite likely to give up.  Or, if he’s lucky, he’ll fall in with people who see working out as a competition only with yourself, and who see sports mainly as a way to relax and have fun, and he’ll be able to get into the groove.  But he’ll always be a little behind where he wished he’d be, where someone who’d spent his whole life doing athletic things would be.

Sorry to sound so bleak, but few things can create mental blocks for people like being labeled as children—-it often takes decades for adults to realize that they actually aren’t bad at math or incapable of being athletic, as they were told as children.  If they ever learn.  Which is exactly what the LA Times writer discovered.

The results of the study also send a strong message to coaches who humiliate children: The things they do and say can turn a child off from team sports for years.

Although the study was designed to examine how instructors made sports fun for kids, the responses focused more on what coaches did wrong. Strean, in fact, says he was shocked by the emotional responses he received.

“The so-called physical education that I received as a kid robbed me of the joy of physical activity for many years,” one participant wrote. “It did nothing whatever to establish habits of balance in life between the cerebral and the physical. Instead, the focus seemed to be on achieving excellence in a competitive setting. It destroyed my physical confidence.”

And these pee wee coaches acting like they’re coaching the fucking NFL isn’t doing anyone any favors.

In his four years as a softball coach, Charlie Hutchinson, a father of two daughters, has had to counsel his share of parents whose kids want to drop out.

“In most cases, kids want to quit because they feel they are not good at something,” Hutchinson says. “We tend to not want our kids to suffer. I think it’s part of the culture where everyone gets a trophy. Parents should make them stick with it. You made a commitment? You should finish it.”

Hutchinson, however, agrees with Strean that coaches need to “stop worrying about winning and start having fun,” he says. “How else do you build a love for something?”

That he doesn’t see the contradiction there is interesting.  It’s such a truism that there’s something wrong with rewarding kids for simply getting out there and trying, but when it comes to sports, I would actually say that’s a critical thing to do.  Because you know what?  When you’re an adult and trying to work up enthusiasm for putting on your sneakers and going for a run, you’re not going to get there convincing yourself it doesn’t count unless you’re an Olympian.  You need to reward yourself just for getting out there and trying. 

You have to ask yourself what we’re trying to get out of juvenile sports.  Is it there to teach kids that winning is everything, and that anything short of that is utter failure?  Are we using it simply as a system to find the one in thousands that will become a professional athlete?  Or is it there to teach about sportsmanship, camaraderie, and inculcate a love of physical activity that will serve you well your entire life?  If it’s the latter, then the everyone-gets-a-trophy attitude is actually the best approach.  Just because everyone gets a trophy doesn’t mean you can’t have competition—-winners, I suspect, will always get better trophies.  But if people who aren’t the absolute best get no positive reinforcement, of course they drop out.  We’re human beings—-we thrive on positivity and reward, not despair and failure. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:57 PM • (210) Comments

It seriously took my mom until she was nearly 40 years old to realize that she wasn’t completely hopeless at math.  Her 9th grade Algebra teacher routinely held up her bad papers in front of the entire class and encouraged all the other kids to mock her, so it took her about 20 years to even be willing to *look* at anything whatsoever to do with math, especially if any other sentient lifeform was around to watch her doing it.

Comment #1: Lisa KS  on  06/23  at  07:54 PM

Great post! I am such a classic example of an uncoordinated kid who was victimized by the only-jocks-need-apply approach to phys ed. Only now at age 54 am I starting to try to get into some kind of decent condition.

Comment #2: Steve LaBonne  on  06/23  at  08:02 PM

...reminds me of another story, too:  My roommate coached Little League baseball several years ago.  His team and one other coach’s team were vying for first place one year, and then they met on the field for a game—the other team’s coach had picked the biggest kid on his team to be the pitcher, and he had taught the kid to throw the ball as hard as he could every time he pitched with aiming being very secondary.  The end result of this was that the kid, who was unusually big for that age bracket already, was regularly hitting the opposing team’s batters with the ball, and hitting them VERY hard with it.  My roommate said he put up with that for two hitters, then the littlest kid on his team came out to bat, who was about half the size of the other team’s pitcher, and the kid clearly *knew* he was going to get hit.  My roommate said he (my roommate) was so pissed off at that other coach he nearly cried (this story got told because we were asking each other over beers “have you ever been so mad you actually cried?”) and he just went over and forfeited the game completely, and refused to play against that team again that season when it came up on the schedule a second time.  Because, he said, he wasn’t about to help some psycho (his words) traumatize all the kids on his team out of ever touching a baseball again.

Comment #3: Lisa KS  on  06/23  at  08:03 PM

Amanda, I’d say this is one area where you need a little parental education or a little research to understand kid’s athletics culture and terminology In short, not all little leagues are the same and the designations/nuances are important.  While football is often its own weird over the top culture, not all sports are.

Designations like House/Rec(reational)/instructional (and sometimes “club” except in volleyball, where club is more competitve than school teams) should mean fun and everyone plays, and its a learning experience.  Terms like “Travel”  or teams one trys out for and parents pay beaucoup bucks, and coaches recruit etc. is the cutthroat competitive.  Those designations vary regionally too, I’d guess. 

There are also league differences as well as organization and public versus private venues (generally, IME, the public or “park” sponsored are less cutthroat,  because they are under less pressure to win so they can recruit more so they can profit more or pay the bills.

And I’ll disagree on the everybody gets a trophy -while that’s great at say 5-8, and there should certainly be trophies for the kids who improve most or try the hardest,  it’s essentially a meaningless dust-collecting piece of imported junk, if everyone gets it, especially if the bad attitude, non-trying kid gets one too.

Comment #4: phylosopher  on  06/23  at  08:05 PM

I played baseball when I was a kid and always loved it. I was lucky to have great coaches who made everyone on the team feel like they contributed to the win even if they didn’t actually take the field that day (for whatever reason). It wasn’t until I got to high school and made the varsity team that everything changed. The coaches cursed at us. Called us fags & pussies if we couldn’t run as far as they wanted us to after a 3 hour practice. I injured my shoulder my first year and used that as my excuse to not play the next year (it wasn’t “career ending”, but pretty bad). The coach still called me a pussy for not coming back out for the team even though he knew the extent of my injury and that there was no way I could play as well as I had.

I feel that sports for young people can be a great way to learn the value of teamwork. As Amanda said though, these coaches who think they’re coaching future NFL stars are ruining it for everyone. The kids and the parents.

Comment #5: Mark  on  06/23  at  08:06 PM

Although I had other problems with my gym teachers (like the fact that not ONE of them figured out I kept going into coughing jags after running laps because I had asthma), my school actually had a really good approach to gym class where we would do units of different activities.  So we would do, say, 4 weeks of volleyball, 4 weeks of aerobics, 4 weeks of swimming, etc.  That way, even if you sucked at a particular unit, you would only have to wait a few weeks until the next one.  That’s how I discovered I have a strange talent for team handball.

My parents forced me to play soccer every summer for three or four years, but even that wasn’t so bad because you were randomly assigned to a team so you didn’t have coaches running little fiefdoms—they got the players they were assigned and they did the best they could.

It wasn’t until college that my choices seemed like they were restricted to working out at the gym or playing an organized sport, period. Especially since my college was in South Central Los Angeles, so you couldn’t really just go wandering down whatever street looked interesting.

(Well, you couldn’t 20 years ago.  Things have really improved there since I was a student.  Post-riot funding really helped out the whole neighborhood.)

For me, exercise works best when it’s in the service of something else.  I’ll walk miles to do errands, but walking the same distance on a treadmill just makes me want to slit my wrists.  It’s that everyday kind of activity that’s really fallen by the wayside, IMO.

Comment #6: Mnemosyne  on  06/23  at  08:15 PM

I played baseball for seven seasons when I was a kid, and I also loved it.  I played in a city league during the summer, and although it was competitive, there were pretty good rules about making sure everyone had playing time.  Coaches were certainly critical when you didn’t do something right, but not so much that it ruined your desire to play.  They never openly ridiculed or humiliated you.  If you missed a steal sign, you might get your ear chewed on a bit, and that was that.

I did stop playing, but that’s because of a falling out I had with a team member, and since teams were grouped by neighborhood (the idea is that you’d be more comfortable playing with people you already knew from around home), I knew I’d be playing with him again and I didn’t want to deal with that.

Comment #7: Linnaeus  on  06/23  at  08:18 PM

I played peewee football when I was that kid’s age, and we didn’t have anything crazy like that because we were 9 years old.

I was never that athletic (not naturally tall or especially strong or unusually fast), but one of the better things about my high school was that it was so small that most everyone did a sport for at least 1 or 2 seasons if not all 3. It was expected that you could do something, and the thing is that it built good habits: I exercise as much as I can and I look forward to it.

Part of the experience of competitive sports is being driven to push yourself beyond what you’ve done before, and that’s great,  but, I think, the problem comes in when coaches try to foster the “jock culture” and build their teams under the assumption that the best way to run a team is if everyone shares the same cultural temperament that responds to and thrives on abuse. The only way to have schools that encourage physical activity and sports participation is if you accept that all sorts of temperaments have to be accommodated.

Comment #8: Tyro  on  06/23  at  08:19 PM

“The so-called physical education that I received as a kid robbed me of the joy of physical activity for many years,” one participant wrote. “It did nothing whatever to establish habits of balance in life between the cerebral and the physical.

This. The routine “physical education” I got in middle school and early high school taught me exactly zip except that physical activity could never be fun for me because it involved being mocked, teased and bullied. It was a complete joke and I’m certain that’s true of a great deal of routine “physical education” in schools. My son’s elementary school uses running or walking track laps during recess as a punishment!

His school, and mine, had the right idea for PE in the very early grades, where the games are fun and engaging and everyone is excited to try something fun like the balance beam, the stilts or running under the parachute. But something happens, I’d say around 3rd grade, where PE seems to be this arcane ritual punishment more about everyone having to suffer (and if you’re one of the lucky few who are talented jocks you get to lord it over everyone else) than about everyone learning to enjoy what their bodies can do.

I only got my first inkling about working out being fun when I transferred to an alternative high school that had no PE facilities. Once a week the PE class went to the nearby college to use their gym. The whole thing was no pressure and free choice—some kids lifted weights, some used the stair machines, I opted to run/walk around the track for the entire period. At first it was because I was bored by the whole thing, found it pointless, and wanted something mindless to while away the class time—I wasn’t a masochist and had zero desire to display my puny weightlifting capabilities or total lack of endurance in front of others doing the same thing. But after a months or so my teacher praised me for my “focus” on what I was doing and pointed out how my capabilities were growing. That was the moment when I began to realize “hey, this stuff is actually rewarding” and began consciously working towards gaining endurance and looking forward to gym day.

I feel really grateful that my teacher saw me as an individual and highlighted that my progress was every bit as real, special and important as the progress of the big weightlifting jocks. Maybe that’s what’s missing from school PE in so many cases—kids don’t get that focus and reinforcement unless they’re performing at a certain level, which may not be a level most can ever realistically attain. As long as we reward jockitude, all the ordinary kids who can benefit from finding out what *their* bodies can do aren’t going to get that benefit.

Comment #9: kristin  on  06/23  at  08:24 PM

Christ, this is about EXACTLY what I went through, having joined a T-Ball team when I was old enough to play regular little league, (because I wasn’t skilled enough.  The tryouts actually involved getting beaned by the tryout coach…) and was mocked by all the other players for my poor play.  Granted, it wasn’t the only time I was mocked, but one of the most memorable.  And for fucks sake, I nearly caught hypothermia playing in the rain one day.

It wasn’t until recently when at a mere 30 years old I was overweight and diagnosed with high cholesterol that I took up swimming again.  Even that was a bit difficult (the fear of being mocked for being a fatass as I jumped in the pool.)  Best thing about it though was that I worked at my own pace and didn’t have to take the taunts of others for “dragging everyone else behind” or other such bullshit.

Comment #10: Zed  on  06/23  at  08:27 PM

Call me wacky, but the take-away message I got from this article is that Bob’s mom (his father is deceased) is a fucking idiot.

It would be one thing if she simply had no idea what was going on with her son’s flag football team. But apparently she did, and this wasn’t simply a kid complaining that the coach was making them work hard or was stern: there was homophobic shaming (the boys had to run ‘holding hands’) and physical abuse (pushups until their faces were purple) and her reaction is: “I didn’t approve of one coach’s treatment of the boys, but was it really OK to quit?”

I mean, seriously? Your EIGHT YEAR OLD CHILD tells you that one of their coaches is a sadistic sack of shit who has been torturing him and his teammates for weeks, and your reaction is to wring your hands and say oh nooooo, my baby might be a quitter and besides I heart football?

Comment #11: mythago  on  06/23  at  08:32 PM

I think a lot of the problems with youth sports in the US is that we can’t let go of the idea that we are training kids for future careers, as opposed to providing the opportunity to get outside, run around, work off some energy, and develop healthy habits. 

I remember watching one of my brothers go through this with high school football.  He was one of the jocks, but we’re talking middle class white kid whose future lies in college and not pro sports.  Sure, some people in that position are going to decide they want to be professional athletes.  And my brother was extremely talented. 

But getting up at 6 am every day all summer long to work out in 90 degree heat till you puke?  Severe injuries involving multiple surgeries and long term health impacts?  Pressure to use steroids at 14 or 15?  I remember looking at his life and not understanding how any of this could be “fun” or “rewarding” or even a remotely worthwhile use of one’s time. 

And, of course, after the knee injury that sidelined him senior year, he hasn’t done anything remotely athletic.  He doesn’t belong to a gym.  Doesn’t play pickup games with friends.  And of course is in exactly the same place as his 20-something college educated peers in terms of weight and health issues.  Those years of intense athletic training didn’t even teach him how to be a healthy adult.

All because, god forbid we let anyone do anything just because it’s fun and not because it’s going to be their career someday.

Comment #12: The Opoponax  on  06/23  at  08:35 PM

And I’ll disagree on the everybody gets a trophy -while that’s great at say 5-8, and there should certainly be trophies for the kids who improve most or try the hardest, it’s essentially a meaningless dust-collecting piece of imported junk, if everyone gets it, especially if the bad attitude, non-trying kid gets one too.

It depends on the purpose of the team, though.  If you’re on a competitive team where you’re playing towards some kind of championship, then focusing on the most productive players might make sense.  If you’re playing on a team where the point is to have fun and socialize while maybe learning a few new skills, then cutthroat competition is counterproductive and will, frankly, ruin the experience for most of the team members.

It’s the difference between being on a varsity team in high school or college and being on your company’s softball team.  How much good is it going to do anyone in your office if you have a screamer of a coach who makes everyone do pushups until they turn blue?  Now translate that to kid sports where the kid’s parents signed him/her up so they would get out of the house to get some fresh air, not because they think their kid is going to be the next David Beckham.

Comment #13: Mnemosyne  on  06/23  at  08:35 PM

I mean, seriously? Your EIGHT YEAR OLD CHILD tells you that one of their coaches is a sadistic sack of shit who has been torturing him and his teammates for weeks, and your reaction is to wring your hands and say oh nooooo, my baby might be a quitter and besides I heart football?

Actually, I think the problem is more in society’s attitude that Sports Are For Boys.  Especially if his father is dead, you start to worry that you’re going to deprive your son of some necessary masculine experience.  You worry that you’re just being overprotective and your son is going to end up living with you when he’s 40 because you just can’t let go and let him be A Man.  Add that to our seriously fucked-up societal ideas of what masculinity is and you pretty much have a recipe for this kind of disaster.

As more girls play sports, hopefully some of that will pass and women won’t feel like sports are something so far out of their realm that they can’t even have an opinion about how their son’s coach is doing his job because sports are this mysterious masculine realm that women just can’t understand.

Comment #14: Mnemosyne  on  06/23  at  08:40 PM

There are far too many coaches who are harsh to kids, thinking that is the only way to help them.  That is incorrect; some kids respond to that approach and others don’t.  It’s a coach’s responsibility to learn and know how to motivate his players in different ways.  The coaches shouldn’t treat kids like they’re trying out for professional leagues and the coaches should maintain control to make sure the jocks don’t harass or make the other kids feel bad.  If more coaches and parents stopped trying to live through children then we’d all be better off.  After all, it’s not a child’s fault that you didn’t get that scholarship or didn’t go pro. 
However, I would disagree with the “everyone wins” approach.  Everyone doesn’t win in life and children have to learn that they won’t be good in everything and that they’ll have ups and downs in life.  This idea that we seem to have now that you did great just by participating is setting up kids to think they’ll be good at everything and not knowing how to handle defeat and the real world.  By doing otherwise, you spoil kids and then they grow up and freak out if they get a B here and there and when they come into the work force, they expect to be treated like they’ve accomplished something in the company, when they have not earned it. Kids have to understand how to handle disappointment and part of that is facing adversity and not crumbling under it.

Comment #15: crepes not hate  on  06/23  at  08:41 PM

Actually, we do and the opportunities ARE there, so please, not with the blanket statement, Oppo. At least in hockey - there is something called 3 on 3, which is totally recreational although the kids have to know the rules and how to skate.  There’re also adult leagues - fondly referred to as “beer leagues”  which are divided into different skill and age levels (the skill part being mainly self-selection.)  There is also “rat” or pickup hockey.  I believe there are softball leagues like this for adults, too. IN hockey, the leagues are populated by a mix of former hs and even college players, and some who learned later in life.

Comment #16: phylosopher  on  06/23  at  08:45 PM

Mnemo - I’m not sayigngbe competitive, I’m saying save the meaningless imported landfill - OK

Comment #17: phylosopher  on  06/23  at  08:46 PM

This is a refreshing take on the problem of sports.  I’m thinking of this post in light of some of the early criticisms of the gender divide in sports that were, by necessity, made from the outside.  Recognizing that exclusion of women is a real problem, I nevertheless grind my teeth a little when I read feminists extolling the virtues of team sports in building self-assurance, citizenship, good work ethic, etc. when defending Title IX—which, for the record, I think should be expanded to cover the whole academy. 

Sports can bring those benefits, and everyone ought to have the opportunity to engage in that kind of healthy play, but that kind of pleasant sport culture is an absurd fiction even for the men who were “allowed” to participate.  Rather, as the repondents in the study show, sport culture in the U.S. has a broad strain of hypermasculinity and capitalist dogma that would make Rand blush, and equal access to that structure just leaves the system of oppression in place.  I suspect that mixed gender teams will do a great deal to mitigate that, but only when accompanied with (as here) an honest appraisal of juvenile sports institutions as they are rather than as we wish them to be. 

@phylosopher:  (1) Your experience with more benevolent rec leagues is not universal (2) these problems aren’t resolved by waving away the most problematic elements like football leagues. 

For my anecdata, the public rec leagues in my hometown were just as cursed with this kind of nastiness as anywhere else, with the exception of the soccer league.  Soccer (which was derisively called “Commie Kickball”) was so unpopular in my hometown that it was mixed gender, and the coaches couldn’t torment anyone for fear they wouldn’t be able to field a team.  I was just as terrible at soccer as I was at baseball and football, and soccer, but I genuinely enjoyed playing—and no one was yelling at people for kicking, throwing, or hitting like a girl.

Comment #18: Thom  on  06/23  at  08:48 PM

To clarify, I mean that we should apply the three prong compliance test for athletics to academic majors—Title IX already otherwise prohibits discrimination in education.

Comment #19: Thom  on  06/23  at  08:54 PM

Mnemosyne @14, there’s definitely a sense of compensation there. But mom is still a fucking idiot.This wasn’t simply a kid complaining that he hated football or the coach made them do push-ups, but a homophobic, shaming, abusive jackhole. A parent who thinks that’s perfectly appropriate treatment of eight-year-old boys playing flag football for fun needs her head examined.

Comment #20: mythago  on  06/23  at  08:59 PM

I think a lot of the problems with youth sports in the US is that we can’t let go of the idea that we are training kids for future careers, as opposed to providing the opportunity to get outside, run around, work off some energy, and develop healthy habits.

If people admitted their children weren’t going to be superstar sports stars what would ESPN, Gatorade, and the thousands of sports-related dietary aids do?  They have a vested interest in keeping these sports excessively competitive.  In fact I can trace the lines as I played little league (and won the championship, thank you very much) to watching my nephews play now.  Water is gone, instead they get gatorade and it’s competitors on the sidelines.  Kids go to batting schools instead of just the cages to swing and have fun. 

It’s a complex self-perpetuating system of justifying professionalism in children’s activities in the name of “maturity.”  I would rather see middle-schools and high schools convert their 2nd or third basketball courts into weight training and cardio rooms so that kids can learn productive exercise that they can continue into their adult years.  Gym is honestly the last place kids who are smaller than average wish to socialize.  I was always a massive kid, both taller and heavier than my age group by almost 2-3 years of growth.  I enjoyed gym, but that was because I enjoyed the exercise it afforded me.  I knew most kids dreaded it because it was soul-crushing when the gym teacher would force kids to participate and those kids who dragged behind slowed team games.

To actually touch on the subject of two-a-days:  Football is the lifeblood of small town America.  The last place the “American Dream” exists.  I had a fair chance at making it to a D-I or D-IA school for a scholarship but I would have rather gone on my mind than my body.  But I never desired to crush myself under the strain of 4-6 hours a day of working out to justify such action.  It would have cut into my studies and my tiny social life.  At 8 years old, if a kid is getting beaten that badly it is time to talk to the coach.  Kids only at 14 or older should ever be subjected to such forceful activities and only under their consent.  Kids shouldn’t be left to rot in their own stew of junk food and video games but forcing them into these dungeons of “character buildings” is just stupid.

Comment #21: Xeranar  on  06/23  at  09:04 PM

I never had a problem with teachers and coaches.  It was ALWAYS kids who put me off exercise and team sports in particular.  And, above all, the boys.  You guys take that shit way too seriously, and, unsurprisingly, boys and men use sports as a way to hassle girls and women.

Comment #22: keshmeshi  on  06/23  at  09:22 PM

Yoga.

Comment #23: Shelley  on  06/23  at  09:23 PM

What I’ve always wondered is why we are focusing on team sports as a way for kids to be healthy?  How many adults find and play with a team?  Some do, sure, but not many.  Individual activities- running, hiking, rock climbing, swimming, weight lifting, dancing- are things kids are likely to continue doing when they get out of high school.  So gym classes, at least in middle school/high school, should focus on things that kids can do without a team and at their own pace.  They are also activities that you can see yourself improve at, which builds real confidence.  Team sports are not fun for everyone, especially kids who aren’t coordinated.  They were torture for me- I’m a klutz and hated every minute of gym class until I got to middle school and could run cross country instead of going to gym class.

Comment #24: JoanofArc  on  06/23  at  09:28 PM

I love sports.  From the time I was 7 all I wanted to be was a major league baseball player.  The problem: a wandering left eye that to this day is about 20/100 vision. Woops! No baseball for me!  Then I went through puberty and the aching knees started…and they’ve never stopped.  So, to even play pick-up basketball or kick a soccer ball around can mean 3 days of hobbling around.  It’s a big disappointment to me because I love to play, but my body has other ideas.

