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Next entry: Occam’s Razor sez that it’s because men come first Previous entry: Friday Genius Ten “Should Have Stayed In Bed” Edition

Why Rand Paul matters

We’re already getting the world-weary sighing about how we need to move on from the Rand Paul thing—-and don’t worry, it’s the weekend and we will—-but I do feel the obsession over it that sprouted up needs a defender.  Rachel Maddow did an excellent job on this front.

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But I’d also like to take the time to talk about Rand Paul, teabaggers, and why libertarianism matters despite being unbelievably childish as a philosophy.  I think a lot of media people tend to think of libertarians mostly as a tiny minority of overprivileged twits who are relatively harmless with the power fantasies of what unbelievable sci-fi badasses they would be if the government just got rid of OSHA.  But the folks who write for Reason and work for the Cato Institute aren’t really representative of libertarianism as it actually exists in most of the U.S. Because self-identified libertarians are a tiny minority doesn’t mean that libertarian thought doesn’t enjoy widespread popularity amongst conservative Republicans.  Indeed, libertarianism is the primary intellectual justification in this country for resistance to most social justice movements.  (I use the term “intellectual” loosely here, but you know what I mean.)  It is also the primary intellectual justification for unchecked corporate power that leads to disasters like our collapsed economy and the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico.  And I would argue that the existence of the Republican party today depends largely on people who are invested in the latter exploiting people invested in the former for support and votes.  And that’s why libertarianism is extremely fucked up and concern about it isn’t a distraction.  Most people who spout libertarian arguments are self-identified Republicans, and most of them have extremely conservative views on race and gender.

I thought I’d break down my examination into some major points.

Values

One of the unfortunately unquestioned aspects of the argument that folks Paul aren’t racists so much as strict ideologues is it buys into the assumption that the ideologies we support and values we hold just exist, as if they were assigned to us randomly at birth.  This doesn’t actually comport well with reality.  Most people’s values derive from their ideas of what the world should be like.  A common exercise with activists in trying to get them to clarify what their values are and how to fight for them is to have them picture the world they want.  What they picture can be used to figure out what they value.  (For instance, I picture a world where people are unrestrained by prejudice to live full and meaningful lives.) Therefore, if their values just so happen to create a world marked by racial segregation and most wealth being held in the hands of the few, and most of the people who benefit from these values are people who look like those who hold them, then it’s a safe assumption that they chose their values to achieve these ends. 

Which isn’t to say that people can’t make mistakes, or incorrectly think that value X will lead to result Y.  However, when presented with historical evidence that their assumptions—-in this case that free enterprise would automatically desegregate—-are incorrect, if they persist in arguing otherwise, they are being willfully ignorant. 

The commerce clause


It strikes me as highly unlikely that many average white Americans suddenly discovered they favored a very narrow reading of the commerce clause in the mid-to-late 60s just because there was something in the drinking water that woke them up.  Indeed, I think most people who are modern citizens of the post-industrial age would be grateful that the Founding Fathers had the foresight to give the federal government power to regulate business, because most of us enjoy having clean air and food and seatbelts that work.  We would wisely realize that business should be regulated by the people in exchange for our willingness to allow business to prosper off the people.  We would suggest that a business that is unwilling to play by the rules of polite society that individuals are subject to shouldn’t have the right to exist.  This would be such obvious common sense to your average citizen that they probably wouldn’t even be aware of the commerce clause, because regulating business would seem like such a logical outgrowth of government, much in the way we regard the Post Office or the mint.

The only people who would be motivated in any way to concoct wild theories about how the commerce clause doesn’t actually give the government power to regulate business would be those who want to make money without having to act like good neighbors, i.e. big corporations. 

However, a lot of average white people did and still do believe that they should be able to keep other people who aren’t white from using the same spaces as them, living next door to them, or having the same access to jobs and education and health care.  And they have to be forced by the federal government not to gang up on non-white people to deprive them of equal access.  The power that the federal government used to stop them is the very same power that the federal government uses to regulate businesses on their labor and environmental standards.  And because of this, a lot of people who otherwise would think the commerce clause is just common sense are highly motivated to believe arguments in favor of a more narrow reading. Libertarians are the ones who exploit this motivation.  But it is, for the people who buy their philosophy, a self-destructive thing.  To echo Thomas Frank: Buy into the belief that you can keep black people out of your public bathroom, sign on to allowing BP to turn your coastline into pure oil and dead birds.  Buy into keeping black people from buying in your neighborhood, sign on to economic collapse when big finance creates a housing bubble with shady accounting.  Buy into allowing your workplace to discriminate in its hiring practices, sign on to having a dangerous and dirty workplace without any recourse.

Public vs. private

“But we’re not racist,” claim libertarians like Rand Paul.  “We want public accommodations to be discrimination-free!”  But as Marc pointed out to me as we were discussing this last night, they also want an end to most public accommodations.  (Most libertarians will carefully sign on to the taxpayers being on the hook to protect their private property, though.  Fire departments and police departments that can be used to protect private property, as well as all government functions that make capitalism more profitable are a-okay. It’s just the stuff that exists for to make life better for everyone regardless of property status that is objectionable.)  Schools, public transportation, parks—-all those things that they sign on to desegregating legally they then object to existing.  If you desegregate something that doesn’t exist, does it really count as desegregation?  If the only places that you make handicap-accessible are public places that don’t exist, is it really making it easier for them to get around?  If the only jobs that don’t allow sexual harassment are government jobs that don’t exist, can anyone really choose those jobs?

This isn’t an abstract question.  As I noted before, libertarianism as a popular philosophy enjoyed by people outside a few elites really took off in response to movements like the civil rights movement and other social justice movements. The enthusiasm for privatizing really began when public schools, which weren’t especially controversial before, were forced to desegregate.  For instance, there was a huge rash of private schools that opened in the wake of Brown v. the Board of Education and luminaries like Jerry Falwell really rose to prominence defending segregation under this right to private property.  You still hear echoes of this attitude in the usual libertarian hang-ups, particularly regarding the scorn for public transportation that is shared with the mass of humanity.  And, of course, in other right wing hang-ups like homeschooling and voucher systems aimed at defunded the hated-after-Brown public school system.

Freedom

As I noted extensively in comments, the real world reality of libertarianism is that whenever there is a clash between the desires of the oppressed and the oppressors, libertarians side with the oppressors and call this “freedom”.  They do this so often that I think many liberals don’t stop to think about how this really narrows our conception of what freedom really is.  Libertarians take it as a matter of faith, for instance, that a white man’s unwillingness to sell a house to a black family is “freedom”, but the right of a black family to live where they wish isn’t freedom. 

Liberals need to loudly and repeatedly lay claim to our broad, justice-oriented view of freedom.  Freedom is the right to move about freely, instead of constantly run up against restrictions put upon you because of the color of your skin or the fact that you have to use a wheelchair to get around.  Freedom is the right to take a job you wish without being run out of it because your coworkers will harass you to death because they don’t want to work with a woman.  Freedom is being able to live where you want, instead of running against a wall of people that aren’t willing to sell or rent a home to a person like you.  Freedom is something that belongs to all people, not just to those who have the money and social power to enforce their will on others.  The government’s job is to protect freedom, and that means that it is the government’s job to restrict those who would use libertarianism as an excuse to deprive their neighbors of the right to live their lives freely, and to pursue happiness in a land of genuine equality.

I realize that for a lot of people, especially some genuinely great but very privileged white liberal dudes, the constant refighting of the 60s is tiresome.  I really get it.  I don’t like it either.  But if we opt out, we concede to the people who are basically still fighting it, even if they’ve come up with clever pseudo-intellectual justifications for their point of view.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 04:25 PM • (113) Comments

“a tiny minority of overprivileged twits who are relatively harmless with the power fantasies of what unbelievable sci-fi badasses they would be if the government just got rid of OSHA.”

Fucking R O F L

Comment #1: Zed  on  05/21  at  06:20 PM

Actually, just before arriving at Pandagon today, I called Rand Paul the “gift that keeps on giving” to liberal blogs—every so often, a politician rises who can’t stop sticking his foot in his mouth and trying to swallow, and Rand looks to be one of them. I was referring to his objectively pro-oil-spill comments, but his badly thought out libertarianism gives you a good reason for a serious dissection of outcomes like you just did.

Comment #2: Samantha Vimes  on  05/21  at  06:21 PM

Rand has now backed out of his Sunday interview on Meet the Press:  “He’s canceled, citing “exhaustion.” He’s only the third major guest in the show’s 62-year history to do so.”
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/5/21/868676/-KY-Sen:-Rand-Paul-squirms-out-of-Meet-the-Press-interview

Wot a shame, we won’t have Rand Paul to kick around anymore.

It was unlikely he’d have won the general, but in his short time in the spotlight Rand has been a gift, besmirching while revealing both libertarian and Republican thought.

Alas, Rand we knew you too little.

Comment #3: judybrowni  on  05/21  at  06:32 PM

Really, this isn’t just re-fighting the 60s, but very relevant today. White people still make like 1.62 times what black people do on average. While 1/4 of white households are worth $0, 2/3s of black households are worth $0. The average white household is worth 12 times that of the average black household. Most schools and metropolitan areas are de facto segregated. The prevalence of libertarian ideology in the US means that we cannot and should not redress these injustices. We aren’t just arguing over the past; institutional and other forms of racism are still alive and well. The injustices of the past have significantly molded our present. This is something we should be talking about in the present tense.

Comment #4: alysia  on  05/21  at  06:34 PM

The reason we have to keep re-fighting the ‘60s is because American’s are crap at history. 

And the fact that the fight was never really won.

Comment #5: Eric_RoM  on  05/21  at  06:42 PM

Thank you so much, Amanda. I’ve been having conversations with a friend who can’t figure out why I get so worked up about Libertarians. This explains it better than I can for myself. In past conversations it has been difficult not to get hysterical in the face of the not-so-hidden agenda of the Libertarians. I’m forwarding this to all my friends.

Comment #6: LCforevah  on  05/21  at  06:42 PM

Libertarians and Objectivists usually remind me of of people who are really into the Gor books. There’s the same level of delusion about how the world actually works, the same deeply ugly motivations at the base of it and the same need to coat their ugly prejudices and desires in the language of universal moral truths. The parallel suggests that scorn derision and mockery and isolation from any decent company may actually be the best way to approach the issue.

Comment #7: Grimgrin  on  05/21  at  06:43 PM

And as Benjamin Jealous noted, straight up discrimination is hardly a thing of the past, either.  He noted the swimming pool thing keeps coming up every year, and also how gay people are openly shoved out of some jobs and public accommodations, and certainly housing discrimination continues to be a massive issue.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/21  at  06:43 PM

The following article at The Exiled Online: “ATLAS SHRIEKED: Ayn Rand’s First Love and Mentor Was A Sadistic Serial Killer Who Dismembered Little Girls”, is the gruesome, repulsive and true story of how Ayn Rand idolized the serial killer William Edward Hickman. It’s not easy to read and may give you nightmares, but I think it helps to understand where Rand was really coming from as a philosopher and writer.

Comment #9: atheist  on  05/21  at  06:49 PM

“We’re already getting the world-weary sighing about how we need to move on from the Rand Paul thing[.]”

I’ve definitely seen a lot of that weird thing reporters do when they’re uncomfortable reporting on something, when they report on the reporting: “How crazy is it that all these stories are being written about Rand Paul?”  I’m sure it has something to do with how calling someone a racist isn’t P.C. (as in, isn’t P.C. from the republican point of view, but I guess might not feel P.C. from the liberal point of view either because it means pointing out that in terms of the different ways different people are treated, there are more races than just the “human race”).  But I am kind of impressed that with respect to this story institutionalized racism is actually being reported on to a certain extent.  Usually when racial code words (e.g. “socialist”) and winking references to the Jim Crow era are tossed around, the media doesn’t investigate further.  Score one for Rachel Maddow.

Comment #10: ryang  on  05/21  at  07:02 PM

omg thank you for this post!  it’s so frustrating to argue with one of these (always privileged, white and almost always male) libertarian fuckwits who tries to argue that like, they have to stick with the ideology….well BECAUSE, regardless of its actual results on populations of people who are not say, white, well-to-do or male or whatever. like it’s some cosmic law that in order to buy into one set of beliefs, one must stick one’s fingers in one’s ears at how those fancy theories actually impact actual human beings.

