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Next entry: Real vs. unreal Americans Previous entry: And this one’s for the readers

When your opponents have no compunction about lying….

You can’t do anything to appease their complaints.  Stupak and company may have been satisfied by dunking Obama’s head in the toilet until they obtained a symbolic gesture of woman-hating from him that they and we know he doesn’t mean, but let’s face it.  Those fools are useful idiots being played by those on the right who exploited their stupidity and misogyny in order to delay the bill.  Hard-core anti-choicers know that it’s never about abortion, not really.  Abortion is a scare word that you use to reinforce social hierarchies.  Traditionally, you can use it to oppress women, but now they’re branching out—-using the word to oppress women of color specifically by attacking their access to a whole slate of health care services and of course, using it to attack non-rich people in general by using it in an attempt to stop health care reform.  And when you find a tool of oppression so useful, you’re not going to stop using it just because your opposition caves to your overt demands.  No way!  You’re going to lie and say they didn’t.  And you’re going to demand more.

Exhibit #1: Ross Douthat, who wrote a largely incoherent bit of whining that he tried to dress up as intellectual musing on those silly liberals who think they know stuff about health care.  There is a great deal of bullshit in this op-ed to wade through, but I’m just going to focus on one particular throwaway lie he tells:

It will shed light, as well, on all other promises that piled up as the health care vote drew near — that the bill, its implicit abortion subsidies notwithstanding, will actually reduce the abortion rate, as T.R. Reid argued last week in the Washington Post; that it will create 400,000 new jobs “almost immediately,” as Pelosi recently claimed; that it will become more popular once implemented, as every Democrat insists; and so on through an array of happy possibilities.

Emphasis mine.  Douthat hides it better than most, but he accepts the illogical anti-choice argument that abortion rates cannot be reduced by reducing unintended pregnancy rates.  The reasoning behind this seems to be nothing more than taking offense at the idea of an “unintended” pregnancy, which implies women have intentions and motives worth giving a shit about, instead of seeing women strictly as baby baskets. So they’re forced to assume abortion providers try to find pregnant women and bully them into abortion, or that pregnant women that would otherwise be glowing with the joy of doing the one thing women are good for are instead being frog-marched into clinics by the men who knocked them up.  If you accept that women can in fact have motivations and desires, then it’s obvious that contraception use can prevent abortion.  And that the lack of contraception access for poor women neatly explains why they end up in abortion clinics way more often than women with the means to afford contraception.  And that extending access to those women will prevent more unintended pregnancies, and therefore abortions. 

But the idea that we can’t take women’s intentions into account when talking about abortion is merely a sideshow assumption here.  What Douthat is really doing is what I predicted anti-choicers would try to do—-move the argument from abortion to contraception, and seek ways to argue that the health care exchange needs to forbid coverage not only for abortion, but also contraception and possibly all reproductive health services. (Though maybe they’ll tip the “compassionate” conservative hat enough to allow poor women to obtain prenatal care.  Women may not be people, but the offspring created by mighty male sperm deserve consideration.)  And they intend to do this by redefining everything gynecologists do as “abortion”.  Birth control, cancer screening, fertility testing, STD treatment and testing, anything you can think of that your gyno does?  Abortion. And considering that many family doctors provide abortion, I think they may be angling to suggest all health care spending at all is abortion. 


The excuse for this lie is kind of complicated.  Luckily, Fox News actually explained the underlying argument for us, as I recorded on the podcast.  “Implicit funding” of abortion means paying for any service that winds up going to the coffers of people who provide abortion.  So, for instance.  I go to an ob-gyn who provides abortion, and I get a Pap smear and a re-up on my birth control pills.  The final bill is $250, of which I provide a $25 co-pay.  The insurance company pays the rest, and it goes into an account the doctor’s office uses to pay for itself.  Then woman after me has an abortion.  She pays $500 cash, because her insurance won’t cover abortion under the new health care laws.  The doctor needs $750 for rent (keeping it simple), so the $225 paid by my insurance company is OMG ABORTION MONEY. 

Douthat has in fact tried to float this argument before, arguing that everything Planned Parenthood does is basically abortion.  His arguments are disingenuous, of course.  He’s not attacking abortion and sadly shrugging that contraception is unfortunate collateral damage.  He’s out to get contraception—-at least the use of it by women he disapproves of, including young women, single women, and any women who can’t pay for it (and the doctor’s visit to get the prescription) out of pocket—-and abortion is just a convenient cover story.  Douthat has famously written before about how women who are on the pill because they assume they might have sex in the future disgust him with their sluttiness.  That disgust is coming through loud and clear in his desire to make contraception services and possibly all gynecological care an expensive luxury that can only be afforded by women whose wealth and marital status purifies their gross female sexuality.  Women like his wife or his friend’s wives, no doubt.