But at least I wouldn’t be on the receiving end of this John Lydon lyric:

Develop your body
But your mind is still a slum

BTW, great win for the US today in the World Cup, plus an England v. Germany match this weekend. Loving the WC so far, despite the fucking vuvuzelas.

Comment #25: Henry Holland  on  06/23  at  09:33 PM

This idea that we seem to have now that you did great just by participating is setting up kids to think they’ll be good at everything and not knowing how to handle defeat and the real world.

I think it’s a fine line.  Kids should be encouraged to do things even if they aren’t good at them if they enjoy them.  Obviously, if your kid is constantly getting head injuries from playing T-ball, you should probably encourage them to do something else, but if your kid is actually enjoying T-ball even though he sucks at it, why make him stop just because he isn’t very good?

What we need to put the emphasis on is that it’s good to try something new even if you aren’t immediately (or ever) good at it and that, yes, you will sometimes fail.  How much of a “failure” is a kid who doesn’t get onto the varsity soccer team but still enjoys pickup games at the park and maybe joins a local rec league instead?  Do you really want to tell that kid that since he didn’t get on the team, he sucks at soccer and should put the ball down?

Comment #26: Mnemosyne  on  06/23  at  09:35 PM

Actually, we do and the opportunities ARE there, so please, not with the blanket statement, Oppo.

It’s not that those opportunities never exist, it’s that they rarely do.  And are rarely offered to kids in ways that don’t seem insulting and dumb.  Especially as you get older.  There are lots of “everybody wins and it’s just fun!” sports opportunities for 7 year olds.  There are virtually none for 17 year olds.

Up until I was about 12, I loved competitive swimming.  We had practice for an hour twice a week after school.  A lot of my friends were on my team.  I wasn’t super talented, but I won my share of heats and didn’t feel humiliated over my performance.  Then we graduated into a different age level and all that changed.  Practice was for two hours, before school.  Most of my friends quit (largely over OMG periods/group showers/puberty ohnoes!!!1!!!!11! drama).  Most of the kids who stayed were the really athletic ones, the ones who actually cared about stuff like trophies and records and state championships and all that.  In addition to being held at 5:30am, practices started being less about “woo fun happy swimming time!” and more about drills and technique and boring crap nobody wants to do, even if it’s not the crack of dawn.  It stopped being fun.  So I quit.  That was pretty much the end of my involvement with sports.

Very few children will grow up to be elite athletes.  100% of all humans need to get out and move their bodies on a regular basis.  Why can’t people (schools and coaches and gyms, but also parents) do the math on that?

Comment #27: The Opoponax  on  06/23  at  09:35 PM

Back around 1988, I read a book about weight loss, which I didn’t need at the time but do now, desperately.  One of the concepts of the book was “Anything worth doing is worth doing badly.”  In other words, if a thing is worth doing—in and of itself—that it doesn’t matter if you are good or bad at it.  Just do it anyway.  Maybe you will get better eventually and maybe you won’t, but if it’s worth doing, then who cares?  It was actually a pretty good book…

Comment #28: xebecs  on  06/23  at  09:35 PM

A parent who thinks that’s perfectly appropriate treatment of eight-year-old boys playing flag football for fun needs her head examined.

Yep, why didn’t she just leave?

She did eventually (her son did), and how long she stuck it out is really an index of how screwy so many people are about sports. Think about all the other kids on the low end of the curve; they didn’t quit. That’s how crazy people are.

But I think we shouldn’t divorce this from the abusive tone that the right wing has fostered throughout society—in employment, in business transactions, in politics. And just as an alienated electorate benefits the right wing at the polls, a country full of people alienated from their bodies benefits the culture of mindless consumerism. (Or something like that, only less glib and simpleminded.)

Comment #29: paul  on  06/23  at  09:38 PM

You guys take that shit way too seriously, and, unsurprisingly, boys and men use sports as a way to hassle girls and women.

Oh, but I had a lovely day where we had a co-ed softball game in high school gym and the guys kept yelling at me to choke up on the bat.  I struck out taking their advice, switched back to my regular stance, and hit a single, which I made a point of highlighting was the result of me ignoring them.  Heh.

Of course, as I said above, we had pretty good PE teachers, so they policed all of the co-ed sports and didn’t allow the boys to actively harass the girls.  They would still try to dominate the games, though.

Second-best day was when it rained and the boys had to join our aerobics class for the day.  All of the guys who were absolutely sure that they were star athletes couldn’t even do a grapevine.  Sometimes revenge is sweet.

Comment #30: Mnemosyne  on  06/23  at  09:39 PM

Mnemo - I’m not sayigngbe competitive, I’m saying save the meaningless imported landfill - OK

I think you’re taking “everyone gets a trophy” much more literally than anyone else here.  “Everyone gets a trophy” as a sports philosophy does not actually mean that every single person is handed a physical object in the shape of a trophy.

Comment #31: Mnemosyne  on  06/23  at  09:42 PM

I was a big kid and always good at sports, so I played all the time and had fun, because even tho I never gave a shit about winning, I was skilled enough that I seldom contributed to losing, so didn’t bear the brunt of the ritual humiliation. But it was just awful for a lot of the other kids, especially the ones whose dads lived through their kids’ sports experiences. The guy I really feel sorry for is “Tiger” Woods, who probably doesn’t have a lot of fans on this blog, but if you read up on the details of his upbringing you might be inclined to view him as more tragic than entitled. I really wish I could still play baseball, but at my age (42), the only guys who still play baseball take it WAY too seriously, like to the blow a blood vessel point. I played for most of a season a couple of years ago, but just couldn’t take the macho. Sad, really.

Comment #32: felagund  on  06/23  at  09:42 PM

Just wanted to say how I love this post and how precisely it expresses my problems with sports.  I have so many health problems and I have to wonder how much healthier I would have been had I not been shamed away from exercising.

Comment #33: Lurker  on  06/23  at  09:47 PM

It’s the difference between being on a varsity team in high school or college and being on your company’s softball team.

It’s actually really sad that 99% of high school athletic programs are so insanely competitive* and not like being on a company softball team.  The vast majority of teenagers are going to high school as a bridge to college and/or some kind of future work which will not have anything to do with athletics.  And yet most high school sports seem to assume that the kids’ priorities should be on football (or whatever other sport), not their studies or future plans.

Especially considering that most high schools aren’t at a particularly competitive level, athletically.  My high school never got remotely close to the state championship level in the prestige sports (we won a few tennis championships, and I think we had a decent softball team occasionally).  None of the people I went to school with went on to be pro athletes.  So why the obsession?  Why make it so awful for everyone?  Why not just let it be something fun to do after class, like the orchestra and the school paper?

Comment #34: The Opoponax  on  06/23  at  09:52 PM

Why make it so awful for everyone? Consider the people who decide to become coaches…

Comment #35: paul  on  06/23  at  09:54 PM

-Mnemosye
No, I don’t think that because a child isn’t a star athlete, he or she should give up on the sport.  Most of the people on any team (at least when it’s on a child’s level) aren’t good or even that bad; they just don’t know how to play yet.  They don’t usually have enough coordination or perhaps enough of an attention span to practice and get good. They also might not have been coached properly but the possibility is also that they’re just not good at that particular sport.  As far as not making the team (on a level of high school or below), then yes, it probably means you suck, in relation to the talent around you.  That doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy it but let us not tell the kid that didn’t make the team, “You get a trophy for trying out!”  Also, just because you’re not good at something doesn’t make you a bad person or mean that you should be picked on or made fun of.
  I played high school football and I realized I never would play in the NFL but I still enjoyed it. I didn’t whine about it or expect a college team to offer me a scholarship because I really tried hard or I was a good guy. The distinction I’m drawing is between giving every kid some award for trying or playing, and giving an award for winning.  You can say, “I’m glad you tried your hardest,” without some over the top display of how awesome it is that they even tried.  You’re expected to try; it’s not an accomplishment. The trophies should be reserved for those who win; outside of soccer and hockey, it’s either you win or lose.  When you play with friends, you should try to win but that is not necessarily the goal. However, in any competition, if winning isn’t the goal, then it’s not a competition.
To be clear: Being mean to kids if they aren’t good at sports or art is not good.  Taking the fun out of kids activities because parents have decided winning is the only thing at that young age is not good either. Always telling kids that the only thing that matters is that they tried and congratulating them for that does them a disservice in preparation for adulthood. Instead, tell the child or team that it’s good that you tried and sometimes you’ll win, sometimes you’ll lose, you won’t succeed at everything and you won’t fail at everything either.

Comment #36: crepes not hate  on  06/23  at  09:56 PM

“Parents should make them stick with it. You made a commitment? You should finish it.”

WTF???????
It’s little league, not army

Comment #37: jefft452  on  06/23  at  09:57 PM

As someone who allowed herself (happily) to be stereotyped as non-athletic as a child, this is something of a sore spot.  I thrive as an adult as someone who really enjoys moving her body and being strong—-Marc jokes I’ve turned into a kind of jock.  But I’d still completely panic if put into a team sports situation.  It’s so irrational.  I occasionally look at the folks playing league sports in the park and think about signing up, but it’s a huge mental block.

Comment #38: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/23  at  10:00 PM

I really wish I could still play baseball, but at my age (42), the only guys who still play baseball take it WAY too seriously, like to the blow a blood vessel point. I played for most of a season a couple of years ago, but just couldn’t take the macho. Sad, really.

I had a similar experience with what was supposed to be a casual pickup soccer league a few years ago.  I was hoping to show up on weekend afternoons, kick the ball around, get a little exercise.  I quit after a match where a dispute over whether someone was offsides turned into a fistfight.  Not my scene.  And, yeah, it was sad. 

Now I ride my bike all by myself (or sometimes with friends who are already my friends on foot) and do it however I want to.  And if I don’t have the right cadence or put in a lot of miles or whatever, who cares?  It’s not the Tour de France, I’m just going to the beach.

Comment #39: The Opoponax  on  06/23  at  10:01 PM

As far as not making the team (on a level of high school or below), then yes, it probably means you suck, in relation to the talent around you.  That doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy it but let us not tell the kid that didn’t make the team, “You get a trophy for trying out!”

Show me any high school, anywhere, that gives out trophies for trying to get on the team.  I will guarantee you that you will not find a single one even in the most fruitsy-nutsy liberal community.  Not one.  I’m sorry, but it’s a myth once you get past 3rd grade or so.

The problem isn’t that the kids feel like they’re entitled to a pro contract after one year of junior varsity—the problem is that the parents think their precious little snowflake should be given one and demand to know why the coach isn’t putting little Johnny in the championship game just because he’s dropped every pass this season.  It’s a parenting problem that schools can only do so much to mitigate, frankly.

That’s a huge aspect of the problem that some people here have hit on:  it’s the parents and coaches who develop these outsized ideas that a kid has to be the star quarterback or never touch a football again, not the kids, and it doesn’t happen because of participation trophies.

Comment #40: Mnemosyne  on  06/23  at  10:05 PM

That doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy it but let us not tell the kid that didn’t make the team, “You get a trophy for trying out!”

I don’t entirely understand why there’s such a thing as “not making the team” at the high school level.  I mean, either it’s something you’re interested in doing, or it’s not.  Nobody “doesn’t make” the school paper or the French club.  If you play an instrument, you can join the band, or if you don’t, then you won’t (and my h.s. band had plenty of spots for kids who weren’t that musically inclined but still wanted to be involved).  If you want to be in the school play but aren’t great at learning lines, you’ll be in the chorus or design the scenery or something.

Comment #41: The Opoponax  on  06/23  at  10:09 PM

I did play a few years of little league softball as a child until junior high.  Our team even won that league’s local championships one year even though I was the weakest link on the team being uncoordinated, ungainly, and unable to hit/catch much of anything.  Stopped mainly because junior high started to take up too much time with the extended traveling and preparation for the magnet high school examinations. 

Fortunately, sports in school was limited to casual gaming where there wasn’t much of a jock culture to speak of beyond a few asshole kids with pie-in-the-sky hopes of making it into the NBA whose behavior and actions already indicated that their next likely stop was going to be the local precinct lockup or even Rikers Island. 

As for high school, the culture there was almost the exact opposite of most mainstream US high schools…...the math team/Westinghouse Winners were the popular people and it was the jocks who were made fun of, thought to be “intellectually challenged”, and sometimes not deserving to be in the same school as the rest of us even though they all had to take the exact same admissions test that we all did to be considered for admission.  rolleyes

Never cared much for team sports not only because I wasn’t very coordinated as a kid, but also the fact that the few jocks I did encounter in junior high and college behaved and had values that were almost completely antithetical to ones that I was raised with at home and were reinforced at my high school…academics and getting into Ivy/Ivy-level schools uber alles…...everything else is either supportive of that or to be ignored/dismissed as a “waste of time”.  The few jocks I’ve met in junior high and at various colleges blew off their academics until they were academically suspended, expelled, or dropped out of their own accord.  Similarly to how most high school classmates including myself prioritized sports/sports culture…..we all felt it was a huge frivolous distraction from academics, getting into the best college/university, and ultimately..getting on a highly lucrative/prestigious professional careers. 

Ironically, our high school did have a great fencing team that I did try out for.  Unfortunately, since my junior high didn’t have that sport and many kids who tried out had fencing in their junior highs, they had the advantage. 

I did start taking up long distance walking all on my own and enjoyed pickup soccer games with college friends and cousins when I had the chance.  A media player filled with high energy songs, some time, and some scenic walking routes and I am off.

Comment #42: exholt  on  06/23  at  10:09 PM

However, I would disagree with the “everyone wins” approach.  Everyone doesn’t win in life and children have to learn that they won’t be good in everything and that they’ll have ups and downs in life.

I’m amused at how people think that if kids aren’t made to feel like losers in sports, they won’t somehow learn this lesson.  I promise life teaches this.

I also recommend reading the book “Outliers”, which explains how wrong you really are.  People who feel entitled actually tend to do better than those who don’t.  The reason we beat kids down isn’t for their own good, it’s because entitled teenagers annoy us.  We sacrifice their well-being for our emotional comfort.

Comment #43: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/23  at  10:09 PM

Yoga.

No doubt with the Diva Cup firmly in place.  I really do wish yoga people realize their exercise bores many of us to absolute death.  I’m also curious what actual doctors have to say about simple stretching as your sole form of exercise.  I’ve done it, and I’ll be damned if it got me up to anything resembling a target heart rate.

Yoga’s great for some things for some people.  But the way it’s touted like a cure-all bothers me.  It’s attractive because it’s easy, but that also means it’s going to be hard for people to reach fitness targets with it.

Comment #44: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/23  at  10:15 PM

paul @29: you mean, why didn’t he leave, and in part it’s because his own mother apparently saw nothing untoward about the coach’s treatment. Yes, I get what you’re saying about how abuse is an accepted part of sports, but Mom wasn’t the abuse victim; her son was.

Comment #45: mythago  on  06/23  at  10:16 PM

One of the schools in my area of West Texas actually banned try outs for teams. If you wanted to join, you were on, and they had to find something to do with you (though they weren’t forced to start you).  The sky did not fall.  On the contrary—-the fact that they had like 40 cheerleaders made their games way more fun.  The notion that kids don’t learn how dark and cutthroat the world is without adults shoving it on them is a fallacy.  What kids don’t learn enough of is egalitarian values, finding ways to accept differences, and learning to get along.  We need more, not less of that.  If fucking West Texas can figure it out, no one else has an excuse.

Comment #46: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/23  at  10:22 PM

Don’t entitled people in general annoy us?

(Well, they annoy me.)

The whole “people who feel entitled do better” is something that bothers me, because most people who feel entitled piss me the fuck off. (But they do tend to do better. I know people who have had novels published because they felt entitled to have their parents pay for everything for 10 years while they established themselves.)

Comment #47: LC  on  06/23  at  10:26 PM

I’m also curious what actual doctors have to say about simple stretching as your sole form of exercise.

I’m not sure yoga is necessarily just simple stretching. I only do a few poses in the morning to mostly, yes, stretch my lower back, but I’ve observed that a lot of poses can involve some demanding muscular work. Downward Dog, for example, is one that can leave my upper arms sore and Tree Pose can work my inner thighs and core muscles. My understanding from friends way more into yoga than I am is that one of its benefits is how you can make it more or less demanding depending on how deeply you go into your poses.

If yoga bores you, though, obviously none of that matters. Boring is in the eye of the beholder. I like dancing better anyway.

Comment #48: kristin  on  06/23  at  10:31 PM

Yoga’s easy? I’ve done classes from time to time and it has not always been easy.

Some of those positions are brutally hard and require lots of core strength to pull off and hold. I don’t think it tends to do lots of cardiovascular benefit, but I’ve certainly been in yoga classes that left me sweating and exhausted that weren’t the hot-box whatever it is where they have the temperature up at 110 degrees or what have you.

It’s definitely a slow, contained exercise, though, not a “run around and ecstatically move your body” one. (Well, at least I’ve always found it to be, maybe there is a “jump around” yoga style somewhere.)

Comment #49: LC  on  06/23  at  10:31 PM

Nobody “doesn’t make” the school paper or the French club.  If you play an instrument, you can join the band, or if you don’t, then you won’t (and my h.s. band had plenty of spots for kids who weren’t that musically inclined but still wanted to be involved).

Depends on the school and its culture. 

While my high school’s French club is as you described, you had to both be a great writer and have friends there to “make” the school paper.  As for the high school orchestra, though they say it is “open to all”, in practice….trying to join is more akin to auditioning for a place at a highly competitive conservatory….unless you can sing or play extremely well…you have no chance.  Only exception to that was if you happen to possess a male tenor voice as they seem to be short of male singers….especially considering most male students would avoid this either because “singing’s for girls” or for the few male classmates who didn’t subscribe to that…..singing for an orchestra was considered the worst in being “uncool” and something “teacher’s pets” and “school asskissers” would do.

Comment #50: exholt  on  06/23  at  10:32 PM

I’m also curious what actual doctors have to say about simple stretching as your sole form of exercise.

It depends what kind of yoga you do.  There are variations that ARE cardio, or a combination of cardio and strength training.  More traditional variations really are just nice relaxing stretching.  No, you’re not going to lose weight doing the latter - but there are no claims that you will.

Comment #51: The Opoponax  on  06/23  at  10:36 PM

Amanda, yoga is more than simply stretching, I would suggest you prove that for yourself by finding and doing some simple slow-breathing techniques as outlined here:

The available data indicate that yogic slow breathing practices promote dominance of the parasympathetic system, can help control stress, and can contribute to treatment programs for some chronic diseases.  Basic research is needed on yogic rapid breathing and alternate nostril breathing techniques.  Yogic claims about nasal airflow laterality and cognitive laterality have partial support.  Psychological factors such as anxiety and distraction, as well as the physical details of breathing techniques, are important variables in psychophysiological research on respiratory practices.

Comment #52: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/23  at  10:38 PM

“I don’t entirely understand why there’s such a thing as “not making the team” at the high school level.  I mean, either it’s something you’re interested in doing, or it’s not.  Nobody “doesn’t make” the school paper or the French club.”

My high school had about 5,000 students while I was there.  And the school paper was a class, not a club.  There very much *was* such a thing as not making it.  Only juniors were writers, and there were only 20-30 of us.  Only seniors were editors, and there were only 5 or so of them.  (no, I’m not still bitter…)

I completely agree with everything in the original post, and I definitely think there should be more opportunities for high school age students to participate in team sports without having to be focused on it.

However, can I just say that I’m amused by all this talk of “kids don’t play sports in high school because they plan to make a career of it!” simply because it was less than 12 hours ago that Landon Donavon - who used to play on one of the high school teams in my home town - helped make soccer history.

I think it points to the truth that, while most kids on the school newspaper and the school soccer team will not go on to have careers in those fields, there is something to be said for creating opportunities for teens to push themselves to start learning to do what they love at a more adult level.  For all that I wanted to make changes to how the high school paper was run - and still think I was right - I’d never want it to swing so far in the other direction that anyone could participate just by asking to do so.  I think the solution lies in creating a wide variety of opportunities, and - as someone else said - doing away with the stigma of playing sports for fun rather than to be the best.

Comment #53: jennygadget  on  06/23  at  10:38 PM

Some of the stretches in yoga are hard, and you can definitely challenge yourself.  I think it’s find as meditation or as a supplement to exercise that actually moves your body.  Some people do it intensely enough that it has some strength-training, but it’s really no substitute for cardiovascular exercise or strength-building that relies on resistance.  No medically reliable advice I’ve read on starting an exercise program touches on anything close to yoga.

Comment #54: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/23  at  10:38 PM

Oh, I’ve done yoga.  I heard soooooo much about it that I took the beginner class. That was insanely easy, so I did the next level.  That was hard in the sense of you held poses a little longer than were comfortable, but I wouldn’t say it was hard in the same way that weight-training is hard.  I took pilates next, and while that actually did seem to have some value in terms of strength-training, it still didn’t compare to brisk walking for getting your heart rate up.  By “easy”, I don’t mean the actual skill, which is formidable.  I mean in the way that you actually have to struggle to get into shape.  I’ve known people who do yoga every single day, and they’d have trouble riding a bike for very long and climbing stairs leaves them out of breath.  Which makes me skeptical.

Comment #55: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/23  at  10:42 PM

Yoga can totally suck and it can be monstrously good exercise. It all depends on the teacher and the atmosphere. Like I said above, I’m generally athletic and strong, and I’ve learned a shitload since I took up occasional yoga as a way to do exercise with my decidedly non-athletic spouse a few years ago. It may not be your personal piece of cake, but don’t knock it. Though the minute the teacher starts talking about third eyes and other assorted pseudo-religious bullshit, I’m right with you.

Comment #56: felagund  on  06/23  at  10:44 PM

Wait, Yoga’s EASY?  Jesus, Bakrim yoga kicked my ass (and quite a lot of other people). 

I finally found something physical to do that I don’t hate (not enjoy, just don’t actively hate).  Tai Chi, by myself or with Hubby, at home, taught by a DVD.  I’m probably never going to get extremely good at it this way, but at least I’m not embarrassing myself in public.

Comment #57: Antigone  on  06/23  at  10:45 PM

you had to both be a great writer and have friends there to “make” the school paper.  As for the high school orchestra, though they say it is “open to all”, in practice….trying to join is more akin to auditioning for a place at a highly competitive conservatory….unless you can sing or play extremely well…you have no chance.

I pretty much don’t agree with this stuff on the same level as I don’t agree with ultra-competitive high school sports.

