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Next entry: Friday Genius Ten “That’s Empowerful!” Edition Previous entry: Sex panic makes it hard to keep your stories straight

Why does Betty Draper have to make wingnuts feel guilty?

As Benjamin Schwartz no doubt knew would happen when he wrote this screed of feeling superior to the writers of “Mad Men”, conservatives would eat it up.  It was pitch perfect for conservative viewers, in that it dismisses the racism and sexism of the era as something from the fever dreams of sanctimonious liberals, and it scapegoats the character of Betty Draper and even the actress who plays her in order to assuage conservative guilt about wanting to return to an era when women were expected to be servile sexbots.  But it also praises the show, so that you don’t feel guilty for watching it.  Oh, I can’t imagine what it must be like to be a social conservative invested in that show.  You must flinch every time Betty walks onscreen, looking pained, bored, and miserable.  That she herself is a petulant brat doesn’t make up for that, because the show is making the point that oppression isn’t suddenly right because the oppressed aren’t perfect people.  And the show implies that certain ugly character traits are the result of oppressive systems, that Betty Draper is a miserable person because she’s been turned into one.  How dare the show suggest that bitchy women might be more pleasant if they weren’t treated like second class citizens?  And so Schwartz gave you an out: Betty’s character makes you uncomfortable because it’s not realistic, and January Jones is a bad actress, and women in the 50s were never bored because being someone’s sex-and-domestic appliance is what every woman really wants!  It’s not you, it’s January Jones and the evils of feminism.

Which is why I was so amused to see Rod Dreher swallow the bait so eagerly. (Via.)

As regular readers know, I’m a big fan of “Mad Men,” but I’ve not enjoyed this season. I don’t care for Betty Draper, and I think the more the serial drama spends time in Westchester, versus the Manhattan office, the draggier it gets. A few weeks back, I told my wife that if we hadn’t bought a season pass for all the episodes on iTunes, which is how we have to watch it in our house (we don’t get AMC on basic cable), I probably would have drifted away from it.

Color me unsurprised.  Dreher’s main thrust as a conservative is to be a religious conservative, i.e. invested in the idea of shoving women into the kitchen while being open to the idea that teaching women to read was a mistake. So I’ll bet that he dislikes watching Betty onscreen.  She’s what conservatives fantasize about—-a woman that’s completely and uncomplainingly absorbed the idea that her job is to live for her husband, to obey his every wish, to be sexually available and ready with a drink and dinner when you get home, no matter what hour it is—-and here the writers are asking you to care about her feelings.  That’s beside the point!  The whole point of having women in that role is so that you don’t have to care or worry about how they’re doing.  The whole point of constructing that role for women is so they chirpily make like they love their lot in life, so you the man can feel satisfied about your magnanimity while your slippers are being fetched for you.  Don and Betty’s marriage is exactly what the Rod Dreher’s of the world want for all of us, including the way that Don allows Betty to have control over little things so he can feel like they have some kind of partnership.  (She gets to decorate! And, as we learn, she really wishes that responsibilities at home were a shared thing.)  How dare the show suggest that this arrangement makes people unhappy, and women especially so?

And really, Schwartz’s contempt for the character and his scapegoating of the actress—-and especially the applause he got from social conservatives for it—-shows the underlying contempt for women in the paternalistic platitudes about how women were happier when being a housewife was mandatory. Dreher’s being upfront about it.  Asking us to spend time on the feelings and thoughts and fantasies of Betty Draper is boring, because the whole point of wives is that they’re in the background, making it possible for the real actors—-mostly men—-to make things happen. 

The conservative reaction to the Draper marriage shows exactly how effective that storyline is in making its point.  A lot of liberals, I’ve found, are bored with Betty for another reason entirely.  They can’t understand why she doesn’t just pick up and leave already, if she’s so unhappy.  We’re on the other side of it—-so feminist that it’s hard to wrap our minds around the psychology of someone who isn’t.  But conservatives flip the fuck out, get defensive and start scapegoating January Jones, going so far as to argue that her dull affect is evidence that she can’t act, when in fact it’s evidence that the actress is being fearless in her portrayal of someone whose entire personality has been flattened out by boredom.  That isn’t easy for an actress, you know.  Most actresses have an urge to be sparkling and charming in every role they play, even those that don’t call for it.  It’s because Hollywood is run by men, and you can get a lot farther being eye-catching and charming and making men think that they want to be around you.  That Jones, who is very beautiful, is willing to be off-putting onscreen is brave.  That she spends a lot of time onscreen making you wish she was far away is the fucking point.  She’s supposed to make you uncomfortable.


The rest of Dreher’s post is about how “Mad Men” is meanie mean stuff for making him feel like the 50s weren’t so great after all.  He gets so worked up about how everything would have been better without equality movements, that he actually writes an apology for segregation:

One more thing: You know what I would like to see? A period drama like “Mad Men” set in a black community around the same time period—a middle-class black neighborhood in Washington, DC, say, in the final years of segregation, as the civil rights movement gained steam. Once when I lived in DC I took a cab ride with an older black gentleman driver. We passed by a desolate stretch of Northeast, and he talked about how when he was a young man, all this was thriving. He said to me that believe it or not, life was pretty good in some respects under segregation. That old man was not wishing for the return of segregation. But he was acknowledging the bitter truth that all the gains in freedom his community made in the Sixties also occasioned some fairly catastrophic losses.

I don’t doubt that happened, but Dreher’s missing the point.  Greater freedom was not the cause of economic problems, as he implies.  It was a lot of things, but part of it included the conservative backlash that resulted in economic policies that effectively bankrupted working class people who had seen their fortunes rise under liberal policies.  That said, I think Dreher is going to like “Mad Men” even less going forward, since the show is fixing to be an examination of the mentality not of the people that worked so hard for change in the 60s, but of the people who freaked out at change and retaliated by voting in Nixon and then Reagan, and who are now the people screeching about health care reform while waving Confederate flags.

Personally, I love how the show delves into the domestic sphere.  Despite the domestic settings that are common on most TV shows, there’s very little examination of the complexity of domestic life and politics.  It’s usually boiled down to cheap jokes about the war between the sexes, or ignored completely.  “Mad Men” seems novel in many ways just for showing that domestic life is more important to Men of the World than is usually polite to let on.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 12:36 PM • (114) Comments

Damn you, Marcotte. I’m trying to get some work done. Stop writing awesome posts about Mad Men.

Comment #1: Outlander  on  11/05  at  01:38 PM

I think the more the serial drama spends time in Westchester, versus the Manhattan office, the draggier it gets.

The whistling sound you heard as you read that was the point of the Matt Weiner’s creative decision flying over Rod Dreher’s head.

But he was acknowledging the bitter truth that all the gains in freedom his community made in the Sixties also occasioned some fairly catastrophic losses for privileged WASP males.

FTFY, Roddy.

<blockquoteThat she spends a lot of time onscreen making you wish she was far away is the fucking point.  She’s supposed to make you uncomfortable.</blockquote>

It’s the same sense you get watching a lion pacing in its cage in a Mad Men era zoo.

Comment #2: Gracchus.  on  11/05  at  01:43 PM

Oh, I can’t imagine what it must be like to be a social conservative invested in that show.  You must flinch every time Betty walks onscreen, looking pained, bored, and miserable.

And they better not make everything “all better” by letting her get feministerized!  As long as the show stays dark, then it’s okay to show second-class citizens getting their civil rights.  You know, as long as they show those rights didn’t actually make them happy or anything.

Why o why can’t we go back to “Leave it to Beaver"land where women knew their place and black people just never made it on screen at all?

Comment #3: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/05  at  02:10 PM

“He said to me that believe it or not, life was pretty good in some respects under segregation.”

There was a small, almost throw-away bit in the film Sunshine State in which an older black character talks about businesses under segregation, and how the social/legal apparatus that kept WASPs and everyone else from mixing ensured that a lot of what wealth there was in the black community stayed in the black community.  With desegregation came a sort of colonialism-writ-small, with minority businesses being undercut, profits leeched out of the community, and non-whites being shut out of ownership and relegated to the role of replaceable wage-slaves.  I don’t think the take-away message was supposed to be “Damn desegregation for taking our stores away!”.

Comment #4: preying mantis  on  11/05  at  02:18 PM

From Schwartz:

Even worse, that stance evokes and encourages the condescension of posterity

Not finished yet, but sweet plagiarism of E.P. Thompson to make pretty much the opposite point.

Comment #5: themmases  on  11/05  at  02:23 PM

Amanda,
Your writing on Mad Men is just fantastic. Absolutely amazing. And this takedown of Rod’s perspective is brilliant. You make my day.

aimai

Comment #6: aimai  on  11/05  at  02:26 PM

Ehrenhalt points out that the Fifties we all long for, of cohesive communities, clear standards, better behavior, was purchased at a price in personal autonomy that few of us today would be willing to pay .... And yet, as Ehrenhalt cannily observes, the kind of people who escaped those sorts of places and went on to write films, plays and books about them were typically unhappy rebels.

Is he expressing amazement over the fact that, in a society with standards that most people would find unpalatable, art gets produced by people that find it unpalatable?

What would you expect, exactly?

Comment #7: ballast  on  11/05  at  02:31 PM

OK. You got me. I am actually going to have to watch this show now. I have resisted as I don’t have time to get involved in the lives of fictional people. (The Wire took too much out of me) But I am willing to make an exception just so I can see what this anti-June Cleaver character is all about. She sounds really refreshing to me. Like someone in prime time TV finally got the memo and is trying to give an honest portrayal of the lives of women.