The use of abortion in this debate has been about amplifying the classism and racism behind the opposition to universal health care, by adding a dose of grossing people out about female sexuality.  It’s the linguistic equivalent of tying tampons to the bill itself, so people will freak out and not want to touch it.  Conservatives are trying to position the word “abortion” like tampons (I mean clean, new ones—-of course used ones are gross) exist in our physical world of taboos.  Whatever it touches becomes contaminated by the association.  So if a doctor provides abortion, every thing he does becomes unclean.  It’s like those old Biblical laws that commanded women who were menstruating not to touch anything else that clean, pure men might use.  If they find this is working, expect that not only will women’s health services all become too unclean to fund in their eyes, but all medical care will become unclean by association.  They’re desperate to cause people to have visceral disgust reactions, because logical argument against reform aren’t working, if they ever existed to begin with. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:03 AM • (54) Comments

I have a friend at work who is anti-abortion but not anti-choice.  Yes, such people exist.  How can you tell the difference?  She is absolutely thrilled that the healthcare bill finally passed because now women will be able to afford contraception to avoid an unwanted pregnancy, plus there’s all of the extra money for prenatal care.

It’s douches like Douthat who “love” babies so much that they want us to continue having the second-highest infant mortality rate* in the industrialized world.  People who are actually interested in actual babies actually being healthy have been clamoring for healthcare reform for a very long time.

* Only Slovakia has a worse infant mortality rate than us.  Best healthcare system in the world, motherfuckers.

Comment #1: Mnemosyne  on  03/22  at  11:15 AM

Douthat doesn’t want to reduce abortion.  He simply wants to make sure that women who have abortions are punished sufficiently for doing so, whether it’s death, injury, or just the hardship of using grocery money to pay for it.  So long as women are punished for having sex, or even just being part of a group that contains women who have sex (which is every woman), he doesn’t care anything at all about the precious embryos.

Comment #2: bananacat  on  03/22  at  11:32 AM

He’s still trying to punish that liberated woman from back in college, isn’t he?  Only, he’s learned to disguise it better, as Amanda indicates.

I’ll tell you what money is ‘dirty’ - it’s the money that pays monstrosities like Douthat and his misogynistic ilk for their professional witch-hunting.

Comment #3: News Nag  on  03/22  at  11:42 AM

Dead-on cogent analysis, as always, Amanda.

Comment #4: PhysioProf  on  03/22  at  11:56 AM

I have a friend at work who is anti-abortion but not anti-choice.  Yes, such people exist.

No, this doesn’t work. Available, safe abortions are one of the choices in comprehensive women’s healthcare. To be “anti-abortion” is think women’s choices should be restricted.

Comment #5: Olivia  on  03/22  at  12:02 PM

The doctor needs $750 for rent (keeping it simple), so the $225 paid by my insurance company is OMG ABORTION MONEY.

One of the hallmarks that distinguish Know-Nothings from neoCons and MoneyCons is that they’re too stupid to grasp the concept of fungibility when it comes to money.

If he wasn’t using this disingenuous argument as a cover for his real agenda of misogyny, a Catholic fundie like Douthat (or our poor man’s version, Dana) might grasp the concept if we explained, in similar terms, that money put on the Sunday collection plate is ultimately “child molester money.”

Comment #6: Gracchus.  on  03/22  at  12:03 PM

Most people absorb sex negativity from our culture to some degree.  Which means you get a lot of “mixed” people on reproductive rights.  Some say, “Oh, I’m pro-choice, but you shouldn’t use it for birth control,” which is a way of saying that it’s good for the right kind of sex, but bad if you’re slutty.  And people who are pro-contraception but anti-abortion fall on the same spectrum.

Comment #7: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/22  at  12:05 PM

“Dead-on cogent analysis, as always, Amanda.” - PhysioProf

Agreed - I couldn’t say it any better so I copied.

Comment #8: Phil Philiben  on  03/22  at  12:19 PM

You really got a cogent psychological argument here. Congratulations!

Comment #9: atheist  on  03/22  at  12:31 PM

I have a friend at work who is anti-abortion but not anti-choice.  Yes, such people exist.

No, this doesn’t work. Available, safe abortions are one of the choices in comprehensive women’s healthcare. To be “anti-abortion” is think women’s choices should be restricted.

Depends on what kind of anti- you are. It’s still possible to think something is a bad idea or even morally wrong without thinking that it should be outlawed or even restricted. We’ve been bombarded by so many anti-choice jerkwads speaking in bad faith that it’s hard to remember that.

I think that not tipping waitstaff, or tipping just a small amount of change, is generally wrong, and bespeaks someone who I wouldn’t like to be around. But I think it should be legal.

