Nothing much else to say other than yes and right on.

Also, we’ve been here before with shows that have gay-content or gay-people. I don’t think atheists should support the ability of a few assholes with email to make others invisible.

I think it’s also the kind of Muslims they chose to portray that’s caused the problems.

I don’t know much about the show, but wikipedia says that it’s following a group of Lebanese-American families in Detroit.  I suspect that’s the real problem.  If this were a show about Malaysians, Sudanese, or American members of the Nation of Islam, some conservatives would hate this show, sure.  But there wouldn’t be this kind of backlash.

It’s because it’s ARAB Muslims that they hate it, because of the perceived ethnic conflict between European white people and Arabs, many of whom are Muslim.  Religion plays a part, but the hate would still be there even if they were all Christians.  Bigots are much more likely to yowl about camels, towels on the head, and ululation than any of the actual tenets of Islam.

Religion plays a part, but the root of this is still just racial bigotry.  So you can also stand up for this TV show to stand up against racism.

The more you’re exposed to competing faith-based claims about the world, the more likely you are to decide that none of them actually has the answers.

I think it’s much more common for people who realize that Muslims and Jews aren’t actual demons but people pretty much just like them to say, “we all worship the same God in different ways.”

Clearly this makes no sense if God’s telling people different things, but the answer here is a kind of Rashomoning of God where different people can see a different God but at heart it all is the same, because mystery and God and all things possible blargle!

I’m not an atheist blogger that many people know about, but I put my two cents in today.

What really strikes me here is that FFA is so openly proclaiming their love of prejudice and xenophobia, and their paralyzing fear that some people might start thinking that American Muslims are not a problem. They’re not even trying to hide their agenda against religious tolerance and acceptance of minority groups. “Look at us, we’re fearmongering racists and we want you to be hateful just like us!” Right out there for all the world to see.

Greg Laden over on freethoughtblogs has made a couple of posts about this. Since he has other bloggers on the site might as well.

I am an atheist, and one of my best friends is a woman who wears hijab.  Also, I work with a group of men and women who are deeply religious (exonerated death row survivors), and do active outreach to the faith-based community.  The progressive Evangelicals I work with are kick-ass, and have no problem with my atheism. I do get a bit of “weird” from the death row survivors, but not much (for many of them, they truly believe it was their faith that kept them from committing suicide when family, friends and wives either died or abandoned them while on death row, and when the torture and solitary confinement became too much to bear.)  I also used to work closely with Muslim students at an Ivy League.  Never a peep out of them about my beliefs, and I am still good friends with some of them. 

I do believe this is because we view each other and have gotten to know and care about each other as individuals and as real live human beings.  So yeah, that is what these hateful assholes are truly afraid of - actually seeing Muslims (and, gasp, Muslim Arabs) in the U.S. as individuals. And they can’t have that, because then where would their hate go?  Gotta have that hate on to be the real Xtians and ‘Murkins, and that cognitive dissonance would make their bigoted pinheads explode.

It is no doubt important to be against this boycott, because this is pretty clearly fundamentalists trying to silence anything that doesn’t fit in their narrow worldview.

It is also a good opportunity to watch and be able to more accurately critisize Islam from a feminist/secularist/democratic perspective.

Take this for instance; the old fundamentalist whine that Saudi-arabia doesn’t have any churches so why should we allow mosques here? Well, dear fundie. Because Saudi-arabia is a horrible dictatorship and a good example of how wrong things can go if you give religion too much power. You want this country to be better than Saudi? Do we become better than them by copying them or by being more tolerant and allowing the free market of ideas to flourish?

Atheists aren’t a religion, I feel this can’t be said enough.  It’s a vague coalition of ideologies loosely tied together in their disillusionment of religions.  Being an Atheist is more akin to being a moose club member than being a christian.  This is where the situation stems that defending one religion against another bigotry is sanctimonious in their eyes.  In most cases American Atheists are just burnt out Christians who hate the hypocrisy of the organized churches and stand in opposition to all faith.  This is exactly why they’re never going to come to the aid of Muslim believers.  The enemy of my enemy isn’t my friend, least not in the sense Ms. Marcotte is trying to persuade it to be. 

