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Next entry: Former Regent University law dean pleads guilty to forcible sodomy with minors Previous entry: Hilarious discredited ‘reorientation therapist’ Cohen slams ‘Prayers for Bobby’

Who needs files on prisoners?

Here’s a news item that almost slipped under the radar, but is well worth considering:

President Obama’s plans to expeditiously determine the fates of about 245 terrorism suspects held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and quickly close the military prison there were set back last week when incoming legal and national security officials—barred until the inauguration from examining classified material on the detainees—discovered that there were no comprehensive case files on many of them.

Emphasis mine.  Let me repeat that, in case you missed it:

discovered that there were no comprehensive case files on many of them.

There’s information scattershot throughout executive communications, but no comprehensive files.  Many of us were mildly sad, though unsurprised, that Obama didn’t just immediately release all the political prisoners with the understanding that we relinquished our right to try them when we relinquished our responsibility to uphold their basic human rights.  I’m sure many of them are guilty of something, but we can’t put them in jail because the Bush administration flubbed this one.  The Obama administration put the tribunal on hold (and it’s understood that it’s most likely going to be shut down) and hung onto these prisoners to figure out what to do with them, all in good faith.  The assumption is that the Bush administration had some reason to maintain this no man’s land political prison.  But with this discovery, I’m inclined to think that we’re going to find out even more unsavory realities about who got sent to Gitmo on what little evidence.  Maybe in the end, they’ll just have to do what human rights groups have been asking and let the prisoners go. 


I had the privilege to be invited to an ACLU conference call with one of the lawyers working against the flagrant human rights abuses in Guantanamo, and let’s just say his story about getting the message about the cessation of the military tribunal until the administration hammers all this out was a romantic story indeed.  Picture: A group of media types and lawyers watching the Obamas dance their first dance at the Neighborhood Ball when a man rides up on a bicycle with orders in hand.  Obviously, the orders aren’t ideal, but at this point, they’re good enough.  But at this point, I can’t help but wonder if they Obama team will just find more and more evidence that the Bush administration didn’t care at all about the reality of their prisoners’ lives and crimes, but were keeping them mostly out of assholery and a desire to make the public think we’re fighting a war so drastic that basic human rights have to be suspended.  At what point, I hope they realize it’s in their best interests to expose the ugliness and let the prisoners go.

Alas, it doesn’t seem like this will be easy for the Obama administration.  The Pentagon is lashing out about the loss of military power by releasing misleading stories about detainees going back to the battlefield.  The ACLU blogger explains why this isn’t quite right:

Al-Shihri was released by the Bush administration in 2007 — without trial or judicial review even though there may have been actual evidence pertaining to his involvement with militant groups. Instead, he was turned over to the Saudis, who eventually released him. This doesn’t exactly fit in well with the Bush administration narrative that they needed to keep Gitmo open as a part of the so-called “war on terror” — and brings up questions of how evidence was handled and how decisions were made to release detainees.

They have more stats on who has been released and what happened to them, but in summary, from the site:

The bottom line: the actual number of people who would meet an objective definition of “returning to the battlefield” is tiny.

More here.

What I find cutely fascinating is the willingness to put these men on battlefields, but not take that thinking to its logical conclusion, which is that therefore said detainees are prisoners of war, not “enemy combatants”, and are due the rights accorded to prisoners of war.  In my mind, it’s interesting but ultimately irrelevant if illegally detained prisoners show up later in a battlefield—-what matters is following the Geneva Convention, which we’re not doing. If we can’t fight this war according to principles we’ve signed on to, then the question of who is a terrorist becomes very ambiguous indeed.  (In other words, we’re a rogue nation, therefore state terrorists.)  And while Obama is a big improvement over the Bush administration, unsurprisingly there’s still violations of the Geneva Convention that may be tolerated.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:48 PM • (28) Comments

It is so fracking sad that I’m not even shocked, not even a wee tad bit surprised, that there are no case files for many of the Guantanamo inmates.

Comment #1: The Opoponax  on  01/26  at  09:54 PM

Let’s say for a second that I’m the wingnuttiest wingnut who ever wingnutted, and I believe that each of those 245 guys in Guantanamo has concrete, operable plans to commit terrorist acts on United States soil.  I would be even *more* pissed off about this news. 

