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Next entry: We Need Vaginal Ultrasounds So That Mothers Can Remember What Pregnancy Was Like Previous entry: Feeling left out

Why is women’s sexuality so scary?

Yesterday, my speculation about the individual motives of a lot of people who are jumping on the "take away the birth control" campaign was that for a lot of them, they believe---rightly or wrongly---that the missed out on the sexual revolution and they'll be damned if other people a good time. (There were the usual, and I believe false, claims in comments that more or less permission has absolutely no influence on people's choices, but I don't agree. More freedom has meant that women probably do say yes more often and sooner, and it certainly has meant women feel more free to ask. We have direct medical evidence to show that it's also increased rates of oral sex, at least oral sex men perform on women. Obviously, conservatives both exaggerate how much sex people are  having now and downplay how much they had in the past, but they aren't entirely wrong that liberation means more and better sex. If liberation had no positive influence on people's sexual happiness, there is no point in fighting for it. But I digress.) But I didn't have time to talk about what I think is the ideological reason that there's so much fear of female sexuality. What about female sexuality is so disruptive and so scary to the right that they will make utter asses out of themselves fighting to suppress it? 

Well, I think it goes back fundamentally to the belief that women should be subservient. To justify women's second class status, conservatives have always leapt on the theory of difference. The argument is that men and women are complete opposites and therefore should have separate spheres. Yes, women's sphere is lesser (though increasingly they deny this, sticking to the "separate but equal" argument), but that is just a fact of biology, in their opinions. The number one conservative whine that I get all the time is, "Feminists deny that men and women are different." Which is a strawman, of course. The question isn't whether or not there are differences, the question is how different are we, really. Feminists say that men and women have more in common than not---and point to people whose gender doesn't fall along a strict binary to show that there are hardly two polar opposite genders to even discusse at all---and that a lot of traits that have been characterized as male-only actually belong to women as well: courage, ambition, strength, intelligence, etc. For conservatives, it's critically important that the differences between men and women be extreme and stable. As they lose ground in many ways, finding themselves unable (as Rick Santorum recently realized when he basically tried to claim women were too "emotional", a code word for stupid, to be in the military) to argue that women are inferior outside of the bedroom, emphasizing differences in sexuality becomes even more important. After all, it's hard to deny that men and women both have brains, but cisgendered men and women do have different genitals, so that can muddy the waters sufficiently, giving conservatives opportunities to make broad statements about how female sexuality is "different", i.e. inferior, and therefore women's lives need to be constrained. The fact that the discussion is about contraception as much as about abortion lately is making that more obvious, with folks like James Poulos basically coming right out and saying that women's sexual difference means that women's role in life is as support staff for men. (He still didn't have the courage of his convictions enough to say so plainly, however, and instead buried that claim in a pile of incomprehensible wankery that he hoped sounded intellectual, but existed mainly to establish plausible deniability. If you can't quite understand his illiterate prose, then you can't really argue against it, right?)

This is why liberated female sexuality is so threatening. Conservative ideology holds that men and women are opposites. Men like sex, and so in order to keep the ideology intact, women can't. In this world, women instead want male approval and of course babies, and sex is something they have to endure to get it. Contraception and especially abortion undermine this theory, not just because they can't conceive of a woman saying no to babies, but also because they're operating under an image of pregnancy as being something that gets men who otherwise want nothing to do with women (outside of sex) to commit. That women themselves say no to babies but yes to sex makes it hard to believe that it's just women putting up with sex to get marriage-and-babies. That women often choose abortion in order to avoid marriage and babies (at least at this point in time) sends them around the bend. It suggests that people are individuals, not easily categorized genders with predictable and opposite behavior. 

