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Why this debate won’t be settled already

ScienceSex

Okay, color me amused.  There was a time when the standard feminist response to new evidence demonstrating that the G spot doesn’t exist—-at least in the sense of being a real spot that has a specific sensitivity, like the clitoris—-would have been to say, “Of course.  The G spot was invented in response to feminist skepticism about the ‘maturity’ of the vaginal orgasm over the clitoral one, to justify men who didn’t want to engage in stimulation outside of the pump and dump.”  Which is why I was amused to see Mary Elizabeth Williams at Broadsheet get ruffled about a new study, involving twins, that demonstrated that the genetic arguments for the existence of a G spot have produced nada.  I will say that some of the statements from the researchers incline me to worry about their objectivity—-they are very committed to the idea that the subjective experience that could all be in your head is not “real” somehow, and they have strong opinions on the injustice of G-spot pressure—-but hey, I’m willing to believe that there’s no G spot if that’s what the research finally concludes, after multiple, rigorous studies of course. 

Feminist willingness to entertain the reality of the G spot is definitely an innovation of the past couple of decades, and it’s for good reasons.  One reason is that a lot of women stimulate this part of their vaginas while masturbating, and also that many lesbian-identified women report G-spot orgasms.  This would incline one to think that there’s an explanation for reporting of this beyond just men wanting to believe and women needing/wanting to please men.  But I think the overwhelming reason is that the desire to believe women when they report subjective experiences is ascendant, while willingness to believe that women might trick themselves into believing something because it’s what men want to hear is descendant in feminist thought right now.  Women say they have G spot orgasms, we believe women, end of story.  I respect where this desire comes from.  Being a woman, I’m well aware of how much your ability to perceive objective reality is dismissed under the rubric that bitches are crazy.  Especially when it comes to biology, there’s a long-standing, ongoing problem of women’s experiences being dismissed as being “all in their head”, particularly when you’re talking about issues such as chronic pain.  Dismissals of the G spot can and often do come from that urge to believe that women are especially stupid and out of touch and probably mental. (To be fair, many feminists still are skeptical of the G spot, because so many defenses of it come from those trying to guilt women about desiring clitoral stimulation.) The other reason many feminists have moved into the pro G spot camp is because the amount of work it takes to produce that kind of orgasm puts mere 20 minutes bouts of cunnilingus to shame, and so you can’t really say devotees of it are doing so because it appeals to male laziness.

But what this struggle ends up doing is obscuring that there’s a third possibility, one that neither G spot defenders or dismissers seem willing to entertain, which is that the women’s experiences can be totally real and also that there’s no such thing as the G-spot. I mean, it’s not like it’s behind your ears or something; it’s right by the clit, and inside the vagina, which is no slouch in the sensitivity department.  Considering that some women can orgasm with very little stimulation or often just by willing themselves to come hands-free—-and that both men and women are capable of orgasming in their sleep without masturbation—-then it’s certainly well within the range of possibility that women who get the specific G spot stimulation can have an orgasm without there actually being a specific G spot. 

I suppose I see why this possibility (which I’m not married to or anything, just suggesting is a likely possibility) bothers people, and it’s for the same reason that the placebo effect is unnerving.  There’s still a shame attached to the idea that something is “all in your head”, as if that makes it less real.  But if you think about it, it doesn’t, because all experience happens subjectively.  And by all, I mean all—-the most extreme example is that you can’t hurt a corpse by shooting it, but there are other ones as well.  Pain feels very different depending on context, and it’s been said that hangovers feel worse if you did something stupid while drunk.  Our tendency is to want to say this experience is less real than that because our brains are constantly recalibrating how we feel something, but it’s all equally real.  If someone is more likely to have a G spot orgasm because she believes in the G spot, then that doesn’t mean her orgasm was one teeny bit less real. 


More power to ‘em, I say. For those of us whose experiments with the G spot have resulted in skepticism and annoyance, there’s a strong desire to believe that we’re all being hoodwinked by the Sex Police that want all women to perform like porn stars, i.e. getting off in visually exciting ways that are completely penis-centered.  (With “Deep Throat” winning an all-time award for wishing women had clitorises in their throats.)  But intellectually, this desire is stifled by the amusement of watching someone make the “come here” motion inside a vagina until he’s about to pass out from boredom while you’re wondering if you’re broken or something.  It’s interesting to consider if the G spot only occurs in some women, which would explain the huge gap between experiences without further shaming of women who don’t have G spot orgasms.  But what this research indicates is that if this is true, then it isn’t genetic.  I’m personally quite comfortable with the possibility that the G spot “exists” only in women that find the process of stimulating it exciting instead of boring, but of course, that kind of thing is culturally difficult to swallow.

The problem is that if the difference between having a G spot and not having one is suggestibility to the possibility—-i.e. that you have orgasms by stimulating a specific part of your body when other women don’t, because you believe that you can—-then the shame would transfer from those who don’t to those who do, who would be falsely led to believe that it’s all in their heads and they’re crazy or something.  This is due to the aforementioned weirdness people have about believing that what’s in your head is real, plus an giant dose of sexism.  It’s really too bad, because I think people are coming around to accepting that what is in someone’s head is extremely important to the final result of orgasm, and that this can vary wildly.  If this dude is excited by lingerie, but that dude prefers plain nudity, no one would claim that one of them had an orgasm that wasn’t “real”.  But then again, they’re both dudes, so that’s the problem. When it comes to women, we want the body below the neck to be everything; the possibility that what’s in your head is the most important thing of all is unnerving.  Part of it is that society isn’t quite up to the task of taking women’s brains as seriously as they do men’s brains.  But part of it is that “it’s all in your head” is used to dismiss the reality of women’s experiences, even though something that happens in your head is quite real.

Maybe one day someone will conduct a responsible, objective, controlled study and get to the bottom of this.  Ironically, this might actually go a long way to getting around the “damned if you do/damned if you don’t” dilemma that creates all this angst, because the odds are very high that a responsible, well-researched theory will end up validating both those with and those withouts’ real experiences.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:47 PM • (74) Comments

You and your silly listening to scientific evidence. Pshaw! Next you’ll be talkign about global warming and evolution like it’s real, just because an overwhelming majority of the data supports them.

Comment #1: Keith  on  01/04  at  07:57 PM

Well, to be clear, something is definitely happening.  The strongest possibility, as Heather Corinna explained to me in Twitter, is that it’s just an extension of the clitoris, which is huge underneath the surface and notoriously all over the map in responsiveness to stimulation….often depending on what’s going on in your head, of course. Shockingly, like penises, clits are more sensitive if you’re into the person you’re fucking or the fantasy playing in your head matters to you.

