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Next entry: If Andrew Breitbart edited it…. Previous entry: Don’t shoot a milk enema all over my leg and tell me it’s raining

Why not censorship

The issue of “Why not censorship?” came up in the thread below making fun of the Buttman videos and the rationalizations you hear for misogynist, racist pornography.  I denounced censorship as firmly as I could to quell the “FEMINISTS ARE ALL PRUDES AND CENSORS” nonsense, but then of course I didn’t adequately prepare for people saying, in essence, if you think that a lot of porn is racist, misogynist hate speech, why not ban it?

I thought I’d distill my reasons for this free speech absolutism.  This post will assume, for the sake of argument, that it’s possible to create a fair government definition of “hate speech” that could be enforced.  I don’t believe that’s true, and that any such standard would immediately be mostly used to oppress feminist and pro-gay speech, but let’s just assume for the sake of argument that it’s possible.  Censoring hateful pornography would still be wrong, for a few major reasons.

Censorship is a distraction from constructive progressive work.

The thread below is a classic example of this.  I called out for creative ideas on how to subvert hateful pornography by using its existence for feminist ends—-to illustrate what we mean by “misogyny”, to open up a discussion about ways to celebrate sexuality without hating women, to talk about the ways that racism and sexism work together, to work as a warning signal to women about who not to date.  The idea of censorship was floated, and all other potential responses were thrown out the window while everyone obsessed over how to censor, whether to censor, how to define what is and isn’t eligible for censorship.  That’s a huge waste of energy and time.

Censorship cannot kill ideas, particularly widespread ones.

So, let’s say we come up with a regime that is able to wipe out all hardcore pornography organized around the idea, “Women, especially sexually active women, suck and need to be treated like the dirty cunts they are.”  That’s probably not going to do a damn thing to wipe out that widespread and super-popular message.  It will still be out there in forms like Maxim magazine, beer commercials, the pulpits of anti-choicers, and the party platform of the Republican party.  Trying to censor all that basically would mean a complete end to all forms of freedom of speech.  And even after all, I’ll bet that misogynists will still be misogynists.

Tyrants suppress what they cannot argue with.

People tend to get this intuitively, and would assume that the only reason that the government is out to suppress the message, “Women, especially sexually active women, suck and need to be treated like the dirty cunts they are,” is that it’s the truth and they can’t handle the truth.  By suppressing people who want to express their hatred of women out loud, or in commercial forms like porn, we would allow them to paint themselves as bold rebels speaking truths the rest of us are afraid to confront.  When, in fact, they are assholes promoting easily debunked, hateful arguments.

But Amanda, don’t you ban disruptive trolls?!

This is why there’s got to be critical distinctions between actually suppressing speech and creating spaces for certain discussions.  I’ve heard the argument, “Women (or fill in whatever group) suck and deserve to be treated like they’re subhuman.”  It’s been debunked.  If I wanted to write a blog that was just about debunking that argument over and over and over again without saying anything new or interesting, then that’s what I’d write.  This is a different blog.  That someone has a right to say whatever they want doesn’t mean they’re entitled to an audience.  No one has a right to commandeer this audience that Jesse, Pam, and I (and our gracious commenting community) built up to have certain discussions.  We’re no more obligated to print some troll’s nonsense than Random House is obliged to publish it. 

Indeed, I would say disruptive trolling is essentially anti-freedom of speech, in that the troll wants to shut down certain conversations that he thinks shouldn’t exist here or anywhere.  He’s denying the right of us to run a blog that communicates what we want to communicate.  We have a right here to conduct conversations on our grounds, not just hand it over to some guy who has managed to hone his skills at shouting others down and making intelligent discussion impossible. 

The best reaction to offensive speech is more speech.

I’d like to think my post below is an example of the best way to resist hate speech, by exposing it for what it is.  Instead of driving curiosity about what’s being censored or making the targets of criticism seem like freedom fighters, I just pointed out that it’s a rather tedious and frankly juvenile form of misogyny, consumed mainly by life’s losers who spend their energies hating on women instead of working on not being losers. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 02:36 PM • (162) Comments

Well said!  The solution is not eliminating the sources of such offensive “speech”, but in eliminating the demand for it.  Education, not censorship, is the road forward.  Arguably, censorship actually encourages such hateful speech.  Mockery is much more effective.

Comment #1: DrDick  on  07/20  at  03:13 PM

I hate the argument ‘you believe in free speech, so you’re a hypocrite for censoring comments on your website.’  I don’t really have anything important to change to your point in response to it, but it’s just worth stressing:  a society with national free speech doesn’t have to be a society where you can’t kick people out of your house/website for being a jackass.  And I think this can reasonably extend to much larger private spaces, like universities:  this a specific, private community and can control the conduct that goes on there, including speech.  Go to a different school if you don’t like it.  That’s a free and open society.

A public state will make bad and bizarre choices when it tries to censor speech, and the less it does it, the better, because there are no easy options to change trains in citizenship.

Comment #2: Loch Ness Monster  on  07/20  at  03:17 PM

So, let’s say we come up with a regime that is able to wipe out all hardcore pornography organized around the idea, “Women, especially sexually active women, suck and need to be treated like the dirty cunts they are.” That’s probably not going to do a damn thing to wipe out that widespread and super-popular message.

Firstly, I think you’re wrong on this count.  Censorship does a great job of crushing a message.  Take climate change and evolution debates.  One of the right wing tactics is to suppress and segregate pro-climate/evo information from their base.  Once the base has been inundated with right wing viewpoints and blocked from hearing left wing viewpoints, they tend to agree with right wing views much more readily.  CC and Evo aren’t eliminated, but the denialist view definitely dominates.

Secondly, I wouldn’t call this kind of misogynist pornography widespread and super-popular.  I doubt I could find one guy in twenty that would admit he finds this kind of thing attractive.  Maybe one in ten who would genuinely be interested in viewing it for more than a pure novelty.

Finally, I think you’re missing a bigger note here.  We can have the debate “Is the milk enema a truly legitimate form of art and expression?” till you die of old age.  You’re never going to debate that issue away, any more than you can debate away racism or homophobia or class warfare.  So long as someone, somewhere can turn a profit by catering to the ten thousand porno-watching milk enema fetishists, he’ll do it.  If there isn’t a barrier to entering the market.

I can’t say that talking about milk enemas should be outlawed.  I can’t even say that inflicting or filming milk enemas should be outlawed.  But I do think we can have an honest conversation about profiting from the sale of said videos.  This isn’t some free shit up on YouTube.  This is exploiting your labor by abusing him/her both physically and mentally.  Not significantly different from a snuff film.  And we don’t allow snuff films just because the guy in front of the camera is suicidal.

Likewise, I’m not clear why every form of “expression” gets a pass once it gets to the cash register.

Comment #3: Zifnab25  on  07/20  at  03:29 PM

I doubt I could find one guy in twenty that would admit he finds this kind of thing attractive

Keyword: admit.

Even then, I will venture out and say that if they can admit it in a semi-private manner (like: under a cover of pseudonymity on the Internet) a whole goddamn lot of them will admit to it. And you can see that truth all over the Interwebs.

Comment #4: BlackBloc  on  07/20  at  03:35 PM

You used an example of people monitoring their own intake of information to argue that government censorship doesn’t work.

Bad argument.  In fact, you just proved that force doesn’t work, at all. That people are subjected to facts and they still choose to reject those facts and hide in a cubbyhole of bullshit is exactly why trying to create thoughtcrime is stupid.  People are going to believe what they want, and if they can’t communicate it in way X, they will communicate it in way Y.

As for commercial speech, meh.  Any law that said the government can censor you based on money is a law that would immediately be applicable to all professional writers, profitable newspapers, etc.  Goodbye Daily Kos with its advertising.  Saynora, Rachel Maddow.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  03:38 PM

Also: one of the greatest ironies in my life is that I’ve never seen a Christian forum being trolled by atheists posting of nasty pornographic images, but I’ve seen atheist forums being trolled by such, and while I’m sure Christians will post a lot of No True Scotsman explanations for it, who else would be likely to want to shut down an atheist forum than one of their (fundamentalist) own? In fact, the first examples before the troll in question decided to just dump unending streams of images without wasting time writing content was where he was saying (paraphrasing) “Here is what gays do, how is it you’re not disgusted? Atheists have no moral understanding.”

Comment #6: BlackBloc  on  07/20  at  03:39 PM

The way that a decent government can respond to racist speech and misogynous porn is simple:  Allow it to be published, but also let people who are injured by it bring claims for redress.  We have tort law and civil rights law available to remedy harmful behaviors that are not criminal—let’s use it!  Calling the behavior a civil rights violation doesn’t conclude the case: people who bring claims would have to prove that they suffered an injury and the racist speech or porn caused the harm.

Sure, the people who would have to pay holler Censorship!!, just as the trolls do.  That doesn’t make it so.  Just because someone is using words doesn’t mean he can’t be forced to pay for the harm he commits.  We’re already “censoring” deceptive advertising, fraudulent statements, defamation, etc.

The activists who proposed a torts/civil rights response to porn were Andrea Dworkin and Catharine MacKinnon.  Predictably, the response to their idea was all ZOMG EEBIL FEMINAZIS.  But they were right.

Comment #7: Unree  on  07/20  at  03:40 PM

Fuck, I really have a lot of thinking and probably reading to do on this, because just when amanda convinced me, I read zifnab’s post, and I think, yeah what about that!  It’s weird because I am so rarely, if ever, unable to make up my mind about something.  It’s so unusual for me.

For now, I’ll just say that the same guy who wrote that piece about how he went from being a free speech absolutist to something a bit less than that, after a conversation with a holocaust survivor, also, and completely independently of that, got stopped while walking around a city to sign a petition to allow a porn store (mostly video’s I think.) to open in his neighborhood.  He said, nah he didn’t want to sign it.  And the guy said you know, this is freedom of speech.  And he answered, yeah, I know, I know it is, but you know, it really degrades women and I just don’t want to sign that. 

I guess out here where you don’t have to come down 100% on one side or the other, maybe a lot of us have mixed feelings and really struggle to balance them. 

In a “my nigel” moment, I’m just really glad that the guy who couldn’t sign it is my partner.  smile  Sorry, I had to indulge!

But, seriously, lots to think about here, and that’s always time well spent for me.  Back to work now.

Comment #8: JennyLI  on  07/20  at  03:40 PM

Adding to Amanda’s excellent points, and responding to Zifnab at #3, one more point:

Porn will continue to exist if you ban it, just like prostitution continues to exist in this country. What criminalizing the porn industry will do is push it further into the criminal underworld of human trafficking, and an industry that already victimizes and disadvantages women will become even worse.

Child porn is banned because producing it is absolutely intolerable under any circumstances. I think, as much as it pains me, we have to realize that as long as consenting adults are the only parties involved, we need to hold our nose and not sick the cops on everyone involved.

Comment #9: humanadverb  on  07/20  at  03:40 PM

Wow, I walked in on something that I thought would be an open and shut case of “yes, censorship is bad” but clearly not today.  The fundamental difference between right-wing censorship and the censorship that Ms. Marcotte is talking about is that the right-wing censorship is a more cult-style censorship, by creating a sphere of influence and then ignoring the other side and demonizing them.  What she was speaking of is legal outright banning of some material which has far reaching effects.  It is comparable to creating secret trust agreements vs mergers, both have the same desired effect but a merger is a very public incident that changes the perception of everybody. 

Now I am not sure what pornography we’re discussing here but I’ll imagine some very degrading and disturbing porn for the argument.  Psychologists are testing out whether pornography makes us more degrading toward the opposite sex or not, I am more suspect to believe they’re putting the cart before the horse.  That the porn users are far more likely to be predisposed to this attitude and the porn they watch caters to their specific taste.  No amount of censorship will stop those people from feeling that way and the best argument to deal with them is better training society as a whole. 

As for the profiting argument, if it was censored by the federal government it would move to smaller more secret operations or move off-shore.  Unless the laws explicitly made it like child pornography where one photo gets you a lifetime sentence the producers will simply avoid US soil.  The kind of money to be had in the pornography industry is serious enough to allow them to move around freely without fear of retribution.

Comment #10: Xeranar  on  07/20  at  03:41 PM

Freedom of speech, is widely seen as being a negative right. That is, it restricts actions that the government can take to stop you from having your freedom of speech (that it often does so anyway is a whole different matter). I however believe in positive rights. That is, that we should respect the rights and freedoms of others and act accordingly.

It’s why I don’t think you should just ban people from your blog for disagreeing. Not that it happens here! Nowhere close to it. Usually people are given a rope, and it’s not disagreeing, but being a jerkwad and an asshole that gets people banned. I have seen places…usually in the right wing, where people are banned for simple civil disagreements.

Likewise, banning such things we don’t like from the top down, is really a fine line towards censorship, which is a bad thing. Now personally, I haven’t read the previous post (been busy), but my quick take on it is that the whole milk enema thing (WTF?!?) is just another form of mysongist porn. Noting more, nothing less. Which is a horrible thing. But banning it just entrenches it, unfortunately.

Comment #11: Karmakin  on  07/20  at  03:42 PM

By the way, if one in 20 men bought a specific record in a year, that would make it about as popular as Nirvana’s Nevermind.

Comment #12: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  03:44 PM

Here’s a devil’s advocate position: look at how abortion as a reasonable choice has been written out of the public discourse. Didn’t even take active fullblown censorship, just the death of a thousand cuts. What would be the equivalent for some of this wankfodder?

(And another vote for “blog moderation comments have nothing to do with censorship; not being able to say something everywhere you want to is the way the universe works.”

Comment #13: paul  on  07/20  at  03:45 PM

My personal approach is to support the organization of sex workers (locally, the group Stella). One day (I hope) people will be communally fed and clothed and such based on their needs and not wages, but until that day comes, I support unionism.

I often don’t agree with Stella because, as a semi-union they need to represent all their members, even those who aren’t feminists and are critical of any attacks on sex work (even where justified). But their work is at least part of what’s needed out there, so I support them with critical reservations.

Comment #14: BlackBloc  on  07/20  at  03:46 PM

Yeah, people are banned here mainly for being disruptive.  The rules are no threadjacking (which is an attempt to suppress our right to hold discussions of our choosing on our blog) and no freaking out and using a bunch of hate speech.  99% of wannabe trolls break these basic rules within minutes of arrival.  Which is one reason I think that people too much thought into any kind of censorship—-we have a pretty great community with a minimum of regulation.

Comment #15: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  03:49 PM

I do think the best way to both deal with the problem and work towards an end game where this kind of hatefulness doesn’t exist any more is regulating the industry heavily for abuse of workers, taking care of sex workers, and creating a culture of respect for them.  As the whole point of abusive pornography is degrading women, creating standards where actual degradation isn’t allowed will probably go far to making the consumers of it less interested in spending their money there.

Comment #16: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  03:52 PM

But Amanda, don’t you ban disruptive trolls?!