Comment #8: DC Fem  on  11/05  at  02:35 PM

DC Fem - Betty Draper’s often misinterpreted. Even a lot of feminists are annoyed by her learned helplessness, but obviously that’s pretty much the point. Get the first season DVDs and you’ll be hooked.

Comment #9: snobographer  on  11/05  at  02:44 PM

And yet, as Ehrenhalt cannily observes, the kind of people who escaped those sorts of places and went on to write films, plays and books about them were typically unhappy rebels.

And the unhappy creative types who stayed channeled their talent into advertising and the day’s MSM, either to realise the American Dream™ they played at disdaining (Don) or because they’re good at deluding themselves that it is high art (Paul) or because it’s the only way available to express their creativity (Peggy and, to a certain extent, Sal).

If Ehrenhalt doesn’t account for the huge cultural impact these non-rebel creatives had on the popular culture of the time and, judging by the fantasies of David Brooks, still have on ours, it’s less a canny observation than one which leaves out a heavy and pervasive counterweight to unhappy rebels like Yates and Cheever.

Comment #10: Gracchus.  on  11/05  at  02:46 PM

Well, be forewarned: She really is an unpleasant person.  She’s educated and a reader, but that doesn’t stop her from being an overgrown child who both wants her freedom and is afraid of it.  She’s an unflinching portrayal of someone who is battling with her twin desires to give in and be passive and to be someone with a life.  The only thing she’s sure of, and this is increasingly true over the course of the show, is that she misses Manhattan.

Comment #11: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/05  at  02:47 PM

@preying mantis: That cab driver bit reminded me of Sunshine State too.

Comment #12: Geocrackr  on  11/05  at  03:08 PM

But ... but ... Mad Men is fiction and it is therefore supposed to propigate and support an idealistic fantasy world!  They’re putting reality in it!  No faiiirrrrr!

Comment #13: Ms Kate  on  11/05  at  03:09 PM

It is painfully obvious that Betty is, at best, ambivalent about being a mother.  MM is about the best caveat against compulsory parenthood you will ever see.  The belief that everyone should have children and that doing so will transform you into a settled and unselfish person is possibly the most dangerous myth that exists in all of human thought.  However, I fear that the majority of viewers have a shallow appreciation of the show and are missing the larger messages.  So I’m kind of glad that uptight wingnuts are panicking and getting defensive because it draws attention to Weiner’s social themes that they might not have gotten otherwise.

Comment #14: DonnaDiva  on  11/05  at  03:23 PM

he was acknowledging the bitter truth that all the gains in freedom his community made in the Sixties also occasioned some fairly catastrophic losses for privileged WASP males.

No, actually, the point is that blacks had adapted to living in a segregated societyand desgregation meant that a lot of those adaptations were obsolete.  If you were the black owner of a restaurant in a black neighborhood with a black customer base, for example, desegregation meant that your customers were suddenly free to patronize other restaurants.  Some all-black businesses went under as a result of desgregation, and all had to try to adapt to new circumstances. 

This isn’t a legitimate argument at all agaisnt desegregation—but all changes, even changes for the better, will inevitably disrupt peoples’ lives.

Comment #15: rea  on  11/05  at  03:26 PM

As someone who has not watched the show and probably won’t start, since it sounds depression-inducing, I am somewhat confused about the conservative appeal. I understand it is a show about how shitty the 50s and early 60s were. Why would a conservative pick up this show at all? What is the awesome draw for someone who disagrees with the politics? The awesome drama of working at an ad agency?

Comment #16: Seebach  on  11/05  at  03:41 PM

Seebach, because conservatives aren’t immune to good storytelling.  In fact, that’s they they’re such aesthetic Stalinists.  They’re aware from personal experience how a well-done narrative can open your mind and get you to question things that you take for granted.

But the show is good, and so they want to watch.  I’ve certainly enjoyed narratives with politics I find disagreeable.

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/05  at  03:46 PM

I don’t think the show is that depressing, honestly.  The rise of Peggy Olson is a bright spot in the show, and they usually keep the jokes coming, even if they are often dark. When we have friends come over to watch, there’s a lot of laughing.  Plus, the attention to historical detail is so thorough and fascinating that it’s hard to turn away.

Comment #18: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/05  at  03:48 PM

Dreher and David Brooks really need to set up a play date where they can watch Happy Days reruns together and coo over the “good old days.”

Comment #19: damnedyankee  on  11/05  at  04:04 PM

No, actually, the point is that blacks had adapted to living in a segregated societyand desgregation meant that a lot of those adaptations were obsolete.

I should have been more clear. That may indeed have been the valid point of this “older black gentleman driver” (who might not even exist given the predilection of conservatives—even “crunchy” ones—to make stuff up). Dreher’s point in telling this story, on the other hand, was to give his fellow male WASP conservatives a nice little anecdote to help them “prove” that de-segregation was, on the balance, a bad thing for everyone.

Comment #20: Gracchus.  on  11/05  at  04:06 PM

Dreher’s point in telling this story, on the other hand, was to give his fellow male WASP conservatives a nice little anecdote to help them “prove” that de-segregation was, on the balance, a bad thing for everyone.

My greatest regret about not being a believer is not that there is no heaven for me, but the fact that there is no hell hot enough for these monsters.

Comment #21: Seebach  on  11/05  at  04:10 PM

Dreher’s point in telling this story, on the other hand, was to give his fellow male WASP conservatives a nice little anecdote to help them “prove” that de-segregation was, on the balance, a bad thing for everyone.

Shorter Rod Dreher:  White Daddy Knew Best after all.

Comment #22: Sour Kraut  on  11/05  at  04:16 PM

never mind that whenever the black community had accomplished anything of value, there were “riots” that destroyed whole communities based on lynching impulses of jealous whites - see also Tulsa - not to mention Corretta Scott King’s father’s continued struggle with whites destroying and burning successful businesses.

Comment #23: Ms Kate  on  11/05  at  04:18 PM

What is the awesome draw for someone who disagrees with the politics? The awesome drama of working at an ad agency?

Also, conservatives like Schwartz and Dreher are experts when it comes to filtering out messages they don’t like until they become impossible to ignore.

They likely got into the show not only because it was well produced and crafted, and not only because it was the subject water-cooler discussion for the educated elite they pretend not to be a part of, but because they thought that the depiction of the frat-boy behaviour at SC was being presented in a neutral way. They could look at the casual sexual harrassment and racism and think “ah, the good old days.”

However, as season 1’s focus on the identity crisis of the white male protagonist gave way to season 2’s focus on the empowerment of women, and season 3’s focus on the larger changes in the American social compact, I’d imagine they got a lot less comfortable with where the show was going.

Comment #24: Gracchus.  on  11/05  at  04:21 PM

This is the thing that drives me nuts about this damn show. I think at least half of its viewers miss the whole point and are just watching it for the fabulous outfits.
And let’s be honest here. It’s not just right-wingers. I’ve seen lots of people in leftish corners of the interwebs gush about what lovable scamps say Roger Sterling and Paul Kinsey are and then seethe contempt at Betty Draper for being vain and childish in the very next breath. All those guys - OMG Peter Campbell are you kidding me? - what are they if not vain and childish?
You can go to HuffPo and see plenty of Obama supporters guffawing at Roger Sterling’s post-coronary “greatest piece of ass” speech to Joan with nary a concern about the pain Christina Hendricks conveys in that scene.
I’d also be very confident taking bets that most of the people who work at whatever modern-day advertising agency produced that goddamn Clorox spot (“your mother did laundry, your grandmother did laundry…”) that airs every effing break during Mad Men didn’t vote for McCain.

Comment #25: snobographer  on  11/05  at  04:21 PM

I’ve seen lots of people in leftish corners of the interwebs gush about what lovable scamps say Roger Sterling and Paul Kinsey are and then seethe contempt at Betty Draper for being vain and childish in the very next breath.

I once knew a guy who loved Two and a Half Men, but he hated Seinfeld because he thought Elaine was too shallow (he never seemed to notice George’s ironic shallowness).  My point it that double standards are still really strong, even among liberals.  It’s ok for men to act one way, but horrifying for a woman to act the exact same way.

Comment #26: bananacat  on  11/05  at  04:32 PM

Seebach - they think they’re watching a more sophisticated version of Happy Days

Comment #27: snobographer  on  11/05  at  04:35 PM

Shit. damnedyankee beat me to it.

Comment #28: snobographer  on  11/05  at  04:37 PM

catgirl #26

I once knew a guy who loved Two and a Half Men, but he hated Seinfeld because he thought Elaine was too shallow (he never seemed to notice George’s ironic shallowness).

Yeah, this kind of thing. Everybody on Seinfeld is shallow. Elaine was probably the least shallow character on that show.

One scene or episode that really solidified for me the sexist prism through which people view Mad Men was the one where - I think this is 1st season - Roger invites himself to Don’s house for dinner at the last minute, makes a drunken pass at Betty in the kitchen, which Don walks in on, and then Don blames Betty for this and calls her a “little girl.” I was friggin’ stunned the next few days to find practically the entirety of the lefty blogosphere agreed with Don that Betty somehow made Roger hit on her or that she was flirting with Roger any more than Don had been flirting with Roger all night.

Comment #29: snobographer  on  11/05  at  04:51 PM

Here I go again, being your literal time machine, but I was born in 1950 and so saw the damage caused by (what Friedan later named) the Feminine Mystique writ large in my own family.

I’ve written about this before, but my mother literally died of it: a suicide at age 40, three years before she would have been able to read the book that gave a name to her Problem with No Name.