Comment #2: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/04  at  08:12 PM

I get really irritated by sloppy science, and moreso by sloppy write-ups of science. This study suggests there is no genetic substantiation for a g-spot. The same is true about fingerprints, right? Clicking through to the BBC article, the researchers are pretty clearly NOT calling the g-spot a myth.

Give me a second to find an article debunking astrology, and then we can all debate whether or not psychology is “real science.”

Comment #3: humanadverb  on  01/04  at  08:19 PM

Totally.

If you aren’t into the mental space required for enjoying a touch, that touch will not ‘work’, aside from autonomic responses from erectile tissue.

The G-spot need not be an actual organ to be an important method in stimulation.

Comment #4: Crissa  on  01/04  at  08:20 PM

A lot of nonsense is being made of this one way or the other. Anyone who has had more than 1 sexual partner should notice that what “works” on one partner may not “work” on another.
Setting aside any cultural issues (sexually repressed vs liberated societies) or personal history (religious issues around sexual shame or past sexual experiences/trauma)  and looking at just the physical differences, some people are more physically sensitive to touch in some areas than in others.
So for me it matters little if there is a specific “spot” inside the cervix, the back of the ears or neck, or the soles of the feet. Half the fun of being with a new sexual partner is exploring each other’s body and noting their response to each touch, caress or kiss.
If some doctor wants to interview 2000 women and concludes that nibbling on the back of the neck produces no response then good for him, but I’ll keep exploring as each human body is quite unique in its own way.

Comment #5: Manostorgo  on  01/04  at  08:22 PM

Sorry for being cranky. But yeah… every time I find myself in a conversation about what “normal” sex looks like or biological imperatives around sex, it always ends up feeling like a proxy conversation around politics.

Any belief about sex that leaves you lying there worried that you’re broken is basically wrong.

Comment #6: humanadverb  on  01/04  at  08:25 PM

I read a news report about this study, where one researcher suggested the G-Spot was merely “subjective,” and I had a few problems with it:

1) The study itself was based on survey results rather than on actual examinations of anatomy.

2) Twins, however much DNA they have in common, don’t have identical sex lives.

3) On the other hand, if identical twins are expected to share all the same anatomical traits, such that comparing their experiences could be used to determine the very existence of a certain anatomical structure, then maybe it should be expected that their similar brains would produce “similar” orgasms whether the G-Spot objectively exists or not.

Comment #7: Nil  on  01/04  at  08:27 PM

The problem with the whole situation is simple: it’s highly unlikely that half the female population has an organ the other half doesn’t.  It’s not impossible, but the likelier explanation is that everyone is sensitive in this area, but to varying degrees, or that the belief in or desire to believe in the G spot creates fantasies about it that in turn create orgasms (basically, the way every other orgasm works).  I suspect it’s a combination of these two factors, and that for the half of women that don’t get off on this at all, the action of stimulating it does nothing to stimulate them mentally, and so it doesn’t work. 

Of course, like I said in the piece, it’s extremely funny to me that the G spot, which was first touted as a way for men to avoid having to spend time stimulating a woman without getting stimulated themselves, has now become this extremely time-consuming sexual party trick, which is about as far away from the original point of touting it as you can get.

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/04  at  08:40 PM

A lot of nonsense is being made of this one way or the other. Anyone who has had more than 1 sexual partner should notice that what “works” on one partner may not “work” on another.

Hell, the *same* person may have different reactions to stimuli at different times or stages of life.  I can’t be the only woman whose sexual response changed dramatically after giving birth, for example.

Comment #9: Leely  on  01/04  at  08:43 PM

humanadverb, I don’t wish to go extreme in the department of having a good idea what’s normal being a bad thing.  A lot of the time, knowing what’s true of people in general can be super beneficial.  For instance, if you’re not orgasming, it can be super helpful to know that your boyfriend is wrong, and most women need external stimulation to get off.  And if something does seem “broken”, it might be a sign of ill health that should be checked out.  Someone who has a strong odor or something shouldn’t be douching or ashamed, but if it’s genuinely strong, that could mean an infection or an STD.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/04  at  08:43 PM

I’m thankfull to humanadverb.  I agree with the post and all, but I was constantly having the thought that “these people think a g-spot can be determined genetically (either by genes or mendellian analysis of phenoptypes)?  Are they fools?” buzzing in the back of my head.  It’s reassuring that the writup was a misinterpretation.  Not to mention that there are just a whole bunch of organs down there that rely on dopaminergic reward pathways to signal success in operation, and they all can be involved in sexual stimulation—and then there is just a mess of connective tissue down there as well.  As in you might be playing a violin, but maybe a quartet, or a chorus, or an orchestra instead when you’re acting dirty [scarcasm].  Put in simpler terms, there is a quite easily confirmed G-Spot Effect that is being confused with an actual G-Spot.  Reductionism is both the savior and doomer of Science!

And I resolve, yet again, NEVER to read ANYTHING about SCIENCE and SEX in a topic again.  At least in magazines put where idiots can get at it.

Comment #11: shah8  on  01/04  at  08:50 PM

You make a good point, and “well, it is just how I am!” can be a gross powerplay tactic between a couple… I’ve been there with that.

I’m splitting the difference a bit between “normal” and general knowledge about sex—what’s common, what might be a problem or a warning sign, the biology. It is very important to know that it is common for girls not to have vaginal orgasms. Or to know that female ejaculation, while not particularly common, doesn’t mean you need to run to the doctor. “Normal” is a comforting word, but I get prickly when I hear it applied to sex.

I’m pro-information. It is one of the keys to undermining those beliefs that leave you thinking you’re broken.

Comment #12: humanadverb  on  01/04  at  08:57 PM

As a nurse specializing in sexual health, I would like to recommend Dr. Helen O’ Connells study on female anatomy and the clitoris. Her findings conclude that the clitoris is about 20 times larger than we have been thougt to think about it. And that the clitoris consist of erectile tissue/nervestrings that surronds the whole vaginal tract, and towards the anus. This explains a lot of subjective/objective sexual experiences. A vaginal orgasm (“g-spot”) is actually a clitoris orgasm, only stimulated from the inside. Sorry for the bad english, hope you all got my point. This is actually old knowledge, but has still not found its way to the common anatomybooks or the newspapers.

Better explained here :

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg15921455.500-the-truth-about-women.html?full=true

Greetings from Norway

Comment #13: tinaballerina  on  01/04  at  09:00 PM

This report, aside from the points that humanadverb points out, is bullshit. I used to teach workshops on “eating out” women. As Amanda points out, the clitoris is actually shockingly extensive througout a woman’s sexual organ. The G spot, according to the best guesses these days, is said to be located in the spongy material that surrounds and undergirds the urethra. In all honesty, the anatomical evidence for a specific organ for the G spot is inconclusive.