If you won't choose it, then they feel that they're in their rights to force it. When women can't access contraception and abortion, sex is, in fact, less fun for them because it's fraught. It does, in fact, introduce a power imbalance to sexual interactions between men and women because women are vulnerable in a way men aren't. Giving men that power over women restores what conservatives believe is the proper order. If they can shame women and convince them that only sluts like sex, they can also get women to engage as enforcers, implying that they're too good for that dirty sex stuff, unlike those lesser women. (Exhibit A.) That just bolsters the illusion that male and female sexuality are very different, and in that difference, they can find leverage to argue---though indirectly, as is their habit---that women are lesser than men.

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 12:46 PM • (48) Comments

That women often choose abortion in order to avoid marriage and babies (at least at this point in time) sends them around the bend. It suggests that people are individuals, not easily categorized genders with predictable and opposite behavior.

And then there are the women who have already said yes to marriage, but aren’t saying yes to babies, or at least not just yet, and the ones who’ve already said yes to a baby or two, but not another one, or who want another baby, but not right the fuck now, and they confuse things even further. We don’t want the wimminfolk to start thinking they can build their families on their own terms.

Comment #1: Alyson Miers  on  02/19  at  01:58 PM

I think the explanation is actually pretty simple.

These people find women’s sexual agency terrifying. Women having the power to choose when to be sexual, with who, who to have children with and when, who to spend their lives with and who not to spend their lives with terrifies them because if women have agency they’re less likely to endure unequal sexual encounters and/or relationships with loser conservative men suffering from the delusions of anxious masculinity.

Comment #2: Praxis  on  02/19  at  02:28 PM

I posted this link in a comment on the post below, but it also seems appropriate here: Saturday Night Live’s assessment of Foster Friess’ “apology” for the aspirin “joke.”

Poehler’s best dig came after discussing conservative supporter Foster Freiss’ now-infamous comment on the issue involving Bayer aspirin being used as contraception. He since apologized, but Amy wasn’t having it:
“Well, we’d love to accept your apology, Foster, but you made a mistake—and now you’re going to have to live with that mistake for the rest of your life.”
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/19/amy-poehler-weekend-update-really-birth-control-video_n_1287485.html?ref=comedy

Comment #3: judybrowni  on  02/19  at  02:33 PM

But so what if women like sex? You can just use that fact to continue to subjugate them. Maybe women like sex even more than men, which makes them horny and crazy and implies that they need to be locked in the kitchen for their own protection. Male superiority is the ultimate theory of the gaps. Men are better than women, full stop, and any real or imagined difference proves that, no matter what it might be.

To use my personal favorite example, if boys get better grades in school, it’s because they’re smarter than girls. If girls get better grades, it’s because girls are dull-minded workhorses and boys are too creative and intelligent to be boxed in by emasculating educational standards.

I really don’t think these guys need to worry so much. Sexism can always win in the end.

Comment #4: junk science  on  02/19  at  02:34 PM

Ross Douthat today says that the answer to unwanted pregnancy is monogamy.  Huh?  As long as you’re married, you’re fine with having 12 kids?  Or maybe once you’re married you’re too sick of each other to want sex?  I wish I could hear him try to explain this.

Comment #5: gretchen  on  02/19  at  02:58 PM

Or maybe once you’re married you’re too sick of each other to want sex?

If he were a normal person, he’d be making a stale joke about the stereotype that married people don’t want to fuck each other. Since he isn’t, I have no idea what he was thinking.

Comment #6: junk science  on  02/19  at  03:06 PM

Ross Douthat today says that the answer to unwanted pregnancy is monogamy.  Huh?  As long as you’re married, you’re fine with having 12 kids?  Or maybe once you’re married you’re too sick of each other to want sex?  I wish I could hear him try to explain this.

If we define “unwanted” to mean that the mother cannot compel the father to provide for the child because paternity is ambiguous or the father’s relationship to the mother is sufficiently casual that he can pretend not to have been involved with her, then Douthat’s latest offering makes sense. If, however, we define “unwanted” to mean that the woman just doesn’t want to have a baby this year, regardless of who the daddy is or how involved he’s willing to be, then Douthat is making about as much sense as he usually does.