Then again I didn’t grow up in an absolutist household and was taught from day one that religion gets some things right and blows others completely.  Call it a rationalization or not, it helps me accept the reality that I can’t say just because humans say something doesn’t make it not true.  I feel that’s sorta why most Atheists tend to come from this more staunch protestant background of absolutist ideals…

Eh, I don’t think that’s as big a distinction as you think Dopus, in the minds of the average idiot, even the well intentioned average idiot, Arab=Muslim. They are not distinct categories in the American mind. Afghans, Iranians and Indonesians are all “Arabs” who show “Arab tendencies”.

You’re completely wrong, Xeranar. Atheists constantly come to the aid of muslims. Take that whole Ground Zero Mosque that was neither at Ground Zero nor a mosque. All the well known athiests lined up to defend freedom of religion.

I think it’s much more common for people who realize that Muslims and Jews aren’t actual demons but people pretty much just like them to say, “we all worship the same God in different ways.”

Pretty much. It’s all different “interpretations” of the same “truth.” Pluralism can strip away the trappings of many religions by making people want to pare them down to their “essence,” but the god idea generally stays intact, even if “god” gets watered down to “the meaning of life” or whatever lets the average believer sleep at night.

Plus, like I said at XX Factor, all of us benefit if non-exploitative reality TV aimed at actually educating people gets produced, instead of the crap that fills the airwaves now.

I’m so disgusted by TLC-style reality TV that I honestly haven’t given this show a first look.  Is it really a show aimed at educating people?  Or is it just Kuddling with the Kardashians staring ladies in head scarves?  If this is classic TLC sickeningly sweet mind-numbing “family” television, I’ll pass on supporting it just because I can’t stand anything these low-budget cable channels (or even the high budget ones).

If you want to learn about Islam, go visit a library.  I really don’t see the value of Disney-fication of Lebanese immigrants.  It white-washes genuine problems in the religion while portraying the immigrants as Leave-it-to-Beaver caricatures of real people.

No thank you.

This actually is one of those times when providing Lowes with feedback might do some good.  Their customer feedback form is pretty easy to find.

I was looking back at a really old blog post that I did, and found a relevant story.  Back in 2004, the FCC levied a huge fine against Fox for an allegedly “indecent” commercial for one of their programs.  After some digging, it turns out that the FCC received a grand total of 90 complaints filed by 23 people.  And of those 23, most were copy/paste jobs from someone else’s angry letter.

I don’t know how many complaints Lowe’s got, but it seems that it really doesn’t take a lot of outraged mail to scare people.

I suspect there’s two reasons that Christian groups oppose All-American Muslim. One is that they hate Muslims, and fear that their followers might feel their bigotry lessen in face of evidence that Muslims are mostly ordinary and downright boring folks like the rest of us. But the other is that they fear their followers discovering that perfectly nice, normal people believe in Islam in the same way that Christians believe in Christianity.

I suspect there’s yet a third reason, too: the most extreme fundamentalist Christians look at Muslims and see another group trying to horn in on their religious-totalitarianism action.

It’s always been remarkable to me that if you strip the specific faith-identifying words out of the rhetoric spewed by Muslim fascists and Christian fascists, it’s virtually impossible to tell the difference.

@4: Absolutely. But it’s definitely a realization that shakes people, and a percentage of them will lose faith altogether.

Zif, that YOU don’t want to watch it—-and it’s not my cup of tea, either—-doesn’t mean it’s useless. I’m a HUGE fan of packaging the same information in different media to reach different audiences. The Christian right isn’t afraid of a show because they think it will languish unwatched while people instead choose to read books, you know. A lot of people watch reality TV. That I don’t watch it doesn’t mean it’s not in my interest to have others watching a better quality reality TV should they watch it. It just raises the general intelligence level of the nation.

@3

You’re partly right, I think. It’s the combination of them being both Arab and Muslim. If they were Christian Arabs I think the reaction would be about the same as if they were white Muslims.

Jake, according to studies that have been done on the subject, a letter or bad report about a business can represent 10 to 100 people who won’t necessarily write a letter to complain but will boycott a business because of this or that issue said letter represents.  Sometimes people won’t be vocal about an issue because of the profession they are in, or other circumstances of their life.

My late sister was a nursing instructor who almost felt ashamed to say that she boycotted Nestles’ because of the powdered infant formula in 3rd world countries issue, and was heartened to hear me tell her that not only was that her right to do as an American citizen, but that I had also boycotted them about the same issue.

Two other Freethought Bloggers, Assassin Actual and Altheian Worldview have also chimed in. The commenters complain that Lowe’s main competitor, Home Depot, donates to Republicans.