That being said, women can have numerous kinds of orgasm. Whether we call a specific kind of orgasm a G spot orgasm, or THE BIG ONE, or THE MYTH or what-have-you, it does exist. I have given numerous women G spot orgasms, regardless of what some “controlled study” argues. And aside from all the rhetoric that Amanda points to in the OP (none of which I have ever looked at, given my disdain of obviously ideological interpretations of sexuality) about it being associated with the penis—it is very rare to have one of these orgasms by vaginal stimulation alone. I have not done it. It necessitates, for the most part, a multiple stimulation environment: at least clit and gspot stimulation. In my own experience, however, only cunnilingus and manual stimulation have achieved it. It exists, whatever we call it and however we want to justify its existence—in the mind, or in the body, or in “love” or in the fucking aether.

Having had many and extensive sexual experiences and having looked at a lot of the history of sexuality in scholarship, I have come to the conclusion that we know very little about it. Foucault’s conclusions in the history of sexuality were that our repression of sex is a myth that allows us produce more and more and more sexuality under the guise of liberating ourselves. To my mind, either the repression or the liberation of sex falls on the same spectrum such that it orders (in my opinion) sexuality so much that we haven’t even begun to have the language or conceptual clarity to think about it. All of the issues that Amanda talks about are significantly more of what sexuality is today: the attempt to order subjectivity in certain ways for certain gains. In the 19th century as Foucault points out it was for the construction of a bourgeoisie, today I think it has more to do with late-capitalism than anything. All of the anxieties we have about sexuality whether to repress it or free it all fit into the mode of desire-production that allows us to sell sex.

The whole thing is a big stupid mess that I try to steer clear of and just attempt to make my own way by stepping outside of contemporary understandings. I have only met with variable success on this front.

Comment #14: Dharmaserf  on  01/04  at  09:01 PM

Scientists are also finding out that hysteria is real: New York Times - Is Hysteria Real? Brain Images Say Yes.  We don’t know what to do with people’s subjective experiences, especially women’s.  The best advice I got on the topic was from a neurologist who told me that if your medical problem can be objectively tested and measured, Western medicine is the way to go.  If not, you are going to be on a journey and need to explore all options.

How you handle this while fending off the woo, I don’t know.

Comment #15: East of Weston  on  01/04  at  09:02 PM

Whether you call it “G spot” or “back of the clitoris” I’ve experienced orgasms from that spot—but it’s not an excuse for the myth of “vaginal orgasm,” because it’s been the rare penis to hit that spot, in my experience.

Or hand that gets just the right angle.

Comment #16: judybrowni  on  01/04  at  09:07 PM

some people are more physically sensitive to touch in some areas than in others.

Not to mention that different people’s bodies fit together in different ways. 

What Amanda describes in comment #2 is what I thought was the ultimate consensus: female erectile tissue is way more complicated than we thought. 

Also, not to overshare, but srsly science journalists, do not TELL me that I’m not experiencing something that I know I’m experiencing.  It really doesn’t matter to me if the g-spot is a discrete sexual organ, an extension of the clitoris, or is something that doesn’t exist medically per se but is our agreed-upon way of talking about how women can get off from penetration.  It feels good, dammit!  I always had issues with The Myth Of The Vaginal Orgasm, btw.

Comment #17: The Opoponax  on  01/04  at  09:11 PM

Of course, like I said in the piece, it’s extremely funny to me that the G spot, which was first touted as a way for men to avoid having to spend time stimulating a woman without getting stimulated themselves, has now become this extremely time-consuming sexual party trick, which is about as far away from the original point of touting it as you can get.

Well yeah, when people are too invested in idea of how sex “should” work rather than how it *does* work for their particular partner, this happens. If I’m having sex and vaginal stimulation clearly isn’t doing much for my partner, I’ll move on. You just really have to avoid generalities, but sex is one of the parts of our lives that’s still very, very susceptible to generalities.

Comment #18: Triplanetary  on  01/04  at  09:11 PM

I think it’s most likely that there is some kind of physical structure that provides the possibility for a particular area inside the vagina to be extra sensitive, but some people get off on having it stimulated and some people don’t.  Just like some people get off on deep penetration and some find it painful, some people get off on oral sex and some find it boring, etc.

I really don’t think you can judge something as a valid or invalid method of getting off based on the politics of who talks about it.  I’m annoyed by arguments that the G spot does or does not exist based on whether you think PIV sex should be how the owner of the V gets off.  Those arguments on both sides really do deny the experiences of people who do or do not get off by having an area on the top inside of their vaginas stimulated.

It’s really okay to just say “I don’t get off on G-spot stimulation,” just like it’s okay to say “I don’t get off on oral sex” or “I don’t get off on anal stimulation” or “I don’t get off on PIV”—or that you do get off on any of those things.  Do your attitudes about sex influence how you get off?  Absolutely.  Can you make yourself get off or not the way you “should” get off or not by willing it hard enough?  Sometimes, but not usually.

I agree that having a good idea of what’s “normal”—in the sense of what happens frequently in the population, not in the sense of “if you’re not normal you’re broken and wrong”—can be useful for figuring out what you might try if you’re not enjoying the kind of sex you’re having.  It can actually help you figure out that you’re not broken if you don’t like PIV, or don’t like anal, or whatever, to know that X amount of people don’t get off on that.

But just because most women need clitoral stimulation to get off, no one would say that vaginal orgasms don’t exist.  It really irritates me that people go around pronouncing that the G-spot doesn’t exist because they’ve found some/most people don’t get off that way.

Of course, when people think that “the G-spot exists” means that they/others should necessarily get off that way, that’s just as irritating.

Comment #19: snowmentality  on  01/04  at  09:23 PM

It really irritates me that people go around pronouncing that the G-spot doesn’t exist because they’ve found some/most people don’t get off that way.

Yeah, isn’t this sort of like saying that left-handedness doesn’t exist because most people are righties?

Comment #20: The Opoponax  on  01/04  at  09:26 PM

The definition of “g-spot” used in the study is hopelessly confused.

Were these women talking about a specific anatomical structure, or a capacity to orgasm from a particular type of stimulation? Even if you assume that the g-spot is a discrete anatomical structure, it’s presumably possible to have one and not know about it.

Besides which, people have orgasms from all kinds of of physical and mental stimulation. You don’t need a special organ to account for every orgasmic capacity. Some women can orgasm through fantasy alone without any physical stimulation.

