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Next entry: Undersupplied U.S soldiers forced to steal water Previous entry: Let It Be Resolved: No Fucks Are Given

Why President Obama hurts his own cause of addressing homophobia in the black community

(I really hope this doesn’t become an orphan thread…please get out of your comfort zones and comment.)

Over the last few days we have seen the White House struggle to answer questions about the failed discriminatory policy known as Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, as well as respond intelligently to the recent positive domino effect of marriage equality occurring in states—moves that affirm those governments realize separate is not equal.

Candidate Obama decided to regress his political position from supporting full marriage equality to a “God is in the mix” conflation of religious and civil marriage when he ran for president. What was seen as a political necessity/reality at the time has wreaked havoc on the PR front of late, but it has also allowed the anti-gay establishment to cite his opposition to marriage equality over and over again. The old unintended consequences—at our expense.

Marc Fisher in the WaPo takes the position that yes, pols like Obama and fellow equality regression-sufferer Marion Barry are indeed using the LGBT community as a political football.

In 1996, Barack Obama responded to a Chicago newspaper’s questions about the issue with these words: “I favor legalizing same-sex marriages, and would fight efforts to prohibit such marriages.”

...Obama has characteristically reached out to the center, writing in his 2006 book, “The Audacity of Hope”: “It is my obligation, not only as an elected official in a pluralistic society but also as a Christian, to remain open to the possibility that my unwillingness to support gay marriage is misguided . . . and that in years hence I may be seen as someone who was on the wrong side of history.”

Yeah, that’s his political escape hatch—that he will have some “moment of clarity” sometime in the future, a political revelation (guided by polls, of course), that separate is not equal. Fisher offer this rationale for both Marion Barry’s opposition to marriage recognition in DC and Obama’s absurd position on equality:

Barry’s claim to be “a moral politician” was catnip to the late-night TV comics. But he has positioned himself of late as the voice of pre-gentrification D.C.—older black residents who feel that their city has been taken over by newcomers, especially affluent young whites. Add the faceoff between Barry and Mayor Adrian Fenty—whose deepest support comes from exactly those newcomers—and you have a compelling political rationale for Barry’s flip.

The president’s position is also rooted in electoral concerns, including the simple desire to be true to a campaign stance that helped him demonstrate that he is not a knee-jerk liberal. Just as Obama’s selection of evangelical minister Rick Warren to deliver the prayer at his inauguration raised the hackles of many liberal and gay supporters, the president’s stand on same-sex marriage sends a message of moderation to religious voters, even as he assures gays that he supports them on civil unions and repealing the military’s “Don’t ask, don’t tell” policy.

In other words, Obama and Barry don’t want to challenge religious voters (or rather anti-gay religious voters, since there are those of faith who support equality, but they are always rendered invisible in these discussions) on their ignorance about the difference between religious and civil marriage.

Politicians such as Obama and Barry won’t hesitate to go where the people are when the time is right. But on difficult and divisive issues, they’re happier to hold back until the people have spoken. Call it timidity, call it craven, but it’s how things work.

It’s all about politics, friends, and LGBTs are still the field hands, not a player in the Big House. There is no LBJ with political courage to look to on these issues, and Fisher gives them the classic out.

***

But I want to return to the subject of black homophobia, and the impact of President Obama’s decision to purposefully confuse the issue, despite being a Constitutional scholar.

Reader Robert M points to a great post on Jack and Jill Politics, Gay Marriage and the Black Community. Barack Obama showed courage in addressing homophobia in the black community during the campaign, but he has now left LGBTs, particularly black LGBTs, twisting in the wind to battle the ignorance he affirms. (It should be noted that LGBT POC are also frequently left twisting in the wind by the larger—read: white-dominated—LGBT community and leadership, that is loathe to address the racial discord that inhibits progress.)

Craig Hickman delivered a personal, powerful essay that intelligently gets to the heart of why civil marriage equality is necessary and important for the black community to support. It’s the kind of messaging that leads and challenges, rather than follows, on this issue. It’s something the President has abandoned since taking up residence at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

More below the fold.
A snippet:

For me, civil rights is civil rights is civil rights. Equal protection under the law is equal protection under the law. In employment. In housing. In public accommodations. In adoption. In civil marriage. Either we ALL have it or we don’t.

...When a person has no recourse to force an undertaker to come and take a corpse out of their home because the survivor is not legally considered the next of kin despite their 30-YEAR RELATIONSHIP and the dead person’s next of kin is thousands of miles away and, because of Alzheimer’s, doesn’t even remember who the dead person is anymore, but she is the only person alive who, by state law, can force the undertake to remove the corpse from their house; when you wrap your mind around all of the practical and emotional turmoil that results in this situation because of this discrimination, I would argue STRONGLY that that certificate of marriage is way more than just a piece of paper.

This is but one example. It’s not a hypothetical, either.

I could provide many others, several much more devastating.

A marriage certificate is akin to an adoption decree and an altered birth certificate: it creates a LEGAL FAMILIAL RELATIONSHIP.

...Adoption and civil marriage are the only two ways the state allows unrelated people to create a LEGAL FAMILY UNIT in this country. Both are established by a certificate – a piece of paper filed with the office of vital statistics – which protects that FAMILY UNIT against all sorts of madness and bullshit from other parties.

As Black people whose ancestors’ families were ripped apart by the institution of slavery, HOW CAN WE STAND IN OPPOSITION TO THE CREATION OF A FAMILY UNIT and the safety and SECURITY, emotional and otherwise, that ensue for all of its members?

Tell me, Black people.

HOW?

This seems so simple to understand, so rational, right? You should see some of the comments that erupted in the thread at JJP. It shows you how difficult it is to penetrate 1) homophobia based on religious convictions and very selective readings of the Bible tossed casually out there as moral certainty while ignoring passages that condemn their own behavior; and 2) the odd zero-sum game that civil rights for LGBTs somehow diminishes rights granted to blacks as a result of the struggle of that civil rights movement. The fact that the two movements aren’t wholly equivalent yet both have merit seems to escape some commenters. Here’s one:

Craig I am sorry my friend you are off base.It seems that from your background you are fighting not for gay people but against a so called establishment you never fit into being black,adopted,gay. Not to insult but you are a misfit and like all misfits you want the world to validate your abnormalities. You want acceptance and validation from the society that rejects you.

My friend you will never convince the majority of people that the lifestyle you live is anything but unnatural.The majority of us know gay people and have no problem with them. Most care not about this issue. This is a gay militant extremist equal to the KKK in White America that is trying to force this down the public’s throat. I want to ask you some very serious questions.First of all you are going to have violence soon as sure as I am sitting here if you keep pushing this on the Black community in the name of civil rights. That being said,do you think we should let men marry their daughters? Women marry their son? There are people who believe that should be legal.What about a man marrying 5 wives? Or a woman with 5 husbands? Society has a right to regulate morals and behavior when it is just. Laws against interracial marriage were unjust, because they were created by racist not from any religious belief system so stop comparing the two please.

This clearly an attempt to not only compare interracial marriage with gay marriage but to also trivialize the 400 years of pain of people who were forced into bondage. No one is forcing gays into bondage this is something they want not need.To suggest basic rights as a human being to a lifestyle shows you have bought the racist on the left’s cool aid.They also think black people need them to lord over.