Comment #11: chareth cutestory  on  05/21  at  07:04 PM

I still think the strongest argument against Rand Paul’s CRA objections (which also translates to libertarianism in general) is: We tried that. It was the American South between the Civil War and the Civil Rights Act (and afterward, but that’s another story). Anyone was free to open a lunch counter that didn’t discriminate. They didn’t. Do. It.

And according to Rand Paul’s beliefs, that means that, even though he might be against racism, segregation was OK in those areas, for those areas.

Libertarians try to make it sound like they’re explaining some complicated philosophy that hasn’t been tried before (or, alternately, a very simple philosophy that you’re too dense to understand). But they’re not. We tried it their way. It didn’t work. You could look it up.

Comment #12: RickMassimo  on  05/21  at  07:08 PM

omg thank you for this post!  it’s so frustrating to argue with one of these (always privileged, white and almost always male) libertarian fuckwits who tries to argue that like, they have to stick with the ideology….well BECAUSE, regardless of its actual results on populations of people who are not say, white, well-to-do or male or whatever. like it’s some cosmic law that in order to buy into one set of beliefs, one must stick one’s fingers in one’s ears at how those fancy theories actually impact actual human beings.

Bingo. Republicans are models of intellectual flexibility and pragmatism compared to full-on libertarians. Libertarians never give any real-world names, places and eras where anything even approaching libertarianism worked. Because they can’t. Because the very few times that anyone’s tried anything even resembling what they want, it’s been an utter failure. The whole “philosophy” is straight out of a 2 am dorm-room conversation, as Jon Kyl (!) described Paul’s ideas, and the idea that a major-party candidate for the Senate thinks this way is an embarrassment mostly for the GOP but really for the whole country.

Comment #13: RickMassimo  on  05/21  at  07:12 PM

@atheist:  Ayn Rand, like some of the popular interpretation of Nietzsche* one sees everywhere, seems to say that 1) Society is a grand illusion, a phantasm, whose chains are only in the mind; 2) That it is possible to transcend said mental chains, burst them asunder, and realize they don’t really obtain to oneself; and that 3) Anyone who actually does this remakes the rules of society and is thereby too strong for society to correct.

I don’t know why these persons discard the notion that, though they start as mental constructs, the mores of society are very often codified into law, and the people charged with upholding that law are just as often empowered to injure the prospects of or outright terminate these Nietzschean supermen. Perhaps they persuade themselves that the totality of the laws are unjust because the laws tell them they can’t be Nietzschean supermen.

*I have not actually read any Nietzsche and therefore I am unqualified to discern what he actually said from what his screaming fans think he said.

Comment #14: Falconer  on  05/21  at  07:26 PM

“Might makes right” - libertarianism in a nutshell.

This ideology falsely promotes the mythological narrative that everybody gets to start on basically equal footing, something which has NEVER been true in all of human history.  But even if it were true or could be true - even if we could create a world where all people begin their lives with equal footing - libertarianism would still ultimately ruin the utopian equality society, because libertarians are driven principally by one of the ugliest of human characteristics - greed.  And when a system exists that consistly allows the greediest among us to receive the greatest rewards, the world becomes a worse place.

I find it funny how many devotees of Ayn Rand suggest that government social programs could easily be replaced by the benevolence of wealthy people voluntarily donating to charitable causes… an idea that Rand considered antithetical to her objectivist philosophy.  Not only was Rand opposed to any form of government assistance for the less fortunate, she was also adamantly opposed to voluntary charitable donations to the less fortunate.  She believed that philanthropic donors deserved to be scorned for their charity, not praised for it.

Basically, the deep-rooted thinking of a libertarian is that if you are rich, it’s because you deserve to be rich, even if your wealth was 100% the result of an inheritance.  And if you are poor, it’s because you deserve to be poor.  Poor people don’t deserve to get ahead in life until they can learn to “pull themselves up by the bootstraps” - a tired cliche describing an act that is physically impossible.

Comment #15: DTG in STL  on  05/21  at  07:27 PM

Hey, not only is Rand one of three major guests to cancel on MTP, looka the company he keeps: “join(ing) just Louis Farrakhan and Prince Bandar as “Meet the Press” guest canceling last minute.”

http://mydd.com/2010/5/21/rand-paul-trying-to-back-out-of-meet-the-press#comments

The Odd Trio.

Comment #16: judybrowni  on  05/21  at  07:31 PM

Ultimately what these discussions come down to is if you believe that people voting for elected representatives who act in their name is a better way to govern then letting a supposedly free market allow opposing interests to compete on the basis of money.  You have many people on both sides of this issue (although those on the side of the market would not express their viewpoint in terms of government that is, in effect, what they are advocating for).

Unfortunately what you also have is a very small minority of very wealthy and powerful people who spend an extraordinary amount of time and effort putting out propaganda and covering up failures in order to convince people that the market is the best way of doing things.  These people don’t have any real beliefs one way or the other, they just want to gain as much money and power as possible and will lie, cheat, steal and kill in order to get it.

Comment #17: Archimedes  on  05/21  at  07:36 PM

Libertarians try to make it sound like they’re explaining some complicated philosophy that hasn’t been tried before (or, alternately, a very simple philosophy that you’re too dense to understand). But they’re not. We tried it their way. It didn’t work. You could look it up.

Yup.  I once had an interesting debate with a self-proclaimed libertarian about civil rights laws, and his question was, “OK, you obviously think we still need these silly laws, but what will it take for you to believe we’ve reached the point where we can do away with Affirmative Action and such things?”

My response was, “I think it will be time to do away with programs like Affirmative Action when you and everybody who thinks like you is dead and buried.  As long as people like you continue to exist, we need programs like Affirmative Action in place to protect oppressed groups from you and your racist friends.”

Or to put it more simply - we can get rid of Affirmative Action on the very first day that not one person in the world is trying to get rid of Affirmative Action.

Comment #18: DTG in STL  on  05/21  at  07:42 PM

In some documentary I saw not long ago (“Capitalism: A Love Story”, perhaps?), a corporate talking head of some kind said that if democracy and capitalism are in opposition on an issue, then capitalism should prevail.

I cannot count the number of times I’ve said, “Capitalism is an economic system; democracy is a governmental system; they’re not the same thing”, only to get a blank stare or argument from someone who doesn’t see that the two might be in conflict.  Democracy is to be in service of capitalism, don’t ya know?

While we all know that money has enormous power in our democracy (republic, really), the day we quit giving even lip service to the ideals of democracy is the day the country is truly in ruins.

Comment #19: NobleExperiments  on  05/21  at  07:47 PM

#14

@atheist:  Ayn Rand, like some of the popular interpretation of Nietzsche* one sees everywhere, seems to say that 1) Society is a grand illusion, a phantasm, whose chains are only in the mind; 2) That it is possible to transcend said mental chains, burst them asunder, and realize they don’t really obtain to oneself; and that 3) Anyone who actually does this remakes the rules of society and is thereby too strong for society to correct.

Falconer, I think that what you said is absolutely correct. I have read some of Nietzsche’s books and read a bit of Rand as well, and I know a fair amount about libertarians. It was seemed to me for some time that Objectivism/Libertarianism is just a dumber form of Nietzschean philosophy.

The evil motherfucker Nietzsche specifically argues against morality. His concern seems to be to create a “superman” (yes, he was a total sexist), an “artist-tyrant” who is beyond morality, to be a kind of savior for humanity. And from Nietzsche’s point of view, if he has to enslave or destroy thousands of other people to get there, its totally worth it.

Rand basically seems like a dimmer version of Nietzsche. She sorta seems to have a “superman” obsession as well, with the heroes in her novels like John Galt who are immoral, artistic/tyrannical saviors of the same type. Where Nietzsche would straightforwardly say that you have to oppress people, Rand tries to confuse the issue, and argue that nobody is really oppressed because all people who lose bring it on themselves, or some similar horseshit.

And so, after reading Nietzsche, I feel like I’m on to the Objectivists and Libertarians. They think they are the supermen, or at least maybe The Elect, and everyone else is just a parasite who will burn after they withdraw their special Electness from society. But they can never be straightforward about it, because they are always caught up in Ayn Rand’s pointless attempts to take evil and say its not evil. So they don’t seem to ever face reality, except for the ones who have decided to stop screwing around and just be evil.

Comment #20: atheist  on  05/21  at  08:05 PM

Anyone was free to open a lunch counter that didn’t discriminate. They didn’t. Do. It.

Some people did.  They were promptly run out of town by their neighbors, and probably prosecuted for breaking the law against having desegregated lunch counters if they tried to persist.

That’s an important part of the point:  it didn’t matter if one white guy in the town wanted to use his private property to serve black and white people equally, because it was not only illegal for him to do it, he would be harassed by the rest of the white people in the town until he closed down.  In other words, he couldn’t do what he wanted with his private property if the more powerful people in town wanted to shut him down.

Rand Paul is in favor of allowing white people to get together and harass someone they don’t agree with, but he thinks that black/handicapped/gay people should not have the same right.  In fact, he thinks that if black/handicapped/gay people try to exercise the same right to harass a private property owner that white people have, they should be arrested.

As I said in the other thread, I don’t really give a shit if Rand Paul is racist in his heart.  I don’t care about his personal feelings or how many black friends he has.  What I care about is that he wants to use the law to privilege powerful people over powerless people and make property rights more important than the rights of citizens.

Comment #21: Mnemosyne  on  05/21  at  08:10 PM

Paul’s opponent, Jack Conway, is making good use of this whole episode btw. He said Paul has an “empathy gap” and a “cold” worldview, which is a good way of putting it. Or, as is said on here alot, a libertarian is someone who says “I’ve got mine, fuck you!”

What’s really going to destroy Paul in Kentucky though is his idiotic comment about the coal mine disasters and his opposition to the Department of Agriculture. The col miners and tobacco farmers may not like “welfare queens” or “waste”, but they sure want THEIR subsidies and THEIR safety regulations, that Paul wants to scrap.

Comment #22: Ben D.  on  05/21  at  08:12 PM

What’s really going to destroy Paul in Kentucky though is his idiotic comment about the coal mine disasters and his opposition to the Department of Agriculture.

Hell yeah, great to hear!

Paul’s opponent, Jack Conway, is making good use of this whole episode btw. He said Paul has an “empathy gap” and a “cold” worldview, which is a good way of putting it.

Democrats with a pulse AND a clue… where have you been all my life!?

Comment #23: atheist  on  05/21  at  08:16 PM

Libertarians (conservatives) want the freedom to take away your freedom.

Comment #24: Albert Cirrus  on  05/21  at  08:22 PM

The coal miners and tobacco farmers may not like “welfare queens” or “waste”, but they sure want THEIR subsidies and THEIR safety regulations, that Paul wants to scrap.

One of the commenters on Balloon-Juice found a really amazing short film that the War Department did in 1947 called “Don’t Be A Sucker” that shows in great detail that bad people take over by dividing societies into smaller and smaller pieces.  It needs some restoration (the sound especially is not good) but it’s really fascinating to see how applicable it still is. 

Plus it features two great character actors:  Paul Lukas and Felix Bressart.  You may not know their names, but you will recognize them from about a million movies and (in Lukas’ case) TV shows.

Comment #25: Mnemosyne  on  05/21  at  08:23 PM

Random thought that just popped into my head:  the vast majority of business owners rent their property, they don’t own it.  So doesn’t that mean that in a libertarian society your landlord would be able to force you to run your business the way he wants you to because he’s the actual property owner, not you?  So the owner of a lunch counter could be forced to segregate (or desegregate) it by the property owner and he would have no recourse.  Don’t like it?  Then rent someplace else, sucker.

Comment #26: Mnemosyne  on  05/21  at  08:27 PM

Amanda, Thank you for this cogent post. I especially appreciate your citing the Commerce Clause of the Constitution, because, try as they may to portray libertarinism as a fringe of Republican party philosophy, the attack on the 1937 Supreme Court interpretations of the Commerce Clause, which ratified the New Deal, is at the very heart of Republican thinking. They really do want to roll back the clock to the days of no minimum wage, no unions, no maximum workweek.