Even if there’s no g-spot organ, it’s a known fact that some women like having the front wall of their vagina stimulated and have orgasms that way.

Comment #21: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  01/04  at  09:28 PM

...and some people really like nipple stimulation, or…

I mean, what snowmentality said.

Comment #22: lonespark  on  01/04  at  09:29 PM

Heterosex is soooooo complicated!  I can just imagine you people in the bedroom, each with an armload of flashlights and blueprints and instruction manuals. “Insert Tab A in Slot B”. God, I’m glad to be gay. wink

Comment #23: rea  on  01/04  at  10:03 PM

Heh… I think the thought has crossed many a hetero’s mind, rea.

Comment #24: humanadverb  on  01/04  at  10:07 PM

there’s an actual debate about this? look, if you want to think there’s a “G” spot, and it helps you get off, who the hell am i (or anyone) to argue with you? i’m not saying there is or isn’t, i’ve not a clue either way. but if thinking there is helps you have an orgasm, then you go girl!

i’m convinced my wife’s “G” spot is her nipples, a couple of licks and she’s off to another planet! fortunately for me, i happen to love girl nipples!

Comment #25: cpinva  on  01/04  at  10:13 PM

All sorts of variety exists in women, but I’ve long doubted the existence of an actual spot where women can get non-clitoral orgasms.  I’ve come to the conclusion, based on some careful research, that there is, instead of a spot, a Grafenburg region.

Comment #26: 3letterjon  on  01/04  at  10:29 PM

but hey, I’m willing to believe that there’s no G spot if that’s what the research finally concludes, after multiple, rigorous studies of course.

Hey, am I the only one who read that and thought, “is she volunteering?”

C’mon, ‘fess up, Pandagonians!

Comment #27: seeker6079  on  01/04  at  10:36 PM

But just because most women need clitoral stimulation to get off, no one would say that vaginal orgasms don’t exist. 

Oh come on, sure we would. Do you believe in scrotal orgasms, prostate orgasms, anal orgasms, and of course the lowly penile orgasm? Do you talk about them in those terms? Because maybe you do, but nobody else does.

That is why we say that there is, in fact, no such thing as a “vaginal orgasm” or a “clitoral orgasm,” and the fact that people seriously talk about them in those terms is a remnant of the fetishization and (if I may) othering of female sexuality. Women have orgasms. What parts of our genitals are in contact with what else, confers absolutely no mystical essense upon the orgasm. If you come when someone nibbles on your ear, are you having an “aural orgasm”? If you come when you’re kissing someone, are you having a “labile orgasm”? No. No, you aren’t.

We don’t segment men’s orgasms into these misleading, creepy, patronizing and compartmentalizing little terms, and it’s not because men don’t come in varied and interesting ways.

Comment #28: sophonisba  on  01/04  at  11:08 PM

It’s really okay to just say “I don’t get off on G-spot stimulation,” just like it’s okay to say “I don’t get off on oral sex” or “I don’t get off on anal stimulation” or “I don’t get off on PIV”

Welllllll, I think what soph points out changes it.  The problem is that the G spot is something that women feel they have to have on top of PIV, oral, and often anal.  But since it’s not actually physiologically different than a clitoral, “not liking it” is actually pretty different.  It’s closer to preferring being on top to missionary—-same thing, different way to roll it.

And that’s why women feel pressured.  The cultural invention of a G spot as a separate organ made women feel that it was an entirely different sex act that they should have to incorporate, like anal, oral, or PIV.  And it’s really not.  So women who find that it feels like what it is—-stimulating inside the vagina, which is less fun for many and no fun for those who really need direct clitoral stimulation—-are made to feel broken.

Comment #29: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/04  at  11:24 PM

Which is to say that I’m not disagreeing the experience is real.  I’m just pointing out that since women’s psychological experiences are discounted, the “G spot” had to be constructed as what it biologically isn’t, which is a separate organ that therefore every woman has, and if she doesn’t, then she’s a prude or whatever.  And maybe I’m wrong and it’s there and all the measurements to find it have been inadequate or whatever.  But I think the likelier explanation is the act of digging around in there is erotic to some women, and perhaps they have nerve structures, etc.  I’m actually leaning on the former, again in part because it still creates this notion that women who don’t enjoy that particular form of stimulation have inadequate bodies.  The same woman can be unbelievably sensitive on one occasion, and take forever to come the next, and her nerve structure doesn’t change dramatically in that time.

Comment #30: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/04  at  11:27 PM

I fail to see why something that is “all in our head” would be any less valid as a sexual experience.  Isn’t all sexuality in our heads?  Why else do some people get off on rubber or vikings or the Jonas brothers (ick)—all things that clearly didn’t exist when we were evolving our sexual response? I mean, yes, certain organs like the clitoris are more reliable sources of pleasure than others (elbow, for instance), but the interplay between your thought process and the actual physical stimulation is so complicated that “proving” an area is/not the source of pleasure is a fools errand.  Why does the G-spot’s physical nonexistence really matter to anybody? If you get off from that type of stimulation, are you going to stop doing it because someone told you it’s all in your head? and if you never got off that way, why spend your time worrying?

The real problem is that we have shifted as a culture from being prudish and incapable of talking about the mechanical functions of sex to assuming that we can encapsulate the entirety of the sexual experience in terms of biology and mechanics.

Comment #31: t-ster  on  01/04  at  11:32 PM

That’s my point, t-ster.  All sexuality is basically “in your head”. 

I can feel this discussion, like most on this topic, veering towards the wrong question.  There are two separate questions on hand: Is there a G spot? and Are the orgasms some women get from this form of stimulation “real”? 

I think people think by asking the first, the person is calling the latter into question.  Sometimes they probably are, because they don’t understand sexual response.  But the answer to the latter question is, “Absolutely.”  I’m sure they not only feel like orgasms, but any kind of monitoring of the body would show the same hormone flooding and muscle contractions of a clitoral orgasm, because, as soph said, it’s all orgasm.  I’m sure different kinds feel different, but then again, every orgasm feels different from the last one in my experience, so I’m not sure how you can really say much beyond that.

The other question—-is there a separate organ?—-seems unlikely to me.  That some women get off from this kind of stimulation is cool, but I fail to see in the long run why it’s much more important than the fact that some women get off from anal stimulation, some from nipple stimulation, and in some cases, they can get off from having their ears played with or from thought alone.  The only reason it was a question initially was the dim “hope” that men could neglect clitoral stimulation during sex, but as I noted, since it takes way more effort to get a G spot orgasm, then that hope has dissipated.  Why it continues to be contentious is somewhat of a puzzle, therefore, and I think a lot of it has to do with the ongoing refusal to take women’s experiences seriously.  Also, I think that there’s pressure on women who don’t like it to produce evidence of having this “organ”, because there’s always this porn-manufactured hope that new and interesting bells and whistles on women’s bodies can be found.