Comment #10: paul  on  03/22  at  12:34 PM

No, this doesn’t work. Available, safe abortions are one of the choices in comprehensive women’s healthcare. To be “anti-abortion” is think women’s choices should be restricted.

I guess we differ, then, because I don’t think that abortion is, in and of itself, a good.  It’s a necessity, but not a good.  Abortion is surgery—minor surgery, but surgery nonetheless.  I think we’re all better off if people can avoid having to have surgery on a regular basis.  Even RU-486 requires follow-up visits and an ultrasound to make sure no complications arise.

Lindsay Beyerstein compares abortion to a root canal, and she’s right.  No one wants to have a root canal.  No one wakes up in the morning and goes, “Wow—I get to have a root canal today!  This is the best day ever!”  (Well, except this guy.)  You get a root canal because you need one, not because you want one.

You can think that something is a medical necessity without thinking that it’s an intrinsically good thing.  If it becomes necessary for a diabetic to have a foot or leg amputated because it’s gangrenous, is that an intrinsically good thing?

Comment #11: Mnemosyne  on  03/22  at  12:37 PM

I have a friend at work who is anti-abortion but not anti-choice.  Yes, such people exist.  How can you tell the difference?

Depends, of course, on what one means by “choice” and “abortion”.  So far as I understand “choice”, in this context, it does usually mean “abortion”.  I’m hard-pressed to imagine anyone I might know that could be anti-birth control (certainly, no one has ever expressed such a sentiment to me in real life), but abortions, especially in the context of well along pregnancies and the like (and context here may be important, I’m Canadian, and the availability of abortions is unrestricted by law, though in practice availability of say, clinics isn’t always there, and if you were about to give birth and wanted an abortion because you didn’t want the child, you’d almost certainly be unable to find a doctor willing to provide an abortion, etc.) can get people to react differently.  There’re going to be a host of people who’re in the “a fertilised egg is not a person camp”, who’re not in the “it’s the journey down the birth canal that turns lumps of flesh into people” camp.  So far as I understand it, the main division in when Americans can get abortions is based on trying to codify the point of transition.  In practice, the “can you find a doctor who’ll give you the abortion?” criterion that ends up setting the limitations in Canada seems as good as any (where it’s not limited by things like you living 1000 km from a place where surgeries can be performed), but it’s not surprising that in what’s essentially a gradual transition from “single cell that no reasonable person identifies as human” to “fully formed human that everyone agrees deserves protection and rights”, where the line gets drawn by different people is different (and that most people have a gray zone where they’re uncomfortable either way).

Comment #12: Brian  on  03/22  at  12:38 PM

I guess we differ, then, because I don’t think that abortion is, in and of itself, a good.  It’s a necessity, but not a good

Show me where I said abortion is good.

It’s still possible to think something is a bad idea or even morally wrong without thinking that it should be outlawed or even restricted.

You just defined being pro-choice. When people say “I’m pro-choice” there is no need to qualify it with “but not for X”. Anything after “I’m pro-choice” is extra information that is not necessary.

Comment #13: Olivia  on  03/22  at  12:45 PM

You can think that something is a medical necessity without thinking that it’s an intrinsically good thing.

Then you’re not talking about someone who’s truly “anti-abortion,” any more than you could talk about someone who’s “anti-root-canal” or “anti-chemotherapy.” Religious fantasists excepted, people don’t generally categorise medical necessities and procedures into the domain of something they’re for or against—they’re all miserable procedures that are none-the-less helpful in preventing worse problems.

Which brings us back to a recurring point of this blog: the focus shouldn’t be on a medical procedure, but on the choice to avail oneself of it. “Anti-abortion” and “pro-abortion” are both nonsensical terms.

Comment #14: Gracchus.  on  03/22  at  12:48 PM

I think it is possible to believe that women shouldn’t choose to have abortions, but believe that it should still be her choice.  I strongly disagree with that attitude, but it does exist, and it’s a little better than the anti-choicers who are actively trying to make laws to ban abortion.  It doesn’t help anything to perpetuate the false dichotomy of either protecting women’s rights or worshiping embryos.  People who are anti-abortion but pro-choice tend to be more reasonable (I know because I used to be one of them), and they’re easier to get through to.  I could give many examples of thing that I think people shouldn’t choose to do, but that should not be banned or outlawed.  I won’t give any specific examples because I don’t want to trivialize the issue of abortion, but it’s wrong to think that people should want everything to be illegal that they think people shouldn’t do.

There are more than two simple groups of people on this issue, and it’s not effective to treat different viewpoints as being exactly the same just because we disagree with both of them.

Comment #15: bananacat  on  03/22  at  01:00 PM

Women may not be people, but the offspring created by mighty male sperm deserve consideration

you know what?  I think that forced gestationists really believe in the [url=“http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Preformation.GIF/”]
preformation homunculi[/url] .