Comment #7: Alyson Miers  on  02/19  at  03:24 PM

I think there is another layer here, and it’s that the het male view is the default one.  They never (or rarely) find men to be sexually attractive, so how could women possibly do that?  Since they’ve defined it as women being sexually appealing and men not, and they see that most women aren’t attracted to women, or the attractive sex, they assume that women are simply asexual.  You’re not turned on by things that are sexy, then you must have not interest in sex.  It simply cannot occur to them that it is normal and healthy for many people to find men sexually attractive.  Those people have historically not had their voices heard, so it’s just “common knowledge” that men just aren’t attractive.  For example, consider the Seinfeld episode of “good naked, bad naked”.  Men are just simply bad naked, full stop.  Women are usually good naked.  For the life of me, I can’t figure out why Jerry would think that women have sex with him if they aren’t physically aroused by him.

Comment #8: bananacat  on  02/19  at  03:45 PM

Ross Douthat today says that the answer to unwanted pregnancy is monogamy.  Huh?  As long as you’re married, you’re fine with having 12 kids?

This is the problem I’ve always had with shotgun weddings, or the belief that if a teen gets pregnant she should marry the teen father and raise the baby, and abortion or adoption would only be a last resort if she couldn’t wrangle him in.  Conservatives seem to think that a marriage certificate is a magical piece of paper that will put food on the table and pay the rent.  More rational people will realize that kids cost money and resources whether you’re married or not, and that for most people it is a good idea to use contraception at least some time during their lives.

Comment #9: bananacat  on  02/19  at  03:50 PM

I think it is also to a large extent that these right-wing fuckebagges literally are disgusted by and hate women, and so they genuinely enjoy dominating women and making them suffer. You can see this in the Virginia legislature and the visible excitement and glee with which many of them anticipate coerced vaginal ultrasounds. They get off on making women suffer.

Comment #10: PhysioProf  on  02/19  at  03:56 PM

“Ross Douthat today says that the answer to unwanted pregnancy is monogamy.”

If Ross Douchehat said the sky was blue, I’d rush outside to see why it has just turned red….

...and I sure hope our little Ross, and the career-minded woman who lowered herself to marry him, got the boundaries of their relationship straight right up front: She forgets any life outside of being a housewife and mother to a continuous stream of Ross’s unfortunate homunculi, while he works late hours, complains that she’s turning bitter about being nothing more than his maid and brood-mare, and eventually he starts up a series of affairs with underlings at work, which he justifies because he mandates that no contraception shall be used, while she gets friendly with the pool boy and the guy who drops by to fix the mysteriously-always-needing-servicing heater/AC, troublesome plumbing, household electrical system and appliances.

If not, then he’s either a pussy-whipped eunuch unworthy of calling himself a Conservative Man, or an abject failure at living the life he wants to force everyone else to live.  Or both.

What a fucking (or non-fucking as the case may be) douchebag…

Comment #11: MikeEss  on  02/19  at  03:57 PM

The question isn’t whether or not there are differences, the question is how different are we, really.

Yes, and as soon as it is made explicit that this is the question, the conservative viewpoint is revealed as absurd. What conservatives need to justify their social policies is not just that women are different, but that they are so different that they do not warrant (and indeed do not even really need or want) autonomy, dignity, bodily and economic security, and the opportunity to pursue happiness and meaning. To think that about women is really to deny that they are human beings. But manifestly, they are human. And so writers like Poulos have to obscure the actual content of their view with gibberish, grand-standing and other distractions.

Comment #12: JasonB  on  02/19  at  04:12 PM

I’ve always thought there was some vagina envy at play with a lot of these guys as well.  Their view of how men and women get together is basically narrowed down to, “Men go after women, women pick from the men going after them,” and they want the ability to do that.  Because they lack that- and they lack any concept of how to be successful in the “man’s role” as they see it- they get all huffy and want to pull everyone else down since they can’t climb to the same level of happiness.

