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Next entry: Reduction Ad Concussio Previous entry: Devastation Has Been Visited Upon Us

Why not a Springsteen populism?

So I’m scrolling through a backlog of Coverville podcasts and I see that he did a Bruce Springsteen show, and I shot right to it.  Because I have a soft spot for the Boss, and I’m fascinated by indie musicians who share it and are going to try like hell to get his reputation revived in the same way that old country-western has been revived.  The most effective shot of this was definitely Bonnie Prince Billy and Tortoise covering “Thunder Road”.  But I’m skeptical that it’s ever going to take.  Springsteen mines the same territory as country-western musicians—-valorizing the lives of the most ordinary people—-but it’s way more uncomfortable because there’s not a thick layer of nostalgia to give the listener distance.  The characters in Springsteen songs are people you know, and if you’re an insufferable music snob, odds are they’re the very people that you’ve spent most of your life trying not to be.  It’s painful to listen to a lot of the time, because it’s just depressing to hear the small dreams and little frustrations that are just too close to home.  But honestly, that’s what appeals to me about Springsteen.  He’s successful as a social realist, and as bonus, his music really means a lot to the very people he writes about.  You can imagine the characters in songs like “Atlantic City” or “The River” dipping into their savings to go to a Springsteen show, and making a night of it, taking a little break from the lives of quiet desperation.*

The resurgence of ugly right wing populism reminds me of one of the more amusing ironies that makes liberals feel superior, which is the disconnect between Springsteen (humongous liberal) and the right wing leaning of so many working and middle class white people who relate to his music.  It’s a microcosm of this major frustration—-they can get so close, identifying the forces that make their lives harder, and yet can’t make that final leap into realizing what has to be done to make it better, instead pouring out their bitterness into a vote for Republicans.  (Obviously, not all, but a significant percentage.)  I will say that this lens of seeing things makes the famous story of Springsteen and Reagan much more complicated than it appears to be.


I’m sure you know it, but a recap: During the 1984 campaign, Reagan’s campaign used Springsteen’s “Born in the U.S.A.” as a theme song, until Springsteen put an end to it.  This is Very Funny to we liberals, because it’s so obvious that the lyrics to the song are basically lambasting the conservative forces that were laying waste to the hopes and dreams of working class Americans.  The assumption, which I shared, was the campaigners didn’t pick up on how the song was lambasting America for refusing to take care of its citizens, even its veterans. 

But rereading the lyrics, I can’t help but think that it’s not that obvious that the song has liberal politics.  It’s aimed directly at the bitter sense of betrayal that Vietnam veterans felt, and because Springsteen is Springsteen, he’s more interested in describing said bitterness than offering pedantic solutions, or even tipping his hand with wry humor that might indicate an left-leaning mentality.  Liberals and conservatives didn’t disagree that there was a problem in this sense, they just disagreed on the solution—-liberals wanted class justice, but conservatives convinced themselves that the problem was that we weren’t “allowed” to win Vietnam by the yammering liberals with their concerns for human rights, and if we’d won Vietnam, then the country wouldn’t be emasculated and listless.  If you squint your eyes and look at it sideways, you could easily interpret lyrics like these:

Come back home to the refinery
Hiring man says “Son if it was up to me”
I go down to see the V.A. man
He said “Son don’t you understand”

In a right wing populist sense.  The main character is adrift and emasculated (because we didn’t win) and can’t get a job (you can convince yourself that it’s an affirmative action loss, instead of an economic downturn issue).  Springsteen surely intended “born in the U.S.A” to enrage you because the wealthiest country on the planet won’t take care of its citizens, but through the entitled eyes of someone who thinks that easy street is their birthright as white Christians with right wing leanings, it could be read entirely differently.  So maybe the Republicans weren’t stupid, but trying to harness certain people’s bitterness for a right wing populist agenda.

Which is why my eyebrows shot up when Sarah Palin pulled out her “white flag of surrender!” line during the V.P. debates.  Clearly, the right wing is moving towards that same narrative—-we lost the war, and our country lost its way not because our leadership made bad decisions, not because Republicans are waging class warfare on working people, but because a bunch of pussy liberals waved the white flag of surrender.  It’s an appealing narrative to those few, because it simplifies things.  It gives you an excuse to avoid some ugly truths (such as “some wars are unwinnable”) because you can convince yourself that success is just a matter of will.  And it’s no surprise that the people who buy into this largely overlap with religious fundamentalists, who have the same belief that the complexity of life can be boiled down to having enough willpower to avoid temptation (mainly sexual) and therefore getting the reward of paradise.  It feels true, because it’s simple.

 

*The music is the main problem.  Springsteen musicians are artless and blunt.  But I’d say that’s not really true of the lyrics, which veer closer to terrifyingly concise.  I can’t get past this part of “The River” without choking up:

Now all them things that seemed so important
Well mister they vanished right into the air
Now I just act like I don’t remember
Mary acts like she don’t care

I can’t think of much else that describes any better the process by which Marriage grinds Love down and destroys it. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 03:03 PM • (58) Comments

Thoughtful post as usual, Amanda. But re: your reading of the lyrics from “The River”—talk about acts of creative (or at least selective) interpretation! Surely that song is as much about the faltering economy, lousy birth control education, and the crushed dreams of working-class life in general, as it is about marriage per se? Springsteen is hardly Laura Kipnis here.