The #1 lesson of 9/11 was that we need information sharing on this sort of thing and not let information vital to national security languish in bureaucratic limbo. 

So, who’s placing bets on indifference and who’s placing bets on incompetence?

Comment #2: blucas!  on  01/26  at  10:00 PM

I’m guessing incompetence.  What really distinguishes the last administration from other war criminals is their phenomenal lack of organization. 

Then again, the less paper trail you leave of your possibly illegal detentions, the less evidence there is to prosecute you or for history to hold you accountable with.

Comment #3: semi_factual  on  01/26  at  10:09 PM

If you really want to put the fear of god into the remaining Bushies - charge the heads of departments with malfeasance under 44 USC Section 3101.

Comment #4: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/26  at  10:28 PM

...between his historical knowledge of the compulsively self-documenting Nazis, knowledge of how Nixon’s tapes and documents paved the way for his downfall, and his personal experience in the Ford and GHW Bush regimes, Cheney learned well the lesson that “if there’s no proof, it didn’t happen”.

Given Bush Jr’s natural desire for maximum secrecy (so the proles can’t easily find out what a fuckup you are), and Rove’s experienced practice of the dark side of American politics, the plan was clear to all.

Spreading what little documentation they had around, some mysterious email server malfunctions, “accidentally” destroyed video tapes, etc., and you manage to obscure things so much you further ensure the Cheney/Bush Admin gets off like that fuckhead “Scooter” Libby. (Actually better because he had to go to trial, was found guilty, and was sentenced.)

As long as they keep their mouths shut (which seems to have been challenging recently) how will they be held to account for their crimes?

Cheney knows the drinks Abu Gonzales brings him while he lounges poolside taste so much better when you know you got away with it…

Comment #5: MikeEss  on  01/26  at  10:28 PM

The shorter paper trail also leaves less to vindicate you, but there will be no vindication for the Bush administration.  Amanda restated stuff I’ve been saying for months:  We’re the terrorists now.  It’s deplorable and disappearing people and locking away undesirables are among the reasons that this country sought its independence and why so many have sought refuge here.  Its unAmerican for our leaders to have behaved this way.

It’s been said before, but the terrorists have won.  Any compromising of our ethics and violations of the Constitution were big giant white flags.

Comment #6: Spooky Skeptic  on  01/26  at  10:34 PM

As long as they keep their mouths shut (which seems to have been challenging recently) how will they be held to account for their crimes?…
MikeEss on 01/26 at 05:28 PM

Well, we should at least hold them accountable for their apparent incompetence.

It’s a booby prize, when what really would be just would be to jail them for crimes of commission, but it would be something.

What they’ve done is muddy the waters, and pretty much forced the choice of either letting possibly dangerous people walk, or back up their lawless play in the name of safety.

I think trials—ordinary, open trials according to standard rules—should go forward without further delay, and if the screwed-up evidence and blatant violations of reasonable due process are the “technicalities” on which clearly guilty people walk—well, it will be clear who was responsible.

We might also remind people that if there is evidence and the Bush people had kept proper track of it, they could and should have held trials long ago. Why didn’t they?

I tend to the paranoid side which means I attribute to intelligent malice what might be due to pure stupidity. I suppose it’s clear that many, many Bushites were just plain dumb (or lazy). But I also suppose someone knew better and let, or even ordered, all this to happen precisely because of the dire consequences to the concept of orderly, public, accountable rule of law.

Comment #7: Mark Foxwell  on  01/26  at  10:47 PM

This is a horrible situation. Of the 245 prisoners, some were definitely terrorists beforehand, some weren’t terrorists coming, but will gladly turn to terrorism due to their incarceration, and some probably will just be thankful to be the fuck out of there and will never bother anyone ever again. The problem is distinguishing between the 3 sets in a just manner. Also, if we could distinguish the 3 we would still have significant problems. There are certainly people in there that are currently innocent of any wrongdoing, but will certainly turn to extremism now. But, no civilized society can imprison someone because you brutalized them so much that you think they will commit violent acts in the future. But, as soon as one of them turns to terrorism, it won’t be the Bush administration who gets blame for fucking up, it’ll be Obama and the pussy liberals who put their sissy concerns of human rights over national security. What a mess.