Of course, they only target the ladies because someday they’d like to be one of those successful guys.  But the fact anything that would successfully decrease women acting on their sexuality would mean less sex for men overall as well doesn’t really bother them, because they’re not the men likely to be affected.

And yes, some guys who can and do fuck everyone in sight still take these insane lines towards women’s sexuality.  I’m just saying this is the mindset of some of the men who talk this shit, not all.  And it’s on top of the idea Amanda’s putting forward, not at odds with it.

Comment #13: Spiffy McBang  on  02/19  at  04:29 PM

Bananacat @8 has a good point. There are some women who claim to not like sex, or be more turned on by status and suaveness than looks and raw sexual appeal, so they do exist. That’s fine. But it’s been massively overstated and generalized into some sort of law of sexuality. Not only does that create a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy (since the “woman as object, man as subject” is part of socialization from a very young age), it makes things difficult for those who can’t relate to it.

The idea is so ingrained that it sometimes even transcends power structures. Sascher-Masoch has a quote in Venus in Furs about how “man is the one who desires, woman the one who is desired”, even as he’s making the case for female sexual domination.

I’ve always thought there was some vagina envy at play with a lot of these guys as well.  Their view of how men and women get together is basically narrowed down to, “Men go after women, women pick from the men going after them,” and they want the ability to do that.

This, and also I think they resent women for being able to inspire so much lust in them and others, and they want that. That’s the reason behind so much whining about women having more erotic capital than men and thus somehow being more powerful. Understandable, but they want to be physically desirable while still maintaining a traditionally masculine, domineering sexuality. It’s possible to participate in mutual desire in a het relationship, but that’s too close to a liberal, sex-positive sexuality that empowers both men and women. They don’t want THAT; they want to have their cake and eat it too, without giving women the same agency.

Comment #14: Treefinger  on  02/19  at  05:09 PM

This, and also I think they resent women for being able to inspire so much lust in them and others, and they want that. That’s the reason behind so much whining about women having more erotic capital than men and thus somehow being more powerful.

Who would have thought that constantly shaming women into spending their lives being desirable and attractive to men would result in women actually making themselves desirable and attractive? Who would have thought letting men believe women don’t care about a man’s looks would lead to the classic smelly, slovenly Nice Guy look? Straight d00d logic at its finest: force women to be good catches, and then complain that they’re better catches than you are.

Comment #15: junk science  on  02/19  at  05:34 PM

Conservatives seem to think that a marriage certificate is a magical piece of paper that will put food on the table and pay the rent.

They also think that it will magically make a relationship work. Show me a couple that got married because she found out she’s pregnant, and I’ll show you a divorce in the making.

Comment #16: Jayn Newell  on  02/19  at  05:47 PM

Why is women’s sexuality so scary?

I think it is impossible to answer that question without understanding how much performance anxiety has to do with the conservative/MRA/Nice Guy world view.

If a woman is free to enjoy sex then she is free to choose partners who respond to her needs.

That is going to create a lot of lonely selfish men.

Comment #17: Colorado Dave  on  02/19  at  06:13 PM

Totally OT, but I have a question for more knowledgable netizens than I (thanks in advance for any answers anyone can provide and apologies for this loosely connected question):

So I followed the link at the end of Amanda’s post to digby’s post from Friday concerning an absolutely appalling comment by CNN’s Dana Loesch about the Virginia State-Sanctioned Rape Law (worth reading digby, of course). 

digby’s post in turn links to a post by Charles Johnson at LGF who is also extremely critical of Loesch.

So here’s the question: Have Charles Johnson and LGF done a John Cole and left the dark side?  If so, when did this happen?

I must admit that I had lost track of Johnson several years ago.  But he used to be one of the most vile wingnut bloggers out there. 

Evidence of positive change is always a good thing.  I’m I wrong to see it in Johnson’s case?

Comment #18: Ben Alpers  on  02/19  at  06:42 PM

@Ben:  No, you’re not wrong.  Johnson pulled a JC some time ago.  I don’t regularly read his site, so I don’t know if it’s as thorough an evolution as Cole’s, but there was definitely a “fuck you guys, I’m out” type of split from what conservatism has become.