I grew up seeing so many versions of that ‘50s forced-normalcy marriage in my own extended family that I became terminally marriage averse.

The conservatives that look back lovingly as the supposed “Happy Days” paradise are precisely those who would be nostalgiac for segregation, primarily white men harkening back to when they got the most bang for their buck in the ability to oppress others.

The female conservatives who write obsessively in favor of that “Happy Days” role for women, often have no intention of living that subjugation themselves, but long for the day when servants were cheap.

Comment #30: judybrowni  on  11/05  at  04:58 PM

I kind of dread Betty.

I don’t dislike the Betty storyline, its just doesn’t hook up with the other storylines all that often, so when I want to know more about what is happening with a different group of people it sometimes feels like a massive detour. When Pete was pressuring the student from downstairs at least he ran into Joan in that arc so it wasn’t like you were just watching him be a scumbag and there was a definite conclusion and outcome. When Betty meets republican guy I sit thinking why am I watching this. The bit where she finds the box and has the showdown with don,  the chair breaking scene and the bit in the first season where she obliquely lets don know she knows by telling the shrink were really gripping so I’m not saying she’s terrible. Its just when the plot to starts to heat up and then there is a betty sequence I find my heart rate decreasing and my urge to go make a cup of tea increasing. It takes forever for storyline to go anywhere. Its not bad acting or bad characterization its just at a much slower pace and that’s frustrating sometimes. Its like watching The Shield and then suddenly in the middle 10 minutes of The Wire. Crap analogy but there you go.

Comment #31: pharmakos  on  11/05  at  05:01 PM

Gross, people blamed Betty for Roger hitting on her?  Along the same vein, I was stunned by how many people thought Don’s public assault of Bobby was “sexy,” and how many people weren’t sure whether Joan had actually been raped by her fiance.

Comment #32: Blitzgal  on  11/05  at  05:02 PM

They can’t understand why she doesn’t just pick up and leave already, if she’s so unhappy. 

Leave and go where? I thought this was sort of covered the other week, when Betty talks to her dad’s lawyer and he points out that a divorce would impoverish her.

Comment #33: Molly, NYC  on  11/05  at  05:03 PM

“Yeah, this kind of thing. Everybody on Seinfeld is shallow. Elaine was probably the least shallow character on that show.”

I’d have gone with Kramer, but that’s only because I don’t remember him being more than ordinarily shallow, which can’t really hold a candle to the megawatt shallowness that Jerry, George, and Elaine were all rocking on a daily basis.  I’m a little stunned by the sheer effort it would take to ignore the behavior of Jerry and George in order to point to Elaine as “the shallow one,” though.  It’s like watching It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia and being turned off because Dee behaves badly.

Comment #34: preying mantis  on  11/05  at  05:04 PM

As for the lefty men blaming Betty for Roger’s pass: yeah, I’ve run across those types myself in real life.

Betty in the untenable position of being “nice” to the boss, and then blamed for her harassment, is the situation the way MRAs always see it, and lefty men without the necessary empathy gene for women’s reality.

It’s a Cover My Ass situation: for whatever harassment they have and will do as men more concerned with what they do to get what they want.

Comment #35: judybrowni  on  11/05  at  05:06 PM

Nostalgia is a longing for a past which never existed.  People as a rule only remember snippets of their own pasts, a slideshow which they edit to show only the golden (or horrible) moments, and abstract from those a belief that things were “better” and “simpler.”  Or, alternatively, someone not born in a particular era looks back and imagines it to be innocent when compared to the corruption of their own time.  I see this all the time with 20-something people looking back at the ‘70s and ‘80s as an idyll - and I remember my mother reacting with disgust at the ‘50s Happy Days schmaltz with the same growled response, “it wasn’t like that.”

What it boils down to is that there is a strong impluse amongst many people to want to live like children, where Mommy and Daddy never fight and there’s no hard decisions and you never have to worry about anything.  Nostalgia-based Conservatism is infantilism - someone or something is going to Take Care Of You because you’re such a wonderful person.

The bitter reality is that every era of history sucked in its own way.  Living in the here and now, however, we are starting to understand that the path to making the present suck less is not to indulge in fuzzy backwards visions of paradise but to fix the problems which affect us now.

Comment #36: tannenburg  on  11/05  at  05:12 PM

MM is about the best caveat against compulsory parenthood you will ever see. 

DonnaDiva - I’m 56, so my contemporaries and I were conceived in the era just before modern birth control methods became available.  And what I’ve noticed is that our parents’ attitude about being parents is that they commonly felt they were roped into it—not just the work and expense, but the expectation that they were expected to act like Ozzie and Harriet when they thought of themselves as James Dean and Betty Page.  What stand-up comics call “too hip for the room.”

As a result, Betty’s disconnect from being a mother strikes me as spot-on.

Comment #37: Molly, NYC  on  11/05  at  05:18 PM

Lefty women too, judybrowni. I’ve seen this on obstensible feminist blogs. She was acting all interested in Roger’s war stories, that hussy. She was a bit effervescent in that scene, but she was drinking wine and all she had to eat was some lettuce because she had to give her meal over to Roger. Plus I figured she was a little giddy about getting to hang out with grown-ups for a change and do the charming wife bit she’d trained her whole life for.
But noooo, she’s just looking for affirmation of her sex-appeal! That narcissistic brat! And Don’s and Roger’s motivations for banging anything with a pulse is ... ?

Comment #38: snobographer  on  11/05  at  05:23 PM

I have a larger problem with Dreher: he doesn’t get AMC on basic cable.  I just looked up the channel lineup for Comcast (the provider in my area) to see what “basic” cable is, and AMC isn’t on it.  Or anything else for that matter.  “Basic” Comcast is the full network suite, the Latin American networks that broadcast in the US (Telemundo, Univision, Azteca), and the HD versions of them.

Dreher needs to either pony up for the equivalent of “Expanded Basic” (ESPN, AMC, TNT, etc - what someone considers “Cable TV”) or he should drop it all together.  He can get the HD network feeds without cable, if that’s what his issue is.

And totally concur with you, tannenburg.  If you were a minority, your opinions of the “Good Old Days” differs greatly.

Comment #39: bouj  on  11/05  at  05:28 PM

@pharmakos—I can understand dreading Betty because as Amanda has already pointed out, she’s not a pleasant person, she makes the viewer uncomfortable.  However, it’s interesting that you see her storylines as “detours.”  Detours from what exactly?  She’s a main character.

Comment #40: Sidewriter  on  11/05  at  05:28 PM

“And Don’s and Roger’s motivations for banging anything with a pulse is ... ? “

Biology, obviously.  men are just biologically force to biologically chase after every biological female in their biological area. So, we can’t expect men to not cheat - it’s biological! They have to!

Not women thought. Its disgusting when those sluts do it.

Comment #41: Gypsy Lee  on  11/05  at  05:31 PM

Betty irritated me until the Rome episode. Then it became clear: She’s smart and sophisticated, every bit the former model. Far more sophisticated than Don, who just looked like a graceless ass in Italy. Now she’s stuck in the burbs, with nothing interesting to do and only the dumpy, dumb women from her neighborhood to talk to. In that situation it’s a wonder she isn’t more bitchy.

I wonder, now that the 60s have started for real in the series, how many people will continue to like it. Because I’ve seen what others have: Even supposedly “liberal” people aren’t getting it. They still think it’s about swanky fashion and how cool it would be to have a wet bar and a giant couch in your office (it would, of course, but only in the abstract). The writers have beaten Don down heavily this season, making him extremely unattractive, emphasizing that he’s actually *old* and unhip, and his tricks are starting to fail. And still they don’t get it.

Comment #42: wapsie  on  11/05  at  05:36 PM

Gross, people blamed Betty for Roger hitting on her?

WTF?  Okay, I don’t know the show too well but—isn’t Roger her husband’s boss?  He literally has the power to ruin her family, so of *course* she has to be effervescent and find his stories fascinating.  She certainly can’t kick his shins and tell him off if he hits on her.  Don can’t give him a well-deserved punch without serious consequences.  So he dumps that anger on Betty. 

But it’s her fault for being all temptress-y and stuff.  Nice.

Comment #43: Sour Kraut  on  11/05  at  06:08 PM

this might be my favorite mad men post yet!  and wapsie, absolutely—i have tons of liberal friends who are into this show and some of them really seem to have that same attitude (designwankery! drinking constantly!  smoking constantly!  don draper is like omg so hot!).  it’s really weird to me.

Comment #44: chareth cutestory  on  11/05  at  06:11 PM

men are just biologically force to biologically chase after every biological female in their biological area. So, we can’t expect men to not cheat - it’s biological! They have to!

You know, *every* time I hear an argument like this presented (and of course I know you were being snarky—I’m more referring to when it’s serious), I can’t help but think, “And so we’re supposed to let you run the world… why?”

I mean, if men can’t help doing things, they have diminished capacity and should move aside so the people with self control, IE, women, can do the important things. After all, thus far we haven’t heard of a single female politician brought down by a sex scandal.

(I admit that if 50% of the world’s politicians were female, we probably *would*—it’s the intersection set of “older women are not attractive”, “older men are entitled to sex with young women”, “men with power and money are hot”, and the rarity of female politicians in the first place that explains why we haven’t had any. Adding more female politicians would certainly increase the chances of female politicians involved in sex scandals with male politicians. Wow, actually wouldn’t it be kind of awesome if there was a big scandal because two Congresspeople of opposite sex and parties were found screwing like bunnies in one of theirs office?)