But taken by itself, I don’t see what the big deal is.  Some women like it.  Some women have other spots they like played with, like their butt or their feet.

Comment #32: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/04  at  11:48 PM

Speaking for myself, there does seem to be something different about external versus internal stimulation. I’ve had some incredible orgasms from clitoral/vulval stimulation but I have never had an orgasm from fucking alone. And while I have had a few orgasms during fucking by adding in masturbation and making the man hold still when I got close, over the past few years, I’ve stopped it completely. I’ve come to find any kind of direct clitoral attention during fucking to be incredibly distracting as penetration has come to feel more and more wonderful on its own. I’d rather thoroughly enjoy penetration for what it is and have my manual orgasm afterwards.

Amanda: “The same woman can be unbelievably sensitive on one occasion, and take forever to come the next, and her nerve structure doesn’t change dramatically in that time.”

Definitely. A couple of months ago, I found a brief video that showed how a vigorous (and well lubricated) application of the two-finger “come here” gesture seemed to produce a real orgasm in the woman being filmed. I tried it myself, and was shocked when I came really hard and really quickly, clamping down on my fingers with unprecedented force. My guy tried it with me a few days later, but couldn’t recreate this, and while my second solo attempt also worked, it wasn’t quite as intense as the first one. If I do have a G spot or Enhanced Clitoris Expansion Pack or Subterranean Orgasm Fairy, it’s a frisky and unpredictable beast.

Comment #33: MaryL  on  01/05  at  12:18 AM

I probably have that video in BD form Expert Guide to the G Spot, MaryL.  I think it’s something worth having as the tutorial was pretty interesting.  Porn aspect aside, I did get it for the learning.  Every proper young man should know *something*, even if he ain’t about to get any action!

Comment #34: shah8  on  01/05  at  12:34 AM

I think the answer to the question is “yes” and “yes.”

The G-Spot, whether it is a discrete organ or not (the latter being pretty obvious), is definitely an area on the inside of the front of a woman’s vagina.  It may not be a medical term, but it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. After all, “belly button,” “adam’s apple,” “happy trail,” and “funny bone” are not medical terms for parts of our body but no one denies they exist. They just happen to be in easily-identifiable areas and require no special circumstances to experience. The G-spot is a feature of the clitoris* that some women may be able to express and others may not be able to express. Just because one person has an outie belly button doesn’t mean everyone does, after all.

Men’s genitalia react to stimulation: things become rigid, skin becomes taut in places where it was loose before, the increase in bloodflow to areas make them more sensitive to arousal which in turn speeds them towards orgasm. It’s not like women’s bodies operate in base 3 whereas men operate in base 10. When we become aroused, our genitalia has an increased bloodflow and may engorge even if we don’t show it externally. If the clitoris becomes engorged with blood, it can become taut and push out from behind the vaginal wall. . Whether or not this happens is probably a number of factors (including genetic: like whether or not your earlobes are attached or dangly), but at the risk of TMI, I can say that this feature does exist, is very recognizable to any hand exploring the vaginal walls if it emerges, and can be the source of intense sexual pleasure if you stimulate it through pressure. It’s not like the instant orgasm button, but proper stimulation can go a long way towards getting a woman off.

The interesting thing about the G-spot (particularly the way it is described in our conventional wisdom) is that it has absolutely fuck-all to do with male penetration: unless a man has some bizarre U-shaped penis, simply thrusting away is *not* going to stimulate the G-spot. As well, it usually requires a degree of arousal in order to even emerge, which makes the case for external clitoral stimulation that much more important. If a woman is on top she may be able to stimulate the G-spot in a not-quite-direct manner, and if she has sufficient arousal then she should be able to get off and have a G-spot, vaginal orgasm. But it’s really not likely. It’s still a clitoral orgasm, it’s just happening from a different angle.  And more often than not it still requires a hand and not the almighty penis.

Because the G-spot appears to be a feature of the aroused clitoris, which is an organ with both an external and an internal presence, it may be difficult for some women to tell which part of the clitoris has received the stimulation that has brought them to orgasm, so there may be some mis-interpretation there of exactly what has precipitated the orgasm.

* Some people believe that the G-spot is the bladder—I don’t see how this could be simply by virtue of placement and also the fact that most people would find continued rubbing of the bladder wall to be irritating and a good way to get a UTI.

Comment #35: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/05  at  12:45 AM

I think the issue of how the study was interpreted in that BBC article is really illuminating to Amanda’s core point. You’ve got some scientists who sorta undermine the idea of a biologically distinct “g-spot,” and the BBC writes it up under the headline, “The G-spot ‘doesn’t appear to exist,’ say researchers.” Complete with counterpoint from a “sexologist” who brings up women’s actual experiences. And when you actually read down, past the journalist’s summary to actual things the actual researchers said… it turns out they aren’t actually saying g-spots are mythical, a word the “journalist” uses.

Read it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/8439000.stm

You’ve got a pretty straightforward finding, in a very narrow context, that should be fairly noncontroversial. And it gets turned into a story questioning the legitimacy of females’ experiences.

Comment #36: humanadverb  on  01/05  at  12:52 AM

God, I’m glad to be gay.

Look, no offense, but I hardly believe it could be any simpler for you. I don’t know your specific compliment of genitals - your handle gives no indication - but there’s probably penetration of one thing or another, right? And just because you’ve got the same thing the other person’s got hardly means it works exactly the same way. I can’t imagine your sexual encounters don’t involve some amount of confusing trial and error, just like it does for us straighties.

Look, it’s pretty much ridiculous no matter how you do it, or with whom. I’m still having a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that occasionally new human beings are made this way.

Comment #37: Chet  on  01/05  at  01:37 AM

“It’s interesting to consider if the G spot only occurs in some women, which would explain the huge gap between experiences without further shaming of women who don’t have G spot orgasms.”  That’s what the original authors thought as well.

Hi Amanda,  I remember when Whipple, etc.‘s original G-Spot book came out that the introduction goes specifically into that exact issue.  In fact the book might be more about handling shame and expectation than about any kind of tissue stimulation at all.

The introduction mentions specifically that women who read Freud in the 1940s and 1950s were expected to feel guilty for having orgasms from clitoral stimulation, and then later, after reading Masters & Johnson they were expected to feel guilty for having orgasms from vaginal stimulation.