A poor little sperm is growing in that womb!  It must be protected!  It’s that sperm’s right to live and grow and subjugate that woman.  It’s a woman’s duty to devote her very life to supporting that little living sperm-man!

Now, once there’s a birth, it’s a baby, maybe even a GIRL baby, and then it’s a mouth to feed and it just better get around to pulling itself up by its bootstraps b/c it sure doesn’t deserve any socialistic-marxist-commie support!

See?  Live people?  Utterly worthless unless they’re rich and GOP theocratic authoritarians.  Homunculi?  Adorable pre-rich theocratic authoritarian beings.  Babies and women?  Messy, gross, and chunky.  They should be kept out of sight and mind until called for to do their duty of gestating.

(Just in case my html-fu fails, homunculi image link: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/Preformation.GIF  )

Comment #16: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/22  at  01:04 PM

Damn

Comment #17: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/22  at  01:05 PM

The problem with a lot of pro-choice but anti-abortion (rather than just plain anti-choice pro-dead-women) people is that restrictions on abortion don’t seem to be a big deal to them. If there aren’t any clinics in 200 miles, or there’s a 24-hour waiting period or a spousal and parental notification requirement, that doesn’t bother them too much. Sorta like the libertarians who think pollution is OK because if you don’t like it you can just move somewhere unpolluted.

Comment #18: paul  on  03/22  at  01:06 PM

I think it is possible to believe that women shouldn’t choose to have abortions, but believe that it should still be her choice.

See, I think that sort of ‘thinking’ is indicative of someone who simply hasn’t done much thinking at all. 

Women shouldn’t choose abortions?

What if her life is endangered by the pregnancy?  What if the baby has no chance to live?  What if she used contraception and it failed.  What if she were raped?  What if the baby is handicapped?  What if her future fertility is impaired by continuing this pregnancy?

When is it “okay” for women to choose? 

People who say they think women shouldn’t choose abortions are imagining women who are slutty mcslut sluts who have sex with dozens of men and don’t bother with any form of birth control other than abortions, which they have willy-nilly and for fun.

In reality, true sex education and free contraception would go a long way to stopping the straw-abortion-loving-mcslut.  And when it’s real medical conditions, most people immediately back off, since they would never want someone intruding on their own private decisions.

When you bring up real situations, people who think ‘women just shouldn’t get abortions’ tend to side on the choice side, b/c of course they didn’t mean those (i.e., real) women shouldn’t choose the best option for them.  They mean those OTHER women.  The ones that don’t know sex leads to babies.  The ones who just don’t want to ruin their figures or be inconvenienced.

Comment #19: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/22  at  01:13 PM

Douthat’s married???
ew

Comment #20: Isabella  on  03/22  at  01:17 PM

Which brings us back to a recurring point of this blog: the focus shouldn’t be on a medical procedure, but on the choice to avail oneself of it. “Anti-abortion” and “pro-abortion” are both nonsensical terms.

And yet, when you take the focus off of the medical procedure it becomes very easy to pretend that abortions aren’t health care, and thus shouldn’t be covered by health insurance. It’s a nasty catch-22.

Comment #21: rivki  on  03/22  at  01:29 PM

@19: The only women I’ve heard of not knowing sex leads to babies are fundies’ kids whose parents deliberately keep them in the dark about pretty much everything. Fergawdsake, how are your kids supposed to know what not to do if you don’t tell them a few details??? (Yes, a high school aged girl didn’t know exactly where babies came from and had sex with her boyfriend without knowing sweet FA about birth control or even that THAT is how you lose your virginity. Luckily for her a friend educated her about condoms before the worst happened.)

Comment #22: Yawgmoth  on  03/22  at  01:32 PM

And yet, when you take the focus off of the medical procedure it becomes very easy to pretend that abortions aren’t health care, and thus shouldn’t be covered by health insurance. It’s a nasty catch-22.

Except that you’re not really taking the focus off the medical procedure—you’re just classifying abortion with chemo and root canals and all the many other unpleasant but necessary health care procedures. The burden on anti-choicers then becomes one of demonstrating why abortion is a special case of unethical (as opposed to immoral) medicine.

Let’s take Mnem’s friend, and assume that she doesn’t like abortion because it’s a miserable, intrusive procedure. Fair enough, so do I. I don’t think any sane person would voluntarily submit to what’s generally understood to be a medical treatment of last resort. Cookies for all!

I feel the same way about chemo, so let’s be “generous” and assume she does, too. Let’s balance out that generosity with the counter-factual that Mnem’s friend is anti-choice. Would her logical conclusion then be that chemo (and other miserable, intrusive procedures) also shouldn’t be covered by health insurance? Take the focus off the specific medical procedure, and the Catch-22 is the anti-choicers’ problem to handle.