Freedom for the privileged means serfdom for the rest of us.

Comment #27: revrick  on  05/21  at  08:28 PM

Today, when he wasn’t blaming Rachel Maddow and MSNBC for his own racist ideas (not interested in debating whether or not he is a racist - at a minimum, his ideas most certainly are racist), he was blasting off on President Obama for acting “un-American”.  And what terribly un-American thing did President Obama do to draw Paul’s criticism?

He blamed BP for the catastrophe they helped to create in the Gulf.

Apparantly, there’s nothing more un-American than holding a foreign oil company - BRITISH Petroleum - accountable when their practices cause massive ecological disasters in waters off of our shores.

So now, on top of sounding like a racist fuckwit, Rand Paul seems to be more concerned about the poor fee-fees of billionaire oil barons in London than he he is about the thousands of working class Americans in the fishing industry whose livelihoods may now be destroyed because of BP’s malfeasance.  Not to mention the countless number of other negative consequences this spill is going to have for decades to come.

I mean seriously… what rational person could look at what happened in the Gulf and come to the conclusion that the oil company is the fucking VICTIM in this whole debacle?

Jeebus, these people are fucking clueless.

Comment #28: DTG in STL  on  05/21  at  08:31 PM

The thing I’ve recently noticed about arguing with libertarians is that no matter what libertarian position you’re criticizing, you will almost always be told it’s a strawman—if internet libertarians are to be believed, no position that anyone criticizes is ever a position that a libertarian actually holds, and that people who criticize the positions don’t know what they’re talking about.

Comment #29: BrianX  on  05/21  at  08:35 PM

I mean seriously… what rational person could look at what happened in the Gulf and come to the conclusion that the oil company is the fucking VICTIM in this whole debacle?

People who are convinced that the government is always and by definition more powerful than any business could be, so poor little BP is just a cowering wreck before the almighty power of the US government that BP and other companies bought and paid for.

Oh, wait, sorry, you were asking what rational person would think that BP is being oppressed, not what irrational libertarian morons think.  My bad.  grin

Comment #30: Mnemosyne  on  05/21  at  08:36 PM

As I noted before, libertarianism as a popular philosophy enjoyed by people outside a few elites really took off in response to movements like the civil rights movement and other social justice movements.

Coincidence is not causality.  Two posts ago you merely stated that they coincided, and claimed that this was sufficient proof that one caused the other.  In this post, you say that libertarianism was caused by the civil rights movement.

Allow me to propose an alternate hypothesis for the coincidence.  After the collapse of the global economy in 1929, the Soviet Union managed to get back on its economic feet the fastest.  This attracted many supporters to socialism.  The USSR practically defeated Nazi Germany single handedly even after a surprise attack.  This also attracted supporters to socialism - here’s a proletarian revolutionary state and it’s kicking racist capitalist ass!  Awesome!  (The socialist victories continued up until 1961 with Sputnik and Gagarin, though many Western supporters were put off by the brutal 1957 repressions in Hungary).

Socialism thus had a compelling intellectual social justice narrative and a string of impressive accomplishments to boot.  The U.S. had started to make headway in terms of accomplishments (rolling up the Japanese, developing a nuke first) but lacked a coherent narrative.  Enter Ayn Rand, a victim of Soviet oppression, who recognized that capitalism and individualist societies needed a competing storyline.  She came up with her philosophy of Objectivism, which helped popularize libertarian thought. 

This coincides with the civil rights struggle because the Soviet Union forced the United States to become a better society.  Television broadcast in Eastern Europe were joyfully filled with footage of black ghettoes and burning crosses, which forced the US elites to act.  It’s about the only good thing the Soviets ever did. 

It is also the primary intellectual justification for unchecked corporate power that leads to disasters like our collapsed economy and the oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico.

So I suppose unchecked corporate power caused the economic collapse in Eastern Europe (and more recently, Greece)?  Oh yeah, and the oil spill was the result of an engineering error, not capitalism.  See: Chernobyl.

Comment #31: PeterZeroOne  on  05/21  at  08:47 PM

I think we are making a mistake by not expanding the argument beyond the police enforcing segregation at the woolworth’s counter. Even without state coercion libertarian ideals lead to segregation. White people control the vast majority of wealth in the US. Most white people have some threshold of black people in a neighborhood, school, etc where they feel “unsafe”. It can therefore be profitable to keep the white people with the wealth comfortable by maintaining majority white facilities. The free markets are directly aiding in segregation today, and liberals really need to bring attention to this fact if we want to get out of this inequality rut.

Comment #32: alysia  on  05/21  at  08:48 PM

Rand has now backed out of his Sunday interview on Meet the Press:  “He’s canceled, citing “exhaustion.” He’s only the third major guest in the show’s 62-year history to do so.”
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/5/21/868676/-KY-Sen:-Rand-Paul-squirms-out-of-Meet-the-Press-interview

Seriously, he can’t handle David “No one will fact-check my show!” Gregory!?!?!?!?!?!

Comment #33: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  05/21  at  08:54 PM

I once had an extended online debate (at Daylight Atheism, of all places) with a libertarian whose ideal state was the “Icelandic Free State”).  I’ll wait while you all google that.  It’s literally a feudal state.  I mean, I’ve joked before about how libertarians wanted to reinstate feudalism, but here was someone arguing, with complete seriousness, that a feudal state was the ideal libertarian state.  The conversation wound down after that, mostly because the only salient responses from me were “you have got to be shitting me”.

Comment #34: themann1086  on  05/21  at  08:55 PM

I have a feeling we’ll only be seeing Paul on Fox News from now on.

Comment #35: Ben D.  on  05/21  at  09:01 PM

I don’t know why these persons discard the notion that, though they start as mental constructs, the mores of society are very often codified into law, and the people charged with upholding that law are just as often empowered to injure the prospects of or outright terminate these Nietzschean supermen. Perhaps they persuade themselves that the totality of the laws are unjust because the laws tell them they can’t be Nietzschean supermen.

I think that the phenomenon of the contemporary Nietzschean “superman” can be well explained as Beta male posturing.  These dudes don’t understand very much about anything, and turn women off.

Comment #36: scratchy888  on  05/21  at  09:17 PM

Enter Ayn Rand, a victim of Soviet oppression, who recognized that capitalism and individualist societies needed a competing storyline.  She came up with her philosophy of Objectivism, which helped popularize libertarian thought.

Objectivism:  the Scientology of the 1960’s.  And “popularized” is a stretch.  It never was particularly “popular.”  Assholery as a way of life doesn’t appeal to that many people, fortunately.

So I suppose unchecked corporate power caused the economic collapse in Eastern Europe (and more recently, Greece)?

Yes.  The Russian and East European people wanted the same bread and circuses we were getting.  Also their leaders were complete and utter morons.

Oh yeah, and the oil spill was the result of an engineering error, not capitalism.

But was the engineering error facilitated and exacerbated by unrestrained, deregulated capitalism?  I think it was.  If there had been tighter regulations, the spill might not have happened.

Comment #37: liberalrob  on  05/21  at  09:28 PM

The evil motherfucker Nietzsche specifically argues against morality. His concern seems to be to create a ”superman” (yes, he was a total sexist), an “artist-tyrant” who is beyond morality, to be a kind of savior for humanity. And from Nietzsche’s point of view, if he has to enslave or destroy thousands of other people to get there, its totally worth it.

Kind of.  Or rather, that is also a crude interpretation of Nietzsche.  I think the problem is a reading that lacks a sense of irony.  Nietzsche wrote polemic, and in an ironic way.  He was trying to yank people’s chains, rather than create biblical precepts for a new society.  For instance, what is “slavery”?  Isn’t is the certainty that most of us have, that the boss has a legitimate claim on most of our time, and that we need to go to work and pay our dues without complaining?  Viewed in these more subtle (and I would argue, Nietzschean) terms, the majority of us are already enslaved.  OUr morality assures it.

Comment #38: scratchy888  on  05/21  at  09:31 PM

The biggest problem with Nietzsche, and you can say this about Karl Marx and Adam Smith, too, are his “followers”.

Comment #39: Ben D.  on  05/21  at  09:36 PM

but here was someone arguing, with complete seriousness, that a feudal state was the ideal libertarian state.

Because these folks assume that they would be the noble lords in such a society. It really doesn’t occur to them that whatever success they might have had in life occurred in a context, and that they are not in fact built from self-made awesomeness. One could ask them “What if Bill Gates and Warren Buffett had been born in Haiti?” but they wouldn’t even understand the question, because to understand the question would be to automatically acknowledge that their whole line of thought was bull.

Comment #40: Theron  on  05/21  at  09:38 PM

I have a feeling we’ll only be seeing Paul on Fox News from now on.

I truly hope you’re right.  And while I think Paul certainly made himself a lot more unelectable this week, I think it’s premature to assume this will definitely result in a Conway victory.  This is Kentucky we’re talking about, and there’s a fairly decent number of folks there who immediately sympathize with people who they believe are unfairly being called out as racists by the so-called “liberal mainstream media”.

I don’t know exactly how or when this phenomenon became so prominent, but I’ve noticed since the beginning of the 2008 election season, conservatives have somehow managed to garner a lot of sympathy by accusing their detractors of “playing the race card”.  They’ve somehow constructed this ridiculous argument that it is somehow more reprehensible to call someone a racist than it is to actually be a racist.  And unfortunately, a not insignificant amount of the white population, especially older whites, has bought right into that line of thinking.

Rachel Maddow did nothing in her interview other than ask valid questions of Dr. Paul.  And yet, immediately afterwards, an entire cadre of wingnut pundits and even some supposedly moderate pundits ran out to Paul’s defense, arguing fiercely that he isn’t really a racist, he’s just deeply committed to the principle of personal liberty.  Additionally, they characterized Maddow as a damn liberal lesbian who was just trying to tear this good man down.

I hope he loses the election.  I believe that he has already given Conway plenty of ammo to use in the next 5 months.  My concern is that there are still enough latent racists out there (who don’t consider themselves racists) who are going to feel the poor white man’s pain.

Considering some of the other political outrages we’ve seen taking place around the country in the past 2 years, nothing can really shock me anymore.  I desperately want Paul to lose, but I’m not convinced that he will.  Neither is Clarence Page, a prominent liberal African-American journalist with the Washington Post.  Nate Silver says that the jury is still out, and nobody reads polling tea leaves better than Nate.

The downside of Paul revealing this unsavory aspect of his identity is the timing… will this still weigh heavily on KY voters’ minds in November, more than five months from now?  I don’t know.  Hopefully the Conway campaign people get as much mileage out of this as they can, because it’s rare that a prominent opponent gives you something this big to use against him.

Comment #41: DTG in STL  on  05/21  at  09:38 PM

What if Bill Gates and Warren Buffett had been born in Haiti?

A liberal is someone who fully understand what a role pure luck can play in life, a conservative or libertarian does not.

Comment #42: Ben D.  on  05/21  at  09:44 PM

“Might makes right” - libertarianism in a nutshell

Not really. It’s more like “My might makes right.” When other people (say, with darker-colored skin) get together to insist on something, or when the whole effing country gets together in something called a government and decides something the libertarian doesn’t like, then that’s terribly, terribly wrong.

It’s sorta weird—I’d never really thought of the pro-war, pro-incarceration-of-other-people, anti-tax, anti-regulation, anti-fairness types as libertarians. I’d just thought of them as assholes. But I guess “libertarian” will do.

I think the nietszchean thing is interesting, because I really don’t see the “narrow reading of the commerce clause” thing as being accurate. Sure, they came up with the narrow reading thing so that they could argue for segregation, and to an extent it also privileges corporations, but I think that turning corporations loose isn’t just an unintended consequence of that.

Instead, consider the corporation as Superman. It has all the privileges and immunities of a real person, plus a few more, plus potential immortality. It’s required by law to act as a self-aggrandizing sociopath. And the ones that attract notice are uniformly very rich and powerful. The corporations’ vicars on earth, CEOs and other upper management types, model the sociopathic egomaniac role of the Superman with as much fidelity as they can muster. So of course any libertarian of the US kind would be besotted with them to the point of worship.