Later there’s a whole chapter devoted to the principle that “the best is the enemy of the good,” by which they meant specifically that if people tried to obsess over having or (worse, I think) giving g-spot orgasms they were likely to wind up disappointed with their ordinary old eye-rolling, breathtaking, toe-curling ones.  And, sure enough…  But be darned if anyone should blame the original authors for that.

Oh, and another thing, the same book also introduced the idea of prostate stimulation in men.  Gee, wonder why that idea wasn’t greeted with such widespread enthusiasm?  And gee, wonder why men who can’t have them aren’t judged as losers the way women who don’t do the g-spot thing are.  And finally, gee, wonder why no researchers are doing twins studies to try and debunk prostate sensitivity.  But I digress.

G-spots and prostates notwithstanding, another big contribution the book made was to introduce the importance of the pubococcygeus (a.k.a “PC muscle”) for both men and women’s genital health and sexual enjoyment.  The authors were pretty adamant that Kegels and other pc muscle exercises were pretty important both for increasing the strength of orgasms (of any kind but especially g-spot ones) but also for reducing incontinence and prolapsed uteruses.  Their proposed exercises for women are well known but less well-known are the ones for men which involve draping rolled-up towels and making them, um, bob.

Hmm.  The book’s not actually that much about the actual g-spot.  It was actually pretty radical (and thus most everything but the squirting parts have largely been ignored.)  I highly recommend it.

figleaf

Comment #38: figleaf  on  01/05  at  02:12 AM

Doh!  And also, what Heather said in comment #2!  The size of the internal clitoris with all it’s vestibular bulbs and crura (crurae?) wasn’t well known when the authors were writing The G-Spot, though Beverly Whipple has done quite a lot of research since.

—fl

Comment #39: figleaf  on  01/05  at  02:55 AM

@humanadverb: The BBC is notoriously bad (amongst scientists, anyways) for having a particularly bad “science” reporting department, though they are acceptable in straight “get the facts” stories that have no real interpretation (eg., stories about spacecraft launches or failures). Of course, there are very few good science departments anywhere…

On topic: Well, yeah it’s “all in your head”. And the head is part of the body. Just because there’s no special thingy there that transmits super-special sex rays to the head doesn’t mean someone can’t have a lot of fun from being stimulated somewhere, as Amanda notes above with nipple orgasms or mental orgasms.

Comment #40: truth is life  on  01/05  at  03:17 AM

“It really irritates me that people go around pronouncing that the G-spot doesn’t exist because they’ve found some/most people don’t get off that way.

Yeah, isn’t this sort of like saying that left-handedness doesn’t exist because most people are righties?

Oh, I’m just waiting for Amanda to apply the same logic to “prove” lesbianism can’t exist.  I mean. it obviously can’t be genetic, the comments by so-callwed “lesbians” are just subjective, and it’s probably due to bad exeriences with males and confusion about sexual stimulation.

Now, all we need is a perceived feminist opinion that dykes are simply one good hard dicking away from turning straight, and Amanda will fall right behind that idea.  Judging by the logic shown here…

Comment #41: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  01/05  at  03:17 AM

“I’m just pointing out that since women’s psychological experiences are discounted, the “G spot” had to be constructed as what it biologically isn’t, which is a separate organ that therefore every woman has, and if she doesn’t, then she’s a prude or whatever.”

The fact that the existence of the G Spot can be interpreted in a misogynist manner is hardly evidence against its existence. After all, in a patriarchy, the existence of the G Spot would be interpreted in a misogynist fashion. Evidence that women breathe would be interpreted in a misogynist fashion. You really need to separate misogynist interpretation of evidence from the evidence.

One long term partner of mine did not particularly like direct clitoral stimulation but had big orgasms with just the right touch of a hand or penis in the G Spot area. Was her experience ‘just subjective’? Well, no more subjective than women who claim to have orgasms only from direct clitoral stimulation. Was she manipulated by the patriarchy to enjoy that? That sounds like a double backflip twist explanation for how her body responded to pleasure.

Anyway, I just fail to see why this should be a problem for feminists. Bodies are different. People—men and women—have different ennervations in their private bits. People get off differently, with different physical pleasure and mental stimulation. Can we please just get back to fucking and stop letting people doubt the peculiarities of the pleasure of fucking?

Comment #42: Loneoak  on  01/05  at  04:29 AM

“When we become aroused, our genitalia has an increased bloodflow and may engorge even if we don’t show it externally. If the clitoris becomes engorged with blood, it can become taut and push out from behind the vaginal wall.”

It’s like that old saying about male genitalia: He’s a grower, not a shower. ; )

Comment #43: Loneoak  on  01/05  at  04:33 AM

The introduction mentions specifically that women who read Freud in the 1940s and 1950s were expected to feel guilty for having orgasms from clitoral stimulation, and then later, after reading Masters & Johnson they were expected to feel guilty for having orgasms from vaginal stimulation.

Thank you!  That’s the whole weird backstory of the G-spot—it was taken up as part of the war between strict Freudians and other psychologists because Freud had this bizarre notion that clitoral orgasms were “immature” and a truly psychologically healthy woman would be having vaginal orgasms.  Which, of course, meant that the 90 percent of women who were having orgasms through clitoral stimulation were labeled as psychological children who needed lots and lots of analysis to figure out why they hated men so much that they refused to have a “correct” orgasm.

Just another example of how Freud fucked us all over by observing interesting things and misinterpreting them so completely that people believed the misinterpretation over the evidence.  Unfortunately for us, those weird misinterpretations are still hanging on today in the popular imagination even if we don’t quite remember where they came from or exactly why women are “supposed” to be having vaginal orgasms.

Comment #44: Mnemosyne  on  01/05  at  04:43 AM

I think the idea that “all sexuality is basically in your head” to be a bit of a canard.

Sexual stimulation is transmitted from nerve endings up to the brain, just like all pain stimulation is transmitted from nerve endings up to the brain. But no one would look at someone who suffered 3rd degree burns and tell them “the pain is all in your head.” Why should sexual stimulation be any different? The human body distributes nerve endings differently, as well as differently from person-to-person, and not all nerve ending serve the same purpose, if they were, then we could orgasm in record time just by washing our hands. But one woman may be able to experience sexual arousal through having her partner fondle her breasts whereas another woman may experience sexual arousal by having her ears blown into. It’s all about nerve endings and how they message the brain.

Comment #45: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/05  at  10:51 AM

OK, time to put on my old fart hat here. Knowledge is a good thing, but I wonder how much all the sexology research has really improved people’s pleasure in sex, especially since it so easily gets caught up in ideological wars and/or makes sex sound like a hard, boring job. No book or article can substitute for simply paying attention to your partner’s responses and learning what floats his/her boat.