The problem, as Amanda states clearly, is that anti-choicers have absolutely no compunction about lying, or framing the issue using meaningless terms. When someone says “oh, I’m anti-abortion” then make the ridiculous assertion “oh, then you must be anti-chemotherapy, too.” At that point, they’re forced to agree or clarify or display their misogyny and fantasism, placing the focus back where it belongs: on reproductive (and medical) choice.

If the pro-choice side wants to get anywhere, we have to stop playing by our opponents’ intellectually dishonest rules, and insist that the MSM also stop.

Comment #23: Gracchus.  on  03/22  at  01:58 PM

OT for Caren:  use the standard HTML “a href=” tags instead of the square-bracket “bbcode” style tags, and what you tried to do would have worked.

Shorter OP:  Ross Douthat proves for the umpteenth time that he’s a douchebag.

Comment #24: liberalrob  on  03/22  at  02:06 PM

If the pro-choice side wants to get anywhere, we have to stop playing by our opponents’ intellectually dishonest rules, and insist that the MSM also stop.

This, b/c the MSM already acts as if everyone knows abortion is immoral and wrong and that it really shouldn’t be legal except that maybe, once, somebody was “brutally” raped, and that one other time when someone was a victim of incest.

Stupak’s position, and his championing of the US Bishops’ Conference was treated as NORMAL and unexceptional and MORAL, when actually it was about the most anti-American valued act I’ve ever seen from a Democrat.

Comment #25: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/22  at  02:08 PM

OT, liberal rob, I didn’t type what it shows up there.  I did use “a href=”.  I used greater and less than brackets, not square brackets.  The square brackets and ‘url’ showed up after the blaspheming.

Html just hates me.

Comment #26: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/22  at  02:13 PM

The Douthats of the world are all about the “ick” factor. Women are icky. They bleed, and blood is icky. And even when they aren’t bleeding down in their lady bits, there’s still mucus and stuff. It’s all icky, and they don’t want to have to deal with icky stuff, so women shouldn’t have the right to have all their icky bits covered by insurance. It’s basically the same rationale as opposition to gay rights. These idiots think two men having sex is icky, so gay people shouldn’t have the right to exist, since their very existence makes idiots think about icky things.

There are people who have learned to hide their ick factor reasoning with all sorts of levels of more socially-accepted arguments, but when you peel away all the layers, it still comes down to ick.

Comment #27: Phoebe Fay  on  03/22  at  02:15 PM

There are people who have learned to hide their ick factor reasoning with all sorts of levels of more socially-accepted arguments, but when you peel away all the layers, it still comes down to ick. - Phoebe Fay

Actually, IIRC, Leon Kass has all but said “if I find it icky, it must be immoral”.

In fact, I actually know people of Douthat’s mindset: their homophobia very much flows from their dislike of lady-bits.  They find lady-bits to be “icky” (after all blood and mucus are both icky), and, at some level, they are jealous of gay men because gay men can experience sexual pleasure without any lady-bits being involved.  Because they personally are not attracted to men (or, even if they are, they feel that they cannot, within the confines of their cherished faith communities, explore that aspect of themselves), they just get upset about how gays are able to avoid the “divine order of things” whereby, in order to gain sexual pleasure, men have to deal with lady bits.  So they figure gays are “cheating” and thus deserve approbation.

Comment #28: DAS  on  03/22  at  02:33 PM

No one wakes up in the morning and goes, “Wow—I get to have a root canal today!  This is the best day ever!”

Hmm, this is Fail, in my opinion.

If I’ve been hurting badly and a root canal is the way out of that pain, you betcha I’m going to be happy about the root canal. I may not be happy that the root canal will be painful and unpleasant - I may want the root canal procedure to be less painful and more pleasant, but I will definitely be happy that the root canal has occured.

There are (and always will be) women who are happy and relieved to have abortions.

You can think that something is a medical necessity without thinking that it’s an intrinsically good thing.

What kind of statement is this? I think that ANY necessary medical procedure is “intrinsically good” to have in our collective medical toolkit, including abortions. If I had a pregnancy complication that required an abortion, you can bet I’d be plenty happy to have that abortion available - I would be sad about the cause of the problem, not the solution to it (ie, abortion).

All this smacks of the straw-man that “pro-choice = pro-abortion = mandatory abortions every third Friday”. Weird.

Comment #29: Essie Elephant  on  03/22  at  02:59 PM

There are more than two simple groups of people on this issue, and it’s not effective to treat different viewpoints as being exactly the same just because we disagree with both of them.

Apparently not, judging by the number of people in this thread who have decided that people who think that abortion is morally wrong even if they don’t want it outlawed are The Enemy.