I used to moderate a popular sports web site.  We tended to try to encourage free speech, discussion, etc.  The set-up was slightly different than this, instead of having discussion threads attached to articles, we had general bulletin boards.  We ended up setting up categories, first we had a single board, then we added an “off-topic” board as the community grew, then one specifically for political discussions, etc.

We did sometimes have to ban posters.  Sometimes we gave a poster a time-out, when a discussion became too heated.  Permanent bans only came about when someone was destructive to the community at large (trying to hack the software, for example.) 

Alas, things changed in 2006.  A certain, well publicised incident lead to a schism in the governance of this web site.  I was eventually forced to resign since I could no longer accept the extreme views of others running the site.  Now, political discussion was closed down, and people who challenge the views of the remaining person running the site are banned. 

The site was related to Duke basketball, the incident was the Duke lacrosse incident.

Comment #17: James  on  07/20  at  03:55 PM

society with national free speech doesn’t have to be a society where you can’t kick people out of your house/website for being a jackass.

Or your bar, for that matter. Steve Gilliard used to liken his blog to a bar—private property, public accomodation, in his interest to let as many people visit and participate in the conversation as possible. But when some moron troll starts taking dumps on the floor or threatening other patrons, the bouncer is gonna be called in and someone’s gonna be tossed out on his arse.

Comment #18: Gracchus.  on  07/20  at  03:57 PM

Another problem with censorship is the problem of definitions. If we decide to censor porn, who gets to define what porn is? Its not an easy question. Somethings are obviously porn and somethings are obviously not porn but there is a blurry line. The great American censor of the 19th century Anthony Comstock thought that anything that violated the “sanctity of the family” including pamphlets teaching about birth control or advocating easier divorce procedures were pornographic. More broad minded people who are still disturbed by porn, would find this definition of porn disturbingly broad.

It gets even stickier if we try to limit the censorship of porn to misongynistic porn. Somethings would be obviously misongynistic porn, things that specifically depict women in a sub-human manner but other things would be more blurry and the fights over this would be intense.

  Agreement on these issues is not going to happen. We probably can’t even reach an agreement on who should be the boards.

Comment #19: Lee  on  07/20  at  04:00 PM

I have defriended people on my Facebook a couple of times. Once was for what I thought was an unwarranted attack by a family member I already consider to be an incorrigible bully; the other was someone I didn’t know who had a nasty habit of pulling tu quoques and bullshit moral equivalencies in political arguments. (Actually, I think the latter defriended me first, but I’m told he claims otherwise. Not that I wasn’t just about to drop the hammer myself.) In turn, I was once defriended by someone over a political debate because of my “federalist apologetics”. (Libertarians, whatcha gonna do…)

There was someone else who kept writing trolling comments about AZ SB1070—when she pulled out a (inaccurately stated) popularity statistics, I responded with “And if 85% of people jumped off the rim of the Grand Canyon, would you join them?” She hasn’t mentioned politics since.

Comment #20: BrianX  on  07/20  at  04:01 PM

#4:

Keyword: admit.

No!  Keyword:  Attractive.
I have never dated a girl nor meet a guy - online or offline - who has ever expressed a deep longing to pour milk into a girl’s butt.  Not everyone is a borderline deranged pervert.  Most guys are more than happy with “Hot chick, naked, do-in it”.  Are you suggesting there is a deep, wide-spread popularized longing for this kind of porn?  Cause I don’t think statistics will bare your assumption out.  There simply isn’t a wide collection of anal milk porn - and that which exists doesn’t get a hit count that rivals any of your vanilla “two people having normal sex”.

#9:

Child porn is banned because producing it is absolutely intolerable under any circumstances. I think, as much as it pains me, we have to realize that as long as consenting adults are the only parties involved, we need to hold our nose and not sick the cops on everyone involved.

I admit, I have a hard time arguing with this logic.  I’d say the term “consenting adult” falls into flux when you start discussing deeply abusive pornography, but then what I’m really complaining about isn’t the porn.  It’s the fact that anyone would be so desperate that they’d volunteer to produce it.

So, in that case, the real problem with this kind of pornography is poverty.  If I could be confident that everyone involved in production did so because they genuinely had other options and turned said options down to make buttmilk porn, I would have significantly less reason to object.

Comment #21: Zifnab25  on  07/20  at  04:07 PM

So many of these feministy topics come back to a question of simply rejecting that “we know better than you” frame which is a hallmark of the patriarchy, but isn’t exclusive to it. You can avoid the Fucked Up Thing, you can participate in making it, you can buy only “Not Run by Assholes” Certified pornography and advocate that others do the same… but be *very* sure of why you want to take away a person’s agency.

I hate to make an argument that feels so creepily Libertarian, but the conversation between “what we should shun into oblivion” and “what we should make illegal” is so very substantively different that I don’t understand why the first conversation always seems to bleed into the second.

Comment #22: humanadverb  on  07/20  at  04:09 PM

If we decide to censor porn, who gets to define what porn is? Its not an easy question.

Actually that is surprisingly easy:  The Supreme Court does.  They’ve decided every serious case of obscenity (the legal way to censor pornography) in the last hundred years.  They’ve tended to let pornography ride if only for the fact it is considered a form of art (for a technical standard) and while I am not sure a more racist or sexist pornography would make it past the court (Warren or otherwise) it is hard to argue that they would like to ban pornography outright because it would open the door to censoring just about anything depicting sex in any way.

Comment #23: Xeranar  on  07/20  at  04:10 PM

Zif, there’s a widespread, popular desire to watch women be put through increasingly degrading acts.  I guarantee you that “milk enemas” has almost nothing to do with a particular kink and is basically a way for Buttman to escalate a common enough trope in porn, which is “throwing semen all over dirty girls is a fun way to degrade them”.  Milk is basically just a visual representation of lots and lots of semen.

It’s an insult to men, an insult to women, and insult to everyone.  But make no mistake; this deranged worldview is super popular.

Comment #24: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  04:10 PM

“Firstly, I think you’re wrong on this count.  Censorship does a great job of crushing a message.  Take climate change and evolution debates.”

How is an outlet like Faux refusing to fairly cover an issue like Global Climate Change censorship?  There is no law making exposure of the real evidence behind GCC illegal, right?  Now I could (to some extent) agree that because the public airwaves are a limited resource that we all have partial ownership of, Faux should have to live with certain rules.  But I seriously doubt anyone would require a media outlet like Faux to carry programming that specifically supports the existence of Global Climate Change.

It seems to me that what a newspaper or a TV channel, or radio station, or web site chooses to present cannot be considered censorship no matter how restrictive their policies are.  St@rmfr@nt is vile, but those bigots should be allowed to present their vile crap to anyone dumb enough to go there.  Faux is vile, but they should be allowed to use as many lobotomized blonds as they want to peddle their manifestly Unfair & Unbalance garbage as Rupert Murdoch chooses to smear over America.

I’m glad that I can watch Riefenstahl’s classic piece of propaganda Triumph of the Will, or real Hitler’s Mein Kampf, not because I find them inspirational, but because I believe that sometimes there is no substitute for direct exposure to the original stuff, as disgusting as it can be.  For similar reasons, I think “Holocaust Denial” should be a crime against good taste and reason, not something to be punished by jail time. 

I’ve seen Texas Chainsaw Massacre, not because it’s a piece of art, but because it represents a reference point for other cinematic violence (and having seen it - some 20-years ago or so - I would decline to view it again).  I’ve seen Birth of a Nation for similar reasons.  I’ve read The Catcher in the Rye, tried to read The Satanic Verses (too boring for me), made it about 1/3 into Mein Kampf (really boring), I could read Lolita (probably not), or Lady Chatterley’s Lover, or Ulysses (I might even try it sometime), or many other books or movies that have at various times been censored.  I’ve read Huckleberry Fin.  I’d love to read The Turner Diaries (or at least try it until I can’t stand it any longer), as long as Pierce’s estate gets not a single penny.  I can read Marx or Mao, if I choose.  I can watch (or listen) to George Carlin and his Seven Dirty Words.  I can read Pandagon and revel in ideas and language that would make my mother have a stroke.

I would hate to live in an environment where none of this was legal.

When government imposes laws governing communication, that’s when censorship begins…

Comment #25: MikeEss  on  07/20  at  04:12 PM

And to be clear, a lot of degrading porn isn’t just consumed in masturbation scenarios.  The function of a lot of it is for men to pass back and forth to each other and giggle over it.  It functions in the same way that racist jokes sent over email do.

Comment #26: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  04:15 PM

I have to agree with you: censorship simply wont, and doesn’t, work. Mockery may seem a bit weak, but it’s the best available choice.

Comment #27: firefall  on  07/20  at  04:15 PM

Zif, I’m also worried about the economic dimension, and that was a big problem for me with the question of legalizing prostitution, too. But then you’re talking about using cops as a Stick-centric solution for an economic problem… like we use cops as a Stick-centric solution to the health problem of drug abuse. It just isn’t a terribly effective policy response, and it has a huge human cost.

I’m actually more concerned that this tends to be a psychological problem than an economic one, though—victims of abuse who are taught from a young age that sex is inherently transactional, who turn that perspective into a career. But, again, you end up with the problem of telling women what is best for them. A just see a tighter regulatory framework to address the worst abuses, and a lot of positive supports, is probably a better solution.

Comment #28: humanadverb  on  07/20  at  04:21 PM

Censorship does a great job of crushing a message.  Take climate change and evolution debates.

It doesn’t do as great a job as it used to in an open society, because ever since the dawn of mass media it’s been difficult to isolate people from the facts to that extent. That’s why they’ve had to counter with denialism and pseudo-science and their own BS media outlets. They’ve spent the last 60 years pouring money into everything from the Tobacco Institute to Fox News not because they want to, but precisely because state regulation of speech is anathema to this country’s core values.

there’s a widespread, popular desire to watch women be put through increasingly degrading acts.  I guarantee you that “milk enemas” has almost nothing to do with a particular kink and is basically a way for Buttman to escalate a common enough trope in porn, which is “throwing semen all over dirty girls is a fun way to degrade them”.  Milk is basically just a visual representation of lots and lots of semen.

As I said in the earlier thread, most of “Buttman’s” fans would be almost as happy if there was no nudity or sex involved, and if only the unfettered degrading sexist and racist language (and perhaps the spitting) were preserved. That is the real expression at work in these movies, and it is at its core an expression of ideology, and therefore protected.

Comment #29: Gracchus.  on  07/20  at  04:21 PM

Amanda:

It’s an insult to men, an insult to women, and insult to everyone.  But make no mistake; this deranged worldview is super popular.

Maybe I’m sheltered, but I simply haven’t seen the numbers to bare that out.  I’ve seen my share misogynist tendencies between guys and girls (one reason why your site appeals to me is a personal attempt to break out of the mindset myself), but there’s almost always a limit.  This particular breed of porn goes screaming past that limit.

I can see people watching it out of novelty or curiosity, but I don’t see many guys actually experiencing arousal.  Certainly not enough to front money to see the act performed again.  This “donkey-show” display simply isn’t the norm, from what I’ve seen.  Your average guy won’t be eager to watch it, and for those that do see it, most won’t find it attractive.

Two-Girls-One-Cup had a record hit count.  I don’t know a single solitary individual that watched the video and said, “Hey let’s watch it again.”  Some porn just isn’t popular.

Comment #30: Zifnab25  on  07/20  at  04:26 PM

Zifnab, I don’t want to post a link on this thread, but I’m sure if you turn up any of the YouTube-ish porn websites (there are very, very many—turn off the filter and play with Google), you will find easily find 95% of the stuff posted including some level of what Amanda’s describing.

Honestly, I don’t want to be graphic, so I won’t, but the direction the blow job is going is pretty seriously disturbing by itself. You kinda have to see it to believe it—and I’m not talking fetish clips.

Comment #31: humanadverb  on  07/20  at  04:37 PM

“Censorship does a great job of crushing a message.  Take climate change and evolution debates.”

There is a difference between making something democratically unviable and making something disappear. Censorship may work to convince more than 50% +1 of the people that we don’t need to address climate change or actively protect abortion rights, but they cerainly don’t prevent everyone from believin in global warming or keep abortion from being one of the most popular out-patient procedure.

With porn, we aren’t talking about 50%+1 of the people. Even if just 1% of American men are in to this sort of vile humiliation bullshit, that is a shit ton of mysogynist ass holes and a hell of a lot of exploited porn stars. Censorship can keep something out of the mainstream but not eliminate it completely.

Tha being said, I really don’t know what action to take. How does one even mock ridiculous porn that noone has ever heard of? How can one criticize any porn without getting labeled a humorless, un-impowferlized, hairy feminazi?

Comment #32: alysia  on  07/20  at  04:43 PM

Zif, I’m also worried about the economic dimension, and that was a big problem for me with the question of legalizing prostitution, too. But then you’re talking about using cops as a Stick-centric solution for an economic problem… like we use cops as a Stick-centric solution to the health problem of drug abuse. It just isn’t a terribly effective policy response, and it has a huge human cost.

Well, drugs are a perfect example of where I fall on this debate.  One the one hand, I think throwing folks in jail for possessing a few ounces of weed is insane.  On the other hand, I don’t entirely feel comfortable with letting Corporate America have free reign in growing and selling a mild narcotic like this.

I don’t want cops pounding down everyone’s door.  I don’t want a devil-may-care deregulatory policy instituted, either.  You can regulate the porn industry far more than it has already been regulated.  You can create a branch of the labor department that caters to sex workers.  You can legalize prostitution and get everyone paying taxes.  You can limit what material is allowed to be produced by limiting what material is allowed to be sold.  If we can regulate pharmaceuticals, we can regulate blowjobs.

And folks who want to import through the mainstream, open-access channels can obey the laws.  They can reap the lion’s share of the revenue.  And the black-marketeers can pick over the scraps.

There’s a reason we don’t have a serious black market cigarette problem or a black market whiskey epidemic.  It’s simply more profitable to play by the rules and obey regulations than to take your entire industry underground and turn your distribution network over to the mafia.

I’ll accept that some of this slim will still get produced, and I’ll accept that censorship won’t make the demand go away, but I’m not going to swallow the old conservative bullshit common wisdom that regulation never has any effect on anything.

Comment #33: Zifnab25  on  07/20  at  04:44 PM

that should read “un-impowerfulized.” I am pretty much as wordily brilliant as shakespeare and sarah palin combined, apparently.

Comment #34: alysia  on  07/20  at  04:46 PM

The argument that moderation is inconsistent with freedom of speech is ludicrous. The first amendment protects editorial privileges as well as individual comment.

Comment #35: CBrachyrhynchos  on  07/20  at  04:47 PM

I wouldn’t make too much of the fact that many porn actresses were abused as children.  Many women were, period.  Most rape victims are young teenagers, I do believe.