Comment #46: Steve LaBonne  on  01/05  at  10:51 AM

Steve LaBonne ... I think the problem is that we’re fighting against a construction of female sexuality that is perceived as mysterious and difficult. Like I said earlier, it’s not like men operate in base 10 and women have to operate in base 3. The basics are the same.

Comment #47: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/05  at  10:55 AM

My comment disappeared, so forgive a potential doublepost: I’m with sophonisba that there’s something kinda creepy and, well, Othering about these Do Ladies Like It Like That, Oh Yeah, You Know You Like it Like That (Respond A or B) science writeups. Ladies are people and people like a lot of things, some of which involve simple touch and some of which require whole rooms of equipment and a four-part script. Also, people have bodies, bodies have nerve endings, and nerve endings can perceive pleasure, though different people’s nerve endings respond differently to different things.

Oh, look, I’ve twisted the science to support my ideological belief that women are people, people vary, and sex (that acknowledges the forementioned) is awesome.

Comment #48: purpleshoes  on  01/05  at  11:01 AM

Oh, I’m just waiting for Amanda to apply the same logic to “prove” lesbianism can’t exist.

Left-handedness and lesbianism aren’t separate organs, and use the existing body parts in different ways.  Indeed, it’s quite like what I imagine is going on with the spot people call the G spot, which is that it’s the same physical structures, but the wiring is a little different, possibly for a mix of biological and psychological reasons.

You seem to be under the impression that I denied that these orgasms are real.  Where did you get that idea?  Certainly not from me.  I think they’re very real, and people get confused, because we’re still stuck in believing that women’s experiences only count if there’s something physical that can be measured by a man, and that if an orgasm happens from this stimulation, it’s only “real” if there’s a separate organ.  I disagree.  I think the orgasms are plenty real.  There doesn’t have to be a special organ for this to be true.

Comment #49: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/05  at  12:13 PM

One long term partner of mine did not particularly like direct clitoral stimulation but had big orgasms with just the right touch of a hand or penis in the G Spot area. Was her experience ‘just subjective’?

Yep.  But women who orgasm the other way are “just subjective”.  All ways men orgasm are “just subjective”.  See?  You are making the error I denounce in the post, which is to assume “subjective” means “not real”.  There is no such thing as a human experience that isn’t experienced subjectively.


It’s so weird to have men assuming I denied the reality of this orgasm.  It’s like what I say doesn’t even matter!

Comment #50: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/05  at  12:16 PM

But no one would look at someone who suffered 3rd degree burns and tell them “the pain is all in your head.”

Eh, they’ve done a lot of scientific experiments demonstrating that the pain from even severe injuries is very context-dependent.  “Radio Lab” did a segment on how it is that soldier shot on the field experience less pain than civilians shot during crimes.  Pain is highly suggestible to the placebo effect in general.

But since the subject isn’t female sexuality, people don’t get as upset and bunched up and make false accusations that you’re denying experiences you went out of your way to validate. 

I think the insistence on putting all reality for female sexual experience 100% below the neck is something of a submission to sexist standards that women’s subjectivity doesn’t count as much as men’s.  Like soph said, no one divides this orgasm from that for men.  More importantly, we don’t demand physical proof if a guy said he came hard, or expressed skepticism if he says that his orgasms feel different for different positions or whatever.  Men have authority, so that their sexuality is “all in their head” is not considered a problem.  It is only women that need to have biological proof of every little experience.

Comment #51: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/05  at  12:21 PM

Studying “phantom limb syndrome” has led V. S. Ramachandran to some interesting discoveries about the ways our brains synthesize multisensory experience of our bodies.  Tapping an artificial hand in a subject’s visual field while synchronously tapping the subject’s actual hand outside their visual field creates an illusion of sensation in the artificial hand (discussed at some length in this excerpt from his book Phantoms in the Brain.  The G-spot phenomenon could very well be this kind of “illusion” where the brain sometimes doesn’t quite map the body in strict fidelity to the actual anatomy as it synthesizes the experience.  Which is to say, Amanda, I think there’s probably something to your “in your head” theory, and also agree that it’s nothing for anyone to feel upset or weirded out about.

Comment #52: curtp  on  01/05  at  12:22 PM

I’ll point out that if pain wasn’t all “in your head”, drugs like morphine wouldn’t work.  Like curtp’s point indicates, it’s far from a canard.  I think the problem is that sex is contextualized—-especially in women’s bodies—-as being more about the nerves at the stimulation point and not about how it’s interpreted in the brain.  This is no small thing in terms of what it means for women and people in general.  If we really, truly understood how much it’s about how your brain interprets your body, then I think sex would be better.  We’d be more accepting of the fact that people change, and more willing to entertain the all-consuming importance of fantasy.  We could get away from divvying up female body parts in a way we wouldn’t do to men, and accept that, as complicated as it might initially seem, the female junk works in one piece like the male junk does. And oh yeah, that sex as a whole body experience—-especially when we respect the importance of psychological stimulation—-is better.

Again, I’ll point out that male psychological stimulation and fantasy are not shorted in our culture.  That’s what the whole “yuck yuck, men need visual stimulation” thing is about, implication being that women are less needing of having their sexual fantasies provoked to get aroused.  Which is untrue.

Comment #53: Amanda Marcotte  on  01/05  at  12:30 PM

“More importantly, we don’t demand physical proof if a guy said he came hard, or expressed skepticism if he says that his orgasms feel different for different positions or whatever.”

Actually, I had a girlfriend for a long time who wasn’t a very good listener and had low self-esteem. If I’d masturbated earlier in the day, and didn’t have a quantity orgasm, she *would* outright accuse me of faking. As she slowly came to accept that I sometimes had non-ejaculatory (or minimally-ejaculatory) orgasms, she started telling me that I was weird.

I’m not being argumentative and *definitely* not trying to put male and female experiences on the same level, but be careful around saying men don’t feel pressure or have their sexual identities dictated to them.

However, for the record, the few times I’ve felt like a prude for not being gung-ho on exploring prostate stimulation, it didn’t come from a tradmed source. Not even from a “health” article linked through the trashy Huffpo.

Comment #54: humanadverb  on  01/05  at  12:46 PM

snowmentality (19):

It’s really okay to just say “I don’t get off on G-spot stimulation,” just like it’s okay to say “I don’t get off on oral sex” or “I don’t get off on anal stimulation” or “I don’t get off on PIV”

Because of glare on my monitor I read “PIV” as “PIN,” which is appropriate, considering how I imagine many men and, aught I know, many women perceive Dr. Gräfenberg’s discovery, and for that matter the clitoris itself. Demanding your partner have an orgasm has somehow come to be seen as better than being indifferent.