Though I’ll also say that schools with extremely competitive orchestras or school papers tend to be ultra-competitive schools in the first place.  I went to a magnet school, and yes, you had to be a smidge more committed than the average bear to participate in certain activities (even so, I wouldn’t go as far as to say you “had to know someone” or had to be tracked to the pro level).  Most of those activities were part of class time, however—our orchestra was a course you took, not something you did after school for fun.  Most of the students participating in those sorts of courses had years of training behind them and were specifically attending the school because of the quality of those programs.  Quite a few of them work in those fields today* (and it is A LOT easier to find work related to music or theatre or journalism than it is to join the NFL). 

But the high school I attended which had 15 year olds using steroids to keep up on the football team?  The students were not expected to be exceptional in other ways.  It was just a typical high school.  And in that situation, yes, I really do think it ought to be as easy to make the basketball team as it is to make the chess club.

*I’d assume that the vast majority of high school athletes don’t even become high school coaches.

Comment #58: The Opoponax  on  06/23  at  10:46 PM

I wouldn’t say it was hard in the same way that weight-training is hard.

You’ve never taken a vinyasa or bikram or ashtanga class, have you?

Granted, I’m not the most physically fit person ever, but there’s one mid-level vinyasa class I go to occasionally where my goal is to get through just one class, someday, without collapsing in a pool of sweat in the middle.  It’s not even considered to be a particularly challenging studio or anything, either.

Comment #59: The Opoponax  on  06/23  at  10:48 PM

No, maybe I’m not being fair.  I’m far from some super athlete or anything, so I’m sure that if it’s hard for you, it’d be hard for me.  But I really did try to take on yoga of various sorts in the day, and felt cheated, because I hadn’t had a real workout, but whoops!  Now I didn’t have time for one.

Comment #60: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/23  at  10:52 PM

And the school paper was a class, not a club.

Exactly.

My high school theatre department was a class, not a club.  You had to audition before even being admitted to the school.  Only 8 students got to be in the biggest production each year - which there was a separate audition for above and beyond the auditions you had to participate to get into the theatre department in the first place. 

But at an ordinary high school for unexceptional students where it’s not assumed that you want to be in the school play because you want to be on Broadway?  The schools where theatre is a just a fun activity to do after school?  If you want to be in the play, they find a place for you.  Even if you only get one line.  Yet it’s assumed, in sports above the pee-wee level, that you have to be accepted to even join the team.  And, again, these aren’t elite sports academies, or a few huge schools where the demand far outstrips equipment or coaching capacity.

Comment #61: The Opoponax  on  06/23  at  10:55 PM

I sorta thought yoga was like weight lifting except I was using my own body instead of weights. (I did ashtanga yoga once a week for a year in addition to a weight lifting and cardio routine. I was in the best shape of my life during this time, but man, the yoga totally kicked my ass.)

Comment #62: PixelFish  on  06/23  at  10:58 PM

OTOH, yoga has been shown to have medically measurable effects in people with a chronic illness, so I have no trouble it might have benefits for people who don’t have a chronic illness:

Randomized controlled trial of yoga and exercise in multiple sclerosis
........................................................................
Results: Sixty-nine subjects were recruited and randomized. Twelve subjects did not finish the 6-month intervention. There were no adverse events related to the intervention. There were no effects from either of the active interventions on either of the primary outcome measures of attention or alertness. Both active interventions produced improvement in secondary measures of fatigue compared to the control group: Energy and Fatigue (Vitality) on the SF-36 and general fatigue on the MFI. There were no clear changes in mood related to yoga or exercise.

Conclusion: Subjects with MS participating in either a 6-month yoga class or exercise class showed significant improvement in measures of fatigue compared to a waiting-list control group. There was no relative improvement of cognitive function in either of the intervention groups.

Comment #63: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/23  at  11:01 PM

Yeah, sure, you can do yoga every single day at a level that’s easy, just simple relaxing stretches, and not build any strength at all. That doesn’t mean it’s not good exercise. You can amble casually down the street every day at a leisurely pace and not get any real cardio benefits, and it doesn’t negate the fact that walking properly is excellent cardio exercise.

I think the deal with yoga is that it’s exactly as challenging as you make it, by being mindful of your body and aware of how much your muscles are being made to work and how and why and for how long. My friends that are yoga devotees love yoga for exactly this reason—they are intensely mindful people who thrive on the challenge of being so aware of their bodies and how far they’re pushing themselves. And at least one of them is a total workout junkie who also strength trains and runs and she still finds a good yoga class at the correct level to be a real challenge.

Comment #64: kristin  on  06/23  at  11:09 PM

The thing about yoga is that if you practice hatha yoga, which is the most common type in the US, you will not lose weight or build much if any substantial muscle tone.  But that’s not what hatha yoga is meant to do.

However, there are other yoga traditions which DO elevate the heart rate and provide strength training.  But those kinds are all HARD and stuff, and you’ll get sweaty.  Most people who want a hard, sweaty workout will just run and lift weights.

Comment #65: The Opoponax  on  06/23  at  11:09 PM

@ Thom @ #18.  I believe that’s why I put “IME” “generally” and “probably differs by league or region in there.”

Comment #66: phylosopher  on  06/23  at  11:14 PM

And Thom, re: soccer - yes, rec clubs are supposed to be for fun, but again, IME and in my region - that’s because over half the parent coaches have never played the game seriously if at all, thus don’t have their own egos vicariously tied to junior’s success.  Most aren’t vested even in their own city’s pro team.  And, they tend to be the parents, dad’s especially, who weren’t very good at the other sports like baseball, football or hockey and thus aren’t ex-jocks at all.

Comment #67: phylosopher  on  06/23  at  11:17 PM

I remember when I took up Tae Kwon Do in college.  The atmosphere was so positive and supportive, it was addictive.  The club was sponsored by the college, but anyone in the community could join,so we had to brothers, one ten years old and the other thirteen, in the club (I think that was their ages when they started, but since this is thirty years ago, they could have been those ages when I graduated), and a local girl who was sixteen when I graduated, the sister of a local woman who was in grad school there.  The attitude was always, “Everyone starts off at the same skill level and all you have to do to improve is come to practice as often as you can make it.  Practice will take care of the rest:  conditioning, skill, etc.”  That’s exactly what happened.  We worked out hard, and were expected to work every minute for the hour to an hour and a half that we were there, but nobody was pushed to do more than they could, everyone looked out for everyone else, and teaching the lower belt levels was expected.  The three years I practiced with that club were the best three years of my life in many regards.

Comment #68: DBK  on  06/23  at  11:17 PM

Well, but you’ve got to admit, it’s really not practical to have 60 players on a basketball team . . .

Comment #69: rea  on  06/23  at  11:18 PM

Again Oppo @ 27 - what?  17 y o DO play rat hockey and in men’s leagues, and park volleyball, and club fencing - yes, fencing and archery, and what about the basketball hoop in every driveway and park - oh yeah, and tennis also in parks, and now lots of volleyball courts are up, and in my area 17 y o still have a U18 soccer….so maybe it’s a regional difference, but these things are out there.

I’d also mention things like equestrian sports, though I’m sure you’ll point out that’s elitist, though it isn’t in many areas of the country.

Comment #70: phylosopher  on  06/23  at  11:24 PM

I think you’re taking “everyone gets a trophy” much more literally than anyone else here.  “Everyone gets a trophy” as a sports philosophy does not actually mean that every single person is handed a physical object in the shape of a trophy.
Comment #31: Mnemosyne on 06/23 at 08:42 PM

Gee, you’d better tell that to my kids, one of whom finished spring (recreational) soccer last weekend, came home, said “look another one” with very little emotion and popped the medal in the trash.  We’d just had a cleaning out of a) the collection of barely worn sports team jerseys - nnot T-shirts, but more expensive jerseys that most leagues think are de rigeur for playing - with child’s name for an extra $3 of course, in baseball it’s hats too and socks, and the end of season “participation” trophy.  2-3 sports, per kid, per year, in 5 years that’s something like 15 trophies, x 2 kids, that’s 30 meaningless trophies.  So yeah - it is literal.  We all decided spouse and self included, that unless it was a “real trophy” for an actual accomplishment “most improved in T-ball” included, they would get trashed.  The waste is ridiculous.  SO yeah - everyone gets a trophy is practiced literally - I have the landfill to prove it.

Comment #71: phylosopher  on  06/23  at  11:34 PM

I have often heard people express fears about going to the gym. This strikes me as odd. I have been around gyms and gym culture since…age 15. A decade. In the very, very off chance I actually notice another human being at the gym, my only thought is “Good job.” Of course, I really never pay attention to other people at the gym. In my experience this is true of 99.9% of the people lifting.

Give trophies to everyone or no one: it won’t matter. Kids are not as dumb as you might think. They can quite easily separate the winners from the losers. It is the peer group that has ultimate power, not the parents/teachers.

Comment #72: John Joel Glanton  on  06/23  at  11:36 PM

@ #34 agreed there Opo, but it’s their job - seriously - my school district just cut teachers, but hired a $94K (@ 3 teachers salaries) athletic director.  And when I discussed my kid being accelerated a grade, I was told by the obviously non-athletic curriculum director, that he always argued against it, because, then the kid couldn’t play sports competitively - even though it’ s a waaaaay too big school and only 10% of the kids actually make any size matters teams.  Really fucked up.

Comment #73: phylosopher  on  06/23  at  11:39 PM

Well, but you’ve got to admit, it’s really not practical to have 60 players on a basketball team . . .

True, but you have Junior Varsity and club level sports for that, as well.

I admit that this is hard in a high school with 5000 people, but it’s a good demonstration of why high schools of such large size are not good ideas. My high school was a tenth of the size, and there was just no way, even if you created a big club-level or intramural program that you could create ten times as many opportunities to pay football.

Part of the problem is that athletics are treated as an opportunity for the small community of “athletes” within the school rather than something that is expected that one should participate in as part of your education spent in class, engaging in the arts, and participating in athletics on the field, even if it’s just the ability to do a 10-12 minute mile while jogging or hit a ball back on forth in tennis.

Comment #74: Tyro  on  06/23  at  11:45 PM

Amanda, how large was your HS?

Comment #75: phylosopher  on  06/23  at  11:45 PM

@ jennygadget @ #53 - but most colleges universities seem to do this.  Both Club and intramural tournies of all kinds abound at the schools I’ve been affiliated with.  Soccer, basketball, baseball, floor hockey - heck even a “cornhole” tourney on my school website. IIRC we even have a benchpress competition.

Comment #76: phylosopher  on  06/23  at  11:51 PM

When I participated in youth sports (Soccer and Little League, to be exact) there wasn’t much in the way of harsh coaches or anything like that. There was the occasional player (though from what I saw, mercifully few of those parents) who took things too seriously and you could sometimes tell the other team was ‘in it to win it’.

I’d probably cop to the opinion that it probably could’ve been a more supportive environment, but I don’t remember seeing any kind of abuse.

But I have to at least disagree with the concept of rewarding the kids for participating. At least depending on the level of the reward. Verbal encouragement and the like? Sure. But I always chaffed at the thought that I was being condescendingly rewarded just for showing up. It felt insulting somehow. (I admit I’m probably not ‘normal’ as far as that went back then.)

For example, I’d be against giving a trophy. Even the most small ‘statue on a wood block’ trophy. Give ‘em a ribbon or a certificate or something. But trophies are for ‘winners’. Participation trophies felt hollow.

Otherwise, at that young an age, say pre-junior high/middle school, it should be about the fun. Play to win, but realise it’s just a game. The higher levels are already waiting to crush the participants with how much it’s SRS BSNS.

Comment #77: Santa Claustrophobia  on  06/23  at  11:53 PM

I took pilates next, and while that actually did seem to have some value in terms of strength-training, it still didn’t compare to brisk walking for getting your heart rate up.

Well, duh.  That’s because it’s not an aerobic exercise.  It’s strength and flexibility training.  There are some forms of yoga and Pilates that can give you an aerobic workout in addition to the strength and flexibility benefits, but it’s not really the point.  Did you give up on lifting weights because it didn’t compare favorably to walking when it came to getting your heart rate up?

Aerobic fitness isn’t everything.  If you have a low resting heart rate but you’re too inflexible to bend over and touch your toes, you are going to have problems with your joints.

Comment #78: Mnemosyne  on  06/23  at  11:54 PM

Opo, one more time - not sure where you are, but where I am for hockey at least, there is a parallel private system to the school one, which is called “house” - no tryouts, and everyone plays -though you do have to pay.  “Peewee” a term you keep using, is a specific age designation - 11-12 y o.  But there are “house” leagues through age 19 in some rinks - then it’s men’s (beer) league.

Comment #79: phylosopher  on  06/24  at  12:04 AM

Tai Chi, by myself or with Hubby, at home, taught by a DVD.  I’m probably never going to get extremely good at it this way, but at least I’m not embarrassing myself in public.

Judging by what I see here in Los Angeles, if you ever did go public, you’d be surrounded by Chinese and Japanese senior citizens so, really, no one would even notice you.

Comment #80: Mnemosyne  on  06/24  at  12:04 AM

Gee, you’d better tell that to my kids, one of whom finished spring (recreational) soccer last weekend, came home, said “look another one” with very little emotion and popped the medal in the trash.

Yes, because the way your specific kid’s soccer league does things is exactly the way it is in the entire country, so clearly those of us talking about how kids should be encouraged to do things even if they’re not very good at it actually mean they should physically hand out soccer medals after every game.

Sheesh.

Comment #81: Mnemosyne  on  06/24  at  12:16 AM

But at an ordinary high school for unexceptional students where it’s not assumed that you want to be in the school play because you want to be on Broadway?  The schools where theatre is a just a fun activity to do after school?  If you want to be in the play, they find a place for you.

Nope. My high school was pretty damn ordinary, but if you didn’t start getting roles in your first semester, and showing the drama director that you were Serious About Theater, theater was never going to have a place for you. Even the chorus was highly competitive. I don’t know that they ever produced a successful actor/singer/director, but they sure acted like the next stop was Steppenwolf.

Schools are fucking brutal, man.

Comment #82: Well, what?  on  06/24  at  12:35 AM

Wow Mnemo, that’s cute - yeah, my own experience is that it’s a literal ” every kid gets a trophy” in every sport my kids have participated in.  You claim that I’m silly for thinking the poster meant it literally when - gee, I have the physical evidence, yep, at least in my part of the country.  And in other parts, as I’ve seen it written about in the various national publications that come with some of the league fees. And when you mention that this is an expense that could be done away with, other parents look at you as if you have three heads. 

What I’m telling you is that it does get taken WAY TOO FAR.  ANd yeah, I’m very willing to hear that this is a midwest phenomena, though I don’t think so, also judging by the trophy/medal/memorabilia ads in those national mags for “making every member of your team feel special.”
American capitalism at work - make a kid feel good by praising him/her for effort and we’ll find a way to profit from it.

And how about the photos? No wonder some kids and parents fantasize about pro careers - it’s a fricking six week rec league and there’s the mandatory team professional team photo with the optional magnet/frontpage/cereal box mock ups.  Hello, this is BIG business exploiting kids games. Get it?

But really - you aren’t guilty of thinking that the way?  That since in your experience there are no literal participation trophies that is the way it is everywhere?

Comment #83: phylosopher  on  06/24  at  12:54 AM

“When you’re an adult and trying to work up enthusiasm for putting on your sneakers and going for a run, you’re not going to get there convincing yourself it doesn’t count unless you’re an Olympian.  You need to reward yourself just for getting out there and trying.”

Amanda, this is excellent.  I stand firm as a proponent of moderation; trophies and parties for just showing up are just as ridiculous an extreme as the aggressive, competitive approach that I feel, at least when I was in the target age group, was far more common than the latter.  This exemplifies that idea; that the failure of one extreme isn’t a mandate for its polar opposite.

I remember in little league, they’d take us out for pizza even if we lost; not because we just showed up but because we tried.  We played, if not to win, then to play.  Obviously that doesn’t deserve a ticker tape parade, but it does deserve some recognition and tremendous encouragement.

Comment #84: nekouken  on  06/24  at  01:04 AM

Amazing that this just occurs on my kids soccer team:
http://www.certificatespecialists.com/participation_trophies.htm

but that the Boston Globe had an article about it a few years ago:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/02/23/what_happens_when_everyones_a_winner/

And more recently Slate:
http://www.doublex.com/blog/xxfactor/enough-trophy-kid-talk

and another interesting one:
http://ezinearticles.com/?Just-Say-No-to-Participation-Trophies&id=3381772

Sheesh - all these folks interested in something occurring only on my kid’s soccer team.

Comment #85: phylosopher  on  06/24  at  01:04 AM

God, phylosopher, shut up. Mnem never said it didn’t happen anywhere, she said just because it happens on your kids’ team doesn’t mean it happens EVERYWHERE.

I also have never heard of leagues or teams giving out literal trophies or medals for everyone who participates. Mr Kristin has never heard of them. Around here they give out certificates.

Are there leagues that give everyone a literal trophy? Obvs, since your kids’ leagues do it. Does it happen everywhere? Obvs, no.

Are there industries that would benefit if the norm became for every league/team to require or give out huge tons of crap for everything? Well, yeah. Is there currently an advertising/publicity push by those industries to normalize more and more of that stuff? Looks like it. Does that mean it currently *IS* the norm in most places? Nope.

It’s not that damn complicated, I swear.

Comment #86: kristin  on  06/24  at  01:24 AM

amanda @ 38, story of my life.  i avoided all forms of organized physical activity and even stuff i could do on my own that didn’t require my coordination for years when i got out of middle school just to escape all the years i spent in elementary and middle school, being a “non-athlete.”  i thanked my stars every day in high school, even with a grueling 10-hour outdoor practice, that marching band counted for PE credits at my high school so i would never, ever be subjected to gym class again. 

i’m 29 and even now i sometimes when i have what i feel has been a particularly awesome and productive workout, i get a twinge of “yeah but you’re really not GOOD—you’re not one of THOSE kids!” creep up in my brain and i have to snap myself out of it.  my boyfriend has referred to me as both a “jock” and a “fitness nut” several times since i have begun to really enjoy running, weights and my most recent fitness obsession (the bar method) and it never ceases to be funny to me to hear it because i’ve just never been labeled that way, ever.  these old wounds are deep, i concur.  i think i would have enjoyed gym class a lot more growing up if it hadn’t been so jock-culture/competitive/team sports oriented, for sure.

Comment #87: chareth cutestory  on  06/24  at  01:26 AM

also, i would probably rather swallow staples than play on a company softball team, even a laid-back, just-for-fun kind of team.  in fact, now that i think about it, i quite possibly bonded with my best friend over our mutual loathing of our gymnastics teacher.  in kindergarten.  it was already that bad and we were FIVE.

Comment #88: chareth cutestory  on  06/24  at  01:30 AM

Right on time, Kristin - phylosopher posted - once upon a thread, phylosopher proved you wrong -  jump on the moneky pile - really does your mommy know you’re up so late using her computer? 

Articles in major newspapers - from coast to coast addressing the “rising use of participation trophies,” that the term itself exists and has now become a pejorative points to wides spread use - but Kristin as done a survey of her household and found that no one there has heard of it, so it must not exist!  Kristin, you’d be willing to say the sun didn’t exist if I said it did - then as your proof, you’d claim you looked out the window - at midnight - and didn’t see it.

Comment #89: phylosopher  on  06/24  at  01:46 AM

I edit the sports page for a local paper, which covers everything from U7 sports to collegiate, and one day I came across a story on sixth grade football that talked about standing rivalries between the kids from their “youth football days.”  In sixth grade.  These kids are 11 and 12.  They haven’t had enough days to have had “days!”

The distinctions between club sports and travel teams here seem to be of degree rather than kind.  From the outside, our sports culture seems like a huge success, churning out college players in the high school end game like mad.  But the vast majority that don’t get into college through a sports program?  What’s the benefit for them?

Comment #90: realityfighter  on  06/24  at  01:50 AM

no one there has heard of it, so it must not exist!

Yeah! When I said “Are there leagues that give everyone a literal trophy? Obvs, since your kids’ leagues do it” I totally meant that it never happens at all. Good job!

Comment #91: kristin  on  06/24  at  01:52 AM

maybe it’s a regional difference, but these things are out there.

I never said that casual sports opportunities for young people don’t exist, simply that they’re not nearly as apparent and thick on the ground as they are for small children.  Or that they should be for everyone, everywhere. 

And, sure, you’re right that parks exist (and some of them have decent infrastructure for organized team sports), and that sporting goods stores sell basketball nets and tennis rackets and such.  I probably could have gone to the pool at the Y and swam laps on my own terms every day after I quit the swim team.  Most kids need a little more structure than that, though - unless you’re really athletically inclined, “sports equipment exists” isn’t necessarily enough to motivate you. 

Casual, non-competitive* team sports that are more focused around having fun and getting a little exercise, though - that would actually have been pretty great.

* I knew people who played sports outside the high schools, as a teenager.  Most of those leagues were as competitive as the varsity leagues, if not moreso.  The local U17 soccer teams were worse than the high schools, because they recruited the kids who really DID have World Cup dreams.

Comment #92: The Opoponax  on  06/24  at  02:01 AM

showing the drama director that you were Serious About Theater

Well, duh.  I don’t know if my experience was typical, but most of the time if you wanted to participate meaningfully in an extracurricular activity, especially one where access was at a premium, you had to show some level of legitimate interest.  Why give the lead role in the school play to some kid who doesn’t even give a shit and probably isn’t going to show up for half the rehearsals?

I don’t think it’s a lot to ask of any teenager that they show a serious interest in the activities they take on.  But I think there’s a big difference between being expected to show a certain level of commitment, and creating a toxicly competitive environment that sucks all the fun of participating in something that, for most people, will never be anything more than a hobby.

Comment #93: The Opoponax  on  06/24  at  02:09 AM

My older daughter does Park & Rec gymnastics.  That means practice once a week (or twice, during meet season) and six weeks of once-a-week meets, which are not really competitive, exactly.  You do a routine and get scores and comments from outside evaluators, and you can move up through the levels as you master new skills.

She loves it.  She was delighted to receive a participation medal this spring (it may get old after a few more seasons) and is really proud of the skills she’s developed.  She thinks of herself as an athlete, and I think that’s great.

I clicked over to read the article and the first line observes that 70% of kids quit youth sports by 14.  Here’s the thing: at 14, you start high school.  My kids Park & Rec gymnastics program only goes through 8th grade.  I looked up the high school we’re zoned for a few weeks back, and noted that they have a gymnastics team.  It practices every day for several months.  In addition to being an athlete, my kid is a math genius; there’s an excellent program at the local university for the math genius kids.  It is a serious time commitment and meets one evening a week.  I am not sure the gymnastics practice schedule is compatible with the math program.  It’s certainly not compatible with being in a school play, or joining any of the other clubs, or having much of a life, actually, outside the team.  I think when it comes down to it, she’s likely to ditch gymnastics at 14, even if she’s stuck with it to that point.

I love having the park & rec option for sports, though.  They’re all casual, accessible, affordable, and close by. 