Comment #36: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  04:51 PM

Xeranar at 23: Actually its not that easy of a question. Your answer is only true in the United States and even then its only partially true. When democratic or semi-democratic countries have ratings boards or censorships boards, you gets to be on them gets to be a very contentious issue since they tend to be dominated by older, more pruddish people. I doubt that any feminist would want the board monitoring what is and what is not porn to include any Evangelical Chrstians because they would use to broad a definition and censor a lot of books or movies that feminists might like just like Anthony Comstock did during the 19th century. At the same time a free speech absolutist might also be unwelcome on the board because that person would render it inefficient.

  AnglScarlett at 8: More than a few Holocaust survivors and more than a few Jews are free speech absolutists because of the Holocaust not despite it. The argument, as the poet Henrich Heine put it during the early 19th century, is that when people burn books, humans are bound to follow. Censorship, regardless of what is being censored or who is doing the censoring, never ends well. It juist doesn’t work.

Comment #37: Lee  on  07/20  at  04:52 PM

Regarding banning trolls
Back in my FG days, I had ZERO problem banning trolls, as I paid for that site 100% completely out of my own pocket. And even if I had ad revenue coming in like Pandagon, that ad revenue is reliant on hits that I want to keep coming. If trolls drive away your regulars, then you don’t get the ad revenue you used to. As this is ultimately a private instance in either case, and not a government interest, “freedom of speech” does not apply like it does in the public forum. And I’m sorry, but shutting down someone calling you a shitcock in a private forum is hardly as egregious a violation of the first amendment at the “free speech zones” in some cage 5 miles away from where Bush was making a public appearance.

Regarding the porn industry
The problem is a self-perpetuating problem. For every Jenna Jameson out there, you have hundreds (thousands?) of women who have entered the porn industry desperate, coerced, and in no position to demand fair treatment, and the men don’t have it a whole lot better from how I understand it. A woman facing homelessness, who put everything on the line to enter the legitimate film industry and failed, whose career options are limited, are NOT going to be in a position to tell their director “I really don’t feel comfortable telling that man to stuff his n—-er cock in me.” Among other things. The porn industry preys on the weakest of society and uses their position of power to perpetuate a system that will continue to generate women who are degraded and depreciated, because this kind of pornography is the aqua vitae of your misogynist—both run-of-the-mill and full-troll. The degradation of women that is such and important part of pornography doesn’t happen in a vacuum. Yes, the pornification of society is something bizarre and unsettling because it means that their self-perpetuating system is growing stronger, not weaker, and I think a lot of this has to do with the privatization of pornography. It used to be that in order for someone to consume porn, there would have to be a degree of public exposure: the mailman might deliver that wrapped-brown magazine and talk about it. Someone you know might see you ducking into the back room of the video store or notice your car parked outside of the strip club. So if it was that important to get a porn fix, men probably had to do a little bit of risk assessment, including what sort of porn you’d prefer to be caught with. If you can beat off to a Playboy (which you can claim you just read for the articles), why risk having your wife flip out when she catches you with a copy of Barely Legal? But men don’t have to worry about that like they had to when there are sites offering up evermore extreme pornography in the privacy of their own home.  And this is precisely why censorship won’t work: because the main venue of pornography is now a private one, and censoring the internet is a full-time job. The good news is that it’s also democratized porn—the prohibition against men getting too kinky with their porn fetishes that having to consume porn the old way pretty much banned women from enjoying it.

What needs to happen is a groundswell of feminist support for non-offensive porn, and some sort of ratings system or labeling process to identify pornography that doesn’t have racist or sexist crap in it. But those titles need to be made first, and the industry isn’t really falling all over itself to make those titles. So we need to have a new industry in place. It’s such an entrenched problem.

Comment #38: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/20  at  04:52 PM

Zif, you keep insisting that porn is about arousal and only about arousal, and that might where you get stuck.  A lot of men who watch a lot of porn aren’t just masturbating to it.  Many men just watch it all the time, pass amongst friends, share it online.  They would probably say they just like looking at sex, but like I said, it has the same function as passing racist jokes along.  It creates community along the lines of male dominance, and the delight is in sticking it to women as much as it is rubbing one out.

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  04:55 PM

Zif, I don’t think drugs and speech really fall under the same category.  What you’re proposing is a regulation on speech, which is expressly forbidden under the First Amendment, to begin with.  Second of all, the reason you can’t censor speech is that it’s not an act.  Like I said, censorship is a major distraction.  If anti-porn people had put half as much energy into regulating porn from the labor and health standards angle as they did in trying to censor it, half the industry would be wiped out by now and the other half would probably be a lot less hateful simply by virtue of having limits on what they can do to their workers.

Comment #40: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  04:59 PM

Might Ponygirl: Is non-misongynist porn even possible? Theoretically yes but more than a few people think that porn is misongynist by its very nature and I haven’t really heard a working definition of non-misongynist porn yet. How do you define non-misongynist porn? Is it simply porn where the female isn’t degraded or humiliated in anyway or does it need to be something more than that? The only defintion of non-misongynist porn seems to be, we know it when we see it. Which isn’t much of a working one.

Comment #41: Lee  on  07/20  at  05:04 PM

I’ll agree with the point of pornography serving multiple purposes other than pure wank fodder - those videos do go around, notably on athletic-team listservs.  I’m not sure that anyone pays in that sense enough to create a market, but I’m sure that you can at least have a few people making a business out of it. 

All the arguments about the desperation of an average porn actress just come back to the fundamental economic point that in a society that actively hates the impoverished and the desperate, awful results will come out of the market.  More education, more jobs, and more social safety nets will keep more women from having to choose between pornography and homelessness - and further, those things will keep people out of abusive situations in general.  Whether or not sexual abuse creates sex workers or not, fighting poverty fights sexual abuse and is a good thing in its own right.

Comment #42: Loch Ness Monster  on  07/20  at  05:06 PM

Lee—that’s a pretty loaded question, because what is porn except the filming of the sexual act? So unless you’re going to argue the old strawfeminist argument that it is impossible for the sexual act to be egalitarian, it is of course possible to create non-misogynist porn.

The problem comes in reaching an understanding about what the baseline for “misogynist” is. Which is funny, because I don’t know that we would have the same problem identifying what “racist” content is.

Comment #43: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/20  at  05:12 PM

Firstly, I think you’re wrong on this count.  Censorship does a great job of crushing a message.  Take climate change and evolution debates.  One of the right wing tactics is to suppress and segregate pro-climate/evo information from their base.  Once the base has been inundated with right wing viewpoints and blocked from hearing left wing viewpoints, they tend to agree with right wing views much more readily.  CC and Evo aren’t eliminated, but the denialist view definitely dominates.

Two different animals here.  I agree that censorship does a great job of crushing a message, if the message is new, complex, or contrary to the widely accepted norm.  However, it does a terrible job in crushing a worldview by attacking its individual pieces. 

It’s easy to achieve de facto censorship of a new, complex idea in a population that’s already been carefully cultivated and conditioned to accept such censorship, especially when the topic of discussion (empirical thought) is so opposed to the irrational worldview of that population.  You’re not asking them to change, think, or do anything that might challenge their worldview; in fact, censorship is really just asking them to reaffirm their way of life.

Comment #44: Signals and Systems  on  07/20  at  05:12 PM

Loch Ness Monster: Not really sure about more education and social safety nets keeping women out of porn. Most European countries have much better safety nets and education systems than America but they still have a thriving domestic porn/sex worker industry even though poverty is rarer in Europe than America and more bareable when it exists. Also for all the women drawn into porn/sex work by poverty, there are also more women who just endure the poverty. Poverty is a factor and a very important one but it isn’t the only factor in why people go into sex work.

Comment #45: Lee  on  07/20  at  05:14 PM

Ponygirl, it wasn’t my intent to ask a loaded question. I’m generally curious about how would non-misongynist porn be defined.

Comment #46: Lee  on  07/20  at  05:17 PM

Lee:

I agree that poverty isn’t the only cause, but it’s the biggest factor that undermines the doctrine of consenting adults:  consent compromised by the urgent need for money, which in turn leads not only to pornography in general but to particularly heinous, degrading options.

I have no idea on the relative quality of life is between European and American sex workers, so I can’t really defend that point in particular, but my hunch is that degrading porn tends to be more American than European.

Comment #47: Loch Ness Monster  on  07/20  at  05:22 PM

Lee’s question at #41 reminds me of the BDSM question—can one consenting adult tie up and inflict pain on another consenting adult as part of a sex act without it being deeply misogynistic and fucked-up? I’ve heard lots of reasons why it isn’t, which I find compelling.

I’m sorry that this is getting sidetracked by economic motivations. Ditto the psychological ones that I was trying to dismiss, but I think failed at… the whole point is that you have a whole lot of different power dynamics in play that allow a fucked-up situation to persist. I don’t think the question actually is “I do porn so I can eat,” so much as its, “I have to have sex with this producer and then do this fucked up scene to make $5k for a day’s work.”

It is complicated. There is a lot going on here. And, even stepping past the question of getting cops involved, how do you propose we legislate effectively to make this industry less misogynistic and offensive?

Comment #48: humanadverb  on  07/20  at  05:29 PM

I’m generally curious about how would non-misongynist porn be defined.

It’s really not hard to imagine. You take pornography, and you toss out all of the woman-hating shit.

Comment #49: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/20  at  05:30 PM

You’re forgetting another important reason: The things you censor may contain elements of the truth.

Consider something the vast majority abhorr - child porn.

Now consider two possible uncomfortable lines of questioning:

i, How many people find children sexually attractive (even if they won’t admit it) and why?
ii, Do children have sexual feelings and can they engage in sex without being harmed?

Because the West has made kiddie fiddling one of our biggest bugbears, even asking these questions seems icky in the extreme and actually examining them might be hit by restrictions on child porn.

Comment #50: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/20  at  05:48 PM

If anti-porn people had put half as much energy into regulating porn from the labor and health standards angle as they did in trying to censor it, half the industry would be wiped out by now and the other half would probably be a lot less hateful simply by virtue of having limits on what they can do to their workers.

I can’t argue with that at all.

Comment #51: Zifnab25  on  07/20  at  05:55 PM

Phoenician, I think settled law on kiddie porn is actually pretty clear… it isn’t illegal as a matter of obscenity, it is illegal because it is a product of a crime: child abuse. It is illegal for the same reason rhino horn and elephant ivory is illegal—the product itself isn’t the problem, but we ban it in order to prevent the original crime. At least, I understand this to be the ACLU’s position.

And that’s a *very* useful way to address a lot of this stuff. The Tracy Lords back catalog is no worse than milk enemas in terms of obscenity, but as a matter of statutory rape, it is in a very, very different classification (as it should be). Other crimes—including coerced sex—should be handled in that frame too.

The upshot of the ACLU’s stance is that it doesn’t have “a chilling effect” on the conversation, while reducing actual crimes.

Comment #52: humanadverb  on  07/20  at  06:01 PM

there’s a widespread, popular desire to watch women be put through increasingly degrading acts

That may be, but I think I am with Zif on this, that it still only represents a minority of men.  I certainly have never heard anyone I know talking about this stuff and any of them would be repulsed by it (and yeah, guys will talk about this stuff to each other).

Comment #53: DrDick  on  07/20  at  06:01 PM

One thing I’ve learned about men who think all heterosexuality must be somehow degrading to women, and therefore argue that porn has to be, is that they are men of limited imaginations and an overall inability to believe women really like sex.

Comment #54: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  06:02 PM

If anti-porn people had put half as much energy into regulating porn from the labor and health standards angle as they did in trying to censor it, half the industry would be wiped out by now and the other half would probably be a lot less hateful simply by virtue of having limits on what they can do to their workers.

Yeah. I’m not being a wise ass here when I ask, where the fuck is OSHA on porn sets? If my corporation is going to tie you up, or gets you high or drunk to perform, etc. don’t we already have a regulating body for this type of suff?

Comment #55: Danzig  on  07/20  at  06:03 PM

It’s super fascinating to me that the discussion always turns to “why do women go into porn, especially overtly misogynist porn?” instead of fascinating and under-discussed discussions like, “Why do so many men find it incredibly important to have a steady stream of overtly misogynist porn?” or “What breaks in men that they think it’s acceptable to create and sell misogynist porn?”  Fascinating.

Comment #56: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  06:05 PM

There is some regulation of porn, but it often seems to me to fall into the same traps that regulation of legal prostitution does—-it treats female sex workers like commodities whose cleanliness and safety needs to be verified prior to use instead of treating them like human beings entitled to safe working conditions.  Thus you hear a lot about the STD testing, but not so much about worker protections.  It’s very dehumanizing.

Comment #57: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  06:08 PM

I think it is just our reflexively Liberal political culture. Like Riley from Boondock’s take on R Kelly. “She saw pee coming at her, she stayed. I see pee coming at me, I get out of the way.”

But I don’t see the question as “What breaks in MEN?” It is “why is abusive sex so normalized, and why is that okay?” Which I think you demonstrated pretty clearly in your earlier post, leaping past the misogyny to the racism. Ditto with the Mel Gibson situation.

Ditto with, “I think a pretty small number of men are aroused by milk enemas.” So not the point.

Comment #58: humanadverb  on  07/20  at  06:33 PM

It’s super fascinating to me that the discussion always turns to “why do women go into porn, especially overtly misogynist porn?” instead of fascinating and under-discussed discussions like, “Why do so many men find it incredibly important to have a steady stream of overtly misogynist porn?” or “What breaks in men that they think it’s acceptable to create and sell misogynist porn?” Fascinating.

“Pay no attention to the patriarch wanking behind the curtain! But feel free to choose sides between the educated feminist Bi…I mean Witch ... of the East and the poor benighted Witch of the West who was abused as a child.”

Comment #59: Gracchus.  on  07/20  at  06:35 PM

Phoenician, I think settled law on kiddie porn is actually pretty clear… it isn’t illegal as a matter of obscenity, it is illegal because it is a product of a crime: child abuse.”

Not quite that simple, I’m afraid.

I’m also reminded of the threat here to prosecute the showers of teh Mapplethorpe exhibit based on his “Rosie” (look it up if you like; NSFW)

Comment #60: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/20  at  06:48 PM

Well, I think “sex abuse is normalized and encouraged as a demonstration of masculinity” is a good answer for what breaks in men.  It’s a start, but there are more questions.  Certainly we can start talking about why this isn’t inevitable, and why it can’t all be on women to police things.

Comment #61: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  06:48 PM

I should have led with the ACLU position, and dropped my “settled law” point, which I was less sure of. Clearly, it isn’t. I certainly prefer the ACLU position to what is in settled law.

Thanks for the correction, Phoenician.

Comment #62: humanadverb  on  07/20  at  06:57 PM

But I don’t see the question as “What breaks in MEN?” It is “why is abusive sex so normalized, and why is that okay?”

Staglianio is appealing to broken men, who have screwed-up attitudes toward women with a heaping side of hate for minorities. He’s exploiting a market of men who are perfectly comfortable with mainstream porn featuring blowjobs that resemble something out of a horror movie, complete with choking, gagging, teary-eyed women and men whose hateful words would make Jack the Ripper blanch.