Comment #8: penn  on  01/26  at  10:49 PM

What a bunch of effing amateurs. I don’t even think they were doing the no-paper-trail thing, because according to some of the reports there is a paper trail, it’s just haphazardly scattered throughout gitmo and various corners of the DoD and CIA. They just got together a criminal enterprise of people who wanted to torture people and used presidential power to implement it. Except they weren’t even very serious about that—they played at it for a while and then they lost interest.

But all of a sudden the stories that came out years ago about not having videotapes of the interrogations begin to make sense. If they were full-bore psychos (and good thing they weren’t) they would have had tapes made and watched them every night before bed (as some of the people who put together Abu Ghraib no doubt did). If they were real intelligence officers, they would have made tapes and watched them obsessively looking for additional clues in a gesture or an expression. If you’re just doing this because you want to strut around for a while and then go on to the next big thing, then you don’t need tapes.

This is also what happens when the wingnut welfare system gets thoroughly embedded in the government: you don’t even have people around who know how things should be done to keep up appearances.

And yeah, the whole pushback thing is laughably stupid: they had the most thoroughly stacked system they could design, with the ability to torture suspects into confessing, to prosecute people using evidence obtained by torture or made up out of whole cloth, and to have decisions made by judges accountable to no one. And they still, on their own word, released people who have become terrorists and may have been terrorists before. Crap. That’s like striking out in T-ball.

Comment #9: paul  on  01/26  at  11:32 PM

I recall, several years ago, probably on NPR, a story regarding prisoners taken in Afghanistan.  According to some of the processors in the military, many were picked up based on tips from warlords and other players in Afghanistan.  It was very convenient for for those trying to consolidate power.  Any rival or threat that wasn’t already known to the US forces and in good standing could just be pionted at, and poof, he’s gone.  I have to once again wonder, how many detained at Gitmo have a story like that.

Comment #10: D  on  01/27  at  12:56 AM

I recall, several years ago, probably on NPR, a story regarding prisoners taken in Afghanistan.  According to some of the processors in the military, many were picked up based on tips from warlords and other players in Afghanistan.  It was very convenient for for those trying to consolidate power.  Any rival or threat that wasn’t already known to the US forces and in good standing could just be pionted at, and poof, he’s gone.  I have to once again wonder, how many detained at Gitmo have a story like that.

THEY COULD ALL CLAIM THAT.

And thanks to the Bush imbeciles, they have no evidence refuting them.

Comment #11: gwangung  on  01/27  at  02:33 AM

“Heh, we can detain them indefinitly. Why bother with making a case file?’

Comment #12: BlackBloc  on  01/27  at  02:38 AM

I wonder if there’s a comprehensive case file on Omar Khadr, the Canadian jailed there. He’s the last detainee who’s a citizen of a “western” nation as the Canadian government - unlike the governments of Australia, the United Kingdom, etc. - has decided to ignore its responsibility to one of its citizens.

He was 15 when captured following a firefight in Afghanistan. He’s now 22.

Can anyone say “child soldier?”

I don’t know if it makes you feel any better to know you’re not the only country that has failed the basic-standards-of-decency test at Gitmo. It doesn’t me.

Comment #13: Andrew  on  01/27  at  06:27 AM

I literally felt sick when I read the Gitmo story a few days ago, but like The Opoponax said, the thing that made me saddest was how unsurprised I was by these revelations.

Atrios over at Eschaton keeps wondering if they’re evil or just incompetent, but I think it’s not an either/or situation.  The fact that these people were allowed to take power in the first place, and then to keep it after their first term, proves conclusively that our country is very sick indeed. 

I honestly think that one of the main agents in our country’s slide into what I can only describe as evil has been our thoroughly bankrupt and ineffective press corps.  I’ve been living in the UK for a year, and the difference between how the press operates here and how it operates in the U.S. is stark.  Even morning show hosts ask politicians really tough questions and hammer them when they waffle or doublespeak.  I came home to the U.S. for Christmas, and was appalled when I watched the news on TV.  It was unbelievably lame and uninformative.  And this is the source where most people in the U.S. get their information!  It’s no wonder Bush got voted in for a second term, and stories like the one linked above go unnoticed and unremarked except among political news junkies like us.

It’s very sad, and it’s discouraging.

Comment #14: Rumblelizard  on  01/27  at  06:29 AM

The fuckup is so complete that the latest line—from the Republican head of the House Judicial Committee as interviewed (and not pressed for any actual facts) by NPR yesterday—is that those inmates may get released into our neighborhoods as soon as an activist judge decides they have to be released.  I say if that’s a possibility, then we better have some real evidence that this is something to be feared.  Apparently we don’t.