Comment #19: Spiffy McBang  on  02/19  at  07:01 PM

Straight d00d logic at its finest: force women to be good catches, and then complain that they’re better catches than you are.

What’s even better is how round the bend this has gone:  It is, or at least damn well seems to be, more and more common for guys to say something to the effect of, “I’d rather be with a girl who looks pretty good without trying than one who looks great but is always fussing with her shit.”

Granted, this still insists upon a level of physical attractiveness that would be at least above average, and an awful lot will claim to prefer women with no makeup when they really mean “a quantity of makeup small enough so that I can’t tell any is there”.  But it’s still a shift away from the expectation of women always needing to get dolled up and be perfectly proportioned- and, of course, it’s an idea that’s spreading now that we’re airing reality shows about women getting plastic surgery.  Woo, timing!

Comment #20: Spiffy McBang  on  02/19  at  07:13 PM

Spiffy @20

It’s always been a requirement that women spend a lot of time, money, and thought on their appearance while pretending that they don’t.  This way women can be blamed both for not trying hard enough to be attractive and for trying too hard.  Sometimes both at the same time.

Comment #21: Nutella  on  02/19  at  07:25 PM

@Nutella:  Y…eah…

Well, in a general sense, that’s certainly true.  But, unless I’ve drastically misunderstood what I’ve read about in decades past, the expectations could be broadly described as “effortless glamour”.  There’s a noticeable difference between that and what I’m talking about.  Unfortunately I’m at work so I don’t really have time to elaborate, but hopefully that at least helps explain the basis of my statement.

Comment #22: Spiffy McBang  on  02/19  at  08:30 PM

And now, The Truth from the One True Dude:

I also want the women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, adorning themselves, not with elaborate hairstyles or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But women will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.  1 Timothy 2: 9-15.

Comment #23: gaillardia  on  02/19  at  09:26 PM

...and Poe’s Law strikes again…

How about some more recipes?...

Comment #24: MikeEss  on  02/19  at  10:56 PM

Oh shit, that was actually meant to be taken seriously, not as sarcasm.

Troll review: 2/10.  Could use some more original material.

Homemade chicken soup:

Warning: all quantities approximate.

Fresh chicken pieces, about half a pound (I like to use the wings, back, and neck from a whole chicken)
6 cups cold water
1-2 tablespoons salt, to taste
2-3 bay leaves
1 whole medium onion, peeled
2 teaspoons fresh dill weed, to taste
1/4 teaspoon black peppercorns
2 or 3 carrots, cut into large pieces


Put the chicken with enough cold water to cover in a large pot over medium-high heat.  Add salt.  Bring to a boil and skim off the foam when it rises.

Add the onion, bay leaves, peppercorns, and dill.  Reduce heat and simmer for a couple of hours.

About half an hour before cooking time is over, add the carrots (optional).

Strain the broth, adjust seasonings, and serve with macaroni or egg noodles.  Also really nice to sip as a beverage.

Comment #25: Tabbycat, Sovereign of Sushi and Sashimi  on  02/19  at  11:56 PM

“I’d rather be with a girl who looks pretty good without trying than one who looks great but is always fussing with her shit.”

Makeup is one thing, but a lot of attractiveness is simply taking care of yourself, having a good attitude, and cultivating your social presence to some extent, which a large number of straight guys simply don’t want to bother with, or consider it a huge fucking burden that they will bitch about very loudly if they do. Women are supposed to do all those things without complaint, because women’s time and effort don’t exist, and if they do, they don’t matter.

I agree that men like to think they prefer women without makeup, because it’s a bit gauche to claim you want your sex partners to look artificial, but many of them simply don’t have a realistic idea of what most women look like without any makeup at all. Also, there’s all that hair removal that women are expected to do in order to appear in public, whether they’re trying to get laid by men or not.

