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When the role of schoolmarm is offered, please say no thank you

FeminismSex

Excellent piece in Salon on why Anthony Weiner is getting denounced by the same congress critters who backed Charlie Rangel, who was actually accused of real ethics violations, and not just being a sad dude who bolsters his ego by getting ladies on the internet to tell him he's sexy.  Basically, Weiner didn't make a lot of friends, and that's apparently what matters the most.  I want to pull something from it, however, that's marginal to the point of the piece:

Several of his House colleagues, including the woman tasked with recruiting candidates for the 2012 elections, said it in the days following Weiner’s admission last week that he’d sent lewd photos to several young women. And now Nancy Pelosi, the House Democratic leader, and Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, the chairwoman of the Democratic National Committee, have joined the chorus.

So the finger-wagging work has been relegated to the women.  Great.  But it's not just in Congress.  Erin Gloria Ryan of Jezebel wrote a piece about how Weiner's situation is causing her to question the trustworthiness of all the men in her life.

When men whom I admire let their families down- Anthony Weiner, to use a timely example, or Bill Clinton, to use an example that Jay Leno still likes to use as joke fodder- I can't help but apply it to my own life. If men like that are capable of lying to their families and to the public, then who's to say that the men in my life aren't doing the same to me? When men in public mess up, they're making it a little worse for other men, as the more I learn about the level of deceit that seemingly good men are capable of, the more gun-shy I feel about what men tell me, the less inclined I am to believe everything a man tells me. I become a side-eye machine, cross examining, and disbelieving mundane things.

Yes, let's make this about men vs. women. Erin is being a bit tongue-in-cheek (I think), and admits that it's unfair to judge all men by the actions of a few.  But still, this entire piece bothered me because once again it upholds an extremely conservative view of gender, where men are naughty little boys with overactive libidos and women are scolding schoolmarms whose trustworthiness is assured because we're practically asexual.  

Women should resist this crap with all our might.  In this moment, it feels pretty good, I'm sure, because it casts women as morally superior and all that.  Though that alone should give anyone with feminist sympathies pause, since we should be striving to unite men and women as equals, and avoid this pitting them against each other shit that sexists do.  But not only is that a problem in terms of truth (women cheat nearly as much as men, and most research points to the gap as being most likely a matter of opportunity and not desire), but also because this is just the patriarchy selling the same old double standard, but dressing it up and making it seem like it's a good thing so we're happier to embrace this church lady shit.   And while this double standard occasionally chews up a  man like Weiner, the main victims are women.  It's a short leap from insinuating that women are the more chaste sex to saying women should be chaste at all times, and if they aren't, then they deserve to be abused. I wrote a piece at RH Reality Check showing how thoroughly this is about using sex as a weapon against women that I'll hope you read.  When prudery expands, it's women whose rights get legally constrained, women whose clothing choices get monitored, women who are raped and then told they brought it on themselves by being unchaste.  

All this finger-wagging about Weiner distracts from that, but it's worth remembering that even in this case, the driving force behind it was the conservative desire to punish and abuse women for failing to live up to arbitrary and often impossible modesty standards.  Don't forget that conservatives were combing through Weiner's online contacts, finding the women, and closely examining---for the good of the nation, no doubt---their online pictures for short skirts and cleavage-showing shirts, anything that could used as evidence of sluttery.  It's distressing to see other women mindlessly rewarding this sexual witch hunt because the ostensible target is a man.  Not only is that inexcusable on its surface, but it's self-defeating.  

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 08:56 AM • (218) Comments

The thing is, this isn’t a sexual witch hunt.  At least one of the women - the most recent - has claimed that the pictures were not solicited, and that puts Weiner at the level of guys who suddenly sharply change the conversation to make it dirty out of nowhere and then send you pictures of their junk.  It’s creepy and it’s sexual harassment, and I’m really wondering how long people on the left, including you, are going to continue ignoring this; it was in the New York Times, for goodness’ sakes.  He was sexually harassing her.  I think it’s incumbent upon us as feminists to call out that kind of behaviour, particularly when it comes from powerful voices in the movement, or we’re no better than the right-wingers we don’t call out for refusing to police the behaviour that they claim is important to them.  I would be happy if more men (Ta-Nehisi Coates did) pointed out that angle, but if it’s just women then so be it, since we’re usually the ones who experience this kind of harassment anyway.  There seems to be mostly a dead silence about the consent issue behind these exchanges, and I’m sitting here thinking, what the fuck?  Seriously!  What the fuck?

If consent is important to us then we absolutely have to address the fact that Weiner did not engage consensually in all of these interactions.  It makes all of the difference.  I hope you know me well enough to know that I’m not a troll and I’m not just trying to stir up the shit, but it is starting to seriously bother me to see how much this has been ignored on the left in general.  It’s disappointing.

Comment #1: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  09:47 AM

I apologize if this is a repost, and you can feel free to delete one of the comments if this is, but my comment didn’t show up, so let’s try again:

The thing is, this isn’t a sexual witch hunt.  At least one of the women - the most recent - has claimed that the pictures were not solicited, and that puts Weiner at the level of guys who suddenly sharply change the conversation to make it dirty out of nowhere and then send you pictures of their junk.  It’s creepy and it’s sexual harassment, and I’m really wondering how long people on the left, including you, are going to continue ignoring this; it was in the New York Times, for goodness’ sakes.  He was sexually harassing her.  I think it’s incumbent upon us as feminists to call out that kind of behaviour, particularly when it comes from powerful voices in the movement, or we’re no better than the right-wingers we don’t call out for refusing to police the behaviour that they claim is important to them.  I would be happy if more men (Ta-Nehisi Coates did) pointed out that angle, but if it’s just women then so be it, since we’re usually the ones who experience this kind of harassment anyway.  There seems to be mostly a dead silence about the consent issue behind these exchanges, and I’m sitting here thinking, what the fuck?  Seriously!  What the fuck?

If consent is important to us then we absolutely have to address the fact that Weiner did not engage consensually in all of these interactions.  It makes all of the difference.  I hope you know me well enough to know that I’m not a troll and I’m not just trying to stir up the shit, but it is starting to seriously bother me to see how much this has been ignored on the left in general.  It’s disappointing.

Comment #2: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  09:49 AM

In a country where an incredible number of Reichwing excesses get quietly pushed into a corner and the sleazebags committing them are seldom ejected from our political institutions, it is difficult to pile on to Weiner.

If we had two political parties who both took these things seriously (if indeed harassment was involved), then putting our own failures in front of the firing squad is the right and proper thing to do.

When one party talks a good game about Morality and Family Values while doing nothing about their own violators, and the other party talks about the importance of respect, consent, and proper treatment of women and gets pilloried when each instance of bad behavior is exposed, do we just commit political suicide and throw more politicians on the bonfire?...

Comment #3: MikeEss  on  06/13  at  10:34 AM

MikeEss, it is disingenuous to pretend as if consent magically doesn’t matter to us this one time while we simultaneously point out that the right wing doesn’t actually treat “family values” as if they were important in their personal lives.  Now, whether or not it’s political suicide, I care about not being a massive fucking hypocrite.

However, that’s not the only thing that I care about.  I care about the fact that it’s wrong, the fact that Weiner sent unsolicited pictures of his penis to a woman who did not want them.  It can’t only matter when it happens in the street with some guy who is not politically important to us.  That isn’t how it works.  That is devaluing consent in general, and I am completely fucking mind-boggled at how easy it to say, “Well, it’s not politically expedient to act as if consent matters this time.”  I’m honestly fucking mind-blown at your response, and Amanda’s, and most of the media’s.  This is amazing.

Comment #4: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  10:41 AM

Also, if you’re seriously saying, “if indeed harassment was involved,” the woman said outright that she did not solicit pictures, and in any other case sending random pictures of your dick to people who didn’t express interest constitutes fucking harassment, and so you’re basically intimating that she might be a liar.  So we’re into victim-blaming territory.  Great.  Because it’s a valuable figure.

Is this all we’re worth?  Really?

Comment #5: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  10:43 AM

All this still doesn’t address the question of why it’s the women in the democratic party who are apparently stuck in the role of the ones talking about the case. Interestingly, that’s not so for the GOP, where it’s mostly men who have defended other politicans guilty of lewd behavior who are going of on Weiner.

Comment #6: paul  on  06/13  at  10:54 AM

Do women and men have equal sex drives?  Women don’t masturbate as much as men, right?  Wasn’t that established on the classic “Master of Your Domain” episode of Seinfeld?

I know this is gonna blow your mind, but TV is make-believe, okay? Also, there’s no Santa.

 

Comment #7: Well, what?  on  06/13  at  11:05 AM

Int, I haven’t heard about the comaining he harassed them, just the chats where it was consensual. Either way, it’s disingenuous to believe the outrage is about consent. Even if it was 100% consensual, the outrage would be exactly the same. I’m responding to the prudery. I’m uncomfortable equating the explicit prudery with genuine concerns about consent.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/13  at  11:14 AM

Is it possible to talk seriously about the consent issue then, rather than just focussing on the problem with women who fall into prudish tropes?  It must be possible to unpack this issue enough that we are able to focus on the thing he actually did wrong rather than on the thing that freaks out so many Americans.

Comment #9: Eileen  on  06/13  at  11:22 AM

Vincent….  yawn.

Comment #10: Eileen  on  06/13  at  11:24 AM

Vincent, sex scandals have about as much to do with sex drive as rape does. Sex scandals are about good old-fashioned male entitlement, not about “how horny they are.” It’s about people in a position of power feeling like they can do whatever they like without consequences. Female politicians, who are usually targeted with nasty sexist invective during their run know that they are already behind the 8-ball because they dare to be a woman who speaks up, so they aren’t as likely to feel that they can get away with anything like a popular male politician is.

Comment #11: Mighty Ponygirl  on  06/13  at  11:24 AM

Someone else tried to bring harassment into the picture.  Maybe my google-fu is failing me, but so far the only reports that the pictures he sent were unsolicited show up on unsubstantiated Drudge Report blurbs.

ITNPagan, can you link to these harassment allegations?

Comment #12: cynickal  on  06/13  at  11:24 AM

Vincent, maybe the female politicians, having had to work like three times as hard to even make it into politics, have already largely been self-sorted for the sort of prudence that makes it unlikely that they’ll engage in such moronic behavior.

Comment #13: felagund  on  06/13  at  11:28 AM

At least one of the women - the most recent - has claimed that the pictures were not solicited, and that puts Weiner at the level of guys who suddenly sharply change the conversation to make it dirty out of nowhere and then send you pictures of their junk.

Or more at the level of a porn spammer trawling for customers with pop-ups and the like. Either way, it’s creepy.

Women tell me that guys on some dating sites regularly send crotch shots amongst the first batch of “this is what I look like” photos—quite an opener! I’m not sure why someone would think it’s a good idea to whip it out unsolicited in an introductory phase, but it seems common on-line.

When men in public mess up, they’re making it a little worse for other men

I find that it works just as often the opposite way—unless the woman in question is the generally suspicious sort despite her claims that she isn’t. I avoid getting involved with that type the moment she tips her hand.

In this moment, it feels pretty good, I’m sure, because it casts women as morally superior and all that.

I don’t know for sure if it even does that. We don’t know anything about the women on the other sides of those IM exchanges. Perhaps they had boyfriends they were cyber-cheating on, or were pretending to be more moral than they are.

Actually, on that last point, at least one woman (the one from the dramatic and NSFW reading given by Maher and Lynch) does indeed say that she pretends to be a chaste “good girl” when she’s not. I’d agree with her that can be a lot of fun (except if you’re a politician or preacher or other public figure who’s made a career out of being a moral scold or by enforcing the vice laws one breaks).

The obvious point being, women can be as much horndogs as men, and thank goodness for it. Few people get much flack for being caught out as sluts while pretending otherwise, either; that only happens when one has the misfortune of being a public figure. At that point, the prudes and the MSM roll out their patented Carnival of BS.

Basically, Weiner didn’t make a lot of friends, and that’s apparently what matters the most.

Well, why should life in a corporate-controlled Congress be any different than in your average American BigCorp? The HR/4th Purpose Culture has infected every institution of American life.

Comment #14: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  11:29 AM

Either way, it’s disingenuous to believe the outrage is about consent.

Nor is the outrage about hypocrisy, since Weiner wasn’t pretending to be some Judeo-Xtian moral paragon and going about shaming sluts and denouncing Teh Gayz, etc.. It’s first and foremost driven by prudery and sensationalism—the foundation of all such scandals about public figures.

Comment #15: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  11:36 AM

Can we agree that sending pictures of your genitals to people who have not expressed any interest in seeing them is contemptible AND that the outraged response of congresscritters is at best convenient and probably also dangerous prudery?  The Salon story called Weiner’s behavior victimless.  Wrong.  But its main point, about Charles Rangel getting off too easy, was right. 

If I were writing the post, I would have emphasized the harm of Weiner’s harassment.  But I’m against telling bloggers that they have to recite a catechism just to show how enlightened they are.  From my reading, feminist denunciation of Weiner’s no-consent behavior is well covered (Shakesville, Reclusive Leftist) but nobody else is covering the prudery, and that issue matters.

Comment #16: Unree  on  06/13  at  11:47 AM

Shakesville covered it, linking to the New York Times covering it.  Ta-Nehisi Coates has covered it as well.  Other than that, I’m seeing a thundering silence on the left on the issue of consent.

I take issue with this post because it continues to pretend, just like most of the left media and blogosphere is doing right now, that this is just about issues relating to consenting adults.  No, it is NOT, it’s been made clear that it’s not, and I’m really irritated at the complete lack of attention to that angle.  I could give two shits if he cheats on his wife because that’s not related to his job.  I don’t care where he puts his junk or who he sends pictures of it to, but when they’re unsolicited that is sexual harassment and fucking no one is talking about it even though that’s a BIG deal, supposedly, to feminists.  I feel like I’ve lost my fucking mind here, and comments like MikeEss’s up there, intimating that the bitch is probably just lying about it anyway (because why ELSE would he say “if harassment even happened” or whatever) sound like something out of a Twilight-Zone version of MikeEss and Pandagon.  Fuck!  No, it’s NOT that I want to see a left-wing politician nailed to a cross; in fact, I’m deeply hurt that someone who has such an amazingly powerful voice lowered himself to this level of fuckery, but that does not make it fucking okay to send pictures of your dick to random women who like you as a progressive, and I’m bewildered by the angle that it does.  So it’s political suicide, so fucking what?  He was harassing women!  Why are politics all that matters about it? 

Amanda, I understand your angle, but the fact that you have completely failed to notice or respond to the consent issue (and you take in way too much media, I think, to have failed to see the articles that I linked) is legitimately disappointing to me.  Acting as if prudery is the only angle on this is completely erasing the fact that he’s a harasser according to at least one of the women to whom he sent pictures (even if she doesn’t word it that way), and it’s honestly upsetting.  I’m kerflummoxed.  Whatever.  This is insane.

Comment #17: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  11:48 AM

Vincent,

What the fuck are you talking about? Seriously: you’re on a feminist blog and you’re making the most dunderheaded sexist stereotypes imaginable. What empirical evidence do you have to back up the contention that women don’t masturbate as much as men? None. And don’t bother telling me about some bullshit survey, because the asshat prudery of our society will make women underreport their self-adventures. And Bill Clinton and Anthony Weiner most certainly *acted* like morons.

Comment #18: felagund  on  06/13  at  11:50 AM

And, for the record, I don’t care about what everyone else’s outrage is about; they can go fuck themselves sideways.  I care about the fact that there seems to be no outrage about the fact that a powerful progressive political figure was sending women pictures of his dick after the style of a flasher.  And YES, Weiner is a hypocrite, for being a progressive and being for women’s rights while simultaneously treating women online who supported his politics as fucktoys who obviously just wanted to see his dick.  And I care about that, and why y’all don’t is honestly beyond me.

Comment #19: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  11:51 AM

Do you really think women masturbate as much as men?  Name a female politician who has been entangled in a sex scandal.

That’s your logic? Female politicians don’t get entangled in sex scandals because their libidos aren’t as as high as those of men? Please.

Anecdote time: when I was about 14, I worked a summer job surrounded by mostly female employees. Being a quiet young fellow who blended into the background, they often forgot I was there and started talking amongst themselves about sex. It was an education, lemme tell ya. Enough of an education that a few years later I wasn’t shocked to find that a woman could f*ck even my highly-sexed self past the point of exhaustion.