You’ll note that good wholesome American Muslims cause too much contraversy.

You’ll never see the story of Mohammed el Gorani in the American media.

I sent a short message to Lowe’s on their website.

@13: If you want to learn about Islam, go visit a library.

If you want to learn about what various people write about Islam, OK, the library is a good place to go.

If you want to learn about what Muslims (i.e., the people) are like in Real Life(tm), you have to get to know some.  (Just like if you want to learn about what real Atheists are like, you have to get to know some.)  You won’t learn how Muslim people act or live in a library—unless maybe it’s a library for Muslims.

Unfortunately, due to the stratification of USA society, and what I suspect is a certain reluctance on the part of many USA Muslims to risk bigoted reactions by being too out-of-the-closet with their faith, most of us do not have the opportunity to get to know Muslims in real life.  A TV show, even a glurgy one, is better than nothing.

Better is to make contact with some, but that often takes a lot of work. The UU congregation I’m involved with is trying to do that, but in one year, we’ve managed one get-together.  (We’ve had busy lives, as have the people in the Muslim group, especially since a number of them have family in Syria and have been understandably preoccupied with that.)

CREDO made up a petition: http://act.credoaction.com/campaign/lowes/

Any ideas why Lowes seems to be the only one taking heat for this? 

From WaPo:

The Florida Family Association, a Tampa Bay group, has led a campaign urging companies to pull ads on “All-American Muslim.” The FFA contends that 65 of 67 companies it has targeted have pulled their ads, including Bank of America, the Campbell Soup Co., Dell, Estee Lauder, General Motors, Goodyear, Green Mountain Coffee, McDonalds, Sears, and Wal-Mart.

Was theirs the only spokesperson who commented at all?

Personally, as a Jew, I am quite frightened by some of what the Family Research Council (or whatever they call themselves) was saying about All American Muslim: their spokesman made an allusion to 9/11 but the way it was phrased—something about people having deeply held “beliefs” about what some Muslims did and complaining how the show makes all Muslims seem good while we know some have done horrific things—it could have been a statement about Jews killing Jesus: “we have deeply held beliefs that some Jews have done some horrible things ...”.

In general, I find it amazing and frightening how much anti-Muslim prejudice is just warmed over anti-Semitism (I guess given the multiple meanings of the word “Semite”, it makes a strange sort of sense).  I find it sickening that people like Pam Gellar would engage in promulgating what really are classic anti-Semitic tropes, merely changing mentions of “Jews” to “Muslims”.

These folks need to be reminded, loudly and often, that the USA is not, in fact, a Christian nation.  Any excuse to do so (yet again) is a good thing and an opertunity that should not be squandered.

Also, many Muslims throughout the world celebrate Christmas.  I have a minimovie of a light fountain show to Christmas music that my spouse took at an Indonesian mall last year.  Indonesia, one of (if not the) most populous Muslim majority countries in the world.

I think Hemant Mehta covered this over at Friendly Atheist over the weekend.
@13 - You don’t have to watch it; I certainly won’t be watching it or any other idiotic reality show, but plenty of people who don’t know any muslims will watch it and realize that they are normal people just like everybody else, kind of like what “Little People Big World” did for little people, however saccharine it was. Luckily for them the bible doesn’t contain any condemnations of midgetry.

I wish there had been more of an outcry against that fucking Quiverfull family that wants every white American uterus to be treated like a clown car. (That’s on TLC, right?) There’s true religious extremism involved in that movement, and having 19 kids can’t be healthy.

If you want to learn about Islam, go visit a library.  I really don’t see the value of Disney-fication of Lebanese immigrants.  It white-washes genuine problems in the religion while portraying the immigrants as Leave-it-to-Beaver caricatures of real people.

My wife and I watched the first episode, primarily because it followed people in Dearborn, Michigan (which was created as a whites-only suburb of Detroit, primarily by former mayor Orville Hubbard. It’s too bad there’s probably not an afterlife, not least for the reason that I doubt Orvie would think much of of the Arabs of whatever religion overrunning his white paradise. It’s too bad he can’t see the mosques from hell) and we live in Kalamazoo.

The format was pretty much following these people going about their lives and also having talking head segments where the cast members debated various points of Islamic-ness. The main drama in episode one came from the lady on the left above whose fiancee was converting to Islam to marry her. It sounded like that was to please her family more than her, reading between the lines a bit.