Comment #1: Kevin  on  10/12  at  03:32 PM

Now all them things that seemed so important
Well mister they vanished right into the air
Now I just act like I don’t remember
Mary acts like she don’t care

Im right there with you on Springsteen. I grew up with the guys he writes about - many of them a bit older than I am, who were ground down by the economy of the 1970s. To me, the liberal politics behind his words were always clear, but I think you’re right that conservatives just apply a different world view and come up with a different analysis.

And I cry every time I hear The River. I knew far too many people who lived that.

Comment #2: Broce  on  10/12  at  03:40 PM

None of those things exclude my interpretation.  That’s so specific.  Surely people who drifted into marriage without a pregnancy to compel it can relate to the way that the obligatory nature of marriage (and other parts of life) grinds you down.  The specifics of the song are interesting, but like a good piece of art, it’s about more than the direct topic.  For a lot of people, beauty, joy, and love are fleeting moments and bitter memories.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/12  at  03:42 PM

I mean, it’s obvious some people somehow manage to make love work inside marriage.  But let’s not romanticize it.  Between the high divorce rate and the number of couples who don’t seem to like each other at all, the tragedy of how people went from adoring each other to resentment and loathing is probably the most common one out there.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/12  at  03:45 PM

Surely that song is as much about the faltering economy, lousy birth control education, and the crushed dreams of working-class life in general, as it is about marriage per se?

I think it is…and about the expectation of people in that time. My sister got pregnant in 1968, and she got married because that’s what most middle and working class people did then about a teen pregnancy. A recent conversation with my mother about this revealed that she would have had absolutely no clue how to find abortion services safely for my sister back then. Within 13 months, my sister and her husband had two kids, she was hit with a serious post partum depression everyone ignored, and he struggled to put food on the table. It took them probably 15 years to work through the crap and establish a good marriage. And it took nearly 20 for them to own a decent home - they were lucky in that my brother in law worked for the government and never lost his job. But my sister is a brilliant woman whose potential in other areas was completely subsumed in the daily round of diapers and such. She never finished high school.

Forty years down the road, they are among the very lucky to have held their marriage together, to have raised three great sons, and now have four grandkids, a nice house, and a really good relationship. Most people who found themselves in their shoes in 1968 were not nearly as lucky. And still…I cant help looking at my sister and thinking what she could have done if only….

Comment #5: Broce  on  10/12  at  03:47 PM

My sister got preganant & married in 1980 in the classic “River” type marriage. He was a college droput because he lost his scholarship and she dropped out during her first semester freshman year. They had 4 kids together. He passed away whil she was pregnant with the fourth. He always resented her and their marriage was awful. When he died, she had nothing to fall back on and cleaned houses until she got through some night classes and became a medical transcriptionist. I was always sad for her because she really is talented. Plays piano at her church and is a fantastic interior designer (her house is beautiful), in fact, that was her major befor she dropped out of school. I feel lucky that my wife & I have avoided these pitfalls (married later in life, no children to come between us - I don’t mean children are bad, but they can cause problems in a relationship).

Comment #6: Mark  on  10/12  at  04:02 PM

but conservatives convinced themselves that the problem was that we weren’t “allowed” to win Vietnam by the yammering liberals with their concerns for human rights, and if we’d won Vietnam, then the country wouldn’t be emasculated and listless.

While some blame was laid upon the Vietnam War protesters, most of the Vietnam vets…especially those who were Navy and Air Force pilots I’ve met in my childhood placed most of the blame on LBJ, McNamara, and to some extent Nixon for excessive micromanagement and for not allowing them to attack North Vietnamese airbases, aircraft on the ground, or other targets that would have been considered legitimate military targets in most other conflicts. 

The Vietnam vets in my old neighborhood were about evenly split on whether the war was right and wrong.  Some recalled being heckled by hippies and other left-wing activists upon arriving home….others ended up joining the protesters upon arriving home.  All of them were working class Latino youths who felt they had little choice but to comply with their draft notices or take ROTC to defray college expenses and/or fulfill college requirements…..and felt these factors were missed by the mostly middle-upper class White protesters who didn’t realize their socio-economic privilege which allowed them more leeway to protest. 

Though a lot of this has similarities to the “Stab in the back” accusations most German right-wing groups and a large portion of the German population during the Weimar Republic and WWII believed about how Jews and various liberal and communist groups had undermined Germany’s war efforts in WWI, the big difference was that impending military defeat, exhaustion of supplies due to the Allied blockades, and the urgings of the top generals like Hindenberg and Ludendorff were the main factors for the November Armistice….not popular street protests due to the tight military dictatorship that was still in effect.  Of course, the rapid social disintegration of German society into social chaos right after November 11, 1918 added a further gloss of plausibility to the “stab in the back” right-wing believers in Germany during the inter-war years and WWII. 

On the other hand, the very fact that popular protests by liberal activists and the larger American populace weary of the war was one of the most critical factors which caused the US withdrawal from the Vietnam War can and has been seen by many conservative and/or pro-Vietnam War veterans as “proof” that liberals and hippies “caused the defeat in Vietnam” and thus “proof” of their betrayal.  What are your thoughts on this?