Female politicians are more careful because they understand that the Carnival of BS, being the patriarchal institution that it is, will come down on them 10 times harder than it would on someone like Weiner.

Comment #20: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  11:51 AM

Yeah, I can just see it.  “Nancy Pelosi’s bra was briefly visible when she hunched over getting out of a car.”

“THAT SLUT!”

I would also point out that many, though not all, of the women who hold prominent public office are old enough that, unlike men, they have been excused from 24/7 duties as the Sex Class.  People would be shocked to see women older than 40 being remotely sexual, so I think they don’t look for it out of them the way that they look for it from men.  The public would probably die from a collective heart attack if they found out that any of the women in public office are capable of desire, due to the ladypart-shrinking influence of political power combined with their obviously super-advanced age.

Except for Sarah Palin.

Comment #21: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  12:00 PM

And YES, Weiner is a hypocrite, for being a progressive and being for women’s rights while simultaneously treating women online who supported his politics as fucktoys who obviously just wanted to see his dick.

I’ll take that over the hypocrisy of being a conservative and being against women’s rights while simultaneously treating women online who supported his politics like Kleenex (or even treating them like princesses). I don’t really give a damn what a politician does sexually in private as long as he isn’t trying to legislate morality in public.

I would have warned off any woman I know from dating Ted Kennedy, who was a hypocrite in the same way you describe Weiner. I would have also urged the same women to vote for him, precisely because he was a hypocrite in the same way you describe Weiner.

It would be nice if progressive politicians were as pure as you and the MSM demand. Most aren’t.

Comment #22: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  12:05 PM

I agree with INTPagan that there are some questionable issues of consent that make me uncomfortable with this story.  I listen to a podcast that read several transcripts of the conversations that were going on.  I apologize for not remembering which woman was involved, but she clearly kept bringing the conversation back to politics while he kept steering it toward how hard it all made him.  However, that does not erase the hypocrisy of Republicans who protect David Vitter but now demand that Weiner resign immediately.

Regarding the Jasmijn Rijcken story, it’s looking like this was a guerrilla marketing campaign for her bike company, of which she runs the PR.  You can find this discussed in the comments section of both the Gothamist article that you linked as well as the Streetsblog article linked on your RH Reality Check post.

Comment #23: Blitzgal  on  06/13  at  12:08 PM

The problem with that theory is that clearly Bill Clinton and Anthony Weiner are not morons.

Smart people do moronic things all the time. 

A single man certainly can go a week without masturbating, but likely will not.  A single woman can also go a week without masturbating, and possibly will.

Evidence?

And by the way, since you seem to believe that TV is reality, you are misremembering the Seinfeld episode.  Elaine not only did not win the bet, but she was the first person to fold.

Anyway, back to the topic under discussion.  I take sexual harassment quite seriously, and as I make a habit of believing women in these circumstances, I believe the woman in Seattle.  And I still don’t want Weiner to resign, and I think it’s ridiculous of the Democratic leadership to call for his head. 

This tendency to eat their own and bend over for any hint of Republican outrage is why they haven’t gotten a fucking foothold in terms of the popular political discourse or legislation. They do not want to win. They do not do what it takes to win. Clarence Thomas repeatedly, disgustingly, and humiliatingly sexually harassed a woman in horrible ways, and Republicans were all “Eh, no big deal.” David Vitter, as we all know, sits in Congress reminiscing about paying women for sex a few years back, and if you think he’s actually stopped, it is my opinion that you are quite the naif. Republican Congressman Donald Lukens of Ohio was just a few days ago convicted of having sex with sixteen-year-old, intends to run again in the next election, and I have yet to read the nation-wide calls for his head.

Look, if the liberals of this country could find it in their hearts to forgive and lionize Ted fucking Kennedy, with his constant cheating and womanizing, his drinking, to say nothing of abandoning Mary Jo Kopechne to her death and lying about some of what happened (according to the inquest), why, precisely must Anthony Weiner take a leave of absence and/or resign? Kennedy was a wildly successful liberal legislator despite his general character failings. He was elected again and again—indeed, post-Chappaquiddick, he asked the Massachussetts electorate whether or not he should stay in office, and a year later, he won 62% of the vote. So, Kennedy, who let a young woman die (and cheated and lied and drank), has the right to run again, but Weiner is so heinous that he must resign immediately?

I don’t think so.

And yes, Kennedy, due to his personal and family life (i.e. the William Kennedy Smith rape case and the shameful and horrible way the victim was treated in the press, and I would not believe that Ted himself had never harassed a woman if Jesus Christ descended from heaven and swore it to me while hooked up to a lie detector), was not the fierce advocate he should have been during the Anita Hill/Clarence Thomas hearings. I get that, I really do. But do you think the random putz who would have taken his place had he resigned would have been?

Would losing all the liberal legislation Kennedy advocated for over his career been worth finding that out?

Why does Kennedy get forgiveness, nay, acclaim for his career, and Weiner should cut his short? Why can’t the Democratic leadership stop its pearl-clutching long enough to think about realpolitik for a moment?

So, yes, Weiner is a sexually-harassing asshole.  But does anybody believe for one minute that whoever takes his place will not be an asshole of some stripe?  US politics attracts egomaniacal assholes.  It’s not a question of choosing a good guy or an asshole.  It’s a question of choosing among assholes, and choosing one who will advocate for the political agenda that will do the most to alleviate human suffering. 

Anyway, if Thomas, Vitter, and Lukens all resign, I will consider asking Weiner to do the same.

I realize that for a first comment on the website, this is quite long; I apologize for that.

Comment #24: EG01  on  06/13  at  12:10 PM

WEINER WAS NOT BEHAVING SEXUALLY IN PRIVATE.  THAT INVOLVES CONSENT.  CONSENT DID NOT HAPPEN IN AT LEAST ONE CASE.  What is so hard to understand about this?  No, we have no reason to give a shit if he sends a thousand pictures a day of his junk to consenting partners, but ONE OF THEM WAS NOT CONSENTING.  Consent changes EVERYTHING.  I should not have to be explaining this on a feminist blog to self-identified feminists (from everything that I remember; I haven’t commented here much in a while).

Fuck!  All I’m asking is that my politicians don’t outright sexually harass women!  And I’m a super-insane purist feminist.  Of course.  Women can be fucktoys as long as they’re fucktoys for men who say nice things.  Because that’s feminism!  Real feminism!

A pox on the fucking movement, if that’s what it’s down to.  I swear.  I am so sick of fucking tribalism, and I expected better here, and maybe I was wrong.

Comment #25: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  12:12 PM

“Also, if you’re seriously saying, “if indeed harassment was involved,” the woman said outright that she did not solicit pictures, and in any other case sending random pictures of your dick to people who didn’t express interest constitutes fucking harassment, and so you’re basically intimating that she might be a liar.”

Believe it or not, I don’t actually live in Weinerville 24/7.  I made the statement “if indeed harassment was involved” because I truly don’t know if that has actually been established.  Pardon me for not piling on based on a rumor I saw on the internet…

***

BTW, I was someone who never particularly liked Bill Clinton, but I easily understood that he was better, flaws and all, than more years of Reagan/Bush.  The unbelievable circus that sprouted up to ruin Clinton, partisan to its very core, is a black mark that will stay with this country forever.

He got his dick sucked.  Get over it.

While that sanctimonious ass Gingrich was acting like Clinton had given the keys to the American nuclear arsenal to the terrorists, he was getting his dick sucked too.  While cheating on his wife.  And several other Reichwing sanctimonious asses were also cheating at the exact same time.

And what was worse is seeing assholes like Holy Joe Lieberman pile on the first chance they got.

The Lewinsky/Impeachment debacle is certainly one of the reasons that Bush Jr. and Darth Cheney have not been and will never be held accountable for their (literally) murderous behavior.

Look, all we can do is elect the politicians we have, not the politicians we wish we had.  We needed (and still need) another Franklin Roosevelt (who, BTW, was no innocent school boy either) but we got Barack Obama.  He may not be anything close to being the progressive liberal with big brass balls we need, but at least he’s better than McCain and Snowbilly Snookie.  Any day of the week.  Hands down.  No questions asked.

I wish we had a parliamentary system where there is at least the possibility of having more than two viable political parties.  But I also wish the 3/5th’s Compromise was embedded into the text of the Constitution.  I’m not going to get either of those things.

If Weiner harassed, BBQ his ass.  If he just sent naughty pictures, scold him.  In any case, we need to quickly turn back to dealing with the really bad problems this country faces, which will not go away no matter how many scandals somebody can stir up…

Comment #26: MikeEss  on  06/13  at  12:13 PM

I call Pelosi—and the other Dems folding like a card table—Democratic Surrender Monkeys, and those Democratic voters who’ve bought the tsk! tsk! propaganda Republican Opos Enablers.

Which sums it all up nicely in two handy-to-use phrases for the next dozen Democratic politicians whose heads the Republicans will go for, either by hoax or by going through their garbage.

Hope none of the Democratic enablers were too fond of Medicare.

Comment #27: judybrowni  on  06/13  at  12:24 PM

“But I also wish the 3/5th’s Compromise was NOT embedded into the text of the Constitution.”

Sorry ‘bout that…

Comment #28: MikeEss  on  06/13  at  12:25 PM

“He got his dick sucked.  Get over it.”

Here’s something you may not have thought of, regarding Clinton’s blowjob.  In the ensuing years, if a top level firm received a resume from a young man saying that he had been a White House intern during Clinton’s presidency it would be a plus for that young man.  If a young woman’s resume said that she was a White House intern under Clinton, it would likely be a joke between the people reviewing her application, it would delegitimize her as a candidate, and it would devalue the worth of the work that she had done as an intern. 

It is already challenging for women to get recognition for the work that they do.  Men who use their position of power to solicit sex are hurting other women in the same situation, and if they otherwise think of themselves as allies they could maybe think about that a little bit harder too, and act accordingly.

Comment #29: Eileen  on  06/13  at  12:26 PM

@INTPagan: This is the first I hear about any of it being non-consensual so that definitly makes my opinion on this rotate 180 degrees. OTOH I have to sort of mildly agree with Amanda in that the narrative has been hijacked by people who don’t give a flying fuck about consent issues, so it’s a potential minefield to walk in and join in the criticism as if you don’t control the slant of it well enough you risk giving ammo to the wrong people (and by that I don’t mean ‘those who aren’t in agreement with me politically and vote for a different party’, I mean people who are anti-women and who seek to restrict their sexuality).

As for people wondering if it is a frequent way of introduction to send crotch shots for males, I will say that my experience as a bi male on kink sites has also consisted of way too many introductions starting with male crotch shot. If it doesn’t interest me as a man I fail to see why people think it would work on women in general. I assume there is a small contingent who appreciates such things, but I would think even those who are only interested in a one night stand would rather see the complete package and not just, well, THAT package… Even when I intend to have prolonged close exposure of my face to a crotch and little exposure to the rest of the person afterwards, its appearance tends to rank a bit lower down on the list of things I’m looking for in a partner. I can count on one hand the number of woman partners who ruled me out based on penis size (usually rejection hangs around fantasies not matching well enough, my body type or lack of muscle definition, my general geeky look not being what they’re looking for, mostly in that order… even my body hair ranks higher than penis size or appearance). But I have numerous partners who said they put me above the rest of the pack because I was considerate enough not to send a package pic on the first email. Which is sad in a way. It means it’s frequent enough that you get points for not being a complete ass.

Comment #30: BlackBloc  on  06/13  at  12:27 PM

WEINER WAS NOT BEHAVING SEXUALLY IN PRIVATE. THAT INVOLVES CONSENT.

Non-consensual sex and sexual harrassment become public matters because they’re crimes under the law, even if they’re contained in private communications or occur behind closed doors. Even if (as often happens in cases of domestic violence) the victim doesn’t want to or doesn’t know enough to press charges.

The instance you mention (sending unsolicited shots of his junk) falls into a grey area: sending one such unwelcome pic can be a clueless and creepy mistake; continuing to send similar pics after she objected (even privately) would indeed be harassment. Is that the case?

All this is a separate issue from the public issue of Weiner’s legislative record vs his private attitude toward women.

Comment #31: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  12:28 PM

So the word “consent!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!” is the new “He lied!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!”

Either way, still enabling the Republican propaganda machine, which I’m beginning to think, is actually the point of some of the posters on this thread.

Comment #32: judybrowni  on  06/13  at  12:31 PM

Amanda’s got the gender politics right (she usually does), but Pagan’s got the merits right. The piece that changed my mind about this scandal was Kirsten Powers’ in the Daily Beast. Weiner was clearly pushing these interactions towards sex talk. Sometimes it was welcome, sometimes it was not. Plus, the guy has some pretty sick fantasies (in one Facebook conversation, he was telling a woman how he wanted her to choke during fallatio).

It’s definitely true that he is being taken down in the name of prudery, and that is troubling. But the solution to that is for more people on the left to talk about a more feminist critique of his actions, not to defend the guy.

Comment #33: Dilan Esper  on  06/13  at  12:33 PM

If I was having a perfectly normal discussion about politics with a dude whom I respected and then he suddenly steered the conversation to sex and then, after I tried repeatedly to steer it back, he showed me his junk, that would be sexual harassment.

Online it’s just boyish antics because he says nice things otherwise.

Oh, okay.  Yes, please, rationalize.

I second Eileen and I note how easy it is for so many people on this comment thread to throw women under the bus when it’s convenient because consent doesn’t matter if it’s someone who would do good things otherwise.  I’d also note that there’s a slideshow of the women with whom Weiner has had communications on some news site or other.  Yeah, totally private, affecting no one else, and harming no one.  Boyish antics!

Comment #34: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  12:33 PM

I’ve been in the position of trying to have an issues-based conversation with a person I had previously respected, but who kept steering the conversation to his junk.  It wasn’t a politician, but it was really disappointing.  It made me rethink my opinion of that person, and it made me question again whether it might not be a better idea for me to have a male online identity.  Why should I have to do that? 

Weiner’s behavior may be in a grey-area for harassment, but I have to admit that it’s really disappointing to think that he may have done this.  Democrats nowadays are establishing a track record of treating issues primarily of importance to women as sideline issues, and I believe that part of that is wrapped up in too many men in power still thinking of women as the other.

Comment #35: Eileen  on  06/13  at  12:36 PM

Meh.  I read the Powers piece, and what I took away from it was that she was annoyed that Weiner had lied to her.  Well, it’s always upsetting when a good friend lies to you, but I’m not exactly moved by her plight, either.

Plus, the guy has some pretty sick fantasies (in one Facebook conversation, he was telling a woman how he wanted her to choke during fallatio).

Seriously?  The guy has fantasies that are yucky and that’s cause to oust him?  So what?  Lots of people have nasty, icky fantasies.  I don’t see how that has any bearing on, well, anything.

Comment #36: EG01  on  06/13  at  12:38 PM

Judy, if you seriously think that I come on here talking about how consent matters in order to enable Republicans then you’ve lost it.  (After all, Dominique Strauss-Khan was an important left-wing figure in France and posed a legitimate threat to Sarkozy, so what’s one little private scuffle with a maid?  Consent is just a red herring!  He could do so much more for France!)

I believe in women’s right to access public spaces, both online and in real life, without being bombarded with harassment.  That’s a basic thing, and I don’t think it should be up for debate in any even half-assed feminist community.  Perhaps you should consider why you’re willing to throw this right under the bus in order to enable a man who sexually harasses women, and to justify that behaviour.  Go ahead and search my screen name and look at the arguments I’ve made in other threads, if years ago.  I’m a progressive and have been for years.  I just happen to take all of it seriously, not just the parts that are convenient, which is more than I can say for you.

Comment #37: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  12:38 PM

Yes, Dilan.  Amanda has the gender politics right, as she usually does, but the solution that is posited right now by most of the left blogosphere - that of pretending that Weiner did absolutely nothing wrong - just serves to erase the women from the entire situation, and we can’t accuse others of doing that and then do it ourselves because it’s convenient this time.

Also, Judy, yes, Shakesville is such a fucking hub of conservatism.  Those fascists!

Comment #38: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  12:41 PM

Look, I agree that on one side this gets all messed up by prudery. 

On the other side though, this is already getting messed up by arguments saying I’d better be willing to accept shit sandwiches from my betters if I want to keep social programs.  I’m not saying Weiner needs to resign immediately, but is it really so objectionable to talk out loud about expecting better?