Put more succinctly, he’s exploiting a market of men who are either woman-hating sadists or who have never had a proper BJ from a real live woman in their pathetic lives.

Comment #63: Gracchus.  on  07/20  at  06:57 PM

It’s super fascinating to me that the discussion always turns to “why do women go into porn, especially overtly misogynist porn?” instead of fascinating and under-discussed discussions like, “Why do so many men find it incredibly important to have a steady stream of overtly misogynist porn?” or “What breaks in men that they think it’s acceptable to create and sell misogynist porn?” Fascinating.

Because these aren’t entirely difficult questions to answer, but they do strike me as very difficult problems to solve.  Misogynist men enjoy misogynist porn for the same reason gay men like gay porn.  That’s what they are.  And I think it’s less that something is “broken” these men so much as something was never “built”.  Namely, ethics and humility.  They’re selling what makes them money and to hell with the consequences.  In another life, I’m sure they’d all be arms smugglers or crack dealers.  Now you know.  Hurray!  Whatchagonna do about it?

On the flip side, a lot of people assume that no one could have such a shitty life that she’d take a few hundred bucks to suffer torturous physical and mental sex abuse for hours on end.  The answer is more difficult to grasp for someone working a white collar 9-5, or hell, even retail.  But once you realize what the problem is - poverty - the solution is glaringly obvious.  Jobs programs, unemployment assistance, affordable housing and education, and all the other progressive reforms every civic minded individual has been embracing for the last three centuries.  Women who aren’t scraping to get by will be more likely to avoid this kind of work.

Comment #64: Zifnab25  on  07/20  at  06:59 PM

Zif and Dr. Dick: I’m think I’m going to have to side with Amanda on this. I can think of a half-dozen shock porn clips that have ascended to meme levels on the internet, and there’s a pretty vast gulf between what’s shocking in photographs of a guy, and what’s shocking in photographs of a woman.

Comment #65: Left_Wing_Fox  on  07/20  at  07:04 PM

Amanda: My generally feeling is that the men who create misogynist porn because they know that they can get away with it and make money doing it. The men who watch misogynist porn do so because they know that they can get away with it. Thats actually why I think that most evil happens in the world, a belief that you can get away with it and/or that you can make a lot of money doing it.

The key to ending misogynist porn is to make sure that people can’t get away with it. This doesn’t necessarily involve censoring it but applying social pressure against people who make or watch misogynist porn. There has to be some sort of fairly obvious consequence of creating misogynist porn. It isn’t an easy thing because there always seems to be somebody ready to step in and provide the necessary support. Non-porn example, Glenn Beck looked liked he was going to loose all his sponsors after he said that President Obama was racist against white people but the gold people stepped in because they knew his audience where a bunch of suckers that they can make money off of. The key might be to make the creation of misogynist porn really unprofitable.

  Why haven’t porn actors of both genders unionized? The Screen Actor’s Guild is pretty powerful and effective as a union. There is no reason why an Porn Actor’s Guild won’t be equally powerful. Unionization might be a useful way of dealing with the problems of the porn industry.

Comment #66: Lee  on  07/20  at  07:06 PM

I’m really not comfortable with tele-analyzing men to figure out what is “broken” about them. It is a very precarious position to start an examination from, and it is an Othering activity around attitudes and behaviors that, to some extent, a lot of us exhibit.

I’m content to write Mel Gibson off as a weird, creepy dude and not push questions about his psychology much further. On the other hand, it is a good opportunity to talk about the behavior, the situation, the power dynamics, etc.

Comment #67: humanadverb  on  07/20  at  07:07 PM

I’m not sure, Zif.  I reject the argument that men start off as woman-haters and have to learn kindness.  Much psychological research shows that human beings, both male and female, start learning empathy as a matter of course.  It takes work to make a person lose that empathy, and indeed our culture works very hard on men to make them feel that empathy towards women is emasculating.

Comment #68: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  07:07 PM

Zif nailed it with the “consenting adults” thing.  There’s a huge difference between censorship and protecting people.  I’ll give child pornography and the old Insex site as an example.  Kids can’t consent.  That’s established, but you take a site like Insex and you have someone who is ostensibly a “consenting adult.”  Some of the stories that came out of that operation really bring the “consent” into question.  People rallied behind it screaming “free speech” and the like, but in many cases, lines were crossed and it went into really abusive territory.  I don’t want to use words like rape or mind control, as some detractors did, but seriously.  Some level of censorship in regards to materials where a “performer” is being abused is not a danger to free speech.

Comment #69: Spooky Skeptic  on  07/20  at  07:14 PM

Zifnab

That’s complete bullshit.  That’s exactly the same “Not my Nigel!” argument that people use to defend seemingly nice rapists.

It’s not just monsters that do monsterous things.  And it’s insulting to the people that are hurt by such monstrous acts to suggest otherwise.

Comment #70: jennygadget  on  07/20  at  07:19 PM

I think the “why” is a very, very important question. Often, we are tempted to write off people as simply “evil.” It’s easy. It’s also lazy an unsophisticated. Disregarding people as hopeless doesn’t strike me as terribly progressive.

The idea of it being a “demonstration of masculinity” seems an accurate one. Having been deep into football culture in high school, there was a certain one-upsmanship in finding the most gonzo porn. At its root, it had a lot to do with being a part of a group, by any means necessary. (I hate to yet again portray football players as the ultimate in misogynists. I very much doubt our group was much different than any other mostly male group.)

Comment #71: John Joel Glanton  on  07/20  at  07:24 PM

Zif, I reject the argument that misogynist men are misogynist men and simply beyond redemption. I also feel that its wrong to compare misogyny to homosexuality. People are born homosexual but nobody is born a misogynist, anymore than a person is born a racist. Its something that has taught and cultivated. Its not a trait someone is born with like being born with brown eyes.

  Amanda, the key word there is emasculating. American culture, and other cultures as well, encourages men to have a certain level of crassness and a lack of sophistication. Not being crass is seen as being effeminate and girly. Gentleness is not seen as a virtue in men even though Jesus is very popular (this never made much sense to me). A lot of misogyny is very crude and crass, therefore misogynist porn is manly porn or something like that. I have no evidence to support this theory but cultures that encourage men to have a higher level of sophistication and eschew crude behavior might be less prone to misogynist porn. Call this misogyny as a manifestation of anti-intellectualism.

Comment #72: Lee  on  07/20  at  07:27 PM

I’ve never quite been able to make up my mind about simulated child porn. The argument against real child porn is pretty straightforward—a child (especially a prepubescent) can’t consent to sex, so it’s blatantly child abuse. That’s a pretty easy call. But simulated, where the only person involved is the creator and there is no actual victim in the production? The only thing I can think of is an argument from adverse consequences (as in those who are likely to be child predators are likely to be encouraged by even simulated child porn)—do we consider it free (albeit repulsive) speech or do we invoke the precautionary principle on the “fire in a crowded theatre” precedent?

Comment #73: BrianX  on  07/20  at  07:27 PM

Left_Wing_Fox -

I will agree that society has been dramatically desensitized to the sexual degradation of women and that it has become somehow more acceptable in some sense, but I do not think that necessarily translates into a broader and more widespread demand for such images.

Comment #74: DrDick  on  07/20  at  07:36 PM

Of course, you have those trolls who want it to be clear that they don’t respect the word “no” when it comes from a woman.

Comment #75: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/20  at  07:54 PM

Let me jut say I’ve really enjoyed reading the last two threads. Great discussion.

degrading porn tends to be more American than European.

LOL, no! Not at all. Not even close.

Comment #76: Ben D.  on  07/20  at  08:01 PM

Misogynist men enjoy misogynist porn for the same reason gay men like gay porn.

Hmm.  But isn’t it possible that non-misogynist men enjoy (or “enjoy”) misogynist porn as well?  Is it possible that you’re applying an argument by definition here (“The enjoyment of misogynist porn is in itself misogynist, and therefore men who enjoy it are by definition misogynists”)?

I state this because I believe people are not fully responsible for what turns them on.  A female who chooses to be a feminist in her politics but gets turned on by being submissive is still a feminist.

It may be worthwhile drawing a distinction between enjoying something and the actual consumption of it.

Comment #77: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/20  at  08:12 PM

Piator@77 is on to something—there are men like my partner, who might get turned on by scenarios similar to much of the degradation in misogynist porn, but with consenting partners who experience that degradation as arousing. And who, like my partner, refuse to consume misogynist porn despite the similarity because they can’t be sure the women involved with it aren’t being harmed.

Comment #78: kristin  on  07/20  at  08:23 PM

Suppressing scientific information is easier than quelling widespread opinions and desires zifnab. For instance, there will always be conservatives and liberals (or similar) and there will always be a desire for sex and sexual imagery. There will not always be science. Science relies on a body of educated, dedicated, regulated individuals and public/commercial support. If the support system finds the resulting information dangerous to its existence, it will simply shut off the valve.

If climate change were as simple a view to have as just having a gut feeling about it (like you can feel that it’s right to help people out of poverty, or think that an accumulation of wealth in a specific class is justified because those people earned it) then it wouldn’t require scientific information, which takes years, sometimes decades, of careful observation and testing before its released to the public.

Again, bad example.

Comment #79: Cola82  on  07/20  at  08:25 PM

Furthermore social pressure to self censor is NOT the same as systematic censorship by a governing body with guns and chemical weapons.

Social pressure is the result of widespread spontaneous consensus, even if that means some people are left on the margins. The pressure they subsequently feel to self censor is something that can be resisted without jail time. The same can’t be said for government censorship.

If you lose your job for saying something unpopular, that’s still not systematic censorship. That’s the employers with whom you are freely associated exercising their right to discretion in hiring practices. If someone they’ve hired suddenly becomes bad for business, based on sentiments that the individual didn’t have to express, they can’t be forced to keep that person on.

Comment #80: Cola82  on  07/20  at  08:30 PM

It’s not <b>just</a> a question of what’s broken in men; I think there’s also a whole lot about power relations in the patriarchy here. If you’re a guy who seriously watches porn and communicates with other guys who watch porn, in addition to the personal escalation, there’s also probably going to be a social competition going on. And if someone isn’t man enough to enjoy a particularly extreme clip, they lose.

It’s a variant on the dynamic that makes it so difficult to call a bigot on their bigotry at work or at family gatherings.

Comment #81: paul  on  07/20  at  09:07 PM

Well said! I read the earlier post and was just coming here to bring up how the Catharine MacKinnon’s work to define pornography as a violation of human rights, but someone already covered that in the other thread. I used to be a huge proponent of censoring violent porn, until I took an advanced feminist theory course in grad school and actually read in-depth about this and the resulting “sex wars” and got to talk it out with women who were active in anti-trafficking and sex work advocacy.

Now, I look at that attempt at censorship, and I see that was the moment where feminism lost the struggle against misogynistic porn. MacKinnon put forth some views on what sex and pornography meant for women within the confines of capitalist patriarchy.  She had some good points. But then she made a calculated decision to get involved with right-wingers and, not surprisingly, found quickly that the enemy of our enemy is not our friend. Pretty much immediately, the laws began to be disproportionately enforced against the GLBTQ community. As a result:

1) Feminist community splintered in “sex wars”. GLBTQ feminists, who already were made feel like outsiders before, felt (with good reason) that they were betrayed and abandoned by the mainstream.

2) The alliance with the right-wing authoritarian censors allowed the porn industry to paint themselves as the victims and standard-bearers for free speech and the feminists as authoritarian prudes in alliance with the religious right in opposition to pleasure. In essence, the pornographers were able to create an image of themselves as misunderstood artists because the same laws were supposedly also used to censor great works of literature and fairly mainstream pop cultural products.

3) That was probably the moment when feminism got away from activism and got mired in purely theoretical arguments. Nasty arguments. As AnglScarlett pointed out on the other thread, even now all hell breaks loose when a woman mentions that she’s anti-porn, because the battle lines continue to be drawn as “pro sex” or “anti sex.”

I think that censoring something can never be truly effective. The strategy of “I don’t like it and I want it to go away” is a losing strategy. That has been the dominant discourse around porn in feminism for a few decades. What did it get us? I think what Amanda is saying is that regulating the industry around issues of consent and labor rights would be more effective and would have the secondary benefit of removing at least some of the misogyny from the end product. I tend to agree.

Comment #82: elena  on  07/20  at  09:13 PM

Up here in Canada, we do have laws prohibiting actual hate speech. They work pretty well at keeping some types of hate groups marginal, but for someone to be charged they have to actually be promoting violence against an identifiable group, not just hate. It means that there’s a great deal of stuff that isn’t covered b the law, and that’s probably the way it should be, but actually being a holocaust denier can get you into legal trouble (it can’t in the US, as I understand it).

On the other hand, our (brief) experiment in regulating porn was used almost immediately by authorities to ban Gay and Lesbian magazines, which shows how any laws restricting speech need to draw a pretty clear line and that it’s better to err on the side of freedom.

Comment #83: HonestB  on  07/20  at  09:15 PM

I can’t help but think that maximally-free speech is a luxury not everyone can afford.  I can see the state controlling hate speech in, like, 20th century Germany.  Or, like, Israel for that matter.  But I’m probably falling for the “It would never happen HERE” thing at least a little bit.

Comment #84: saraeanderson  on  07/20  at  09:26 PM

(it can’t in the US, as I understand it).

You’re right, the First Amendment is interpreted very broadly. Any laws about hate speech, or censoring porn, would get struck down really fast by both left and right-leaning judges. It’s one thing most of the American public still has a consensus on.

That’s why this debate is purely academic. Short of a Constitutional Amendment (ha! good luck with that!) porn isn’t going to get banned in the USA, and neither will “hate speech”, or gay magazines.

I’m of that school of thought. The entire purpose of the First Amendment is to protect unpopular and sometimes disgusting views. Popular speech doesn’t NEED protection! Nobody is going to scream for censorship if you hang up a sign in your window that says “hug a puppy”.

Comment #85: Ben D.  on  07/20  at  10:28 PM

I’ve been reading this thread and the last one, and one thing that has struck me as being pretty crazy is the presumption that all women who choose to go into something like pornography or things like prostitution must be victims of something. I don’t doubt that there are plenty of women who go into that line of work out of desperation, but there are also plenty of women who genuinely enjoy that type of work and might, *gasp*, enjoy sex themselves and have no problem making a profit off of doing something they enjoy.

I think in this way, some feminists (I say some, because I certainly don’t think all feminists fall into this category, and proudly consider myself a feminist) actually do more damage to the cause of advancing the rights of women by assuming that all (or close to it) women who work in that type of profession must be victims of something inherent in the profession rather than being victims of poor regulation and societal shaming techniques (which is probably why sex workers have such problems).

Comment #86: Elliot  on  07/20  at  10:39 PM

Oh, and speaking of European “hate speech” laws and selective enforcement, notice how that right-wing Danish newspaper could draw anti-Muslim caricatures, and have the cartoons displayed all over the European press and media, but if it had drawn anti-semitic caricatures you can bet it would have been banned.