Same thing with “well, what do women expect? Men are just likely to rape”—actually, in any situation other than women and men, when humans expect someone or something to be a predator, they seek to control its behavior with weaponry. Kill it outright if it’s an animal, or train it and kill it if it’s aggressive if it is a useful animal like a dog, or heavily restrict its activities if it’s a human. It’s only when the predator is men and the prey is women that the human prey are expected to change *their* behavior to avoid the predator; in all other cases, human prey expect to kill or control the predator to ensure their safety. So if men really can’t help raping, they need to lose a whole lot of basic human rights that are predicated on being rational beings who can prevent themselves from committing bad actions.

Of course, men *aren’t* biologically forced to chase tail, or commit rape, and *are* rational beings who can prevent themselves from committing bad actions… but the correct answer to “He can’t help being bad” is *always* “Then he should be killed, locked up, or otherwise restrained in his actions, because he can’t do it for himself.”

Comment #45: Alara J Rogers  on  11/05  at  06:31 PM

Some of us still remember how BAD everything smelled when most people were smoking in most places most of the time!

Comment #46: Ms Kate  on  11/05  at  06:44 PM

I should have been more clear. That may indeed have been the valid point of this “older black gentleman driver” (who might not even exist given the predilection of conservatives—even “crunchy” ones—to make stuff up). Dreher’s point in telling this story, on the other hand, was to give his fellow male WASP conservatives a nice little anecdote to help them “prove” that de-segregation was, on the balance, a bad thing for everyone.

Since using a story with a black person is a common conservative device to prove they’re sooo not racist, I think we should give this conservative ubiquity a name. How about..Fictional African American Conservative Construct or FAACC? Ohohoh we could even pronounce it like “fake” Two A’s makes a long A sound and two C’s have to make a hard K sound somewhere in some language…hmmm I think I’m reaching now.

Comment #47: shakahi  on  11/05  at  06:45 PM

And what I’ve noticed is that our parents’ attitude about being parents is that they commonly felt they were roped into it—not just the work and expense, but the expectation that they were expected to act like Ozzie and Harriet when they thought of themselves as James Dean and Betty Page.  What stand-up comics call “too hip for the room.”

As a result, Betty’s disconnect from being a mother strikes me as spot-on.

This.  What I find fascinating now is that the “you’re obligated to become a parent whether you like it or not” expectation that seems to have been very widespread in prior decades has been replaced with what often feels to me like a cult of “it’s super awesome to be a parent and you’ll never be happy without kids.”  Whatever delusions most of the Mad Men characters operate under, very few of them seem to think having kids solves anything or will make them happy.  (Trudy Campbell may be the exception to that, though she also appears to have recovered from it.  And at any rate, I am still not convinced she wanted kids for any other reason than her blue-blood obligation to perpetuate the line.)

In other words, once wide-spread, easily available, and effective birth control entered the picture, cultural conservatives were very successful in constructing this narrative that you’ll never be happy unless you reproduce like all the other people are doing.  I’ve seen so many people have kids because they think it’s their life’s ambition, or because (as someone else said) it will force their life to shape up and make sense…and too often, when it made no economic sense either.  The new narrative is in many ways worse:  you can at least be accepting of the “inevitability” of having kids….it’s quite another to have them and find out that not only were they not the solution to your problems, but actually the cause of many new ones.

Comment #48: Felix Culpa  on  11/05  at  06:46 PM

What I found amazing in Dreher’s cabbie anecdote is that he omits or is clueless as to the cause of the devastating riots in DC, which was, of course, MLK’s assassination.  It was not too much freedom that caused this spasm of self-destructive and carthitic violence—it was sheer anger and desperation at one more unforgivable act of violence perpetrated by a racist society.

I can attest to the devastating impact on the black commerical districts of the City.  I lived near both major corridors in the 1980s and they were wastelands—desolate and pretty damn violent (yet cheap).  The riots, coupled with white flight, really hurt large quadrants of DC.  It took the U Street corridor about thirty years to come back.  H Street NE has taken even longer, althouugh it does seem to be moving in that direction.

And yes, there were dislocations in the black entrepeneurial community because of desegregation.  If Dreher really believes that these outweighed the benefits of civil rights, he’s a bigger idiot than I aleady think—which would be impressive.

Comment #49: Sir Charles  on  11/05  at  06:56 PM

Alara, we did have one in the UK, an affair between (married) Conservative MP Edwina Curry and (also married) John Major, who later became Prime Minister. Neither of them lost their jobs over it though, because it didn’t come out until much later.

At the moment there is a Conservative MP who is facing de-selection because she had an affair with another married Conservative MP in 2006 (it came out back then, but the selection committee in her constituency want to de-select her for it now - don’t know what their hurry is, it’s a safe seat so maybe they’re just plain sexist and want it kept for a man). We’ll see how that one turns out, but it’s an interesting one because Diane Truss is actually young, intelligent, and capable - if we end up with the Tories in power then I’d rather it were people like her in parliament and not stuffy Old Boy’s Club types.

Oh by the way, needless to say her lover is not facing any comparable consequences.

One note on the post: why is it illustrated with a picture of Don, since it’s primarily about Betty?

Comment #51: MarinaS  on  11/05  at  07:42 PM

The female conservatives who write obsessively in favor of that “Happy Days” role for women, often have no intention of living that subjugation themselves, but long for the day when servants were cheap.

Serena Joys.

That character is one of the most awesome things in “A Handmaid’s Tale” b/c once her longed-for Gilead arrives, Serena Joy is no longer a TV star or a person with any power at all.  She’s a Wife, and since she’s infertile, she MUST have a Handmaid to do her duty for her.

She’s still evil and works what little power she can manage among the Wives, but she is forced to live the life she preached for others..

Comment #52: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/05  at  07:47 PM

Caren, it isn’t even clear if Serena Joy IS infertile ... because her handmaid couldn’t get raped into pregnancy either because the lord and master seems to be shooting blanks!

The presumption of infertility being the woman’s infertility is part of the whole mess!

Comment #53: Ms Kate  on  11/05  at  07:58 PM

Some of us still remember how BAD everything smelled when most people were smoking in most places most of the time!

I lived in NY when the smoking ban in restaurants and bars began, and then moved to Massachusetts, where they also have one.  I’ve recently moved to Tennessee. 

As far as I can tell, there are smoking and non-smoking bars here; I’m not clear on what the laws, if any, are about it.  Anyway, we go out once a week of so with Grolby’s grad student buddies, and a few weeks ago we went to a kind of divey bar after someone passed their qualifying exams.  It was a smoking bar, and oh my goodness, if my hair and jacket and scarf and clothes didn’t reek by the time we left.  I too had forgotten just how bad it was.

Comment #54: rowmyboat  on  11/05  at  08:04 PM

I wonder, now that the 60s have started for real in the series, how many people will continue to like it. Because I’ve seen what others have: Even supposedly “liberal” people aren’t getting it. They still think it’s about swanky fashion and how cool it would be to have a wet bar and a giant couch in your office (it would, of course, but only in the abstract). The writers have beaten Don down heavily this season, making him extremely unattractive, emphasizing that he’s actually *old* and unhip, and his tricks are starting to fail. And still they don’t get it.

I like the show for all of it:  the fashion, the wet bars in the offices, and the thought-provoking narrative.  I confess that when the early-60s “cool” fashion goes out of style in the show, I’ll miss it.

Comment #55: Linnaeus  on  11/05  at  08:05 PM

Folks, I hate to be the bearer of harsh reality but those of us who explore the social themes of MM are a tiny minority.  I friended the show on Facebook and it’s apparent from the comments (which are numerous) that the vast majority of viewers see it as a kitschy soap opera with great costumes and cool characters.  Here’s the comment that especially left me shaking my head:

I think Trudy is the best wife b/c Betty is a phyco (sic).

Maybe it’s having some kind of subconscious effect.  Which would be a neat instance of life imitating art - the show Mad Men manipulating those who watch it, kind of like how Sterling Cooper tries to manipulate consumers.

Comment #56: DonnaDiva  on  11/05  at  08:59 PM

WTF?  Okay, I don’t know the show too well but—isn’t Roger her husband’s boss?  He literally has the power to ruin her family, so of *course* she has to be effervescent and find his stories fascinating.  She certainly can’t kick his shins and tell him off if he hits on her.  Don can’t give him a well-deserved punch without serious consequences.  So he dumps that anger on Betty.

That’s exactly the way it goes down in the episode.  Roger drops by for dinner unannounced, and it’s clear that Betty is annoyed by it and only treats him politely because she considers it part of her job as a good housewife.  Then, after Roger gets drunk and makes an ass of himself, both Roger and Don heap the blame on her.  There’s little question that Don attacks Betty because he’s afraid to stand up to Roger.  (He does eventually hit back at Roger, but in an indirect, passive-aggressive way—one of the most amazing sequences in the first season.)

It was one of the first episodes that made me feel really sorry for Betty.  When she turns to Don for support and he tears into her, it’s like a slap in the face; you realize that part of the reason she’s so screwed up is that she has no friends, no one she can trust to stand by her.  And neither of the men cares about whether or not she actually led Roger on; she’s just a thing they’re fighting over.

Comment #57: Shaenon  on  11/05  at  09:37 PM

I don’t dislike the Betty storyline, its just doesn’t hook up with the other storylines all that often, so when I want to know more about what is happening with a different group of people it sometimes feels like a massive detour.
Comment #31: pharmakos on 11/05 at 04:01 PM

It doesn’t hook up with the other storylines because her character is isolated.  It’s part of the reality of being a housewife.  Like the schoolteacher, she lives in her own little Barbie box.  She gets taken out, played with, and put back away.