Silly me, here I thought we should make an effort to win over the “morally wrong but not illegal” crowd to help us reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies so we could reduce the abortion rate, but apparently they are The Enemy and no better than the forced birthers who want to make birth control illegal.

Comment #30: Mnemosyne  on  03/22  at  03:31 PM

There are (and always will be) women who are happy and relieved to have abortions.

There are diabetics who are happy and relieved to have their leg amputated so they don’t die from gangrene.  Does that mean we shouldn’t try to prevent them from getting to the point where they need an amputation because they’re going to be so happy once they get one?

Comment #31: Mnemosyne  on  03/22  at  03:35 PM

Women may not be people, but the offspring created by mighty male sperm deserve consideration

HA! It is to laugh. Are you serious? Some of those offspring are BROWN. We can’t possibly extend care to potential brown people. Where do you think you are, Canada?

Comment #32: Well, what?  on  03/22  at  03:57 PM

“See?  Live people?  Utterly worthless unless they’re rich and GOP theocratic authoritarians.”

If you aren’t a male, rich, Republican theocratic authoritarian you are unworthy of life.  I wonder what a society would be like where they followed through on that simple “truth”...?

Comment #33: MikeEss  on  03/22  at  04:12 PM

There are (and always will be) women who are happy and relieved to have abortions.

Um, do you really think they would not be HAPPIER and MORE RELIEVED to not get unintentionally pregnant in the first place?

The point is not that for some women, abortion is a relief. The point is that avoiding the need for an abortion entirely would be an exponentially greater relief. Because the woman who intentionally gets pregnant so as to abort does not exist, any more than the person who intentionally inflicts a cavity so as to have a root canal.

Comment #34: Well, what?  on  03/22  at  04:16 PM

Silly me, here I thought we should make an effort to win over the “morally wrong but not illegal” crowd to help us reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies so we could reduce the abortion rate, but apparently they are The Enemy and no better than the forced birthers who want to make birth control illegal.

I would agree with you, but this friend of yours is pro-choice. Have you bought in to the conservative frame that liberals like to have abortion parties or something?

Anyway, what percentage of the population is this? If you look at the Gallup survey of people who think abortion is wrong as a subset of those who think it should be banned (or the opposite) it is like 90%.

Those people you refer to are rare, or if they exist, they don’t think about the issue all that har.

Comment #35: bay of arizona  on  03/22  at  04:30 PM

Apparently not, judging by the number of people in this thread who have decided that people who think that abortion is morally wrong even if they don’t want it outlawed are The Enemy.

To be clear, I don’t think they’re The Enemy, but their bold moral proclamations aren’t particularly helpful to the pro-choice side, either. Their personal opinions of the immorality of a medical procedure have no relevance to a serious policy debate over reproductive choice, any more than an anti-choicers’ do. The only side these useless opinions benefit, even unintentionally, is the anti-choice one.

Your friend is pro-choice. That’s all we care about. But if she wants to additionally blather on about the immorality of a medical procedure, she should understand that she’s not helping the pro-choice movement.

Silly me, here I thought we should make an effort to win over the “morally wrong but not illegal” crowd crowd to help us reduce the number of unplanned pregnancies so we could reduce the abortion rate

If they agree that abortion should be legally available despite their moral qualms, I’m comfortable with the assumption that they’ll also agree that the “lesser sin” of contraception should be legally available as well.

To use your example, suppose someone found the amputation procedure immoral (which, as others have mentioned, is really a roundabout way of saying “icky”) but thought it should none-the-less be legal. Do you think it would be a major push to convince that person that less icky/immoral treatments for diabetes meant to forestall the last resort of amputation should also be legal?

Comment #36: Gracchus.  on  03/22  at  04:41 PM

To be clear, I don’t think they’re The Enemy, but their bold moral proclamations aren’t particularly helpful to the pro-choice side, either. Their personal opinions of the immorality of a medical procedure have no relevance to a serious policy debate over reproductive choice, any more than an anti-choicers’ do.

Well said. And now that this point has been repeated a few times, lets see if it has sunk in yet for the “Not for me, but fine for thee” pro-choice folks.

Comment #37: Olivia  on  03/22  at  05:11 PM

preformation homunculi

I like that word, “homunculi.”  Plural of homunculus.  Do you think if you called Ross Douthat a homunculus, he’d have any idea whether he was being insulted or not?  (According to Wikipedia, it is Latin for “little human;” and Douthat is indeed very, very small.)

Comment #38: liberalrob  on  03/22  at  05:18 PM

”(According to Wikipedia, it is Latin for “little human;” and Douthat is indeed very, very small.)”