You just can’t trust a government, even a democratic one, to decide what is “hate speech” and what isn’t. A broad interpretation of “free speech” is one of the better features of the United States, and I would say of the Anglosphere in general but that’s kind of changed in recent years with the UK and Canada. Maybe PiTAR can clue me in on speech laws or lack thereof in NZ.

Comment #87: Ben D.  on  07/20  at  10:43 PM

Elliot, @ 86,  I’m pretty sure no one here said any such thing. There were a lot of people who said the industry is unregulated, which results in sex workers being manipulated or forced into doing things outside of their contracts (such as barebacking). Some people said that many sex workers’ choices are limited by things like poverty or trafficking. But no one said that all sex workers are powerless victims of “something.” Amanda even specifically said that some of the current practices, such as STI testing, might appear to be helpful but are actually dehumanizing to the workers. So, really, this whole straw woman line about feminists who think all sex workers are victims is getting pretty tiresome.

Comment #88: elena  on  07/20  at  10:56 PM

Thanks, Elena for detailing Catherine MacKinnon’s place in the history of this discussion. It’s a very illuminating episode.

On the topic of misogynist men. I think we all live in a misogynist society and each of us carries the effects. Some men are more misogynist, some less. Some men are working on it, some aren’t aware of how artificial their attitudes and desires are. That’s why discussions like this are so necessary, so people, especially people who need to make changes, can sort their shit out and deal with it.

A feminist porn collective might help, if such a thing could be. A strong union would be good.

Comment #89: Patrick  on  07/20  at  10:57 PM

Well, there’s a lot of interesting history here.  I was not aware of all of this Canadian history and MacKinnon and how the government or the authorities there used the law to go after gay and lesbian books and films.  I’m pretty amazed by that.  I’ve had people, even here, bring up gays as an argument against a few things I’ve posted.  The last thing my mind goes to when I think about depraved acts is gay people.  So I guess that’s a lesson learned.

Comment #90: JennyLI  on  07/20  at  11:01 PM

Elena at 82: If not over this than the Feminist movement was bound to split over something else just like practically every other movement in politics. Its just human nature. Some proponents of anything would always insist on purity or focus on abstract theory than actual results and hate anybody who disagrees with them. You will always have people who think that you should move further and further and others basically thinking enough has been achieved. Its like this with every movement.

Comment #91: Lee  on  07/20  at  11:03 PM

I have to say that men who say things like Eliot said above, just make me very suspicious.  You know what i picture?  I picture some of the shit I read when I googled the particular practice that started this discussion.  I didn’t have to go to any of the sites, just reading the blurbs under the individual google results, every other word was “the bitch” the whore”.

Yeah, the bitches love it don’t they Eliot? 

I know that there are some high profile porn actresses like Jenna Jameson I think her name is, who claim to love doing porn.  And you know, I’m willing to concede that she may.  I also think it’s important to remember that she’s become a celebrity and that celbrity is dependent on her being perceived as someone who “loves it’.  But, maybe she does, okay.

I don’t believe she’s representative and I don’t believe for one second any of the guys saying that most of them “love it” really have any evidence of this.  I’m sorry, but how many women “love” five guys coming on her face?  You know, I think you have to be a man to believe that.  And I can’t help hearing an echo of “that fucking whore, you should have seen her, the bitch was loving it” in their words.

Comment #92: JennyLI  on  07/20  at  11:09 PM

@elena

I’m not criticizing Amanda in this, and actually, I think she’s made some very smart points on the matter (especially with regards to the dehumanizing practices many of these industries use). I’m more criticizing the ones who are arguing for banning and criminalizing the entire industry (re-reading what I wrote, I think my choice of words was pretty poor and a lot more broad-brushed than I meant it to be).

That said, I stand by my basic point, criminalization and suppression of pornography and prostitution is ultimately bad because it simply drives the practice underground and away from the protection of the law (and that makes it a lot harder for women who do get victimized in those fields to get help).

All of this is to say that I agree with the point Amanda made in her blog posts, and I think it’s the type of thought that will allow feminists to have a much stronger hand later on.

Comment #93: Elliot  on  07/20  at  11:13 PM

@AnglScarlett

1. I’d appreciate it if you’d spell my name right.

2. I never said that most women enjoy demeaning pornography, and I hardily concede that the porn industry is dominated by that crap, but the solution to it is *not* use of the law to *ban*, it’s the use of the law to create stronger regulations and make it easier for them to unionize (like most industries, this is also about workers’ rights not just about rights for women).

3. Thanks for attributing language to me that I never used and find demeaning as well, I really appreciate that, maybe I could accuse you of calling me a woman-beating asshole who only lives to see women suffer? Would that make you feel better?

4. Do you really want to tell me that all the women who do work that type of work are doing it out of sheer desperation? They aren’t, and if feminism is about greater choice for women, then you have to accept that prostitution and pornography and strip clubs should be legitimate choices for women to make if they choose them, and we, as feminists, should work towards improving those working conditions rather than forcing them underground, which is what will happen (since it already happens with prostitution).

Comment #94: Elliot  on  07/20  at  11:23 PM

You’re right on about censorship, Amanda.  It would suck. 

Re: non-misogynistic porn, there is tons of non-misogynistic porn on porn-hub.  There also a fair amount of “degrading” type of stuff, but in order to get to the real violent crap, you have to go to specialized pages, and pay.  Type “non-consent” into pornhub’s search engine.  Won’t find.  Posters are not allowed to name their videos “non-consent”.  Even pretend “non-consent”.  Viewers of porn are not allowed to get off on non-consent.  At least not viewers of mainstream porn.  Even the most degrading or painful looking acts must be believed to be consented to. 

I have to say, I don’t get it.  If it looks and sounds like the women are having a good time, why should we assume the viewer is getting off on women suffering degradation?  If misogynist dudes think all sex is demeaning to women, then any porn would be degrading, enema or not.  So I think it is more logical to think that for those of us who enjoy the acts performed, porn is about sex.  For those who think the acts are degrading, porn is about degradation.  So, the same clip that to some is pure misogyny, to others can be pure sexual fantasy.

Comment #95: raspberryjamba  on  07/20  at  11:35 PM

@AngiScarlett:
Just because you don’t love it, doesn’t mean other women don’t love it and even seek it out.

Comment #96: raspberryjamba  on  07/20  at  11:48 PM

Thanks for clarifying, Elliot. I think it’s important, however, to come to each discussion prepared to address what’s in this specific discussion and not what you (general “you”) might have seen happening in other instances. I’ve read those two threads and I’ve seen people saying either “censorship doesn’t work”  or “I understand that censorship is bad, but I’m very conflicted in this instance, let me talk through my doubts.”

It’s important to be careful about making generalizations about feminists’ relationship to pornography, because in every discussion someone will pop up with some variation on “feminists hate sex workers/feminists think sex workers are powerless victims/feminists hate sex.” In reality, I don’t think that even feminists who straight out hate everything about porn and want it wiped off the face of the planet think in such black-and-white terms.

Comment #97: elena  on  07/20  at  11:52 PM

Humanadverb: Lee’s question at #41 reminds me of the BDSM question—can one consenting adult tie up and inflict pain on another consenting adult as part of a sex act without it being deeply misogynistic and fucked-up? I’ve heard lots of reasons why it isn’t, which I find compelling.

I think you’re missing a word or 2 in that sentence, but I’m assuming you meant that you think it’s impossible for BDSM to not be misogynistic/fucked up. I realize that “anecdote” is not the singular of “data”, but literally every girl I know who’s into that sort of thing (top or bottom), and who I’ve discussed politics with, declare themselves to be feminists. It’s interesting to me that hardcore submissives seem more willing to identify themselves as feminists than many “vanilla” women are. My theory is that being socially marginalized for ones sexuality makes it easier for them to see other forms of oppression too, but IANAP.

Lee: Why haven’t porn actors of both genders unionized? The Screen Actor’s Guild is pretty powerful and effective as a union. There is no reason why an Porn Actor’s Guild won’t be equally powerful. Unionization might be a useful way of dealing with the problems of the porn industry.

I think part of it is that the worse off porn performers have it, the better “real” actors can feel about themselves, so I doubt SAG will step in any time soon. Anyone from the “respectable” entertainment industry who tried to help would risk being tarred with the same proverbial brush.

BrianX: I’ve never quite been able to make up my mind about simulated child porn. The argument against real child porn is pretty straightforward—a child (especially a prepubescent) can’t consent to sex, so it’s blatantly child abuse. That’s a pretty easy call. But simulated, where the only person involved is the creator and there is no actual victim in the production? The only thing I can think of is an argument from adverse consequences (as in those who are likely to be child predators are likely to be encouraged by even simulated child porn)

Another argument is that by “muddying the waters” it will make it harder to prosecute real child porn cases in the future. Sure, right _now_, photo-realistic porn would cost tens of millions of dollars to make, but in a few years, it will be doable of a mid-range laptop. The obvious answer would be requiring simulated porn to be detectably unrealistic, but the same techniques could be used to process real porn to make it look just fake enough.

Comment #98: Mike Crichton  on  07/21  at  12:00 AM

Hey Angie,  why would you assume that Jenna Jameson is lying when she says she enjoys her work?  So if a dude made the same claim you are making (women can’t possibly enjoy sex, she must be fronting), we would call him a misogynist.  What should we call you?

Mind you, Jenna Jameson is one of the best at her craft.  Think back a century, where been onstage dancing or acting or singing had to be demeaning to all women, and now it has been normalized and women’s performance talents can be celebrated for what they are.  I hope one day we can have the same openness about sex work, and good female (and male, hopefully) hookers can be celebrated publicly for their talents, not shamed or told that the are victims.

I am friends with a couple girls who do porn, and they don’t really make that much more than they would if they got a 9-5 job.  They actively chose doing what they do, because they saw an opportunity to do something they like, they feel they are better at sex than at anything else, they like to “party”, they feel more in control than if they decided to be, say, a waitress, or other types of work available to women their age and education. 

And yes, some women do love five guys coming on her face.  Understandably, most of the women attracted to this line of work would be the very same women who love five guys coming on their face.  You don’t become a vet if you don’t like dogs.

Sorry for the long post.

Comment #99: raspberryjamba  on  07/21  at  12:06 AM

Yikes!  Sorry about all the typos on my last post.  Shouldn’t type angry, I guess.

Comment #100: raspberryjamba  on  07/21  at  12:11 AM

@elena

That’s a fair point, and you’re absolutely right, I should have been a lot better about that (for the record, I have an ASD, not to excuse my behavior, but to understand where I’m coming from a bit better).

Although, I would like to say that AnglScarlett did actually make some of those arguments a few comments back, and I do think it’s fair to point out that *some* feminists are actually making those arguments. But like I said, I consider myself a feminist and believe that equal rights for women in all aspects of society is extremely important and that won’t happen through censorship or the banning of certain practices.

Comment #101: Elliot  on  07/21  at  12:14 AM

A feminist porn collective might help, if such a thing could be.

What, “Lesbian Spank Inferno” doesn’t count?

Comment #102: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/21  at  12:29 AM

I think that people in this kind of discussion should get rid of the word “consent” and go with something like “assent” or “desire”. People consent all the time to stuff they don’t enjoy and would really love to avoid. Consenting doesn’t make something not degrading, it just means someone decided that it was better than their other options. (And even without the extreme poverty/homelessness scenarios, all you have to look at is the reports of how many people have had sex they’d really rather not, just for a chance of getting ahead in the legitimate film industry.)

Comment #103: paul  on  07/21  at  01:06 AM

There also a fair amount of “degrading” type of stuff, but in order to get to the real violent crap, you have to go to specialized pages, and pay. Type “non-consent” into pornhub’s search engine.  Won’t find.  Posters are not allowed to name their videos “non-consent”.  Even pretend “non-consent”.  Viewers of porn are not allowed to get off on non-consent.

Why would I use a wordy phrase like “non-consent”?  Who does that, when we already have a perfectly good word that’s short and snappy?  Searching for “rape” did get me results.  As did, obviously, words like “bitch”, “whore”, and “slut”.  Do I have to watch a woman get punched in the face or actually raped in order for it to be degrading?

Comment #104: Denise  on  07/21  at  01:13 AM

This heterosexual, feminist, sex-enjoying woman hates mainstream commercial porn for the same reason professional anti-terrorist law enforcement people hate the show “24”.  The show’s imperative is to look pretty and follow the demands of narrative structure.  Try to get actionable intelligence by beating the crap out of people in real life, and your results will be quite suboptimal. 

In the same way, mainstream porn is mostly crafted for the purpose of allowing a man to masturbate to orgasm as quickly as possible.  When the idea of sex, in the popular imagination, has been so strongly shaped by the pervasive porn image of “sex”, women (and men) lose. 

Comments like Raspberryjamba’s at #101 demonstrate the extent to which pornification has seized hold of the national libido:

“Hey Angie, why would you assume that Jenna Jameson is lying when she says she enjoys her work?  So if a dude made the same claim you are making (women can’t possibly enjoy sex, she must be fronting), we would call him a misogynist.”

How can you conflate the question of Jenna Jameson enjoying “performing sex” and being a sex worker with whether women can like sex?  It’s not the penis in the vagina that is the feminist point.  At all.

And this comment is totally headesk:

“The obvious answer would be requiring simulated porn to be detectably unrealistic, but the same techniques could be used to process real porn to make it look just fake enough.”
-Mike Crichton

“Real” porn?  “Real” porn is to porn as the show “Cops” is to the show “24”. 

It is mainstream commercial porn, in it’s current incarnation, that is anti-sex.  Not feminists.

Comment #105: Mathrynn  on  07/21  at  01:18 AM

Mathrynn : I should have been clearer, by “real” I meant “non computer generated graphics”.

Comment #106: Mike Crichton  on  07/21  at  01:26 AM

@denise:  I just went and typed in “rape”.  Still nothing.  At least nothing relevant to what I would be looking for if I typed in the word “rape”.  I don’t think we should say that degradation is becoming mainstream when obviously even porn sites have limits to what you can desire.  “hardcore”, “anal”=lots of results.  I have to agree with the measures taken by this sites to avoid clips that would include the word “rape” in their title.

@Mathrynn:  I am not conflating performing sex with enjoying sex.  I am saying, when somebody assumes that women are lying because they don’t know better, that makes them misogynist.  It’s like somebody coming in here and saying women don’t really want abortions, or Amanda doesn’t really want to write this blog, or I don’t really want to work.  When someone has the nerve to say they know better than the prime source about their motives and situations, that’s condescending.  When this someone is a dude, talking about a woman, it is misogynistic.

Comment #107: raspberryjamba  on  07/21  at  01:38 AM

It’s like somebody coming in here and saying women don’t really want abortions

And yet we can easily say that we want every woman to live in a world where she can make a free choice to have or not have an abortion. We can acknowledge that women often make that choice because of the restrictions an oppressive culture puts on them. We can recognize that sometimes although the choice to have an abortion is the best one a woman has under the circumstances, far too many women live in circumstances that present them with a shitty range of choices.