Note that this commenter has bought the whole bag of goods that the white anti-gay establishment has been shilling in the community for some time now. Where is our counter message? Oh, that’s right, the first black President believes (in public) that “God is in the mix,” and that separate is equal. So that gives these commenters license to continue spew this nonsense. There’s no leadership coming from this White House to counter the issue of black homophobia that he called out so clearly in the past. From his speech delivered at the house of worship where Dr. Martin Luther King preached, Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta in January 2008:

And yet, if we are honest with ourselves, we must admit that none of our hands are entirely clean.  If we’re honest with ourselves, we’ll acknowledge that our own community has not always been true to King’s vision of a beloved community.

We have scorned our gay brothers and sisters instead of embracing them.

Where is this Barack Obama? Will he continue, with his silence, to allow ignorance to continue to divide us? People at JJP are clearly seeking answers in their dialogue with one another, but they clearly want and need leadership on this issue to have their back against a religious community that is red alert anti-gay.

I feel you Craig on the “FAMILY UNIT” standpoint, but how would you respond to those citizens who argue, “I don’t want my children ‘exposed’ to homosexuality. I don’t ever want to have that conversation with my child.” So from their vantage point, their fighting to protect their “FAMILY UNIT,” family values, etc.

These people have internalized gay marriage as the greatest threat to their family units (greater than any economic calamity or terrorism). They could give less than a fuck about the “Rights of Kin,” or what happens at the funeral home with gay lovers. They are fighting to perpetuate their bloodlines through the traditional definition of marriage: a man and a woman.

But contrary to popular belief in the LGBT community, there is reasoned, honest support out there, allies that should be cultivated. It’s why we need more cross-cultural dialogue, rather than retreating to corners of silence and comfort.

This is an issue that has bothered me over the last few months, especially after the race baiting that went on after Prop. 8 in California. However, over the last few weeks, two different storylines have moved me to tears.

I watched three parents on Oprah who buried their little boys because of sexual orientation bullying. We have made homosexuality so taboo and disgraceful that these beautiful little boys would rather be dead than be taunted with a gay “slur”. It occurred to me that those of us who have been silent on this issue have somehow fed into this notion and that was devastating.

The second was watching the happiness on the faces of same sex couples with the decisions in Iowa and Maine on gay marriage. Why should they have to fight to be seen as equals? Why should they have to convince people that they deserve the same rights that many of us take for granted and enter into legal marriages for a variety or reasons, many of them silly and many doomed to fail. Why should their rights be decided by ballot initiatives?

The sad reality is that if black equality of the 1960’s was decided by the opinions of everyday God fearing, church going Americans, we’d still be eating at segregated lunch counters and riding on the back of the bus. Please stop using religion to cover your bigotry as I can assure you that since the advent of the slave trade, people have used those same arguments to defend the systematic racism, rape, and genocide of black people.

***

Great post, Craig. Marriage is a civil contract, as evidenced by the piece of paper given to the couple by the religious offical who performs the ceremony and the words spoken, “Byt the power vested in me by the State of ___…” We still have separation of church and state in this country, although you wouldn’t know it by some of the laws being passed.And although I am a white, straight woman, I am always saddened and confused when I hear AAs say that gay marriage is not a civil right or that gay rights do not equate to civil rights. As the mother of a gay son, you cannot tell me when he is denied the very same rights my straight son has, that is not about equality and civil rights. I will fight to my dying breath for those rights for my son and his partner and for all LGBT people in this county and everywhere I can.

***

[and note this response]

Neither of your sons are denied any rights. You have one son who chooses not to marry the opposite gender and thus he is denying himself ‘rights’ because he is not engaging in marriage in the way society has deemed in it’s best interest. Societal interest when it comes to marriage is not about the individual rather, the state of matrimony itself, is set up to circumscribe individual pursuit of happiness, THUS the incentives/benefits given to those individuals who CHOOSE to enter in the state of matrimony where they LOSE individual rights under the law when it comes to property.

The problem here is that ‘gay folks and their advocates’ think marriage is about the individual and it is not.

***

Now the adoption of particular language of Civil Rights and the co-opting of African-American culture to promote Marriage Equality (and Feminism too for that matter) bothers me because it’s white people (men mostly) using it while IGNORING the contributions of AAs who may also be LGBT - and that REALLY bothers me.

I’d like to see more AA LGBTs step forward in leadership positions and address this because it is an impediment from getting all the support available.

Setting that aside for a moment though I absolutely agree that legalizing marriages between adults who are the same gender, transgendered, etc is not something that should be barred. The irony is that other states have moved forward while CA has not, but it’s all blowback in my opinion. $40M and 12 years of planning didn’t stop other people in smaller areas from passing legal protections.

People may not realize that the image of the oversexualized (white) male having indiscriminate sex is not the life of the average LBGT anymore. AIDS took care of that and people realized “traditional” relationships would stop the cannibalization of the majority population. Quite frankly the behavior of some had to change to preserve the lives of the majority. I am hoping a similar shift in attitude and political advancement results from the majority of AA women who are now the hardest hit group of HIV/AIDS.

We just have to keep making inroads and keep marching around the embattlements because like reproductive rights some will always be in attack mode and we must be very diligent about guarding the things we value. Bigotry does not give religious beliefs free reign.

I could go on and on posting some of the extremely interesting comments, but I encourage you to surf over and check it out.

Where does that leave us—the black community, the LGBT community, the black LGBT community—in dealing with a President reticent to do much of anything about LGBT issues or homophobia in the black community unless there’s overwhelming support to give him cover? Obviously I don’t have the answers, but I do know we have to to discuss these outside of the respective echo chambers in order to succeed.

Our fractured communities are so easily be played against one another and sitting here in virtual space I see it way too often. Our organizations often look impotent (from the outside) in dealing with this White House. There is little evidence that any meaningful pressure is being applied. We need have our acts together and working in concert for equality in order to make this administration hear us—and hold him to his promises to embark on meaningful change, as well as challenge those who uphold bigotry in the name of religion who should know better.

Related:
* Where’s Barack Obama, the ‘Fierce Advocate’ for LGBT rights?
* The White House has nowhere to hide from MSM equality questions as Gibbs blows it at presser
* CNN report ‘Gay Issues Closing In On Obama’ shows the MSM is noticing the White House silence
* The Obama admin doesn’t know how to respond to the marriage equality dominoes
* Words Mean Everything
* Which way is Obama’s religion wind blowing?

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Posted by Pam Spaulding on 04:44 PM • (75) Comments

The backsliding on this and other issues (such as transparency in government, immediate withdrawal from Iraq, investigating Bush administration lawbreaking, and more) are making me very disappointed in Barack Obama.  I’m still glad he’s President and hope he can be convinced to return to the more progressive positions he held on the campaign trail, and he’s certainly better by far than any Republican extant (and likely will be again in 2012); but one can support the President and still be disappointed in his actions.

Comment #1: liberalrob  on  05/13  at  05:49 PM

Okay ... I’m going to step outside my comfort zone.