And I totally do not understand the people who think that kids need to LOSE AT TEAM SPORTS in order to grasp that THEY ARE NOT THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE.  There are many ways in which kids learn this life lesson, even if the losers get the same trophy/medal/certificate/handshake/pizza party as the winners.

Comment #94: Naomi  on  06/24  at  02:13 AM

Right Kristin, Add ” recognizing sarcasm” to your list of endeavors in which you are deserving of a participation trophy.

Comment #95: phylosopher  on  06/24  at  02:15 AM

I also have never heard of leagues or teams giving out literal trophies or medals for everyone who participates.

I actually remember this happening.

Once.

When I was in first grade.  Playing at the youngest possible level of our local rec soccer league.  When you’re 6, you’re really too young to understand “Sorry, kid, trophies are only for winners.  And, because your rinky-dink team only won 5 games instead of the required 6 to get to the quarterfinals, you are officially a loser.” 

I mean, these were not gigantic statuesque taller-than-the-kid championship trophies.  Just a little plastic doo-hickey on a block of wood.  And it felt amazingly super awesome to get one.  Mostly because, when you’re 6, showing up for practice every week and a game every weekend and actually paying attention and not crying or spazzing out, really is kind of an achievement. Shit, half of the fun of being on the soccer team was that you got a snack at halftime.  You’re fucking 6 years old.  And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with saying that.

Comment #96: The Opoponax  on  06/24  at  02:18 AM

I totally do not understand the people who think that kids need to LOSE AT TEAM SPORTS in order to grasp that THEY ARE NOT THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE.  There are many ways in which kids learn this life lesson, even if the losers get the same trophy/medal/certificate/handshake/pizza party as the winners.

But, but! If we don’t punch them for being great big losers how will they be correctly broken to paying obeisance to their betters as adults?

Comment #97: kristin  on  06/24  at  02:19 AM

C’mon Opo, isn’t that idea about swimming showing a pretty narrow mindset compared to what Amanda’s original point was?  You don’t have to swim laps to get benefit from a pool.  I seem to remember having a great time and getting tons of exercise from tag, treading water, diving for bricks, just diving.  My kids usually spend a day or two of vacation at public pools with slides which they climb endlessly, slide, swim repeat, or rafts to jump from.  Or informal races with a friend - so yeah, not sure why you’d want to impose such a seemingly tight structure.  If not to compete - why learn the butterfly anyway?  Freestyle works just fine, and is a heckuva lot more comfortable and efficient. 

And of course there are fewer opportunities fro teens - time is one reason - and interests competing for their time.  The number of available kids is spread out over more activities in other words.

Comment #98: phylosopher  on  06/24  at  02:24 AM

This is why I quit playing softball in high school. All of a sudden it stopped being something fun I could do once or twice a week and became something grueling I was expected to do every single day. An assistant coach reduced me to tears in front of all my teammates, and this was in little league. LITTLE LEAGUE.

I will never understand the concept of shaming students in front of their peers for not being as good at something. When my Design “professor” (I use the term very loosely) laughed at me and held up my Drawing Journal so that everyone could see how terrible my sketches were, it did not make me go home and practice my drawing; it made me hate drawing, which I used to kind of enjoy, or at least do a lot(even if I wasn’t any good). When I teach, I make a point not to engage in this kind of thing, because I think it’s neither healthy, effective, nor nice.

Comment #99: stonebiscuit  on  06/24  at  02:28 AM

Like others have said, it’s not only athletics where this happens…I decided to quit marching band before my freshman year because I hated the summer practices and parades in 100-degree weather and wanted to play music, not march.  When I called the band director to let him know, he yelled at me for several minutes about how I had ruined his carefully-worked-out plans for the halftime shows and then hung up on me.

Thankfully, I found out about the junior college community band, which turned out to be one of the best parts of my high school years, but I’ve never forgiven that band director for screaming at me like he did.

Comment #100: Storm at Sea  on  06/24  at  02:36 AM

And I totally do not understand the people who think that kids need to LOSE AT TEAM SPORTS in order to grasp that THEY ARE NOT THE CENTER OF THE UNIVERSE.  There are many ways in which kids learn this life lesson, even if the losers get the same trophy/medal/certificate/handshake/pizza party as the winners.
Comment #94: Naomi on 06/24 at 01:13 AM

Sorry Naomi, if it were only sports, OK.  But it’s across the board - social promotion at grade schools leads to kids who get to college and are surprised they are required to read/write/think coherently in order to get a good grade.  Juvenile justice systems that offer slap on the wrist reprimands. Extravagant birthday parties.

LIke I said - I see the point at young ages - but there seems to be a creep - first it was the U6 (good idea…soooo cute), then the U8 (well OK)  at U10 it was, really?  now at U 12?  They’ve got to be kidding right?  but one parent claimed -OK made a big stink per the league board member - that their child would be disappointed because she had received them in the past and wanted to be able to have a “complete set” for her years in soccer - and the board caved.

Comment #101: phylosopher  on  06/24  at  02:37 AM

I admit that this is hard in a high school with 5000 people, but it’s a good demonstration of why high schools of such large size are not good ideas. My high school was a tenth of the size, and there was just no way, even if you created a big club-level or intramural program that you could create ten times as many opportunities to pay football.

5,000 would be considered a small-medium sized high school by the NYC board of ed standards up until I graduated in the mid-1990s.  There were quite a few mainstream NYC public schools where the student population approached or even exceeded 20,000 students. 

The one I attended had a total student population of around 3,000….tiny by NYC board of ed standards. 

Judging by what I see here in Los Angeles, if you ever did go public, you’d be surrounded by Chinese and Japanese senior citizens so, really, no one would even notice you. </blockquote

It is mostly the same from what I’ve seen in and around NYC, though the numbers of non Asian/Asian-American senior citizens has been rising to the point that seeing non-Asians/Asian-Americans and people under the age of 50 is becoming more normalized…though they are still a minority of Tai chi practitioners. 


<blockquote>my boyfriend has referred to me as both a “jock” and a “fitness nut” several times since i have begun to really enjoy running, weights and my most recent fitness obsession (the bar method) and it never ceases to be funny to me to hear it because i’ve just never been labeled that way, ever.

I’ve had similar experiences of friends calling me a “jock” for taking 1-4 mile walks almost daily…even on hot summer days and sometimes carrying items such as a 12-20 pound backpack full of books and laptop stuff. 

One difference is that though my friends meant well, I still internally take it as a degrading insult because in my formative years, being a “jock” was not only commonly associated with aspiring professional athlete classmates in junior high and college who pursued athletics at the expense of academics and tended to not be very bright, but also has violent criminality associated with it as the junior high jocks were commonly being arrested by the cops for crimes ranging from petty theft/vandalism to violent muggings.

Comment #102: exholt  on  06/24  at  02:46 AM

There is something to be said for creating opportunities for teens to push themselves to start learning to do what they love at a more adult level.

There are a lot of paths to start learning what you’d like to do as an adult.  And turning every activity into this competitive hierarchy where the most talented kids are the stars of the play, and everybody knows designing costumes is for failures who can’t take a hint, doesn’t really facilitate learning to do what you love. 

Instead it presents kids with a really narrow idea of what success is, or what kinds of options they really have.  As a kid who was interested in artsy stuff, especially related to performance, I really didn’t get the full picture of all the different careers that exist under that incredibly broad rubric.  Even when I was lucky enough to be one of the kids who could expect a part in at least a few productions every year.  I kind of thought that, if you wanted to do a performance-related thing, you had to do theatre, and if you did theatre, you had to be an actor.  I didn’t really get that there’s this whole world of media with all kinds of different jobs that need to be done, most of which have nothing to do with on-stage performance.

Comment #103: The Opoponax  on  06/24  at  02:48 AM

Ah, K-12 physical education, how do I loathe thee? Let me count the ways.

How about all those times I came home from school in tears? How about the clear memory I have of me sitting on the swings verbally resigning that every day I will be humilated at least once so there’s no point in expecting otherwise? How about the time the coach was lecturing about anorexia/bulimia, looked straight at me and said “Of course, there’s such a thing as eating too much too”? How about the time when we had a dance unit in a class with an odd number of students and I was forced to dance with a broom? How about the panic attack I experienced when I first went to physical therapy a month ago and saw all that gym equipment? How about how even now I can only run or exert myself if I’m absolutley sure no one is watching? How about how, seven years after high school gym ended forever, I still have such a shattered body image that I suspect I may be developing anorexia?

I guess what I’m trying to say is, I wasn’t the biggest Phys Ed fan.

Comment #104: kaje  on  06/24  at  02:58 AM

You don’t have to swim laps to get benefit from a pool.

Go back and read my original comment about quitting the swim team.  I didn’t say I never set foot in the pool again - I said I quit the swim team.  So to use your point that “basketball courts exist” - yes, I could have gone to the pool on my own a few times a week and continued to swim (in the way that you swim when you’re on a swim team, which is laps, not, like, playing Marco Polo).  But kids tend to thrive on structured activities; it never even occurred to me that I should keep up my swimming practice.  I just found new organized activities to participate in that I actually liked.  In the same way, the existence of a basketball court isn’t going to get kids out on the court after they’ve been burned by the psychotic atmosphere of competitive basketball.

Comment #105: The Opoponax  on  06/24  at  02:58 AM

There are a lot of paths to start learning what you’d like to do as an adult.  And turning every activity into this competitive hierarchy

Yeah, how would that competitiveness work in, say, shop class? What are the rubrics we would use to determine who’s talented enough to have access to the nailgun and the table saw? If your dado is off by 1/32 of an inch are you demoted to the second string and restricted to only using the buffer and sander? Do you have to show up every afternoon and on Saturdays for drill press drills or you’re not “committed enough to shop” to continue? Only the 2 or 3 kids who are the very best at lathe turning are allowed to build a completed project and the rest can go suck eggs?

It’s obvious that if you only let kids who are already good at building things into the shop, or mock and discourage everyone else, then you’ll be depriving the kids who need shop class the most. How come no one uses this reasoning when it comes to athletics?

Comment #106: kristin  on  06/24  at  03:02 AM

It is interesting that there is so much antipathy towards sports. I mean…childhood and adolescents? Just filled with so many wonderful and varied forms of humiliation! Not getting into the best classes, not making national merit, bad SATs, not getting into a prestigious college, not being dance royalty, not being in the top tier social group, being seen with your parents.

Comment #107: John Joel Glanton  on  06/24  at  03:10 AM

@stonebiscuit, #99 - interesting that you mention drawing.  That was something I was made to believe I “wasn’t good at” as a kid.  Though thankfully in a much less humiliating way - I just wasn’t encouraged to do it at all.

Over the past few months I’ve found myself drawing more and more, just for the enjoyment of it.  Or maybe sometimes to try to practice observing things, or to capture something my camera can’t.  Or just for something fun to do while I’m bored and waiting around.  And I’ve discovered that I really love it.  It’s one of the best casual creative outlets I’ve ever hit upon.  I’m actually glad I wasn’t considered gifted in visual arts as a kid, because now it’s wide open to me with very few preconceptions.

Comment #108: The Opoponax  on  06/24  at  03:12 AM

I admit that this is hard in a high school with 5000 people

Then again, in a high school with that many students, you could probably have an entire inter-school league if there was enough interest in it.  Or at least a couple or three teams, maybe at different skill levels.

And if the issue is that there isn’t enough equipment, not enough coaches, etc - then the issue is funding in the school district, not the fact that sports need to be carefully maintained as this elite activity that only certain kids get to do.  In a situation where you really can only allow 20-odd kids to play basketball out of a school of 5000, you might as well just abolish school sports due to the extreme poverty of the school district.  In a situation that dire, surely that money can be better spent elsewhere rather than giving 20 lucky kids the opportunity to throw a ball around a few afternoons a week.

Comment #109: The Opoponax  on  06/24  at  03:31 AM

5,000 would be considered a small-medium sized high school by the NYC board of ed standards up until I graduated in the mid-1990s.

Yes, I realize that this is considered the norm in many places, and it was the case for jennygadget. I was not mentioning schools of that size as though it were a hypothetical. I was saying that schools of that size aren’t a good idea if you want students to have a broad based experience of participation in academics, music, the arts, and athletics.

The example of wood shop was a good one: I was never going to be master furniture maker, but learning to use a band saw and a drill press was a great experience, and I didn’t have to suffer any ritual humiliation or “I am beginning to question you commitment to Sparkle Motion” guilt trips from the shop teacher if I didn’t take it the next year.

Comment #110: Tyro  on  06/24  at  08:32 AM

I think it does depend on the coaches and teachers and parents to instill a love for sport or activity rather than humiliate a kid so that it isn’t fun any more. I was very lucky to have supportive dance instructors through the teen years, so even today I’m not afraid to take a dance class. But volleyball? Not even a pickup game on the beach.

Is there certification for coaches ? I would think so at schools, but what about community sports?

I do miss archery—that was a sport I actually did well at, though it was only a few weeks each year.

Comment #111: Bethynyc  on  06/24  at  08:36 AM

When we moved to TX I was in elementary school.  The Little league there was highly competative and had been since my mother had been a kid.  I understand it still is.  And football?  Even more insane.  I really enjoyed my swim team, despite the very competative nature, because we had a really good coach who focused on self-improvement in practice and with interteam competition only in deciding who would repressent the team for meets.  The team was huge, but with events nearly every weekend year round, nearly everyone had a week were they were good enough of the group who could attend.
I had thought the hyper-competition was an anomaly because my small town WA sports had been pretty relaxed.  I have since seen the same sorts of things in WA, ID and MA.  The sports change and the level at which the attitudes become common place vary.  Even so, TX had the worst sports competition atmosphere.

Comment #112: helen w. h.  on  06/24  at  08:42 AM

What I’ve always wondered is why we are focusing on team sports as a way for kids to be healthy?

Call me a cynic, but I reckon it’s because we’re not actually interested in using sport as a way for kids to be healthy, but as a way to socialise them into accepting their assigned status in the social pecking order. The associated bullying is actually the main point.

Yeah, I fuckin’ hated PE at school.  Severe hay fever and undiagnosed incipient asthma, in association with an (also undiagnosed) ASD… It was pure hell. I still can’t quite shake my (deeply distasteful) desire to see my former PE teachers die a horrible and humiliating death.

Comment #113: Dunc  on  06/24  at  10:25 AM

I am so glad that I discovered as an adult that sport and exercise are two different things, because school physical education put me off the former for life. It didn’t help that it almost invariably involved both running and hand-eye co-ordination.

I’m congenitally incapable of catching a ball or hitting one with any kind of bat or stick, due to a combination of near-sightedness and severe astigmatism. This is mostly corrected by my glasses now, but the astigmatism was undiagnosed when I was at school. As for running, between the low blood pressure that has led to me passing out if I overdo it and the fact that I wear an F-cup bra, I am really not built for it. (I’m not sure there’s good enough sports bra on the planet.)

Luckily, I’ve discovered enough forms of physical activity I do enjoy to be a healthy adult - walking, Tai Chi and resistance training are all things I can do at my own pace without anyone throwing anything at my head.

Comment #114: AnneS  on  06/24  at  10:32 AM

kaje @ #104:  Yes.  Yes to all of it.  I hated any kind of physical activity in school, because it was a morass of fat-shaming and hate and humiliation - from the teacher.  And I was a child who climbed her first (gentle) mountain unassisted at 7, could walk three miles without blinking, and often hiked ten miles or more on weekends just because I liked it.  I loved to dance, and danced constantly when no-one was watching, and was amazing at dodgeball, being remarkably fast without appearing to be.

Did it matter?  No, because I was deemed fat, and fat kids are only there to be shamed.  Team sports were so bad that I used to fake injuries to get out of it.  I loved weight lifting and doubles tennis (I played tennis all my life up until HS), but anything else was a nightmare, because fat kids aren’t supposed to expose their fatty fatness to other people.

I love my body, and I love how it moves, even now that it’s disabled, but I regard any coach or PE teacher with undisguised hostility and fear, because all the one I have ever met (in two countries, no less) have been unequivocal in their fat hatred and their conviction that humiliation and shame are great motivators.  If anyone wants to know why more people don’t participate in active stuff, they need to be pointed at the sadistic trolls we put in charge of our kids’ athletic programs.

Comment #115: attack_laurel  on  06/24  at  10:45 AM

mythago:

they’re both abused. She’s complicit in his abuse, but it’s not (or not just) about the stupid. And what strikes me about it is not just the one parent whose kid finally quits, but the other 40 parents who encourage their kids to stick with it.

Comment #116: paul  on  06/24  at  10:54 AM

At forty I just started exercising. I have to do it at home, even the yoga. The thought that someone will see me exercising will cause me to stop for days. The locker room I change in for my daughter’s swim class fills me with such anxiety that all I can think about during her swim class is having to go back in there and change. It takes me at least two-three hours for my anxiety level to come down after we are done. I tried to do a yoga class once and the thought that people were seeing me exercising, especially with all the mirrors and I couldn’t have my back to a wall drove me out within ten minutes. All of this stems from k-12 PE. You managed to articulate something I’ve longed to articulate for others when they can’t understand my refusal to throw a ball in public. Good post.

Comment #117: dooflow  on  06/24  at  10:58 AM

However, I would disagree with the “everyone wins” approach.  Everyone doesn’t win in life and children have to learn that they won’t be good in everything and that they’ll have ups and downs in life.  This idea that we seem to have now that you did great just by participating is setting up kids to think they’ll be good at everything and not knowing how to handle defeat and the real world.  By doing otherwise, you spoil kids and then they grow up and freak out if they get a B here and there and when they come into the work force, they expect to be treated like they’ve accomplished something in the company, when they have not earned it. Kids have to understand how to handle disappointment and part of that is facing adversity and not crumbling under it.

I’ve seen this attitude so many places, and it’s utter bullshit.  It’s not about kids “learning how to handle defeat” or “spoiling” them, but about those with power over said kids wanting to reinforce a kyriarchic world-view where people need to be sorted into “winners” and “losers” so that they know their place.

An “everyone gets a trophy for participating” outlook doesn’t foster nearly as much of a sense of entitlement as the “winning isn’t everything, it’s the only thing” outlook, which then tells the “winners” that they are exceptional—in the sense that other rules don’t apply to them.

Comment #118: jfpbookworm  on  06/24  at  11:05 AM

What jfpbookworm said. Being normal doesn’t breed entitlement. Needing to “win” at any cost is what breeds entitlement. Here’s a hint. Your average successful person has WAY more entitlement issues than your not-so successful person. Just try telling them that they might have to take a step down or two, and watch the tears flow.

The scary thing of all this, is that it’s really not that much different than what happens with academics a lot of the time in schools. It’s not so much just the sports departments, it’s the whole idea of being “up or out”. Where you have to be on top or your basically worthless.

The unfortunate part of all this, is that for a lot of kids, it really is team sports or bust in terms of exercise. Expecting a kid to go for a walk in a sterile environment…it’s hard for adults. Impossible for a young teenager. I know my parents, when they were young, used to go out every day. Out in the woods messing about, or playing baseball in an empty field, or tag or whatever. By the time I reached that age (10-14ish), the woods were way too far to explore due to development, and most were private property at that, same with the empty fields, local people living there would call the cops if there was any noise going on there. Public parks were not to be used because kids playing there could damage the park, and made too much noise for (older) people who may have wanted to walk through it.

So by the end of my generation, all the traditions that get kids involved and active in a private-public fashion were pretty much destroyed. Yay. At least in my community, but it’s the same in a lot of places.

Comment #119: Karmakin  on  06/24  at  11:16 AM

Call me a cynic, but I reckon it’s because we’re not actually interested in using sport as a way for kids to be healthy, but as a way to socialise them into accepting their assigned status in the social pecking order. The associated bullying is actually the main point.

They seemed to have failed with the vast majority of college classmates and colleagues I’ve worked with, then.  With the vast majority, “jocks” may have been at the top of the pecking order in high school, but now fit the stereotype of folks whose lives peaked in high school and declined since.  And at the high school I attended, the “jocks” were the ones who were made fun of and teased for their supposed “intellectual deficiency” and “not being very smart”. 

A reason why there are probably plenty of libertarians in the IT/CS/engineering fields may be due to the experiences of being the nerds/geeks bullied by jocks in high school.  Once their professional lives surpassed that of their “jock” classmates who dropped out/flunked college, suffered a sports-related injury, never made it into the professional leagues, and end up having to work as unskilled manual laborers or end up on the welfare rolls…..they don’t want any of “their” tax dollars to subsidize these “ne-er do wells” who “deserve” whatever privations and sufferings life now offered them.  In short, social programs and welfare to them gets in the way of karmic payback they feel the now failing “jocks” so richly deserved. 

Though I do not agree to their extent, I’ll admit to having similar types of attitudes due to my associating the term “jock” not only with classmates obsessed with sports and completely ignoring their academics, but also violent criminality considering how it wouldn’t surprise me nearly all of the junior high jock classmates are now serving long sentences in various prisons like Rikers for their inclinations to commit muggings. 

I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve heard such sentiments from colleagues and friends in the IT/CS/engineering fields.

Comment #120: exholt  on  06/24  at  11:20 AM

Anyone else who’s bored with yoga might want to try pilates (caveat here: I’m an instructor.) Classes include all kinds of props to keep things interesting, including these sort of sideways trampolines, and the class atmosphere is completely different; while yoga tends to be all about you and looking inward through your individual practice, pilates classes are usually smaller and involve a lot of laughing and joking with the instructor.

It’s also really good for people working with injuries/disabilities, although if that’s you you want to go to a studio (instead of a gym—actually, no one should ever take a pilates class at a gym unless it’s the only option) and, if you can, find an instructor certified in the Stott method.

Like all exercise, it isn’t for everyone, but I believe in its power to do awesome things for most people. It’s also the great equalizer, jock-culture-wise; if you come in thinking you’re weak, I can show you that you’re secretly strong. If you come in with a swagger and a “I can do everything, I will boss you around to make me sweat, little girl!” ‘tude, I will make you cry.

Amanda, if you want cardio, you want a studio with a jumpboard class (that’s the sideways trampoline thing). In NYC there are tons of Stott studios; you’ll have a couple of private sessions first so the instructors can learn about your body/goals, and then they’ll make it happen.

(I’m a freaking pilates evangelist, guys, sorry. But, seriously. My scoliosis doesn’t cause pain anymore! It fixed my flat feet! I’m a believer.)

Comment #121: rhiain  on  06/24  at  11:25 AM

Although, to be totally honest, when I get a client in who says ze wants an aerobic exercise, I usually tell them to ride their bike to their next session; jumpboard classes are fun with a good group, but when I’m working individually the better value for their money is for me to correct their form while they do things more slowly, instead of me just counting while they jump around all ballistic-style. They can jump around ballistic-style for $20 a month at the gym.

(but but but, pilates has benefits for your breathing while doing aerobic exercise! So it’ll make swimming/biking/running easier!)