The exact same thing goes for sex/porn work.

Comment #108: kristin  on  07/21  at  01:52 AM

I mean, sorry, but just, the nerve!!!!  You can’t just come in and say that Jenna Jameson doesn’t enjoy her work!!!  I think this is what pissed me off so much about that comment!!!  It’s like saying Hillary Clinton doesn’t enjoy her work, or Tina Fey doesn’t enjoy her work!

Seriously, can you imagine being in an industry for as long as Jenna has been, being regarded as the “Queen” of your genre, reaching such an uncharacteristically widespread audience, crossing over to mainstream, retiring at the top of your game and continuing to produce related merchandise such as books and reality TV shows without being into it? 

It’s kinda like saying LeBron isn’t really into basketball.  Or Donald Trump doesn’t like making money. 

I really apologize, I know this is not the website were people can just come and rant about what makes them tick, but I feel we let this kind of talk in here regarding Lorelei Lee and Jenna Jameson when we wouldn’t let similar things be said about other women who are good at their jobs.

Comment #109: raspberryjamba  on  07/21  at  01:52 AM

raspberryjamba: Lots of people stay in jobs they don’t really like, if they want the money badly enough. If someone is in an industry where “enthusiasm” is a selling point, there’s a strong incentive to fake it. And actors are by definition good at faking emotions.

Comment #110: Mike Crichton  on  07/21  at  02:05 AM

Raspberryjamba, have you ever watched interviews with porn stars?

Comment #111: Cola82  on  07/21  at  02:23 AM

@Mike:  Yes, lots of people stay at jobs they don’t like, but I’d like to believe not at that level.  I’d also like to believe that when someone says they like their job, we have to respect that, even if we think the job is unlikable.  Hell, I would hate having kids, but I believe other people when they say it’s the best thing they’ve ever done. 

@Cola82:  I’ve hang out with several porn actresses and one “star” (she has her own doll, so I guess she’s a star).  I’ve never watched interviews with them.  Why do you ask?

Comment #112: raspberryjamba  on  07/21  at  02:29 AM

It’s like somebody coming in here and saying women don’t really want abortions.

Women don’t. They get them because they end up in situations where that is the best option for them. Women don’t enjoy abortions.

Just like most porn actresses are probably not getting off on what they do in the way you seem to think they are. I pretty pro porn myself, but there’s a reason I draw my own pornographic comics and pinups, and it’s because I’ve had entire days ruined when I just browsed porn sites.

Comment #113: Cola82  on  07/21  at  02:35 AM

Oh, I ask because I’ve seen interviews with Jenna Jameson and other porn stars who all seem to have the same story. Background of poverty and abuse, recruited into the business from other forms of sex work, etcetera. Most of them seem like they’d really prefer not to do it.

I also read Getting Off. =/

Comment #114: Cola82  on  07/21  at  02:37 AM

@Mike: BTW, I’d like to corroborate your “anecdata” regarding subs who will openly say they are feminist.  That has been my experience too.  I wonder if this has to do with the fact that one only meets the ones who go out of their way to seek these experiences.  Maybe lots of women who have these tendencies and aren’t feminists just don’t seek fulfillment are therefore one never meets them?

Comment #115: raspberryjamba  on  07/21  at  02:38 AM

I know I’m commenting a lot, but it just occurred to me that I think the problem here is that RJ seems to think we’re implying that all porn is rape. On the contrary, porn actresses have agency that should be respected. I just think they should have a union and better protection when they’re exploited, which as I understand it, happens a lot. I certainly don’t want to imply that all of them are just grinning and bearing it 0 of the time.

I’m sure your actress friends are cool, but I’d be interested to know what kind of porn work they do exactly and with who before I assume they’re anything like the women I’m talking about.

Comment #116: Cola82  on  07/21  at  02:40 AM

Just… last comment. That zero up there should be the number one hundred with a percent sign in front of it. It was when I typed it, but something happened and now it’s a zero.

Comment #117: Cola82  on  07/21  at  02:42 AM

raspberryjamba @110, like everyone, I’m sure Jenna has moments when she absolutely hates her job. Hilary might hate flying, LeBron might hate training, Tina Fey might hate writing when she has writer’s block. Trying to paint a completely rosy picture of sex work is just as dehumanizing to sex workers as saying that it absolutely must be awful. Also, I don’t doubt Jenna when she says that she enjoys her work, but Jenna is also not a typical sex worker. She might have an option to say “no” to acts she finds unpleasant, but very few other performers have that choice. She’s probably the exception and not the rule of performers’ experience in the industry, at least in terms of power and control that she has. People in a position of power in any profession probably enjoy their work way more than people who are lower on the ladder.

Comment #118: elena  on  07/21  at  02:59 AM

But not all women with backgrounds of poverty and abuse go into sex work, and not all women who go into sex work have backgrounds of poverty and abuse.  They might not be getting off onscreen, since they are performing, but that ones I met had choices, and they chose this line of work (a pretty competitive one, believe it or not) over others like being a server or bartender or receptionist.  And I do think they get off on what they do, just like any of us gets off on what we do. 

I like to think that being a sex worker must be like being a musician, or actor or what not.  When you are not good enough at it, or are just starting out, the gigs suck, and they pay badly.  When you rule, you get to play awesome venues, and are really well paid.

Comment #119: raspberryjamba  on  07/21  at  03:02 AM

@elena:  oh wow, you said the same thing I meant, except much better.  smile

Comment #120: raspberryjamba  on  07/21  at  03:24 AM

The only thing I can think of is an argument from adverse consequences (as in those who are likely to be child predators are likely to be encouraged by even simulated child porn)—do we consider it free (albeit repulsive) speech or do we invoke the precautionary principle on the “fire in a crowded theatre” precedent?

I had kinda thought this “adverse consequences” thing was the argument, too—that somehow it had been established that simulated child porn caused/correlated really really well with actual child porn and/or abuse. In which case it seems odd to me that something similar couldn’t be established with adult porn and abuse of women. So that makes me think that’s not all there is to it.

But I don’t know if I really buy the photorealism argument, either. As a legal argument it seems useless—without an actual actor with an actual birth certificate how would you establish age without just looking and trying to ballpark? Wouldn’t it be easy enough to simulate an actor who you said was a “super young-looking!” 18-year-old, for example? (I’m thinking of non-porn anime, even, where the show swears up and down the character is 20 and the viewer is sitting there thinking OMG you look 9 years old!)

And this makes me think of how Australia (?) banned really thin/young-looking women from appearing in porn because “insufficient” boobage read as childlike.* How does the US ban child porn (or how would it ban fucked-up adult porn) without slipping too far in that direction?

*Which, imho, is a great argument against censorship—being an A-cup should not preclude you from working in porn! :p

Comment #121: Bagelsan  on  07/21  at  03:35 AM

I had kinda thought this “adverse consequences” thing was the argument, too—that somehow it had been established that simulated child porn caused/correlated really really well with actual child porn and/or abuse.

Oh, I’d like to see that.  For one thing, I imagine it would be easy to show a correlation between using simulated child porn and using real child porn based on the fact that men who consume both are pedophiles, and non-pedophiles won’t want to touch either. Likewise a correlation between using simulated kiddie porn and actual kiddie fiddling wouldn’t be surprising either.

Extending that to “simulated kiddie porn makes men seek real kiddie porn” is unsupported by this, though. You might as well hypotheses that the simulated stuff crowds out the real (illegal) stuff.

Comment #122: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/21  at  03:43 AM

Mike at 99: I wasn’t suggesting that porn actors join SAG, I was suggesting that they form their own union that is like SAG but for porn actors.

Comment #123: Lee  on  07/21  at  07:59 AM

I did NOT say that Jenna Jameson doesn’t enjoy it as she claims, I conceded that maybe she does, but I added the caveat that it’s important to remember that she has become a bonafied celebrity whose celebrity actually depends upon the perception that she enjoys it.  I understand that the subtleties of that statement are lost on someone who felt the need to rush into a porn thread to type, at length, about how a lot of women “enjoy” five men coming on their faces.

I do know that there are people who have strong desires to be sexually degraded.  And, if played out within a consensual partnership that’s no concern of mine or anyone else’s.  However, claiming that within the multi-billion dollar porn industry, much of which is non-mainstream and even fringe, filled with so many marginalized actors whose name no one will ever know,  there exists a majority, or anything close to a majority, of women who enjoy it, is delusional.  And there’s a reason you and others feel the strong need to delude yourselves.

If I were you I’d spend more time investigating what that reason may be, rather than coming on here trying to claim that I’m a misogynist because I doubt most women enjoy this work.  That doesn’t work with me.  I’ve been in political debate for far too long.  I know that racists like to call me a racist for pointing out racism, and that sexists like to call me a sexist for calling out sexism, and that rich people who want to cut off the social safety net claim I am engaging in “class warfare” if I point out the obvious fact that there is a class war being waged by the elite.

That’s old tricks and they don’t bother me.  Got anything new?

Comment #124: JennyLI  on  07/21  at  08:54 AM

AnglScarlett @125, THIS.  Jenna Jameson is just not typical of the industry. I’m never going to try to speak for all sex workers. There are a lot of performers in the porn industry that say they enjoy it, and I don’t presume to doubt them. But I’m sure that there are even more women (and men) in the industry who are completely marginalized and don’t have a choice but to participate in non-mainstream and dangerous acts that they do not enjoy. Just because there are a few actors, whose success depends on saying that they enjoy it, who say they like their work, doesn’t mean we only listen to their voices and dismiss those who might not even have a voice.

Raspberryjamba, you also said that your friends “chose this line of work…over others like being a server or bartender or receptionist.” I think all of us here would feel more comfortable with porn if we lived in a world in which a huge number of women were not limited to a few service positions (one of them being porn) to choose from. If, one day, there’s a world in which a woman would have no barriers to any of her career aspirations and could just as easily become a lawyer, a doctor, a receptionist, a research scientist, or a porn performer - and choose to be a porn performer and have the same protections of her health, safety, and rights in that job as in any other - then that would be a world in which most porn would not be as objectionable as it is today.

But, really, under the capitalist patriarchy, all of our work choices are constrained and very few of us can choose work that is absolutely fulfilling. And yet most of us would say that we enjoy our work, either because we really do for the most part, or because admitting otherwise would be soul-crushing. Why would porn be any different?

Comment #125: elena  on  07/21  at  01:15 PM

@Angi,

I did not rush in here to type about five dudes coming on anyone’s face.  YOU DID.  I merely turned your line back to you, since a gangbang is a very popular fantasy among most women I am friends with.  Porn actresses perform fantasies.  You put that out there because you thought everyone would agree with you on how disgusting and undesirable that particular act might be.  Go to right wing blogs, and I am sure the same tone is used when talking about the abominable acts gay men commit. 

You came in here to argue from a place of disgust, about how women can’t really like five guys coming on their face, or someone calling them whore.  I find that these posts often start from a place of disgust (How could anyone find milk enemas arousing!  Nobody can like five dudes coming on her face!) and then morph their arguments into caring about the safety of the industry.  Caring about the safety of the industry is fine, but the post is not about the safety of the industry, it’s about judging people based on the porn they consume.  I think this is wrong.  I somebody enjoys masturbating while watching milk enemas, why does that make then a lesser lover or debater?

Comment #126: raspberryjamba  on  07/21  at  05:13 PM

amanda, i think you’re a tad confused. the author’s of the constitution never intended free speech to be absolute, any more so than any of the other rights noted in the first 10 amendments. the USSC has opined on this (shouting fire, in a crowded theater, when there is no fire) many, many times. however, any effort to limit those freedoms must be narrowly tailored to a specific, legitimate public need.

if someone isn’t qualified for that high paying law firm partnership, they could be flipping burgers. i submit that working in the sex biz probably pays more than mcdonalds, and involves less contact with the great unwashed public. many involved probably would prefer to be doing something else. so what? many of us not in the sex biz would also prefer to be doing something else. that doesn’t mean that, by definition, we’re all being exploited, any more so than anyone else.

Comment #127: cpinva  on  07/21  at  06:00 PM

BrianX wrote:

I’ve never quite been able to make up my mind about simulated child porn. The argument against real child porn is pretty straightforward—a child (especially a prepubescent) can’t consent to sex, so it’s blatantly child abuse. That’s a pretty easy call. But simulated, where the only person involved is the creator and there is no actual victim in the production? The only thing I can think of is an argument from adverse consequences (as in those who are likely to be child predators are likely to be encouraged by even simulated child porn)—do we consider it free (albeit repulsive) speech or do we invoke the precautionary principle on the “fire in a crowded theatre” precedent?

As the Phoenician noted well above, virtual or cartoon depictions of child pornography cannot be prosecuted as child porn, because there is no child victim.  My question has been: how can American law criminalize even actual child pornography, based on the fact that a child was a victim, if it was wholly produced overseas, beyond American legal jurisdiction?  Or, if someone goes overseas and buys child porn, how can he be prosecuted for it when he returns to the US?

I admit to being continually amazed at the sheer volume of stories in the news about yet another child porn arrest; I’m just stunned by the size of the problem.

Comment #128: Dana  on  07/21  at  10:09 PM

Back to Amanda’s original:

This is why there’s got to be critical distinctions between actually suppressing speech and creating spaces for certain discussions.  I’ve heard the argument, “Women (or fill in whatever group) suck and deserve to be treated like they’re subhuman.” It’s been debunked.  If I wanted to write a blog that was just about debunking that argument over and over and over again without saying anything new or interesting, then that’s what I’d write.  This is a different blog.  That someone has a right to say whatever they want doesn’t mean they’re entitled to an audience.  No one has a right to commandeer this audience that Jesse, Pam, and I (and our gracious commenting community) built up to have certain discussions.  We’re no more obligated to print some troll’s nonsense than Random House is obliged to publish it.

I absolutely agree.  The First Amendment prohibits the government from infringing on the freedom of speech, but this blog is private property; you have an absolute right to say who is and who is not allowed on your property.

Indeed, I would say disruptive trolling is essentially anti-freedom of speech, in that the troll wants to shut down certain conversations that he thinks shouldn’t exist here or anywhere.  He’s denying the right of us to run a blog that communicates what we want to communicate.  We have a right here to conduct conversations on our grounds, not just hand it over to some guy who has managed to hone his skills at shouting others down and making intelligent discussion impossible.

Here’s where I disagree.  Presenting an opposing view is hardly “anti-freedom of speech.”  Nor does even the persistent opponent “shut down certain conversations.” At least here he is repeatedly challenged, usually quite aggressively.  Few trolls have the time to be able to comment so voluminously, on every thread, as to be able to out-shout the huge number of regulars here who normally agree with you.

Comment #129: Dana  on  07/21  at  10:31 PM

Gotta disagree, Dana. What a troll does is harassment, not dialog. Worse, humans being human, the reaction to a particularly fetid troll can derail and entirely consume a comment thread, and trolls strive for this effect.