A fair amount of attention has been paid to the fact that red states actually do worse on “family” issues than blue states - more divorce, more teen pregnancy, etc. There has been analysis that says that anxiety around changing gender roles and the erosion of traditional family structures gets taken out on the issue of gay marriage. To what extent do similar anxieties in AA communities contribute to opposition to gay marriage? If that is a factor, how can it be addressed?

I know that I feel very strongly that my marriage is my responsibility and denying rights to other people has nothing to do with supporting or affirming my marriage (if anything, it lessens it), and I honestly have no idea how to speak to people who see gay marriage as a threat to marriage. Like ... I have no idea what they actually mean when they say that, so I have no idea how to respond. But I think that some people really do see it that way - not just as a cheap piece of rhetoric, but they really, truly feel threatened. I don’t know how to reach those people.

I also read something (and I think it was William Saletan, so I take it with a grain of salt, but he’s not always wrong) that the more you think being gay isn’t a choice, the more likely you are to support gay rights. I’m not entirely sure why that is, but there is at least a very strong correlation. This same piece said polls found blacks to be much less likely than whites to think that being gay isn’t a choice. I would suspect these beliefs also correlate pretty strongly with conservative religious beliefs, and I don’t know if the polls controlled for that when comparing the responses from blacks and whites. So I don’t know if the difference is one of religion or something else.

Does moving Obama on this issue change things in the black community? Or is moving Obama important just for its own sake - to have a president who favors marriage equality?

Comment #2: chingona  on  05/13  at  06:09 PM

Does moving Obama on this issue change things in the black community?

No, what changes things is a president willing to discuss these issues openly so they can be debated honestly. It’s called leadership and using the bully pulpit. He’s now silent. When a reporter friend of mine called the White House to ask for a statement about marriage equality passing in Vermont, the official statement was:

No comment.”

The problem is he’s set his own trap with the absurd position that he has to now politically defend, even as his stance that civil unions are somehow equivalent to marriage keeps getting shot down as states and courts say otherwise. This admin is behind the curve now.

Comment #3: Pam Spaulding  on  05/13  at  06:19 PM

So, Raines approves of Obama now? NOOOOO- wait a minute. I don’t actually care!

Moving on… I too feel let down. This sort of thing makes me wonder- if we abolished the electoral college and just went with one person, one vote like sane, rational people, would LGBT people have more of a voice? It would no longer really matter what the majority in a particular state voted for, it would matter what different cross-sections of the population voted for - and with LGBT making up around 10% of the population (?) that would be a fairly significant section for politicians to try to win over. Or am i being too optimistic again? Would the worst of the wingnuts gain more influence too, thus balancing the numbers?

Comment #4: Zef  on  05/13  at  06:23 PM

In terms of feeling let down, I had tended to think that Obama wasn’t going to move the ball forward, but he wouldn’t stand in the way either. It’s seeming like his very position, though, is more of an impediment than I realized. I guess I didn’t really think all these states were going to go in a row.

Comment #5: chingona  on  05/13  at  06:32 PM

I’m not particularly surprised, honestly. I find the tendency of democrats to run liberal, especially in “safe” districts, and then end up “governing from the center” infuriating.

I do find the wider black community’s acceptance of homobigotry intensely troubling, for pretty much the exact same reasons I find my own (Jewish) community’s homobigotry and anti-Palestinian rhetoric so troubling. Anyone with a living memory of that kind of soul crushing violent hatred, of this intolerance directed at you just for who you are has no goddamn business doing it to anyone else.

The fact that they would cloak it in religion, and attempt to claim this flagrant violation of empathy to be following the teachings of the man who told the parable of the good samaritan, who over and over reiterated the ethic of reciprocity.

I’m fully aware that a standard tactic of oppression is to attempt to turn the subgroups against one another. That doesn’t excuse anyone who actually does then turn against others. the fact that each meme of inferiority is separate enough that knowing fully the falsehood of one doesn’t prevent others from receiving another, when reason and humanity would dictate that the knowledge of the falsehood of one should immunize one to the thought. But internalized hatred and low status makes people want to elevate themselves over others with the most vicious, cutthroat of behavior.

I really have trouble discussing it, because it really is the thing that fills me with the most anger, and which I have the least ability to actually do anything about.

Comment #6: karpad  on  05/13  at  06:32 PM

From Franklin Raines above, “Buckle up, Buttercup, it’s only been less than four months. It’ll be a long four years.”

Indeed.  Expecting Obama to be a trailblazer?  Please.  Obama’s biggest skill is getting elected.  He’s a centrist and a “pleaser”.

Obama and for that matter, a pathetic wretch of a congress will see the light when enough states wake up and do the right thing and not a moment before.

Comment #7: ice weasel  on  05/13  at  06:35 PM

Zef- For that plan to work, we’d need to have a PR system of electing officials, which I actually do rather support. That way if say a mere half of the expected LGBT population say 2.5-5% of the total population were to vote as one block, they’d have a sizable presence in House and a guaranteed strong advocate and proponent on singular issues that affect the community like this. This would at least keep this stuff front and center.

More to the point, it would allow progressives to put pressure on centrists by shifting away from them when disappointed thus reducing their size in coalitions and thus their symbolic weight. This would stop things like what’s been happening where the Democrat strategists have basically been halting everything in misplaced fear of pulling a Clinton, not realizing that’s exactly how Clinton pulled a Clinton with their answer to marginalized groups basically being “the other guys want to kill you, so what choice do you have” which is not a good answer.

Comment #8: Cerberus  on  05/13  at  06:39 PM

Barack really does need to step up on DADT in particular. There really is no reason to keep the stupid policy except as a sop to the wild right. Another big point would be to invite important members of LGBT civil society to the White House (Gene Robinson being number one on my list, followed by Pam) to discuss the issues.

The civil union/ marriage issue is less under his control although trying to repeal the so-called Defense of Marriage Act would be step one. He may just try to punt on that one.

I feel like the Washington Democrats, not just Barack, are worried about anything that might re-united and energize the wingnuts. Obviously the religious wingnuts will never vote for the Black Antichrist, but keeping them confused is a next best thing.

Comment #9: histro-geek  on  05/13  at  06:41 PM

There’s not much Obama or Congress can do about marriage equality (other than overturn DOMA).  Thanks to various states’ anti-equality constitutional amendments, at this point only a U.S. Constitutional Amendment (which will never happen) or the U.S. Supreme Court can impose marriage equality nationwide.  Looking at the makeup of the Court, I’m not optimistic.

Comment #10: keshmeshi  on  05/13  at  06:55 PM

Dear Frankie the Illiterate Coward -

Please don’t mistake our criticism of Obama for “buyer’s remorse” in the sense of wishing we’d voted for McCain.  McCain was an angry, stupid, erratic man who was (like the entire remaining GOP) deeply beholden to the most deranged elements of the far Right.  If he’d been elected, he would almost certainly be Herbert Hoovering his way through the financial crisis while doing everything in his power to stop the spread of marriage equality and undermine women’s reproductive rights.

We criticize Barack Obama because he isn’t progressive enough, but we recognize that having a president who’s a fair-weather friend is better than having a president who’s an enemy.  To say nothing of the simple fact that having a president who’s sane and intelligent is better than having a president who’s…not.

Comment #11: Seraph  on  05/13  at  07:00 PM

There’s not much Obama or Congress can do about marriage equality (other than overturn DOMA).