...and apparently he gets even smaller if “Chunky Reese Witherspoon” tells him she’s on The Pill…

Comment #39: MikeEss  on  03/22  at  05:20 PM

Yes, that was a test for Caren.  Try using the Preview, if it looks OK in Preview I think it should go through for you.  You may have had the link text mixed in with the href somehow and freaked out the software.  Weird that it decided to print bbcode though…cool, but weird.

Comment #40: liberalrob  on  03/22  at  05:24 PM

You can think that something is a medical necessity without thinking that it’s an intrinsically good thing.

I don’t see how.  I think the existence of root canals, heart stents, brain surgery, etc. are very good things because they fill a need.  The word “good” is meaningless if we have to exclude the general category of “things that fill important human needs”.  Love is good.  Food is good.  Clean air is good.  Access to necessary medical care is good.

Comment #41: Amanda Marcotte  on  03/22  at  05:31 PM

The thing about every reasonable or person who claims to be “anti-abortion” or “pro-life” is that when pressed with actual details, they will back off and tell you that they can’t judge a particular situation.  They are judging a straw-woman gettng a straw-abortion but they don’t have the cruelty in their hearts to use their rhetorical veto pen on a specific abortion in a specific situation.  I usually use myself as an example and ask them “if I were to get pregnant now, would you allow me an abortion?”  Drives them nuts when you try to force an answer from them.  They don’t want it to be so PERSONAL and I just want to crack their heads open and inject the understanding that ON THIS TOPIC IT CAN BE NOTHING BESIDES PERSONAL. 

When you pass judgement on this imainary person in your head and then speak that judgement aloud, it falls on real women with real circumstances and I (for one) tend to get defensive.  People (especially men) get all baffled when they are holding forth on the abstractions of hypothetical abotion and how oh-so-sad and immoral it is and my natural reaction is “You don’t KNOW ME!” but it makes complete and perfect sense from a heterosexual woman’s perspective.  Any Het Woman who has given the topic abortion any thought know that they may need it some day.  The fact that I have sex with my lawfully wedded husband while too broke to pay for day care puts me right in the line of fire when judgement is passed on these imaginary college party girls.

Comment #42: GumbyAnne  on  03/22  at  05:37 PM

Not that college party girls are any less deserving of reproductive rights than me, but I feel like it does some good to remind the anti’s that women like me are (non-sluts!) are just as likely to need an abortion.

Comment #43: GumbyAnne  on  03/22  at  05:43 PM

I like that word, “homunculi.” Plural of homunculus.

It’s a great word. In Woody Allen’s Manhattan, the Diane Keaton character keeps going on and on to the Woody Allen character about her ex-husband Jeremiah’s manliness and sexual mastery. Eventually, they run into the man himself, portrayed by Wallace Shawn. After he leaves them, Woody is stunned:

MARY (Diane Keaton): God, what a surprise. I can’t get over it—my ex-husband. And he really does look a lot thinner. He looks great!

ISAAC (Woody Allen): You certainly fooled me. I was shocked, ‘cause that’s *not* what I expected.

MARY: What did you expect?

ISAAC: I don’t know. You had always led me to ... you said he was a ladies’ man, that he opened you up sexually.

MARY: So? So?

ISAAC: Then this little ... homunculus, you know…
 
MARY: He’s quite devastating.

Comment #44: Gracchus.  on  03/22  at  05:43 PM

“Stupak and company may have been satisfied by dunking Obama’s head in the toilet until they obtained a symbolic gesture of woman-hating from him that they and we know he doesn’t mean”

Seriously? Oh, come ON!!! Stupak and Obama are on the SAME SIDE. They’ve been running the “good cop/bad cop” routine - oldest trick in the book. They were wildly successful. We’ve been had. We’re a bunch of suckers. The sooner we admit it, the sooner we can redeem ourselves. We’re only making it worse by continuing to believe their crap. Let’s get real.

Obama was never pro-choice. This, if nothing else, proves it. He’s outed himself at last. How do “we know he didn’t mean it”? Did he apologize? snort.

quit making excuses for him already this is ridiculous.

Comment #45: liviaclaudia  on  03/22  at  07:51 PM

I think right wing males are addicted to being “objective”.  That means they need objects.  Subjects simply will not do.  Hard science concerns objects.  Soft science concerns subjects.  How to kill the minds of women so that they are no longer subjects but turn into objects?  This is the pressing concern of the right wing male today.  If they are too much subjects, they are guilty of stealing his objectivity.  Something has to be done to eradicate them.

Comment #46: scratchy888  on  03/22  at  09:01 PM

Thanks, liberal rob, but I think I’m just going to let my inner Republican out and claim that the Pandagon blaspheme button is a CHEATER and UNAMERICAN and a <strike>BABY</strike>LINK KILLER and completely UNDEMOCRATIC and IMMORAL and GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL.