Your proposal might work in a Libertarian Utopia, where the Marketplace of Ideas is the magical land where all viewpoints are expressed and the best will prevail. But here in the real blogosphere trolls just want to lay a stinkbomb in the public square and gloat over the results. I frankly avoid comment sections where they tend to prevail, and since I read blogs as much for the comments as the posts, I eventually wind up bailing on such blogs altogether. And I’m hardly alone in this.

Comment #130: weirdnoise  on  07/21  at  10:59 PM

I do think the best way to both deal with the problem and work towards an end game where this kind of hatefulness doesn’t exist any more is regulating the industry heavily for abuse of workers, taking care of sex workers, and creating a culture of respect for them.  As the whole point of abusive pornography is degrading women, creating standards where actual degradation isn’t allowed will probably go far to making the consumers of it less interested in spending their money there.
Comment #16: Amanda Marcotte on 07/20 at 02:52 PM

I’d like to agree, and yet…somehow this seems to make porn actors into Kobe beef.  They’re treated well but still they portray hateful stereotypes.

While I agree they should be treated well, in addition I would say, “this particular porn is shitty.  We don’t like it, even if the stars are treated well.” 

Censorship just makes people really good at dogwhistles. 

And there’s some evidence, though it’s controversial, that making sex work legal doesn’t stop the illegal and dangerous forms of sex work.  Men who get off on degrading women won’t go to a sex worker who can say “no.”  Similarly, they won’t be interested in “nanny state santioned porn” and will go for something vile instead.  Whatever is illegal will get them off, because it’s illegal.  Hard to get around that one.

Hmm.  But isn’t it possible that non-misogynist men enjoy (or “enjoy”) misogynist porn as well?  Is it possible that you’re applying an argument by definition here (“The enjoyment of misogynist porn is in itself misogynist, and therefore men who enjoy it are by definition misogynists”)?

I state this because I believe people are not fully responsible for what turns them on.  A female who chooses to be a feminist in her politics but gets turned on by being submissive is still a feminist.

It may be worthwhile drawing a distinction between enjoying something and the actual consumption of it.
Comment #77: Phoenician in a time of Romans on 07/20 at 07:12 PM

Sure, but this means, feminists can be sexists, too.  I posed in an earlier thread that I’m racist.  I grew up in it, I can’t help it.  That doesn’t mean my sexist and racist thoughts are good by any means, or that I shouldn’t work to eradicate them, or at the very least keep them from erupting in public.

If it looks and sounds like the women are having a good time, why should we assume the viewer is getting off on women suffering degradation?  If misogynist dudes think all sex is demeaning to women, then any porn would be degrading, enema or not.  So I think it is more logical to think that for those of us who enjoy the acts performed, porn is about sex.  For those who think the acts are degrading, porn is about degradation.  So, the same clip that to some is pure misogyny, to others can be pure sexual fantasy.
Comment #95: raspberryjamba on 07/20 at 10:35 PM

1.  What if they take from this “women like being degraded”?
2.  What “looks like” she’s enjoying it is often totally not.  The enema is totally beside the point.

Porn is mostly not really women getting off on the acts, and even if they do, women get off on rape, too, unintentionally, and they were still raped. 

I’m sure some porn stars like their work, but mostly, no, they make the best of a bad situation.

And the whole argument that any woman who claims to love being oppressed and shit means that women being oppressed is just fine?  Not convincing to me.  I don’t have to think every choice is empowerfulicious.  Some women *are* conned into bullshit.

People can be stupid and that’s not a shameful thing.  Not everyone is superintelligent and superinformed.  It’s the people taking advantage of those who aren’t superintelligent or superinformed who are the shitty people.

“Are you saying my friend X is stupid?”  Dunno.  She’s been sold a bill of goods that a lot of people have bought.  Doesn’t mean she’s not smart, perhaps instead she’s been conditioned into thinking being a sex object is good. 

But then, even if she isn’t smart, she still doesn’t deserve to be predated upon.  Claiming everyone’s some kind of great chooser all the time only enables the bullies and tricksters.

I don’t think there’s anything wrong with protecting people who aren’t aware of the bullshit they’re about to consume, or have been consuming.

It’s kinda like saying LeBron isn’t really into basketball.  Or Donald Trump doesn’t like making money.
Comment #110: raspberryjamba on 07/21 at 12:52 AM

Or Andre Agassi doesn’t like playing tennis.

Comment #131: oldfeminist  on  07/21  at  11:57 PM

And there’s some evidence, though it’s controversial, that making sex work legal doesn’t stop the illegal and dangerous forms of sex work.

True, and I don’t think it’s even that controversial. The Netherlands, where prostitution is legal and very heavily regulated are a great example. The country is one of the top “destinations” for trafficked people. Majority are women brought into the country under false pretenses, then forced into sex work. Some facts here: at least 70% of prostitutes are without immigration papers and according to this recent article trafficking is still on the rise. In 2009, 809 people were victims of trafficking, most of them women and most of them known or suspected to have been forced into sex work.

I would speculate that these women, who don’t speak the language and are vulnerable due to lack of immigration status and support systems, are trafficked into the country to circumvent the regulations of sex work imposed by the government. These women can’t register and can’t join the union, and so are at a huge risk of being forced into more dangerous forms of sex work. Here’s an article an article about a conviction in 2008 of members of a human trafficking ring who forced over 100 women into prostitution. One thing that really stands out is that some women were forced to get breast enlargements and one was forced to have an abortion. If women are being forced to have surgeries, I can only imagine that they are also being forced to perform dangerous sex acts that a unionized sex worker at a registered brothel might refuse to engage in.

Clearly, the regulations and unions aren’t enough to protect all women. So, really, it’s more than a bit irresponsible to keep pointing out the few women who “chose” to go into sex work when we have evidence that huge numbers of women are forced into it.

Comment #132: elena  on  07/22  at  02:37 AM

The people talking about Jennna Jameson might be interested to read her (ghostwritten) auto-biography, wherein she described her background, the way she got into porn, and the way she rose above studio control.  It’s illuminating, to say the very least. 

Without wishing to diagnose from afar, I found it particularly interesting how much she insisted that, despite her background of parental neglect, multiple rapes, abusive relationships and long periods of dagerous drug addiction, she definitely would have become a porn actress anyway, honestly.

Comment #133: Katherine  on  07/22  at  06:30 AM

Ah, Knutetheknucklehead, just the thing to demonstrate what Amanda was talking about.

Comment #134: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/22  at  08:12 AM

Just to throw a question into the mix:

Prostitution is illegal, is it not? To pay someone to engage in sex acts, is, as far as I know, against the law in virtually every jurisdiction in the United States, is it not?

Why does the presence of a video camera make it legal?

If the question is how one could heavily restrict the production of porn without censoring speech, the easy answer is simply to eliminate the magical exemption that the presence of a video camera creates to the illegality of prostitution.

Comment #135: Orchard  on  07/22  at  11:01 AM

I’m joining in late here, so I’ll just give a few thoughts, in bullet point format.

- This “Buttman” guy [who BTW has an amazingly silly stagename ...did he think it up when he was 12?] should not have ever been prosecuted for “obscenity” and I’m glad he beat the case (that’s a victory for ALL freedom loving Americans - no government bureaucrat should decide what we see or read, let the market place of ideas decide!)

- as for those who don’t like the content of his films? Don’t watch them! I personally think that milk enemas are nasty and I would never in a million years watch them - but I would never judge the folks that do! Many folks have fetishes, and they come in all different shapes and sizes and (as long as nobody is being hurt) they are all OK and they are all NONE OF YOUR DAMNED BUSINESS - so quit worrying about what others masturbate to!

- as for those who claim to support the rights of porn actresses, know this. The reason the adult film industry is non union is because the Hollywood unions have refused to organize it  - the Screen Actors Guild and AFTRA discriminate against adult film actors and actresses and bar them from membership in their unions for reasons basically related to Hayes Office-style prudishness and moral hypocrisy - if the unions actually organized the actors and actresses who work on the other side of the Santa Monica Mountains, conditions would probably be a lot better

- as for the typical doctrinaire feminist claims that “men look at pornography to degrade women” - sorry, that’s bullshit!

Men look at porn for the same reasons we go to strip clubs or hire sex workers to get sexually aroused (no matter what self hating men like that buffoon Robert Jensen have to say to the contrary!)

Now, since men are socially conditioned to be very crude and blatant about our sexuality (the flip side of how women are conditioned to be sexually repressed) male sexual arousal can often be very vulgar and crass - but that has nothing to do with degrading women.

As for fetishists - depending on the fetish, ESPECIALLY the excretory ones (pee desperation, pants wetting, adult diaper wearing, feces-related fetishes ect), that can end up looking very nasty to an outsider ..that doesn’t mean that it has anything to do with degrading women.

- as for the “human trafficking” claims - I’m sorry, but since much of sex work is outright illegal, and even the legal forms operate in the shadows, there are no reliable objective statistics on any of that.

There are dubious and often flat out made up “statistics” from police agencies, and from anti sex work zealots with a feminist ideological axe to grind (and budgets they have to justify to their funders)

For the real story on that, read “SEX AT THE MARGINS migration, labour markets and the rescue industry” by Laura Maria Agustin http://www.amazon.com/Sex-Margins-Migration-Markets-Industry/dp/1842778609

Some of the feminist ideologues may not like the truths that Professor Agustin has to say ...but then again, she went out and actually talked to sex workers instead of sitting in an ivory tower trying to “rescue” them from their jobs.

- on this whole business of whether sex workers enjoy their jobs… there is no single answer to that. I’m sure some of them really like the work, others really hate it while others have mixed feelings about it. From what I’ve been told, it can be a very emotionally draining job - and of course there is a huge moralistic stigma against the industry - and there is the ever present threat of police repression, incarceration and (for immigrant sex workers) deportation, which surely makes the job a lot harder than it would otherwise be.

- finally,  let me end with a Christian concept “judge not, lest ye be judged” - if you support the government restricting my use of sexual materials, they will come after your sexual activity next!

Remember, this country is very close to reoutlawing abortion - and in many states they are trying to restrict women’s right to divorce.

Do you really want to be on the same page with the forces behind that?

Defending despised sexual practices is the first line of defense for the sexual and reproductive freedom of women, don’t ever forget that fact!

Comment #136: GregoryAButler  on  07/22  at  11:04 AM

Thanks for the mansplanation, GregoryAButler. I especially enjoyed the part where no one could possibly know the facts about human trafficking…unless it’s the person you agree with. I wish someone, preferably a man, had come along sooner to give me trufax! on prostitution and pornography. Then I wouldn’t have wasted all those years having to exercise my ladybrain to form my own opinions!

Comment #137: elena  on  07/22  at  11:37 AM

Man, I knew Gregory would be on here soon defending his precious, precious right to get off on whatever random act on whatever random woman he damn well pleases.

I mean really, why are y’all sex-worker-hating feminists bitching about stuff like this? Degradation shmegradation—GAB’s never felt degraded by sex work in his life! So what if he’s always been the john/porn-consumer? The workers act like they like him, and the porn actresses act like they like the sex, and that’s probably totally genuine, no need to look further than that! (And most of all: doncha know he has a note from his doctor saying he needs it? Very legitimate!) :p

Comment #138: Bagelsan  on  07/22  at  11:59 AM

Many folks have fetishes, and they come in all different shapes and sizes and (as long as nobody is being hurt) they are all OK and they are all NONE OF YOUR DAMNED BUSINESS - so quit worrying about what others masturbate to!

This is kind of a red herring.

I don’t care what fetishes are displayed or not displayed in the porn in question.  It’s that sex work is often coerced, often damaging and very, very commonly misogynist in nature. 

Two girls one cup was popular because, for most men, it showed women being degraded by something gross and disgusting, not two women doing something hot and beautiful.

In other words, fetish porn isn’t interesting to the masses because the women are doing something that gets the viewer off.  It’s interesting because it degrades women.

I really don’t care that the religious right also hates porn.  I refuse to be shamed by being called a prude or accused of “getting into bed with the enemy.”

The book you are flogging contains the unique notion that feminists who are against sex trafficking think that women should just stay at home and never try to overcome problems or troubles, and that they’re threatened by the autonomy of migrant women.  I guess because they’re hotter and sexier and will take away “our” men?

finally, let me end with a Christian concept “judge not, lest ye be judged” - if you support the government restricting my use of sexual materials, they will come after your sexual activity next!

Funny how you are saying this to a lot of people who don’t want the government to restrict your use of those materials.  As Amanda says, it’s easier to make them legal.  We will know what kind of person you are when we see you using them.

And if you don’t want us judging you on a social level, then I guess you need to shut the fuck up about us.

And could you you stop using emphasis on every other word?  It’s like reading Cosmopolitan, or CrAzY cAsE.

Comment #139: oldfeminist  on  07/22  at  12:00 PM

# 139 Elena

Calm down, take a deep breath - then go to Amazon and order Professor Agustin’s book.

Then we can discuss this matter intelligently.

Your welcome.

Comment #140: GregoryAButler  on  07/22  at  12:00 PM

# 140 Bagelsan

Does being hateful and judgmental fill the emptyness in the core of your soul?

# 141 oldfeminist

We live in a world where men are taught to be hypersexual and women are taught to be sexually repressed. This creates a gap between the amount of sex heterosexual men want and the amount of sex heterosexual women want.

Sex work fills that gap, has filled that gap for the past 5,000 years or so and will continue to fill that gap for the foreseeable future.

Maybe it’s time you faced that reality and supported legalization of and labor reform in the sex work industry.

As for your opinion about my typeface choices - duly noted, and duly disregarded.

Comment #141: GregoryAButler  on  07/22  at  12:41 PM

elena @133:
The problem you describe is endemic to all work that uses illegal immigrants in all countries where illegal immigration is found.  It is not limited to sex work.  The porn is an added factor, but is it really more disturbing than complete lack of safety in other highly dangerous work with chemicals, other toxins, machinery, etc?  Than the public safety impact of cutting corners that includes inadequate working conditions (especially for workers who dare not complain) to the food supply? 
The answer to that problem is enforcement of labor laws and immigration control.  If the people freaking out about illegal immigration didn’t seem to be invariably complete racists and/or classists, I could agree to at least discuss enforcement because of the dangers due to the exploitation of the workers and the fact those who will use them will cut costs elsewhere as well.  As they seem to be interested only in going after the workers, it’s clear they actually support the system that relies on illegal immegration.  A crackdown on the workers makes them even more vulnerable to exploitation, while ones on the employers would just close down opertunities.

Comment #142: helen w. h.  on  07/22  at  12:49 PM

GAB, I’m pretty sure I already know way more than I need to know about your views, so not really interested in discussing anything with you, thanks! As far as intelligence, I already had my doubts, which you then confirmed by confusing “your” and “you are.”

Oldfeminist, Cosmopolitan FTW! I was just trying to figure out why his formatting annoyed me so much.