Hey, as a wise man once said, that ain’t nothin’.

Comment #12: Seraph  on  05/13  at  07:00 PM

Cerberus, good point.  Is there any group out there pushing for PR, or is it considered too gosh-darn unAmerican? (After all, in a competitive capitalist country, there can only be…two?)

Comment #13: Zef  on  05/13  at  07:01 PM

The biggest problem that I have is that the man who has been credited with all his rhetorical skills and speechwriting nuance is allowing the right wing to over and over state that their position is the same as his, whether they are speaking of repealing all rights for same-sex couples in marriage, or just supporting civil unions.

Even if he were to answer these questions in terms of his “fierce support” for equality while being non-specific on HOW it will come about, repeating the “gay people are citizens just like everyone else” thing, I’d be happier than “no comment”

Comment #14: Lymis  on  05/13  at  07:03 PM

I too am disappointed in several of Obama’s backward movement on some issues. Mostly DADT. In my opinion a wholly ridiculous policy in the first place. In January of this year when asked if he would be repealing that policy, he said “Yes”. He didn’t say, “Well we’ll wait and see. I’m a christian, ya know and maybe god doesn’t blah, blah, blah”.

I was upset at his middle of the road bullshit stance on marriage equality, but am even more upset now that the enemies of marriage are using position against us.

Comment #15: Mark  on  05/13  at  07:06 PM

chingona-

I know what you mean. I also wasn’t expecting an ally and that the Democratic strategists would basically adopt a hide and pretend it away of not making the problem worse at least, but being then before the Prop 8 backlash and the sudden upheaval of the game board, the old neutral is rapidly becoming an obstructionist stance.

I think I’m most upset not just on the cowardice to change strategy when there is positive momentum (something he’s been real wary to do with most important things), but rather that our routed enemies have essentially retreated to using the president’s popularity as a final shield and Obama hasn’t even bothered to clear his throat and say something milquetoast like “it seems to me that full equality under the law is a noble goal that must be weighed considerably against the deep and honest faith of blah blah absolute bullshit”.

Though it could be like the gay community a lot of the growing momentum is oddly still keeping a wary eye on California to trust the fairy tale. But still, that’s not an excuse.

Comment #16: Cerberus  on  05/13  at  07:08 PM

Zef- A couple. And when I get back, I’ll definitely be seeing if I can help work with a group to push it in a test state like California where there is strong diversity and a lot of potential reps and state reps, but we are really overdue for the overhaul. Two parties really does not work and especially after the Repubs latest performances, that’s becoming all too obvious.

Comment #17: Cerberus  on  05/13  at  07:11 PM

Just to clarify, Pam: are you saying that Barack Obama has changed his position on same-sex marriage, or that he was deliberately lying in the hope of gaining more votes?  If it is the latter, then it certainly dovetails nicely with your notion that a conservative closeted homosexual or bisexual politician ought to be outed specifically to get people to vote against him!

Comment #18: Dana  on  05/13  at  07:51 PM

Thanks for focusing on this one, Pam.  Of course we saw this coming long before Warren was chosen to be on the inaugeration stage—I have been waiting for commentators like yourself to get publicly, prolix-ally critical on this issue, and you didn’t disappoint (a lot of matter in that post to digest).  Blend it up.

Comment #19: Ranylt  on  05/13  at  07:54 PM

As Theodore Roosevelt famously observed, the President’s greaest power (and TR got plenty of experience in exercising every Presidential power) is to persuade Congress, the courts and the public.  Here we have the greatest public speaker of the generation as President, and he refuses to stick his neck out and make a strong persuasive case.  Damn, talk about your missed opportunities.

But as others have said, we’re better off with Obama refusing to act, than having McCain or Palin acting against us.

Comment #20: Dr. Psycho  on  05/13  at  08:31 PM

This is a gay militant extremist equal to the KKK in White America that is trying to force this down the public’s throat.

Except for the fact that the KKK fights to maintain the current power structure as members of the majority, power class, and “gay militants” are fighting for civil rights from a minority and discriminated against position.

I want to ask you some very serious questions.First of all you are going to have violence soon as sure as I am sitting here if you keep pushing this on the Black community in the name of civil rights.

Really?  Then some folks belong in jail.

Laws against interracial marriage were unjust, because they were created by racist not from any religious belief system so stop comparing the two please.

Bullshit.  They were justified by religious beliefs, which just so happened to be racist, just as the current discrimination is justified by homophobic religious beliefs.

Religion has NO PLACE in civil society.  None.  All you theocratic assholes need to go read Matthew and the Sermon on the Mount until you get that through your stupid heads.

As for my erstwhile Senator…this is why I always laughed whenever the GOP ranted about him being the most liberal Senator in Congress.  The man is a centrist.  Always has been, probably always will be.  Personally, I want Feingolds and Kuciniches in there defending my Constitution, but Barry will do for now, especially against a GOP that steals elections when it can and proffers Cheneys and Palins.

Policy-wise, Obama and HRC are not that different, with the exception that Hillary wouldn’t apologize for AUMF or admit it was a mistake and Barry said it was wrong. 

Progressives need to push hard, b/c the DSCC and DCCC are going to give us Blue Dogs and Arlen Spector, and that’s just not good enough.  We need to push and get real progressives in there.  I still hope that B. Hussein is playing the long game and holding back more liberal policies in hopes of 2012, but I also think that’s stupid.  He’ll never have more power than he does right now, and he needs to use it before he loses it.

Comment #21: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/13  at  08:32 PM

First up, DADT has to go.  Not only is the majority of the American public against it, more importantly, the majority of active duty service personnel have NO concerns about serving with openly homosexual colleagues.
Military recruiters are now accepting people with criminal records, gang and militia-group memberships.  And we’re still tossing out trained, educated people just because they’re tired of living in the closet?  Madness.

Comment #22: CParis  on  05/13  at  08:56 PM

Just a note of thanks to those of you who ventured into this thread for discussion; I appreciate it. [Even Franklin “Buckle up, Buttercup” Raines, haha. I guess Buttercup is less inflammatory than “vicious anti-Christian lesbian activist.”]

histro-geek@05:41 PM

Another big point would be to invite important members of LGBT civil society to the White House (Gene Robinson being number one on my list, followed by Pam) to discuss the issues.

I’m sure that invitation is in the mail….lol. Seriously. The folks that do have access—and he does have openly gay folks in his admin—seem to have little influence, not even enough to get him to squeak out more than a no comment and to have Robert Gibbs looking like an idiot when Jake Tapper asks him how does the president’s position on marriage not look like endorsing “separate but equal.”

karpad@5:32:

Anyone with a living memory of that kind of soul crushing violent hatred, of this intolerance directed at you just for who you are has no goddamn business doing it to anyone else.

Isn’t that the truth?

histro-geek@05:41 PM

Barack really does need to step up on DADT in particular. There really is no reason to keep the stupid policy except as a sop to the wild right.

I have debated for a long time over at my pad that DADT is the easiest one to overturn, simply because it is about national security, and 2) the right wing has nothing to come back at this except the “dropping the soap” predator meme, which is bullsh*t since many countries already have gays and lesbians openly serving (along side our troops). Where’s all the mass man-on-man-molesting—it’s all in Elaine Donnelly’s mind. She made an ass out of herself on the Hill last year at the hearings and no one except the wild fringe came to her defense. Not one member of Congress wanted to hitch a ride on that crazy train.