Here’s the real fear: those inmates are the only people who will talk about what actually happened, and our side can’t do so without facing prosecution.  Chances are, their stories will be used to call for hate against Americans for decades in the least.  We’ll be as welcome in many places as German tourists in Israel, if not worse.  This is our concentration camp legacy, this is our stain, and this is the thing our children will be apologizing for to foreigners for years to come.  What we need to do is come out and say what the hell happened and lessen the damage that has been done.  But we can only do that if we are willing to let these victims (many of whom would gladly be victimizers) speak out about their experiences.  But we can’t do that without being exposed as liars.  These people are the cover up of one of this country’s greatest criminal acts ever, not quite as bad as slavery and its legacy or the fucking over of the Indians, but definitely worse than most everything else (including nuking two cities.)

Saw Jon Stewart last night mocking those who said we couldn’t hold them in this country.  He responded with a few clips of the American prison system from MSNBC’s programming.  He said that holding people is one of the things this country is best at doing, and he’s right.  We’d be capable of holding many more if we weren’t so good at it, but that’s another story.

Comment #15: 3letterjon  on  01/27  at  09:12 AM

It was the most brilliantly stupid administration ever.

Comment #16: atheist  on  01/27  at  10:47 AM

This may be why Spain is enthusiastic to help.  There may very well be people in gitmo that are wanted in Spain for 311 connections, but the US wasn’t helping them learn if they were or were not in gitmo.  It would be most useful if some of the wanted people were in this population, as they could be handed over and tried for things completely unrelated to anything that happened over here, including ill-obtained evidence.

Comment #17: Ms Kate  on  01/27  at  11:34 AM

“has decided to ignore its responsibility to one of its citizens.

He was 15 when captured following a firefight in Afghanistan”

Well it’s not like they don’t have legal cause to abandon him. Going to a foreign country to fight where you are not allowed to do so is a huge no no but as a teenager on your own. Even the US would forget you if you wound up in a foreign prison.

Comment #18: tootiredoftheright  on  01/27  at  11:35 AM

Well it’s not like they don’t have legal cause to abandon him. Going to a foreign country to fight where you are not allowed to do so is a huge no no but as a teenager on your own.

Good to know that if my parents are fuckups and decide to drag my 13-year-old ass to Afghanistan even though I’m a Canadian citizen, the government’s only response should be, “Sorry, you should have picked better parents.”

Comment #19: Mnemosyne  on  01/27  at  01:04 PM

I want to make the logic, have reasoned opinions, discuss solutions. But I can’t anymore. I want to give these thugs a fair-trial and a first class hanging… The other option, is, suddenly we will have a top-notch maximum security prison available. Hmmm?

Comment #20: paleotectonics  on  01/27  at  01:11 PM

That’s ‘fair trial and first-class’. Must remember preview button and rules of grammar.

Comment #21: paleotectonics  on  01/27  at  01:13 PM

Wanna place for these bozos?  Reopen Portsmouth Naval Prision which has been closed for some time.  It is on an island and was knows as the Alcatraz of the East.  No one successfully escaped from there…ever.

Comment #22: Magis  on  01/27  at  01:29 PM

“Good to know that if my parents are fuckups and decide to drag my 13-year-old ass to Afghanistan even though I’m a Canadian citizen, the government’s only response should be, “Sorry, you should have picked better parents.”

He isn’t really that much of a Canadian if you look at his bio. And there are plenty of Canadians who don’t want the Khadr family in Canada for not only what they said about Canada but their admitted family ties to Osama.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/02/07/khadr-bio.html

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/khadr/

From http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/khadr/family/canada.html we get several Canadian newspaper reactions on the Khadr family.

“Elsamnah Khadr should be about 20 years too late to claim medicare for her 14-year-old son Karim, crippled in the 12-hour gunfight that claimed the life of his father, a notorious terrorist fundraiser.

And there’s not much doubt she’d rather be elsewhere. Having deemed Canada unfit to raise her children lest they become drug addicts or, apparently worse, homosexuals, she left in the 1980s to expose her four sons to the joys of al-Qaeda training camps.