Comment #143: elena  on  07/22  at  12:53 PM

GAB @143:

This creates a gap between the amount of sex heterosexual men want and the amount of sex heterosexual women want.

Bullshit.  It does create a diference in what women will admit they want to people they don’t trust.

We now have women who can and will refuse to do whatever their man wants and will even tell him to FO or leave if they aren’t listened to.  That would more be the reasons for sex work.  Historically (and to an extent still), it would have been because men controlled women’s sexuality and made other men pay for it with the women they controlled.

Comment #144: helen w. h.  on  07/22  at  12:59 PM

Wow, GAB, the solution to shitty gender roles is to import women for men to fuck?  How is that helping anyone with the shitty gender roles they’re supposed to play?

You have referred to prostitution as a solution, both for society, and for you personally because you were sexually abused. 

But the solution to sexual abuse is never more sexual abuse.  Kyriarchy is poisonous whether you are the oppressed or the oppressor.  Even if you have “a note from your doctor” (props to Bagelsan).

Here’s a book for you to try:  Pedagogy of the Oppressed, by Paulo Friere.

Comment #145: oldfeminist  on  07/22  at  01:09 PM

Helen w. h., we were not discussing trafficking in general. Oldfeminist brought up the idea that legalizing/regulating sex work does not result in eradication of illegal sex work. I agreed and brought up the example of the Netherlands. If you were to read the article I linked, you’d see that out of some 800 victims of trafficking there last year, majority were women. Out if those women, most were trafficked for sex work. So, clearly, even within the larger picture of trafficking, women forced into sex work make up the majority of cases. And when something makes up for a majority of cases, it deserves special attention.

I think you’re also confusing undocumented workers with trafficked people. Undocumented workers are exploited, but trafficked people live under modern-day slavery conditions. Businesses do not “employ” trafficked people, because they are not paid for their work. Trafficking is just not the same as immigration. The only way to eradicate it is to crack down on traffickers.

Comment #146: elena  on  07/22  at  01:14 PM

# 140 Bagelsan

Does being hateful and judgmental fill the emptyness in the core of your soul?

Nah, eating babies is for filling the emptiness; judging your creepy sexual habits is just for the lolz. :D

On a more serious note, GAB is a fantastic example of why censorship isn’t a great idea. I personally love hearing his debating/ranting/needy pleading for validation (even if I don’t love what he does or who he is) and I find it genuinely valuable having someone like that around to bounce arguments off of. That’s why I prefer Pandagon over some of the “safer” and more strictly moderated/censored blogs I read—there’s room to take an honest look at some messed up people and there’s also room to snark on and condemn f’ed up behavior (which I think is often the best medicine.)

And, to clarify to GAB, I’m not snarking on the therapy. I think therapy is fantastic. I’m laughing at the idea that you can dig up women like your therapist and that author, point to them being anything but 100% critical of prostitution, etc. and then come here and try to act like womankind has spoken so all y’all feminists need to stfu. It’s silly.

Comment #147: Bagelsan  on  07/22  at  01:59 PM

In other words, fetish porn isn’t interesting to the masses because the women are doing something that gets the viewer off.  It’s interesting because it degrades women.

I think this, and some of what Amanda was saying about the passing around of porn between men, is really interesting. I hadn’t thought of porn as a bonding and teaching mechanism before, really, but it makes a lot of sense. If a group of guys can point to something a woman does (or has done to her) on screen they can bond over how they would never do that and isn’t that woman—hell, all women—a dirty bitch? It’s like teenagers giggling over a poorly-dressed peer (“she looks poor!”) or people making fat jokes (“I’d never let myself get into that state!”) and reinforcing their group bonds through a common “enemy.”

And you can easily influence peers or younger people by “lightheartedly” showing it to them or mocking it in front of them; it clarifies who you should identify with (the viewer, not the dirty woman) and makes it obvious what behaviors are inappropriate or beneath the group. It also puts non-porn-actress women in their place—what kind of crazy bitch would you have to be to do that, it says, how could a man respect that kind of person—and without a single word to a woman she now knows how precariously she stands as a sexual being.

If you wouldn’t get pleasure just by watching something—if part of the pleasure is sharing it and squealing over it in morbid glee with people you want approval from—then it probably isn’t a fetish so much as yet another mechanism for social control.

Comment #148: Bagelsan  on  07/22  at  02:52 PM

Two girls one cup was popular because, for most men, it showed women being degraded by something gross and disgusting, not two women doing something hot and beautiful.

2G1C was “popular” for the same reasons the goatse jpg is “popular” - because it was a gross-out rather than as porn.  While (some/many) porn watchers may choose porn that degrades women, I seriously doubt that the vast vast majority of those watching it were turned on by it - they did it because they thought they were tough enough to take watching it, or laughing at their friends who thought the same.

God knows, I flinched.

Comment #149: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/22  at  05:16 PM

We live in a world where men are taught to be hypersexual and women are taught to be sexually repressed. This creates a gap between the amount of sex heterosexual men want and the amount of sex heterosexual women want.

Sex work fills that gap, has filled that gap for the past 5,000 years or so and will continue to fill that gap for the foreseeable future.

Wrong. We live in a world where women are taught to be sexually attractive, and then judged on their sexual attractiveness, and where men are taught to be ungroomed, unwashed, badly dressed, badly mannered, unempathetic, entitled whiny douchewagons, and then… well, not judged, but you can only do so much with societal control—women do still retain use of their five senses, for the most part.

This creates a giant gap in the sexual desirability of women as compared to the sexual (or any other kind of) desirability of men.

Finding ways to make women have sex with undesirable men anyway is what fills the gap. We’ve done this lost of ways—by inventing prostitution and porn, by making women’s economic standing dependent upon marriage, by shaming women for having any sort of standards whatsoever, by inventing religion and evopsych, etc.

Luckily, due to the successes of the various waves of feminism, some women are learning to judge men’s sexual desirability based on things like presence in the man of desirable physical or personality traits, rather than desire of the woman not to starve, and also some men are learning to put tiny fractions of the amount of effort women historically have into actually *developing* some form of desirability.

It’s not feminism’s fault that you aren’t one of them.

Comment #150: thecynicalromantic  on  07/22  at  06:44 PM

Thecynicalromantic wrote:

We live in a world where women are taught to be sexually attractive, and then judged on their sexual attractiveness, and where men are taught to be ungroomed, unwashed, badly dressed, badly mannered, unempathetic, entitled whiny douchewagons, and then…

Exactly how are men “taught to be ungroomed, unwashed, badly dressed,” etc?  Corporations spend billions advertising all sorts of men’s grooming products: shampoos, deodorant, razors, soaps, body-building equipment, good clothes, you name it, they’re selling it .  .  . and we’re buying.

Comment #151: Dana  on  07/22  at  09:14 PM

No, Dana.  WOMEN are buying.

See here or here or here or, y’know, poke around here for a minute or two looking for “women,” “spending,” “advertising,” “shopping,” etc.

I realize it is too much to expect that you would have learned anything from a feminist blog after all this time, but still I’m managing to be disappointed.

Comment #152: Atheist, A Feminist  on  07/22  at  10:38 PM

Dana, what you’re describing are products for basic upkeep of hygiene. Showering, shaving, wearing deodorant, getting a hair cut maybe - these things are the bare minimum requirements of modern Western society. Depending on their jobs, men might not even be expected to shave daily. Despite all the talk about metrosexuals, most men are not expected to engage in any beauty rituals or buy any products above and beyond that bare minimum. When they do, the phenomenon becomes major news and given a name. Women are required to do, and buy, much more than just the basics. Surely, you can look at the shelf space devoted to men’s and women’s beauty products at Target or Sephora and see the huge difference between the two?

Comment #153: elena  on  07/23  at  02:05 AM

Atheist, if your argument is that our wives are doing the shopping, in a lot of cases that’s true enough, but they’d onl;y have to buy once unless men were actually using the products. 

I know that this will shock you, but I actually do use shampoo and soap and toothpaste and deod.

Comment #154: Dana  on  07/23  at  07:18 AM

Какой-то архитектурный стиль в Марселе выделить невозможно. Остатки, действительно, старых домов и укреплений густо перемешаны с абсолютно невнятными по стилю и времени ccvp постройки сооружениями. Красивы здания муниципалитета, Торговой палаты, лицея Монгран (на одноименной площади). Бульвары местами напоминают парижские – на почти одинаковых домах разные обрамления балкончиков и окон. Если в Марселе есть кварталы, где чисто, мы в них не попали: город выглядит очень запущенным и неопрятным 70-562 braindumps.

По бульвару Нотр-Дам мы вышли к началу лестницы, ведущей на холм, где возвышается базилика Нотр-Дам де ла Гард с навершием в виде 10-метровой позолоченной фигуры Богоматери с младенцем. При этом основание базилики напоминает нос корабля, поэтому все вместе смотрится весьма величественно 70-620.

Как мы взбирались по этой лестнице, и что при этом мне пришлось выслушать от мужа, я, с вашего позволения, опущу L. Но вот, когда мы взобрались туда, открывающаяся сверху панорама окупила все неприятности. Залитый солнцем, внизу лежал город (мусора сверху не видно, все красиво) и порт 70-630, и знаменитый остров с замком Иф! Наснимав вдоволь во всех ракурсах базилику, виды на замок Иф и себя, любимых, на таком роскошном фоне, стали не спеша спускаться вниз, в старый порт (ноги опять болели страшно, несмотря на все предыдущие наши пешие походы!).

Comment #155: riyanjason  on  07/23  at  09:22 AM

Dana, I hang out with nerds. I fucking wish the existence of all those horrible misogynistic Axe commercials at least meant that all men washed themselves.

There is a pretty sizable contingent of men—not all of them, but enough—for whom even the notion of showering every day is some sort of horrible shallow girly waste of time. And they are not all dumpster-diving college freegans, like the two women I’ve ever met in my entire life who don’t shower every day were. They’re regular old nerd dudes. I also get the notion that quite a lot of dudes who do shower every day are only doing it as a capitulation towards making those silly shallow girls put up with them, and if women didn’t demand that they put at least 1% as much effort into their appearance as we do to avoid being shamed out of existence, they wouldn’t so much as put pants on in the morning.

And yeah, as Elena said, that’s hygiene, not beauty. Guys, for the most part, don’t do beauty. I realize I may be an extreme case, but—I learned leg and armpit hair were the grossest of gross things from a lifetime of listening to hairy-legged, hairy-armpitted dudes laughing over how gross hairy-legged, hairy-armpitted feminazis were, and it worked. I am somewhat obsessive about body hair removal and spend way too much money on it. It also took me about ten years to lower my standards enough to not be flat-out resentful every time dudes who looked like dudes asked me out, although I still do have “totally unreasonably uppity bitch” standards: I believe actually having two separate eyebrows is the minimum standard for (a) asking me out without me being actually offended by it and (b) ever saying anything remotely critical of a woman’s appearance ever, even if she’s wearing jeggings and her shirt inside out.

This is starting to change a little bit, in some more urban/cosmpolitan/blue-statey places, partly due to feminism and partly due to the beauty-industrial complex pretty much just starting to run out of new ways to make women feel insecure and spend money on beauty products (we only have so many body parts, after all) and needing to expand their market however they can, but if you think that “rugged manly man who doesn’t care about girly shit like his appearance” trope really doesn’t exist, then I don’t know what planet you live on, but I’d like to move there.

Comment #156: thecynicalromantic  on  07/23  at  10:24 AM

<I know that this will shock you, but I actually do use shampoo and soap and toothpaste and deod. >

How about exfoliant, bodywash, leg/body moisturizer, those little porous rocks that take the callouses off of your heel, nailpolish to make your nails longer/harder/stronger, nailpolish for colour, emery boards for perfect nail shape, tweezers for eyebrows, wax for eyebrows, daily spf face moisturizer (to prevent wrinkles later in life), hand lotion, mouthwash…?

And that’s just what I can think of off the top of my head, and that list doesn’t include makeup, makeup remover or any of the long list of hair products (above and beyond “shampoo”) that I use to make my hair socially/workplace acceptable (it’s very frizzy… sigh). And I’m not a “high-maintenance” kind of gal… that list of things is what a “low-maintenance” office working female needs to exist in the corporate environment without jeopardizing her carreer advancement.

So please, go on about the shampoo and soap that you use and keep totally missing the point that was being made.

Comment #157: kodiak  on  07/23  at  10:33 AM

If she is wearing her shirt inside out, and she is a friend, I want to know if she is having a really bad day or a really good one. 
If I don’t know her, it’s none of my business, of course, though I might still make sure she knows so can find a place to fix it if she cares.

Comment #158: helen w. h.  on  07/23  at  10:37 AM

elena @ 148:
My point was that you shouldn’t claim that regulating an industry doesn’t work with statistics for those breaking the law to avoid meeting the regulations.  No matter what industry or working standards are enforced, people who use undocumented workers or trafficed people are already breaking the law. 

If only the work standards are policed and lack of enforement of anti-traffic laws and illegal immigration abuses are ignored, the work standards only apply to those who can insist they will be.

It is dishonest to claim data on illegal enterprises proves that regulation of legal establishments/workplaces doesn’t work.  The data on those legal establishments raises issues enough for discussion without bringing in the more problematic issue of already fully illlegal and immoral abuses like trafficing and immigrant exploitation.

Comment #159: helen w. h.  on  07/23  at  11:05 AM

It is dishonest to claim data on illegal enterprises proves that regulation of legal establishments/workplaces doesn’t work.  The data on those legal establishments raises issues enough for discussion without bringing in the more problematic issue of already fully illlegal and immoral abuses like trafficing and immigrant exploitation.
Comment #161: helen w. h.  on 07/23 at 10:05 AM

Data on illegal enterprises, in places where there’s a legal alternative, does say something about how well making something legal works. 

When you have a thriving illegal sex trade alongside the legal one, you have to look at what social factors make the illegal trade preferable to the people who participate in it.

In sex work, the buyer can get a greater feeling of power (which porn says makes a lot of men very happy, e.g. “eat it, bitch”) because he doesn’t have to follow silly rules about condoms, violence, or not making the sex worker your prisoner.

Not everyone in the illegal sex work trade is undocumented or trafficked workers.  Sure, they’re an easy source, but the number of sex workers today who are legal citizens but are forced to do things they don’t want to do through brutalization is hardly zero.  I don’t think making it legal will bring all of them into legal status.

Comment #160: oldfeminist  on  07/23  at  02:09 PM

Oldfeminist, I was about to jump in, but you said everything I was going to say, and better. Well said!

Comment #161: elena  on  07/23  at  02:40 PM

It is no more legit than saying the fact the meth cooker in the first floor apartment is poisoning little Sue in the 2nd floor apartment as well as himself by making his stuff there is a reflection on how the pharma industry regulations just don’t safeguard pharma employees and the general public.

Comment #162: helen w. h.  on  07/27  at  01:57 PM
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