Lymis@06:03 PM

The biggest problem that I have is that the man who has been credited with all his rhetorical skills and speechwriting nuance is allowing the right wing to over and over state that their position is the same as his

Yeah, all of a sudden those mad rhetorical skillz are MIA when it comes to addressing this huge issue. He continues to hand the right this gift, and they are milking it for all they can get.

Comment #23: Pam Spaulding  on  05/13  at  09:03 PM

Laws against interracial marriage were unjust, because they were created by racist not from any religious belief system so stop comparing the two please.

Google this quote if you don’t recognize it, it is illuminating:

“Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, malay and red, and he placed them on separate continents. And, but for the interference with his arrangement, there would be no cause for such marriage. The fact that he separated the races shows that he did not intend for the races to mix.”

Comment #24: asdf  on  05/13  at  09:23 PM

Dana @ 6:51, are you suggesting Pres. Obama is bisexual?

Comment #25: NancyP  on  05/13  at  09:43 PM

the right wing has nothing to come back at this except the “dropping the soap” predator meme, which is bullsh*t since many countries already have gays and lesbians openly serving (along side our troops). Where’s all the mass man-on-man-molesting—it’s all in Elaine Donnelly’s mind. She made an ass out of herself on the Hill last year at the hearings and no one except the wild fringe came to her defense.

You’d think they could just, y’know, enforce laws against rape. You know, sexual assault gets you a dishonorable discharge and a decade or two in Leavenworth. I’d think it would be good for morale knowing that no one is going to get away with victimizing you in any way.

You could extend this further, enforce other laws, like harassment, anti-racism policies, and rules against fraud.

It really is remarkable that no component of DADT includes the assumption that military justice should do its goddamn job.

Comment #26: karpad  on  05/13  at  09:59 PM

Does moving Obama on this issue change things in the black community?

Hell naw.

Comment #27: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/13  at  10:05 PM

Yeah, I had figured that even with everything on his plate, Obama would get to DADT by July, but this doesn’t seem like it’s going to happen. Although he’s made progress on the bankruptcy of the American automobile industry, he’s still working out the torture issues —who if anyone will be prosecuted, etc.

The other thing: if you look at the Civil Rights Act of 1964 you see that it was a bipartisan effort. Republican Everett Dirksen worked with Democrats Hubert Humphrey and Mike Mansfield to get it through the threat of Senate filibuster. No bipartisan effort on gay rights seems possible today, with the Republicans forming a solid wall of resistance to any Democratic initiatives.

You can’t blame Obama for failing to rally Republicans behind him, so unless you want gay rights to be some sort of Democrat fad, the grass roots have to get GOP support. Otherwise that just gives them the opportunity to take shots at the Democrats again. Open up the Log Cabin.

Comment #28: Hector B.  on  05/13  at  10:09 PM

Do I have it wrong or did Harry Truman just tell the Joint Chiefs that henceforth the army would be integrated, no ifs ands or buts? Is Obama the Commander-in-Chief or not? Does he believe in gay rights or not? Time to walk the talk, Barack.

Comment #29: Jim Palmer  on  05/13  at  10:11 PM

(I really hope this doesn’t become an orphan thread…please get out of your comfort zones and comment.)....
....Where does that leave us—the black community, the LGBT community, the black LGBT community—in dealing with a President reticent to do much of anything about LGBT issues or homophobia in the black community unless there’s overwhelming support to give him cover?

Well, first of all, while I consider myself an ally (and kin, and friends) with the black community, the LGBT community, and the black LGBT community, I don’t consider myself an actual member of any of these groups. I think it would be presumptuous for me to preach to any of them as such.

Now President Obama is also my President, the one I greatly preferred, and anyway is the President of the United States—of all of us, whether we voted for him or not. I feel he does me a disservice as long as he drags his feet and equivocates on these issues, both because I want a President I can admire on every front, and because I believe homophobia is a threat to everyone.

(Pam quoting a commentator, I guess at Jack and Jill)I watched three parents on Oprah who buried their little boys because of sexual orientation bullying. We have made homosexuality so taboo and disgraceful that these beautiful little boys would rather be dead than be taunted with a gay “slur”. It occurred to me that those of us who have been silent on this issue have somehow fed into this notion and that was devastating.

Indeed. In fact, I think our cultural discourse reverses cause and effect—this sort of terrorism is why homophobia exists in general. It’s a social weapon; insofar as the blows happen to land on actual LGBTAQ etc people that’s almost a byproduct. The real target is all of us—everyone in the world.

I don’t know what to make of the much-discussed mutual recriminations between LGBT etc groups and African-Americans, with people who are both apparently suffering double discrimination from both sides and additional heapings from the so-called “mainstream” as well.

For one thing, I have encountered enough outspoken (as well as subtle) homophobia and racism from white people that I know that it wouldn’t take more than that same proportion of asses in either black or gay groups to give either a bad name and create all sorts of ill will. So I’d like to hope that they aren’t worse—just that the standard is abysmally low all across the board in our society.

For another, it makes sense to me, cynically, that on one hand gay people who aren’t black aren’t automatically guaranteed to become less racist just because they are also victims of social persecution. And I know, and if I had forgotten your own posts, Pam, have reminded me, that outspoken African-American leaders as respectable (to lefty me, anyway) as W.E.B DuBois have denounced gender diversity as a strategic weakness in their struggle for recognition as equals by white society.

There’s a reason “divide and rule” was conventional wisdom for the rulers of stratified societies for many thousands of years—it works. And it makes sense to me that the more militant a movement feels it has to be, the greater the tendency to fall into dominator modes of thinking—that “zero-sum” mentality you also mentioned.

I think the sort of strategic fears DuBois expressed (which may or may not have also been rationalizations of unexamined gender bigotry on his part) can prevail on a deep level in a generally oppressed community. It seems to make sense for all victims to ally with one another and stand together, but all too often mutual betrayal is tempting in the immediate situation, and when someone is drawn to that our many thousands of years of dominator society have provided ideological rationalizations ready to hand. Conservative Christianity being a whole complex of these!

If any of Obama’s waffling and proclaimed perplexity is genuine rather than a (cowardly) bit of political triangulation, then frankly I’m puzzled at his mindset. Assuming as I do that he knows better—that however much for instance he may be a believing Christian, he ought to know that Christianity need not be a barrier to to acceptance and even embrace of gender diversity—I have to face the fact that he isn’t as politically brave as I would wish.

Comment #30: Mark Foxwell  on  05/13  at  10:14 PM

did Harry Truman just tell the Joint Chiefs that henceforth the army would be integrated,

Different situation. Plenty of black people had “openly” served in the military during WW II, only in segregated units or support roles. Integration just meant shuffling around personnel who were already in the military.

Also, DADT was established by statute. Even for a good cause, I don’t want the President to go outside the law. Ultimately Congress is going to have to change it.

Comment #31: Hector B.  on  05/13  at  10:23 PM

Also, DADT was established by statute. Even for a good cause, I don’t want the President to go outside the law. Ultimately Congress is going to have to change it.