I’m far to the left of democrats, by the way, which is part of the problem here.  Democrats are not necessarily progressive, and many of the commenters on this thread are demonstrating that.

Comment #39: Eileen  on  06/13  at  12:48 PM

If I was having a perfectly normal discussion about politics with a dude whom I respected and then he suddenly steered the conversation to sex and then, after I tried repeatedly to steer it back, he showed me his junk, that would be sexual harassment.

Is there an interview or IM transcript describing this sequence of events in the case of Weiner and the woman you mention? Outside of a professional setting, there’s an important difference between trying to steer the conversation back to the issues and saying definitively “I don’t want to talk about sex with you.” If she did the latter, and he sprung his crotch shot on her, then it is harassment.

Also, Judy, yes, Shakesville is such a fucking hub of conservatism.  Those fascists!

“Authoritarians” would be the better word. I’ve always considered Comrade McEwan more of a Stalinist in her approach to on-line community.

Comment #40: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  12:54 PM

I agree with Amanda.
As scandals go, this is not that serious.

Comment #41: chicating  on  06/13  at  12:56 PM

I agree with Amanda that the pearl-clutching is a bad road to go down.  I’m still not sure why it means that we can’t discuss this reasonably at all.

Comment #42: Eileen  on  06/13  at  01:04 PM

I certainly tend toward the view that the Dems should handle this however the politics are better for them. Which I don’t think is doing the Republican’s work for them and calling for Weiner to step down. If they want him out, Pelosi should do it privately, not publically, while telling the Republicans to go shove it in public. The Republicans seem to understand that politics in our system is a zero sum game, so whatever one of the major political parties does becomes by its very nature, acceptable.

And I don’t believe that reps need to be good people, they just need to reliably vote the left way and Weiner has, right? And likely will continue to do so? I guess I don’t believe that politicians are anything but a means to end. I only have one rule for politician-picking. Most liberal who I think can win.

If Weiner is in fact an asshole who sexually harasses women online (which I don’t think fits the legal definition, or so I’ve read), well, won’t he still vote correctly? And, hopefully, cut it out?

Comment #43: witless chum  on  06/13  at  01:04 PM

Gracchus, if you try to talk about sex with a woman and she repeatedly steers the conversation back to the original topic then you, in any normal situation, would consider it creepy to force it back, and that’s what’s happened.  However, since he wasn’t operating in a professional capacity as a Congressman at the time (even though he was friended because of that office) it doesn’t matter unless they said outright that they did not want to talk about sex.  Makes perfect sense.

Also, Cordoba has made it crystal clear that the picture was completely out of the blue.  How is that not harassment?  Do you assume that every woman you meet wants to see your junk until you have a statement to the negative?  Does your assumption (which is, hopefully, negative) change the second you get online?

I don’t give a shit what you think about Shakesville; my point is that Judy is trying to call me out for being a Republican operative, and one of the places from whence I got my information is Shakesville, which is not known for being a site for conservative agitators.

Comment #44: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  01:05 PM

Do not feed Vincent The Troll.

Comment #45: Punditus Maximus  on  06/13  at  01:05 PM

I’m not saying Weiner needs to resign immediately, but is it really so objectionable to talk out loud about expecting better?...I’m far to the left of democrats, by the way, which is part of the problem here.  Democrats are not necessarily progressive…

I’m on board with both these statements.  I agree that Weiner should be taken to task by feminists, just not that he should resign.  And, being far to the left of Democrats is one of the things that leads me not to expect very much from them, which is why I’m never surprised and rarely disappointed by actions such as Weiner’s.  I just don’t expect any better.

Comment #46: EG01  on  06/13  at  01:07 PM

#44:

I disagree with the notion that a woman has to tell Weiner not to talk about sex before it becomes inappropriate for him to send pictures of his crotch or genitals.

This man was a married congressman. If a female contacts him on twitter, I think the assumption should be that this woman wants to talk about politics or contact him about a problem with the government or just wants to say how much she admires his politics. It is highly inappropriate to steer these interactions towards sex.

A woman following a member of Congress on twitter or facebook is simply not the equivalent of Monica showing Bill her thong. This man has a real problem with boundaries and appropriate interactions with females who contact a congressman.

Comment #47: Dilan Esper  on  06/13  at  01:09 PM

Vincent the idiot, you mean.

Comment #48: helen w. h.  on  06/13  at  01:09 PM

Yes.  Ladies on the thread, educate Vincent so that he can fantasize learn about the habits of women.  He is totally on the up-and-up.

Comment #49: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  01:17 PM

@INTPagan: nobody is calling you a Republican operative.  You are, however, enabling them.  Your motives for this may be pure as the driven snow, but I sincerely doubt that the best use of your time is to enable GOP narratives for a guy who has admitted that he screwed up and is seeking treatment for the personal failures.

Comment #50: Punditus Maximus  on  06/13  at  01:22 PM

The fact that he sexually harassed women is not the GOP narrative, Punditus.  They’re saying that he’s a dirty, dirty adulterer who should wear a chastity belt.  I’m talking about an actual narrative about something that he actually did wrong and that the left is actually ignoring, including on this blog, while pretending as if the only possible controversy to be drawn from this is that he did something unauthorized with his junk.  It’s not.  I’m sick of seeing this posited as a purely private issue while women who didn’t solicit shit from him are having their pictures available for everyone to see.  This is not a private matter at all, not for the woman (or women) whom he harassed.  If the GOP was speaking the truth then I wouldn’t care if I was enabling them either, because I don’t give a shit about narratives so much as I give a shit about truth, and the truth is that he was harassing women, and that should be shouted from the mountaintops about him and about everyone else who does it.

Also, judybrowni totally called me a Republican operative.

Comment #51: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  01:26 PM

I think we can use this thing called nuance and realize that Weiner did something unethical, and yet it is also true that the mainstream media would have been on his case even if it had all been perfectly consensual and his wife was polyamorous and pushed him into it because she gets a kick out of her husband interacting online with young women (as long as we’re imagining a best case scenario for the Democrats here).

Comment #52: BlackBloc  on  06/13  at  01:32 PM

Suspicions confirmed: Vincent = Tyler.  Resorts to meanie-talk at the first direct pointing out of his inadequacy.

Comment #53: bomberE  on  06/13  at  01:33 PM

Blackbloc, that was exactly what I thought had happened at first, and I was really surprised and disappointed to see that it was otherwise.  I think it’s shit that people can’t have open relationships and open marriages and be public about it because of the Morality Police getting all up on them. 

I’m not even necessarily calling for his resignation.  All I’ve said so far is that it should be discussed and I’ve had my head jumped all over because it is Not Politically Expedient.  I mean, for the people doing that, do you realize how fucked that is?

Comment #54: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  01:35 PM

What the hell is happening on this thread, why is almost everyone eliding that consent is an important issue? Pointing that out isn’t enabling GOP narratives.

I sort of get where Amanda’s coming from in that she’s engaging with the story that’s being told, not with whatever the actual facts of the situation were, and it’s hard to fight on two fronts at once.

But why is INTPagan being dogpiled for pointing out in the comments that it’s more complicated than that?

Also, there’s a sort of hilarious irony that a troll is using this thread to ask strange women on the internet about their masturbation habits.

Comment #55: daisyparker  on  06/13  at  01:37 PM

I’m with you, INTPagan. Would it be too much to ask someone Democratic leadership to make a broad, public statement about how this is about CONSENT, not sexual mores? Apparently, yes. I am disappoint.

Comment #56: SweetT  on  06/13  at  01:41 PM

#64 and #66
Me too.

Comment #57: Eileen  on  06/13  at  01:43 PM

Gracchus, if you try to talk about sex with a woman and she repeatedly steers the conversation back to the original topic then you, in any normal situation, would consider it creepy to force it back, and that’s what’s happened.  However, since he wasn’t operating in a professional capacity as a Congressman at the time (even though he was friended because of that office) it doesn’t matter unless they said outright that they did not want to talk about sex.  Makes perfect sense.

It does. In a professional situation, there’s a power differential at work. In this case, if there’s any power differential, he as a public servant works for her. But let’s go with the obvious: it’s a private conversation with a public figure.

In that context, if “Anthony” is continually steering the conversation toward sex instead of the issues, “Betty” has the choice make a definitive statement and/or leave the conversation. This is especially true of an on-line conversation.

If Anthony escalates by being the virtual equivalent of a flasher in spite of a definitive statement, then I agree that it is harassment.

Also, Cordoba has made it crystal clear that the picture was completely out of the blue.  How is that not harassment?  Do you assume that every woman you meet wants to see your junk until you have a statement to the negative?

I don’t make that assumption and, pathetically, even get points for not being that clueless from women I talk to on-line (similar to BlackBloc’s experience). However, they don’t call it harassment, even in a general sense. The guys who do that are just idiots or creeps in their view.

It’s sad that that’s the nature and etiquette of on-line chat, but it is what it is. People do or say things on-line that they’d never do or say in person, because there’s a buffer and a degree of anonymity built in. Consequently, yes, the medium (other circumstances being equal) affects the degree of outrage.

If a guy gets caught flashing a woman on the L train, she’s definitely gonna go after him. The same woman might receive a photo of the same dick unsolicited from the same moron as a response to her inocuous W4M Craigslist ad, and she might just as easily brush it off as just another idiot.

Expanding on that, if the same guy continues to send her more dick shots, then it does become harrassment, even though she’s online.

I’m now hearing two versions of the incident from you: in the first, Weiner keeps trying to steer the conversation to sex, the woman (Cordoba) keeps trying to steer it back to issues-based in a non-definitive way, and then Weiner springs the crotch shot on her (going far beyond vague “steering”); in the second, they’re having the issues-based conversation and—boom!—“here’s a pic of my wang.” This is why I’m asking for a transcript or interview.

one of the places from whence I got my information is Shakesville, which is not known for being a site for conservative agitators.

Although it is known as being a comfortable site for a particular type of progressive prude. While I’ll agree that it isn’t a site for conservative agitators, they are fond of their purges, tests of ideological purity, and the circular firing squads that inevitably result.

I disagree with the notion that a woman has to tell Weiner not to talk about sex before it becomes inappropriate for him to send pictures of his crotch or genitals.

Some of the women who contacted him on Twitter were very open to the idea of sexual conversation, even knowing he was married. I’m not saying his subsequent assumption that every female who contacted him might be interested in such talk was a wise one, but as you say the man has serious issues with self-control.

It is highly inappropriate to steer these interactions towards sex.

Agreed. That’s not necessarily harassment, though—the sort of harassment that rightly turns a private conversation into a public matter. I agree completely with your statement that “this man has a real problem with boundaries and appropriate interactions with females,” but that isn’t a basis for his resignation.

Comment #58: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  01:48 PM

The narrative is out of our control (not that it ever even was in our control, but let’s pretend).  It DOES need to be talked about from the consent angle, but there’s no way to do that on a national level b/c the media will report any criticism of Weiner from their angle of choice, which is the prudery.  I’m very disappointed and have had to rescind my defense of Weiner (I too had been hoping it was consensual non-monogamy of some sort).  I almost think the thing to do is try to contact Weiner directly.  A lot of his public life has been spent advocating for women.  If he can get his ego out of the way, I’m sure he’s smart enough to see the hypocrisy.

Comment #59: bomberE  on  06/13  at  01:49 PM

In that context, if “Anthony” is continually steering the conversation toward sex instead of the issues, “Betty” has the choice make a definitive statement and/or leave the conversation. This is especially true of an on-line conversation.

Congratulations.  You have just created a world in which it is possible for “James” (“Betty”‘s brother, let’s say) to have substantive interaction with elected officials and be actively engaged in political discourse, but “Betty” is barred from that discourse because “Anthony” thinks she’s hot and won’t let it go.  That sounds good to you?  Because, as a “Betty”, it smells like a shit sandwich to me.

 

Comment #60: Eileen  on  06/13  at  01:52 PM

Really, though, who WOULD know better than Larry David how often women masturbate?

Comment #61: dopus dei  on  06/13  at  01:53 PM

Tyler, take it from someone whose wit and intellect are far from the best here: you’re terrible at this.  Even I can see that.  It’s not worth it to try to insult you creatively.  One poke and you disintegrate.

Comment #62: bomberE  on  06/13  at  01:54 PM

Gracchus, the fact that you’re ignoring everything that has been established prior to this in pretty much every discussion ever about the socialization of women is amazing.  Women are not as likely to feel comfortable outright turning down sexual advances because they will feel like A Bitch, and double goes when it’s a powerful public figure.  So no, if you continue pushing it after they have tried to steer it back then you are a creep, full stop.  If we’re going to have enthusiastic consent as a model for sexual interaction then we can’t say, “Well, she didn’t say ‘No’ clearly enough.  She should have said it harder, or it’s her fault.”  And that’s what you’re saying, and that is fucking creepy, for the record, and I’m kind of surprised to see you arguing that.

He interacted with different women.  He sent Cordoba the picture out of nowhere.  He continually steered the conversations with Megan Broussard to sex when she tried to steer them back.  Am I the only person here with Google?

Comment #63: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  01:55 PM

Outside of a professional setting, there’s an important difference between trying to steer the conversation back to the issues and saying definitively “I don’t want to talk about sex with you.” If she did the latter, and he sprung his crotch shot on her, then it is harassment.

How is this different from “there’s an important difference between trying to steer the date to somewhere private and put your sweater on, and saying definitively ‘I don’t want to have sex with you.’ IF SHE DID THE LATTER, and he still fucked her, then it was rape”?

I mean really, suddenly the feminist position is that a woman’s consent switch is always in the “on” position unless she specifies that it’s “off”? When the hell did that happen?

The fact that he sexually harassed women is not the GOP narrative, Punditus.  They’re saying that he’s a dirty, dirty adulterer who should wear a chastity belt.

Yes, exactly. The pearl-clutching attitude is that he’s a dirty dirty man who does that dirty dirty sex thing with dirty dirty sluts. It’s not pearl-clutching to point out that he sexually harassed nonconsenting women for godsake! It’s not “enabling Republicans” to, be, y’know, not hypocrites about consent. What the hell is going on that anyone could even argue that?

Comment #64: kristin  on  06/13  at  01:57 PM

Congratulations.  You have just created a world in which it is possible for “James” (“Betty”‘s brother, let’s say) to have substantive interaction with elected officials and be actively engaged in political discourse, but “Betty” is barred from that discourse because “Anthony” thinks she’s hot and won’t let it go.

 

Not so, if “Anthony” is gay and thinks “James” is hawt. More likely with a GOP politician, but still…

Comment #65: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  01:59 PM

Would it be too much to ask someone Democratic leadership to make a broad, public statement about how this is about CONSENT, not sexual mores?

Even if they did do that, it would be twisted, or misinterpreted, or ignored.  It would be nice if they at least tried.  I don’t see them doing that, though.

Comment #66: bomberE  on  06/13  at  02:01 PM

And Gracchus pulls out the “IT HAPPENS TO MEN TOO” argument.  I’ve seen it all on here now.

Is it Backwards Day?  Am I in the Twilight Zone?  IOIYAD?  Or a progressive in general?  When did Pandagon become inhabited by brogressives?  The fuck?

Comment #67: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  02:03 PM

Hey, it’s Tyler! Can’t stay away, can you, buddy? At least you still have good taste.

Comment #68: junk science  on  06/13  at  02:04 PM

Gracchus, do you believe that you just addressed my point adequately?  You didn’t.

Comment #69: Eileen  on  06/13  at  02:05 PM

As for people wondering if it is a frequent way of introduction to send crotch shots for males, I will say that my experience as a bi male on kink sites has also consisted of way too many introductions starting with male crotch shot. If it doesn’t interest me as a man I fail to see why people think it would work on women in general.
Comment #34: BlackBloc on 06/13 at 12:27 PM

It doesn’t work to get dates.  It works if you like showing off your junk and imagining the response (or even reading/hearing it).

Like street harassment, it is its own reward.

Comment #70: oldfeminist  on  06/13  at  02:14 PM

Step 1: draw troll’s attention
Step 2: troll stops with the creepy bad faith arguments in favor of insulting you
Step 3: laugh
Step 4: ???????
Step 5: PROFIT

Comment #71: bomberE  on  06/13  at  02:15 PM

Agreed. That’s not necessarily harassment, though—the sort of harassment that rightly turns a private conversation into a public matter.