And of course, as with other closet (and not-so-closet) authoritarians, they never imagine they might be among the ones getting ground into the dirt, even when it’s pointed out to them.

Comment #43: paul  on  05/21  at  09:47 PM

DTG, Kentucky isn’t Mississippi, or even South Carolina. They had Wendell Ford as a Senator, they voted for Clinton twice. Instead it’s a cross between West Virginia and Missouri. Conway needs to run as what I call a “TVA Democrat” and go way to the left economically of Paul while being socially centrist, which he seems to be doing. That’s Conway’s best chance to win.

Comment #44: Ben D.  on  05/21  at  09:48 PM

But was the engineering error facilitated and exacerbated by unrestrained, deregulated capitalism?  I think it was.  If there had been tighter regulations, the spill might not have happened.

Sorry for the thread drift, but I think it’s important to highlight liberalrob’s comment here.  What happened was (allegedly) even worse than an engineering error (which suggests something like a design flaw or miscalculation that went undetected); BP managers made decisions not to adhere to appropriate safety practices on at least one occasion and probably more.

Put another way, BP gambled in order to cut costs; its poor judgement was firmly in the context of maximizing profit.  Unfortunately, the price of BP’s gamble was the lives of 11 people and massive environmental damage.

Comment #45: Linnaeus  on  05/21  at  09:53 PM

The biggest problem with Nietzsche, and you can say this about Karl Marx and Adam Smith, too, are his “followers”.

Yeah, but they are also the biggest victims of Nietzschean irony (in the case of Nietzsche’s followers), since Nietzsche didn’t want followers but was trying to use irony to get people to think for themselves.  He wanted independent minds.  That is the real Nietzschean “superman”.  But the current century has produced his followers, and in every way they are clumsy and awkward creatures.  Among them are those who earnestly believe that because I play with dangerous ideas and risk myself in doing so that I am “mediocre”.  (They believe they get this reading from Nietzsche.)  Others have spoken to me with a tone of:  “Nietzsche has a role for you to play, too, you woman.”  Those are the more balanced of the Nietzscheans, but they have also missed the point.  But more common is the Beta male posturing:  “By hook or by crook, we will make you see things our way, so that you recognise our patriarchal/male superiority.”  Apparently these young men think that adopting this line towards females is what Nietzsche wanted them to do, if they are to become real men.

Comment #46: scratchy888  on  05/21  at  09:55 PM

Instead, consider the corporation as Superman. It has all the privileges and immunities of a real person, plus a few more, plus potential immortality. It’s required by law to act as a self-aggrandizing sociopath. And the ones that attract notice are uniformly very rich and powerful. The corporations’ vicars on earth, CEOs and other upper management types, model the sociopathic egomaniac role of the Superman with as much fidelity as they can muster. So of course any libertarian of the US kind would be besotted with them to the point of worship.

But those who worship the corporation are worshiping their own slavery.

Comment #47: scratchy888  on  05/21  at  09:57 PM

First: I believe in the civil rights act and feel minorities need protection from discrimination, and believe the similar legislation should be expanded to include gender discrimination and age discrimination. Second: Rand Paul has said many things I disagree with. Third: I think this is something of a misrepresentation of libertarianism although I’m not a libertarian.  There are thoughtful and important things to take from this worldview.
Libertarianism is a very idealistic world view in that it applies very well in theory, but not so well in a given situation.  There are many routes out of established racism and there has not yet been a perfect one.  I personally feel the implementation of th CRA(civil rights act) could have been done better to get us over racism sooner - policies of more affirmative action, more scholarships etc.  I believe that would make a bigger difference than ending segregated lunch counters.  A better balance of private property, less entrenched economic inequality and a more rapid growth in the workforce would probably have resulted. Libertarians defend the power of private property, but that does not always equate to Republican world-view.  The hippy commune is a libertarian ideal as well - they make their rules, live off the grid etc.  Yes it isn’t practical but it isn’t automatically about protecting the man in power.
Libertarians are anti-regulation but that actually isn’t always pro-corporate. Currently a lot of regulations favor corporations.  Anyways, in a libertarian society I wouldn’t have to deal with the religious crazy of our society, but as attractive as that idea is a libertarian society doesn’t work.  Not everyone is practical enough to accept that.

Comment #48: TheSquirrelfish  on  05/21  at  10:16 PM

NobleExpirments @19 “‘Capitalism is an economic system; democracy is a governmental system; they’re not the same thing’, only to get a blank stare or argument from someone who doesn’t see that the two might be in conflict.  Democracy is to be in service of capitalism, don’t ya know?”

John Ralston Saul makes this point many times. I can’t remember the exact quotes, but he basically points out that capitalism is a pretty good way to run an economy when regulated and watched. But it’s a terrible way to run a society and shouldn’t be put ahead of democracy and the governmental system.

Comment #49: LC  on  05/21  at  10:17 PM

BrianX@29 - if internet libertarians are to be believed, no position that anyone criticizes is ever a position that a libertarian actually holds, and that people who criticize the positions don’t know what they’re talking about.

This drives me nuts. I’ve been noticing that, too.

Comment #50: LC  on  05/21  at  10:17 PM

Freedom is impossible if you’re starving or have no roof over your head or have some problem which prevents you from earning a living.

Libertarians like to call this freedom to fail, but I call it imprisoned by poverty.

Comment #51: Elliot  on  05/21  at  10:42 PM

what rational person could look at what happened in the Gulf and come to the conclusion that the oil company is the fucking VICTIM in this whole debacle?

Some rich motherfucker who only hangs out with other CEOs and multimillionaire types.

What BP did was criminally negligent.  What i want to know is when they are going to be ordered to seal the well—they’ve had more than enough time to fix it.  It’s destroying the Gulf.  They need to bomb it shut.

Yes, they will lose the hundreds of millions of dollars they invested.  Boo fucking hoo.  They risked it all for more profit, and they lost.  They deserve to lose.  They don’t deserve the protection of the liability caps because they were so fucking reckless.  They deserve to be dissolved and for many many of their upper level management types to go to jail.

But people like Rand will find ways to protect BP’s upper echelon.  The really rich can’t possibly be held accountable: they’re victims unless they can be paid millions.  See, they deserve to be paid lots of money because they are supermen, and when they fail…well, that doesn’t count.  They still deserve to be paid millions.

Comment #52: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/21  at  11:20 PM

, they deserve to be paid lots of money because they are supermen, and when they fail…well, that doesn’t count.  They still deserve to be paid millions.

Precisely.

“I’m doing God’s work.”

—Lloyd Blankfein, CEO of Goldman-Sachs - one of the principle firms whose practices led to the worst global financial crisis since the Great Depression, November 2009

Comment #53: DTG in STL  on  05/22  at  12:21 AM

It’s not just the CEO-lovers. It’s also all the people who depend on the oil industry and long ago came down with Stockholm syndrome. Which is a lucky thing for the CEOs, because if all the people who have been screwed as employees, subcontractors, residents of oil-patch communities, families of workers and so forth were engaging in massive psychosis, pitchforks would be the least of their problems.

Comment #54: paul  on  05/22  at  12:22 AM

This thread has some of the most uncharitable readings of Nietzsche I’ve ever seen. I wonder how much of that is due to the frightfully terrible translations of his work that made it to the English language (the most common translation that floated around academia was done by a critique of Nietzsche who also bought hook and sinker Nietzsche’s sister’s interpretation of his work as pro-Nazi). I’ve read the French translation myself and I have a hard time coming at the same conclusions on his meaning as atheist (to be fair though, Max Stirner’s philosophy which might have been plagiarized by Nietzsche according to some is a lot less likely to be misinterpreted as a proto-fascist one).

In any case, no matter what you might say of the whole of his philosophy, some liberals and fellow leftists might do well to read on his skewering of resentment and slave morality if they want to improve their politics. They don’t need to do it as much as the teabaggers, but the teabaggers aren’t the type to go for self-improvement anyway. There’s a chasm between taking the side of the working class and seeing poverty as a virtue in itself (the point of socialism, as Rudolph Rocker once said, is that “nothing is too good for the working class”... not for bourgeois socialists to go for self-hatred and pseudo-solutions like voluntary simplicity that are just a polite form of slumming).

Comment #55: BlackBloc  on  05/22  at  12:25 AM

I think we need to claim Nietzsche as one of ours, a fearless liberal. His idea of the superman is of someone who dares to think for himself. He hated the right-wing anti-Semites of his sister’s circle, which is why he broke with Wagner; it was quite an unusual attitude for his time.

Forgive me if I’m rehashing something that’s already been chewed over, but it misses the point to treat Rand Paul as a pure libertarian when he’s anti-abortion and anti-gay as well. He isn’t some sort of wide-eyed idealist innocent, he’s a racist, sexist, right-wing extremist.

Comment #56: bad Jim  on  05/22  at  12:48 AM

John Ralston Saul makes this point many times. I can’t remember the exact quotes, but he basically points out that capitalism is a pretty good way to run an economy when regulated and watched. But it’s a terrible way to run a society…

“Unregulated competition is a naive metaphor for anarchy. “

“If allowed to run free of the social system, capitalism will attempt to corrupt and undermine democracy, which is after all not a natural state. “

That last one is the most important.  Democracy is very much unnatural in terms of instinctive behaviours.  Democracy needs people to work at it to keep it going, whereas falling into a more hierarchical arrangement is damn near automatic.

Comment #57: KeithM  on  05/22  at  01:05 AM

I think we need to claim Nietzsche as one of ours, a fearless liberal. His idea of the superman is of someone who dares to think for himself. He hated the right-wing anti-Semites of his sister’s circle, which is why he broke with Wagner; it was quite an unusual attitude for his time.

Well, he wasn’t a liberal as such either, and clearly says so.  That is, he wasn’t much for the improvement of society by trying to introduce more equitable laws.  What he was for is the exploration and investigation of “natural laws”.  Unfortunately, natural laws are by their nature not easy to pin down with the intellect.  We tend to oversimplify and thereby draw wrong and damaging conclusions on the basis of our logic.  One erroneous conclusion that many draw from Nietzsche is that he favoured (and so what if he did?) the existing social elite—the moneyed uppercrust.  They are at the top because they deserve to be, according to many Nietzsche supporters.  But the error is to transport a moralising point of view into an otherwise more naturalistic (Nietzschean) paradigm.  Those who make this error are inclined to presume that the de facto elite are our MORAL superiors, when they are just de facto superiors based upon some largely unknown (and unknowable, in total) principles of natural law. 

As I said, the main error that Nietzsche’s followers make is in believing that these principles of natural law are in principle knowable in whole, or that they can be harnessed by those who get inside knowledge by reading Nietzsche.  This turns Nietzsche’s ideas into the basis for a cult mentality.  It also gives conscious knowledge the exact inverted status to that which Nietzsche gives it.  (To Nietzsche, consciousness is a limitation, an inclination towards illness, not the basis for asserting one’s superiority.)  But the authoritarian Nietzscheans nonetheless have Nietzsche exactly upside down—and they will rail at you for not submitting to the authority of your “superiors” or not obeying narrow gender role parameters, and so on.  This means that they are still reading Nietzsche in a moralistic way, and not understanding that the whole point of Nietzsche was to question these moralistic strictures, and try to understand how reality actually functions—according to natural laws.

Comment #58: scratchy888  on  05/22  at  01:23 AM

Ugh, scratchy888. That sort of “natural law” sounds a bit like EvPsych. (My acquaintance with Nietzsche is rather shallow.) Your account of his critique of liberalism reminds me of much of radical ideology, the idea that there’s no point in ameliorating present conditions since the inevitable revolution will resolve everything. I accept that much of my activity is more or less predetermined, but I still have to decide everyday what I’ll have for lunch, therefore I still have to send checks to Democrats in election years, &c;.