Okay, stepping away from the keyboard, because I’m getting a little too excited. I LOVE recruiting new clients, because it’s such an awesome body-awareness experience at the beginning, and… love.

Comment #122: rhiain  on  06/24  at  11:31 AM

And at the high school I attended, the “jocks” were the ones who were made fun of and teased for their supposed “intellectual deficiency” and “not being very smart”.

Exholt: I believe you’ve said before that your school culture was different (magnet school, or am I confusing that with someone else?)

It sounds like your school still had a winners/losers hierarchy, just one with different standards.

A reason why there are probably plenty of libertarians in the IT/CS/engineering fields may be due to the experiences of being the nerds/geeks bullied by jocks in high school.

Actually, I think it has to do less with the bullying and more with the same sort of superiority complex the jocks have - that they’re more deserving because they have a skill that most people don’t.  Like sports, STEM is seen as something which, if you can’t do it well, you shouldn’t do at all.  They’re drawn to libertarianism because they want a “meritocracy” where they’re regarded as having the most merit.

Comment #123: jfpbookworm  on  06/24  at  11:39 AM

Ah, PE. As Amanda says, wonder just how many out-of-shape adults are that way because of the humiliation brought on them by PE teachers. It wasn’t until I was 38 that I discovered I could compete against myself. So what if I ran a marathon in 5 1/2 hours? I did it.

While I wasn’t fat as a kid, in fact, just the opposite as a toothpick shrimp, I was uncoordinated and couldn’t catch or hit a ball to save my life. Even now if I see a kickball or volleyball, I break out in hives. I saw an article once where the PE teachers were making fun of the kids running 4 mph on the track and felt rage at them. At least the kids were making an effort. They’re getting exercise. Isn’t that what effing PE is supposed to be about. Aren’t you supposed to be teaching people to get fit, not be fit already?

Comment #124: louC  on  06/24  at  11:41 AM

An “everyone gets a trophy for participating” outlook doesn’t foster nearly as much of a sense of entitlement as the “winning isn’t everything, it’s the only thing” outlook, which then tells the “winners” that they are exceptional—in the sense that other rules don’t apply to them.

G has started getting me hooked on British comedy team Mitchell and Webb and they had a funny sketch where every kid in Britain starts automatically being given their A-levels, which are what you need to be admitted to college.  Let’s just say it turns out to not have anything to do with boosting the kids’ self-esteem and everything to do with who “should” be going to college (as in, not that black kid).

Comment #125: Mnemosyne  on  06/24  at  12:01 PM

PE was always brutal, in my experience. They’d just have you play a game, like basketball or volleyball, without explaining it to you, and if you were shitty at it, the coach would huff and puff about how you weren’t trying hard enough. Oh god, remember when they did that thing where they’d chose team captains and then the class would line up and they’d pick kids for their teams, one by one? Invariably the nerdy kids would get picked last, regardless of their athletic ability, and it was so, so humiliating. I remember some of the nerdy kids actually being pretty athletic, but it didn’t matter. I’ve always been pretty good at shooting baskets, for example, even though I’m not tall or fast or anything. Once we were playing a 3 on 3 game in junior high with the requisite minimal adult supervision that goes along with that, and after making my third basket in a row a girl on the opposing team slapped me across the face. Yay sports! So if you tried, or didn’t try, it would end up being a miserable experience for you either way. I don’t know if it’s as a direct result of those experiences or not, but I really don’t have a competitive bone in my body. I love being active but would much rather hike, jog, lift weights, or take a long bike ride or swim than play a competitive sport.

Comment #126: Jenny Dreadful  on  06/24  at  12:03 PM

Like sports, STEM is seen as something which, if you can’t do it well, you shouldn’t do at all.

Though there is the winners/losers mentality, another factor for this is the fact K-12 math and science standards in the US are so woefully inadequate that even being a topflight student with 4.0+ GPAs in STEM type courses at most well-off suburban public high schools and boarding schools is no guarantee that one will be prepared for the rigors of a college-level STEM curriculum, especially at topflight institutions such as MIT.  This is a reason why according to some friends who TAed classes at MIT, most of their students who had 3.9+ GPAs in high school STEM classes end up graduating from there with GPAs in the 2.2-2.5 range. 

Heck, many formerly topflight students with great high school STEM course GPAs had issues even maintaining 2.0 level grades in the CS and math courses I took at my undergrad college and at an Ivy summer program…..and those courses were such that they’d be regarded as a complete joke by my high school classmates or people who graduated from topflight STEM schools like MIT.

Many professors in STEM classes also deliberately pile on the work and grade on a mean curve as a way to “weed out” students who aren’t highly motivated and/or aren’t adequately prepared for the college-level curriculum due to the limits on professorial time and resources such as lab space and equipment.  A reason why nearly every STEM major said the introductory courses tended to feel much harder and had far more work than the mid-upper division courses.  It is not unheard of to have introductory STEM classes where over 50% of the students flunk the course. 

A rigor deemed necessary because they feel they had to prepare students well as one tiny mistake or error may result in catastrophic issues such as a collapsing bridge or building or a electronic or mechanical device that becomes a safety hazard for the public…..something which could harm their department’s and the Professors’ individual reputations.

Comment #127: exholt  on  06/24  at  12:08 PM

Phyl, I’ll try one more time, but I know how it is when you become absolutely fixated on a tiny detail and refuse to discuss anything else, so it’s probably a lost cause.

Some people—including you—are mocking the “trophy for participating” model of youth sports and insisting that the only way kids will learn that they’re total loo-sers is if their coaches make it clear that they’re totally untalented and a drag on the team.  The rest of us are trying to point out that there is a middle ground between the insincerity that your kid has picked up on with the participation medal and the dog-eat-dog, only experts need apply model that we’re trying to get away from.

I also found it fascinating that you’re ignoring the class issues and pretending that every kid in the juvenile justice system gets a slap on the wrist, as though there are no kids who are in prison for life without parole.  Yes, your middle-class white kids get medals for participating.  A lot of middle-class white kids do.  Shockingly, that’s not actually the experience of people who don’t fit into that description.

Comment #128: Mnemosyne  on  06/24  at  12:08 PM

I really do think a major problem with American K12 education is that we’re market-fixated - the only reason you learn art is either to be a consumer (Serious Art appreciation) or a Real Artist, not because diddling around making crafts and liking colors is a basic technique for living life. The only reason to learn dance is to be a Real Dancer or a part of the dance-consuming audience - forget social dance, which we don’t do anymore. And the only reason to play a sport or do organized athletics is because you want to be an Athlete, not because movement and even competition are basic parts of life. Though I want to throw in some extra hatred towards the Presidential Fitness Tests, at which a bunch of kids who might be able to do short, game-of-tag type sprints for hours without getting tired are made to run a mile exactly once a year and learn to associate Official Fitness with tasting blood, heaving stomachs, and being marked as a failure every. damn. year. with no attempt to improve the situation by teaching them how to run.

Yeah, I’m bitter.

I think the only reason why I keep trying with exercise is because I started taking a martial arts class as a kid that was multigenerational, and I had the example of adults sticking with something athletic not because they were going to somehow be professionals, or be the Best Ever In the World, but because they loved the process of doing it, they loved seeing improvement compared to where they were a year ago, they loved the sense of community, and they thought it was important to themselves as people to find something and try to learn to do it well. It was a really good experience; I wish more people had similar experiences.

Comment #129: purpleshoes  on  06/24  at  12:36 PM

One difference is that though my friends meant well, I still internally take it as a degrading insult because in my formative years, being a “jock” was not only commonly associated with aspiring professional athlete classmates

Well, at a certain point in your academic/professional life, your nerdy bona fides are going to be beyond question, and just because you run and lift weights or play in an adult soccer league, you can jokingly accept the “jock” status because everyone knows it’s not “real”. Part of growing up is realizing that you can do whatever you want without having to worry about the cultural baggage.

And the reason lots of CS/IT/engineering types adhere to the libertarianism of resentment ideology is in part because they thought they SHOULD be on top of the pile but watch their former classmates from high school who were on the lacrosse team making more money than they do in finance or consulting or sales.

In any case, ideally, exercise and athletics should be about building self confidence, because it really does work that way. After a workout where I’ve run a little farther, a little faster, and lifted a bit more weight than I did before, I feel like I’ve accomplished something. In competitive sports, driving yourself to get better is a good feeling when you see yourself improve while competing at a skill-appropriate level.  The problem is that I think a lot of coaches like to deal with players who are only like themselves in temperament and mindset and alienate others. I assume that the environment is better where teachers are expected to coach sports, as well.

Comment #130: Tyro  on  06/24  at  12:36 PM

Let’s not forget that there’s plenty of pressure on coaches, too.

My neighbor coached a seventh-grade basketball team. To hear him tell it, it was hell. Half the kids considered themselves LeBron Jameses in the making and threw shit fits, backed up by their parents, if they didn’t get enough playing time. That situation was aggravated by a lovely dollop of racial tension (he’s white and the team was about half nonwhite). Plus the team didn’t have much success—they were either winless or had one win, I forget which—and that made for a demoralizing experience. Mostly due to the lack of wins, he got little respect or support from above or below. He doesn’t think he’ll do it again next year, and I don’t blame him.

I’m not saying there aren’t asshole coaches—youth sports is lousy with them, God knows. I’m just saying coaches don’t have it easy by any means. There are a lot of competing pressures on them.

Comment #131: Bitter Scribe  on  06/24  at  12:37 PM

I do want to say that with the exception of the presidential fitness bullshit, I did actually experience a lot of good PE growing up, but then I’m competitive now and was worse then and loved the crap out of dodgeball. Well, I mean, I got into trouble in high school for bodyslamming people* during floor hockey. In retrospect, I’m probably the reason other people hated gym.

I still hated extracurricular team sports, at which people whose athletic dreams had clearly been thwarted spent lots of time laying guilt trips and making their kids cry. I’m glad my parents had no such ambition.

As for the country-western line dancing in gym class, well, I hated it completely, but I give the teacher props for trying something different**.

—-
*annoying jock people, I promise. Who kept, like, trying not to take the ball away because they didn’t want to Make A Girl Sad. Some of them learned better, at least.

** “Just imagine you have belt loops in your gym shorts. Now stick your thumbs through them! Grapevine!”

Comment #132: purpleshoes  on  06/24  at  12:43 PM

Exholt:  that seems to me to be the equivalent of saying that PE standards in K-12 schools are woefully inadequate because they don’t guarantee that one will be prepared for professional sports.

Comment #133: jfpbookworm  on  06/24  at  12:44 PM

I’m not getting the trophy bitching. In high school, everyone on the team got a tiny little medal for participating. A few kids would get trophies. The medals were the size of a quarter and I doubt they were very expensive to produce. They’d inscribe it with my nickname and my jersey number. It didn’t trick me into thinking I was the best on the team but at least I didn’t feel totally overlooked.

Comment #134: Jenny Dreadful  on  06/24  at  12:48 PM

And the reason lots of CS/IT/engineering types adhere to the libertarianism of resentment ideology is in part because they thought they SHOULD be on top of the pile but watch their former classmates from high school who were on the lacrosse team making more money than they do in finance or consulting or sales.

That may be in many areas, but wasn’t the case with the experiences of colleagues or especially myself.  From their recollections, it sounded like the jocks from their high school days are all working dead-end unskilled manual labor jobs or chronically unemployed for years and even decades and “enjoying helping themselves” to “their money” on the welfare rolls.  In their case, it was more a disgusting display of “kick them when they’re down and then…stomp on them even harder in revenge when they will never conceivably pose a threat to you evermore”.

In my case, the closest experience with jocks before college were those in junior high who are most likely serving long sentences in places like Rikers Island unless they’ve had a dramatic attitude adjustment regarding their inclinations to mug people on the street or racially harass people because they are aspiring White supremacists. 

Considering their already long rap sheets while in school, I doubt they’d be allowed to work in the financial industry.  After all, White collar crime is ok by them….but unseemly indiscreet violent street types crimes will never be tolerated by the Goldman Sachs types.  I’d also doubt they’d do well in sales unless their prospective customers are the types to tolerate yelled racial slurs, racist graffiti on their property, and being beaten and robbed of their cash and other valuables.

Comment #135: exholt  on  06/24  at  01:08 PM

purpleshoes #129, that was such an insightful comment. I love how blogging has gone some way to breaking down the produce/consume hierarchy in writing. Millions of people are writing for fun!

Parping my own horn, I wrote this a while back on a similar topic. I friggin’ hated school PE.
http://capacioushandbag.blogspot.com/2006/03/do-do-run-run-run-do-do-run-run.html

Comment #136: MissPrism  on  06/24  at  01:19 PM

Exholt:  that seems to me to be the equivalent of saying that PE standards in K-12 schools are woefully inadequate because they don’t guarantee that one will be prepared for professional sports.

The difference is that in the greater scheme of things, not being able to avoid errors as a medical doctor, professional engineer, or scientist can easily cause the death or serious injury….sometimes to dozens or thousands of others…..a matter of life or death. 

I seriously doubt that’s the case with any errors pro athletes do on the field in their entire careers assuming they are even remotely sticking to the rules of their sports. 


A part of where I come from on this is seeing far too many first-year undergrads arriving on college campuses not being able to even perform basic arithmetic, algebra, and geometry….basic mathematics that are quite helpful and even critical in ordinary daily life….especially when cousins and college classmates from other countries have experienced far higher standards of what’s considered “basic competency” in math and science even if one’s not on the academic/college prep track. 

From what several friends from Germany and several East Asian countries have said about the level of US K-12 STEM/Math education, it would not be even considered adequate for a middle school graduate who is hoping to enter vocational educational/apprenticeship programs as they all tend to have far higher expectations of math/science proficiency than what is demonstrated by the vast majority of US high school graduates, even many of those who are entering first-tier US colleges and universities.

Comment #137: exholt  on  06/24  at  01:25 PM

@128: I’ll throw in another argument for token acknowledgements for participation in extracurricular and club activities:

As much as 95% of the people in our culture can’t be arsed to show up to regular practices or put in the training on both good days and off days to even do that run. So yeah, I’m not going to complain if I get a tiny bit of SWAG after I’ve made a commitment that’s usually fun, but frequently inconvenient.

Comment #138: CBrachyrhynchos  on  06/24  at  01:26 PM

MissPrism, I didn’t just click through because you flattered me, I swear, but I approve of your take on the matter. For instance, one very successful experience I had in high school PE: we used heartrate monitors to take our resting heart rate and active heartrates and made little charts to show how we’d improved our resting heart rate through doing a variety of aerobic things throughout the semester (tae bo, dance, one horrifying week of running - I will never be a runner - tennis, etc.) Our sense of achievement wasn’t based on self-esteem for self-esteem’s sake, and it wasn’t based on comparison to someone else’s aptitude - it was based on seeing proof that our particular bodies were working better because of specific things we’d done. We also were using other skills and senses besides just plain kinetic perception, which often report to the unathletic only that we hate exercise and would like to go sit down now.

... I got a D in the class for skipping the exam because of chronic adolescence, but I also learned Skills for Life, so we’ll count it as a success.

Comment #139: purpleshoes  on  06/24  at  01:42 PM

it sounded like the jocks from their high school days are all working dead-end unskilled manual labor jobs or chronically unemployed for years and even decades

First, there are plenty of chronically unemployed borderline criminals from your youth who never had any interest or talent in sports at all, I am sure.

Next, I am sure that the former varsity football team members at Stuy, Xavier, and Regis turned out just fine in life. One of my high school classmates who constantly obsessed over the sports section of the newspaper every day, had a fantasy baseball league and played a bunch of varsity sports (competently, but not amazingly or at a high level) is now a lawyer specializing in sports law. And Nate Silver became a sports statistician because he was genuinely sports-obsessed. (I’ve no idea what his athletics experiences were like)

I was never friends with the captain of my high school’s football team, and academically he was not a star, but I am sure he is doing ok.

I personally find youthful obsession with sports to be a sign of disinterest in academic matters, but these days I’ve come to be more of a, “it takes all kinds” sort of person.

On the other hand, I grew up pretty privileged: the opportunity existed for us to succeed in academics and do well in life without a constant fear that our lives would be ruined and that we would go off the rails if we risked distraction by athletics or other non-academic extracurricular activities: and my schools and my peers’ schools had an athletics department that catered to a student body with an inherently academic temperament. Obviously, if your future and ability to escape poverty depends on NOT distracting yourself with athletics and an athletics culture that just reflects a dysfunctional local culture to begin with, then your impression of the whole enterprise is going to be different.

Comment #140: Tyro  on  06/24  at  01:46 PM

kaje @ #104:  Word.  I know *exactly* what you’re talking about.  Been there, done that, hated every minute of it.

attack_laurel #115:  And I also have so been here.  I wasn’t fat as a kid, but I wasn’t a skinny toothpick kid, either.  You’d have thought I weighed 900 pounds in 5th grade, the way I was treated.  I knew I was doomed in PE the year (8th grade) I was put in front of a pair of uneven parallel bars and told to “get up and learn something!” when I had never had ANY gymnastic training whatsoever.

Add a chronic bronchitis condition I had as a kid, where just *breathing* was sometimes the only exercise I could handle.  Toss in a dollop of poverty, where paying the doctor could mean going without rent or food or clothes, and so my parents *punished me* for being active because exercise often triggered a bout of bronchitis which in turn meant a doctor visit, and *rewarded me* for being a “good little girl” by sitting still and reading a book or watching a moving, or playing a board game.

To this day, I have yet to truly get past that childhood programming - that exercise means *punishment* and sitting still means a *reward*. 

If I thought I could get elected to a schoolboard, I would change the PE curriculum to two tracks.  One would the standard competitive “run, jump, play baseball, climb ropes, WIN!” that we currently have, and the second would be a cooperative track consisting of things like aerobics, jazzercise, folk dance, yoga, pilates, tai chi, etc. , where the point would be to build stamina and coordination, teach a love of exercise, and expose kids to all the different kinds of exercise there are that don’t involve winning a contest in order to be a “winner.” 

Meh.  Such a dreamer I am ....

Comment #141: Mhorag  on  06/24  at  01:46 PM

The difference is that in the greater scheme of things, not being able to avoid errors as a medical doctor, professional engineer, or scientist can easily cause the death or serious injury….sometimes to dozens or thousands of others…..a matter of life or death.

Not the point, at all.  This isn’t about jocks vs. nerds, who’s on top?  It’s about the whole “who’s on top” idea being the problem.

A part of where I come from on this is seeing far too many first-year undergrads arriving on college campuses not being able to even perform basic arithmetic, algebra, and geometry….basic mathematics that are quite helpful and even critical in ordinary daily life

And one of the reasons this happens is the prevalence of the attitude that math and science are only important for people who plan on using those skills in a professional context, and that if you’re not at the top there’s no point in bothering.  In other words, that STEM education should be like high school sports, in that it should be about determining who the winners are because they’re the only ones who matter.

Comment #142: jfpbookworm  on  06/24  at  01:46 PM

I seriously doubt that’s the case with any errors pro athletes do on the field in their entire careers assuming they are even remotely sticking to the rules of their sports.

There have been men who’ve had their necks broken or died on the field from injuries in football, not to mention the occasional high school athlete who dies because of heat exhaustion and/or undetected heart abnormalities.

Comment #143: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  06/24  at  02:02 PM

the Boston Globe had an article about it a few years ago:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/02/23/what_happens_when_everyones_a_winner/
Comment #85: phylosopher on 06/24 at 12:04 AM

Which contains the following support for such ridiculous mollycoddling:

“The boys’ lacrosse coach at Algonquin Regional High School, Dave Roche, said he supports participation trophies, but with the clear message that the reward is not for winning, but for completing a full season.

‘‘My three kids save theirs on a shelf. I think they can be a positive thing, good for self-esteem. Receiving a participatory medal or small trophy . . . is a nice way to cap off the season. For the younger grades, kindergarten through fourth, it’s a really big thing. It’s a nice commemoration of a season, and gives an athlete the opportunity to look back on the season, even as they’re into their adult years,” he said.

Would you work for weeks without pay?  You’re essentially saying that the game should be its own reward, that kids don’t even deserve a token.

And just because your kids think the medal is nothing, obviously some kids do like them.  Why spoil it for them?  Not everyone is the same.

It’s obvious that if you only let kids who are already good at building things into the shop, or mock and discourage everyone else, then you’ll be depriving the kids who need shop class the most. How come no one uses this reasoning when it comes to athletics?
Comment #106: kristin on 06/24 at 02:02 AM,

Exactly.  How is one supposed to ever get good enough to be allowed to play?

I am fortunate in that I didn’t have the horrible experiences many of you have had with phys. ed.  I wasn’t uncoordinated or weak, just unpopular.  I actually felt like I at least had a chance to be good at something without it depending on peer approval.  If you run fast, you run fast, no matter what the other kids think about you.  But the social aspects of team sports can be a problem if you don’t have a good coach/teacher (and sometimes even if you do). 

A friend of mine at work coaches girls’ soccer and basketball, and his teams do very well even though he doesn’t try to game it so that his best kids are always in the best positions.  Why?  He teaches them teamwork and gives them praise for things like passing the ball, no matter who they pass it to.  As a result, everyone gets to play, everyone improves, everyone depends on the others on the team and knows how to work with them.  So it doesn’t matter if they have only the “B team” on the court/field—those kids know how to play.

I’m on two different teams at work right now.  One has lots of meetings, we all work on things together, some of us gravitate to particular tasks but everyone gets a chance at “the ball.”  The other has people working separately with not much sharing of information or cooperative effort.  Guess which one responds best if someone’s out sick?  Or if there’s an emergency where no one knows off hand what to do? 

There are long-term consequences to the star system and information/access rationing.

Comment #144: oldfeminist  on  06/24  at  02:02 PM

Our local kids baseball (around 8 years old) just this year had two teams selected by the coaches for the kids in the same age group. Curiously, despite being from the same town, all the talented players ended up on one team and all the not-so-talented players on the other.

The “bad” team lost all of its games. The good team won nearly all of theirs. However being that they are two actually separate teams in the league, the “bad” team came up against the “good” team. By chance the “bad” team actually won.

That is, until one of the parents of the “good” team realized that the “bad” team had re-used a pitcher that should have technically gotten 48 hours rest according to the league. Said parent then petitioned, gained support, and then won at getting the win removed.

I admit, this is second hand, so I may have some of the details slightly off - but that’s the basic gist of it. Pathetic really.

In any case, I was always “last kid picked” so I totally understand where Amanda is coming from.

Comment #145: scathew  on  06/24  at  02:06 PM

I don’t know about actual trophies for everyone, but heaping on the praise for everyone who makes an effort doesn’t cost a penny and goes a long, long way.