Comment #7: exholt  on  10/12  at  04:14 PM

Very interesting post.  One of the main reasons I’ve always loved Springsteen is precisely this tension.  I think the reason people tend to underestimate him is that they see him only as a cheerleader for “the average guy” when in fact he consistently puts his tales of redemption in a broader context.  You can’t listen to “Reason to Believe” for example without thinking that there’s something almost psychotic about the people involved.  You honor their tenacity, their capacity to find meaning in the darkest of places, but at the same time you can’t shake the feeling that this ability is what confines them as well.

In short, you’re always supposed to take his songs seriously (he is no lover of irony by any stretch), but you can’t accept them uncritically.  “Thunder Road” is a song about redemption, but it’s also a song about how pathetic it is to be seeking redemption in this fashion.  And for every “Born to Run” there is a “Racing in the Streets” which cautions us against believing the myth.

This is also why he’s still relevant today.  The Rising was one of the best (probably the best, depending on how you feel about Sleater-Kinney) response to 9-11 because it was so honest. The pain was completely real, but it didn’t overwhelm the situation.  He didn’t feel the need to make a point - he told the stories of people.  And that’s why the “we will rise above this” sentiment worked.  It was hokey, but it was entirely honest.  It wasn’t Springsteen the hero leading us to salvation - it was our capacity to think about how everyday people were feeling the same things as us…all around the country.

If you haven’t seen his performance of “My City of Ruins” from immediately after 9-11, I’d highly recommend it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3etpNMu4UEk

It’s incredibly powerful in part because you can see just how much he’s hurting.

Comment #8: Charles  on  10/12  at  04:21 PM

Exholt, I think they’re not wrong that the protests helped get us out.  But the premise of their complaint is wrong.  They assume there was a way to “win” Vietnam, and there wasn’t.  So it’s irrelevant if protests were effective or not.  And it’s the same with Iraq.  Throwing good money after bad is a cliche for a reason.  It’s not wise.

Comment #9: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/12  at  04:24 PM

Charles, you’re right about the video, but I have to add that it’s disappointing to see that Springsteen looks like he’s had a face lift.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/12  at  04:29 PM

For the record, Amanda, I think Springsteens “One Step Up” is even better in pointing out what you described as “the process by which Marriage grinds Love down and destroys it. “


It’s the same thing night on night
Who’s wrong baby who’s right
Another fight and I slam the door on
Another battle in our dirty little war
When I look at myself I don’t see
The man I wanted to be
Somewhere along the line I slipped off track
I’m caught movin’ one step up and two steps back

Comment #11: Broce  on  10/12  at  04:58 PM

Just for the record, Springsteen is beloved by much of the indie set.  Nebraska makes the top 5 list of most of the people I know.

Comment #12: Me  on  10/12  at  05:20 PM

This is also why he’s still relevant today.  The Rising was one of the best (probably the best, depending on how you feel about Sleater-Kinney) response to 9-11 because it was so honest. The pain was completely real, but it didn’t overwhelm the situation.  He didn’t feel the need to make a point - he told the stories of people.

Very true, and same with “Magic”.  It must be hard to write songs protesting the current state of the country without sounding preachy or overdone, because Springsteen seems to be the only one who can do it.  And again, it’s by focusing on people’s stories.  Seriously, “Long Walk Home” should be the official song of the Obama presidency.

Comment #13: Storm at Sea  on  10/12  at  05:40 PM

Huh, I though the indie reclamation of Springsteen was pretty much complete.  There are literally hundred’s of indie Springsteen covers out there, and he’s cited as a major influence for dozens of indie acts. 
Great post anyway.

Comment #14: Nico  on  10/12  at  05:50 PM

Clearly, the right wing is moving towards that same narrative—-we lost the war, and our country lost its way not because our leadership made bad decisions, not because Republicans are waging class warfare on working people, but because a bunch of pussy liberals waved the white flag of surrender.

At least with the Iraq quagmire they can’t take the narative as far because, due to the lack of a draft, the tables are easily turned with a simple, “Well, when did you enlist?”

The Vietnam myth that DFH lost it can only be countered by those who were drafted and felt it was wrong to fight, wrong plan and wrong stragety.

Most vets I’ve met came back not carrying water for the “My country, right or wrong” but “My brothers were there”

Comment #15: cynickal  on  10/12  at  05:53 PM

At least with the Iraq quagmire they can’t take the narative as far because, due to the lack of a draft, the tables are easily turned with a simple, “Well, when did you enlist?”

Agreed to a point….though not as starkly as wars preceding the Vietnam War as there were greater inequities in the draft process as middle and upper-class mostly White socio-economically privileged adolescents and young adults had a far easier time avoiding the draft through college/grad school draft deferments when they existed and if need be, enlistments in their local national guard units than their working class and/or non-White counterparts. 

As such, the “When did you enlist” and “Where” questions has been an issue with Chickenhawks then as well as now.  Just look at Cheney, Quayle, W, etc.

Comment #16: exholt  on  10/12  at  06:17 PM

“Seriously, “Long Walk Home” should be the official song of the Obama presidency. “

I’ve been saying exactly the same thing for the entire last year. 

It’s a perfect summation of a message that I think progressive folks should always be talking about: the thing that makes America great has very little to do with our power or our guns or our ability to sell widgets. It’s really just about “who we are, what we’ll do, and what we won’t.” And we’ve lost our way, which just means it’s time to start acting how we know we should.