But her son’s injury and the lure of free health care have forced her to return to a country she considered unworthy to live in and enter an Americanized culture her husband was allegedly committed to destroy. And that has caused a fury in the land, mixed with taxpayers’ sense of helplessness as they watch Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty reluctantly cave to citizenship laws requiring him to extend the perks and privileges afforded any bonafide Canadian.

Clearly, the words of this matriarch and her outspoken daughter, the actions of her deceased husband and terrorist-suspect sons, and the notoriety of their infamous ringleader friends render the entire clan unworthy of citizenship or its benefits”

Comment #23: tootiredoftheright  on  01/27  at  03:13 PM

I never understood why they were STILL torturing people, years after they were arrested. Any intel those people held would be useless after 6 months so why torture ?

Sadly we now find out it was just for show. To have a “Jack Bauer” place on display for their wingnut voters to feel safe and their Jack Bauer wannabes to fantasize on.

Truly sick people

Comment #24: Renmiri  on  01/27  at  04:00 PM

Any intel those people held would be useless after 6 months so why torture ?

Any “detainees” clearly receive current plans via thought-rays that bin Laden sends out using his beard as some kind of antenna.

Comment #25: Dolbia  on  01/27  at  04:28 PM

I never understood why they were STILL torturing people, years after they were arrested. Any intel those people held would be useless after 6 months so why torture ?

Sadly we now find out it was just for show.
...
Renmiri on 01/27 at 11:00 AM

All torture is “for show.” At least, that’s the only rational reason for it. It’s an expression of terror, of the capacity to terrorize.

There is also, of course, irrational if sometimes understandable vindictiveness.

Sometimes I worry that I’ve become such a big fan of Lost. After all, the “good guy” victims of the Oceanic 815 crash generally do seem like, on the whole, good guys indeed to me. But early on, I came to hate and fear the Others along with them, and found myself applauding when they caught one of them and gave them various levels of hard times, up to and including shooting them point-blank. It’s a goddam war, I felt, and the Others started it.

Then I’d shake myself loose a bit and realize, either this is some really slick right-wing propaganda, or actually there is more to the right-wing pro-terror doctrines than I’ve been giving credit for.

Now I’m almost but not quite caught up—I think the fact that SciFi used its last 4-hour installment this Monday to reprise selected eps from the four seasons that they’ve already shown means they finshed Season Four last week. But now I’m told the new season premiere was last Sunday…

I think the show quietly also showed what was wrong with that impulse, other that that torture and murder are barbaric in themselves. It also doesn’t work. At least not to accomplish the purposes one tells oneself, in desperation, that one is trying to achieve (if one has any shred of pretnce to civilized decency lefy, anyway). It doesn’t elicit reliable information. It doesn’t convince your enemies of the righteousness of your cause.

It might terrorize, and perhaps, deter them, or make them feel forced to open negotiations—if, that is, one holds a very strong upper hand in other respects, in which case it is superfluous—and worse, because it might also sour prospects for reconciliation and drive one’s opponents to even more desperate opposition.

What it actually did for the flawed heroes of Lost was gratify their desire for vengeance and provide an outlet for frustrations. That irrational aspect is probably a big part of why the Bushies indulged themselves, and got public approval for doing so.

But in the end it is only a sensible way of proceeding if one is committed to ongoing terror as a way of life. Which I think the American Right tends to be. They have no use for rule of law, they think; we already know who the bad guys are and they should suffer and get no hearing; that’s winning.

Comment #26: Mark Foxwell  on  01/27  at  11:20 PM

i have to wonder if they weren’t thinking something along the lines of mortification of the flesh - you know, like suspected witches and heretics, even after confession, often had their torture continue as a way to “purify” them and make sure that, after they were tortured to death, they could still achieve heaven.

i mean, is it possible that King George II and his cohorts actually thought that they were doing something that advanced, not the *lives* of the detainees, but their *souls* or something?

or maybe, i am just so sickened at behavior that is the adult sociopathic version of pulling the wings off of flies that i am looking for *ANYTHING* that makes sense.

but - and i’m just saying - most of the people who were part of the Bush administration at least *claim* to be far-right fundies. so, i think the idea that they were acting on a doctrine out of the 1600’s is not really that far of a reach…

Comment #27: denelian  on  01/28  at  12:56 AM

I’m not in the least surprised.

Comment #28: Samantha Vimes  on  01/28  at  08:45 AM
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