Comment #59: bad Jim  on  05/22  at  01:39 AM

No, no, no, Bad Jim!  But your misreading is precisely the misreading that is most common with regard to Nietzsche.  No, the natural laws are not known.  They belong to the unconscious and its states.  What evolutionary psychology does is to try to make out that these laws are knowable and positivistic, and that they have certain logical parameters.  But Nietzschean “law” simply says that how things are, and how they appear to be to our moral sensibilities are two entirely different things.  How things actually are is determined by natural law.  How things appear to be is determined by human consciousness (and, I would add, such things as wish fulfilment, self-deception, wilful superficiality, unfounded optimism, and so on).  What you really have to do is get away from thinking of Nietzsche’s writings as providing moral and intellectual parameters for certain kinds of behaviour as the Ev Psych’s do when they try to normalise gender roles.  Nietzsche’s writing does exactly the opposite to this.  What is “natural”, according to Nietzsche is not necessarily useful to humanity, or on the side of its development, nor does this notion of natural give us parameters that we ought to stick within, (as in serving for instance, our own moral edification).  The exact opposite is rather true.  Nietzschean thinking is not prescriptive.

Comment #60: scratchy888  on  05/22  at  01:55 AM

Also, natural law pervades everything in an active way.  We do not passively submit to it and decide “there is no point in ameliorating anything”.  Rather, if we do in fact decide that there is a point in ameliorating something we are enacting this natural law on one particular level.  The point is that reality is more complicated than moral precepts or logical precepts can account for.  That is why I have suggested this broader concept—which I believe to be Nietzsche’s own—of a kind of natural system of laws.

Comment #61: scratchy888  on  05/22  at  01:59 AM

BlacBloc, I’ve read a couple of books by Nietzsche and a couple of books about his work, all in English, as well as a couple of the great Nietzsche-influenced philosophers of recent times, including Foucault and the feminist Kelly Oliver.  Also spoken to a couple of working-class youths who like the guy.  You’re right that nowhere does he say any of what atheist attributes to him; but, pace bad Jim, it’s hard to get away from the elitist, anti-democratic side of his thinking.  Nietzsche’s own favorite philosopher, however, was Emerson, who I’d suggest would be a better icon if you want to promote the idea that everyone can think for themselves, rather than just the small vanguard who’ve begun to transcend slave morality.

Ayn Rand’s belief that Nietzsche had anticipated her ideas was her problem.  They have in common an affinity for romanticizing images of powerful men.  But the “blond beast” that Nietzsche likes to imagine was an exemplar of primitive morality in bygone days is not exactly John Galt.  And I can’t imagine Rand having kind words for Jesus or Gautama Buddha, both of whom Nietzsche praises in his great denunciation of Christianity, Anti-Christ.  Really, the philosopher whom Rand owes the most to is her beloved Mickey Spillane.

I don’t know what you mean, BB, by “the most common translation that floated around academia was done by a critique of Nietzsche who also bought hook and sinker Nietzsche’s sister’s interpretation of his work as pro-Nazi,” unless you’re referring to an era prior to 1947, when Walter Kaufmann began his generally successful project of translating and rehabilitating Nietzsche for Americans.

Comment #62: Josh  on  05/22  at  02:02 AM

but, pace bad Jim, it’s hard to get away from the elitist, anti-democratic side of his thinking.  Nietzsche’s own favorite philosopher, however, was Emerson, who I’d suggest would be a better icon if you want to promote the idea that everyone can think for themselves, rather than just the small vanguard who’ve begun to transcend slave morality.

Playing devil’s advocate here, I wonder how possible the self-ascribed POLITICAL elitism is in practice.  Generally the contemporary Nietzscheans who set themselves up as kind of overmen/elitists are very inconsistent, as I have found out.  They rely heavily on existing systems of infrastructure (a product of liberal democratic work) as well as the entrenchment of existing social mores, in order to feel that they are elite.  But this is hardly a transcendence of slave morality, any more than it is “thinking for themselves”.  It has a lot of resonance with being comfortably middle class.

The difficulty in genuinely transcending slave morality (as opposed to posturing as elite, and acting brutally) is that one has to encounter one’s own authoritarian compulsions.  Submission gives us peace of mind, and that is why “thinking for oneself” is not as easy as it sounds—and certainly isn’t for everyone.  Rather, one has to inwardly attack one’s own authoritarian compulsions and then put something else substantial in its place.  And then be sure to KEEP that other substantial thing there, and not allow it to be whittled away by self-doubt, anxiety, confusion and fatigue.  So, there is a genuine difficulty in doing this kind of thing, and it is that measure of difficulty (and not one’s capacity to proclaim oneself an elite, or brutal law breaker) that establishes one as elite.

Comment #63: scratchy888  on  05/22  at  02:41 AM

Yes Rand Paul is a racist, but then the vast majority of white Americans are racist and also ignorant of the fact that they are.  Not all racists are equally noxious and Rand Paul though racist may be preferable to his Democratic opponent.

Counterpunch is a liberal web site that I read daily and this article  about the Rachael Maddow Rand Paul interview thinks that the interview got side tracked into practical irrelevancies, that on things that are likely to come to a vote Rand Paul is a better fit for liberals than his corporatist law and order ex-prosecutor Democratic opponent.

Comment #64: The Evil One  on  05/22  at  02:57 AM

First of all, I admit to some sympathies to some libertarian ideals. Protecting individual freedoms from government-run-amok should strike a chord with any liberal who fears the inevitable wingnut evangelical president and/or congress who will do all they can to suppress the liberties of women and LGBT folk in the name of Jesus. And anyone who has ever had to deal with bureaucratic red tape (which is pretty much everyone) will gain at least some understanding of the ideal of limited government. Also, some libertarians can be valued allies in the fight for choice, LGBT rights and gay marriage.

Sadly, personal liberty is, to put it mildly, of secondary importance to most politicians and Cato employees who style themselves “libertarian.” Instead, they are obsessed with increasing the power of unelected corporations at the expense of the government. This is sad because, to common folk like you and me, there is no difference between an overbearing government controlling your every move, and an overbearing corporation controlling your every move. A chemical company poisoning your drinking water, or Google or Facebook monitoring your every move online and selling that information to the highest bidder… or in the case of “Ayn” Rand Paul here, a corporation discriminating against people of the wrong skin color… is every bit a violation of civil rights as the federal government doing the same.

Comment #65: TCB  on  05/22  at  03:48 AM

I doubt that this is what Friedrich N. had in mind, but I have in my care my elderly mother, whose memory Alzheimer’s continually whittles away, who in earlier times was brilliant, bitchy, generous and manipulative, in whom now the least admirable qualities predominate. As her primary caregiver, “self-doubt, anxiety, confusion and fatigue” characterize even my moments of repose, and there really isn’t anything to assert as an organizing principle apart from endurance, except for wine. Omar Khayyam:

Would you forget a woman, drink red wine;

Would you remember her, then drink red wine!

Is your heart breaking just to see her face?

Gaze deep within this mirror of red wine.

Comment #66: bad Jim  on  05/22  at  04:03 AM

Libertarianism is a very idealistic world view in that it applies very well in theory,

You realize this is a meaningless statement, right?

Comment #67: Eric_RoM  on  05/22  at  05:00 AM

I doubt that this is what Friedrich N. had in mind, but I have in my care my elderly mother, whose memory Alzheimer’s continually whittles away, who in earlier times was brilliant, bitchy, generous and manipulative, in whom now the least admirable qualities predominate. As her primary caregiver, “self-doubt, anxiety, confusion and fatigue” characterize even my moments of repose,

I think the FN might find those qualities of experience to be more interesting than qualities of moral certainty.

In no way was FN saying that it was wrong to experience any particular phenomena, not even the very worst sorts.  Moral purity was never his cup of tea.

Comment #68: scratchy888  on  05/22  at  05:16 AM

The only Libertarian whose posts I read is The Agitator, Radley Balko, I would suggest that he is a sane libertarian and I strongly recommend him to you. I as an evil politically correct bleeding heart liberal have never found anything he says with which I disagree.

Most libertarians have some very strange ideas, but they are against the war against <strike>Niggers</strike> drugs and the wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran (soon to come).  A politician with a few 1937 attitudes on race might be forgiven these if he is actually stands up against these current evils.

CounterPunch is a site that I visit every day, and I give considerable weight to its articles. If Alexander Cockburn at CounterPunch thinks that Rachael Maddow concentrated on the wrong issues then I think the arguments are worth looking at.

Comment #69: The Evil One  on  05/22  at  05:17 AM

Because these folks assume that they would be the noble lords in such a society. It really doesn’t occur to them that whatever success they might have had in life occurred in a context, and that they are not in fact built from self-made awesomeness.

I find this applies to MRAs, anti-feminists, anti-choicers, etcetera as much as it applies to every other flavor of right-wing idjit. There’s something to be said for Randian selfishness - it’s proponents never realise what privileged, crybaby assholes they really are while they flounce around pretending to be above everyone. They always assume they will be the lord in the feudal system and not the serf.

Comment #70: Princess Rot  on  05/22  at  06:39 AM

TEO wrote:

“A politician with a few 1937 attitudes on race might be forgiven these if he is actually stands up against these current evils.”

From TIME, 4/26/1937

“Despite what he had just witnessed, Negro Townes was not yet ready to repeat the confession which county officers had said he signed with his X after he was arrested last fortnight. But the blow torch soon burned the story out of him. As he hung limp in his chains, some of the mob went off to get another Negro he named as an accomplice. Back they came with one Shorty Dorroh. After he satisfied them that he had had nothing to do with the murder, they horsewhipped him, ordered him to get out of the State. Then they piled brush high about sobbing Negro Townes, drenched it with gasoline, touched him off—1937’s lynching victim No. 3.”

Yeah, let’s go back to those halcyon days when white men were men, black men were being burned at the stake, and women of all races were dying of illegal abortions! Go Paul!

Comment #71: prescaarthur  on  05/22  at  07:47 AM

Teo

You are right, 1937 was not a good year to use to benchmark the level of Ron & Rand Paul’s racism.  It was a sarcasm overload. I am addicted to sarcasm and sometimes go to far.

Both Pauls are racist as are the overwhelming majority of white Americans but not all racism is the same, the level motivating the mob in the Time article is considerably stronger than that in the minds of the Pauls who only have the standard issue stereotypes of Negroes as being lesser than whites in every good trait and greater in every bad one.  These prejudices do enormous damage when channeled through the legal system and result in innocent people getting convicted (legal lynchings) but they do not lead to actual lynchings.

Comment #72: The Evil One  on  05/22  at  08:31 AM

#69

If Alexander Cockburn at CounterPunch thinks that Rachael Maddow concentrated on the wrong issues then I think the arguments are worth looking at.

Alexander Cockburn is a very smart, funny, perceptive guy, which means that his articles are fun to read, and he actually has a lot to say about geopolitical issues. What you have to understand about him, though, is that not only does he have this sort of knee jerk streak of “contrarianism”, where he sometimes says things whose only apparent purpose is to piss people off, but he seriously sees everything through a prism of Anti-Imperialism. Viewed through his Anti-Imperialist prism, the only important things are the large-scale problems, the wars and the ecological disasters, the nuclear proliferation. His Anti-Imperialist prism, it doesn’t see the “Culture War”, so as far as he is concerned, if you are standing up for liberal or feminist values, you are just wasting your time because you are ignoring the wars and the nuclear proliferation. So if you read him, that’s great, just keep his blind spots in mind.

Comment #73: atheist  on  05/22  at  09:31 AM

we can get rid of Affirmative Action on the very first day that not one person in the world is trying to get rid of Affirmative Action

Wouldn’t it be wonderful if some day there were a news item about this odd thing called “Affirmative Action”, and it was treated like those old laws about not walking one’s alligator down main street after 3 a.m.?

Comment #74: xebecs  on  05/22  at  10:20 AM

Blackbloc:

Any chance you could recommend a good english translation of nietzche?

Comment #75: Chuck  on  05/22  at  11:32 AM

Over in Keene, NH, there is a group of libertarians called “Free Keene” that are just about the most obnoxious douchebags you can imagine. They stage constant rallies in the town square for marijuana legalization, they harass town employees, they decided that Tuesdays are “topless Tuesdays” (despite the fact that it is not in fact illegal in NH to go topless), and when the town requested that they not do this as their place to hold this event was right next to the middle school they threw a huge tantrum, held the event anyway, and flashed the schoolbuses as they drove by.