It seems to be pushing the message that Muslims are people, too, but they also chose a seemingly diverse group who don’t all practice everything in the same way. Two of the women don’t cover their hair and the woman above on the left has a 10 or so year old son from a previous relationship. The other non-headscarf lady (I’m not recalling what people’s names were) was talking about her travails in trying to open a club in Dearborn, dealing with the sexism of her business partner and others. 

And honestly, having your religion portrayed as a soft-focus, good thing by the media is currently the province only of Christians and Jews in the U.S. I’d prefer religion got less of a pass in general, but if it’s good for the goose, it’s good for the Muslims.

Fuck Lowes, I’m glad I bought work gloves at a True Value hardware this weekend.

It’s little things like this and opposing the Cordoba House that convince me that the Christian Right is at war with moderate Islam while giving radical Islam a free pass.  Radical Islam is also at war with moderate Islam, so they and the Christians have something in common.

Yeah, exposing people to other religions does help lead them to atheism which is why I support more comparative religion courses in school.  I think that would be more of a “threat” to religion and Christianity than evolution class.  Also astronomy and geology are also big “threats” because they question the age of the Earth beyond the six days it says in the Bible.

I have loads of Muslim students, some covered, some not, from all parts of the Muslim world. I’ve got a great photo in my office of five of them, all covered, posing with guns after the Muslim Ladies’ Paintball Club placed second in the league finals. The five young women were all born in the USA; their families are from Malaysia, Pakistan, Syria, Somalia and Algeria. They all watched the show and harshly criticized it because all the families who covered were very conservative and all the ones who didn’t were liberal. They all felt that the show should have portrayed women who dress modestly but are open-minded and free-thinking. One of this group is a very avid feminist and only covers because she thinks it will make other covered women take feminism more seriously. At least two of the others do it because it was the only way to get their parents to send them to college.

Oh, and Lowe’s is a bunch of weenies.

Any ideas why Lowes seems to be the only one taking heat for this?

I think Lowe’s is the only company who confirmed that they actually yanked their advertising because of FFA pressure.  FFA claimed that 65 companies pulled their ads, but some of those companies have explicitly denied that (saying that they never had any advertising scheduled for that episode in the first place, for example) and it’s not clear where FFA got the number 65.

I’m not a big carer about random reality series, but it is valuable for us as liberals to keep in our back pockets the existence of the FFA’s explicit statement that they’re in favor of dehumanization and religious war.

They all watched the show and harshly criticized it because all the families who covered were very conservative and all the ones who didn’t were liberal. They all felt that the show should have portrayed women who dress modestly but are open-minded and free-thinking.
Comment #34: felagund on 12/13 at 11:41 AM

Did they think it was better than nothing, or that it should not have aired?  Because there are things I sometimes harshly criticize yet I think they are better than nothing (pharyngula blog for instance).

I’m a little disappointed that none of the atheist blogs I read have addressed the controversy

This atheist will give it a shot as soon as he has the time.  It’s not easy to find the time to write substantive posts when I commute to work in NYC and have 2 kids!

In the gaming industry, this is called ‘the vocal minority’.  You have a small percentage of people willing to be proactive in their views.  Those people are influential, but highly unrepresentative of the actual user-base.

This comes out most notably (for instance) with forums where a huge number of users are anti-fans, and hate your product and nothing you’ll do will help it; or where they’re fanatics who spend eight hours a day on your product.  Since most games aren’t billed by the hour, these customers don’t represent a large number of the actual customers - something less than one in ten WoW gamers ever raid and only a third PvP, for instance, although their numbers are starting to spread out more evenly.  But just because someone is vocal doesn’t mean they’re important.

So when you poll, it is important to avoid the vocal minority and select a group actually representative of the userbase.

And if you’re a company looking to avoid bad press - you need to look at the ethics of what you’re being asked to do.  I doubt any company would have pulled ads from any other ethnic show after being asked!  Why they were have thought that this opinion would help their bottom line I don’t know.

Credoaction is harvesting physical addresses without an opt-out, so no, I won’t sign their petition.

At least with Move-on’s I can opt out and have had experience with them culling duplicate emails.

And to expand on Dark Angel’s & Crissa’s points, for every cranky letter-writer, there are about a quarter million people who watched the show and liked it.

One of the benefits of atheism (possibly the only benefit) is getting to stay out of these religious squabbles.