Comment #146: ttintagel  on  06/24  at  02:14 PM

And one of the reasons this happens is the prevalence of the attitude that math and science are only important for people who plan on using those skills in a professional context, and that if you’re not at the top there’s no point in bothering.  In other words, that STEM education should be like high school sports, in that it should be about determining who the winners are because they’re the only ones who matter.

Though that was certainly the case in my high school, that was not the experience of the vast majority of college classmates and colleagues who attended the more mainstream US K-12 schools. 

If anything, it was almost the exact opposite where the STEM curriculum, even the APs in many cases was geared so much to the pace of the worst students that the kids with the most aptitude for STEM fields ended up being extremely bored and underwhelmed*, the average kids ended up being fooled into believing they were learning enough only to later be shocked once they started taking college-level STEM classes….or even finding out that their preparation was so lacking they had to take remedial math and science classes before tacking the regular curriculum. 

Combined this with the extremely high social stigma that comes with being highly proficient at math/science and the general anti-intellectual attitude, even among many teachers and educrats** that it wasn’t “cool” to excel academically….especially in the STEM classes at the vast majority of US mainstream K-12 schools.  Why do you think there are so many embittered and angry K-12 nerds and geeks who became doctors, engineers, IT personnel, and scientists such as the ones I’ve came across in my college classes and workplaces. 

* It was one reason why so many high school classmates applied and attended the public magnet high school I attended…..to get away from what was to them the toxic environment of anti-intellectual stigmatizing of academic achievement, violent jock bullies who targeted them for being achievers, and teachers and curricula that’s geared to the pace of the worst/slowest student.  Also a factor in why some who entered the local city or state colleges on full scholarships ended up transferring to more rigorous higher ranked colleges…....having an environment where they can maintain a 4.0 GPA without ever having to open a book and being blocked by college admins from taking far more advanced challenging classes meant they felt they were wasting their time there. 

** This attitude from many K-12 teachers….including some at our public magnet high school was one reason why so many high school classmates ended up being permanently turned off from considering teaching K-12 as a career option.

Comment #147: exholt  on  06/24  at  02:17 PM

“I really do think a major problem with American K12 education is that we’re market-fixated - the only reason you learn art is either to be a consumer (Serious Art appreciation) or a Real Artist, not because diddling around making crafts and liking colors is a basic technique for living life.”

This.  And the thing is, depending on the size of the school, it’s very possible to create parallel environments where kids can play soccer/etc. at the kind of level that pushes them to do well enough that they can get noticed by scouts - but other kids can just fool around because it’s a healthy thing to do.*  The two biggest obstacles to creating these wide variety of opportunities are money and lack of interest in doing so.  I had a lot of support from my parents to keep playing AYSO soccer even through (because they are cool like that and bc I was born with some health problems), but it very much wasn’t something that even my soccer crazy town did much more than turn their nose up at.  There is no way there would have been interest (among the adults) to pay for school intramural soccer teams or a less strictly run second student newspaper that was a club and not a class, even though I think both would have been a benefit to a lot of students.

*And yes, Op, I still think it’s important to create those highly competitive levels.  There are kids who go on to do this for a living or, at least get scholarships, and the thing about teams sports especially is that it’s pretty much impossible to learn to play at that level unless your teammates and competition are good enough to give you the practice.  It is not a coincidence that three of the US Men’s national team players are from the Inland Empire, nor that there was a similar number of players from the New Jersey area on the team 15-20 years ago.  It doesn’t need to be a toxic environment, but to produce those kinds of players, it is going to be competitive in a way that isn’t appropriate for everyone.

Comment #148: jennygadget  on  06/24  at  02:17 PM

exholt:

The problem with weedout courses and punitive pressure from professors is that they don’t really serve the purpose they claim to, but they do help to perpetuate the kinds of hierarchical, screw-everyone-else attitudes that you see among libertarians and in jock culture. That’s one of the reasons many of the major STEM schools have revamped their curriculums. (Sure, engineering, technical and medical mistakes can cost lives, but what’s generally been found is that high-pressure, punitive teaching ends up creating a lot of people who are good at hiding mistakes or at blaming others for them. Lower-pressure, more collaborative methods have been shown, in medicine and a couple of engineering fields I’m aware of, to produce better ultimate results, but it’s hard to get some of the old guard to let go.)

High-pressure teaching methods also serve as a cover for professors (just like coaches) to indulge their personal prejudices; it’s easy for targets of abuse to just happen to be women or minorities or sissies or whoever.

Comment #149: paul  on  06/24  at  02:36 PM

I’m not getting the significance of academic courses being painfully slow for intelligent kids in the discussion about physical education. I don’t think that the unathletic kids have to hold back the kids who are athletically gifted—there are many arenas for sports participation and if kids are passionate about it, there are lots of opportunities for them to compete at a high level. But kids who aren’t fast or strong or coordinated or who just haven’t had the opportunity to learn how to play a sport shouldn’t be discouraged or bullied by coaches who expect everyone to be a natural athlete.

The farthest I ever went in math was intermediate algebra. I’m pretty shitty at math but I was afforded the opportunity to get the basic skills down without a bunch of people rolling their eyes or wagging their finger at me for being so slow. Exercise should be the same way.

Comment #150: Jenny Dreadful  on  06/24  at  02:46 PM

“Just imagine you have belt loops in your gym shorts. Now stick your thumbs through them! Grapevine!”

Heh.  At least when my class had to do the square dancing unit, we got to keep our street clothes on.

If I thought I could get elected to a schoolboard, I would change the PE curriculum to two tracks.

The only reason I would disagree with that is that some of the kids who do like competitive sports might end up also liking things like tai chi and yoga, but if that’s excluded from their track, they would never know it.  Plus I think there’s something to be said for having a wide enough range of activities that the jocks are humbled by coming across something they can’t do and the nerds are empowered by being able to do that same thing that the jocks find difficult.  So I would be more in favor of widening the track for everybody than setting up separate tracks.

Comment #151: Mnemosyne  on  06/24  at  02:48 PM

Next, I am sure that the former varsity football team members at Stuy, Xavier, and Regis turned out just fine in life.

In the case of schools like the ones above, that is mainly because at such schools….they were expected to be students first and athletes second.  That was certainly the case at Stuy. 

There was one high school classmate who did play on the football team who did cause me some concern for his future well-being.  Upon meeting him one summer during our college years, he kept going on about how terrified he was of computers and how they were taking over everything and was shaking and looking so terrified during his terror-filled rant….similar to the way many Tea-Partiers rant these days about the big bad government. 

Though I just listened and tried my best to reassure him, in my mind….I was wondering how in the world he managed to survive 4 years in a high school stuffed to the gills with computer nerds/geeks and the associated subcultures. 

There have been men who’ve had their necks broken or died on the field from injuries in football, not to mention the occasional high school athlete who dies because of heat exhaustion and/or undetected heart abnormalities.

Yes, but their errors won’t cause the deaths of many others outside of their profession…...unlike the catastrophic consequences even a minor error committed by a medical doctor, engineer, or scientist could cause for dozens…or even thousands of others…such as a collapsed building because of a tiny miscalculations in dosage, placement angles of structural supports, or a loose cap on a vial containing a highly virulent contagious virus. 

As one engineering colleague quoted from his college engineering math professor when some engineering classmates were urging the Prof to grant partial credit for problems he marked wrong for on a math test, “You build bridge, bridge fall down.  NO PARTIAL CREDIT!!!!”

Comment #152: exholt  on  06/24  at  02:51 PM

Great subject Amanda. I loath the jock culture and how **Art, Music and Drama (cause only girls and fags are into it and goddess forbid developing a creative side/mind rather then body)are usually the first programs to get axed in school budgets, because OMG! you can’t cut sports!!111! The cost of maintaining the football fields, gymnasiums and transportation to the various and sundry games costs far more then the above.
An friend of mine 7 year old boy begged to join PeeWee Football. He let him and we were amazed at the brutal schedule these kids had. Practice 5 days a night till about 7pm. The schedule he was on would be draining for an adult, let alone a young child. FFIW, my friend hated the coaches he had in H.S. They were the sterotypical bullies who supported the jocks, while mocking the lesser talented kids.
Except for Roller Derby, I despise team sports. And I too avoid working out for years (love it now: I do weight training and walking)because of my own negative experiences with P.E.
** The H.S I pay property taxes for has an art gallery for students to display their work. Most of the works were amazing.

Comment #153: pitbullgirl65  on  06/24  at  02:51 PM

One word: Calvinball. (god I miss Calvin and Hobbes)

Comment #154: pitbullgirl65  on  06/24  at  02:54 PM

exholt @137
I call bullshit here.  Your German friends are from the same academic backgrounds you are.  Having spent time in Germany with more than one type of worker, I can tell you their base education is NOT better than ours. 
Frankly, do not trust any statistics that compare our schools as they do not count huge swaths in their populations because they have been sidetracked into trades/apprenticeship programs and so no longer count as students.
US test scores would be a hell of a lot better, too, if we shuffled out the lower achievers and stopped counting them they way it is done in Japan, Germany, UK….

Comment #155: helen w. h.  on  06/24  at  02:56 PM

The farthest I ever went in math was intermediate algebra. I’m pretty shitty at math but I was afforded the opportunity to get the basic skills down without a bunch of people rolling their eyes or wagging their finger at me for being so slow. Exercise should be the same way.

We seem to be comfortable with having athletic outlets for students who want to compete at a very high level because of their natural talent, if the school is willing to invest resources in that. Similarly, schools have different levels of desire regarding whether they want to invest the resources and teaching infrastructure in tailoring some of their academics towards the very talented and hard working who want to study a subject at a very high level.

While pretty universally, we approach high school sports with the idea in mind that you find and cultivate the most talented and cut the rest from the team, attitudes towards academics differ widely across schools: some allow opportunities for students to dice as deep into advanced subject matter as they want while offering “standard track” opportunities for the rest, some schools “go through the motions” of offering advanced classes but cater them to the students who are the least prepared, holding the rest back, and some schools don’t offer much in the way of advanced academics at all, only fulfilling the bare minimums.

Comment #156: Tyro  on  06/24  at  02:58 PM

Purely anecdotal, but team sports was very good for me. I was athletic, and I learned how to be a gracious winner and how not to be a sore loser, as well as to lose my childhood “I’m the center of the universe” worldview. But I was aware and disapproving of the way the non-athletic kids were humiliated. I’m glad that in our neck of the woods, PE teachers have moved away from picking the two best athletes to be the captains and choose the teams that way, and indeed have moved away from using so much competition in class, instead they teach the skills and then have little scrimmages.

I will never forget my junior high school coach. He was incredibly good looking, and everyone raved about him, but one day during gym class I heard him muttering about one boy, who was chubby and unattractive and unathletic. He was calling him a loser and disgusting. I suddenly saw how ugly this dude really was. You’ll all be glad to know that was his last year coaching, instead, he became a cop…how perfect.

Comment #157: maurinsky  on  06/24  at  02:59 PM

5,000 would be considered a small-medium sized high school by the NYC board of ed standards up until I graduated in the mid-1990s.  There were quite a few mainstream NYC public schools where the student population approached or even exceeded 20,000 students.

The one I attended had a total student population of around 3,000….tiny by NYC board of ed standards.

The five biggest cities in America still account for less than 25% of the total student body so the idea that massive schools is a bit out of touch.  752 is the national average as of 2000 (quickest statistic I could pull up.)  Some condensed states hover around a thousand.  Still at 752 it is quite easy to play the three major sports at a division level and have room for rec/club play easily.  That leaves almost two hundred kids per grade level, divided by sex leaves almost hundred boys and hundred girls for teams just by grade level alone. 

@153:  Sports make money, well to be more exact, sports pay for themselves.  Most of the football teams in High Schools are supported by the parents and ticket sales to games.  They spend 15 million on a new stadium because half the town shows up on friday night and pays the school back within 5-10 years.  It’s the exact same way in college.  Colleges pay money for sports because sports pays them back.  They were discussing on the radio that the major Big 12 schools were looking at 20+ million payoff every year. 

The arts don’t bring in a dollar.  It is a sad reality and because there aren’t families cheering in the stands as little Kimmy paints, they have no vocal supporters.  It all devolves into who makes the school money and because the arts aren’t in the standardized testing format they’re the easiest ones to drop to avoid NCLB standards and state standards.  Personally, I am for the states writing in a simple addendum to the rules creating a quasi-standard for arts of X amount of years will be given to each student, rather than standardized testing it.

Comment #158: Xeranar  on  06/24  at  03:03 PM

Xeranar, I think this is a good argument for a vocational approach to arts. (Or rather, an arts and crafts approach to art.) Sure, parents can be expected to barely endure Kimmy’s first attempts at making vases, but down the road, surely there will be people who are at least as good at pottery/painting/sculpture for their age group as football players are at playing football. Our theater program was actually surprisingly self-supporting, counting grants, because it was not terrible and even people who were not immediate family would go see plays on purpose.

Comment #159: purpleshoes  on  06/24  at  03:13 PM

Bryce Harper is going to be a multi-millionaire at age 17 because he can hit a baseball.

Comment #160: liberalrob  on  06/24  at  03:14 PM

Why do you think there are so many embittered and angry K-12 nerds and geeks who became doctors, engineers, IT personnel, and scientists such as the ones I’ve came across in my college classes and workplaces.

Because they’ve been told all their life that they are smarter than everyone else, to the point where it’s their primary self-identification?  Because they’ve been told all their life that this makes them better people and will eventually earn them money, power and respect, and now they don’t feel they’re getting what’s owed to them?

Comment #161: jfpbookworm  on  06/24  at  03:19 PM

Which is not to say that I think we should only sponsor students who can bring in money with arts or athletics - I just argued against that above! How the worm turns - but I certainly do believe that you should provide opportunities for people who have obvious talents and skills to use those skills. I’m not against that just because the top 1% have been ruining it for everybody.

I think when I get specific about it my argument is that there are lots of people who can use skills in everyday life - whether it’s making themselves some entirely passable coffee mugs, playing music with friends, passing a football, or, you know, reading - whether or not it’s going to support them lifelong in and of itself. And I feel like there’s a difference between, say, the community taking a hearty interest in high school productions of Shakespeare and treating theater classes as only important to people who want to be professional actors.

Comment #162: purpleshoes  on  06/24  at  03:20 PM

jfpbookworm, and also because if you’re only praised for things that come easily and never have experience trying and succeeding at something you have to work at - even after failures - your self-esteem gets to be awfully conditional and you wind up narrowing your world down until it includes only those things.

I include in this statement anti-intellectual athletes as well as anti-jock intellectuals.

Comment #163: purpleshoes  on  06/24  at  03:28 PM

They’d just have you play a game, like basketball or volleyball, without explaining it to you

My teachers explained the fundamentals of each game to us so I guess I was lucky that way. Somehow, though, everyone else in the class seemed to know more about the game than the fundamentals, to have more experience at it than I did. Of course, now I know that I might be diagnosible as an Aspie, which could explain how I would miss cues the other kids were picking up. But I always felt like I was the only rank beginner in any sport.

It didn’t trick me into thinking I was the best on the team but at least I didn’t feel totally overlooked.

And more than that, it’s kinda nice to have a tangible memento of the season. I have participation ribbons from showing animals and crafts in 4-H (as well as some winning ribbons) and going through them reminds me vividly of what fair or event it was, who was there, what we did while we hung out. It’s neat. I like it.

He teaches them teamwork and gives them praise for things like passing the ball, no matter who they pass it to.

Oh god. Does anyone else remember having the ball accidentally or hastily passed to them by a more skilled classmate? And how the entire rest of the team would stop everything to throw up their hands, roll their eyes and groan because now That Loser had the ball? It’s garbage like that, more than not making the most baskets in every game, that I suspect damages people’s ability to enjoy athletics. It’s a lesson that not only will you never be a star, but you’re not worth ever being on the team, at all, in any capacity. The teachers who bypass that bullshit and foster real teamwork and cooperation are heroes.

Comment #164: kristin  on  06/24  at  03:33 PM

Xander #158 The arts don’t bring in a dollar.  It is a sad reality and because there aren’t families cheering in the stands as little Kimmy paints, they have no vocal supporters.  It all devolves into who makes the school money and because the arts aren’t in the standardized testing format they’re the easiest ones to drop to avoid NCLB standards and state standards

This is true, although it doesn’t make it any less wrong. Where are the future Goyas, Mendelssohns, Derek Jacobis going to come from?  Beethovens Symphony No. 9 will endure centuries from now, while the winner of last years Super Bowl will long be forgotten.
It all comes down to money.

Comment #165: pitbullgirl65  on  06/24  at  03:47 PM

I call bullshit here.  Your German friends are from the same academic backgrounds you are.  Having spent time in Germany with more than one type of worker, I can tell you their base education is NOT better than ours.


I will grant you that my knowledge of the German education system is limited.

However, what I described is the case for the educational systems in East Asia, particularly those of Japan, China and especially Taiwan as I have cousins and parents who went through the last listed educational system. 

In the Taiwan education system, one must complete our equivalent of first year college calculus by the end of 8th grade if one is hoping to take the exams necessary to gain admission to an academic high school one must attend in order to be eligible to take the highly cutthroat national college entrance exams.  Back in the 1950’s mom was considered a remedial student for not taking calculus until her sophomore year at some American-run private alternative high school for well-off girls whereas her older sisters all completed it in 8th or even 7th grade.  A reason why nearly every student I’ve met from Japan, China, Korea, or especially Taiwan felt the US K-12 math and science curriculum was a complete joke compared to what they had even in the worst rated middle-schools. 

One Japanese college classmate from a working-class background who was expelled from 7th grade after a single offense of fighting in school and barred from further education by school officials because of that offense had to work for several years in various odd jobs and unskilled factory work before he was lucky to meet a wealthy benefactor who sent him to the states to attend high school and college.  One of the things he kept remarking about was how he not only had no trouble keeping up in the 9th grade in his well-off suburban US high school despite not having completed 7th grade, but also at how shocked he was at how the math and science curriculum was slightly behind from what he remembered before he was expelled from his Japanese middle school.  Before long, he ended up helping his classmates as he was already familiar with many of the topics being covered in those classes.

Comment #166: exholt  on  06/24  at  04:04 PM

While pretty universally, we approach high school sports with the idea in mind that you find and cultivate the most talented and cut the rest from the team, attitudes towards academics differ widely across schools: some allow opportunities for students to dice as deep into advanced subject matter as they want while offering “standard track” opportunities for the rest, some schools “go through the motions” of offering advanced classes but cater them to the students who are the least prepared, holding the rest back, and some schools don’t offer much in the way of advanced academics at all, only fulfilling the bare minimums.

Interestingly, the East Asian educational systems relatives, friends, college classmates, and colleagues tended to emphasize the team-building aspects of sports and in some cases, actually discouraged being excessively competitive as seems to be the case in most US K-12 schools.  With them, PE and sports was mainly about learning skills, building student camaraderie, and having fun and less about winning championships with other schools. 

A reason why most of them had a very hard time understanding the extreme degree of sports-mania among most US K-12 schools, parents, teachers/educrats, and even colleges.  This was very alien to their experiences.  Of course, now with the globalized popularization of competitive sports and the US mania with that…..there are already signs that the Chinese students and schools are starting to emulate the US type sports-mania to the degree matching or even exceeding that of their US counterparts as the 2008 Olympics has shown.

Comment #167: exholt  on  06/24  at  04:29 PM

I had a variant on this experience.  A gal cornered me to ask about how she should coach her kids’ volleyball team (volleyball is big here in Hawai’i).

She basically said that some parents were complaining that their kids were usually benched, but that her teams were winning games, so she wasn’t sure what they were upset about.

I didn’t have the time or heart to get into how awful a human being she was.  Who measures the value of a kids’ league team by its strong winning record?  How is that possibly important?

Comment #168: Punditus Maximus  on  06/24  at  04:30 PM

Though I want to throw in some extra hatred towards the Presidential Fitness Tests, at which a bunch of kids who might be able to do short, game-of-tag type sprints for hours without getting tired are made to run a mile exactly once a year and learn to associate Official Fitness with tasting blood, heaving stomachs, and being marked as a failure every. damn. year. with no attempt to improve the situation by teaching them how to run.

With ya here. And still bitter.

On the connection between STEM and sports, I would argue that too often in the US people are rewarded for being naturally good at things and discouraged from doing them if they aren’t. You say “I’m not good at math in the US” and everyone will chuckle with sympathy.

A teacher of the year who also had taught in Singapore once told me that is the biggest failing of the US education system. in Singapore, if you’re not naturally good at math, all it means is you have to work harder, not that you should give up.

Too many gym teachers treat PE the same way. Reward the naturally talented and denigrate the ones who have to work harder.

It’s ironic in a country that claims to be a meritocracy, no?

Comment #169: louC  on  06/24  at  05:07 PM

Seconding Amanda’s recommendation of The Tipping Point.  One thing Malcolm Gladwell notes is that the kids who are identified as “good at sports” in elementary school are frequently just the kids who are the oldest in their class.  The thing is, it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy: the “talented” kids get more time on the field, more attention from coaches, and more encouragement to keep up with athletics, so they really do get better, while the younger kids are sidelined or actively discouraged from playing.  According to Gladwell, by high school the vast majority of kids still playing sports are the ones who had that fleeting age advantage way back in first grade; nearly everyone else has given up.

It isn’t just Gladwell saying this; there’s mounting evidence that sorting kids into “gifted” and “ungifted” categories early in life is meaningless, whether it’s for academics, athletics or art, because at that age a kid’s “gifts” often just represent developmental surges that fade as the other kids catch up.  The early talent-tracking is especially ridiculous in athletics.  All it does is provide an arbitrary mechanism for sorting out a handful of kids for the lion’s share of training and attention.

If there’s an overarching theme to The Tipping Point, it’s that our culture places way too much emphasis on innate talent, sorting people into winners and losers with no attention to outside factors and throwing all our resources at the winners.  This is misguided for a couple of reasons.  First, in the rush to single out the top achievers and push them to excellence, we leave everyone else behind, including people who are just as talented but didn’t get that random break necessary for early success.  Second, it minimizes the importance of hard work and constant practice, leading people to believe that if you aren’t good at something right away—hell, if you aren’t the best—you suck and should give up.

Comment #170: Shaenon  on  06/24  at  05:23 PM

The Presidential Fitness Tests were a Republican program; they were about hurting people, simple as that.

Comment #171: Punditus Maximus  on  06/24  at  05:25 PM

In a perfect world we wouldn’t have kids’ sports leagues in the first place, except as a resource for kids who are serious about training for athletic careers.  Fifty years ago, if a kid wanted to play baseball, he went outside and got some friends together and played a damn game of baseball.  Kids don’t need adults organizing them and training them and ranking them and buying them pro-level uniforms and trophies in order to just play a game.  It really bothers me that kids are discouraged from unsupervised, unstructured play.  Everything has to be hardcore training towards a goal.

Comment #172: Shaenon  on  06/24  at  05:40 PM

It’s ironic in a country that claims to be a meritocracy, no?