Anytime someone (in the media or the legal system) tries to call them out on this behavior, they take the position that “well, just because all the people who were participating in the protest are registered members of our organization, and just because they met and planned for the event during our meetings, and just because the organization promoted the event, it was not an official Free Keene event and therefore the organization is not accountable for their actions.”

It’s pretty easy to extrapolate that mentality out to the entire Libertarian philosophy. Anytime a Libertarian strays too far off of the reservation and starts spouting the natural end-result of the philosophy, the No True Scotsman fallacy is invoked, temper tantrums are thrown, and I’m just going to go ahead and say that pre-teens are flashed. Because they’re assholes.

Comment #76: Mighty Ponygirl  on  05/22  at  07:17 PM

What i want to know is when they are going to be ordered to seal the well—they’ve had more than enough time to fix it.  It’s destroying the Gulf.  They need to bomb it shut.

Caren, is that really an option? I never heard of that among the alternatives. And the ones that I have seen, like the Junk Shot, seem like they would pretty well seal the well themselves.

...pre-teens are flashed. Because they’re assholes.

May a man with a daughter on that bus go King David on those guys. With rusty hedge clippers.

Comment #77: Bitter Scribe  on  05/22  at  07:40 PM

In the initial Rachel Maddow video, there was one point Paul almost started to make that makes sense, and I’m a bit surprised he hasn’t run to it and made that his rhetorical ground to defend.  Specifically, he started to use an analogy to free speech and defending even hateful peoples’ right to say their hateful things.

Perhaps that isn’t the best way (for him) to phrase it, given that he’s going to have to say something like “hey, it’s just like what the ACLU does” while running as a Republican, but I think this aspect of it is also interesting: Why can we look at housing discrimination and say “your right to sell to whom you choose is trumped by the right of people to live where they want regardless of race”, but we can’t look at offensive speech and say “your right to say hateful things is trumped by the right of people to live their lives without being triggered by your words”?

The answer comes back very strongly, and that is: arbitrary commerce isn’t a fundamental right the way speech, freedom of religion, or freedom of association is.  Hell, even the right to keep and bear arms is stronger than other private property rights.  This is the fundamental disconnect with libertarians - they’ve taken a right that, while perhaps stronger in America than anywhere else, is a relatively weak right and have elevated it to the supreme right-above-all-rights.  It occurs to me that a better name for the philosophy might be “commersarians”, because that’s what they want: arbitrary commerce.  All other rights need to take a back seat.

Comment #78: Daniel Martin  on  05/22  at  08:04 PM

DM, I think there’s another aspect to the distinction between speech and commercial actions. Speech can be ignored; implicit in the right to be heard is the right not to listen. But express your hostility through actions like refusing to let black people into your restaurant, and you have crossed the line into behavior that manifestly degrades others in a way that those others cannot ignore.

Comment #79: Bitter Scribe  on  05/22  at  08:16 PM

Paul also has the problem that he base pretty much despises both free speech and the ACLU.

Comment #80: paul  on  05/22  at  09:15 PM

Bitter Scribe -
I’m not sure I buy that the line between refusing to serve members of a particular race (immoral and illegal) and preaching on a street corner about how evil a certain race is (immoral but absolutely legal) can be drawn based on how ignorable the action is.

After all, if it’s a private restaurant, I can presumably go to a different one or eat at home; however, if this person with the hateful speech is on the steps of city hall or somewhere I’m required to be by law for whatever reason (some place there don’t exist or can’t exist substitutes for), how do I avoid them?  How is the unavoidable bigoted speech more ignorable than the avoidable discrimination in service?

I really think that you have to draw the line by saying that speech is specially privileged in our society.  Of course, you could then go one step further and ask why one would want a society in which speech has this special status; that’s a different question and I don’t have a complete answer for it yet.  Certainly societies that seem perfectly acceptable exist that protect free speech less absolutely than the US does.  I happen to like what we do here in that regard, but I’m not convinced it’s the only possible way to run a decent society.

paul -
Yes, that’s what I meant by my sentence fragment that ended “while running as a Republican”.

Comment #81: Daniel Martin  on  05/22  at  09:47 PM

DM,

You’re clouding the issue. If the speech is unavoidable, that’s an entirely different issue than if it exists. People can and should be protected, up to a point, from being forced to listen to anyone. Society has a whole host of laws to accomplish this, ranging from zoning restrictions on billboard size to corridor zones for abortion clinics.

But the mere fact of speech can’t possibly compare, in terms of its impact on citizens, with the effects of the kind of behavior outlawed by the Civil Rights Act.

I mean, think about it. If a black person (or anyone else) is accidentally exposed to hateful speech, he or she can simply refuse to read or listen. Even in a worst-case scenario of an asshole with a bullhorn in the street, the annoyance would last no more than the few seconds it would take to walk past it.

But to walk into a restaurant, perhaps with your family, perhaps with a date, expecting nothing more than to enjoy a pleasant meal, and be told to your face to leave because of your race? You have to slink out of the restaurant, rejected. You have to change your plans, probably reassure your companions, all the while burning with humiliation. That’s degradation, and there’s no way you or anyone else can tell me that it’s merely the equivalent of a goofy-ass skinhead webpage.

Comment #82: Bitter Scribe  on  05/22  at  09:59 PM

#75

Any chance you could recommend a good english translation of nietzche?

I would say go for the Walter Kaufmann translations. You can’t go wrong with Kaufmann.

Comment #83: atheist  on  05/22  at  11:16 PM

The following article at The Exiled Online: ”ATLAS SHRIEKED: Ayn Rand’s First Love and Mentor Was A Sadistic Serial Killer Who Dismembered Little Girls”, is the gruesome, repulsive and true story of how Ayn Rand idolized the serial killer William Edward Hickman. It’s not easy to read and may give you nightmares, but I think it helps to understand where Rand was really coming from as a philosopher and writer.

Not the first philosopher to admire murderers, nor is it a feature solely of the Right - Sartre and Genet.

I suspect a certain type of philosopher tends to regard sociopathy as an existential assertion of individual morals.  Rather than, you know, being fucked up in the head.

Comment #84: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  05/23  at  12:20 AM

The evil motherfucker Nietzsche specifically argues against morality. His concern seems to be to create a ”superman” (yes, he was a total sexist),

Heh. Nietzsche is (in)famous for insisting women exist solely as prizes for the superior men.

Nietzsche, on the other hand, appears to have had one unrequited love affair in his life, with the woman (Lou Salome) passing him over quickly.  He would have been a lot better off if he’d spent his time quietly jerking off to himself over the Gor books.

Comment #85: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  05/23  at  12:36 AM

FWIW, I was acquainted with one of the philosophy professors at the “Harvard of the Midwest” and he detested Nietszche because he was born and grew up in Germany until right before WWII broke out as not just a Jew, but as a rabbi with advanced degrees in Philosophy.

Anyhoo, I remember him talking about looking forward to going to a conference remarking that he was ‘going to pick Kaufmann’s brains about this or that’. 

Alas, he never got a chance to because Kaufmann died right before the conference began.

I second PiaToR, and also recommend, although it has very little about Nietzche in it, Kaufmans’ personal work The Faith of a Heretic.

Comment #86: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/23  at  02:01 AM

But to walk into a restaurant, perhaps with your family, perhaps with a date, expecting nothing more than to enjoy a pleasant meal, and be told to your face to leave because of your race? You have to slink out of the restaurant, rejected. You have to change your plans, probably reassure your companions, all the while burning with humiliation. That’s degradation, and there’s no way you or anyone else can tell me that it’s merely the equivalent of a goofy-ass skinhead webpage.

And the thing is, humiliation wouldn’t even be the worst-case scenario if we gave Rand Paul his way and allowed all private businesses to discriminate at will.  Let’s draw this out to a frightening scenario that could happen in Rand Paul’s perfect vision of America that doesn’t have the meddling hand of government telling private businesses that they can’t discriminate based on color:

Throughout the state of Mississippi, there are places where a person can drive 50 miles in any direction and not hit anymore than 2 or 3 gas stations, 2 or 3 restaurants, or 2 or 3 motels.  Let’s say a black family with 2 young children in the back seat runs out of gas on I-55 in the middle of the state, nowhere near Jackson or Oxford or any of the larger cities.  It’s the middle of August, and it’s a brutal summer day - 102 degrees with 90% humidity (not uncommon in southern Mississippi in mid-August).  One of the adults starts trudging to a gas station to bring some gas back.  Every gas station in walking distance refuses them service, because they are black.  When the desperate parent pleads with the gas station attendants to at least let them buy some water so their kids don’t suffer heat strokes, they are still refused.  They walk to the nearest hotel, begging for a room, even offering to pay above the listed rate - they are again refused.  The same thing happens at the restaurants - the signs all say, “No Negros Are Welcome Here!”  Panicking and sobbing, the parents take their children into a wooded area hoping to find a stream of cool water to bring their infant daughter’s temperature down - she’s literally on the verge of death, her fever is so high at this point.

But it’s too late, the young girl dies in her mother’s arms, and all because a bunch of evil racists refused to conduct business with this desperate family simply because their skin was brown.

That girl was murdered, period.

Now… to the libertarians who want to respond to that scenario by saying that nobody could ever be so cruel as to allow anything like that to happen, please remember that it was less than 80 years ago that young black boys were immolated by mobs in public squares on the mere suspicion of committing crimes, with no repurcussions for the savage lynch mobs.  It was 29 years ago that Michael Donald was hung from a tree for no other reason than the fact that he happened to be a young black man who crossed paths with two evil inbred racist pieces of shit hell-bent on stringing any damn negro they could find up in a tree.

No, libertarian morons, racism isn’t just some embarrassing quaint relic of our past that shouldn’t be discussed in polite company.  And I’m not talking about the somewhat less evil subtle racist attitudes that some of our own white relatives and acquaintances have - I’m talking cross-burning, swastika-wearing evil motherfuckers who would drop a nuke in the middle of Detroit right now if they thought they could actually get away with it.

So you say my scenario above is ridiculous and would never actually happen in America in 2010.  I wish I could truly believe that to be the case.  But in my own young lifetime, at least two black men (Donald and James Byrd) were lynched, literally lynched for no other reason than the color of their skin.

But I’ll be generous and give you the benefit of the doubt - let’s agree for the sake of argument that most people would think that my scenario would be fairly unlikely to occur.  On September 11, 2000, had anyone suggested that one day a bunch of deranged militant Saudis would fly hijacked jetliners into the World Trade Center in broad daylight, most Americans probably would have thought that such a notion was utterly ridiculous, the sort of thing that only tinfoil hat wearing delusionals and Jerry Bruckheimer would have conceived of.  I mean, seriously, who the fuck hijacks commercial jetliners with boxcutters and then flies them into massive skyscrapers?  Absurd.  Such a preposterous thing had never happened before, ever!!  Well, that is until that precise thing DID happen around 8:45AM EST on 9/11/01.

——==== CONT’D. ====——

Comment #87: DTG in STL  on  05/23  at  03:29 AM

——==== CONT’D. ====——

Back to Rand Paul’s vision for America.  Let’s just pretend our country has become so post-racial that an African-American family driving through Mississippi would probably never need to worry about being refused service because of their skin color.

But as we all know, in the real world, things often don’t work out precisely like we expect them to, so at some point, the scenario I described above or something just as relatively horrific WILL most likely eventually play itself out.

Then what?

What will you say to the parents whose daughter died because cruel racist business owners were legally allowed to discriminate against them because of their skin color?  WHAT WILL YOU SAY?  Shit happens?!?  Will the “invisible hand” magically bring their daughter back to life?  Do you suggest they sue the gas stations, restaurants, and and hotels who wouldn’t do business with them?  How would that work?  In your new America, what those businesses did was perfectly legal!  You can’t punish them for exercising their newly-restored legal right to refuse service to people because of their skin color.

Do we rewrite the CRA with a special little clause that says all private businesses are free to refuse service to anyone they want for any reason… except if it’s a poor black family whose daughter might die from heat exhaustion?  Being guaranteed the right to publicly humiliate the lowly negroes is perfectly fine, but we should really draw the line when it comes to causing their deaths, right?

That would be so generous of you. 