One of the benefits of atheism (possibly the only benefit) is getting to stay out of these religious squabbles.

Except that in the actually existing world, if we want to have freedom of irreligion we have to support freedom of religion (i.e., Amanda’s point #1). I don’t know how an atheist could be anything but angry and alarmed about the cowardice of Lowe’s.

One of the benefits of being male is being able to stay out of women’s business, like abortion and birth control and stuff….

Wait, what? Or possibly this stuff affects us all, satanicpanic. It isn’t a squabble between religions. It’s a squabble between those of whatever viewpoint who support pluralism and Christian theocrats.

I can’t choose my gender, orientation or race.  I can choose my religion (or lack thereof).  Religion is nothing more than a set of ideas.  If you can’t defend them, then too bad.  If Lowe’s decided not to advertise on an Anti-Vaxx show, would you feel the same way?  What’s the difference? 

Now I know, some of this is tied to ethnicity, which is upsetting.  But that’s all I can really get upset about in this case.  There’s not really conclusive proof here of that though until Lowe’s refuses to advertise on a show called American Lebanese.

DAS, 27:

Personally, as a Jew, I am quite frightened by some of what the Family Research Council (or whatever they call themselves) was saying about All American Muslim

I see your point, but they can’t get too harsh on Judaism, even in code (contemporary Jews, perhaps, but not Judaism as a whole). Islam is seen as a “more different” religion than Judaism is.

That said, Jews as well as atheists benefit as much as Muslims from the existence of space to be not-Christian.

Yes, yes, yes Amanda.
@ #45 Satanicpanic: you’re missing the point. The fact that X-tain fundies were able and are able of influencing business AND goverenment by crap like this effects us all.  They have does this for years and frankly we need to fight back.

#47   I know what you’re saying.  Yes, the christers are all over, trying to force everyone to support their crappy religion.  And I understand that they’re trying to drive out all the other religions so they can monopolize the conversation.  BUT, one of the selling points of atheism is getting to look at both sides and go “haha, there they go again.  Look at the crazies!” and the relief I feel at not having to get into religious discussions.  I feel this is a stronger selling point for atheism than saying “well there’s a lot of religions out there and they don’t agree, how can you choose?  you should just give up.”  A lot of people will take that as a challenge. 

Furthermore, and I am just pointing out reality, not saying it is a good thing, but the christers are already trying to paint muslims and atheists as being incahoots.  Now this is a bald faced lie, because I don’t care for islam any more than I care for any other religion.  I mean, I think it’s revolting when I see a man in Ed Hardy gear and jeans walking along with a woman in a full length dress and a headscarf.  I don’t want to stand up for that or even be associated with it.  Would muslims stand up for the rights of atheists?  I don’t know.  I doubt it.

If you won’t stand up for freedom of conscience for others, no matter how misguided you think their ideas are, you don’t deserve it for yourself.

I can’t choose my gender, orientation or race.  I can choose my religion (or lack thereof). 
Comment #45: Satanicpanic on 12/13 at 02:44 PM

Once you’re an adult, sure.  But until you’re old enough to rebel, and possibly forever if the brainwashing is strong enough, you really don’t choose your religion.  There’s a reason most people end up in the religion they were raised in, and it ain’t genetics.

Kids who are bullied because they are the “wrong” religion are no happier than kids who are bullied for their gender, orientation or race.

Satanicpanic, you can choose your religion for the time being. The fundies are pushing for a world in which you can choose their religion or choose to be pelted with rocks until you die, pursuant to Mosaic law. I don’t care whether muslims will support my right not to believe, and I know that the fundies won’t, but I’ll still support the rights of both groups to believe whatever nonsense they want, because that’s how a secular society works.

So let me get this straight, you’re asking me to defend other people’s right to brainwash people?

But this isn’t a law- this is the fundies exercising their freedom of conscience by complaining to Lowe’s about some other religion.  I mean, there’s no inherent right to have someone advertise on your TV show.  I just really don’t see the point of taking a side here.

So let me get this straight, you’re asking me to defend other people’s right to brainwash people?

You haven’t gotten it straight. If you want to put it in those terms, then the correct formulation is that we’re demanding that you defend people’s right not to be demonized because of the brainwashing to which they have been subjected. And again, by doing so you’re defending your OWN right not to be demonized.