After all, thus far we haven’t heard of a single female politician brought down by a sex scandal.
Comment #45: Alara J Rogers on 11/05 at 05:31 PM

Well, Helen Chenoweth, maybe.

And I think there was some other woman also in that same geographic area (Idaho/Utah/Montana), but I can’t remember her name, and I think she actually got conned somehow.  I may be imagining that last one, I can’t seem to find it anywhere on teh intertubes…oh, wait: “In 2004, state Rep. Katherine Bryson of Utah was caught with a lover on a surveillance camera; her then husband set it up to catch a burglar, he said.” 

Hmm, still doesn’t fit my memory.  Maybe I just watch too many TV magazine shows.

Comment #58: oldfeminist  on  11/05  at  09:41 PM

@Sidewriter

She’s a detour from almost every other storyline on the show. She has scenes with Don, her family and lately republican guy. Even the people that she was regularly involved with have disappeared, the shrink the neighbor campaigning for Kennedy. Outside of Don its always some new secondary character she is involved with and everyone else is involved with the same secondary\primary characters for three seasons so their characters seem more central. She knows Roger, Jane, Pete, Peggy, The English, Hilton etc but her arcs never really take them in and its in the other stories that the most movement takes places. Betty’s arcs are intelligently written and interesting sure, they just move too slowly in comparison. Only Don’s story includes her regularly while let’s say Kinsey meets many more characters even if he is peripheral to what’s happening with them so even though he is probably a secondary character he feels more central to what’s going on than Betty does. We can see whatever is going on with him even if he is only in the background and when he is in the foreground we get an idea of what’s happening with let’s say Sal. Kinsey isn’t as well developed as Betty (I think, he probably has fewer minutes on screen) but because his story gets pushed on in scenes that have nothing to do with him when we do get a scene that has him in it, it feels we are already going at a good pace. When its Betty time I find the pace changes a lot and I resent (kind of a strong but it feels like the right word) that change. Its not a criticism of the character, I feel sad for Betty even when she says something grating like the “maybe civil rights will have to wait”. Its the disconnect from everything else and slow pace that break the immersion. 

Its a matter of degree as well. The Roger and Betty bit was pretty relevant for Don, Cooper and in the long run Mona (can’t remember if it was for Joan or not) so its not like she is always in her own universe. Apart from Don she doesn’t populate the same universe as anyone else and the show already has enough Don. Sure that’s part of the point of her character but it doesn’t necessarily make for good flow in a tv show.

Comment #59: pharmakos  on  11/05  at  09:43 PM

Caren, it isn’t even clear if Serena Joy IS infertile ... because her handmaid couldn’t get raped into pregnancy either because the lord and master seems to be shooting blanks!
The presumption of infertility being the woman’s infertility is part of the whole mess!

But of COURSE it is the WIFES’ fault…women can’t do anything right.  It actually ties in nicely with Don attacking Betty for “flirting” with his boss.

Comment #60: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/05  at  10:03 PM

Women in the 50s were never bored because being someone’s sex-and-domestic appliance is what every woman really wants!

My mom cranked out 5 kids between 1950-1959 and by the time I was a teenager, I now realize, she was *seething* with anger at the life she found herself stuck in.  It would come out in passive-aggressive ways like not giving a shit if she burned our dinner or refusing to clean the house for *gasp!* days at a time.  I still vividly remember the intense, bitter fights between her and Dad over her wanting to get a job because a) we could use the $ and b) we were all pretty self-sufficient and she was bored. “No wife of mine is going to work, what am I, a lousy provider?!?!” etc. 

What a waste of a life, all for a shitty, dumbass patriarchal system.

Comment #61: Henry Holland  on  11/05  at  10:23 PM

Oh, DonnaDiva, definitely don’t look at those Facebook comments. Try Basket of Kisses for more insightful posts and comments.

Comment #62: annejumps  on  11/05  at  11:36 PM

The irony is that when Betty DOES consider doing the grown-up thing, like aborting a third pregnancy because her marriage is on the verge of collapse—she gets treated like a child anyway.  Check out the second season where her (white, male) ob-gyn gives her a patronizing, finger wagging lecture on how “such options are for young girls who don’t have any other options.  Not for a married woman of means like you”.  Because all womenz love de baybeez, dontcha know, and baybeez fix all sorts of problems!

Comment #63: Blue Jean  on  11/06  at  12:40 AM

@oldfeminist—you hit the nail on the head.  Betty’s stories feel removed because she is isolated. Her storylines don’t encompass the other characters because she wouldn’t have much interaction with them.  Don gets to keep those worlds completely separate.

Betty’s character drives me crazy too, but I also love her story because I think it’s just so perfectly done.  I understand the feeling that her arcs slow down the movement of the show, but that implies that the other characters are central, and that her storylines just detract from them, just slow down the action the viewer really cares about.  But I see Betty as a central character, so her storylines are not “other;” they can’t detract from “the rest” of the show because they are the show, just as much as Don’s arcs are the show.

Comment #64: Sidewriter  on  11/06  at  01:01 AM

63-

Same thing when she tried to be a grown-up about ending the marriage this season. Her lawyer basically said that option was fundamentally impossible without becoming destitute and losing the kids (unless she becomes hyper-paranoid in order to catch Don’s infidelities) and when she confronted Don about it and how she feels, he basically told her to shut up and stop feeling like that.

It’s hard not to become childish, when trying to be a grown-up only makes them treat you more like a child or makes manifest how few real options you have.

Comment #65: Cerberus  on  11/06  at  01:03 AM

Shorter Rod Dreher: “Turn it off.”
Shorter Amanda Marcotte: “You can’t turn it off. It’s actually happening.”

Comment #66: Yamara  on  11/06  at  02:48 AM

The cabbie story does not indicate what happens when communities are desegregated. 

It indicates what happens when businesses in minority areas become targeted for investment by non-minorities—what happens when it’s okay to sell to minorities, when it’s okay to put your business in a minority area, but you still don’t live with them. 

Somewhat along the lines of what Pete was trying to sell the TV manufacturer on—you can make money from Black consumers as well as White ones, the money’s all green.

Real estate is cheaper in “those neighborhoods” so you start out cheaper than in White neighborhoods.  Plus you can hire Blacks to work for you for less money.  Then, you can undercut the competing minority businesses because you can buy your merchandise cheaper.  What, you think that minorities would get the same wholesale price deals from White suppliers?  Hahaha.  They take what they could get and better not complain about it.

The downside is, your business gets robbed and burned down during the riots.  But then you have license to call them a bunch of wild animals for the rest of your life.  Because you’d never destroy *their* businesses, not that they had any anyway, shiftless ungrateful blah blah blah.

If the community were actually desegregated, then Black businesses might sell to White residents and vice versa.  Instead it was just a one-way invasion of business territory. 

Then there was “blockbusting.”  Scare White people out of their homes by moving in a group of the most objectionable negative-stereotypical Black family you can under the guise of “desegregation,” buy their houses for cheap, then sell them at twice the price to Black families hoping to move into a nice area.  Leave the rest to collapse when the homes available outstrip the demand.  Some real estate development companies made a huge bundle on this, tearing apart longstanding urban communities and ripping off minorities all in one fear-fueled profitable swoop.

Comment #67: oldfeminist  on  11/06  at  05:43 AM

That scene where Roger hits on Betty and she gets blamed for it also brought up for me the way women, particularly then, are supposed to always be pleasant and agreeable towards others, especially men. After a lifetime of practice, you don’t get to just take that off when you don’t want to it’s a reflex. Yet Betty, and all the other women on the show, are constantly having inappropriate requests made of them.

It isn’t just that they’re more constrained in their options, it’s that they’re constantly badgered to choose between violating their temperament conditioning and violating norms they’ll certainly be punished for breaking out of.

Also, ditto the praise for this Mad Men blogging. It’s as hard to wait for the next dissection as it is to wait for a new episode in the first place.

Comment #68: Natasha Chart  on  11/06  at  06:06 AM

Check out the second season where her (white, male) ob-gyn gives her a patronizing, finger wagging lecture on how “such options are for young girls who don’t have any other options.  Not for a married woman of means like you”.

Blue Jean: If Betty were non-fictional, she’d be in her 70s now. If you know any women that age, you might ask them about the sort of guff they got from physicians back then.

Comment #69: Molly, NYC  on  11/06  at  09:25 AM

Felix Culpa   - Bear in mind that once parenthood became largely elective instead of accidental, people who became parents were the ones who are much more into it. So the narrative about parenthood being super-awesome is coming from people who actually do enjoy being parents.

Comment #70: Molly, NYC  on  11/06  at  09:43 AM

Leave and go where? I thought this was sort of covered the other week, when Betty talks to her dad’s lawyer and he points out that a divorce would impoverish her.

I think they had to put that in precisely so people realized what Betty is up against.  I noticed a considerable drop in agitation at Betty after she sought out her options and found she had none.

Comment #71: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/06  at  10:54 AM

63 and 69,

True. I suppose Betty should be grateful that her doctor was pleasant albeit patronizing, instead of calling her an evil, baby killing slut who should be reported to the police.

Comment #72: Blue Jean  on  11/06  at  10:54 AM

Wapsie at #42:  “and only the dumpy, dumb women from her neighborhood to talk to”

That’s unfair, and kind of an extension of blaming women for something out of their control.  Or, exempting the pretty one and holding the “dumpy” ones accountable for their subjugation.  Betty may be worldly and have a level of sophistication, but she doesn’t seem to be exceptionally smart and she has no inner resources.  If I was her neighbor I don’t think we would spend much time chatting, and it wouldn’t be my fault.