Comment #26: junk science  on  02/20  at  12:12 AM

And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Wasn’t Adam deceived by Eve herself? Or does it not count because it’s her fault for tempting him with her sexy sexiness and he can’t be held responsible or mocked or thought less of in any way for his own stupidity, weakness, and buck-passing?

Few have hated on bitchez with the magnificent petulance of Paul.

Comment #27: junk science  on  02/20  at  12:36 AM

I agree with Praxis at #2.  Patriarchy is built upon a foundation of women unable to choose their own sexual partners without risking extreme physical, emotional, and social consequences.  So long as men are choosing who women have sex with and have babies with, those men controlled society.  Once women can choose their own partners and choose when they’ll have a child, the power of distributing procreation rights (and the inheritances that typically went with them among the wealthy, and the fees certain male-only classes extracted to solemnize conjugal pairings) upon which patriarchal power rests disappears.  No long do younger men have to please them to gain the “standing” to date women, nor their “blessing” to have sex with them; no longer does their favor determine the course of a woman’s life, nor the options for fulfillment open to her.  All the perks that flowed from wielding that power vanish with it, and those who remember or long for it cannot stand that fact.  What infuriates and frightens men like Santorum is the idea of women choosing their sexual behavior on their own; the most obvious evidence of this is the hysterical fear common upon the forced birth movement of Anglo-Saxon demographic collapse.

Comment #28: Heron  on  02/20  at  12:40 AM

Poulos

Wh-wwwwhaat did I just read?  Are we sure it wasn’t intended as performance art?

Comment #29: bomberE  on  02/20  at  12:51 AM

Heron @ 28:

This is a huge part of it.  It all comes down to the fact that women ultimately control reproduction, and in societies where property and inheritance is a big deal and it’s important for a man to know who his kids are, then controlling women’s freedom becomes crucial.

I really do think a part of patriarchy is due to womb envy.  Women can make more people, and men can’t (well, it takes two, but you understand my meaning).  That causes some serious freak-outs.

Comment #30: Tabbycat, Sovereign of Sushi and Sashimi  on  02/20  at  01:20 AM

I really do think a part of patriarchy is due to womb envy.

Whether or not it started that way, I doubt knowing that is going to make much difference now. Patriarchy exists because it’s always existed, or it has for as long as we can remember. We do things because we’ve always done them, and the original reasons become less and less important.

Comment #31: junk science  on  02/20  at  01:41 AM

Junk science @ 31:

Maybe not that much difference, but it is still part of the discourse around reproductive rights and women’s sexual freedom.  A good example is the fear of (white) demographic collapse Heron mentioned.  The ‘wrong’ women having too many kids and the ‘right’ women having too few is something that needs to be corrected by bringing us all under state control. 

Some wingnut in my local letters to the editor section put it plainly once, quoting some statistic about the number of abortions performed in our province in the last however many decades.  “OMG you wonder why we have low population when WE’RE LETTING THE WIMMINS abort X number of Saskatchewan citizens!” 

That was exactly how it was phrased—Saskatchewan women are being allowed to abort the province’s residents.  Never mind that our population woes were and have been caused by economic reasons (and we’re perceived as kind of a backwater), and many people born here would choose or be forced to leave for better opportunities and/or lifestyle reasons.

Yeah, women have no right to control their own reproductive lives and the state interest needs to be protected!  Can’t leave these crucially important matters in the hands of those….creatures, can we?

Comment #32: Tabbycat, Sovereign of Sushi and Sashimi  on  02/20  at  02:02 AM

I just want to say, again, that my parents are totally invested in this worldview, and at this point, since changing would involve admitting decades of error, they are far too terrified to consider it.

But it fucked me up something fierce, and it’s something I’ll never fully forgive.

Comment #33: Punditus Maximus  on  02/20  at  02:12 AM

Don’t get me wrong—this worldview has caused, and will indefinitely cause, tremendous suffering.  It strains their marriage and makes it impossible for them to interact for long periods.  But it’s just been too long.