But this isn’t a law- this is the fundies exercising their freedom of conscience by complaining to Lowe’s about some other religion.  I mean, there’s no inherent right to have someone advertise on your TV show.  I just really don’t see the point of taking a side here.

Practically, one of the ways we can maintain freedom of religion and secularism in this country is by making religious people understand that it protects them, too. The Baptists and such were huge for the separation of church and state when the country was founded, because they were afraid of the Anglicans who were the state church in some places using state power against them.

This would be a good way to demonstrate that to muslims and others who look at this and see fundy Christians trying to bully the rest of the cutlure into accomadating them. There doesn’t need to a right or a law involved.

I’d rather have an irreligious country, but next best would a country that respects freedom of belief and unbelief, in both the public and private sphere.

But the same could go for the fundies.  They’ve been brainwashed, ergo it’s ok for them to carry out their religious crusade against muslims.  I mean, we’re already in the weeds with the crazy people here, right, so where does it end?  I’m not going to go around mocking kids for believing crazy stuff, but adults- fair game.  Why would I want to restrict my own right to demonize religious people?  I’m an atheist, I think people who volunteer any religious information, be it by the clothes they wear or the things they say are silly.

For what it’s worth, while YES, fundy Christians have the right to pressure Lowe’s to remove their advertisement, and Lowe’s has the right to do so, anyone who disagrees with the demonization of Muslims is also free to express that disagreement - both with their words and with their wallet.

If you’d like to tell Lowe’s how you feel about this, here’s the form to use: http://www.lowes.com​/webapp/wcs/stores/s​ervlet/ContactUsCate​goryFAQPageView?stor​eId=10151&catalogId;=​10051&faqId=51

Remember, folks, we’ve got the same rights and freedoms as the bigots do.

They’ve been brainwashed, ergo it’s ok for them to carry out their religious crusade against muslims.

Are you really this stupid?  No, of course it’s not OK for [member of group A] to carry out crusades against [members of group B] for any values of A and B, and nobody said it was. It had better, however, be OK to simply BE A MEMBER of any such group as long as you’re not interfering with other people.  All minorities, including atheists, depend on that principle for protection.

I usually like Amanda Marcotte’s posts, but she is off base with this one.  Equating the fight over Lowe’s bigoted anti- Muslim ad-pull of a TLC reality series with those who are atheists, is comparing vastly disparate ideologies.  Unless one is an atheist, those who are religious, or even agnostic do not understand that atheism is at it’s core, the lack of ANY religious or even non-religious belief systems.
I could however, wholly support the rights of TLC, and the Muslim Americans who appear in their reality series—as a progressive/liberal.  I would also hazard a guess that atheists are most likely the more hated “group,” in the eyes of Christian bigots.  However, for atheists to somehow “join forces,” with those they believe to be erroneously religious (Muslim, Christian, whatever), is simply counterproductive.  It does not make sense in reality to compare the irreligious to the plight of American Muslims.  Also, why has there been no protests about the Duggar Quiverfull family TLC series?  I wonder if Lowe’s has any problem advertising on that hideous show?  I can safely assume that anyone who is an atheist would not support either of these shows.
As a liberal, I have already contacted Lowe’s and expressed my opposition to their advertising pull-out.  Just not as an atheist.

Yes, I really am this stupid.  Now that we’ve got that out of the way, are you saying that religious people shouldn’t to say “I object to these people’s views and I am going to tell you why”?  That’s all they’re doing here.  Call Lowe’s and say you object, and then Lowe’s can decide.  I’m just saying I don’t understand why atheists have a dog in this fight. 

I don’t see why dumb ideas plural beats dumb ideas singular.  I guess if you’re going that we can somehow dilute the stupid so that one doesn’t get too strong, I suppose that’s something.  I just don’t see that happening in practice.  More likely we’ll trade one set of funny hats for another.

The so-called paradox of freedom is the argument that freedom in the sense of absence of any constraining control must lead to very great restraint, since it makes the bully free to enslave the meek. The idea is, in a slightly different form, and with very different tendency, clearly expressed in Plato.

Less well known is the paradox of tolerance: Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.

Karl Popper,  The Open Society and Its Enemies

Working for minority rights and objecting when another minority is vilified is not making “common cause” in any sense that promotes Islam or any other religion. It’s simply common-sense self-defense for atheists as a despised minority ourselves. (As in, “They came for the X’s and I said nothing”.)