Comment #47: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  03/22  at  09:40 PM

Babykiller is, of course, juxtaposed against the ad to the right which describes the deplorable US infant mortality rate due, in part, to care access restrictions.

Comment #48: Ms Kate  on  03/22  at  10:45 PM

Re: “Anti-abortion but not anti-choice” and derivatives thereof- who cares? “Anti-abortion but” is a bullshit caveat that means “My reasoning is morally superior”, or “I will never have an abortion” or “It’s important to me that you know I am A) religious B) care very very much about babies and/or C) think abortion is wrong but won’t impose my personal worldview on millions of womens’ bodies isn’t that terribly generous of me?”.

So? Not one woman who has had, is having or will have an abortion gives one flying fuck about anybody’s tortured semantic rationalizations. If you’re pro-choice, be pro-choice. Vote pro-choice. There’s no auditor with a clipboard making sure that you preface your beliefs with straw-slut, baby-lovin boo-hooing before you’re allowed to be in favor of choice.

Comment #49: mir  on  03/22  at  11:22 PM

There are diabetics who are happy and relieved to have their leg amputated so they don’t die from gangrene.  Does that mean we shouldn’t try to prevent them from getting to the point where they need an amputation because they’re going to be so happy once they get one?

I don’t think anyone said that we should stop trying to prevent uninteded pregnancy. But given that it DOES still happen, its totally reasonable to be happy and relieved that there is a safe and simple procedure to terminate a pregnancy. (Yes, there could be complications, but its safer than actually going through with the pregnancy, so the word safe fits).

Um, do you really think they would not be HAPPIER and MORE RELIEVED to not get unintentionally pregnant in the first place?

Of course they’d be happier not to get pregnant, if unintended pregnancy was the reason for the abortion. But that isn’t always the reason. What about a woman who finds out after getting pregnant that she has a heart condition and childbirth is a far greater risk to her life than she thought? Or someone who finds they need chemo and can’t have it while pregnant and doesn’t want to risk waiting several months while the cancer grows? Or someone who finds out their fetus/baby has a severe health problem that is, as they say, incompatible with life (skull didn’t close, etc)? There are people who WANTED to get pregnant and then find out that for whatever reason, the best choice for them is still to have an abortion. They won’t be happy to be in this situation, but they’ll be happy and relieved that they have a choice to get out of the situation.

And yes, I’m sure they’d be happier to just never have anything go wrong in the first place, but its not practical to insist that that can always be the case. We could actually prevent 99% of all unwanted pregnancies if everyone used birth control of some sort, but we still don’t have the technology to prevent all cancer, deformities, heart conditions, etc. And its also unlikely that we’ll ever prevent all rapes.

Comment #50: geogami  on  03/23  at  12:59 AM

I had the pleasure of hearing T.R. Reid speak in one of my classes.  He is correct about abortion rates., Douthat should do a little research.  Countries that have universal healthcare do have lower abortion rates, because they offer many options in reproductive health - before pregnancy.  They encourage birth control instead of demonizing it. They also don’t abandon the fetus after it’s born. Education is an amazing thing.  In some European countries, having sex without protection is considered uncool.  But, as one republican Congressman said long ago when confronted with statistics, “Values trumps data.”  How do you argue with that?
    And I highly recommend Reid’s book, “The Healing of America.”  It explains what other countries’ healthcare systems really entail.  It is based on fact, not all the bullshit that is spewed about socialist healthcare.

Comment #51: kathequa  on  03/23  at  04:12 AM

Amanda wrote: “Conservatives are trying to position the word “abortion” like tampons (I mean clean, new ones—-of course used ones are gross)”

You made me choke of laughter with that one.

Comment #52: Bernard SG  on  03/23  at  05:37 AM

I actually half-expected someone to get huffy and claim the used ones weren’t gross.  Happily suprised to be wrong so far.

Comment #53: helen w. h.  on  03/23  at  09:01 AM

Wait. So root-canals occur because of sex and only to women? Really? Wow. All this time, I’ve been misled.

As far as anti-abortion people yammering on about how immoral it is, well, then to me they’re saying that some of my friends are immoral, casual, sluts, and that any clump of cells is more alive than they are, because women are slutty sluts. If they don’t attach a moral value to root canals, then they’re just trying to justify sexism.

Comment #54: ginmar  on  03/23  at  05:50 PM

Wait. So root-canals occur because of sex and only to women? Really? Wow. All this time, I’ve been misled.

As far as anti-abortion people yammering on about how immoral it is, well, then to me they’re saying that some of my friends are immoral, casual, sluts, and that any clump of cells is more alive than they are, because women are slutty sluts. If they don’t attach a moral value to root canals, then they’re just trying to justify sexism.

Comment #55: ginmar  on  03/23  at  06:50 PM
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