Your read of the women of suburbia seems to be that she is the only bright star trapped in the midst of ugliness, but the real tragedy is that those women are variously brilliant and dull in all kinds of ways and they are all being forced into the very same role.

Maybe I’m just being sensitive.  As a distinctly non-beautiful person I notice when others assume that being plain is the same as being dumb, and it rankles.  Betty is beautiful, but she is not the only woman of value stuck in that suburb.

Comment #73: Eileen  on  11/06  at  11:17 AM

After all, thus far we haven’t heard of a single female politician brought down by a sex scandal.

Well, she barely was re-elected, but Helen Chenoweth nearly went down after she was one of the hypocritical adulterers outed by Larry Flynt’s people in the wake of the Clinton impeachment.  Her lame excuse was adultery when you’re not in office doesn’t count.

Comment #74: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/06  at  11:37 AM

One note on the post: why is it illustrated with a picture of Don, since it’s primarily about Betty?

I felt like looking at Jon Hamm.  There wasn’t anything deep there.  I like to look at Jon Hamm, as does most of America.  He’s so hot he transcends sexual orientation, and straight dudes want to do him.

Comment #75: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/06  at  11:39 AM

Felix Culpa - Bear in mind that once parenthood became largely elective instead of accidental, people who became parents were the ones who are much more into it. So the narrative about parenthood being super-awesome is coming from people who actually do enjoy being parents.

Not necessarily.  Parenthood is still the default state and there is a buttload of social pressure to reproduce.  If you are childfree-by-choice you encounter all kinds of funny looks and rude comments.  There are still far too many people popping out kids because “everyone does it” or “Mom wants a grandchild” or whatever shallow poorly-considered reason.  And then there’s the fact that, even today, a large percentage of pregnancies are unplanned!  While the situation today is a substantial improvement over that of the Mad Men era I see a dangerous myth arising to take the place of the old ones - “Contraception and abortion are available now, therefore anyone who is a parent must really enjoy the job.”  Too many lousy miserable parents out there for me to believe that.  Of course most everyone is going to proclaim that parenthood is super-awesome.  It’s not really acceptable to admit that you don’t enjoy parenting in public.

Comment #76: DonnaDiva  on  11/06  at  12:01 PM

I suppose Betty should be grateful that her doctor was pleasant albeit patronizing, instead of calling her an evil, baby killing slut who should be reported to the police.

That’s historically accurate.  The narrative about “baby-killing” only really turned up after Roe, when opponents of legal abortion realized that simply wanting to control women’s sex lives wasn’t working as an argument anymore.  Prior to then, “baby-killing” was strictly a second line attack, and mostly a Catholic peculiarity, linked up to their idea that contraception was anti-life.

Comment #77: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/06  at  12:08 PM

Yes, most doctors didn’t feel abortion was “baby killing”, but some did.  Most certainly felt that it was a serious crime, and sexism being what it is, that women weren’t competent enough to decide for themselves about pregnancy.  Check out Peyton Place sometime, where the town doctor anguishes over the abortion he gave Selena Cross (and he consented to do it only because she was raped by her father) or the scene in East of Eden where the doctor scolds Cathy for wanting to abort her unwanted pregnancy.  Cathy, of course, is depicted as a “monster” who frames two boys for rape, murders her parents, kills her best friend, etc. so one can see Steinbeck’s none-too-subtle implication that only a complete psycho would want an abortion.

Comment #78: Blue Jean  on  11/06  at  12:39 PM

After all, thus far we haven’t heard of a single female politician brought down by a sex scandal

This is mostly because there are so few female politicians to begin with.

Comment #79: bananacat  on  11/06  at  01:01 PM

It’s not really acceptable to admit that you don’t enjoy parenting in public.

Or that it was a mistake in the first place.  I have a cousin who tells me that it was a wise move on my part not to have children, and I know she feels that she’d have been better off if her first daughter hadn’t been born.

Blue Jean, in books about crime from the 50s and 60s, the practitioners of abortion who aren’t doctors are usually described as sadistic in orientation, which goes along with the narrative you’re talking about.

Comment #80: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/06  at  01:34 PM

Eileen - Dumb & dumpy certainly from Betty’s own perspective, with which I’m in strong sympathy. You may be right that my comments weren’t entirely fair to those other women. But I’ll admit, I don’t have much patience for the notion of “housewife” in general, and some of that prejudice may have colored my remarks.

Comment #81: wapsie  on  11/06  at  01:34 PM

Most women of Betty’s era and station went to college and many graduated.  Unfortunately, college was seen as a place to meet an aspiring Mr. ... hence the term “MRS Degree”, not a place to become anything other than an educated mate and mother for upscale children.  The presumption that others in her neighborhood were “dumb and dumpy” isn’t fair in that regard ... they were more than likely finding proxies for their abilities or depressed.

Keep in mind that Nancy Pelosi shared that station in life after college.

Comment #82: Ms Kate  on  11/06  at  02:17 PM

I love January Jones this season. She’s got so much more screen time with her character and it turns out that her character is important dammit!
I loved her in last Sunday’s episode - her mental state with Don’s deception just meshed with the state of everyone after Kennedy was assasinated so perfectly.

Just goes to prove that conservatives are so cut off from actual human feelings and the lives of people who aren’t white males that they can’t possibly imagine why the world isn’t revolving around them.

I almost did a spit take with my tea when I read

But he was acknowledging the bitter truth that all the gains in freedom his community made in the Sixties also occasioned some fairly catastrophic losses.

Yeah , nice try Dreher.

Comment #83: Danica Lefse Queen  on  11/06  at  04:11 PM

It’s not really acceptable to admit that you don’t enjoy parenting in public.

Or that it was a mistake in the first place.  I have a cousin who tells me that it was a wise move on my part not to have children, and I know she feels that she’d have been better off if her first daughter hadn’t been born.

And just try asserting from the outset that you have no interest in ever having children. Particularly if you’re female. “Don’t be silly. Of course you want children.” or “You don’t like kids? What did kids ever do to you?” Maybe things are different for girls now, but I rather doubt it as I was told in the 1980s and 1990s that everything was changed in the 1960s and 1970s and the world was now my oyster, and at the same time the same people were still insisting to me that, despite whatever I had to say about it, what I really wanted was to have a fairy tale wedding and crank out some replicants.
Thanks to suffrage and feminism, now you can have whatever you want! And naturally you want what we tell you you’re supposed to want because you’re not some kind of deviant child-hating spinster freak are you?

Comment #84: snobographer  on  11/06  at  04:13 PM

DonnaDiva

If you are childfree-by-choice you encounter all kinds of funny looks and rude comments.  There are still far too many people popping out kids because “everyone does it” or “Mom wants a grandchild” or whatever shallow poorly-considered reason.  And then there’s the fact that, even today, a large percentage of pregnancies are unplanned!  While the situation today is a substantial improvement over that of the Mad Men era I see a dangerous myth arising to take the place of the old ones - “Contraception and abortion are available now, therefore anyone who is a parent must really enjoy the job.” Too many lousy miserable parents out there for me to believe that.  Of course most everyone is going to proclaim that parenthood is super-awesome.  It’s not really acceptable to admit that you don’t enjoy parenting in public.

Thank you.

Comment #85: Danica Lefse Queen  on  11/06  at  04:19 PM

Snobographer, some of the “of course you want kids” was a backlash against a certain type of 60s and 70s feminist, often from a wealthy family with an expensive education, who would look down her nose at any married woman or mother and sneer about how she couldn’t possibly be a feminist or a fully actualized human if she had a husband and kids.

Not that such creatures were common - but their opinions predominated in the media and they were seen to dominate NOW as well, since NOW seemingly neglected the bread and butter issues of the everywoman in favor of issues that were of higher importance to an affluent and educated woman.

Of course the “you can have it all” was also a backlash against women in the workplace.

Comment #86: Ms Kate  on  11/06  at  05:17 PM

I call bullshit.

I was a member of NOW, on the Media committee in the mid ‘70s, and encountered no such straw women. The women I met ranged from those single and working to those married and raising children, and every permutation in between.

If those “opinions dominated the media” it was because the (mostly male-dominated, at the time) media was constructing straw women based on their own prejudices.

Now wasn’t neglecting “bread and butter issues” either, since there were committees and women working on every issue imaginable, depending on which issues all those non-straw women cared to work on: including getting women work in blue collar fields, childcare, even working for the idealistic idea that housewives should be paid, or at least honored, for their work in the home, that working women should be able to be paid for maternity leave, you name it.

This argument reminds me of the time I was marching in a women’s parade down 5th avenue in New York, and some smirky man fell in stride to say to me, “I really admire you. My wife doesn’t work, she stays home with our two kids.”

I shot him down with a withering glance, “Two children are a LOT of work.”

Comment #87: judybrowni  on  11/06  at  06:05 PM

As for myself, the “of course you want to get married and have babies; all girls want to get married and have babies” meme was coming more from my working-class family members, including a single working mother who’d married the first (and second and third…) schlub that came along in the 1960s because “that’s what you’re supposed to do.” And though every attempt she made at marriage ended in failure and though motherhood was obviously a burdensome chore she couldn’t wait to be finished with, she and every one of my siblings continued to assert that marriage and baby-making was my predestined lifepath as a person born with ovaries. And at the same time, girls can do anything boys can do. Except math. There were a lot of conflicting and directly contradictory messages flying around. It was extremely frustrating.
And actually, I can’t even say all this came from my mom and sibs. People from the outside - friends and acquaintances and whatnot - would get wind of these statements and contradictions and nod in agreement and wonder why that vein was bulging out of my forehead.