But by all means pupmunchkin is welcome to wear his liberal hat when he contacts Lowe’s, since protection for minorities is also a core liberal value.

Take that whole Ground Zero Mosque that was neither at Ground Zero nor a mosque. All the well known athiests lined up to defend freedom of religion.

. Librarian, I’m afraid that ain’t so: IIRC, Sam Harris and Jerry Coyne were very critical of the “mosque” in question: there’s people in movement atheism who have an almost Gellerian attitude toward Muslims (Have you read “An Atheist’s Guide to Mohammedanism” by the editor of American Atheist? It’s Protocols of the Learned Elders-level stuff). I agree both with Amanda’s point about what atheists should support and pupmunch’s claim that opposition to Lowe’s is, in practice, more of a liberal thing.

“Atheists aren’t a religion, I feel this can’t be said enough.  It’s a vague coalition of ideologies loosely tied together in their disillusionment of religions.”—Xeranar, comment #9

I disagree. I was never raised with a religion, and it’s not disillusionment that makes me what I am but a simple lack of belief in something I can’t experience. I’m a bit jealous of religious people, as they have guidebooks for life and this weird crutch upon which to live. But I’m not jealous of the fact that I think they’re potentially insane. In a similar way, they pity me and just say I lack faith. But it’s not a lack of faith in a deity or magic or some sort of wind-up world that I have, it’s a simple calculation that says there’s no way that stuff can be true.

It’s not a disillusionment but a total rejection of religions that make atheists atheists. There’s nothing loose or tied about that. That’s just simply all it takes on an individual level.

But if religion is defined as a belief system that explains being, atheism says our existence is a coincidence. I don’t find that either frightening or wondrous. It just is. Is atheism a religion in the common sense? Not at all. But if conscious is what is protected in the ideal of “freedom of religion”, then atheism is just as strong as any other.

Why would you not want to defend a religious minority from bullying by the religious majority? I guess, since I am a humanist as well as an atheist, this seems like a no-brainer to me. This is where the humanism shows in the wash, and atheists who aren’t humanists demonstrate why they’re useless. People have the right to be utterly wrong about the nature of reality. They don’t have the right to harass and bully other people for being wrong about the nature of reality. Pretty simple.

“Why would I want to restrict my own right to demonize religious people?”

Because a decent person shouldn’t want to demonize any group of people. Criticizing their beliefs, fine, but demonzing them?

I’m a bit jealous of religious people, as they have guidebooks for life and this weird crutch upon which to live.

Don’t be. I have a lot more fun as an atheist, and I’m a lot happier. Which is of course one reason atheism is evil.

I firmly believe that a major reason non-belief is on the rise in the U.S. is because of our increasing religious diversity. The more you’re exposed to competing faith-based claims about the world, the more likely you are to decide that none of them actually has the answers. So, weird as it is to say this, I think that one of the best ways to grow the atheist movement is to educate more Americans about what non-Christian religions actually believe.

I think what particularly matters here is seeing it put into practice, either by getting to know people who belong to those religions IRL or seeing them on TV, as is the case here. I just know that right after I figured out I wasn’t a Christian - when I was about eight or so - I started reading about other religions and I remember how attractive they all looked on paper. This was less the case with Islam and more hte case with Hinduism - I liked the idea of rebelling against my fundamentalist Christian upbringing by believing in multiple Gods, they were all interesting, and the stuff about meditation and mysticism was particularly attractive. But once I started meeting people of those religions, when I switched to a Christian school to a public school with a lot of religious diversity (I grew up in the Detroit area, with its huge Middle-Eastern and South Asian populations), that was when I realized that, well, the average Hindu isn’t trying to levitate or anything, and also so many of my Muslim and Hindu classmates were just as dogmatic as the fundamentalist Christians I knew - they were just less pushy about it publicly since they knew they were minorities, but when you prodded them about it, it was clear that they looked down on people of other religions, too. I particularly remember having a crush on a boy who was Hindu and then finding out that he was really anti-Muslim, and had alienated one of his closest friends, who was Muslim, by directing anti-Islamic slurs at him, and how much that disillusioned me. And that was what led me to realizing that religion, not Christianity specifically, was the problem and the realization that I was an agnostic.