I agree it isn’t harassment. I’m a lawyer and I am careful don’t use the word “harassment” to refer to every single inappropriate sexual comment. Harassment is severe or pervasive sexually-themed or discriminatory expression that has the effect of making it more difficult for a woman to do her job or exercise her rights on account of her gender.

Where I get off the bus is in assuming that since it doesn’t rise to the level of actual sexual harassment, this is just a matter of consenting adults and there’s no way there could possibly be a scandal here. There is quite a distance between appropriate interactions with constituents and twitter followers and sexual harassment; this conduct, from everything I heard, appears to be quite inappropriate.

Comment #72: Dilan Esper  on  06/13  at  02:15 PM

Women are not as likely to feel comfortable outright turning down sexual advances because they will feel like A Bitch, and double goes when it’s a powerful public figure.

The women I’ve met on-line had no problem with turning down the sexual advances of others they met online or even ignoring them outright. Most of the time that’s the end of it.

I mean really, suddenly the feminist position is that a woman’s consent switch is always in the “on” position unless she specifies that it’s “off”? When the hell did that happen?

No, the feminist position is that a woman’s consent switch can be either on or off, and that she has the ability to signal clearly its state at a given moment. It’s expected that a prospective seducer will read those signals and respond appropriately (which Weiner obviously didn’t in at least one case).

Sex-negative prudes (conservative or progressive) assume the switch is always off or always on for a given woman.

Comment #73: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  02:16 PM

The narrative is out of our control (not that it ever even was in our control, but let’s pretend).  It DOES need to be talked about from the consent angle, but there’s no way to do that on a national level b/c the media will report any criticism of Weiner from their angle of choice, which is the prudery.  I’m very disappointed and have had to rescind my defense of Weiner (I too had been hoping it was consensual non-monogamy of some sort).  I almost think the thing to do is try to contact Weiner directly.  A lot of his public life has been spent advocating for women.  If he can get his ego out of the way, I’m sure he’s smart enough to see the hypocrisy.

They often don’t. Bear in mind, for instance, that Bob Packwood had an excellent record on women’s rights in Congress (especially considering he was a Republican). Supported abortion rights, family planning, family and medical leave, strengthening civil rights laws, etc.

Yet he turned out to be a serial sexual harasser (and in his case, I mean the legal sense—this was much more severe than what Weiner was doing).

And in contrast I am sure there are some people in Congress whose politics we would find completely odious who nonetheless are exemplary in their treatment of female subordinates and other women they come into contact with as a result of their jobs.

There just doesn’t seem to be much of a connection between the public positions politicians take and their private conduct. This is simply the converse of all the conservatives who get into sex scandals.

Comment #74: Dilan Esper  on  06/13  at  02:20 PM

Do women and men have equal sex drives?  Women don’t masturbate as much as men, right?  Wasn’t that established on the classic “Master of Your Domain” episode of Seinfeld?

Dr. Ruth Westheimer
Dr. Alfred Kinsey
Dr. William Masters
Dr. Virginia Johnson
Cosmo Kramer

Yeah, they’re all pretty much the same person.

Comment #75: DTGslu2K  on  06/13  at  02:22 PM

Gracchus, if you think that only sex-negative prudes want to make sure that all of the sex that they have is fully consenting then I honestly don’t know what the fuck your problem is.  Clear communication is a lot sexier than a situation in which you are unsure.  Also, your one anecdotal bit about the women you’ve known online doesn’t really reflect in the majority of experiences, where women are socialized to cater to men’s desires.

Comment #76: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  02:23 PM

a woman’s consent switch can be either on or off, and that she has the ability to signal clearly its state at a given moment.

How is this not blaming the victim? Yes OBVIOUSLY Weiner didn’t read her signals correctly. Or maybe, just maybe it was that he didn’t care what she was signaling.

She didn’t signal clearly enough. She didn’t yell loudly enough. She didn’t struggle enough. Give me a break.

Comment #77: kristin  on  06/13  at  02:24 PM

If a young woman’s resume said that she was a White House intern under Clinton, it would likely be a joke between the people reviewing her application, it would delegitimize her as a candidate, and it would devalue the worth of the work that she had done as an intern.

But would that be Clinton and Lewinsky’s fault or would it be the fault of those potential employers?

Comment #78: typist  on  06/13  at  02:25 PM

Agreeing entirely with INTPagan @  55 and daisyparker’s para 4 @64 re the troll. 
Otherwise, I’m with SweetT @66.
As scandles go, this is a small one; which doesn’t mean it isn’t one.  What should make it one is the stupidity and lack of consent, not that there were sexual/sexualized pitures that involved a man and the prudery surrounding that possibility.

Comment #79: helen w. h.  on  06/13  at  02:26 PM

typist @ 91 - all of the above, though mostly 1 and 3.

Comment #80: helen w. h.  on  06/13  at  02:31 PM

And Gracchus pulls out the “IT HAPPENS TO MEN TOO” argument.  I’ve seen it all on here now.

Just pointing out Eileen’s privileged hetero-centric viewpoint. Unpure, unpure!

Gracchus, do you believe that you just addressed my point adequately?  You didn’t.

I did, because the world you describe, one apparently populated by strawmen, is the one you just created, not I.

When I’m having an issues-based business conversation and someone keeps trying to steer it toward irrelevant nonsense, I know this isn’t a serious business conversation and I leave it or, if I’m so inclined to engage in the irrelevant nonsense, switch to that track understanding that issues-based is not the talk I’m gonna have with this person.

Men and women, both straight and gay, have this choice. If you don’t want to do business with a politician after this sort of conversation, you vote against or campaign against him. Or expose him for the dick-driven fool he is. Whatever the choice, there’s no disenfranchisement involved.

Comment #81: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  02:31 PM

Yes, Gracchus, and if women are actively discouraged from taking place in public life by the fact that even progressives like you are totally okay with their being harassed then, well, it happens to gay men, too, so it’s their silly faults.  They’re just being oversensitive.

Comment #82: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  02:39 PM

Have all these people said that women have equal sex drives to men?  Well fuckin A, that’s why I come here!  That’s what she, or he, said.

Yes, as you know, Dr. Ruth Westheimer’s personal assistant works here. We’ll have the office get on your question right away.

Comment #83: junk science  on  06/13  at  02:44 PM

Please no feeding!

Comment #84: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/13  at  02:46 PM

Please no feeding!

Comment #85: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/13  at  02:46 PM

That was addressed to the problem child I just deleted, not to this conversation.

Comment #86: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/13  at  02:46 PM

That was addressed to the problem child I just deleted, not to this conversation.

Comment #87: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/13  at  02:46 PM

Gracchus, if you think that only sex-negative prudes want to make sure that all of the sex that they have is fully consenting then I honestly don’t know what the fuck your problem is.

No, what I said is that sex-negative prudes think the switch is always (bolded that for you) in one position for any given woman. I assume any given woman might be on or off at different times. If I’m attracted to a woman, I might test it by trying to steer the conversation in a sexual direction. Though obviously not by doing so in the middle of a business meeting or by whipping out my penis right away.

How is this not blaming the victim? Yes OBVIOUSLY Weiner didn’t read her signals correctly. Or maybe, just maybe it was that he didn’t care what she was signaling.

Either way, he failed expectations. She also apparently failed to read or react to his signals—the ones that said quite clearly “Why talk about politics when we can talk about my dick?” Was his Congressional mojo so strong that it kept her in the chat, entranced until he went too far and showed her his dick?

I really don’t know, because I haven’t seen a transcript or an interview.

Comment #88: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  02:47 PM

Is the issue really that Weiner sent lewd pictures to women or that he was going behind his wifes back and doing so on top of sexually harrassing women? It seems a bit odd that I havent heard anything denouncing his behavior by feminists whom I’m sure if it was a Repub his same behaviors would be examined in more depth.

Comment #89: Bean Slap  on  06/13  at  02:48 PM

Straw men?  I have had this happen to me online, but not in a political context.  Replace “Betty” with “Eileen” if it makes you happy.  It’s dismaying to realize that you have unequal access to certain areas of public discourse because it pleases some men more to steer the conversation around to their dicks, and don’t think it’s worthwhile to talk to me if I’m not willing to go there with them.  Because of my girl parts.

The conversation I wanted to have?  The person who did this to me was perfectly willing to have that conversation… with dudes. 

When women talk about their experience of marginalization, you’d probably do better to listen a bit.

Comment #90: Eileen  on  06/13  at  02:48 PM

Can we agree that sending pictures of your genitals to people who have not expressed any interest in seeing them is contemptible AND that the outraged response of congresscritters is at best convenient and probably also dangerous prudery?

Agreed. I think the harassment angle just concerns me since I haven’t seen anyone really complain about it.  I’m somewhat in the area between not wanting to deprive women the right to define their own experiences and the problem of some women don’t have the tools to complain.

Comment #91: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/13  at  02:50 PM

Can we agree that sending pictures of your genitals to people who have not expressed any interest in seeing them is contemptible AND that the outraged response of congresscritters is at best convenient and probably also dangerous prudery?

Agreed. I think the harassment angle just concerns me since I haven’t seen anyone really complain about it.  I’m somewhat in the area between not wanting to deprive women the right to define their own experiences and the problem of some women don’t have the tools to complain.

Comment #92: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/13  at  02:50 PM

Can we agree that sending pictures of your genitals to people who have not expressed any interest in seeing them is contemptible AND that the outraged response of congresscritters is at best convenient and probably also dangerous prudery?

Agreed. I think the harassment angle just concerns me since I haven’t seen anyone really complain about it.  I’m somewhat in the area between not wanting to deprive women the right to define their own experiences and the problem of some women don’t have the tools to complain.

Comment #93: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/13  at  02:50 PM

typist @ 91 - all of the above, though mostly 1 and 3.

I think it would be a descending hierarchy of 3, 1, 2, but 3 far, far ahead of 1. And I realized it was a trick question because the parties overwhelmingly responsible for this were Ken Starr and the Republican Party. Bill Clinton never intended his affair to be public consumption.

Comment #94: typist  on  06/13  at  02:52 PM

Gracchus, again, if you’re not willing to obtain consent before barging into a sexual encounter then I don’t know what to do to help you.  If you steer the conversation towards sex in order to figure out whether she consents then that’s one thing, but you pretty much said that anything goes because you have no way of knowing, so why not barge through.  You posited women as the ones who should police horny men and let them know where their switch is since the poor dears can’t be bothered to check where the consent switch is at.

Your second paragraph is blatant victim-blaming - she failed to read his signals when she politely tried to steer the conversation elsewhere.

I second Eileen.  You should probably listen to women when you’re going to talk about what normal experiences are for them.  Not every woman is steeped in feminism.  A lot of them, in fact, aren’t!  And a lot of them will actually feel uncomfortable confronting a man, even if the situation is very uncomfortable!  See, there’s this thing called a “rape culture,” but, being a regular commenter here, this shouldn’t be fucking news to you.  You shouldn’t need 101, and the fact that you’re acting like some wet-behind-the-ears rape apologist makes it pretty clear that your head is too far up Weiner’s ass for you to give a shit about something as stupid as feminism at the moment.

Comment #95: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  02:54 PM

#1 Agree. I posted my above comment without reading others but I agree. I brought this up on a recent post a few days ago when Amanda described Weiners behavior as a “non-issue.” After reading about what he did it seemed quite apparent what he was doing was sexually harrassing women. Partisan politics should take a back-seat to feminist principles. Its also gotta suck that apparently Weiners wife is pregnant. I dont know how they even figured that out. I dont always know if its ethical to release womens pregnancies early on to the media because what then if she has an abortion? People will now feel entitled to be in her uterus.

Comment #96: Bean Slap  on  06/13  at  02:58 PM

Which makes me wonder if anyone’s done an experiment where women respond to street harassers with setting up a date.  How many harassers would accept?  How many would show up?  What would they expect?

Kind of like “To Catch A Predator”—you could have someone interview the guy; or maybe have a “plant” at the date location strike up a conversation.

Comment #97: oldfeminist  on  06/13  at  03:05 PM

If anyone wants to know how there was an imbalance of power involved in what Weiner did, even though it wasn’t a professional setting and he didn’t have any job-related power over the woman involved?

It’s this. Right here.

The way he could sexually harass her with graphic pictures in the middle of a totally-not-about-sex conversation with her, and if she spoke up about it, even supposed progressives and feminists would stick their fingers in their ears and go LALALA because he’s Important, as opposed to her, who is Just A Dumb Slut. She wanted to talk to a political figure about politics instead of his hard dick? Well golly gosh with an expectation that unusual she really should have worn a sign on her forehead saying PLEASE DO NOT SHOW ME YOUR DICK. All her own fault, really. It’s not harassment at all. Just sexytime fun and games. Shut up about it and smile or you’re on the side of the Republicans.

That’s the power he had over her.

Comment #98: kristin  on  06/13  at  03:06 PM

#8 amanda,
The women said it wasnt consensual and that they just wanted to talk politics and he kept turning it into something else. For the 21 year old intern she was unconcensually sent lewd photos. She thought it came from someone else. Its sick when feminists and even somewhat well-known ones end up perpetuating denial of his mis-deeds just to be loyal to partisan politics rather than feminis principles. We shoul dbe helping the victims not making excuses for Weiner. Not to mention but I dont think his wife was very happy with his behavior.

Comment #99: Bean Slap  on  06/13  at  03:06 PM

How many harassers would accept?

I would imagine few to none. It would be so far outside of the accepted script that they would probably realize they were being punked. Either that, or they would decide the woman was a dirty slut they should have nothing to do with.

Comment #100: junk science  on  06/13  at  03:09 PM

cynickel,
The women he targeted said that all they wanted to do was talk politics but he kept turning it into something nasty and the 21 year old intern was randomly sent a lewd photo on him. She didnt suspect it was even him so she thought it came from someone else. Pieces of the transcipt have been shown and it was apparent that they were trying to talk politics and he kept turning it into something else.

Comment #101: Bean Slap  on  06/13  at  03:11 PM

Kristin, you are like eighty times better than me at putting things concisely, and I would hug you if this wasn’t an internet and if I was a hugging person at all.

Comment #102: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  03:13 PM

On the scale of sexual impropriety, a single unwanted tweet from a stranger is so low on the severity spectrum as to be almost inconsequential. It’s an egregious social faux pas bred of male privilege but it’s not harassment unless the tweeter is in a position of authority over the recipient, and/or the tweeter won’t take no for an answer.

Comment #103: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  06/13  at  03:13 PM

Initially the problem seemed to be sending dick pictures to someone consenting.

After time, the media dig up someone who didn’t consent.  I don’t mean “dig up” as in “make up.”  There’s little glory in being sexually harassed, lots of second-guessing and outright accusations of lying.

So we started by saying “consensual—who cares?” because that fit what we knew then.

Now it should be “non-consensual—that’s wrong.”

Because the media is one-note on most issues, trying to say “it seemed right then but it’s wrong now” is just as stupid as saying “I supported it then but I reject it now.”  TL;DR. 

The new evidence shows he’s a jerk.  Don’t accept what you wouldn’t accept from a Republican.

Comment #104: oldfeminist  on  06/13  at  03:15 PM

Bean Slap: no question IMO.  No one needs to know about someone else’s pregnancy, no matter how early or late in term it is at the time - not their business unless they actually know the person, and maybe not even then.  How his wife feels about it is none of your, or my, or anyone else’s business. 
Great with the ehtics on one hand (yes, any version of harrassment is bad) and piss poor on the other.  Why are you commenting on those things at all?

Comment #105: helen w. h.  on  06/13  at  03:16 PM

Lindsay, he’s in a position of power.  He’s a powerful politician, and these women admire him for his work.  They’re also socialized to please men.  These things aren’t irrelevant.  He’s not just some stranger on the internet; he’s Anthony Weiner, progressive god in his own right, and he’s coming onto them.  It’s not the same as if he did it physically, but the idea that dick pictures from a powerful person are just boyish hijinks unless the recipient bursts into tears about it is ridiculous.  We would be saying that this was harassment, and rightfully so, if it came from any Republican.  Why are we willing to accept less from someone who is supposed to actually value consent?

Comment #106: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  03:18 PM

#17 INTPagan,
Actually him cheating on his wife would affect his job because to me that says he doesnt mind treating women like shit and lying to the public. If he’ll cheat on the ones he loves then why would he be honest with us? Its obvious they dont have an open relationship so he breached her trust and all when shes pregnant no less.