Comment #17: Charles  on  10/12  at  06:20 PM

“I can’t think of much else that describes any better the process by which Marriage grinds Love down and destroys it.”

Makes you wonder why some gay people want it so much.  By the way are you married?

I won’t comment on the insufferable smugness of the rest.  Here.

Comment #18: Siobhan  on  10/12  at  06:31 PM

Maybe so, Nico.  I’ve definitely noticed that, but haven’t seen it translated to people actually listening to or playing Springsteen on their own.  I did note in the first paragraph that indie musicians are on it, but I’m skeptical that it will make sense to audiences.

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/12  at  06:49 PM

Grow up, Siobhan.  And no, I’m not married.  I’m a conscientious objector.  In no small part because of tactics like yours.  If marriage is so great, then how come there’s so much pressure on women to get ensconced in one to “prove” that they’re acceptable members of the human race, having been inducted by being chosen by men, who have all the power to decide who gets in and doesn’t?  If marriage is so great, it should sell itself.  Instead, it’s like the triple threat pressure Olympics.  The carrot is an expensive wedding where everyone fusses over you, and the stick is the threat of being a spinster.  I’m skeptical of any institution that bullies and bribes women to participate.

Comment #20: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/12  at  06:51 PM

Please don’t write “so funny to we liberals” when you’re writing (even with light self-irony) about feeling superior to non-liberals.

Yes, I know, you are also poking fun at the self-confidence of liberal “superiority,” but including a glaring grammatical error to make that point might be a little too smart for the room. Any room.

Oh, and on the main topic: BRUUUUUUCE!

Comment #21: Doctor Cleveland  on  10/12  at  06:59 PM

Makes you wonder why some gay people want it so much.  By the way are you married?

Shorter Siobhan: I haven’t read this blog enough to know what’s going on, and I’ve given no real thought to the issues, yet I’m convinced I have something other than worthless noise to contribute.

Speaking directly to the lurkers: there are extreme pressures and expectations in our culture for heterosexual couples to marry.  Once married, a whole new set of pressures and expectations come into play - pressures that fall disproportionately on the woman.  Whole posts have been written about dealing with the inequalities of marriage.  Lots of them.  As various posters have pointed out, the accidental, obligatory nature of the marriage in “The River” would just make the situation that much worse.

However, despite all of these problems, marriage comes with advantages - rights and protections that unmarried couples don’t have.  Again, many posts have been written about them. 

Siobhan is either ignoring all of this background for the sake of a pathetically weak one-liner, or s/he is simply very stupid.  Actually, there’s no need to choose between the two possibilities - this is a both/and blog.

Comment #22: Seraph  on  10/12  at  07:13 PM

Noooo! Not you too. Springsteen was always the enemy. I cannot understand why people take him at all seriously. He’s like a Rawk Bobby Brown, ugh. The indie rockers trying to flog his work all uniformly bite (not really, but I blame Springsteen fandom on why a large number of current indie bands are so bland). I’ve had some disagreements with some of your music tastes (any Sonic Youth post- “Confusion is Sex”), but, you know, they still were in the confines of actual taste. Sad. Oh well, I had to angrily disagree at some point. (Actually you did make me think about Springsteen, but my gut recoiled.)

Comment #23: dooflow  on  10/12  at  07:15 PM

The Boss is immensely popular in the indie crowds - at least all the ones that I interact with.  Not just as an influence, but genuine love for his work.  Nebraska as mentioned above, but even the much more popular stuff.

His reputation with that crowd has been partially recuperated thanks to the efforts of The Arcade Fire and The Hold Steady and all those folks.  But as far as I can tell, there’s a lot of support that has nothing at all to do with that.  Perhaps the current way of nu-Springsteen is giving people the signal that they don’t need to feel ashamed for loving “Dancing in the Dark.”

If all you can do is big stadium rock, sure you can decry it as a bunch of schlock, but when that’s merely one element in a wide range of styles and approaches, it turns out that even the coolest of indie kids still has a lot of desire for music that really moves you.

Comment #24: Charles  on  10/12  at  07:34 PM

Springsteen was always the enemy.

Who’s?

Comment #25: Matt T.  on  10/12  at  07:45 PM

“Grow up, Siobhan.”

Actually your whole smug rant makes me think “Grow up.”  There are actually other viewpoints than yours; and of course a middle-aged woman is no one *you* want to hear from, being we’re so out of touch and all, but if you will allow me to speak (this is your blog, and I respect your right to allow and disallow) then my opinion is that my opinion is as good and valid as yours - even if it’s different and more experienced.

“And no, I’m not married.  I’m a conscientious objector.”

So how do you get to decide that marriage does what you say it does?  For what it’s worth, that line also makes me cry - not because it’s *true* but because it’s sad.  It is true sometimes; definitely not all.  And if it were so universally true (ok, not universally, but just “overall” or “most of the time”) then why DO some gay people want it so much?  I’m not asking that trollishly but honestly.  Because (and I could be wrong) I *thought* you supported gay marriage and if you do, why don’t you just tell gay people that they’re better off WITHOUT IT?  Because all it does is grind down “Love” and destroy it?  (Part of my desire for you to “grow up” is because you seem to have a specific version of what “love” even means.  Marriage is not conducive to constant passion, to be sure.  That would not be my definition of love.)