You might want to read this:

Obama can stop the discharge of openly gay and lesbian service members now

A snippet:

A new report released today, “How to End ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’: A Roadmap of Political, Legal, Regulatory, and Organizational Steps to Equal Treatment,” sponsored by the Palm Center at the University of California, Santa Barbara, clearly presents a way the President can stop the discriminatory discharge of gay and lesbian service members without Congress passing a law.

...1) Under the law “the President may suspend any provision of law relating to promotion, retirement, or separation applicable to any member of the armed forces who the President determines is essential to the national security of the United States” during a “period of national emergency.”  The statute specifically defines a “national emergency” as a time when “members of a reserve component are serving involuntarily on active duty.”

2) Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell grants to the Defense Department authority to determine the process by which discharges will be carried out, saying they will proceed “under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense… in accordance with procedures set forth in such regulation.”

3) Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell calls for the discharge of service members “if” a finding of homosexuality is made, but it does not require that such a finding ever be made. According to the study, these provisions mean that the Pentagon, not Congress, has the “authority to devise and implement the procedures under which those findings may be made.”

Comment #32: Pam Spaulding  on  05/13  at  10:28 PM

Nancy:  No, not at all.  I was linking President Obama’s deliberate lie (assuming it wasn’t an actual change of his previously stated positions) with Pam’s article in which she expressed disgust that a supposedly closeted politician wasn’t outed, as both being liberal attempts to win at any cost, regardless of the method.

Comment #33: Dana  on  05/13  at  10:33 PM

Jim Palmer wrote:

Do I have it wrong or did Harry Truman just tell the Joint Chiefs that henceforth the army would be integrated, no ifs ands or buts? Is Obama the Commander-in-Chief or not? Does he believe in gay rights or not? Time to walk the talk, Barack.

I’d point out here that Bill Clinton, as a candidate, promised to end the ban on homosexuals serving in the military, and as Commander-in-Chief had the authority to stop enforcement of the relevant sections of the UCMJ, but waffled, coming up with the DA/DT policy, which was eventually codified into law.

When you ask, “Does he believe in gay rights or not?” you have asked too broad a question.  His answers might be to your liking on one issue—DA/DT for example—and not to your liking on others, such as the repeal of DoMA.

Surely no one here is surprised that President Obama is a politician?

Comment #34: Dana  on  05/13  at  10:40 PM

Dana, why are you so boring?

Comment #35: asdf  on  05/13  at  11:15 PM

Surely no one here is surprised that President Obama is a politician?

Nope. We are just surprised that he’s not leading on an issue that should be a no-brainer.

Obama has mentioned being a fan of poker before. If one were to draw conclusions about his poker game from this, it would mean that he rarely bluffs and almost never makes large bets.

Comment #36: Ben F.  on  05/13  at  11:19 PM

Pam,

Cool! He can use the DADT-caused shortage of Arabic speakers as leverage.  That would still not be a permanent solution, but once the sky failed to fall in, Congress would have no reason not to repeal it.

Comment #37: Hector B.  on  05/13  at  11:25 PM

But this the man who he is…  There’s nothing different about this than should be expected and I said so when he was in the primaries.  I said he wasn’t going to change his spots and he’s anit-gay-rights. 

This is the “change” you’re going to get…  Just like the “change” you’re going to get is his continued cover-up of the Bush war crimes.  The continued use of abusive Presidential powers, illegal wiretapping, ignoring the Constitution and, if his track record continues to be an accurate predictor of his spinelessness and sycophancy to corporate/special interests we’re all going to get fucked on a lot of things and continue to fall into the United States of Banana Republic…

Thank god we’re starting to consider emigration.  A few more years of this crap and I’m making a big push for either Europe or Australia because I see America as hopelessly corrupted.  I tell people, look at it.  Our “leaders” routinely commit crimes and, now, human rights atrocities at home and abroad, and not only do they not get served a cold plate of justice, but they get re-elected.  While people who actually believe in the “rule of law” get shunted to the side as “unserious,” “paranoid” and/or “hysterical.”

Fuck that.  One of the advantages of being neurotic is seeing shit for what it is:  shit.  And this country, not exactly a place to be proud of for the most part, still wallows in its delusions.  I for one and fairly damned tired of it.  And, unlike most Americans, I’ve got options.

Comment #38: MosesZD  on  05/13  at  11:51 PM

See ya.

Comment #39: stormhit  on  05/14  at  12:14 AM

for the eight-billionth time!
THAT IS NOT WHAT THE DEFINITION OF MARRIAGE HAS ALWAYS BEEN!!!

go read you fucking holy book. it talks about different marriages RIGHT THERE IN THE BIBLE!

and Orson Scott Card - you are Mormon. you are part of a religious group that did *NOT* follow the “one man one woman” tradition of marriage until they were *FORCED* to by the US government!


ARGH!

/rant

Comment #40: denelian  on  05/14  at  12:17 AM

The level of stupid in the people who object is actually confusing to me…

“Laws against interracial marriage were unjust, because they were created by racist not from any religious belief system”—Does this person actually not know that religion was part of the miscegenation laws?  That many churches at the time taught that black people were the children of Ham, and therefore meant to serve, and therefore intermarriage would reduce mixed descendants to servility? Then there’s the way the story of the Tower of Babylon was used to support ‘seperateness’. Was the writer of that line a black person or a white, because I would think that oppressed peoples would be more likely to know the history of oppression.

As for people wanting to NEVER have a conversation with their kids about gays, either they plan to raise them under house arrest, or they realize their children will get all the information they can imagine from their playground friends—if not by direct experience from their parents’ spiritual leader.

Comment #41: Samantha Vimes  on  05/14  at  01:06 AM

Ben F wrote:

Surely no one here is surprised that President Obama is a politician? (me)

Nope. We are just surprised that he’s not leading on an issue that should be a no-brainer.

Which one, because there is more than one issue under discussion in this thread.  If you’re talking about DA/DT, it might seem simple, but the issue seemed simple to candidate Bill Clinton in 1992, and turned out not to be so simple once he got into office.  If you are talking about same-sex marriage, the fact remains that the voters in California, probably our most liberal state, and a state which gave him a 61%-39% margin over John McCain, passed Proposition 8 by a significant margin in the same election, and a significant part of the margin for P-8 came from minority voters.  For a politician, the “no brainer” answer on same-sex marriage is to do exactly what President Obama has done, which is nothing.

And look, the guy has been in office for less than four months.  Even if you think that he’ll eventually see things the way you want him so see them, his plate is rather full, and he can’t do everything at once.

Comment #42: Dana  on  05/14  at  07:39 AM

MosesZD:  Well, we heard the same stuff from Alec Baldwin, threatening to leave if George Bush was elected; Mr Baldwin, who also had wealth and “options,” decided to stay here for the entire eight years of the Bush Administration.

You are perfectly free to go; no one is stopping you.  Please, write us from New Zealand when you gat there; I’d like to know someone who made such a “threat” and then actually carried it out.

Comment #43: Dana  on  05/14  at  07:44 AM

And look, the guy has been in office for less than four months.  Even if you think that he’ll eventually see things the way you want him so see them, his plate is rather full, and he can’t do everything at once.