Comment #107: Bean Slap  on  06/13  at  03:20 PM

I don’t view infidelity as having the same level of weight because it is a private relationship matter and we cannot know the intimate details of that relationship, or any.  It is none of our business unless there has been abuse.  A breach of trust is a different thing to me from nonconsensually harassing people.  I would point out that people have open marriages and we have no idea about whose is and isn’t because it’s so frowned upon publicly (and is also, again, none of our business).  The bottom line is that intimate relationships have a lot of convolutions in them and we can’t know what drives someone of either gender to cheat, what the boundaries are in the relationship, or how it emotionally affects their partner.  We have too little information, and it’s none of our business unless the offended partner comes forward.  The closest thing I can think of to abuse in a cheating situation is if one partner was careless and infected the other with a disease.

Comment #108: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  03:25 PM

On the scale of sexual impropriety, a single unwanted tweet from a stranger is so low on the severity spectrum as to be almost inconsequential. It’s an egregious social faux pas bred of male privilege but it’s not harassment unless the tweeter is in a position of authority over the recipient, and/or the tweeter won’t take no for an answer.

Again, I agree it is not sexual harassment, which has a very specific meaning.

But “almost inconsequential”? That seems way off. I hope this isn’t taken as mansplaining, but I’ve been hearing feminists complain for decades about men who sexualize normal interactions. To me, at least, the idea that some twenty-something woman who admires Weiner’s politics sends him a tweet or puts up a comment on his facebook page and he responds but starts repeatedly pushing the conversation towards sex and forcing her to uncomfortably, towards a man with a lot more power than she has, repeatedly attempt to shift it back, is something that feminists ought to be troubled by.

I don’t think the standard for whether something is consequential is whether it rises to the level of legally actionable sexual harassment. Sexual harassment law is necessarily limited to the most egregious examples of this sort of thing, and for good reason (it is quite true that we don’t want to chill people from being able to discuss sex at work or punish men for a single mistake or misread signal). But nonconsensual sexual interactions, even if they don’t rise to the level of harassment, are still worthy of discussion and condemnation.

Comment #109: Dilan Esper  on  06/13  at  03:26 PM

When I’m having an issues-based business conversation and someone keeps trying to steer it toward irrelevant nonsense, I know this isn’t a serious business conversation and I leave it or, if I’m so inclined to engage in the irrelevant nonsense, switch to that track understanding that issues-based is not the talk I’m gonna have with this person.

What a perfect way to scare women away from conversations about politics, which, after all, is nothing they should be worrying about anyway. Harass them until they leave, and then the men can get back to business. If they don’t leave, they can be blamed for not picking up the obvious signals that they weren’t welcome in the conversation.

Comment #110: junk science  on  06/13  at  03:26 PM

Lindsay, when someone’s an elected representative who won’t listen to you because his dick is too interested in sexytimes with you, yes, it is harassment.  It is not inconsequential.

What if you had a great new proof of squaring the circle but all the mathematicians you talked to wanted to talk about their dicks instead?  That would be harassment.  That would be exclusion.  That would be wrong.  And not on a minor level, either. 

This guy was “out there” as highly sensitive to women’s issues.  His actions were just as hypocritical as that of men who claim to hate teh ghey and are caught tapping their feet in airport restrooms.  Because of privilege he probably doesn’t even see it, but that doesn’t change the hypocrisy.

Comment #111: oldfeminist  on  06/13  at  03:28 PM

And no, it’s not obvious that they don’t have an open relationship.  It’s obvious that they’re saying the things to the media that they would if they didn’t, but those are the things that have to be said to the media in order to reassure them that this is a Properly Approved Heterosexual Marriage.  This narrative demands that the cheated-upon partner be hurt and the cheater feel guilty, and so they act that way, and whether or not it’s accurate is none of our concern.  If his wife is hurt by it then I am very personally sorry that she is hurt, and I think that they have seriously relationship issues to work through and I wish them the best of luck regardless of what they decide as a couple, but it is still irrelevant to his job.

Comment #112: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  03:28 PM

And I agree completely, oldfeminist, and I do care about the hypocrisy angle, and I don’t think that we can ask Republicans to care about hypocrisy if we don’t police our own.  If that makes me a crazy purist then so be it, but at least an effort to live up to what you say and what you think that other people should live up to should be a minimum for public office, in my opinion.  I just have the one vote, though.

Comment #113: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  03:30 PM

Women’s sex drives have nothing to do with any of this.

And I agree with Amanda that the MSM and the congresscritters who’ve spoken on the subject don’t really seem to care so much whether all the women Weiner sexted were consenting. It’s disturbing; people generally don’t seem to think about consent much all. They base their whole concept of sexual morality on “ick factor.”

We’d probably get a lot farther fighting rape culture and double standards and homophobia and transphobia and all the bullshit if we just stuck to the mantra that consent is the only sexual morality issue that really matters. Make bumper stickers and t-shirts. Rent billboards.

Consent Is All That Matters.

By the way, I think Cordova’s said she thinks Weiner intended the gray boxer-briefs shot for the porn star right next to her on his followers list and mis-clicked, which seems possible; he’s obviously not internet-savvy enough to even protect his own privacy.

Comment #114: snobographer  on  06/13  at  03:33 PM

Gracchus, again, if you’re not willing to obtain consent before barging into a sexual encounter then I don’t know what to do to help you.

My point is, we test consent (i.e. openness to a sexual encounter). Just as no-one’s “switch” is permanently set to one position or another, or indeed that it’s less a switch than a dimmer, no-one wears some sort of neon sign indicating where they’re at during a given moment. So people test. They flirt. They express interest.

So Weiner is attracted to this woman. He tests by trying to steer the conversation. He doesn’t get a response and tests again. And again. And again. And again. He sends a cock shot. He’s an inappropriate dope.

Now after two or three of those attempts to steer a conversation toward something I’m not interested in, I’m out of there. Not serious, goodbye. Similarly, after two attempts (maximum) to steer the conversation toward something someone else isn’t interested in, I stop trying. Nothing to do with men or women or feminism or misogyny.

See, there’s this thing called a “rape culture,” but, being a regular commenter here, this shouldn’t be fucking news to you.  You shouldn’t need 101, and the fact that you’re acting like some wet-behind-the-ears rape apologist makes it pretty clear that your head is too far up Weiner’s ass for you to give a shit about something as stupid as feminism at the moment.

You do understand that this is Pandagon, not Shakesville (somehow I’m not surprised that I have to bring up that site again)? On Pandagon we discuss “the patriarchy,” not “rape culture.” And we discuss it as something that hurts everyone, not just women (who are, I’ll have to add for the benefit or your superior purity, obviously impacted far worse than men).

Now here, I’ll show you how how this disengaging from an on-line discussion thing works: I’m trying to have one conversation and asking for links/citations so I can assess your claim and try to incorporate it into Amanda’s wider discussion of prudery. You, on the other hand, keep trying to steer this conversation toward Shakesville-style purity Olympics.

Despite my efforts, it’s clear you’re hell-bent on steering the conversation toward your ends, to the point where you’re doing the equivalent of whipping out a crotch shot by calling me a “rape apologist.” There’s no-one on this site who pays attention to my comments, including Amanda, who wouldn’t react with laughter to that, so I can brush it off as easily as a woman ignoring a dick pic response to her Craigslist W4M ad.

What I can also do is say that you and I are clearly discussing two different issues, and this being a low-stakes on-line conversation, I can choose to end my conversation with you in this thread. Easy, no?

I will entertain comments from others noting how I’ve marginalised you by doing so, although given the nature of how you’ve presented things I’ve marginalised myself. Help, help, I’m being repressed!

Comment #115: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  03:38 PM

So curious now, Gracchus, I have to know…  does rape culture exist?  Yes or no.

Comment #116: Eileen  on  06/13  at  03:51 PM

But “almost inconsequential”? That seems way off.

Well, sit down, everybody, because I agree with Dilan.

Weiner’s behavior is the kind of behavior that has kept women from being fully involved in politics for fucking ever. Its effect is a policing and restriction of women’s activities.

To write that off as “almost inconsequential” says volumes about how much the speaker values the ability of women to be involved in politics on an equal footing with men.

Comment #117: kristin  on  06/13  at  03:52 PM

For your info, Gracchus?  I don’t read Shakesville that often.  I read Pandagon daily.  And here are the pages in which rape culture is mentioned on Pandagon, both in comments and in the posts.  So, sorry that my ladybrain couldn’t grasp the immensity of your deep understanding of feminist terminology, Gracchus; I should’ve listened to you, with your wisdom and your deep knowledge of what it is like to be female in a patriarchy or, as we devoted readers of Shakesville call it (seriously, go there and see how often you find me in the comment threads), rape culture, which is a totally foreign term to you, a regular commenter on this blog, despite the fact that there were a load more links in the search results on here and I just didn’t feel like putting more on there.  You could search yourself, just like how you can use Google to actually check on the consent angle of the Weiner story.  You just refuse to. 

Also, your comments aren’t so much outright rape apology as they are supportive of outright rape apology.  You call people who think that it is important to ensure that consent is clearly obtained before initiating a sexual encounter sex-negative prudes.  That’s so close to the borderline as to be nearly indistinguishable.  And what I mean by assuming that the switch is on “no” is that you assume that until you have received a clear “yes.”  I know that you are a superior feminist and that you have superior feminist knowledge because you actually know some women, but as an actual woman I would suggest that you start with “Yes Means Yes” and move your way on from there.  it would work wonders.

Comment #118: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  03:56 PM

Most of the sex-messaging that I’ve seen involved very consensual encounters, and I’m not about to say that we have the right to police someone’s flirting technique.  I may find something highly offensive, but it may be a big turn-on to another person.

I am aware of only one person who did not “consent” to sexting or online flirting with the congressman—the woman who received the photo that started this whole business.  And her comments online, to the extent I’ve read them, are much more concerned with the harassment she received from persons intent on taking down the congressman, not about being traumatized by receiving the photo itself.

So while I don’t want to pat the congressman on the back for sending the photo that started this whole thing—he recklessly placed himself in a very risky position—I don’t see that photo as just one piece of extreme anti-woman activity. 

Does he ever think of women sexually? Shocker!  USians, do you ever think of others, who may not be your spouse, sexually?  Tsk, tsk, tsk.  The US has a very strange attitude toward sex—it sells everything, but no “serious person” can do it or want it.  Publicly elected officials must get their kids via miracle.

Comment #119: blondie  on  06/13  at  03:58 PM

So curious now, Gracchus, I have to know…  does rape culture exist?  Yes or no.

Not for Gracchus, it sure doesn’t, and since he has All Feminist Knowledge Ever, it doesn’t exist for the silly women from and for whom the whole concept arose.

Comment #120: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  04:01 PM

It’s also interesting that Gracchus, who accused me of disappearing gay people in a previous comment, only invests in a feminist stance when it explicitly includes him, ala ‘patriarchy hurts men too,’ but fails entirely to recognize that rape culture is against all rape, not just the man on woman variety. 

I must assume that he is arguing just to argue and has no real investment in anything he claims to believe.  The lack of investment matches his lack of expertise.

Comment #121: Eileen  on  06/13  at  04:03 PM

So curious now, Gracchus, I have to know…  does rape culture exist?  Yes or no.

It does, of course, though not to the extreme and hair-trigger degree that 2nd wave feminists claim it does in this country. When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail, etc.

That’s why I prefer the 3rd wave formulation of the patriarchy espoused here: one that allows that it’s everyone’s problem; one that allows for a sex-positive approach; one that’s more focused on practical solutions (by effecting change in politics and the MSM) rather than ideological posturing and purity Olympics.

That’s distinct from rape itself, I should add. I don’t know if 1 in 4 women will be raped in her lifetime, but given how many women I’ve met who told me they’ve been molested, sexually assaulted, stalked, propositioned by an employer, etc. I wouldn’t be surprised.

Comment #122: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  04:06 PM

Was his Congressional mojo so strong that it kept her in the chat, entranced until he went too far and showed her his dick?

Gracchus, really?

Many people contact their elected representatives—or even representatives from other districts, if their own district sucks or they admire that rep’s work—because they have a specific position they want to voice as a constituent.  Have you seriously never called or emailed a representative’s office to weigh in on an issue?  And if you did care about something enough to call, or email, or tweet, or whatever, and you actually got the ear of your representative, not some volunteer or a form email, wouldn’t you be a little more reluctant to end that conversation than you would with some Craigslist creep?

Your response reads as if all these women were attracted to him and on some level interested in that sort of interaction, even though multiple people here have pointed out that they were not.  How can they have been “entranced” by a conversation at least one person didn’t find sexy and attempted to change?

If you contacted someone elected to represent you, about an issue important to you, and he pulled this, you wouldn’t get to say your piece about that issue whether you kept interacting or not.  Your choice would be between leaving and not getting to say, “vote yes on H.B. 99!” or staying, submitting to degrading behavior, wasting your time trying to redirect the conversation, and probably still not getting to say, “vote yes on H.B. 99!”  And then probably getting blamed for it, to boot.  If that happened to you, it would actually be a huge violation of your rights.  You should never have been put in the position of needing to say “no” more clearly—not that it would likely make a difference—because your representative should never have been preventing you from expressing your position.

Comment #123: themmases  on  06/13  at  04:06 PM

So Weiner is attracted to this woman. He tests by trying to steer the conversation. He doesn’t get a response and tests again. And again. And again. And again. He sends a cock shot. He’s an inappropriate dope.

Now after two or three of those attempts to steer a conversation toward something I’m not interested in, I’m out of there. Not serious, goodbye. Similarly, after two attempts (maximum) to steer the conversation toward something someone else isn’t interested in, I stop trying. Nothing to do with men or women or feminism or misogyny.

Wait what? Seriously? Men feeling entitled to harangue women just because they’re attracted to them has nothing to do with misogyny or feminism?

Comment #124: snobographer  on  06/13  at  04:06 PM

It’s also interesting that Gracchus, who accused me of disappearing gay people in a previous comment

First of all, the “disappearing gay people thing” was a joke. I understand how pure feminist activists, being above humour, might miss that.

only invests in a feminist stance when it explicitly includes him, ala ‘patriarchy hurts men too,’

And of course I invest in a feminist stance out of self interest—same as women do. Seems more mundane than interesting, although I’m not a People’s Hero activist.

but fails entirely to recognize that rape culture is against all rape, not just the man on woman variety.

I’m using the standard definition of rape culture proposed by 2nd wave feminists. Their focus was definitely on the “man on woman variety.” If you’d agree that their definition is passe, then it’s a matter of terminology. I use “the patriarchy” to make the distinction.

Comment #125: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  04:12 PM

On Pandagon we discuss “the patriarchy,” not “rape culture.”

Um, demonstrably false. Amanda has written extensively on rape culture just this year, dude. Tune in.

Comment #126: Well, what?  on  06/13  at  04:14 PM

Who’s creating strawmen now?

Comment #127: Eileen  on  06/13  at  04:14 PM

Wait what? Seriously? Men feeling entitled to harangue women just because they’re attracted to them has nothing to do with misogyny or feminism?

No, having the ability to end a conversation you’re not interested in continuing, or being so clueless that you don’t understand the other person doesn’t want to discuss the same thing, has nothing to do with men or women or feminism or misogyny.

Comment #128: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  04:15 PM

Good gods, are we back to that second/third wave shit again, Gracchus? As someone who sits in age between the second and third waves, I’ve said this until I’m blue in the face:

As long as we keep arguing about who is more or less feminist, more or less “sex positive,” more or less aware of rape culture, who is more or less inclusive, we don’t move forward for ANYONE.

What Weiner did is wrong, full stop. It was stupid, full stop.

If every encounter you have with a woman begins with you assessing whether or not you’re attracted to her, and steering the conversation towards flirtation if you are, you’ve missed the point. If I meet a man in a professional capacity, and he uses that to “test the waters” he’s disrespecting me as a professional - he’s putting my sexual availability and interest above that of the capacity in which he’s meeting me, and reducing me to what some refer to as “the sex class.” In other words, he’s suggesting the most important part of who I am is my sexual availability to him if he finds me attractive. As a professional, I find that insulting and boorish at best.

Comment #129: Broce  on  06/13  at  04:15 PM

And wtf, the humorless feminist trope? Someone contact Gracchus, his account has been hijacked by a troll, methinks.