“In no small part because of tactics like yours.  If marriage is so great, then how come there’s so much pressure on women to get ensconced in one to “prove” that they’re acceptable members of the human race, having been inducted by being chosen by men, who have all the power to decide who gets in and doesn’t?”

I don’t accept the premise.

“If marriage is so great, it should sell itself.  Instead, it’s like the triple threat pressure Olympics.  The carrot is an expensive wedding where everyone fusses over you, and the stick is the threat of being a spinster.  I’m skeptical of any institution that bullies and bribes women to participate.”

Actually we agree wholeheartedly on the issue of “weddings.”  Weddings aren’t marriage.  Weddings are sort of the antithesis of marriage, IMO.  At least what weddings have become.  Women seem to demand them as some sort of right - to become a “princess” for a day and a bitch for a year prior.  To spend an obscene amount of money (no amount is too much!) and be, as I say, a princess.  I dislike the “princess” mentality as much as I dislike a lot of things.  IMO if one wants to get married, one should get *married.*  And put all the thought behind that that it deserves.  It’s not an easy row to hoe, it’s not for everyone, and it’s not an excuse for bitchery or greed or anything else behind “weddings.”

And I still loathe that “little bit” (actually LOT) “superior” tone about your liberalism, and your age - do you actually think you may never BE the middle aged woman (you’re closing in fast)?  Or that liberals are superior?  It’s offensive to those with more experience who might just think differently than you, Amanda.

Comment #26: siobhan  on  10/12  at  07:48 PM

By the way, can I add that local fans of Bruce have a slightly different view of things?  I’m a Jersey-an-ite-whatever and followed the guy through a LOT of changes and a LOT of fan changes.  He’s not been “one of us” since he married Hollywood, or even before.  So his “working class views” are those dispensed as mandates from “on high” and we recognized that pretty much earlier than the rest of the country.  Before Clemons left, even.

Our motto may STILL be “Born to Run” (and yes - whenever I strap on my teenage self, that still IS my motto) but we didn’t kid ourselves he was speaking FOR us.  Just ABOUT us.  And often wrongly.

Comment #27: siobhan  on  10/12  at  07:53 PM

Gah, can’t add - sorry - but a former boss of mine was a personal friend of the Boss, and by the time he went on the national scene, you couldn’t go down to Asbury Park and watch the guy anymore, and he’s Married Hollywood (NOT the Jersey Girl) he used to go down to Asbury Park in a wig so no one would recognize him.  REAL man of the people there.  LOL.  He was the elite long after he was still talking about the common man.

Comment #28: siobhan  on  10/12  at  07:55 PM

“Marriage grinds Love down”

It certainly tests love. And the love bond changes with age, and, I’m told, with children. As an “institution”, it’s certainly wanting in so many ways. Like any social institution. And not just for women.

But it beats the alternative. (And I’m not talking here about registering your love with the state, but committing to someone - by way of some ritual - exclusively and indefinitely.) You’ll see.

Comment #29: wapsie  on  10/12  at  08:13 PM

Quite true, wapsie.

Comment #30: siobhan  on  10/12  at  08:25 PM

Jesus, I’m SPRUNG FROM CAGES ON HIGHWAY NINE!!! (Steppin’ out over the line.)

Oh, hell, thanks, Amanda; I’m reliving those days now!!!!!!!!!!

Comment #31: siobhan  on  10/12  at  08:41 PM

Makes you wonder why some gay people want it so much.

Same reason straight people do I guess, life is so much better when you can take your misery out on someone you love.  Oh yeah, and the tiny reward of outliving someone long enough to claim their life insurace pittance.

Everyone talking about “The River” makes me glad I’m not able to have kids.  Of course, if I get to the point that I hate my husband, I physically won’t be able to walk away from the marriage so…

Comment #32: Godless Heathen  on  10/12  at  08:44 PM

“Same reason straight people do I guess, life is so much better when you can take your misery out on someone you love.  Oh yeah, and the tiny reward of outliving someone long enough to claim their life insurace pittance”

Hehe.  YES!  Now…WHY do some gay people want it so much?  And I don’t really care about that but why the HELL does Amanda seem to WANT them to have it so much I could be wrong; maybe she doesn’t.

Comment #33: siobhan  on  10/12  at  08:54 PM

Everyone pay attention to Siobhan.  She is Very Smart and Very Important and Doesn’t Have To Prove It To You Fucks.

Seriously, you are whiny.  Your “authority” that I should respect was shot the second you tried to ugly-bait me.  Taunting a woman with her supposed unacceptability as a item for purchase on the marriage market is a tactic that automatically excludes you from the ranks of the thoughtful. 

Wapsie, whenever married people smugly imply that I’m just short on maturity, and I’ll “learn” to be like them, I think about a very famous wedding scene.  I’m not immature, nor am I incapable of commitment. In fact, the ease in which I slip into commitment is funny to friends—-I think I’ve spent a sum total of one year of my life, in bits and pieces, since I was 19 without a boyfriend.  The “wisdom” I’ll gain from being in LTRs is already there, and I find the entire thing overrated in wisdom-developing, and presumably by people who feel weirdly defensive about monogamy. My objections do not stem from immaturity.  I have actually thought long and hard about my choices.  Interestingly, back to the point of the post, one serious problem with marriage is you are guilted and baited into it, and so a lot of people enter it without thinking.