Comment #34: Punditus Maximus  on  02/20  at  02:13 AM

I really do think a part of patriarchy is due to womb envy.  Women can make more people, and men can’t (well, it takes two, but you understand my meaning).  That causes some serious freak-outs.

I can’t imagine this is meant precisely how it sounds, that men want to actually make the babies.  Is it?  I mean, patriarchy-happy dudes want to control whether the baby comes or not, absolutely.  And a lot of guys who understand and accept that the final decision isn’t theirs would still like a say.  But you would be very hard pressed to find more than a handful of men who aren’t perfectly happy outsourcing the actual job to women.

Epidurals sound neat, but I don’t want to find out what they’re like that badly.

Comment #35: Spiffy McBang  on  02/20  at  02:30 AM

Spiffy @ 35:

No, I definitely didn’t mean precise, actual wanting to experience pregnancy and childbirth type envy.  I was referring more to the control aspect and the importance to a society that comes with it.

Comment #36: Tabbycat, Sovereign of Sushi and Sashimi  on  02/20  at  03:41 AM

I think you’re putting too much logic into it Spiffy. Patriarchy means constantly exerting control while being constantly dissatisfied with your lack of control. In that mindset, gestational abilities are a thing of absolute women’s power because a man cannot have complete control over it; you cannot just order your wife to get/not get pregnant, or command the gender/number of progeny. You can’t really dictate biological processes. They resent a woman (douche-nozzle thinking precludes alternate genders) having any say in the matter because in their minds she already has all the say because he cannot make her ovulate/miscarry/whatever upon command. Throw in some envy over how much attention from everyone a woman gets when pregnant on top of anxiety about the influence your wife will have in your children’s life now that you’ve forced her entirely into a domestic sphere, and is it any wonder why a petty control freak would on some level want to do it themselves and be resentful that they can’t? Especially when it gives them a good excuse to play the martyr to cover their spite.

Comment #37: scrumby  on  02/20  at  04:13 AM

In that mindset, gestational abilities are a thing of absolute women’s power because a man cannot have complete control over it; you cannot just order your wife to get/not get pregnant, or command the gender/number of progeny. You can’t really dictate biological processes.

This.  Scrumby said it better than I did.

Comment #38: Tabbycat, Sovereign of Sushi and Sashimi  on  02/20  at  04:35 AM

Patriarchy means constantly exerting control while being constantly dissatisfied with your lack of control.

And also being pissed off that objective reality doesn’t seem to agree that you deserve everything you want because you’re a MAN, and thus better and smarter and more awesome than any woman could hope to be. And on top of that, women don’t even seem to like you that much, and probably wouldn’t even have sex with you if they had their way. It’s just not fair. Why don’t you get to be James Bond?

Comment #39: junk science  on  02/20  at  10:59 AM

“Why don’t you get to be James Bond?”

...something I’ve asked myself more than once…

*smile*

Comment #40: MikeEss  on  02/20  at  11:20 AM

Not just James Bond, James Bond with a wife waiting for you to rub your back and get you a beer when you come back from a mission.

I think scrumby’s point can be generalized: the thing about patriarchy and other similar ideologies (OK, they’re all really patriarchy underneath) is that 99 and 44/100 percent won’t do. Any deviation from getting what you want when you want it, no matter how rare or minor, constitutes LOSING and must not be tolerated. It’s not just that you get your stuff, it’s that anyone else having their stuff is unacceptable.

Which is pretty remarkable, considering that our 3-year-old is (barely) past that stage.

Comment #41: paul  on  02/20  at  11:36 AM

Yes, and as soon as it is made explicit that this is the question, the conservative viewpoint is revealed as absurd. What conservatives need to justify their social policies is not just that women are different, but that they are so different that they do not warrant (and indeed do not even really need or want) autonomy, dignity, bodily and economic security, and the opportunity to pursue happiness and meaning. To think that about women is really to deny that they are human beings. But manifestly, they are human. And so writers like Poulos have to obscure the actual content of their view with gibberish, grand-standing and other distractions.