Excuse me, but it doesn’t require a commission or study to issue a statement other than “no comment” about marriage equality in Vermont. You fail to see that the President is purposely avoiding even discussing these issues since taking office. It doesn’t require a lot of time or effort to say something about homophobia in the black community and the impact of religious bigotry. FAIL.

Comment #44: Pam Spaulding  on  05/14  at  08:40 AM

Laws against interracial marriage were unjust, because they were created by racist not from any religious belief system so stop comparing the two please.

Sadly, interracial marriages were banned because of religious beliefs.  There are still a lot of people who think it goes against their religious beliefs, and they are still free to marry someone of their own race.  Likewise, anyone who thinks gay marriage goes against their religious beliefs is still completely free to marry a person of the other sex.

Comment #45: bananacat  on  05/14  at  10:30 AM

Caren didn’t say that religion should be outlawed, only that it has no place in a civilized society which is an OPINION. Honestly, I feel the same way, since I am failing to see any positives the superstitious sky-daddy beliefs bring anyone beyond a personal level, and lots of nasty things they can cause on a societal level. Laws based on religion definitely have no place in a civilized society, which is why the Framers were so insistent that there be no state religion to push down the throats of the people and took care to note things like, “In no way is the United States based upon the Christian religion…”

Comment #46: TheRealistMom  on  05/14  at  10:42 AM

You’d think they could just, y’know, enforce laws against rape. You know, sexual assault gets you a dishonorable discharge and a decade or two in Leavenworth. I’d think it would be good for morale knowing that no one is going to get away with victimizing you in any way.

I suspect that a main reason why gay people are not allowed to serve openly in the military is exactly because rape laws are not enforced.  There are some straight men (obviously not all of them) who like it that they can get away with rape, but they don’t want to be other side of it.  If rape laws were strictly enforced, then openly gay people serving wouldn’t be a problem.  This is another example of how homophobia is so closely tied to misogyny.

Comment #47: bananacat  on  05/14  at  10:48 AM

Laws based on religion definitely have no place in a civilized society

For many people, their religion is entwined with their ethics and their morals to the point where they can’t tell the difference. These folks feel illogically that removing the religious basis of law would eliminate laws against robbery, rape, and murder as well.

How to persuade/educate them?

Comment #48: Hector B.  on  05/14  at  11:49 AM

“How to persuade/educate them?”

have them read a fucking book other than the bible.

Comment #49: Mark  on  05/14  at  12:11 PM

How to persuade/educate them?

Explain to them that laws prohibiting robbery, rape, and murder are based on mutual respect and care for other humans, rather than on the threat of punishment in the afterlife.  You could also inform them that the Bible is pretty lenient on punishment for rape, and most people wouldn’t want the Bible to dictate our laws for that.

Comment #50: bananacat  on  05/14  at  12:21 PM

Obama doesn’t want to lose support by throwing his weight behind what I’m sure his advisers call, fringe issues.

As much as people deify the man, we elected a politician and this is how politicians work. Until enough people make enough noise, he’s going to dither on the matter. It’s the system we/he agree on, that the voice of the people will be heard but only matter when it is backed up by (1)enough votes or (2)force.

Comment #51: The New Anarchist  on  05/14  at  12:30 PM

Caren has made a stupid, stupid statement. This was the first concern of the framers of the Constitution.
Religious freedom is the most precious of rights.

Franklin Raines

Frankie’s reading comprehension reaches new lows.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;
Thus separating rule of law and civil government from “rules” established by what ever crazy person du jure is putting words into the mouth of the invisible sky fairie.

Our fractured communities are so easily be played against one another

This is as reflexive to The Powers That Be as grabbing power.  It keeps “races” separated so they don’t realize it’s the upper class crushing the lower and middle class.  It keeps AA and Hispanics fighting each other rather then working together with people lacking pigment.
They can easily grab some antidotal tales and echo chamber it until it becomes “common knowledge.”
The “Blacks hate Gays” is nothing more than a facet of “Blacks are just as prejudice as Whites.”  And the “reverse discrimination” bobble heads that rail against affirmative action.

Comment #52: cynickal  on  05/14  at  02:52 PM

Why President Obama hurts his own cause of addressing homophobia in the black community

This is a really dumb entry. Obama has no such “cause”. Obama can’t so anything about homophobia in any community.  He’s the President of the United States of America.

State & local leaders, members of Congress & the Senate, people who inititiate change via the legal system can change THE LAWS…and then public sentiment will gradually follow.

That is how things work.

Shit - There are people who still don’t agree that White people & Black people should be permitted to marry & it’s been years since Loving -v- Virginia! Whne the last person changes their mind on this, then we’ll probably see some social shift in opinion about Adam & Steve getting married.

Comment #53: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/14  at  02:57 PM

It was of the utmost concern and a most precious right they wished to preserve.

Which also meant “everyone does it in their own home in whatever way they see fit, while the law shows no preferential treatment regardless of how popular a given cult is”

Comment #54: karpad  on  05/14  at  03:55 PM

I knew he wasn’t the progressive his supporters hoped he could be but it still hurts because I wanted to believe he was All That.  On this and a whole bunch of other issues he has settled for doing baby steps, Establishment-approved actions instead of The Right Thing.  The economy?  Should have gone Sweden on the banks.  Instead, we have half-assed measures that don’t restore credit but DO protect the stockholders’ interests.  Feh.

Comment #55: Zil  on  05/14  at  04:08 PM

Shit - There are people who still don’t agree that White people & Black people should be permitted to marry & it’s been years since Loving -v- Virginia! Whne the last person changes their mind on this, then we’ll probably see some social shift in opinion

As though one naturally has to wait for the other.

about Adam & Steve getting married.

Still a homophobe yourself, eh Uhura? Color me surprised.

Comment #56: asdf  on  05/14  at  04:22 PM

There are people who still don’t agree that White people & Black people should be permitted to marry & it’s been years since Loving -v- Virginia! Whne the last person changes their mind on this, then we’ll probably see some social shift in opinion about Adam & Steve getting married.

Shorter Uhura: I’ll stop being a homobigot when there stop being racists. because two wrongs make a right.

Comment #57: karpad  on  05/14  at  05:25 PM

A good first step might be to make marriages and civil unions identical in terms of rights and privileges. the term marriage is a religious one, which is why the religious zeal-i mean, people, are pissed off about the whole gay marriage thing. when a couple is married at the court house by a judge (who is a civil servant) it is technically a civil union. the marriage label is tacked on because of how thoroughly religion has permeated our culture and legal system. by making the two identical, it simply becomes a case of semantics.
Anyway, I always thought god/jehova/alla etc. wanted humanity to bear spiritual fruits, not religious nuts.

Comment #58: The Gray Train  on  05/14  at  05:50 PM

It was of the utmost concern and a most precious right they wished to preserve.

Franklin Raines

Once again reading comprehension fails Frankie.
the free exercise thereof   does not equal legislate religious inequalities creating a second subserviant class lacking in any or all rights enshrined in the Constitution or the amendments.

You’re free to be a bigot all you want, Frankie.
You just can’t pass laws enforcing that bigotry.

Comment #59: cynickal  on  05/14  at  05:58 PM

Gray, that’s an excellent point.