But they’re automatically more mature than me, of course.  Because wedding rings impart maturity powers.

I should have guessed that my random footnote about an observation of what often (but not always) happens would become the focus of the post.  Criticizing marriage as an institution makes people as defensive as criticizing religion as an institution, if not more so.

Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/12  at  09:01 PM

One more thing, siobhan—-the “I’m older and therefore wiser” ruse is the hallmark of someone who is intellectually lazy.  You assume wisdom washes over you with age.  In reality, you need to think.  Your attempts to find an easy way out have not made you wiser, but they have made you shockingly un-self-aware.  Really, it’s embarrassing.

Can’t believe you tried to ugly bait me and then tried to pretend you’re more mature.  Not ugly-baiting someone is a sign of maturity far more than candles on the cake.

Comment #35: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/12  at  09:08 PM

Count me as another conscientious objector.
And if one more person, online or IRL, calls me immature for not wanting to be married there will be casualties. 
And hey, Siobhan, thanks for derailing an interesting thread.

Comment #36: Nico  on  10/12  at  09:15 PM

...but including a glaring grammatical error to make that point might be a little too smart for the room. Any room.

Just between you and I, it’s a pretty common hypercorrection. smile

Comment #37: SamFromUtah  on  10/12  at  09:20 PM

“She is Very Smart and Very Important and Doesn’t Have To Prove It To You Fucks.”

Amanda is WAY more important than you - she is much too important to be captured!  hehe.

Comment #38: siobhan  on  10/12  at  09:23 PM

I also love “The River” (right up there with “Backstreets” for me, especially the live version), though I’ve been lucky enough not to have lived that reality.  As for marriage, I still love my husband of 26 years, so I’m very lucky there also.  However, I spend every day of my working life being confronted with the overwhelming problems of the less well-off in this country, as I’m a child psychologist and nurse practitioner who works with (mostly low-income) children.  I’ve had many opportunities to see the wreckage that accompanies having children too soon and without planning, which is why I teach sex ed classes (including information on birth control) for many of the kids I work with, and strongly support abortion rights.  To me, that’s the message of “The River”: the impossibility of finding any kind of happiness when you don’t have enough money and have been forced to take on adult responsibilities way too young.  The song doesn’t talk about the impact on the children, but believe me, it’s terrible.

Comment #39: beckya57  on  10/12  at  09:29 PM

No, I’m not important.  Obviously, I’m just too ugly for anyone to want me.  It couldn’t be anything else, right?  Sheesh.  Self awareness is all too often inversely proportionate to intelligence.

Comment #40: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/12  at  09:35 PM

Don’t hide behind unimportance Amanda.  You said it, you owned it, please.

Comment #41: siobhan  on  10/12  at  09:41 PM

siobhan, how old *are* you?  I want to know if I’m smarter than you or not. 

I’m married, so I guess I am mature.

The simple reason Amanda wants gays to be allowed to marry (each other) is because they should be allowed to do anything straight people are allowed to do.  I think they should also be allowed to vote Republican, buy overpriced housing, sing off-key and buy lottery tickets.

Comment #42: oldfeminist  on  10/12  at  10:05 PM

“I can’t think of much else that describes any better the process by which Marriage grinds Love down and destroys it.”

I resent the hell out of that statement.  You can’t live with someone long term (decades, a lifetime), share finances (good and bad), childcare, health crises, death, car wrecks, job loss, moodiness, nursing friends through their pains, loves, changes - without wearing patience down.

It would be more accurate to say that living with someone long term if there’s a lack of communication or if the dedication/commitment to the partnership is not equal is what grinds love down and destroys it.

I’m married to my partner, but that doesn’t mean that our love is less significant because we have the certificate.  There are many people that want to be married and can’t be - and I suspect your words would piss them off too.

Comment #43: aldea  on  10/12  at  10:41 PM

siobhan, how old *are* you?  I want to know if I’m smarter than you or not. 

I’m married, so I guess I am mature.

Well, I’m middle aged (50) and divorced. I dont know how smart that makes me. But I know that marriage can be wonderful, because I have friends that’s true for. It can also be exactly as Amanda described it, and I know this because its also been true for people I know.

“Traditional” marriage as understood in a pre-feminist concept, or in a society which still has not reached parity for women can be a very raw deal for us - the workload is very unbalanced in many marriages, and this is true even for feminists and male feminist allies. It’s the default, and hard not to fall into.

Comment #44: Broce  on  10/12  at  11:00 PM

“siobhan, how old *are* you?  I want to know if I’m smarter than you or not.

I’m married, so I guess I am mature.

The simple reason Amanda wants gays to be allowed to marry (each other) is because they should be allowed to do anything straight people are allowed to do.  I think they should also be allowed to vote Republican, buy overpriced housing, sing off-key and buy lottery tickets. “

LOL - ok, no argument there.