Comment #88: snobographer  on  11/06  at  06:42 PM

Oh and practically every guy I ever dated and got into a conversation about this stuff.

Comment #89: snobographer  on  11/06  at  07:00 PM

70:

So the narrative about parenthood being super-awesome is coming from people who actually do enjoy being parents.

There are people who enjoy parenting, find it to be their life-calling, and they certainly jump on the “parenting is super awesome!” bandwagon.  And it’s legitimate for them to do so: for some people, that’s their reality.  I think it is a very very tiny segment of parents overall, and furthermore, I think social conservatives trot out this segment, Potempkin-Villagelike, when they try to guilt the public at large into not using birth control and/or having children they can ill afford and possibly do not really want.

The larger narrative foisted by cultural conservatives in the wake of easily available birth control and abortion has shifted from, “It’s your duty and its inevitable.  Live with it.” to “How can you be a real, happy person without squeezing out a few kids?”  And yes, those of us who are not really interested in having kids get strange looks, all kinds of family pressure, and about a thousand other subtle and not-so-subtle prods from the herd for daring to question the “instant happiness and acceptance” narrative as to having kids.

By the way, I happen to adore children.  If I had all the money I thought both me and some children needed, all the spare time, and had done all of the myriad things I really want to do and that having children makes difficult or impossible, I’d likely want to have kids.  Maybe that’ll happen some day; I rather doubt it.  In the meantime legions of my family members, friends, and other people have kids that I can visit, play with, etc.  I love kids: other people’s kids. wink

Comment #90: Felix Culpa  on  11/06  at  07:36 PM

By the by, as to “parenthood being super-awesome” people: I often wonder how many of them really genuinely feel that…and how many of them are trapped into it and are either unable or unwilling to admit that the situation they find themselves in is not The Brady Bunch.  Appearances can be so deceiving when families are involved.

Comment #91: Felix Culpa  on  11/06  at  07:47 PM

Can we please stop pretending sexism and cultural imperatives to conform to gender roles are exclusive to conservatives and right-wingers already?

Comment #92: snobographer  on  11/06  at  08:26 PM

I suppose that an equivalent character to Betty Draper for our side would be, say, a successful African American professional who secretly harbors deep doubts and insecurities, a sense that he doesn’t really deserve his place because he only got it through affirmative action.

The difference is, Betty Drapers really existed, whereas my hypothetical character does not represent anything in the real world, or if one such could be found, he would be an interesting case study and not representative of a major social phenomenon.

And that is how cons see Betty Draper: not as an iconic figure representing thousands of women like her, and millions more not so much like her, but just as this one weirdo with these bizarre and incomprehensible characteristics, and why are the producers wasting time on such an unpleasant oddity…?

Comment #93: Dr. Psycho  on  11/06  at  08:30 PM

I don’t watch Mad Men, but there is one thing I want to know: what is it about Rod Dreher that he claims makes him “crunchy”? I’m pretty certain you have to at least be left-libertarian to qualify for that…

Comment #94: BrianX  on  11/06  at  08:54 PM

BrianX, it comes from Dreher’s own self-description:

Rod Dreher, a columnist for the Dallas Morning News and author of “Crunchy Cons,” offers a ” crunchy ” conservative take on politics,

Link

Comment #95: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/06  at  09:27 PM

Chow Mein:

I don’t think that really explains it. “Crunchy” and “conservative” strike me as being contradictory, unless there’s some meaning of “crunchy” that doesn’t refer to being a hippie.

Comment #96: BrianX  on  11/06  at  10:33 PM

BrianX,  this is from a favorable review of the book he wrote with that title:

Crunchy Converts

I have just finished reading Rod Dreher’s Crunchy Cons, and I quite liked it. What is a “crunchy con,” you ask? Let me attempt an explanation by quoting the rather unwieldy subtitle of Dreher’s book: “How Birkenstocked Burkeans, gun-loving organic gardeners, evangelical free-range farmers, hip homeschooling mamas, right-wing nature lovers, and their diverse tribe of countercultural conservatives plan to save America (or at least the Republican Party).” Despite the subtitle’s rather cutesy invocation of some Bobo class markers, a crunchy con, according to Dreher, is not simply a Republican who wears Birkenstocks. Crunchy connery, as Dreher conceives of it, is neither a political ideology nor a lifestyle choice, but a kind of cultural sensibility, in the tradition of Russell Kirk, which informs politics and lifestyle choices. To be a crunchy con is to reject the economic libertarianism of the mainstream Republican party and the sexual/lifestyle libertarianism of the mainstream Democratic party. Crunchy connery is countercultural because it renounces the “consumer choice uber alles” philosophy that seems to typify much of mainstream culture. The book is not an anti-capitalist rant; it recognizes the free market as the system most conducive to general human flourishing, but it suggests that when the free market becomes the model, not only for our economic system, but also for the ordering of our personal lives and choices, we’re in trouble.

Link

Comment #97: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/06  at  10:51 PM

snobographer said:

Can we please stop pretending sexism and cultural imperatives to conform to gender roles are exclusive to conservatives and right-wingers already?

I don’t think anyone was pretending that, almost every demographic and persuasion is vulnerable to it.  I think a certain brand of cultural conservatism is most responsible for perpetuating it, however.

Comment #98: Felix Culpa  on  11/07  at  12:15 AM

judibrowni, if that was the case, it wasn’t filtering out to the chapters in smaller, rural states.  People in NY may have had that reality, but it wasn’t what made it across the country to much less urbanized areas.  I remember my then-boyfriend’s mother - the president of the state chapter - fuming about that.

In any case, one key piece of evidence that “parenting is the awsomeist for everybody” game is up is the renewed focus on fear of a brown country.  The whole idea that one must breed if only to breed more white people is evidence that the happy parent club myth has run its course.

Comment #99: Ms Kate  on  11/07  at  12:25 AM

Oh, and how many times have we lefties heard the refrain about how we all must breed educated liberal children because we’ll be outnumbered by right wingers if we don’t?  Ugh.

Comment #100: Ms Kate  on  11/07  at  12:26 AM

I was a member of NOW, on the Media committee in the mid ‘70s, and encountered no such straw women. The women I met ranged from those single and working to those married and raising children, and every permutation in between.

Thanks judibrowni. 

You didn’t even have to be there.  Anyone who reads US feminist literature from the Seventies will notice a lot of it is about women who work in the home, pink collar women, nonwhite women, women in countries other than the US, poor women, children’s issues, inequities in education and hiring, women (and girls) horrifically mistreated by misogynist religions, and so on.

I’m tired of hearing that second wavers only cared about getting into the boardroom in their stupid suits with floofy bowties.  I know not everyone here thinks that way, but it’s annoying when it happens.

Comment #101: oldfeminist  on  11/07  at  12:52 AM

@ 84:
And just try asserting from the outset that you have no interest in ever having children. Particularly if you’re female. “Don’t be silly. Of course you want children.” or “You don’t like kids? What did kids ever do to you?” Maybe things are different for girls now, but I rather doubt it…

When I was working on my bachelors, I had a guy I was dating respond to my carefully thought out speech of “You know, I’m not sure I’ll ever get married.  If I end up deciding I want to do that, and I’m in a situation to do it, then great, but it’s not a life-goal, like having a really awesome condo and learning to cook interesting world cuisines is.”  He wandered around the topic for a while, so let me give you the synopsis: “It’s okay that you don’t want to get married right now, I’ll just hang around until you do, and then I’ll ask you and we’ll get married and have at least three kids.”  He was…  let’s be generous, and say twenty-two years old.

Yeah, they’re still doing it.

Comment #102: fluffster  on  11/07  at  01:03 AM

chow mein:

Ah, so it’s all a great big pile of horseshit dressed up in designer tie dye.

Comment #103: BrianX  on  11/07  at  03:04 AM

More seriously, I don’t see anything the slightest bit crunchy about that passage. It strikes me as being some kind of hyper-authoritarian, pastoralist, Mao-influenced luddite conservatism—joyless and ascetic for no particular purpose except it lets Dreher’s demons of lust and consumption take a rest for a while.

Comment #104: BrianX  on  11/07  at  03:13 AM

Yes, he’s an idiot.

FWIW, he’s written disapprovingly about the notion that people should have “private” sex lives.

Amanda has been documenting his intellectual atrocities for a while now:

After admitting that the girls being married can’t actually consent, Rod Dreher really has to ask whether civil law should “tolerate” what is technically and legally child rape? Yes, he is. Rod Dreher really wonders whether the marriage and rape of children really should be legally accepted when it occurs under the aegis of a patriarchal religious organization. Somehow, I doubt that these questions would occur to him if the rape of little girls was going on in a secular context — it’s only patriarchal religion which motivates him to “just giving child rape a chance.”

As Amanda Marcotte points out:

            By Rod’s argument, we should also be lenient on slavery (though it’s worth noting that the FDLS definition of wifehood is close to indistinguishable from slavery), infanticide, rule by kings, torture chambers for heretics, witch-burning—ah ****, what am I saying? All these injustices tend to fall on the shoulders of those who are not in his privileged shoes, so he’s probably see all of them as tolerable as long as you hid behind the “people of faith” label.

Is it just coincidence that Rod Dreher happens to be a member of the class upon which none of the injustices tolerated under the “people of faith” label will fall? Is it just a coincidence that he would never have to worry about losing equal rights or dignity that would be protected in secular contexts, but which might be undermined if a powerful religious majority deeded those rights or dignity contrary to their doctrine?