Comment #130: Well, what?  on  06/13  at  04:16 PM

There’s no-one on this site who pays attention to my comments, including Amanda, who wouldn’t react with laughter to that

Dude. That’s not how feminism works. Being a decent human being most of the time does not buy you indulgences for the odd jerk move.

USians, do you ever think of others, who may not be your spouse, sexually?  Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Yeah, I do, but I DON’T SEND THEM UNSOLICITED GRAPHIC PHOTOS. And I don’t keep talking about how my nips are tingling while they’re trying to tell me their dog is lost, or their house is on fire or something. Jesus, it’s not that fucking complicated.

Comment #131: kristin  on  06/13  at  04:17 PM

Who’s creating strawmen now?

Regarding what? Shakesville is the site where humour goes to die, hacked to death by an angry mob of activists who are only in it for the greater good.

Comment #132: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  04:20 PM

Non sequiter.

Comment #133: Eileen  on  06/13  at  04:22 PM

First of all, the “disappearing gay people thing” was a joke. I understand how pure feminist activists, being above humour, might miss that.

WOW. Oh yeah…“humorless feminists.” Has Gracchus been replaced by a troll when I wasnt looking?

Here is a little anecdote which might help illustrate.

Years ago…I think I was in my middle 30s at the time…I was at work, and standing within a couple of feet of me were two higher ranking men. Neither was in my direct line of report, but they were managers in the general department. They were discussing the Women’s Olympic Hockey Team’s gold medal, and going on about how the “chicks” did a good job. And now they should go home and get knocked up, and make some “real” hockey players. I knew these guys pretty well, and they were clueless but without real intent to harm. 

I said “Look, I know you guys are just being assholes and kidding around. I’m waay too experienced to be personally upset by your crap, but imagine for a moment that I was a 22 year old kid in her first professional job. Think about how *she* would feel if two male managers said that standing next to her desk. What kind of message does that send her about you, this company, and her future here?” They got it. This is *exactly* the way a young woman trying to communicate with her representative about politics would feel if he kept steering the conversation away from politics and towards his crotch. Intimidated, excluded from political participation, discouraged, and upset. She might not quit her job on the spot, but it does *not* change how she would feel in that instance.

Comment #134: Broce  on  06/13  at  04:23 PM

Sorry… for clarification, ‘non sequitur’

Comment #135: Eileen  on  06/13  at  04:23 PM

Gracchus, your attempt to marginalize a group of feminists that you don’t like by accusing them of being humorless is kind of sad, but, besides that, I’m pretty sure that we’ve established that no one in this conversation is a transplant from Shakesville to here.  I think it may do you some good to read over there, but believe it or not, creating straw men of people who read Shakesville and the people who write there doesn’t change the fact that Anthony Weiner sexually harassed women (or, if we don’t want to use the legal terms, harangued them) and that you are acting like a completely ignorant tool about feminism, rape culture, harassment, and who knows what else.  It also doesn’t change the fact that they gave a shit about the consent aspect of this story while the blogs that I read are mostly silent on the topic.

Comment #136: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  04:25 PM

There’s no-one on this site who pays attention to my comments, including Amanda, who wouldn’t react with laughter to that

Also, Gracchus, I almost certainly don’t comment enough here for you to know me/care much, but I do lurk here a lot.  I have paid attention to what you’ve written here in the past.  And I’m not laughing—I’m just dismayed by the comments you’re making today.

I also don’t want to see a public advocate for women, at a time when there are so few, resign in a scandal that’s been made all about prudery and nothing to do with consent.  But that doesn’t mean—that can’t mean—that we can decide not to worry about consent or marginalization this one time because we like the positions of the person in question.

The cognitive dissonance I had after reading INTPagan’s initial comment definitely made me wobbly and defensive for a while before I got around to posting.  I want to be right, I want to defend good people, and I want to be part of communities that do and are the same; barring that, I want to believe that I do those things!  I hope you’ll consider the possibility that this is a blind spot for you, too, or that you’ve argued yourself into a corner that maybe you don’t really want to be in.

Comment #137: themmases  on  06/13  at  04:29 PM

I am now trying to remember if there is *any* regular identified-male commenter here who hasn’t shown his dick, metaphorically, at some point.  Losing his shit when the bit of privilege he is particularly attached to gets stepped on, and refusing to learn from it.

Not saying one doesn’t exist, but, shit.  It’s depressing.  Privilege denying dudes suck.

Comment #138: oldfeminist  on  06/13  at  04:33 PM

Dude. That’s not how feminism works. Being a decent human being most of the time does not buy you indulgences for the odd jerk move.

Dude. There’s been no jerk move. Read above: I haven’t excused Weiner. I’ve just pointed out that, power imbalances aside (and they really are aside here), one can end an on-line conversation one doesn’t like pretty easily.

As long as we keep arguing about who is more or less feminist, more or less “sex positive,” more or less aware of rape culture, who is more or less inclusive, we don’t move forward for ANYONE.

I’m not the one who came in here demanding we change the topic and engage in purity tests. I’d also argue that being less inclusive and less sex-positive (i.e. more prudish) definitely doesn’t move us forward.

Comment #139: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  04:36 PM

I actually do read Shakesville, though issues with my work computer prevent me from commenting there most of the time.  I was unaware that this rendered me humorless, which should also come as a surprise to the friend I made laugh so hard last weekend that his drink shot out of his nose. 

I just fail to see what that has to do with this, other than that Gracchus has to dismiss everything to do with Shakesville in order to support his still false proposition that nobody has linked to any news source discussing possible non-consent in this issue.  Remembering my bad logic: all swans are black, that swan is white, therefore that is not a swan.  Shakesville is not a swan.

Comment #140: Eileen  on  06/13  at  04:36 PM

Gracchus, really?

Yes, really. The strange historical fact is that prior to about 1991, constituents couldn’t use the Internet to contact their reps. They had to use phones and in-person visits to express their pleasure or displeasure. In those cases, “chasing around the desk” and other harassment occurred, too, and it was far more difficult to get out of those scary situations.

And if you did care about something enough to call, or email, or tweet, or whatever, and you actually got the ear of your representative, not some volunteer or a form email, wouldn’t you be a little more reluctant to end that conversation than you would with some Craigslist creep?

If the conversation was about my fine bum rather than the issue I called about, I wouldn’t be reluctant at all in ending the conversation (unless I was attracted to her and she was single). I don’t like wasting time that way. If the meeting is going nowhere, I’m done.

Your response reads as if all these women were attracted to him and on some level interested in that sort of interaction, even though multiple people here have pointed out that they were not.

I said some, not all. If you can watch videos in privacy, click on that Maher link I posted above. Did the woman in that reading sound uninterested?

Comment #141: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  04:37 PM

@128: Gracchus - Every single instance where a guy prioritizes his own sexual interests over the interests of any woman is an isolated incident then. Nothing broadly systemic going on here, folks.

Comment #142: snobographer  on  06/13  at  04:39 PM

Yes, Gracchus. Pointing out that being dismayed with Weiner’s sexually harassing behavior is not the same as “pearl clutching” is totally a purity test. You got us.

Comment #143: kristin  on  06/13  at  04:40 PM

“If the conversation was about my fine bum rather than the issue I called about, I wouldn’t be reluctant at all in ending the conversation (unless I was attracted to her and she was single). I don’t like wasting time that way.”

Oh, the fine subtle scent of privilege on display, from a person who has clearly never dealt with unwanted sexual come-ons from a person you had approached on non-sexual issues.  In my case it wasn’t a horrible, scarring event, but it turned me off to something I had been excited about, and it made me feel unwelcome in a field I had wanted to join.

And it’s not a problem when a congressman does this?  Writing from an account that people reach him on primarily because he is a congressman?  No, no problem at all.  They should just disengage from the political process if they don’t like the looks of their congressperson’s dick.

Comment #144: Eileen  on  06/13  at  04:42 PM

Um, can we have a cite on the nonconsent issue? If consent was violated, yes, it is an issue, but I have yet to see much along those lines. As for accusing Weiner of escalating and/or grooming, well, that’s what people seeking potential lovers do. Now whether it’s appropriate or not depends entirely on the context, and that’s where consent becomes an issue. But so far I’m calling “not proven” on INTPagan’s allegations.

Also, can I just say this is the single stupidest thread I have ever seen on Pandagon, and I’m counting some of the worst of the derailed food threads. The sex-negative undertones to a lot of the comments here are entirely inappropriate to Pandagon, even if they’re otherwise reasonable comments, and the frothing rantage seems to serve no purpose except to get the message “SHUT UP I’M RIGHT” across.

Comment #145: BrianX  on  06/13  at  04:49 PM

Gracchus, I never demanded purity.  I said that very few people on the left are talking about the fact that Weiner sexually harasses women and that, since that is in line with both our views and his, that means that the left is being hypocritical by refusing to engage in this the way that they would if a Republican violated their own morals.  What’s more, is I argued that it enables men who harass as long as they’re important enough to the movement.  If that’s a purity test then shit, dude, I don’t know what to tell you.

Comment #146: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  04:50 PM

I’d also argue that being less inclusive and less sex-positive (i.e. more prudish) definitely doesn’t move us forward.

Gracchus, where the hell are you today? No one argued we should be less sex positive or less inclusive, least of all me. What I stated was that if you set up aspects or generations of the feminist movement in opposition to one another, you stall progress (and, additionally, each generation ends up having to reinvent the wheel).

Comment #147: Broce  on  06/13  at  04:53 PM

If the conversation was about my fine bum rather than the issue I called about, I wouldn’t be reluctant at all in ending the conversation (unless I was attracted to her and she was single). I don’t like wasting time that way. If the meeting is going nowhere, I’m done.

I think you’re still missing my point.  It’s not OK to be cut off from expressing your wishes to the person elected to represent you.  Not only would you have been silenced on that one issue, most people would feel uncomfortable contacting their representative again, maybe for the duration of his term(s).  Do you really not see how toxic that would be to someone’s political participation?  Again, I’m just dismayed—I’m >99% sure that I’m not making a new argument here.

Comment #148: themmases  on  06/13  at  04:53 PM

The NY Times on whether the recipient consented to receipt of a picture of Mr. Weiner’s penis:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/09/nyregion/weiners-pattern-turning-political-admirers-into-online-pursuits.html?pagewanted=1

Comment #149: Broce  on  06/13  at  04:56 PM

From the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/09/nyregion/weiners-pattern-turning-political-admirers-into-online-pursuits.html?pagewanted=1

“The women who have acknowledged encountering Mr. Weiner on social media and then having personal communications with him varied in age, race and location, and even in their willingness to engage the congressman in sexual discourse.  Ms. Cordova’s experience with Mr. Weiner appears to fit a pattern: in rapid and reckless fashion, he sought to transform informal online conversations about politics and partisanship into sexually charged exchanges, at times laced with racy language and explicit images. “

More:

“I have not sent him any suggestive messages,” Ms. Cordova said.

She said she was, however, surprised by his informal tone. “He was just very casual,” she said. “It wasn’t like talking to a U.S. congressman.”

A spokeswoman for Mr. Weiner did not dispute Ms. Cordova’s account.

Mr. Weiner, at his news conference on Monday, said he had sent Ms. Cordova the underwear photo “as part of a joke.” But Ms. Cordova said the image was not in keeping with the tenor of their previous interactions.

“I still didn’t get the joke part of it,” she said.

 

Comment #150: Eileen  on  06/13  at  04:56 PM

WOW. Oh yeah…“humorless feminists.” Has Gracchus been replaced by a troll when I wasnt looking?

Not humourless feminists. A feminist who missed the irony of a hetero-normative privileged statement made by a progressive. Not that I’m gonna accuse her of being a f*g-basher because of it.

I want to be right, I want to defend good people, and I want to be part of communities that do and are the same; barring that, I want to believe that I do those things!  I hope you’ll consider the possibility that this is a blind spot for you, too, or that you’ve argued yourself into a corner that maybe you don’t really want to be in.

I appreciate your comment—beats being called a “rape apologist.”

It’s interesting that you use the term blind spot, because I’d use the optical allusion (sorry) of a sense of perspective. By that I mean I’m looking at the medium (basically Internet chats), the nature of the offence (basically lechery), and the reason this is getting any attention at all (the Carnival of BS discussed above).

Prudery is a central issue here, as is the MSM environment. That Weiner was creepy and stupid is self-evident, but so are all those Craigslist dudes. It seems that some feminists are all for the mix of prudery and sensationlism so long as it slaps down Weiner and sets an example for others.

Losing his shit when the bit of privilege he is particularly attached to gets stepped on, and refusing to learn from it.

The only privilege that’s been stepped on is my ability to unilaterally end an on-line conversation that’s not going according to an agreed-upon agenda. Are you claiming that women don’t share that privilege?

I actually do read Shakesville, though issues with my work computer prevent me from commenting there most of the time.  I was unaware that this rendered me humorless

It doesn’t. Unless you run the Web site called Shakesville.

There are humourless people on Pandagon, too, obviously. The hosts aren’t included in that subset.

Comment #151: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  04:57 PM

Broce, Eileen:

Ah, okay. Sounds more like obliviousness than intentional harrassment, so it does seem likely he’s crossed the line a fair bit and either didn’t realize it or didn’t care.

Comment #152: BrianX  on  06/13  at  05:00 PM

@BrianX: What sex negative comments?

Comment #153: BlackBloc  on  06/13  at  05:01 PM

BlackBloc:

I said “undertones”, not “comments”.

Comment #154: BrianX  on  06/13  at  05:03 PM

#148 is right on the money.

Let’s take this out of Weiner’s specific context and just make it a generic 50 year old congressman.

27 year old female constituent tweets: “I am really proud of you for your advocacy of a pull-out from Afghanistan. You’re one of my favorite people in Washington and I’m glad you are fighting for what’s right.”

Congressman: “Thanks. If we all work together and make our voices heard, we can bring the boys home. Tell me a bit about yourself. I like to get to know my constituents.”

Constituent: “I’m 27 years old, am working as a graduate assistant in psychology at Michigan State while I get my Ph.D. I hope I can contribute to the world and maybe get into public service the way you did.”

Congressman: “That’s great. We need more people like you in public service. Do you have a family yet? You know I’m always fighting for working families.”

Constituent: “No, not yet. I’m focused on getting my degree and maybe then I’ll settle down.”

Congressman: “That’s always a good idea. You date a lot of guys or do you have a boyfriend.”

Constituent (feeling a little weird): “No, I’m not really seeing anyone right now. I wanted to ask you about the health care bill you supported last year though. I’m concerned that psychiatric care won’t be covered. Is that true?”

Congressman: “We’ll do everything we can to include parity for mental health care. No boyfriend, eh? Do you ever find yourself lonely and wanting a man?”

Etc.

I can see how enduring this sort of thing will just make a lot of woman think it isn’t worth it to make their voices heard.

Comment #155: Dilan Esper  on  06/13  at  05:05 PM

BrianX:  And it seems appropriate for him to say as much and apologize. All this hedging has been intensely dismaying coming from someone with whom I have otherwise agreed.

Comment #156: Eileen  on  06/13  at  05:06 PM

BrianX, feel free to quote something that is sex-negative.  If you think that it’s sex-negative to think that it is reasonable to be able to contact a public figure without receiving a picture of a penis in return then I really don’t know what to tell you, either.  Also, if you think that it’s just obliviousness, then I ask you if you would think it was simple obliviousness for a Republican to try to turn every chat with a female constituent into an online sex session.  The problem here isn’t sex.  The problem is that he sexualizes all of his interactions with females and sometimes does so past the point where it is clear that they are not interested.  How is this okay?

Comment #157: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  05:06 PM

Yes, Gracchus. Pointing out that being dismayed with Weiner’s sexually harassing behavior is not the same as “pearl clutching” is totally a purity test. You got us.

One might as well point out that the star comes out at night. The purity test comes in when someone like Amanda looks at the more subtle issues of stellar birth and such, only to be told she forgot to mention that the stars come out at night!!!

Every single instance where a guy prioritizes his own sexual interests over the interests of any woman is an isolated incident then. Nothing broadly systemic going on here, folks.

Read 128 again. Did I say or even imply that?

Oh, the fine subtle scent of privilege on display, from a person who has clearly never dealt with unwanted sexual come-ons from a person you had approached on non-sexual issues.

I actually had that experience once, when I was younger with a co-worker. I was a bit freaked out, but even given my inexperience I managed to keep my cool and exit the conversation gracefully.

And it’s not a problem when a congressman does this?