And aldea, Amanda’s words piss many off - that’s their purpose smile

Comment #45: siobhan  on  10/12  at  11:26 PM

aidea, if it’s not about you, it’s not about you.  I suspect that many people who make marriage work well with love somehow managed to read that and say, “Yeah, I’ve seen that happen to other people.  I sure am lucky.”  You can see them in this thread, in fact.  I fail to see why I have to deny the facts on the ground, which is that many couples slide into stifling, socially prescribed roles that suffocates their love.  In fact, you admit it.  I fail to see why I have to uphold an illusion you admit is an illusion.  And it’s a fact that this song is sad because it’s about something that plagues people, and sticking our heads up our asses and whistling about how wonderful marriage is all the time for everyone hasn’t done a damn thing to reduce the divorce rate.

Comment #46: Amanda Marcotte  on  10/12  at  11:34 PM

To paraphrase a quote originally about religion:

Businesses may come and go, but marriage will last forever, for in no other endeavor does the consumer blame him/herself for product failure.

Siobhan, I’m a few month shy of half-a-century, I’ve been married without kids for more than a decade, and I wasn’t offended by what Amanda wrote about marriage.  It’s an institution that primarily serves the male heterosexuals in our society, and if indeed you do have a good marriage, your reaction seems peculiar.

DON JUAN. In that case, what is virtue but the Trade Unionism of the married? Let us face the facts, dear Ana. The Life Force respects marriage only because marriage is a contrivance of its own to secure the greatest number of children and the closest care of them. For honor, chastity and all the rest of your moral figments it cares not a rap. Marriage is the most licentious of human institutions—

ANA. Juan!

THE STATUE. [protesting] Really!—

DON JUAN. [determinedly] I say the most licentious of human institutions: that is the secret of its popularity. And a woman seeking a husband is the most unscrupulous of all the beasts of prey. The confusion of marriage with morality has done more to destroy the conscience of the human race than any other single error. Come, Ana! do not look shocked: you know better than any of us that marriage is a mantrap baited with simulated accomplishments and delusive idealizations. When your sainted mother, by dint of scoldings and punishments, forced you to learn how to play half a dozen pieces on the spinet which she hated as much as you did—had she any other purpose than to delude your suitors into the belief that your husband would have in his home an angel who would fill it with melody, or at least play him to sleep after dinner? You married my friend Ottavio: well, did you ever open the spinet from the hour when the Church united him to you?

ANA. You are a fool, Juan. A young married woman has something else to do than sit at the spinet without any support for her back; so she gets out of the habit of playing.

DON JUAN. Not if she loves music. No: believe me, she only throws away the bait when the bird is in the net.

ANA. [bitterly] And men, I suppose, never throw off the mask when their bird is in the net. The husband never becomes negligent, selfish, brutal—oh never!

DON JUAN. What do these recriminations prove, Ana? Only that the hero is as gross an imposture as the heroine.

ANA. It is all nonsense: most marriages are perfectly comfortable.

DON JUAN. “Perfectly” is a strong expression, Ana. What you mean is that sensible people make the best of one another. Send me to the galleys and chain me to the felon whose number happens to be next before mine; and I must accept the inevitable and make the best of the companionship. Many such companionships, they tell me, are touchingly affectionate; and most are at least tolerably friendly. But that does not make a chain a desirable ornament nor the galleys an abode of bliss. Those who talk most about the blessings of marriage and the constancy of its vows are the very people who declare that if the chain were broken and the prisoners left free to choose, the whole social fabric would fly asunder. You cannot have the argument both ways. If the prisoner is happy, why lock him in? If he is not, why pretend that he is?

Comment #47: The Dark Avenger and Guardian of 10 Gold Chow Mein  on  10/13  at  01:07 AM

And aldea, Amanda’s words piss many off - that’s their purpose

Siobhan, some of us are even mature enough to disagree with some of Amanda’s arguments, point out, even in the very first comment that she missed the point of “The River”, and not engage in personal attacks on Amanda and act out in some sort of rage that Amanda has offended your precious sensibilities.

Amanda’s words piss you off. The rest of us deal with them like adults.

Comment #48: Tyro  on  10/13  at  01:16 AM

Siobhan’s enraged reaction, to a post on the not very momentous topic of different ways of interpreting Springsteen’s lyrics, is hard to figure.  Presumably Amanda is subbing in for the real bee in Siobhan’s bonnet, whatever it might be.

What’s actually sad, meanwhile, is that there are parts of indie-world in which Bonnie Prince Billy, a songwriter with some melodic gifts but no greater endowments in the thinking and insight departments than Marilyn Manson (and no less affectation than same), might give credibility to Springsteen, rather than the other way around.

Comment #49: Jason  on  10/13  at  01:34 AM

I am 24 and married so I figure that makes me very mature but at the same time very dumb.

Comment #50: GumbyAnne  on  10/13  at  03:10 AM

“In no small part because of tactics like yours.  If marriage is so great, then how come there’s so much pressure on women to get ensconced in one to “prove” that they’re acceptable members of the human race, having been inducted by being chosen by men, who have all the power to decide who gets in and doesn’t?”

I don’t accept the premise.

Um…sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, Siobhan, but “NUH UH” doesn’t really count as an argument.

do you actually think…that liberals are superior?

Depends.  Are you our example of conservatism?

It’s offensive to those with more experience who might just think differently than you, Amanda.

Experience isn’t the be-all and end-all you seem to think it is.  It’s entirely possible to be stupid for a long time.