As if that weren’t bad enough, Dreher has the temerity to suggest that tolerance of child rape might be required by tolerance of gay marriage:

  I happen to think it’s terrible to force a 14 year old to “marry” a 50 year old man who has five other “wives.” I would put a stop to it. But shouldn’t we at least ask ourselves on what ground we stand to criminalize the practice, when many of us are perfectly willing to extend marriage rights to same-sex couples. If there is no fixed definition of marriage, and if marriage is merely a contract establishing a legal relationship between consenting people, why is it wrong for the members of this community to establish their own rules governing marriage?

Link

BTW, I prefer Dark Avenger or DA when I’m being addressed, I used to work at a Chinese restaurant,  but I wasn’t on the menu   wink

Comment #105: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/07  at  09:05 AM

hyper-authoritarian, pastoralist, Mao-influenced luddite conservatism—joyless and ascetic for no particular purpose except it lets Dreher’s demons of lust and consumption take a rest for a while

Kudos, BrianX; that’s the pithiest description of it that I’ve ever heard.

Roy Edroso has posted a lot about Dreher, as well.

Comment #106: annejumps  on  11/07  at  10:11 AM

hated Seinfeld because he thought Elaine was too shallow (he never seemed to notice George’s ironic shallowness).

Jesus, this is like hating Marge for being too yellow.

Comment #107: Dan  on  11/07  at  03:11 PM

Parenthood is still the default state and there is a buttload of social pressure to reproduce.  If you are childfree-by-choice you encounter all kinds of funny looks and rude comments.  There are still far too many people popping out kids because “everyone does it” or “Mom wants a grandchild” or whatever shallow poorly-considered reason.

DonnaDiva:  You’re absolutely right that people often have kids for ridiculous reasons, and probably always will.

However, I must live in rareified circles, since,  although I often hear tell of some people somewhere who are “popping out kids,” as you put it,  because they were pressured to make grandchildren or whatever, I honestly don’t know anyone with access to modern birth control (including abortion services) who didn’t make up her own mind about it. (In fact, I know a lot more women who wanted more kids than they had, but were subject to some pressure—usually of the economic sort—to lay off, so to speak.) 

That’s what pro-choice means: you’re entitled to have the wherewithal to make a choice. It doesn’t mean you’re entitled to never hear a differing opinion, even if it’s about you personally. 

Being in a system where, as a woman, you could find yourself knocked up and having to choose between continuing the pregnancy or hunting desperately for the $1,000 or so in cash that it takes for some defrocked RN you have to drive yourself a few hundred miles to see, to do a scrape with no anesthesia and with instruments that may or may not have been sterilized, then left entirely alone while you cramp out whatever’s left in your uterus (or of your uterus), all the while horrifically aware that you could die from this—that’s “being pressured to have a baby.” (1)

Hearing your folks state a wish for grandchildren you don’t choose to have doesn’t make the cut.

_________
(1) I was 19 when Roe was decided. This particular scenario didn’t happen to me, but I did lose a few friends in high school this way.

Comment #108: Molly, NYC  on  11/07  at  03:19 PM

However, I must live in rareified circles, since, although I often hear tell of some people somewhere who are “popping out kids,” as you put it, because they were pressured to make grandchildren or whatever, I honestly don’t know anyone with access to modern birth control (including abortion services) who didn’t make up her own mind about it. (In fact, I know a lot more women who wanted more kids than they had, but were subject to some pressure—usually of the economic sort—to lay off, so to speak.)

Yay for you and your circle.  Where women make decisions with full autonomy and in a cultural vacuum.  I guess Pandagon can go ahead and close up shop because your observation of the experience of the women you know clearly indicates that feminism has achieved all of its goals. 

That’s what pro-choice means: you’re entitled to have the wherewithal to make a choice. It doesn’t mean you’re entitled to never hear a differing opinion, even if it’s about you personally.

Yet the way it seems to work is that people with children are free to opine about my choice - “Why don’t you want kids?  Don’t you like kids?”  “You’ll change your mind”  “Don’t you want to give your parents grandchildren?”  “You’re not really a grown up until you have kids.”  But I don’t dare question why they decided to have children nor would I get away with suggesting they may regret having them some day.  While we’re on the topic, I’m not a proponent of the “all reproductive choices women make are equal and ethically neutral” school of thought.  Using contraception or getting an abortion are choices that affect a woman and her body and no one else’s business.  When you bring that pregnancy to term you ARE affecting others, not the least of whom is the child you are bringing into the world.  That’s not a positive or negative statement, just a fact. 

Being in a system where, as a woman, you could find yourself knocked up and having to choose between continuing the pregnancy or hunting desperately for the $1,000 or so in cash that it takes for some defrocked RN you have to drive yourself a few hundred miles to see, to do a scrape with no anesthesia and with instruments that may or may not have been sterilized, then left entirely alone while you cramp out whatever’s left in your uterus (or of your uterus), all the while horrifically aware that you could die from this—that’s “being pressured to have a baby.” (1)

Hearing your folks state a wish for grandchildren you don’t choose to have doesn’t make the cut.

Wow.  Was there a sale on straw at Pier One today?  I’m aware that the situation today is an improvement over the Mad Men era.  Why, I actually said as much in the post you quoted from!  But you cannot deny that women are still under considerable social and often economic pressure to procreate.  Pressure doesn’t have to take a coercive form to be effective, but I’m sure you knew that.  And with contraception and increasing awareness that non-parenthood IS an option, the powers-that-be must be concerned about losing their steady stream of wage slaves and consumers.  Thus, a modern Cult of Parenthood has arisen to glorify and romanticize what used to be a simple biological function - reproduction.  People, women especially, are being fed unrealistic fairy tale New Age-y horsepucky about what a spiritual and exalting experience parenthood is.  Unsurprisingly, a lot of them realize quickly that it’s expensive drudgery and the bitterness and disappointment sets in.  Which sometimes gets taken out on the kids.

Comment #109: DonnaDiva  on  11/07  at  04:30 PM

DonnaDiva: Just so I’m clear on this:  You don’t want kids, you don’t think having kids is all that great—and you don’t have kids.

So the problem is what, exactly?

I’m missing something. Are people forceably knocking you up? Holding you down and coming at you with turkey basters or something?

You know that bumper sticker that says “If you don’t like abortion, don’t have one”?

Same thing with kids.

I guess Pandagon can go ahead and close up shop because your observation of the experience of the women you know clearly indicates that feminism has achieved all of its goals.

Clearly not, but at least I don’t think—as you apparently do—that feminism will never, ever achieve any of its goals if women, once given the tools to make their own damn decisions like adults, are actually expected to make them like adults.  Not everyone will, but your expectation that women are generally so childish and spineless that they can’t be expected to resist “Gosh, all the other girls are doing it!” as a reason to do—well, anything, but especially something as critical as have a baby—is hardly a feminist stance.

Yet the way it seems to work is that people with children are free to opine about my choice - “Why don’t you want kids?  Don’t you like kids?” “You’ll change your mind” “Don’t you want to give your parents grandchildren?” “You’re not really a grown up until you have kids.” But I don’t dare question why they decided to have children nor would I get away with suggesting they may regret having them some day.

In other words, you can’t support your own position, don’t apparently have the guts to tell the Nosy Parkers to buzz off—and you’re complaining about it.


But you cannot deny that women are still under considerable social and often economic pressure to procreate.

Everyone’s under a lot of pressure to do a lot of things. I’m under pressure to, among other things, vote Republican, vote Democratic, vote Green, marry my fella, dump my fella, continue as we are with my fella, buy new stuff, make due with what I’ve got, move, stay put, do any of a dozen things about my appearance, keep my appearance as it is, etc.  But it’s ridiculous to pretend that at the end of the day, someone else is making those decisions when I’m the one who eventually gets up and puts the decisions in motion.

By the way—have a look at any modern Catholic family, the kind who go to Mass every week and generally take it seriously.  They’re under pressure to pop ‘em out—but the granddaughters of women whose families took up whole pews have only a couple of kids themselves nowadays. There’s a reason for that—despite the pressure.

And regarding economic pressure—are you serious? The economic pressure goes the other way. Kids, as you correctly point out,  are expensive.

. . .  what used to be a simple biological function - reproduction.

Huh? In amoebas, maybe.  When, in our species, was parenthood simple?

Unsurprisingly, a lot of them realize quickly that it’s expensive drudgery and the bitterness and disappointment sets in. 

A lot of them?  Your cousin and who else?

You’re right about the expensive drudgery, but the bitterness and disappointment, not so much. Do you really think everyone’s lying to you about loving their kids? That it’s all some big PC conspiracy?

Nah, humans couldn’t possibly have developed neurochemically to care about our kids or to take any pleasure in them. What would be the evolutionary advantage in that? Obviously, any woman who claims that she loves her sticky, pooping, helpless, financial black hole is either putting you on, or completely deluded.

Which sometimes gets taken out on the kids.

Won’t someone please think of the children?!!

Thank you, Mrs. Lovejoy.

Comment #110: Molly, NYC  on  11/07  at  07:14 PM

Wow…  I guess she told you DonnaDiva, regardless of whether any of it is directly related to what you said.

Comment #111: Eileen  on  11/07  at  07:26 PM

Molly, methinks you’re protesting a tad too much.

Comment #112: DonnaDiva  on  11/07  at  08:55 PM

Molly, methinks you’re protesting a tad too much.

My, that is a convincing argument!

Comment #113: Molly, NYC  on  11/08  at  04:36 PM

People should stop being jerks to each other about kids. 

That is all.

Comment #114: Punditus Maximus  on  11/08  at  04:59 PM
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