The USA has a weird, ambivalent relationship with “meritocracy.” We view merit at something “inherent,” and those who try to “work” their way to merit are somehow considered to be cheating. This came out a bit during the Sotomayor nomination when people were saying how she wasn’t really highly accomplished, she just worked so hard to cover up her deficiencies.

Math is really hard—I had to spend a lot of tine doing problems over and over again to understand it. Sports are hard: I had to practice a lot to get things right and improve myself. But I could have just as easily been told that I “wasn’t a sports person” or “wasn’t a math person.” Instead I had mentors who were willing to work with me as long as I showed evidence of investing regular effort and hard work towards mastering the tasks.

Of course there are outliers on both ends. And of course sports teams especially are going to be interested in identifying the outliers and pushing them to their limits so they fulfill their potential. But most of us are in-between and going to respond to practice and hard work if we are going to be given the opportunity to.

Comment #173: Tyro  on  06/24  at  05:45 PM

On the connection between STEM and sports, I would argue that too often in the US people are rewarded for being naturally good at things and discouraged from doing them if they aren’t. You say “I’m not good at math in the US” and everyone will chuckle with sympathy.

I’m not sure that is universal at most mainstream US K-12 schools from what my high school classmates experienced in K-8 and from what I heard from the vast majority of college classmates who taught K-12. 

Beyond a few highly cutthroat magnet high schools and other similarly run public and private schools, the vast majority of the schools have students, parents, and even teachers/admins who treat academics and STEM fields in particular with just as much, if not more disdain and devaluation than students and most teachers regarded high school athletics and jocks at our high school. 

This quote is far more true to their experiences:

attitudes towards academics differ widely across schools: some allow opportunities for students to dice as deep into advanced subject matter as they want while offering “standard track” opportunities for the rest, some schools “go through the motions” of offering advanced classes but cater them to the students who are the least prepared, holding the rest back, and some schools don’t offer much in the way of advanced academics at all, only fulfilling the bare minimums.

Only thing I’d add is that for the vast majority of K-12 from the experiences of those who excelled academically like my high school classmates, the situation in most K-12, especially the STEM classes is that it tends to be taught at the pace of the worst students which means the extremely bright kids end up feeling bored and underwhelmed and the rest do not get as much out of the class as they could have. 

When this is coupled with stigmatization of the academic achievers from classmates, parents, teachers, and educrats who prioritize sports over academics and a highly bureaucratic policy by educrats of actively blocking advancements of the underwhelmed and bored extremely bright kids who are ready to tackle much more advanced material, you have an educational policy which ends up hurting all students.  What’s more sad is that the latter policies is not limited to K-12 as several high school classmates on full-scholarships found when they found the same prevailing mentality at many lower-ranking city, state, and private universities where they were so underwhelmed in their assigned college classes and yet, were actively barred from registering for more advanced challenging courses even though they have demonstrated that they were fully ready for them.

Comment #174: exholt  on  06/24  at  05:57 PM

What it comes down to for me is that I never learned anything in PE. I was never taught how to improve any skills. We were told to play basketball, or volleyball, or soccer, without so much as having the rules explained—because everyone already knows the rules, right? Certainly never coached on form or strategy. Just “go play the game.” So the kids who already played those sports and were already good at them obviously ruled. If you weren’t already good at the sport, or god forbid didn’t actually know how to play it at all, well, you just sucked then, didn’t you?

In ninth grade, the last required year of PE, we were told to run laps every day unless it was below 32 degrees outside (when we played basketball). Running 7 laps in 15 minutes got you an A. 6 laps got you a B, etc. Again, no coaching on running form, or how to ramp up your speed gradually.

At the end of the year, and only at the end of the year, we were graded on the number of situps we could perform, the number of pushups, the number of chinups, and our heart rate during an exercise test. No baseline taken at the beginning of the year. I flunked the chinups test, because most women post-puberty (and at 14, I’d basically reached my adult weight and size) physically don’t have the upper body muscle to lift their own body weight unless they have been training. I also flunked the pushups test, similar reason. Of course we didn’t actually do situps, pushups, or chinups in class.

The whole setup was based on the idea that physical activity and sports weren’t things you could learn or improve your skills at. You were either good at them or you weren’t, and if you weren’t, there was no point you trying. You’d only hold everyone back and look like an idiot and get made fun of and bullied. You should just give up and sit on the bleachers and get out of the way.

I’m all for physical education, but it needs to be education. I’ve gotten actual physical education on my own as an adult—learned how to start running, how to start lifting weights, how to stretch, and how to measure my progress at all of these. You have to learn a bit of anatomy, a bit of human biology, a bit of psychology, and work with an actual training program that’s more than just “go run.” I’ll never be a pro athlete—I’ll never win a 5k or a bodybuilding competition—but I’m coming to realize that it’s actually okay to just compete against myself and be proud of my progress and personal bests.

Team sports are a bit harder, particularly in PE class. I don’t know the answer there. But casual teams do exist, even teams for raw beginners who are learning a sport. You can still enjoy competition, but against people closer to your own level—so it’s a real competition rather than a bloodbath.

Finally, people need to understand that competition in sports can be friendly, not cutthroat. What a concept—you can try to win without hating and despising your opponent, and losing doesn’t mean you’re stupid and useless and weak. But as long as we run PE class like Battle Royale, the concept of friendly competition that’s actually fun for everyone will remain alien.

Comment #175: snowmentality  on  06/24  at  06:13 PM

Finally, people need to understand that competition in sports can be friendly, not cutthroat. What a concept—you can try to win without hating and despising your opponent, and losing doesn’t mean you’re stupid and useless and weak. But as long as we run PE class like Battle Royale, the concept of friendly competition that’s actually fun for everyone will remain alien.

The sad part is, that gym class attitude seems to have crept up into organized and even professional sports.  When I was in a summer soccer league, it was mandatory that you line up after the game and shake hands with all of your opponents, and if you had a bad attitude about it, you got in big trouble with your coach and with the referees, who could penalize you for poor sportsmanship.

Now you have kids getting into brawls during and after their games.  Heck, you have parents literally killing each other over kids’ games.

Comment #176: Mnemosyne  on  06/24  at  06:28 PM

I never had a problem with teachers and coaches.  It was ALWAYS kids who put me off exercise and team sports in particular.  And, above all, the boys.  You guys take that shit way too seriously, and, unsurprisingly, boys and men use sports as a way to hassle girls and women

In my experience, the coaches and teacher were the enablers, if not outright encouraging other children to abuse the less athletically inclined. 

And…some of my biggest tormentors were my fellow girls.  Drop a ball, miss a catch and some nasty little bitch was in my face, calling me every name in the book.

OTOH, while it’s easy to blame my hatred—yes, hatred—of team sports on early experiences, most of my attitude is driven by my personality.  I’m a loner.  A daydreamer who doesn’t have the ability to stay focused and in the zone for the duration of a game.  I can’t even watch sports.  ZZzzzzzz.

I’m not a fan of exercise for the sake of exercise.  My dog and I get in at least a brisk mile a day and I work long, hard hours in the garden.  Hard physical labor, schlepping wheelbarrows of gravel, etc. I have a huge garden.  But I’d rather be staked nekkid to an anthill than go jogging or lift weights.  Again, Zzzzzz.

Physical education should be less about competition and more about just finding some physically active pursuit that you enjoy.

Comment #177: adobedragon  on  06/24  at  06:42 PM

Everything is the privilege of the few.  Why should sports be any different?

Not all leagues and organizations approach (or encourage or tolerate) cutthroat behavior in their coaches or their parents.  The league my son is in gives out participation trophies, and insists that its coaches find ways to celebrate every player.  I coached last year.  I never saw entitled behavior from the weaker players on the team, only from the strongest.

IMO, those who don’t like participation trophies should stay away from leagues that give them out.  That way, their kids’ recognition won’t be devalued by its association with those less deserving.

Comment #178: Bob  on  06/24  at  07:42 PM

exholt, the culture you describe is by no means universal and a more achievement oriented culture isn’t limited to a few urban magnet schools. There are plenty of public school districts which attract academic-achievement-oriented parents who do value those sorts of things and do insist that teachers prepare their students to do well on AP exams, not simply go through the motions of teaching through the syllabus and not really insisting on high standards. Granted, these school districts tend to be characterized by a wealthy population and high real estate prices, but they do exist. You can figure out which ones these are because they’re the public high schools which have an unusually large number of people attending top colleges: in an average suburban high school, you might have the valedictorian attend an Ivy League-level college, while certain other high achieving school districts might have several that go just to a single elite university with many students going to others of a similar caliber. I think the reason for this is expectations: in school districts where this isn’t the “norm,” anti-intellectual attitudes will prevail and academic achievement will be viewed as “getting ahead of oneself” while the “appropriate” status determinant will be over athletics or simply wealth divorced from intellectual/academic success.

Comment #179: Tyro  on  06/24  at  08:07 PM

paul @116: mom’s not an abuse victim, she’s an enabler. I agree with what you’re saying about people being conditioned to see this abuse (particularly of boys, in a sports context) as normal and appropriate, but that doesn’t mean anyone who tolerates or enables abuse is also a “victim”.  And when you tell your child that it’s right and proper for them to tolerate abuse from an authority figure so that you won’t try and protect them from it, you’re tacitly encouraging that abuse.

And what snowmentality says at @175.

Comment #180: mythago  on  06/24  at  08:45 PM

The Presidential Fitness Tests were a Republican program; they were about hurting people, simple as that.

The Wikipedia entry for President’s Council on Physical Fitness states that it was launched by Eisenhower in 1956 and furthered by JFK and LBJ.  Until I looked it up, I associated it with JFK.

Comment #181: FlipYrWhig  on  06/24  at  08:51 PM

exholt, the culture you describe is by no means universal and a more achievement oriented culture isn’t limited to a few urban magnet schools. There are plenty of public school districts which attract academic-achievement-oriented parents who do value those sorts of things and do insist that teachers prepare their students to do well on AP exams, not simply go through the motions of teaching through the syllabus and not really insisting on high standards.

While there are a few public school districts like the ones you described, they are far from the mainstream US K-12 experience if what dozens of relatives, college friends, and colleagues experienced as K-12 teachers firsthand from across the US, education Profs I’ve talked with, and hundreds of college classmates and college undergrads from across the US over the last 2 decades are any indication. 

While every parent, especially those in the middle/upper-classes will profess a desire for high academic standards which challenge and stretch kids, what the teachers and education profs I’ve talked with found is that the vast majority of said parents actually only wanted a facade of academic excellence to wear as a badge of parental pride while actually doing whatever they can to reduce the academic rigor for their own kid(s) so their darlings won’t have to suffer the cruel indignity of getting a B, C, or even an F because their efforts and the quality of their work is not actually up to par with what would actually prepare them for undergraduate academics, especially at the Ivy/Ivy-level colleges and the “poor darlings” are already “working so hard”.  rolleyes

The friends who teach/TA many undergrad courses in various Ivy/Ivy-level universities have been increasingly seeing the byproducts of such upper/upper-middle-class borne attitudes for nearly a decade now….and have been getting sick of dealing with the BS that comes with it for nearly that long. 

Moreover, I’ve have had several cousins who attended such public schools as you described and some of them have described their schools as their equivalent of Boston Latin, Stuy, or Bronx Science.  Yeah, right!

In terms of facilities, teachers, and motivation of the top 1-5% of the students….I would agree. 

However, the vast majority from talking with those cousins and even visiting a few such well-off suburban schools is that the anti-intellectual attitudes were still present.  A large part of that is due to the fact the only prerequisite for admission to such schools is to be zoned in that school district and the students, parents, and teachers/educrats still heavily prioritized competitive school athletics like the football and basketball teams over academic needs when it came to funding priorities. 

This means that even with the best facilities and teachers, the vast majority of the students and their parents are actually no different from the anti-intellectual majority in the US population at large. Well….except the fact they are loaded financially and/or are drowning in high mortgage debt to live there. 

Since a critical mass of such students and parents aren’t actually any more interested in actual academic excellence….merely a facade of it….the entire school’s overall level suffers as the vast majority’s anti-intellectual attitudes and actual efforts to lobby for easier grades for their darling children so they can increase their chances of getting into an Ivy/Ivy-level college without having to “work too hard” means that most such students end up being able to pull 3.5+ and even 4.0+ GPAs without ever having to crack the books more than a few times in their high school careers and in the process…develop horrific study habits which usually ends up seriously biting them in the ass once they hit the college campuses….especially those Ivy/Ivy-level campuses.  This seemed to have happened a lot with many younger siblings and older children of my cousins’ high school classmates in such school districts along with their classmates, especially from the late 1990s onwards. 

If they tried pulling the same BS at schools like Bronx Science, they’d be lucky to scrape by with a D- or even F type grades, harshly told by many teachers and admins to consider transferring back to their zoned high schools, and if the parents have the temerity to ask for special treatment for their darlings, the teachers, admins, and even their PTA would be laughing those types of parents out of the school.

Comment #182: exholt  on  06/24  at  09:07 PM

Amanda, this is a fabulous post and I agree with every word.  I wasn’t the fat girl, but the uncoordinated girl picked right before the fat girls.  Woo-hoo.  No one ever taught the rules of any team sports, they always assumed you knew them.  As for dodgeball?  I actually liked it.  Because I’d just make damn sure I’d get hit by the ball early on, and then go gratefully sit in the corner. 

I’m in my forties.  The first time I ever ran a mile (with a personal trainer helping me) I was in my thirties.  The trainer showed me how to breathe properly so I didn’t get exhausted.  I couldn’t believe no one ever had shown me that before.  After I ran the mile, I sat and cried.  Those wounds go real, real deep.

I read somewhere that only about 3% of adults get their physical fitness through team sports.  It just isn’t compatible with real life.  Real life, people stay fit through individual activities like running, walking, yoga, or working out at health clubs and using the equipment.  Yet what did they teach?  Stupid, useless team sports.

Comment #183: Susanne  on  06/24  at  10:28 PM

I was the tall girl, the clumsy and slow girl. To the point my 1st grade PE teacher suggested my folks have me tested to see if I needed physical therapy. Good man, Mr. Mackee. Turns out my folks and I have neurological problems. My little sister did need PT.

The doctors suggested I NOT be required to take PE. I ended up taking all that was required and hating every bit of it, except the dance part. Dance was the only thing I didn’t suck at, so I filled my second required year with social dance. The unit structure in Jr High and HS just meant I got to find out how many things I sucked at. (Volleyball, basketball, archery, track, gymnastics, badmiton, pingpong, the list is endless)

It’s taken me until age 42 to regard my body as anything otehr than a nuisance, a carrying case for my brain. Now, I’m bicycling to Mordor as I work at getting my weight under 200lbs. I want a bike of my own. It’s only 2 miles to work and on days when I won’t die from the heat, I would like to ride.

Comment #184: Angelia Sparrow  on  06/25  at  12:45 AM

I think that you should also remember that some kids just basically hate PE and will never get anything from it. I was 2 years younger than my classmates after skipping grade 5 (since I had begun grade school a year early), and in addition had two genetically-based oddities, one of which I noticed early and the other of which I fully realized only recently. The first was an almost total inability to build muscle mass or strength (I understand about 15% of the population will get little or nothing from muscle training). So, exercise or not, I couldn’t see any difference (never built much endurance either). The second was a sub-variety of ASD called Reward Deficiency Syndrome that means I’m not capable of caring about winning in a competitive situation and don’t find praise encouraging or even credible. In my regular life, I paint around that by aiming further than I need to, so that when I lose interest as the ostensible goal approaches, I’ve already met or surpassed my “real” goal—or by doing mid-project work for others who are more interested in taking the credit for what’s done. But that only works for academic or intellectual applications, where intellectual curiosity kicks in as well (thank goodness, mine is quite strong). I’ve literally never played a team sport in my life because I not only don’t but can’t care about winning, while losing or putting in a disappointing performance still upsets me.

I did learn something from PE class, though—the powerful but stupid can be manipulated if you kept your head about you. My PE teachers would tell me to run a mile; they didn’t, and couldn’t, dictate to me how fast I should run it. See you in half an hour! They could try to humiliate me, but since the age difference had already narrowed my social circle, I found it easy to ignore them. They might have failed me, I suppose, but I asked them to their faces if they wanted to see me next year, and they folded. They came huffing and puffing into the gym as if they had power, but by the way they reacted they taught me how little power they really did have. It was an interesting lesson.

As for fitness, not driving and watching what I eat seems to have turned out fine. I’m certainly in better shape than a lot of the sometime jocks are now.

Comment #185: sunsin  on  06/25  at  01:01 AM

@ Opoponax #103.  Uhm… kids tend to thrive on structured activities - some do, some don’t.  And if we’re talking about staying fit enough to keep doing so at a later date - for something like swimming - I think lots of kids would much rather play then be bored out of their gourds swimming laps.  I think that’s why there ar ea heck of a lot more hockey playing kids than say speed skaters.  Every coaching program I’ve ever had contact with, and most material read emphasizes puck/ball touches - get ‘em playing- both for skill development AND maintaining interest.

Comment #186: phylosopher  on  06/25  at  02:00 AM

exholt, you are apparently unaware of the selection of public school districts in the USA that families from Asian countries specifically move to when they immigrate because they are considered—even in their home countries—to offer a rigorous education. And, yes, those districts are heavily populated by the very upper middle class students you sort of resent, but there it is.

Look, to a degree, I hear you. We prefer people who are like us: people who went to the kind of school we went to (whatever that was), raised in the sort of environment we were raised in (whatever that was), with the sort of ambitions we have (whatever they are), and since we did well—probably better than a lot of people we know—we think that this was the best way. But there are lots of different paths to success, and some people got there by living in a top-tier public school district with parents who moved there specifically because it was high-caliber, and the students ended up with a lot to show for themselves. Maybe they did a little better professionally because they saw what was possible to a greater degree than we did.

the vast majority of the students and their parents are actually no different from the anti-intellectual majority in the US population at large.

Well, except for the fact that the parents are highly educated professionals who themselves attended top tier schools and insist that their children do the same as them and their peers, even the athletic ones. Not all “upper middle class” neighborhoods are like that: some of their high schools are quite mediocre, but the high quality ones are quite well known and do produce good results.

Getting back to the topic, not only are the schools good, but they won’t be so oversized that sports participation is limited to a tiny sliver of the student body. And some of the “sports stars,” such as they are (none of them are going to get a football scholarship), tend to be top-level academic achievers, as well. The thing about the upper middle classes is that their parents are really extremely demanding, and while you can BS your way past a few teachers, things like AP exams are actually somewhat difficult. The difference is that a mediocre school will make AP classes “standard” to boost their statistics but fail to tailor the class towards the students capable of handling the material, and you have the vast majority of students not taking the AP exam at all or doing very poorly.

As I said, you can tell by the level of colleges the kids are going to: a mediocre suburban public school will have one or two top graduates a year that end up at a “name” school, while a superior one will send the top quintile or so to Ivy/Ivy-level colleges. Why? Because the school has high standards and the students and their parents are ambitious/motivated.

Comment #187: Tyro  on  06/25  at  02:35 AM

Phyl, I’ll try one more time, but I know how it is when you become absolutely fixated on a tiny detail and refuse to discuss anything else, so it’s probably a lost cause.

Some people—including you—are mocking the “trophy for participating” model of youth sports and insisting that the only way kids will learn that they’re total loo-sers is if their coaches make it clear that they’re totally untalented and a drag on the team.  The rest of us are trying to point out that there is a middle ground between the insincerity that your kid has picked up on with the participation medal and the dog-eat-dog, only experts need apply model that we’re trying to get away from.

I also found it fascinating that you’re ignoring the class issues and pretending that every kid in the juvenile justice system gets a slap on the wrist, as though there are no kids who are in prison for life without parole.  Yes, your middle-class white kids get medals for participating.  A lot of middle-class white kids do.  Shockingly, that’s not actually the experience of people who don’t fit into that description.
Comment #128: Mnemosyne on 06/24 at 11:08 AM

And you’re missing my point, which I will articulate explicitly - I’m railing against the needless junk and expenditures which many adults seem to think kids need to play sports, and which keeps many borderline economic class kids out of sports.  Again, I have no problem with encouragement of all kids, even with participation certificates.  (I think it’s even better, as one of our hockey coaches did, to seek out something that each kid did during the season, and commemorate that in this case with a regular puck inscribed by hand with that event/skill.  That included things like best encourager on the team, quickest skate tier/stick taper.  But I think that making kids’ sports little replicas of adult sports makes lots of kids think that all those accoutrements are necessary to play.  Lots of kids don’t play other than scheduled practices and games. 

Take baseball.  In the US, kids have all the equipment, specially kept fields that are used for no other purpose, audiences of rapt adults, photo sessions and yes, the physical participation trophy for every kid.  Yet the major leagues are populated with players from the Dominican and other Latin American countries who talk about playing in the fields or streets with coconuts as balls.

Of course I’m talking about middle class white kids with lots of privilege - teams in poverty areas don’t spend the money on the imported landfill tchotkes - they’re lucky if they have cash for equipment and gas for the lawn mower for the field.  We work with a couple of programs - diversity in hockey and equipment donations in baseball.  And those generally aren’t the uber competitive teams either - those coaches are so focused on keeping kids off the streets from what I’ve seen they forget to be assholes.

Comment #188: phylosopher  on  06/25  at  02:38 AM

As much as 95% of the people in our culture can’t be arsed to show up to regular practices or put in the training on both good days and off days to even do that run. So yeah, I’m not going to complain if I get a tiny bit of SWAG after I’ve made a commitment that’s usually fun, but frequently inconvenient.
Comment #138: CBrachyrhynchos on 06/24 at 12:26 PM

IN the ‘burbs out here, where almost no one walks anywhere, and certainly NOT the widdle precious - someone might steal it! or it might get too tired from walking to play said sport -  getting to practice is based on parental driving - therefore that medal is confirmation that mom/dad was willing to play chauffeur. And lots of kids don’t know what commitment means because again - mom/dad double booked them in two sports or sports and another conflicting extracurricular - yet the still get the same trophy as the kid of parents who emphasized commitment and the need to make a choice because you can’t do everything.

Comment #189: phylosopher  on  06/25  at  02:48 AM

OK old fem - you want to talk about privilege - having that extra room to put that stuff is a privilege of those with larger houses, not to mention the extra cash (and it does add up, with most participation trophies in the $3-5 range - now extrapolate to team and league) that could be put to something like “scholarships” for kids who might not be able to afford the fees or equipment.  And again - most of these teams get jerseys and baseball caps - so there is already something tangible to commemorate the season - and the photos - don’t forget the ubiquitous team photo.

Comment #190: phylosopher  on  06/25  at  02:55 AM

Shaenon - have at your opinion on athletics - it is not akin to giftedness which is indeed innate.  Bodies change, thus balance and strength do - and one can build both speed, coordination and muscle.  Sorry, while one can learn, one cannot study one’s way to a higher IQ. 