That should be “FROM a Christian school to a public school”

Anyway, I just finished reading The Marriage Plot and there’s a character in there who is interested in Christian mysticism, who takes an Eastern religions course where he ends up blowing apart the preconceptions of classmates who romanticize non-Western religions - for example, when they’d talk about how ridiculous Christian and Jewish mythology was, pointing out equally ridiculous things in Hindu or Buddhist mythology or, when trying to claim that Eastern religions were “more compassionate,” pointing out examples of Judeo-Christian charity as well as more oppressive aspects of Eastern religions (e.g. the caste system). Obviously he’s coming at it from a different angle, but I remember finding that part really amusing, having once been one of those people and finding them so grating today. I got it out of my system when I was in middle school, and it’s weird now that I’m in college to see classmates who are quick to point out the inconsistencies and oppressive aspects of Judeo-Christianity so quick to fall for the same bullshit when it comes from Hinduism or theistic Buddhism or Taoism or whatever.

Albert Cirrus @33

“It’s little things like this and opposing the Cordoba House that convince me that the Christian Right is at war with moderate Islam while giving radical Islam a free pass.  Radical Islam is also at war with moderate Islam, so they and the Christians have something in common.”

The Christian right, in their unholy alliance with neocon warmongers, NEEDS radical Islam because they need an enemy.  Remember how sad they were when the Cold War ended?  Even though the west won the Cold War when the USSR ceased to exist, its biggest supporters were disappointed because they no longer had a Satanic and powerful enemy persecuting them.  It didn’t take long for them to adopt Islam as their new Satanic enemy.

Erda, the Empress Dowager Cixi supported the Boxer Rebellion even though the Boxers made what would be to Western observers extravagant claims of supernatural powers, page 391:

Under any enlightened Sovereign these Boxers, with their ridiculous claims of supernatural powers, would most assuredly have been condemned to death long since. Is it not on record that the Han Dynasty met its end because of its belief in magicians, and in their power to confer invisibility? Was not the Sung Dynasty destroyed because the Emperor believed ridiculous stories about supernatural warriors clad in miraculous coats of mail?

Look up the Angel of Mons, which is the nearest Christian analog that I can think of right now.

I don’t see why dumb ideas plural beats dumb ideas singular. 
Comment #60: Satanicpanic on 12/13 at 08:32 PM

Because if everyone believes the same dumb thing, it’s hard to question it.  If there are lots of competing and irreconcilable dumb things, one might just say “God is not understandable” but one might also start thinking that the irreconcilable nature of God suggests there may not be a God after all.

Plus even if that doesn’t happen, one can potentially choose a God that is less harmful to oneself, one that doesn’t want gay people killed for example if one is gay or thinks gay people are okay just the way they are.

Those who are religious, or even agnostic do not understand that atheism is at it’s core, the lack of ANY religious or even non-religious belief systems.

“Non-religious belief systems” implies political ideologies and, in fact, the term “atheism” has nothing to do with how one feels about non-religious/non-spiritual matters. One can believe wholeheartedly in liberalism or conservatism or libertarianism or anarchism or whatever and still be an atheist. The key word in the term is “the-” which is a root meaning “relating to God.”

You also don’t seem to understand what “agnostic” means, either. It doesn’t mean wishy-washy, “maybe I believe in God but maybe I don’t.” It means that one believes the existence of God to be unknowable. So agnostics would also “lack any religious belief systems,” too. (Again, the term doesn’t say anything about non-religious belief systems.) It’s sometimes hard to understand because agnostic is a term a lot of self-proclaimed agnostics don’t understand either, and people use it who are “spiritual but not religious” or unsure of what they think about God. But that doesn’t change the actual meaning of the term, and by that definition, having a “religious belief system” and agnosticism are mutually exclusive.

I don’t think that’s as big a distinction as you think Dopus, in the minds of the average idiot, even the well intentioned average idiot, Arab=Muslim.

I think you are kind of making the same point.

The fact is that Indonesia is by far the most populous country in the world that could be described as “Muslim”, in the sense that that is the majority religion (the state itself being secular).  And Indonesians aren’t Arabs or Arab-like (in the way that ignorant people might look at, say, Iranians) even slightly.

The fact that the bigotry against Muslims is expressed as bigotry as bigotry against Arabs, when there are many Muslims who aren’t Arabs, and Arabs who aren’t Muslim, is a form of racism in itself.

Iranians are majority Persian though, not Arab.  Only about 2% are Arabs.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html

Yes, that’s what I meant - that ignorant people look at Iranians and think they are Arabs, when in fact they are Persians.