Hell, why don’t we just do away with those oppressive nanny-state drunk driving laws while we’re at it.  I mean, everybody knows that if some drunk asshole plows head on into your family crossing the street that the invisible hand of the market will eventually bring them back to life, right?

Stupid fucksticks.

Comment #88: DTG in STL  on  05/23  at  03:29 AM

Back to the main topic at hand… I think it is incredibly easy for Rand Paul and his twisted supporters to dismiss the potential negative repercussions that repealing Title II of the 1964 CRA would have.  I know he’s playing cutesy by saying, “I’m just talking hypotheticals here, we all know that the 1964 CRA isn’t going anywhere.”

The truth is, Dr. Paul knows damnwell that if such a repeal ever occurred, it would have virtually no impact on his freedoms, or on the freedoms of his base of supporters (who I’m guessing are probably more than 95% white.  The GOP still hasn’t completely throw in the towel yet on trying to hide their racist underbelly - Michael Steele epitomizes token hiring.  The man doesn’t have his job because he was the most qualified and the most capable, he has his job because he was the only one in the room that didn’t look like the others, and he could be used as a shield against accusations of institutionally accepted racism within the RNC.  TOKEN.

But Dr. Paul is barely interested in wooing African-Americans (and really, any sizeable ethnic minority) to join his movement.  He’s smart enough to see that even 100 Michael Steeles wouldn’t be enough to shield the GOP from being called out for their racist tactics and positions.

Paul’s gonna go for broke and put it all on white for the general election… all on angry white Kentucky voters who share Glenn Beck’s asanine attitudes towards racism and ethnic minorities, African-Americans in particular.

And sadly, even in 2010 - more than 45 AFTER the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 - it’s possible that Paul’s dogwhistle messaging to his teabag supporters could still be used to quietly convey the message to his racist white supporters that he’s on “their side”.

Comment #89: DTG in STL  on  05/23  at  03:55 AM

In that hell-hole of coding my original post got consumed so I am writing a new one, in special consideration of the long post by DTG.  Paul isn’t interested in little black girl’s brains, he is solely interested in money and power.  Race is an end to a means for him (though his father has supported racist causes, I may be discounting race too early.)  The whole libertarian argument is Laissez-Faire economics repackaged to look populist.  Replace the “liberties of business” with ‘government shouldn’t interfere” and the farce is over.  Even worse, most of the time they don’t even use the cover of “liberties” they just flat out admit it. 

Laissez-Faire economics weren’t wholly outlawed by the constitution but substantially neutered so the need for a newspeak-esque word to encapsulate it had to be developed. Paul exemplifies the horrific ideals that come out of such a dangerous theory.  His plan to hand the country over those with money and power throwing democracy and the republic to the wind in favor of oligarchical order is amazingly short-sighted but by injecting race into the equation he can keep his illusion going just long enough to get elected. 

To speak to DTG, the Adam Smith answer would be that Tort laws would then apply for the cause of her death.  But with the mass desire to curtail Tort by the business world it’s hard to believe they would even exist in Paul’s world.  I’m inclined to allow tort insurance through the government for key industries like medicine where the cost of a mistake can be career-ending but otherwise I see no reason Tort shouldn’t continue.  The little black hypothetical girl would get no justice in a libertarian world, she had no money, no power.  Businesses’ rights over the individual has become a corner-stone of society since the Railroad demanded Santa Clara Co. not charge them taxes on fencing and only in the 1960s did the CRA start reversing some of that standing.

The internet has democratized the world’s view more than ever and I see as it evolves the ability for corporations to control has started to become limited.  Once monolithic superpowers of business are being chipped away at by bloggers.  But while the democratization has happened the corporation has decided to play their hand by appealing to the aging white crowd.  Now this man represents the fight for the soul of the country.  Election or bust won’t decide it, but defeating him is a key to success and rejection of the corporate ownership of liberty.

Comment #90: Xeranar  on  05/23  at  04:29 AM

With reference to (Ayn) Rand, I think a much more important influence on her philosophy (such as it was) than Nietzsche came from the Austrian school of economists of the interwar years, mainly Hayek and von Mises. Most of her economic thought (such as it was) is just a water-downed plagiary of works by the various Austrian school economists/philosophers (I think there’s some really poor echoes of Karl Popper in her writings as well).
And I have to second atheist’s caveat (#73) concerning The Evil One’s blanket endorsement of Alexander Cockburn. I read Counterpunch quite regularly as well, and while I find most of the comments and articles there edifying and thought-provoking, I would say Alexander Cockburn is the only contributor whose writings should be taken with a grain of salt. While he may even have a point about the Conway/Paul race, it’s worth knowing that he’s rather unabashed global warming denier and he thinks peak oil is a myth (his argument for the latter is nothing more sophisticated than ‘Freeman Dyson said petroleum is produced by chemical processes in the earth’s core, and I agree’).

Comment #91: EdoBosnar  on  05/23  at  05:17 AM

Thank you for such a succinct and sensible summing up of “Libertarians and why they don’t make any sense.”

And I’ll get over the ‘60’s when [hypothetical you who is whining about it] give up the racism and sexism. Deal?

Comment #92: WereBear  on  05/23  at  09:46 AM

Nicely done. Critical thinking -at its best - as always
and miss the ever-recognizable Amanda writing voice,

Have been distracted onto other obligations.
[Completely off topic, fascinoma du jour from that field;
Pregnant ladies with HIV more infectious (to their male partners
if that needs to be said) than when not so. WTF?

So not nearly so fun as P-gon over here but
endlessly interesting nonetheless.

Best wishes to all…keep up the keepin’ up.
Tot siens

Comment #93: has_te  on  05/23  at  01:28 PM

has_te, I found this doing a Google Scholar search,  this would at least be a partial explanation of the finding you cite:

Pregnant females are susceptible to intracellular pathogens and are biased towards humoral rather than cell-mediated immunity. Since TH1 cytokines compromise pregnancy and TH2 cytokines are produced at the maternal-fetal interface, we hypothesize that these TH2 cytokines inhibit TH1 responses, improving fetal survival but impairing responses against some pathogens.

Comment #94: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/23  at  02:18 PM

DTG: Actually, the repeal of CRA would effect the freedom of Dr. Paul and his lily-white base.  They would be free to discriminate in their businesses, a freedom they do not now enjoy.  That they don’t have this freedom now is, for them, a problem.

Comment #95: Chocolate Covered Cotton  on  05/23  at  02:50 PM

Bitter Scribe - I still think that deciding what is and isn’t allowed purely by the effect isn’t what we (as a country) have decided to do.  Sure, it’s trivial to come up with actions prohibited by the CRA that have more of an impact than certain speech actions.  But it isn’t too much harder to come up with situations in which some action prohibited by the CRA has less impact than some of the very hateful speech we still allow in the US under the first amendment.

My point is that impact isn’t the line we use.  We don’t let some business say “I’m a tiny business with many viable competitors, so I should be allowed to discriminate by race because it won’t affect things.”  Instead, we say categorically that the right of the customer to not be racially discriminated against trumps the business’s right to conduct commerce in whatever fashion it chooses.

Likewise, we don’t say “Well, you’re the only newspaper in town, so you can’t publish racist editorials on the front page, whereas you could if people had a choice in local papers”.  Instead, we let freedom of the press trump the right to a racially unbiased press.

Now you could argue that I’m playing bait-and-switch here in that the right against being racially discriminated against in business transactions isn’t the same as the right to avoid racist opinions and speech.  And… okay, fair enough.  It’s hard to compare the situations, but I still think it’s useful to try to do so, because when libertarians get their shit together enough to start pushing back on this, they’re going to do so from a stance of “we’re all about freedom and individual rights”.  When they do, it’s useful to talk about *which* rights they’re talking about, and what they propose to do when various of those rights conflict.  And as a handy example, we have the CRA, in which the right to avoid racial discrimination was placed ahead of the right to conduct arbitrary commerce, but behind the right to freedom of speech or free expression of religion.

So any libertarian argument against the CRA becomes not “FREEDOM” (which most Americans generally support), but “freedom for arbitrary commerce” (or however they choose to phrase it), which even with a better phrasing is unlikely to be as popular as “freedom”.

Comment #96: Daniel Martin  on  05/23  at  03:45 PM

DTG: Actually, the repeal of CRA would effect the freedom of Dr. Paul and his lily-white base.  They would be free to discriminate in their businesses, a freedom they do not now enjoy.  That they don’t have this freedom now is, for them, a problem.

True enough… what I meant was that repeal of Title II of the CRA would never have an adverse impact on Dr. Paul or his supporters freedoms.  Absolutely it would be beneficial to their interests, but in selling his idea with a wink and smile, Dr. Paul is giving off the dogwhistle message, “Don’t worry white people… this won’t harm you a bit.”

It’s the same thing as SB 1070 in Arizona… the people who have been making the loudest noise about how it won’t harm law-abiding legal U.S. citizens all just happen to be white.  Pablo Sanchez, third generation U.S. citizen who doesn’t even have “papers” because he’s legally been an American citizen since the day he was born, well… who cares about him being illegally harrassed because he happens to be brown?

Oh, here’s another twist in the Arizona white rage - the state senator who proposed SB 1070 says that his next plan is to introduce legislation that will prohibit children born in the U.S. to illegal immigrants from obtaining U.S. citizenship upon birth. He’s calling it the “anchor babies” law.  Nevermind that the fact that it’s a right enshrined by the goddamned United States Constitution, and cannot be simply revoked by some inbred state legislators:

U.S. Constitution, Amendment XIV

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. <u>No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States</u>; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Only a U.S. Constitutional Amendment repealing the 14th Amendment could strip that right… good luck with that, assholes.

Comment #97: DTG in STL  on  05/23  at  04:17 PM

Here’s what I don’t get about Arizona:

They’re making racist laws.  Incredibly racist, no other way-of- looking at racist laws, and they’re saying “We’re not being racist”.  So, is it a definitional problem?  Do they just think “racist” is a synonym for “bad” and they’re making the statement “We’re not being bad people”?  Or are they just flat-out lying and thinking “Oh, well they’re writing laws that either explicitly discriminate, or alternately, are going to be used to discriminate, but if we say we’re NOT racist people will believe us?”  What. the. fuck?

Comment #98: Antigone  on  05/23  at  04:29 PM

They’re making racist laws.  Incredibly racist, no other way-of- looking at racist laws, and they’re saying “We’re not being racist”.  So, is it a definitional problem?  Do they just think “racist” is a synonym for “bad” and they’re making the statement “We’re not being bad people”?

You have to get into the mind of the privileged white wingnut to get it.  They work very hard to convince themselves that there is nothing racist about SB 1070, because they are totally incapable of empathizing with anyone who doesn’t look and think exactly like they do.

I tried explaining what precisely made the law racist to a wingnut relative recently.  I said, “Forget about the illegal immigrants for a second.  I’ll momentarily agree with you that they are super-duper evil lawbreakers that must be dealt with posthaste.  But what about the legal U.S. citizens who are Hispanic who will be forced to prove they are citizens at anytime, and should they forget to carry proper documantation, they could be detained, despite being natural-born U.S. citizens.  What about them?”

The response was typical wingnuttese… “Well, if they are really legal U.S. citizens, they’ve got nothing to worry about.”

I asked him again if he thought it was OK to require people to carry citizenship-proving documentation at all times when someone leaves the house.  I asked him if he carried his birth certificate everywhere he went.  He said, “No, but this is Missouri, so I don’t have to here.  But if lived in Arizona I would.”

Asked how he would react if he were ever detained because he once forget to carry his BC, he said, “Well, I’d have to accept that it was my fault for not carrying my BC with me.”

A very convenient answer, but I know that this relative was smart enough to know that it’s extremely unlikely that he or any other white person in Arizona will ever be stopped and required to produce a birth certificate by an officer.

Here’s where the disconnect occurs - because Governor Brewer says that this law “prohibits racial profiling”, the bill’s supporters try to argue that it won’t be disproportionately used against Hispanics unfairly compared to whites.  But all evidence points to the contrary… Arizona has moved in this direction precisely because of the huge rise in Hispanic population in their state, both legal and illegal.  To seriously argue that law enforcement authorities aren’t going to be more prone to target Hispanics with this law compared to whites is either willfully naive, or just a patent lie.