I think that making CU’s identical to marriage will quiet the religious based opposition while creating an entryway for the general public to begin the mental shift.

Comment #60: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/14  at  05:58 PM

There are people who still don’t agree that White people & Black people should be permitted to marry & it’s been years since Loving -v- Virginia! Whne the last person changes their mind on this, then we’ll probably see some social shift in opinion about Adam & Steve getting married.

Shorter Uhura: I’ll stop being a homobigot when there stop being racists. because two wrongs make a right.

Uhura overstates the case, but is she a homobigot? Society’s had a lot longer to get used to the idea of interracial marriage, which goes back to, what, King Solomon? While same-sex marriage only goes back to 2001. Even so, the number of people in the US supporting same-sex marriage is reaching critical mass.

Comment #61: Hector B.  on  05/14  at  06:19 PM

Left handers are also deviates from the societal norm.

Let’s be clear. The left-handed lifestyle is neither a healthy one nor a particularly long one. Studies vary but the average is about 2 years less longevity. “Southpaws” are much more likely to die in accidents or during warfare. There is little positive about being left-handed.

“Mainstreaming” the lefthand lifestyle affects others. It gives children a distorted perspective of normal handedness, and encourages deviate penmanship.

Comment #62: Hector B.  on  05/14  at  06:24 PM

the term marriage is a religious one,

No, it isn’t. Not in practice, not historically, not even etymologically.

I think that making CU’s identical to marriage will quiet the religious based opposition

You’re wrong. The religious right hate gay people, not gay marriage. They do not object to the word “marriage” being applied to gay relationships. They object to any rights whatsoever being granted to gay relationships.

That’s why they pass laws like this: http://www.legislature.state.oh.us/constitution.cfm?Part=15&Section=11

“Only a union between one man and one woman may be a marriage valid in or recognized by this state and its political subdivisions. This state and its political subdivisions shall not create or recognize a legal status for relationships of unmarried individuals that intends to approximate the design, qualities, significance or effect of marriage.”

They are exactly as hateful about civil unions as they are about marriage. They ban both whenever they get the chance.

Comment #63: asdf  on  05/14  at  07:42 PM

Haven’t we seen this comment before?

Frankie:
1. Cite a reliable source, please.
2.

high risk for suicide and clinical depression.

Hmm, could anyone possible guess why?
3.

1) Homosexuals are not politically powerless
2) Homosexuals are not economically oppressed
3) Homosexuality is not based upon an immutable characteristic

Just like Christians, who are not politically powerless, economically oppressed, or immutable, and don’t receive the equal protection of the laws. Oh, wait.

Comment #64: Rebecca  on  05/14  at  08:37 PM

Let me guess, Frankie is going to trot out those thoroughly debunked studies that claim all gay people die of bowel problems or some shit, pun intended? I think there’s a reason like him are focused on assholes, mostly because they see one in the mirror every day.

Comment #65: TheRealistMom  on  05/14  at  08:53 PM

Adding- did he SERIOUSLY just post something from WoldNutDaily as a source?!

Comment #66: TheRealistMom  on  05/14  at  08:54 PM

You are perfectly free to go; no one is stopping you.  Please, write us from New Zealand when you gat there; I’d like to know someone who made such a “threat” and then actually carried it out.

I actually did move to Canada during the Bush administration, but I am a Canadian Citizen so it would have been more work to stay in the US than to move back home smile

I honestly do think that having Barack Obama take a stance to be supportive of the LGBT community would have a positive impact not only among the black community and the black LGBT but across the “minority” spectrum.  The black community has gotten a lot of flack for the results of the Prop 8 vote, but it would be remiss to not realize that many communities especially among the first and second generation immigrants are just as hard-lined (in many cases more so) against the LGBT gaining rights.

Of course I’m not suggesting that if Obama does support the LGBT everything will be okey dokey tomorrow but just that level of acceptance can definitely make a big difference in the life of someone who is just coming of age, or going through puberty wondering why they aren’t being attracted to the gender they thought they were supposed to be attracted to. It will go towards building a society of acceptance, slowly, but surely; as legislation can only allow you to marry, it doesn’t include safety and freedom from harassment.

It’s not just the President either though, we need more prominent people of all communities who believe in marriage equality to speak up.  And if this President truly does believe in equality, to remain silent and put off removing DADT legislation only acts as an encouragement for others to keep their silence as well.

Comment #67: hypatia  on  05/14  at  09:03 PM

Let’s be clear. The male lifestyle is neither a healthy one nor a particularly long one. Studies vary but the average is about 7 years less longevity. Males are much more likely to contract a life threatening disease, are at four times the risk for suicide and five times the risk for alcoholism.  Men also commit four times the partner abuse and other forms of violence. There is little positive about being male.

Comment #68: oldfeminist  on  05/14  at  09:29 PM

Franklin Raines, open-minded doesn’t mean we think bigotry, sexism, racism or other forms of prejudice are “just as good” as tolerance.

Tolerance of intolerance is not tolerance.

Comment #69: oldfeminist  on  05/14  at  09:30 PM

Society’s had a lot longer to get used to the idea of interracial marriage, which goes back to, what, King Solomon? While same-sex marriage only goes back to 2001. Even so, the number of people in the US supporting same-sex marriage is reaching critical mass.

Hector, you’re mistaken. Most people in the USA still oppose same sex marriage.

Comment #70: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/14  at  09:46 PM

Ugh..Another thread which focuses on Frankie.

Comment #71: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/14  at  09:47 PM

If you can’t handle a difference of opinion, then you need to take a look in the mirror next time you call yourselves open-minded.

We are open minded. We saw what you had to offer, noted it as the same as previous offerings that proved to be very very bad, and categorized them as such.

Open minded is not like Buddhist No-Mind. We learn after a single time that when the dial on the stove is horizontal, it means it is on and not to place our hand on it. In fact, we don’t even have to put our hand on it, once we get close, feel it’s warm, we don’t have to keep pressing our hand down until we verify the surface is blistering hot and not just surrounded by heat and the surface is cool to the touch and kind tickles.

We’ve seen your bigotry before. It had disgusting implications and inflicted horrific damage on society before. We don’t have to give you a second chance to do the exact same thing and fuck up everything.

Comment #72: karpad  on  05/14  at  09:49 PM

Hector, you’re mistaken. Most people in the USA still oppose same sex marriage.

But most people do support some form of recognition for same-sex relationships.  And the significant minority that supports same-sex marriage is growing every day; Hector did say “reaching”.

Comment #73: Seraph  on  05/14  at  11:33 PM

“Ugh…Another thread which focuses on Frankie.”

I know, right? raspberry I’m tired of Raines’ issues. If he doesn’t like the fact that we disapprove of his viewpoints, he can always, ya know, stop commenting and read something else.* It’s not like it’s illegal for two fundies with the same opinions to visit each other’s websites, even though it’s so…well…wrong. I mean, yuck - imagine all the children doing that right now, being taught to believe that fundamentalism and bigotry are somehow normal!

*Hint, hint.

Comment #74: Zef  on  05/15  at  02:16 AM

I don’t think any “faggot” would want to be as miserable as you, Miein.

Comment #75: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/18  at  05:36 PM
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