It’s also revealed as absurd because what they’re constantly doing is erecting social institutions and demanding that parents raise their kids in such a way as to force either gender to live life the way they claim men and women will naturally live life. Almost nobody needs the all-powerful ruler of the universe’s input to love their children and feed them often. People do seem to need that and more to fulfill gender roles.

Comment #42: witless chum  on  02/20  at  12:34 PM

Sara Robinson did a great, in-depth discussion on this very topic on Alternet last week. Part of her examination of the issue is just what a huge sea-change reliable contraception is.

Comment #43: Vir Modestus  on  02/20  at  12:55 PM

...and Poe’s Law strikes again…

Oh shit, that was actually meant to be taken seriously, not as sarcasm.

I’m not sure, but I suspect that my sarcasm

And now, The Truth from the One True Dude:

was too dessicated for clarity.  Sorry about that.

I had read this passage, 1 Timothy, quite a bit during the Bad Old Days of my Religious Rightness, but not for a long time.  Thinking back, it seemed relevant, and reading it again, it seemed a succinct summary of how the RR thinks about wimminfolk.

I always had a good deal of cognitive dissonance about this, indeed about the whole Bibble, and my family still devotes a good deal of effort to rationalizing theirs.  You might think that Sarah Palin, Michele Bachmann, et.al. would have trouble with 1 Tim too.

Comment #44: gaillardia  on  02/20  at  01:01 PM

Tabbycat @ 25:  If you have any left over white wine (yeah, yeah, I know that’s not a likely thing) or are opening a new one, a bit of a dry to medium white wine is a great addition to chicken steamed in a tight pot or soup.  Like burgendy is a nice addition to a beef, lamb or goat dish.

Comment #45: helen w. h.  on  02/20  at  02:33 PM

So many levels of stupid, mean, and petty for the anti-repro rights dudes! I am loving all these analyses.

One thing that I don’t think has been explicitly brought up in this thread yet: if these anti-bc dudes are the same dudes who completely confuse sexual desire with entitlement to be a harassing jackass (you know, the ones who say that feminism is about demonizing male sexuality and that anti-sexual harassment policies ask men to not be heterosexual anymore), then there is the usual reciprocity fear: If women have sexual desires, like men, then that means that either it would be justified for women to treat them the way they treat women, or it is not justified for them to treat women the way they are currently doing (i.e., shitty).

It is all very similar to that “Homophobia is the fear of men treating them the way they treat women” thing that I know has definitely been discussed here before. Particularly since the two tend to go together.

Who would have thought that constantly shaming women into spending their lives being desirable and attractive to men would result in women actually making themselves desirable and attractive? Who would have thought letting men believe women don’t care about a man’s looks would lead to the classic smelly, slovenly Nice Guy look? Straight d00d logic at its finest: force women to be good catches, and then complain that they’re better catches than you are.

The “but women are just hotter than men” thing pisses me right the fuck off, too. Women, as a class, spend so much more time and effort and money on being hot than men do; I’d fucking HOPE we’re hotter! It’s the “just” that makes me want to kick someone, or not shower for a week and sit on the couch drinking beer and judging Charlie Hunnam’s butt, whichever will upset them more.

Comment #46: thecynicalromantic  on  02/20  at  11:40 PM

If women have sexual desires, like men, then that means that either it would be justified for women to treat them the way they treat women, or it is not justified for them to treat women the way they are currently doing (i.e., shitty).

But that would be totally fucking awesome, since it’s really only hot chicks you’re talking about, right? Ugly, nasty bitches don’t have sexual desire, so they’d leave us alone, right? Sweet.

Comment #47: junk science  on  02/21  at  12:13 PM

I wonder too if they feel that men (hetro) are emasculated because sex may make him feel all mushy and sweet towards his partner? You know all those icky girly feelings Real Men (tm) don’t have.

Comment #48: pitbullgirl65  on  02/21  at  03:40 PM
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