Comment #51: Seraph  on  10/13  at  03:27 AM

“Marriage grinds Love down”

It certainly tests love. And the love bond changes with age, and, I’m told, with children. As an “institution”, it’s certainly wanting in so many ways. Like any social institution. And not just for women.

But it beats the alternative.

Are you actually saying that any marriage is better than none?  Seriously?

(And I’m not talking here about registering your love with the state, but committing to someone - by way of some ritual - exclusively and indefinitely.)

Hmm.  I’m interested in this little interjection.  Why do you feel a ritual is necessary?

You’ll see.

She’ll outgrow all this feminist silliness, and get on with her real life, right?

Comment #52: Seraph  on  10/13  at  03:30 AM

Another one here who has to speak about about missing the point of “The River”.  It’s not about *marriage* grinding love down, it’s about the “shotgun wedding” scenario leading to long-term unhappiness.

To bring it back to the immediate political realm, Bristol Palin is well on her way to living “The River” almost verbatim, not because she’s getting married, but because she’s getting married as a teenager as a direct result of getting pregnant as a teenager.

(I suppose I should point out that I’m speaking as a guy who’s divorced and probably heading toward another marriage, and has no kids or intentions for them; but I had this understanding of the song long ago.)


Also, yay for Coverville.  I’m a longtime fan of it, and I’m actually listening to part 2 of the Springsteen “cover story” right now.

Comment #53: Rob Funk  on  10/13  at  10:33 AM

“The resurgence of ugly right wing populism reminds me of one of the more amusing ironies that makes liberals feel superior, which is the disconnect between Springsteen (humongous liberal) and the right wing leaning of so many working and middle class white people who relate to his music.  It’s a microcosm of this major frustration—-they can get so close, identifying the forces that make their lives harder, and yet can’t make that final leap into realizing what has to be done to make it better, instead pouring out their bitterness into a vote for Republicans.  (Obviously, not all, but a significant percentage.)”

This is interesting.  I didn’t realize that Springsteen’s fan base was mostly right wing - I did know that it is very white - in fact, going to a springsteen show was perhaps the whitest experience i have ever had (btw, i am white and lefty and i loooove bruce).  Related to that, I have to question your premise that working-class people voting republican makes liberals feel superior.  Given that working-class people are much more likely to vote democratic than rich folks, I think the causal relationship needs to be reversed - in other words, i would argue that liberals overemphasize the right-wing values of the working class in order to feel superior, or in order to justify their existing sense of superiority.  In fact, I might even go farther and suggest that it reinforces a sense of entitlement whereby highly privileged liberals (and yes, i realize that this is only a *subset* of liberals, but one that i happen to know pretty well) get to rationalize their privilege by telling themselves that they are more enlightened and hence more deserving than all those deluded and/or hateful working people.

As for springsteen, i agree that what makes him so accessible is that he doesn’t preach and (i would add) he doesn’t condescend.  He writes about real people and, most importantly, he empathizes with them.  His politics is a politics of compassion and not of ideological self-righteousness.  I think we can learn a lot from that.

Comment #54: amy  on  10/13  at  02:46 PM

The music is the main problem.  Springsteen musicians are artless and blunt.

Sure—if by “artless” and “blunt” you mean epic and awesome.

Seriously, I wasn’t aware Springsteen’s reputation was in need of revival. I mean, if ever anyone was a critical darling, it’s Springsteen. Where are these people who do not like Bruce Springsteen? Even the people I know who have a “respect, don’t love” relationship to his solo stuff dig the hell out of that record of Seeger covers—which is undeniably awesome.

I’m a huge Tortoise fan but I’m not wild about that “Thunder Road” cover with Bonnie Prince Billy. It’s actually much less subtle than the original, because it takes the song’s subtext and forgrounds it in the music, so the song’s narrator sounds like a fucking serial killer. What makes Bruce’s version great is that the music is all joyful release, a sonic representation of the kind of escape the narrator is imagining. But it’s obvious from the lyrics that the kid is going nowhere—you don’t need Bruce to underline that point for you in the music, too.

Comment #55: DJA  on  10/13  at  05:44 PM

I wasn’t saying anything about social constraints, the pressures on women to marry, inequality within it etc. etc. Your post was about the song, how sad it was, and my comment was based solely on what you said about marriage killing love. I think that living together through the every day shit, married or not, can do the same.

Comment #56: aldea  on  10/13  at  07:44 PM

I think that Springsteen has ascended to the place with the indie kids that Brian Wilson occupied a few years back. To a lot of musicians, Springsteen reflects the indie ideal.

But yeah, some people don’t understand why Springsteen is so revered, just like some people still think the Beach Boys were just a bubble gum band.

Comment #57: Hippie Killer  on  10/13  at  09:46 PM

“Springsteen musicians are artless and blunt.”

Even for a self-professed music snob, this is a bit much. IMHO as a professional musician, “Springsteen musicians,” and particularly the E Street Band, are exactly what they need to be in order to deliver the goods night after night, year after year: Great players dedicated to the music and their sound. And if you’re looking for art in Rock & Roll, look no further than the guitar work of Nils Lofgren or the wonderful organ/accordion playing by the late Danny Federici.

Otherwise, a very thoughtful posting. Thanks.

Comment #58: Rodger French  on  10/15  at  05:04 AM
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