I’m going with the latter.  They know that this law is going to affect legal U.S. citizens who are Hispanic disproportionately compared to white people, legal or not.  And to them, that’s a feature, not a bug.  But so long as Governor Brewer says that profiling won’t be used (despite the fact that everyone knows that it will), they think that lets them off the hook.

It’s the same sort of twisted logic that goes into them telling you about all the African-Americans and Hispanics that they admire to try to convince you how “not racist” they are… people like Clarence Thomas, Armstrong Williams, Alan Keyes, Marco Rubio.  See, they have black and brown friends, too!  Nevermind the fact that the only black or brown people who they will express admiration for are the black and brown people who constantly work to undermine the broader interests of their own ethnic groups.  If you are African-American or Hispanic and are willing to tell privileged white wingnut assholes how much the rest of your ethnic group sucks, they’ll let you come to their parties - but please be discrete and sit in the back of the room.  Better yet, make yourself useful and put on this bowtie - those billionaire GOP donors are running low on champagne.

Comment #99: DTG in STL  on  05/23  at  05:18 PM

The response was typical wingnuttese… “Well, if they are really legal U.S. citizens, they’ve got nothing to worry about.”

Oh Great FSM, I HATE that answer!  For the love of Christ, why do they not understand things like “privacy rights” or “reasonable restriction on law enforcement”?  They don’t see to get that just because THIS law wouldn’t IMMEDIATELY effect you, why it would be a bad idea.  If you’re not doing anything wrong, why should you care, right?  I don’t understand it- they pull out completely ridiculous slippery slope arguments when it comes to gay marriage (DOGS! CATS! PIGS! DUCKS!) but they can’t see the actual, real harm that eroding our privacy and our rights against officers does.

It’s a total HEADDESK moment.

Comment #100: Antigone  on  05/23  at  07:17 PM

DTG:

Only a U.S. Constitutional Amendment repealing the 14th Amendment could strip that right… good luck with that, assholes.

A fact conveniently ignored by many a person supporting state-level 10th Amendment acts. Most don’t care about the 14th, and some seem to think it wasn’t legitimately passed to begin with.

Comment #101: BrianX  on  05/23  at  07:19 PM

Only a U.S. Constitutional Amendment repealing the 14th Amendment could strip that right… good luck with that, assholes.

As W. Bush once said, the Consitution is “just a goddamn piece of paper”.  Birthright citizenship is going the way of the dinasour and nothing is going to stop that.

Comment #102: Billy from FLA  on  05/23  at  07:53 PM

Nietzsche, on the other hand, appears to have had one unrequited love affair in his life, with the woman (Lou Salome) passing him over quickly.  He would have been a lot better off if he’d spent his time quietly jerking off to himself over the Gor books.

Comment #103: scratchy888  on  05/23  at  11:21 PM

Hi all. Been reading this blog for months now and it is at and above the level of Glenn Greenwald in morality, grounded ideology and intelectual honesty. It is missing just a tad bit of practical experience to solutions.
I have been successfully arguing with glenn-beckians and occasionaly winning using thier thinking and values, no matter how opposed my brain was to using it with democratic and moral values.
The top value here that Paul is advocating is “private property rights”, It should trump every other value that exists in the society, even crime. If private property rights are above the crime then owner can protect any crime within his establishment like murder, rape, discrimination, etc and owners can allow or not police investigation of it, even IRS accounting audit. All in all thats how mafia works. Not to mention that owner will have to use government provided police to enforce the discrimination if person discriminated upon is not willing to leave and that grows the government. 

Nietzshe’s “natural law” has been described long time ago in civilizations that had survived long enough time to reach such revelations. One of them is the most known, Bible, which i view as directions, handling instructions for better and easier life experience. The bible is a great description of human motivations and natural laws, more interested in social interactions then physical health prescription. “natural law” of human is described as Seven Deadly Sins that we all develop in childhood if there is no parent caretaker to teach us what is bad for us. Those are Pride, Lust, Greed, Envy Etc. They shape all our lives in various forms and strenght.

It is going to take some more time untill our civilization reaches the same level of knowledge about humanity as Bible already holds. It will take correct, widely accepted, comprehension of it to understand the full potential of it. All those Seven Deadly Sins prevent us to comprehend it fully as Nietzshe and many others try to.

Comment #104: criticaltinkerer  on  05/24  at  07:20 AM

Nietzshe’s “natural law” has been described long time ago in civilizations that had survived long enough time to reach such revelations.

Like my mothers’ Chinese Civilization, the only continuous civilization from 6000 years ago to the present?

The bible is a great description of human motivations and natural laws, more interested in social interactions then physical health prescription.

Yes, and the laws in the Old Testament are helpful for a pre-Industrial Society living in a hot, dry, harsh and unforgiving environment, not so much where we have medicine instead of prayer and sacrifices to JAWEH as before.

BTW, you have more credibility if you capitalized Bible and didn’t misspell the name of a German philosopher whose name is visible in this comment thread.

I’ll close with a little posthumous Mark Twain, as his unexpurgated biography is coming out this year, from the end of Letter VII of his “Letters from the Earth:

I will tell you a pleasant tale which has in it a touch of pathos. A man got religion, and asked the priest what he must do to be worthy of his new estate. The priest said, “Imitate our Father in Heaven, learn to be like him.” The man studied his Bible diligently and thoroughly and understandingly, and then with prayers for heavenly guidance instituted his imitations. He tricked his wife into falling downstairs, and she broke her back and became a paralytic for life; he betrayed his brother into the hands of a sharper, who robbed him of his all and landed him in the almshouse; he inoculated one son with hookworms, another with the sleeping sickness, another with gonorrhea; he furnished one daughter with scarlet fever and ushered her into her teens deaf, dumb, and blind for life; and after helping a rascal seduce the remaining one, he closed his doors against her and she died in a brothel cursing him. Then he reported to the priest, who said that that was no way to imitate his Father in Heaven. The convert asked wherein he had failed, but the priest changed the subject and inquired what kind of weather he was having, up his way.

(cont)

Comment #105: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/24  at  12:23 PM

From Letter X:

Will you examine the Deity’s morals and disposition and conduct a little further? And will you remember that in the Sunday school the little children are urged to love the Almighty, and honor him, and praise him, and make him their model and try to be as like him as they can? Read:

    1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
    2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites: afterward shalt thou be gathered unto thy people….
    7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
    8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
    9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
    10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.
    11 And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.
    12 And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
    13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
    14 And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle.
    15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
    16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord.
    17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
    18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
    19 And do ye abide without the camp seven days: whosoever hath killed any person, and whosoever hath touched any slain, purify both yourselves and your captives on the third day, and on the seventh day.
    20 And purify all your raiment, and all that is made of skins, and all work of goats’ hair, and all things made of wood.
    21 And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord commanded Moses….
    25 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
    26 Take the sum of the prey that was taken, both of man and of beast, thou, and Eleazar the priest, and the chief fathers of the congregation:
    27 And divide the prey into two parts; between them that took the war upon them, who went out to battle, and between all the congregation:
    28 And levy a tribute unto the Lord of the men of war which went out to battle….
    31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses.
    32 And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,
    33 And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,
    34 And threescore and one thousand asses,
    35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of woman that had not known man by lying with him….
    40 And the persons were sixteen thousand; of which the Lord’s tribute was thirty and two persons.
    41 And Moses gave the tribute, which was the Lord’s heave offering, unto Eleazar the priest, as the Lord commanded Moses….
    47 Even of the children of Israel’s half, Moses took one portion of fifty, both of man and of beast, and gave them unto the Levites, which kept the charge of the tabernacle of the Lord; as the Lord commanded Moses.

    10 When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim peace unto it….
    13 And when the Lord thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
    14 But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.
    15 Thus shalt thou do unto all the cities which are very far off from thee, which are not of the cities of these nations.
    16 But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:

Comment #106: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/24  at  12:25 PM

@Dark Avenger. You are forgetting that Bible have another part about Jesus who explained the real nature of the first part and the rest of it. But you did not make a sufficient attempt to comprehend the Bible but childishly go for literal meaning just as any fundamentalist devoid of empathy and incapable of understanding a sentence with consideration on the life situations.

Comment #107: criticaltinkerer  on  05/24  at  08:37 PM

but childishly go for literal meaning just as any fundamentalist devoid of empathy and incapable of understanding a sentence with consideration on the life situations.

Childish?  Is there any way other than the literal meaning of what I excerpted to indicate anything but that it describes a merciless battle and a scorched earth policy as in here?

But of the cities of these people, which the Lord thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth

As for the rest, you’re displaying as much smugness and superiority as any fundamentalist I’ve ever encountered, and I’ll give you another passage , your exegesis would be of interest:

Matthew 7, 1-5:

Judge not, that ye be not judged.
For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged:
and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye;
and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.

Comment #108: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/25  at  12:50 AM

Peter @31:
You are correct to a point ie Chernobyl being similar to the BP spill - But the common point was not engineering error, it was corruption and greed.  It was not an engineering error to choose to exceed depth, use sea water rather than drilling mud, not hook up and test to verify failsafes.  Cheaping out may not have an effect every time; but eventually, when every step has been done on the cheap and without regard to possible impact only because it is the easy and/or least costly way, eventually there will be a disaster.
As an engineer, I am offended.  These are management decisions, not engineering ones.  Every engineer who signed off to these faulty items should be prosecuted and have their licensing revoked.  Any manager who signed off on these against engineering requirements should be procecuted as well.  Don’t even get me started on the asleep at the switch regulators.

Comment #109: helen w. h.  on  05/25  at  01:15 PM

I think Amanda makes an excellent point that the government programs favored by libertarians are those used to protect private property and preserve market freedoms, all while they poo-poo public parks, public transportation and the like (and that this inconsistency exposes libertarians as not actually in favor of government’s avoiding distributive questions altogether: libertarians favor a particular distribution of wealth and resources and government’s role in reinforcing that distribution).

An ideologically consistent defense of preserving individual choice free of all government coercion would not privilege any market freedoms whatsoever, except to the extent that free marketeers can bargain for them, and have the power to bargain for them and protect them, without any government to restrain private coercion at all. But once government is deployed to protect capital markets and markets for goods and services from private coercion, why can’t government also protect other important values, like the equality of citizens and protection from race-based discrimination? To make a distinction among values the government ought or ought not to protect, you have to endorse additional principles of justice (of the way things ought to be and what government ought to do) other than just a total hostility to government interference with free individual choice in all cases.

Comment #110: Luke  on  05/25  at  03:35 PM

Luke, you expose the real, the dark side of Libertarianism. It’s about corporate welfare, socialism for the deserving, as long as Libertarians get to chose who is deserving.

I know too many young white males who want to have this kind of system oh, so, badly. They have no idea what they make themselves look like by exposing these desires in conversations. It’s about a lack of empathy, an willful ignorance of other people’s needs, about attempting to cloak their greed in lofty sounding concepts, not understanding that others see right through them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

“You know, the only trouble with capitalism is capitalists.
They’re too damn greedy.”

Herbert Hoover, President

“The modern conservative is engaged in one of man’s oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.”

John Kenneth Galbraith, economist

Comment #111: LCforevah  on  05/25  at  04:14 PM

It’s clear by now that Libertarianism and all its branches and inter-weavings are going to be studied, and debated, and puzzled over from now until November’s elections. I’m far from a political novice - but Libertarianism is just now getting its moment in the sun, and it’s still not entirely understood by ANYONE in the world of mainstream politics, it seems.

We’re trying to approach it from a number of different political angles here: http://bit.ly/baBtbx It’s our thought that by getting Libertarian, Democratic, Republican, conservative AND liberal points of view, we can better get to the bottom of what is really a pretty interesting ideological debate…

Without the usual yelling and screaming and talking points.

Comment #112: Yeggo  on  05/25  at  05:22 PM

Yeggo, I wouldn’t be calling this a moment in the sun, rather, it’s a full blown scandal. Be careful what you wish for. I do believe that this will bring the kind of scrutiny that will show Libertarianism to be the juvenile farce that it is.

Comment #113: LCforevah  on  05/25  at  05:47 PM
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