Of course it’s a problem. However, disengaging from an uncomfortable private conversation with a politician doesn’t mean one is handing over one’s vote and right to free expression in the same breath.

Comment #158: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  05:07 PM

Eileen:

Indeed. The problem, as with all such obliviousness and/or entitlement, is getting the person to admit that it’s a problem.

Comment #159: BrianX  on  06/13  at  05:08 PM

Prudery is a central issue here, as is the MSM environment. That Weiner was creepy and stupid is self-evident, but so are all those Craigslist dudes. It seems that some feminists are all for the mix of prudery and sensationlism so long as it slaps down Weiner and sets an example for others.

There’s a difference here. I’m really stunned you don’t see it. A congressman using his title to send out pictures of his junk to women who want to discuss politics is a far different thing than some weird creepy guy on Craigslist sending out his picture to women who are looking for a man/relationship/date.

Prudery IS an issue here, but the US being prudish does *not* cancel out the harassment/cluelessness/privilege issue

Comment #160: Broce  on  06/13  at  05:09 PM

I’m unclear…  I mean that it would have been nice for him to apologize for muddying his position with his unsolicited overtures.  I really don’t care what he does with anyone, wife or not, in his actual private life, and it is also dismaying to see him apologizing for offending conservative sexual mores. 

Private life means something different for a politician than it would for you or me.  His Twitter account, where the public reaches him on public matters, is -OF COURSE -an inappropriate place for him to be soliciting.

Comment #161: Eileen  on  06/13  at  05:09 PM

I can see how enduring this sort of thing will just make a lot of woman think it isn’t worth it to make their voices heard.

Exactly. Very well put.

Comment #162: junk science  on  06/13  at  05:10 PM

Read 128 again. Did I say or even imply that?

Yes.

Now after two or three of those attempts to steer a conversation toward something I’m not interested in, I’m out of there. Not serious, goodbye. Similarly, after two attempts (maximum) to steer the conversation toward something someone else isn’t interested in, I stop trying. Nothing to do with men or women or feminism or misogyny.

So.  That’s awkward.

Comment #163: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  05:10 PM

I wasn’t thinking even of the muddying aspect, honestly. Just the boundary-crossing itself, which is where the problem lies.

Comment #164: BrianX  on  06/13  at  05:13 PM

However, disengaging from an uncomfortable private conversation with a politician doesn’t m

You are living in the world you wish we had, rather than the world we do. A young woman, without your level of male privilege or experience in dealing with the world is going to deal quite differently with a randy congressman than you are. I’m 53, and I’d have responded to his picture with some comment like “That’s all you’ve got?? Poor man.” But I’m not a star-struck 21 year old woman who has been enculturated to respect men in power, to not make a fuss, to never make men feel uncomfortable, who is having her first contact with a powerful man. By constantly turning the conversation back to sex, she IS likely to feel disempowered politically. She just doesn’t have the experience to handle something like that by “exiting the conversation gracefully.” I spent my entire career working primarily with men, and I’m a tough, sarcastic woman who does not take shit. At 21, even *I* might not have had the presence of mind or the grace to have exited such a conversation easily. As a man, you have not had the same enculturation that she has, and dismissing that out of hand by saying she should just exit the conversation gracefully shows both insensitivity and privilege. It also does smack of victim blaming.

And again, when a woman is approaching you in a professional capacity, as she did as a constituent, turning the conversation towards your dick is at the very, very least boorish and disrespectful.

Comment #165: Broce  on  06/13  at  05:17 PM

Also, I find it interesting that he has so few friends. Untreated Asperger’s or anxiety disorders? From personal experience, it’s very easy to be in denial about there being a problem, making it all the more likely that it’s going to get you in trouble.

Comment #166: BrianX  on  06/13  at  05:17 PM

As far as I know, none of the women Weiner sexted were his constituents. He’s got power in virtue of his office, and a decent person would be aware of that, but it’s not the kind of power that forces someone to put up with you. Even powerful people are allowed to flirt with less powerful people, within reason. 

If his record is any indication, Weiner was looking for consensual sexual banter and he either misjudged her interest or sent the tweet to the wrong person entirely. That’s a sign of boorishness, recklessness, narcissism, unchecked male privilege, and a bunch of other unflattering things, but it’s not sexual harassment. It’s not the kind of thing someone should lose his job over, if he’s otherwise doing a good job.

Ginger the porn star, with whom he already had a consensual sexualized rapport, was right next to Geanette on his follower list. Twitter has auto-complete, so if you’re not paying attention, it’s easy to tweet the wrong person if their names start with the same letter. Every twitter user has probably done this at some point.

Weiner doesn’t have a history of sending unwanted pictures to random women. He has a history of seeking willing partners for virtual exchanges. This time, for whatever reason, he attempted to tweet a picture to someone who didn’t expect it and, in fact, didn’t receive it. It was deleted before she saw it. So, we’re talking an attempted inappropriate tweet, not even a completed one.

I say a single unwanted tweet is virtually inconsequential because twitter is such an ephemeral medium. Having someone tweet something at you just doesn’t have the same psychological impact as a face-to-face interaction, a phone call, or even a letter.

Comment #167: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  06/13  at  05:18 PM

It seems like we get so caught up in pro-sex/anti-sex as a binary system, that we can’t talk about things like this when they come up.  It’s not a binary.  I can be pro-sex and still talk about this as a consent issue.  I am, I do.

Comment #168: Eileen  on  06/13  at  05:18 PM

So, BrianX: sex-negative undertones.  Got ‘em?  Still waiting.

Comment #169: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  05:19 PM

Gracchus, where the hell are you today? No one argued we should be less sex positive or less inclusive, least of all me.

You said:

As long as we keep arguing about who is more or less feminist, more or less “sex positive,” more or less aware of rape culture, who is more or less inclusive, we don’t move forward for ANYONE.

I’m saying that anyone (not you) who thinks that there’s any debate over the benefits of sex-positiveness or inclusivity in pushing forward feminism isn’t helping. For me, it’s not even a point of argument.

I think you’re still missing my point.  It’s not OK to be cut off from expressing your wishes to the person elected to represent you.

I’d agree, but no-one’s being completely cut off.

I’ll give you a favourite personal example. Back in late 2002, I called my Senator’s office about the upcoming Iraq war vote, on which she was going to vote yes. I got an aide, who arrogantly informed me that “Senator Clinton has the information knows what’s best.”  I knew I wasn’t going to get any further, and was mightily peeved.

None of that prevented me from voting against her in the next election, from pointing out her unapologetic support of Prince Bush’s bogus war every chance I got, from supporting Obama in the primary, etc.

Comment #170: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  05:19 PM

Yes, Gracchus, and that’s exactly the same as being reminded that even your elected officials think that you’re an object rather than a human being with whom it is worth engaging in political discourse.

Comment #171: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  05:24 PM

“That’s a sign of boorishness, recklessness, narcissism, unchecked male privilege, and a bunch of other unflattering things, but it’s not sexual harassment. It’s not the kind of thing someone should lose his job over, if he’s otherwise doing a good job.”

That’s pretty much how I feel, other than to add that it’s inappropriate and unprofessional to seek sex partners among people who have approached you because you are a congressman and a public figure.  Resignation doesn’t seem in order, but I wish more people could more easily recognize that this person they admire acted like a creep.

Comment #172: Eileen  on  06/13  at  05:26 PM

I like Lindsay Beyerstein’s writing and have for years, but I think this:

Weiner doesn’t have a history of sending unwanted pictures to random women. He has a history of seeking willing partners for virtual exchanges. This time, for whatever reason, he attempted to tweet a picture to someone who didn’t expect it and, in fact, didn’t receive it. It was deleted before she saw it. So, we’re talking an attempted inappropriate tweet, not even a completed one. I say a single unwanted tweet is virtually inconsequential because twitter is such an ephemeral medium.

is not consistent with the actual facts of what Weiner did:

“The women who have acknowledged encountering Mr. Weiner on social media and then having personal communications with him varied in age, race and location, and even in their willingness to engage the congressman in sexual discourse.  Ms. Cordova’s experience with Mr. Weiner appears to fit a pattern: in rapid and reckless fashion, he sought to transform informal online conversations about politics and partisanship into sexually charged exchanges, at times laced with racy language and explicit images. “

Comment #173: Dilan Esper  on  06/13  at  05:29 PM

Well, this is definitely where the inquiry over this issue should have been all along.

Comment #174: Eileen  on  06/13  at  05:33 PM

But I’m not a star-struck 21 year old woman who has been enculturated to respect men in power, to not make a fuss, to never make men feel uncomfortable, who is having her first contact with a powerful man.

Sorry, but not much privilege was involved in that case. In my I was 22, the woman propositioning me was an indirect superior at work (where I was very low on the totem pole) and on-air talent. Also, back in those days I was usually reluctant to disappoint people by saying “no.”

But despite all that I managed to say “no.” It wasn’t a big deal. It would have been even less so if she had been doing it over some DOS-based inter-office chat application.

Comment #175: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  05:36 PM

Shorter Gracchus: “I was sexually harassed once and it was EASY.  What are you bitches whining about?”

Comment #176: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  05:41 PM

Oh, Gracchus, I just got the big, prank-y joke you’ve been pulling this whole thread, and I’m laughing so hard.  It has to be a joke, right?

Comment #177: Eileen  on  06/13  at  05:43 PM

Oh, Gracchus, I just got the big, prank-y joke you’ve been pulling this whole thread, and I’m laughing so hard.  It has to be a joke, right?

No joke, Eileen. I really am that awesome.

Comment #178: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  05:49 PM

I actually had that experience once

A whole once, huh?

Hey everybody, Gracchus was dismissed and objectified instead of listened to once! Therefore, he knows all about how it’s not really a big deal when it happens to wimmins, because shut up.

Case closed!

Comment #179: kristin  on  06/13  at  05:52 PM

Did you notice the Weiner-like mojo I exerted on everyone, by the way? I didn’t even have to post a picture of my spectacular boxer-brief endowment to keep them rolling?

Comment #180: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  05:52 PM

A whole once, huh?

Yep, a whole once. Which is more than the whole nothin’ they were claiming as a basis for my supposed ignorance.

Comment #181: Gracchus.  on  06/13  at  05:55 PM

Eileen, if you can give me a reason that Gracchus hasn’t morphed into a complete asshole for this thread then I would be most gratified, because I usually enjoy reading his comments.  I will feel much, much better if this is all one long joke.

Comment #182: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  05:55 PM

You’re right!  Your one experience of this is the equivalent, if not the superior, to the entire lived experience of being socialized as a female and interacting with people who objectify you as a female!  How could I be so stupid?  It has exploded my ladybrain.

Comment #183: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  05:56 PM

That’s a sign of boorishness, recklessness, narcissism, unchecked male privilege, and a bunch of other unflattering things, but it’s not sexual harassment. It’s not the kind of thing someone should lose his job over, if he’s otherwise doing a good job.

I agree with most of this, though I do think that sending someone a picture of your genitals is harassment on the same level that flashing someone on the subway is harassment. I don’t think Weiner should lose his job for it, but perhaps he should for rank stupidity, cluelessness and like a number of progressives, throwing us all under the bus in his pursuit of sexual pleasure. I don’t just mean women or feminists, I mean all progressives. (As I’ve noted before, if Weiner & Edwards had not fallen prey to their egos, either or both could have done enormous good for social & economic justice…all frittered…or in this case, Twittered, away for naught - that pisses me off). Are there tons of other people in the government who have done worse? You bet your arse there are. And I’d be behind getting rid of them too.

Comment #184: Broce  on  06/13  at  05:58 PM

Hats off to the comments by INTPagan and Eileen; my thoughts exactly.

Comment #185: Microwave Bacon  on  06/13  at  05:59 PM

I’m saying that anyone (not you) who thinks that there’s any debate over the benefits of sex-positiveness or inclusivity in pushing forward feminism isn’t helping. For me, it’s not even a point of argument.

Think you missed my point again, Gracchus. You are the person who brought up “feminist waves” as being more or less sex positive. (BTW, having lived through the second wave, whilst too young to participate actively, I think there was a considerably lesser amount of anti-sex than is commonly believed - I surely didnt get that telegram, but thats another matter)

Divide and conquer is a tool of the ruling class. Don’t get caught up in it.

Comment #186: Broce  on  06/13  at  06:02 PM

167: Lindsay Beyerstein - Weiner himself never said he tweeted that photo to Cordova by accident. He said he tweeted it to her as a joke. I’m with Cordova on that; I don’t get the joke either.

I really wish this whole thing wasn’t as bad as it looks but it’s getting harder to defend this.

Comment #187: snobographer  on  06/13  at  06:14 PM

I’m back and forth on the question of consent, but it is definitely the real, pressing question that needs to be asked and investigated, and I can’t believe that this subject is so murky that most people are incapable of penetrating the bullshit to reach this point.  Weiner might still pull this out with an appropriate and self-aware apology, but not if people continue to build up the sex circus around all of this.  People like Gracchus who amuse themselves by calling everyone who wants to talk about this prudish, as if we were one huge indistinct group with identical motives, will be just as responsible for Weiner eventually losing his job as the people on the other side who are also trying this into a war for America’s morals.  Gracchus is the one with the purity test, just as much as Fox news.  Gracchus is keeping this from being argued on the grounds it needs to be argued on.

What he did was inappropriate.  What he did was unprofessional.  Was it an instance of non-consent?  I’d like to believe not.  We need to explore that.

Comment #188: Eileen  on  06/13  at  06:24 PM

Sorry, but not much privilege was involved in that case. In my I was 22, the woman propositioning me was an indirect superior at work (where I was very low on the totem pole) and on-air talent. Also, back in those days I was usually reluctant to disappoint people by saying “no.”

Which is entirely different from being a 21 year old woman. Wishful thinking, Gracchus. It would be really nice if boys & girls had the same experiences growing up, but they don’t. I doubt very much that at the first sign of your secondary sex characteristics, for example, you experienced street harassment. I don’t know a single solitary woman who didn’t from the time she hit early puberty to the age of 45

Comment #189: Broce  on  06/13  at  06:41 PM

Hey, Gracchus’ experience being hit on by a superior is exactly the same as when a man three times my age whom I trusted tried to corner me in an alley when I was fourteen.  It is also not different from the fact that I and a number of my friends were afraid to walk around our apartments in our early teens because we were sexually harassed.  NO DIFFERENCE YOU GUYS IT’S ALL GOOD.

Comment #190: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  06:48 PM

Wow I kind of started off on Gracchus’ side, inasmuch as I’d like to be on Weiner’s side, but he lost me rapidly. Why do people keep digging?

Comment #191: typist  on  06/13  at  06:59 PM

Why do people keep digging?

Because privilege is a shovel.

Comment #192: Broce  on  06/13  at  07:05 PM

Who could have thought that starting a thread off with a demand to know why people are refusing to talk about a thing that people hadn’t heard of until the demand for them to talk about it could have ended up where this thread is at now

Comment #193: Dan  on  06/13  at  07:10 PM

I wasn’t demanding that the thread talk about it.  I was asking why it was that the poster and everyone else in the blogsophere is pretending that this problem doesn’t exist when they are guaranteed to be that level of informed, with the media that they take in.  And I still think it’s fair.

Comment #194: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  07:44 PM

@Eileen, “What he did was inappropriate.  What he did was unprofessional.  Was it an instance of non-consent?  I’d like to believe not.  We need to explore that.”

That’s my take. And this will be long and winding.

I’m a pretty sex positive type woman. Open/poly relationship, supportive of all the letters in the pansexual alphabet, producer of feminist comedy festivals and erotic reading series. I’m 42 and don’t really know what Wave that puts me in but here’s my take.

1) If anyone sent me texts veering off topic…like were I to be engaging about politics and the politician veered towards recipes instead of my questions…If anyone I was not pretty darn familiar with sent me (unrequested) photos of disembodied anatomy*** of any kind (though I’ll admit especially sexual parts), I’d think the person had boundary issues at the very least.  Or wasn’t paying attention to what I was asking for which would indicate a general lack of real interest in the conversation, only his or her topics or body parts.

2) Which for a politician, doing it online, under his or her “official” twitter seems foolish, selfish and lacking in judgement to me.