Separating the highly gifted at an early age is indeed beneficial.  More and more studies show that GT students who are not challenged and given ability appropriate tasks from an early age are MORE likely to become dropouts or later academic failures.

Comment #191: phylosopher  on  06/25  at  03:02 AM

exholt, you are apparently unaware of the selection of public school districts in the USA that families from Asian countries specifically move to when they immigrate because they are considered—even in their home countries—to offer a rigorous education. And, yes, those districts are heavily populated by the very upper middle class students you sort of resent, but there it is.

Yes, but they are not typical of mainstream US K-12 schools, even the upper/upper-middle class suburban school districts from what I’ve heard from relatives and friends who teach/taught K-12, education profs, and hundreds of college classmates/undergrads I’ve met over this past two decades. 

If anything, the news reports I’ve read on those school districts is that they are a remarkable exception in US K-12 education.  Moreover, I’ve also read articles which mentioned how many upper/upper-middle class non-Asian parents…..especially the “Real Americans” actually making it a point to move out of such districts due to the Asian/Asian-American influx because of a combination of racism and the fact “Those Asians are making the schools too damned competitive.”

As I said, you can tell by the level of colleges the kids are going to: a mediocre suburban public school will have one or two top graduates a year that end up at a “name” school, while a superior one will send the top quintile or so to Ivy/Ivy-level colleges. Why? Because the school has high standards and the students and their parents are ambitious/motivated.

That and/or the suburban school district/private school are good at gaming the college admissions process.  That was certainly the case at a few such schools I know of in the Northeast where cousins and some friends attended or taught. 

Moreover, I’ve also learned that judging the high standards/effectiveness of a high school by the amount of students that are sent to Ivy/Ivy level colleges is highly dubious at best because of that gaming process and how high school academic performance/test scores is a poor indicator of undergraduate success.  While there are upper/upper-middle class suburban districts who send up to the top quintile to such institutions…..quite a few may not end up finishing at such places….or finish at all within 4-5 years.  And that’s even when for the vast majority of high school classmates…the grading practices at many of those institutions tends to be so lenient that an average student who half-asses some work and is a quasi-party animal should have no problems graduating with a 3.0+ from such places.

Comment #192: exholt  on  06/25  at  11:39 AM

Well, except for the fact that the parents are highly educated professionals who themselves attended top tier schools and insist that their children do the same as them and their peers, even the athletic ones.

Attending top tier schools and being a “highly educated professional” does not necessarily guarantee that parents who graduated from those places or the students currently attending are not anti-intellectual. 

One of the most common rants I heard from high school classmates who attended and graduated from Ivy/Ivy-level colleges is their degree of shock and surprise at how there was a strong current of anti-intellectualism among the majority of the students at such institutions.  They estimated that only about 10-15% of their classmates were seriously interested in learning anything beyond the bare minimums they thought were required for their prospective careers….and even that’s often done in a half-assed manner. 

Their experiences was confirmed personally when I had the opportunity to take several undergrad and grad-level courses at a couple of Ivies as a special student and I was stunned at how most of the students seemed so disinterested and disengaged in actually learning anything beyond what they perceived would help them land that I-banking or some other highly lucrative and prestigious job upon graduation….and that’s not even bringing in the multitudes of students who don’t even go that far because they already have a job lined up because mom and/or dad are owners or are senior executives at some Fortune 500 type corporation.  Add in the seemingly widespread upper/upper-middle-class entitlement complex of demanding A-level grades for C or even F quality work and it’s no wonder why they along with college classmates who ended up TAing undergrad classes at such places were so disappointed. 

What’s more is that their experience mirrored my own at my own undergrad….though not to the extremes they experienced…...and the slight anti-intellectual majority (around 55-60%) tended to do much more constructive things with their free time such as actively and passionately engaging in political activism/protests than their mainstream Ivy and Ivy-level counterparts. 

Furthermore, plenty of such parents tend to be among the US anti-intellectual majority who support the prioritization of school competitive sports over academic needs in K-12.  Relatives and friends who taught at many such school districts or are parents with children attending such schools have expressed much angst and disappointment at such parents populating the local PTAs.

Comment #193: exholt  on  06/25  at  11:39 AM

Especially if those degrees were from the Ivy, or even lesser business schools, exholt, or the medical ones.  Seems most of those focus on removing any conscience, any sense of history, and any altruistic intent from the student, along with any interest in the arts.  Very sad. 

Very often the reason they spend their 4 years at Kellog or Wharton is because that’s where the big firms exclusively recruit.  SO they see their 4 years as just “time served” for that interview - with the exception of building their future network of contacts.

Comment #194: phylosopher  on  06/25  at  12:41 PM

Mnemosyne #151:  I understand your point.  I probably wouldn’t start the 2-track system until junior high (middle school), mostly because that was when I learned to really, REALLY hate PE.  There was only a brief period of about 6 weeks my sophomore year where the modern dance class I took (it was that or ROTC) did “toning and conditioning”.  Basically, we all did stretches, crunches, leg lifts, blah, blah, and the only “competition” was with yourself, to see how much you improved.  It was the only time in my entire public school career that I actually started to enjoy PE again.

So, one would think that by 7th grade, a kid would be familiar with most types of exercise (aerobics and baseball in elementary school, for example), and could then *choose* which track they wanted for that year.  They could switch to the alternate track the next year, if they wanted.  I’m sure for some kids, it’s just a case of improving their stamina and strength so they can participate better in competitive sports.  At the very least, it would give options for those kids (like me) to get their bodies moving without being blamed for every game lost (I threatened to start calling myself “Jinx” at one point).

Helen #155:  So the lower achievers are shuffled into trade/technical schools.  Is this a totally bad thing?  I know in my high school there were LOTS of kids who would have been perfectly happy to go learn a trade, because they had no desire at all to go to college.  They hated academics, thought it was boring, and for many of them, Shop and Home Ec were the only classes they liked.  They couldn’t WAIT to stop going to school, and it often resulted in disruptive behavior in class so kids who did want to go to college later ended up with teachers who were playing referee instead of teaching. 

Considering I just paid a plumber $80 an hour to fix my sink, would learning a trade really be such a bad thing?

Comment #195: Mhorag  on  06/25  at  01:11 PM

OK old fem - you want to talk about privilege - having that extra room to put that stuff is a privilege of those with larger houses, not to mention the extra cash (and it does add up, with most participation trophies in the $3-5 range - now extrapolate to team and league) that could be put to something like “scholarships” for kids who might not be able to afford the fees or equipment.  And again - most of these teams get jerseys and baseball caps - so there is already something tangible to commemorate the season - and the photos - don’t forget the ubiquitous team photo.
Comment #190: phylosopher on 06/25 at 01:55 AM

OK “‘los’er.”

Medals don’t take up that much room; participation trophies aren’t usually very big according to the articles.  If you have a lot of them then maybe you ditch the ones that aren’t so important; if you only have a few, you still have a few, if you want to display them.  We’re not talking endless trophy cases with a requirement to keep all trophies or forego the glory that goes therewith.

You get the clothing and equipment at the beginning of the season.  It doesn’t commemorate anything other than being prepared sartorially for the event.

Extrapolate to team and league?  Then divide by the number of players.  Math isn’t that hard, the cost per player doesn’t add up any faster than the fees the players pay.

And lots of kids don’t know what commitment means because again - mom/dad double booked them in two sports or sports and another conflicting extracurricular - yet the still get the same trophy as the kid of parents who emphasized commitment and the need to make a choice because you can’t do everything.
Comment #189: phylosopher on 06/25 at 01:48 AM

So the trophy doesn’t perfectly match the child’s acheivement?  Glory be.  I guess all the crappy players on championship teams should get shittier trophies than the superstars on those teams, right?  What about great players on shitty teams?  What about great players with crappy coaches, do they get a different color ribbon from crappy players with great coaches?

Maybe we also need to prorate the trophy size to attendance and make it smaller if the child is in more than one sport and we judge that the child isn’t putting full effort into this one.

Gimme a break.  The trophy is one of many things a child can get out of competitive sports.  It’s not a holographic representation of the child’s participation.  Let’s not try to make it everything, or nothing.

Comment #196: oldfeminist  on  06/25  at  03:27 PM

Talk about being unable to follow the thread befuddled (Loser) fem.  Try reading what that was in response to - a commitment on the part of the kid to SHOW UP.  When it ain’t in the kids power or responsibility. 

So, it’s better to have everyone throw $3 bucks in the trash by a circuitous route, than have that go to a) scholarships so that economically challenged kids can play (Yeah even the most affluent suburbs have kids like that) or b) cut the price a bit for everyone - remember if you have multiple kids in the family that $3 for meaningless trophies + $10 for photos + fancy uniforms ($10) over a basic t-shirt that’s $23 bucks.  Yes it adds up.  And it keeps some kids from playing - yet I’m the one accused of being classist? Jeebus fucking christ.

Comment #197: phylosopher  on  06/25  at  04:20 PM

I was apparently hugely lucky growing up, as none of my coaches (I played soccer and softball) were assholes, and by the time I had an asshole gym teacher (sophmore year of high school, I believe), I already knew I loved sports and that guy was just an asshole who could go fuck himself.

Part of me wonders if that is because I was growing up in a semi-sweet spot of girls playing sports. It had been around long enough by then that it wasn’t weird for a girl to play sports, but not so long that people had yet to get really REALLY psycho about it. I sort of suspect girl’s soccer and basketball might be a little more crazy these days.

My only issue with “everyone gets a trophy” is that it’s assuming kids are idiots who don’t notice everyone gets a trophy. Like it or not, competition is part of sports, and trying to disguise it with something like that is probably futile. Plus I know my parents would’ve prefered LESS trophies in my house (I’m the oldest of four and we ALL played sports).

Comment #198: Sjofn  on  06/25  at  09:34 PM

“Talk about being unable to follow the thread befuddled (Loser) fem. “

You obviously didn’t understand why I shortened your name into “‘los’er” changing its meaning.  It’s because you shortened mine, changing its meaning.  I’m not an old fem.  I’m an old feminist.

If you think I’m befuddled, please explain how giving out participation trophies means poor people have to then acquire and set aside a separate room for them.

Comment #199: oldfeminist  on  06/26  at  01:21 AM

Sjofn, I don’t think anyone who gives out participation trophies thinks it will keep kids from noticing who won and who lost.  They do notice when kids who don’t win feel like they wasted a whole year and are worthless.  Maybe good athletes just don’t know what it’s like to be mediocre or lousy, through no fault of your own, despite trying.

Comment #200: oldfeminist  on  06/26  at  01:25 AM

Sorry, while one can learn, one cannot study one’s way to a higher IQ.

Actually, that’s not necessarily true as I remembered reading somewhere that IQ and other psychometric tests are highly coachable and IQ scores can also greatly increase or decrease depending on environmental factors, socio-economic status changes, and the state of one’s mental health at that point in one’s life. 

More importantly, I’m not sure how meaningful such tests are considering it does not measure important traits in demonstrating intelligence such as hard work ethic, persistence in getting something done despite challenging difficulties, knowing how to deal with and learn from others in professional and social situations, and more. 

Met far too many high IQ scorers in college and a couple of MENSA meetings who never amounted to much because they were overentitled, lazy, and/or had serious problems following through on anything.  A reason why I refused to join MENSA when I was invited to in high school. 

Separating the highly gifted at an early age is indeed beneficial.  More and more studies show that GT students who are not challenged and given ability appropriate tasks from an early age are MORE likely to become dropouts or later academic failures.

I would agree with this, but only because highly motivated and engaged students need to be around other highly motivated and engaged students to maintain an encouraging atmosphere and maximize their potential. 

If such students are surrounded with classmates who aren’t nearly as motivated and engaged or worse, don’t give a crap about academics…...the resulting atmosphere can be extremely demoralizing and draining for those highly motivated and engaged students, especially when they exist in a toxic mainstream US K-12 culture which tends to ignore and even devalue academic achievers in favor of school athletes hoping to become the next NBA/NFL mvp and “popular people” who obsess over becoming the next famous celebrity.  rolleyes

Comment #201: exholt  on  06/26  at  05:45 AM

Potentially topical (though certainly male oriented):

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/175263/tomgram:_robert_lipsyte,_fathers_playing_tough_with_sons_/

Comment #202: scathew  on  06/26  at  01:06 PM

I’m not sure how meaningful such tests are considering it does not measure important traits in demonstrating intelligence such as hard work ethic,

Intelligence is one of those things that means nothing, unless you don’t have it, in which case it means everything, though thankfully intelligence is extremely common and many people probably have enough intelligence to master most of the high school material.

As to how this relates to sports, most anyone with reasonable athletic ability can train to do 7ish minute miles in long distance running, but at some point you realize you’re competing with genetic mutants who have always been able to run a 5+ minute mile and keep up a long distance pace in the low 6 minute range. 

Like school academics, school sports are supposed to be calibrated to what can be mastered by the typical, not the extreme cases. I tend to think that people are more academically capable of what we think they can do, but we generally think that math up to at least pre-calc if not calculus shpuld be accessible to most everyone, and it is not unreasonable to think that fitness, and even competitive sports, should be accessible to the wide population of students as well.

Comment #203: Tyro  on  06/26  at  01:53 PM

I tend to think that people are more academically capable of what we think they can do, but we generally think that math up to at least pre-calc if not calculus shpuld be accessible to most everyone, and it is not unreasonable to think that fitness, and even competitive sports, should be accessible to the wide population of students as well.

One of the greatest reasons for the mass alienation of so many people from playing competitive sports or partaking in any athletic activities is because the US is so damned competitive sports-crazy that if one cannot perform at the level of becoming the next mvp in the NFL or NBA, they are completely written off. 

This is one reason why so many people I’ve known were extremely turned off by competitive sports or athletic activities altogether. 

To immigrants from East Asian education systems like my parents and older relatives, they have a hard time understanding how so many students, parents, teachers/educrats, and American society at large inflate the importance of competitive sports in K-12 to what they view as such a ridiculous extent that academic priorities such as allocating enough funding for schoolbooks, gifted academic programs, and teaching the arts/music are cut or even completely scrapped. 

Worse….most such students, parents, and teachers/educrats are not only ok with this, but are, in practice, actually quite disdainful of the very things the immigrants mentioned above saw as the very foundational raison d’etre of K-12 schooling. 

One part of the solution to this issue is to seriously reduce this competitive “sports-mania” in US education system by insisting that everyone, especially the competitive athletes are students first, athletes second and do away with special breaks granted to such athletes such as dumbed down courses/majors in college specifically designed for “scholar-athletes” or the excessively generous deadlines that are given to athletes and no one else participating in other co/extra-curricular activities with similarly heavy time commitments such as highly competitive math/debate teams or those participating in National science competitions.

Comment #204: exholt  on  06/26  at  03:01 PM

To immigrants from East Asian education systems like my parents and older relatives, they have a hard time understanding how so many students, parents, teachers/educrats, and American society at large inflate the importance of competitive sports in K-12

Yes, which is why there is absolutely no stereotype whatsoever of east Asian-American students being on the tennis team. “High achiever” parents are not as naive and clueless as you think they are and tend to understand that “overachiever” means top grades/run the newspaper/play a varsity sport or two. 

Also, 200 comments in and there’s been no mention of the trend of young adults in cities joining kickball teams?

Comment #205: Tyro  on  06/26  at  06:05 PM

“High achiever” parents are not as naive and clueless as you think they are and tend to understand that “overachiever” means top grades/run the newspaper/play a varsity sport or two.

Tyro,

First of all, you and I both very well know that when I mention sports-mania in US K-12 schools, that is mainly referring to the two sports* which tends to dominate school funding priorities in mainstream in US K-12 schools and mainstream American student dreams of winning an athletic scholarship to some Division I school.  Last I checked, sports like tennis aren’t included in that category.  I have yet to hear of a widespread trend among mainstream K-12 American kids clamoring to become tennis players in the hopes of wrangling a Division I scholarship to an Ivy or other Division I Universities. 

Moreover, you’re probably speaking more of first-generation or later Asian-American parents and a minority of influx of upper/upper-middle class Asian immigrants who respectively had the benefit of experiencing or gaining and more importantly, actually accepting the information of the realities of the American college admissions process. 

That’s still not the majority of the cases judging by how many recent immigrant families still react to the school counselors’ and first-generation Asian-Americans who have tried informing them that it is much more than maxing out one’s standardized test scores and GPA and possibly mastering an “acceptable” musical instrument such as the piano or violin to little avail.  Heck, friends who teach K-12 in predominantly Asian/Asian-American communities and I still encounter plenty of Asian-American K-12 students whose immigrant parents are highly resistant to them joining in the “sports-mania” beyond playing a sport to get some exercise and to maintain some camaraderie with their classmates and friends.  Anything more than that is still considered a huge frivolous distraction from their “actual priorities”. 


* Mainly football and basketball.

Comment #206: exholt  on  06/26  at  07:35 PM

You can’t get a “Division 1 scholarship to an Ivy.”  The Ivies do not give athletic scholarships.  Any aid that a student going there gets is based on family’s financial need.  Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise or try to pretend that Johnny got a water polo scholarship to Princeton or Billy got a football scholarship to Harvard.  Johnny got into Princeton, Billy got into Harvard, and P & H are filling their financial needs the same way they are for Julie the artist and Jose the engineer.

Comment #207: Susanne  on  06/27  at  03:15 PM

That’s still not the majority of the cases judging by how many recent immigrant families

True, but that’s not to majority of the cases of anyone. I was referring to the most successful/high-achieving ones, especially because tennis has the same sort of class cachet as playing violin and piano and the like.

And as Susanne points out, there are no sports scholarships to Ivy League schools. The idea of becoming a successful football or basketball star and getting a scholarship is an idea pretty much limited to the middle classes and definitely not in the northeast, especially because a football scholarship or something like that is given to go to a state school. High-achiever families want their kids to get into a top-tier university where athletic talent, if any, (soccer and tennis more than basketball or football whose desirability recedes as you get up into the upper middle class) is more of a “bonus/hook” to help them get in rather than any source of scholarship dreams. Your perspective on these things tends to be kind of provincial, especially since your association with “jocks” tends to be juvenile delinquents, whereas if I had to come up with a stereotype of “high achievers,” even among Asian immigrant families, I’d point to the guy who had top grades, played two varsity sports and was president of the student council and I think was in the orchestra (he ultimately went to medical school).

Look, exholt, I see where you’re coming from: I was a min-maxer from an immigrant family in high school as well, as were most of my friends, and it worked out well in the college admissions game. But the more people you see and encounter, the more you realize that (a) the very successful ones were the “max-maxers”: people who mastered a lot of aspects of high school, including having athletic outlets, and that the stereotype of a football obsessed middle America, while true in many ways, doesn’t apply among high-achiever-type environments where the competitive challenge is to find a niche where you stand out and are talented, compared to your peers. Maybe you’ll see this a little bit better when your friends decided to raise their families in the suburbs in Short Hills, NJ or Pelham, NY or send their kids to Fieldston, or something.

Once again, trying to stay on topic: the point is that when everyone has a wealth of opportunities to “do their own thing” in high school, whether it means playing football, running cross country, playing field hockey, or being on the tennis team, aerobic activity becomes less of a “sorting mechanism” and more of the sort of thing that’s just part of your life.

Comment #208: Tyro  on  06/27  at  04:36 PM

You can’t get a “Division 1 scholarship to an Ivy.” The Ivies do not give athletic scholarships.  Any aid that a student going there gets is based on family’s financial need.

That may be the official line, but several people I’ve known who worked in Ivy school admissions or taught for 2 or more decades at such institutions have told me that the scholarships are routinely given “under the table” and disguised as those “based on financial need” to try recruiting the best players possible while avoiding the scrutiny and ire of the student body, faculty, and the greater public.  It also seems to be an open secret among those who attended and/or worked on those campuses to the extent there are plenty of inside-jokes about this practice on those campuses. 

There’s also plenty of resentment of such “scholar-athletes” among students and especially some faculty members who resent the fact they were admitted with lower academic standards and once on campus, allowed generous extensions, “make-up work”, and graded much more leniently….allowances which were often not available to other students pursuing similar time-consuming yet non-Div I-athletic activities.

Comment #209: exholt  on  06/27  at  04:53 PM

Your perspective on these things tends to be kind of provincial, especially since your association with “jocks” tends to be juvenile delinquents, whereas if I had to come up with a stereotype of “high achievers,” even among Asian immigrant families, I’d point to the guy who had top grades, played two varsity sports and was president of the student council and I think was in the orchestra (he ultimately went to medical school).

Actually, that’s a stereotype I’d associate mainly with upper/upper-middle class highly assimilated/totally assimilated Asian-American families where the parents/grandparents are first-generation+ Americans or a tiny minority of immigrants who were already upper/upper-middle class by US standard before they immigrated to tthe US. 

I’ve had plenty of glimpses into this world as that was the world of my upper-middle class cousins raised in near all-White suburbs in the Northeast, South, West Coast, and Hawaii.  Their experiences and lives are far from the norm for the vast majority of Asian immigrants/Asian-Americans….especially as the vast majority do not have the socio-economic privilege and/or the inclination to become so thoroughly assimilated into what is commonly perceived as mainstream US[Read upper/upper-middle class White suburban] culture.

But the more people you see and encounter, the more you realize that (a) the very successful ones were the “max-maxers”

I would agree with this.  However, the max-maxers I’ve met in the professional world tended to be those who were both equally and genuinely adept at STEM field/hobbies such as doing “White-hat” hacking as a side-job/fun hobby and highly artistic/creative fields/hobbies such as writing poetry, creating sculptures, and being a full/part-time original musicians performing out in public.

In most of the professional areas I’ve been to, sports was regarded more as something you took great glory/pride in beyond just having a fun game among friends when you were in high school.  While it is ok to take pride in it, making it a main or even an important part of what you took pride in was often seen as conforming to the stereotype of the “washed up football star” whose life peaked in high school and declined thereafter…much like Biff Loman from the Arthur Miller play “Death of a Salesman”.

Comment #210: exholt  on  06/27  at  05:14 PM

There’s also plenty of resentment of such “scholar-athletes” among students and especially some faculty members who resent the fact they were admitted with lower academic standards and once on campus, allowed generous extensions, “make-up work”, and graded much more leniently….allowances which were often not available to other students pursuing similar time-consuming yet non-Div I-athletic activities.
Comment #209: exholt on 06/27 at 03:53 PM

I would wonder if they got those extensions and so on because of a learning disability, not because they are athletes.  The non-athletes who get extra time to take tests and so on might not be under the same scrutiny.

Of course then there’s the question of whether they really do have an LD or just a doctor who will sign off on one because he’s got a promising career in *ball ahead of him.  But I’ll bet some really do have a real LD.

Comment #211: oldfeminist  on  06/28  at  04:06 PM
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