3) If the sex texts and photos were consensual, I still have a problem with the lack of judgement in using a pretty damn public and traceable forum to do that. That’s what fake emails and chat programs are for.  Because HE HOLDS PUBLIC OFFICE and look what’s happened to Edwards and so forth and so on. Not finding a way to keep the shenanigans as private as possible with his paramours is either a sign of ...
a. denial and entitlement a mile wide (poor judgement and boundaries)
b. a desire to get caught (self sabotage)
or
c. selfishness to the degree that it seems kinda sad

In which case,

4) I don’t think that person winds up being the best representative that they can be even though in our current system selfish, entitled narcissists do often get elected pretty easily and we should be focusing on fixing THAT as well as prudery.

And who can.  I get that. For me, the mess is both things being debated here-a man acting a right fool (and people have every right to do that), the media making asses of themselves where they don’t belong, and if there IS an issue of consent? Like if it comes out he was blasting wang shots uninvited and without welcome on the other end of the tubes, then I think he needs some serious time out to figure out what is motivating him and how badly does he want to serve the public verses serving his pubic.

***I mean can you imagine how weird you’d find it if someone you just met in cyberspace was sending you photos of their uvula or instep or ear canal? Like…what the hell?

Also, Gracchus….your comments are confusing today.  I think that while lechery may be the main thing Weiner is guilty of? I dunno…I’d be pretty damn pissed off if my representative sent me a cock shot because it would seem like male disrespect as usual, instead of respect for me as a constituent. I get that he’s human and horny, I do, but it seems (to me) like what he was probably getting off on was the risk, the thrill of wang blasting, and the power of it all.  That’s what’s worrisome to me.  And I get that he can be a risk prone dude and a good rep at the same time? Except guess what? Now he can’t. Because he risked too much and put people in really shitty positions all of which seems like a total ass move.

Comment #195: JulesAboutTown  on  06/13  at  07:53 PM

And I wish one could consensually serve their publics and their privates all at the same time, and possibly? One can. But not on twitter pics. Not today, not in our current culture. I don’t know what to do about it.

Comment #196: JulesAboutTown  on  06/13  at  08:01 PM

Harassment is severe or pervasive sexually-themed or discriminatory expression that has the effect of making it more difficult for a woman to do her job or exercise her rights on account of her gender.

This definition would imply that unsolicited sexual photoes in a casual context can’t be harassment, wouldn’t it?  It’s not job related, nor is it preventing an exercise of rights.  I assume that that’s a strict legal definition?

Comment #197: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/13  at  08:10 PM

Many people contact their elected representatives—or even representatives from other districts, if their own district sucks or they admire that rep’s work—because they have a specific position they want to voice as a constituent.

Was Weiner hitting on constituents, or just general Twitter followers?  ‘Cos I’m still not seeing a power relationship for the latter.

Comment #198: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/13  at  08:19 PM

PIATOR, I’d say that if a person sends you unwanted materials (of any kind let’s say) once, that’s rude. A pattern of sending unwanted materials to the same person or multiple people could seem like harassment.

Comment #199: JulesAboutTown  on  06/13  at  08:27 PM

PIATOR, I’d say that if a person sends you unwanted materials (of any kind let’s say) once, that’s rude. A pattern of sending unwanted materials to the same person or multiple people could seem like harassment.

I’d say so too, but that’s “harassment” by our informal definition.

Comment #200: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  06/13  at  08:29 PM

This definition would imply that unsolicited sexual photoes in a casual context can’t be harassment, wouldn’t it?  It’s not job related, nor is it preventing an exercise of rights.  I assume that that’s a strict legal definition?

Yes, that’s the legal definition. Generally, for instance, street harassment that doesn’t rise to the level of a sexual assault (or at least an intentional infliction of emotional distress) is not actionable.

Now “harassment” can be used in a more casual context, and in that context, different people have different definitions. And I can’t really resolve those differences.

But my real point was there’s nothing wrong with reserving the term “sexual harassment” for the really egregious cases that can give rise to a jury verdict (and indeed there are important legal reasons why, for instance, not every stupid sexual comment in a workplace is considered sexual harassment), but what doesn’t fly is the argument that because something doesn’t meet the rather high bar to qualify as sexual harassment under the law, it can’t be inappropriate and troubling.

Comment #201: Dilan Esper  on  06/13  at  08:31 PM

#104 oldfeminist,
Regarding “consensual-who cares” well I dont think his wife would agree. She didnt consent to it and what he was doing wasnt appreciated by her. Not to mention but that seems like sheer excuse making. Isnt Amanda a journalist? Yet in spite of her occupation she still couldnt dig up what I lazily did about Weiner and his scandal days ago? I also havent found any support that any of the women he was sending lewd pictures to were consenting. That was a presumption built on a partisan foundation.

Comment #202: Bean Slap  on  06/13  at  08:52 PM

Gracchus,
Patriarchy IS rape culture. Quit trying to create a difference where none exists. I also find it stupid to suggest that men are just as negatively affected by rape culture as women. Men arent whistled at as they cross the street, raped anywhere as nearly as much as women, ect, ect. I think thats a stupid myth generated by gen x that I guess to them sounded good and felt good but certaintly isnt. Its just like the 50’s, did racism affect white people, sure, but it affected Black people worse.

Comment #203: Bean Slap  on  06/13  at  09:23 PM

Also BTW I would suggest that how a politcian does act in their private life does affect my perspective on their character and whether or not I’m going to vote for them. Newt Gingrich screwing his wife over when she was in the hospital-douchy move. If he hits her then to me that also affects my perspective. I’m pretty sure Weiners wife didnt approve of his lack of consent torwards the women so I’m pretty sure shes not happy about his behavior. These are public figures and they know this.

Comment #204: Bean Slap  on  06/13  at  09:25 PM

#175 gracchus,
You said “no” because youre a freakin guy in a patriarchy. Heres some male privilege youre gulping up now.

Comment #205: Bean Slap  on  06/13  at  09:29 PM

#186 broce,
Yeah I never got second wave as being anti-sex. I mean, wasnt this the time of one of Americas big sexual revolutions? Grocchus just prefers to see it that way so he can build his Aunt Sallys and feel he’s right all the time.

Comment #206: Bean Slap  on  06/13  at  09:35 PM

the masses,
But the media never make anything about consent. With the Klauss scandal theyre not even making it about consent. Thats not an excuse to deny the fact that it IS about consent even if the media dont pick up on it. If feminists dont push for that recognition who will?

Comment #207: Bean Slap  on  06/13  at  09:41 PM

....oh and I do think he should step down. There are other “Weiners” out there that can do just a good job if not better without the skeevy sexual harrassment issues….and the odd-sounding pun inducing name.

Comment #208: Bean Slap  on  06/13  at  09:44 PM

The only privilege that’s been stepped on is my ability to unilaterally end an on-line conversation that’s not going according to an agreed-upon agenda. Are you claiming that women don’t share that privilege?

You probably won’t stop pursuing that topic, that subject, that group of people.  Some guy starts talking about your ass and you think he’s the weirdo, the outcast, and you brush it off.

Women get BARRAGED with this shit all the time.  From men of all kinds all the time.  Street harassment.  Harassment in education.  Harassment at work.  Harassment everywhere she goes.  A woman in public is a woman who gets sexually harassed.  The response from a lot of people (like you):  What did you expect?

This just isn’t the case for men in all but a few professions (rock star, actor).  And it’s not being done to those men by women who are bigger, stronger, and scarier because of it.

You make it sound like we’re all new to being sexually harassed and just need you to tell us to ignore it.  We are way more used to it than you are.  Occasional harassment is really different from getting harassed all the time.  If it’s rare you think, that was fucked up.  If it’s common, it just grinds you down.

Comment #209: oldfeminist  on  06/13  at  10:58 PM

Pagan, I was fighting Sexual Harassment on the job and elsewhere in my personal life, probably before you were born, and certainly before the term had been coined. So let’s not pretend to teach your grandma how to suck eggs.

But the cry of “consent!!!!!!!!!!” in the Weiner case, came up after the battle cry of “he lied!!!!!!!!!!!!!” when that didn’t seem to do the job of getting (either Clinton impeached) or Weiner to resign.

It was a picture of a penis (or a penis in underwear), dunno I can’t be bothered on the fine points of a non-scandal)—not a rape case and you conflating the two is your own falsity strawman, nothing to do with me.

Vitter, who not only had nasty sex with prostitutes—and in the process, broke the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!—and lied his ass off at some point in the investigation, I’m sure—is still working that Republican agenda. Elliot Spitzer was hounded out of office.

Whether you (and the other “He lied!!!!!” or “Consent!!!!!!” criers) are Democratic Surrender Monkeys or Republican Opos Enablers matters not a whit—the effect is the same.

Fewer Democrats, more Republicans, more misery rained down on the populace from crazy shit Republican policy.

To which I don’t consent.

Comment #210: judybrowni  on  06/13  at  10:58 PM

Yes, Judy, which is why obviously a) I am a Republican and b) consent isn’t important if it’s people we like who aren’t requiring it.

That’s wonderfully feminist.  I’ve made it clear that it’s not about him resigning; it’s about everyone stopping the pretend game of this being just good, clean fun between two consenting adults.  It’s not.  I don’t give a shit how long you’ve been a feminist, that doesn’t give you the right to say that it’s just fine for dudes to wag their dicks at women online without bothering to find out if it’s at all welcome if the guys say nice enough things.  That is just not how it fucking works.

Comment #211: Atheist Feminazi  on  06/13  at  11:13 PM

I wish you wouldn’t use the term “schoolmarm.”  Teachers have enough problems right now without being conflated with censoriousness busybodyness.

Comment #212: Theresa  on  06/13  at  11:22 PM

#210 judy,
Just because you say youve been “fighting sexual harrassment”  before we were all born doesnt make you the end all be all authority on the subject. Clearly you are very ineffective since you dont even know what sexual harrassment is. What Weiner did was illegal the women he talked to just arent bringing charges up against him though they easily could. Its also down right perverted of you to try and claim that the only behavior which qualifies as non-consentual is rape. I think youve long ago retired your feminist card when you started putting partisan politics ahead of feminist principles. Its clear youre just as bad as the Repubs who ignore sexual impropriety for partisan winning than anything about principles. You reserve no right to criticise them since you are them.

Comment #213: Bean Slap  on  06/13  at  11:37 PM

#211 INTpagan,
Right, and on top of that when feminists dont speak up it cheapens our principles and makes us sound like were not serious….that were just sold-out partisan bickerers. It erodes our credibility and makes that fact vulnerable to exploitation to the opposition.

Comment #214: Bean Slap  on  06/13  at  11:42 PM

“My point is, we test consent (i.e. openness to a sexual encounter). Just as no-one’s “switch” is permanently set to one position or another, or indeed that it’s less a switch than a dimmer, no-one wears some sort of neon sign indicating where they’re at during a given moment. So people test. They flirt. They express interest.

So Weiner is attracted to this woman. He tests by trying to steer the conversation. He doesn’t get a response and tests again. And again. And again. And again. He sends a cock shot. He’s an inappropriate dope.”

This is why I’m convinced that flirting, to initiate a sexual relationship rather than as part of one already established, just fucking sucks. All sexualities socially established enough (i.e.: it’s relatively common and known/accepted in the mainstream, so vanilla and probably heterosexual/cis) to have a wide range of flirting behaviours they can normally rely on in place of you know, saying “I hope this isn’t out of line, but are you interested in me/discussing my dick/this sexual practice, etc.” outside of a specific situation that gives affirming context (a gay club, a BDSM lunch) are in danger of the downsides of flirting:

a) A person not being able to tell if you are doing it or not, or if you’re doing it towards a purpose (rather than just a harmless jibing, some do),  and thus not giving a definitive response until you’ve gone too far in, while the flirter misreads this as a positive signal;
b) The flirting being based on assumptions about sexual behaviour and preferences that you don’t know your target is into (this is why I can’t flirt or respond to flirting);
c) Other pitfalls like the dangers of flirting with a group of people when you’re interested in one in particular, etc.

To be honest, yes, we should act like everybody’s switch is off to sexy talk (this is different from assuming it is) before we first ask them if they’re interested. We know that it might be off or on, but we find out BEFORE the sexual activity, and sexual banter is no less subject to this than cock pics or sex itself. Why is it the girl’s responsibility to give a definitive yes/no, and no Weiner’s responsibility to ask a definitive question about whether she’s interested BEFORE the vague-ass flirting?

Comment #215: Treefinger  on  06/13  at  11:50 PM

I also havent found any support that any of the women he was sending lewd pictures to were consenting. That was a presumption built on a partisan foundation.
Comment #202: Bean Slap

The black jack dealer, for one, sexted with him and requested photos. Though I doubt every photo he sent her was a response to a specific request, for whatever that matters in the grand scheme.

#186 broce,
Yeah I never got second wave as being anti-sex. I mean, wasnt this the time of one of Americas big sexual revolutions? Grocchus just prefers to see it that way so he can build his Aunt Sallys and feel he’s right all the time.
Comment #206: Bean Slap on 06/13 at 09:35 PM

The second wave wasn’t anti-sex, it was anti hetero-male-only sex. Second-wavers are dismissed as “anti-sex” for having a problem with women’s sexual identities being defined and dictated by what men want.

But the media never make anything about consent. With the Klauss scandal theyre not even making it about consent. Thats not an excuse to deny the fact that it IS about consent even .“if “the media dont pick up on it. If feminists dont push for that recognition who will?
Comment #207: Bean Slap on 06/13 at 09:41 PM

Totally. Everything’s a titillating, lascivious “sex scandal.” Mutual consent never seems to matter, which is a highly disturbing indicator of what people generally think of as “sex.”

Comment #216: snobographer  on  06/14  at  12:57 AM

INTPagan, 44:

Do you assume that every woman you meet wants to see your junk until you have a statement to the negative?

If it’s legitimately congruent to the conversation, kinda. I at least consider the possibility. If I’m talking about sex with someone who wants to talk sex with me, it’s not a huge leap to think she might want to see a picture of my cock. I’m not going to say one shouldn’t ask first, but that’s a lesser issue.

Of course, in the case of the woman who kept doggedly trying to talk politics with the, um, politician, it was not legitimately congruent.

Gracchus, 58:

Although it is known as being a comfortable site for a particular type of progressive prude. While I’ll agree that it isn’t a site for conservative agitators, they are fond of their purges, tests of ideological purity, and the circular firing squads that inevitably result.

None of which makes Shakesville any less credible on the issue at hand.

Gracchus, 88:

Was his Congressional mojo so strong that it kept her in the chat, entranced until he went too far and showed her his dick?

Well, yeah. Somewhat. He may not have been the only person, or even the only well-informed person, she could have discussed politics with, but he was one of only 535 members of Congress, and how many of those 535 would chat with a member of the public, particularly a non-constituent? If I don’t want to put up with come-ons from some random idiot, I can ignore them. If I don’t want to put up with come-ons from my Congresswoman*, I have to cut off one of a finite number of paths to participation in the political process.

*Not heteronormativity; it’s Yvette Clarke.

oldfeminist, 138:

I am now trying to remember if there is *any* regular identified-male commenter here who hasn’t shown his dick, metaphorically, at some point.  Losing his shit when the bit of privilege he is particularly attached to gets stepped on, and refusing to learn from it.

No idea. But I’m not really in the best position to judge.

Now gimme a cookie.

Lindsay, 167:

Ginger the porn star, with whom he already had a consensual sexualized rapport, was right next to Geanette on his follower list. Twitter has auto-complete, so if you’re not paying attention, it’s easy to tweet the wrong person if their names start with the same letter. Every twitter user has probably done this at some point.

I thought the woman who said she got a non-consensual dick pic was different from the woman who would have gotten the dick pic that started all this if it hadn’t been deleted.

ibid:

Weiner doesn’t have a history of sending unwanted pictures to random women.

Even if true, that’s a little like Ben Stein’s remarks about Strauss-Kahn. Or, as Lenny Bruce said about skydiving, “every cat who’s done it never did it before.”

PiaToR, 197:

This definition would imply that unsolicited sexual photoes in a casual context can’t be harassment, wouldn’t it?  It’s not job related, nor is it preventing an exercise of rights.  I assume that that’s a strict legal definition?

It might be. And if we’re not willing to accept the legal definition of rape as delimiting the act of rape (and I’m certainly not), should we not do the same with sexual harassment?

Comment #217: Hershele Ostropoler  on  06/14  at  11:01 PM

“So curious now, Gracchus, I have to know…  does rape culture exist?  Yes or no.”
The new version of “How long have you been beating your wife?”

Comment #218: Smartpatrol  on  06/18  at  02:04 PM
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