I agree that having a good idea of what’s “normal”—in the sense of what happens frequently in the population, not in the sense of “if you’re not normal you’re broken and wrong”—can be useful for figuring out what you might try if you’re not enjoying the kind of sex you’re having.

Though, whenever the concept of “normal” comes up, particularly WRT sex, it becomes “if you’re not normal you’re broken and wrong.”

Comment #55: Hershele Ostropoler  on  01/05  at  01:18 PM

Yes, even when we know there is an organ involved, you very rarely see men’s orgasms dichotomized along the lines of prostate stimulation, and a large part of it is because it’s still a big masculine taboo.

Comment #56: CBrachyrhynchos  on  01/05  at  01:50 PM

But I think you’re creating a disconnect between the nerve endings and the brain, that the nerve endings are either coded to send 1s or 0s and it’s the brain that turns that into an orgasm, which is over-simplifying. Not all nerve endings send discrete 1s or 0s. Pain and pleasure are coded differently, as are neutral touch sensations. For women who experience difficult or painful PIV sex, I don’t think it’s because they’re just not into it enough or They’ve Suffered Abuse (not to accuse you of Dr. Drewing it up), I think it’s because somewhere in that nervous system the body is sending pain and discomfort signals. If the woman has the psychology to interpret that as something else that can bring about an orgasm, then that’s a different matter… some women like rough sex, after all, and some women (I would say most) can be taking the express train to Climax when suddenly they start to chafe and the whole thing can be derailed. It’s an important distinction.

Certainly, drugs like morphine work because it shuts down the brain’s interpretation of nerve ending signals. But being able to flood the brain with chemicals that disrupt signal uptake doesn’t mean the signals aren’t firing.

I’m sure there are women out there who can sit down, hands at their side, and fantasize themselves to full climax. I just don’t think they’re that common.

And I don’t think trying to identify anatomical features and nerve concentrations to the sexual organs is somehow divvying up the female anatomy in ways that male anatomy isn’t—when you’re looking at women’s health and sexuality in a historical view, we are just now getting around to stuff that men have been celebrating for themselves for years, and have not had the sort of inhibitions around expressing that women have. BJs may not be something women can master right off the bat, but men being comfortable with their own anatomy and comfortable giving feedback makes a big difference (not to mention there’s enough about the act in our popular culture to make it pretty easy to pick up the basics) for women learning their way around the dick and being able to stimulate their partner properly. We’re just now entering an age where the idea that women should be encouraged to explore their own bodies and learn what feels right isn’t seen as some gateway to hysteria and nymphomania. And we’re definitely still in the infant stages of teaching women to actively guide their partners in doing what feels good and not doing what feels bad: a lot of women still feel inhibited to tell their partner things like “don’t rub my clit quite so hard,” “I’m not lubed up enough yet,” “stop slamming away, this doesn’t feel good anymore.” And it’s not entirely our fault—a lot of men react badly to being told that they’re not total masters in the sack when they’ve been comfortable with the sexual mastery they’ve had over their own body for so long.

Comment #57: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/05  at  02:12 PM

I’ve read about this study already, and it was very poorly done.  It’s possible (and extremely likely) that many of the women interviewed have a g-spot but simply haven’t found it yet.  Telling me that I don’t have one is about as silly as telling me that I don’t have arms.  It’s obviously there.  However, if you had asked me 10 years ago, I probably would have said I didn’t have one, because I hadn’t found it yet. Maybe not all women have it, but that doesn’t mean that no women have it.

Comment #58: bananacat  on  01/05  at  02:39 PM

But no one would look at someone who suffered 3rd degree burns and tell them “the pain is all in your head.”

Huh, funny - NPR yesterday had a story about an Army burn unit that was experimenting with immersive virtual reality systems for burn victims - that, apparently, wearing VR goggles and being shown a calming snowscape, and more importantly not being able to look down at your significant burns, was a substantial palliative and dramatically reduced the pain experienced by victims of even extreme burns.

So, yeah. A pretty substantial number of medical researchers are telling burn victims that the pain is all in their heads - and they’re quite correct and helpful to do so.

Comment #59: Chet  on  01/05  at  02:47 PM

Yeah—asking women: “G Spot: do you have it?” is about the worst way to conduct a survey because self-reporting has always been the worst way to getting people to describe themselves accurately. Throw in fear of being thought of as a slut who would know that much about herself and you’re going to get a bunch of false negatives.

But I think just like trying to tell women who clearly do have one that they don’t, telling women that the G-Spot is some sort of standard feature of their anatomy is also the wrong thing: obviously, not all women have located it and not for lack of trying. I really think it’s a question of how the clitoris responds to stimulation and whether or not it pushes through the vaginal wall to create that “knot.”

I have to say, one genetic feature of a woman’s anatomy that deserves more scrutiny than this is the mythical “ribbed” woman: the woman’s whose vaginal wall has a series of ridges inside of it (like some sort of moist Ruffles chip) and give mind-blowing sex to any man lucky enough to penetrate her. Anecdotally, I’ve heard of this phenomenon, but it smells like bullshit. When you have plenty of women stepping forward to say “hell yes I’ve got a G spot,” and it’s described in a very uniform way, why are we still arguing about whether or not exists? (Like Amanda said, why can’t we just believe women are telling the truth?) But I want to know about these fantastic ribbed vaginas and whether or not it’s possible to have one installed. wink

Comment #60: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/05  at  02:54 PM

Personally, I think it’s highly unlikely that my g-spot is just an extension of my clitoris.  I’ve had orgasms both ways, and they are completely different in so many ways.

Comment #61: bananacat  on  01/05  at  02:54 PM

Catgirl—the clitoris is like the iceberg of the female anatomy. <a href=“http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5013866.stm”>What we see is no where near the totality.</em>

Comment #62: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/05  at  03:07 PM

catgirl, I could use the same reasoning to demonstrate that masturbation, intercourse, and fellatio involve different bits of me.

Comment #63: Hershele Ostropoler  on  01/05  at  03:14 PM

@Mnemosyne: Remember Freud was only half of the story.  In the 1970s, after Masters & Johnson, David Rubin, etc., women who responded to vaginal stimulation rather than “correct” external-clitoral stimulation were thought to be… immature, repressed, and/or in thrall to patriarchal notions.  (In her big report Shere Hite sounded particularly exasperated about women who claimed to enjoy penetration.)

Of course the whole debate—Freudian, sex “revolutionary,” and feminist alike—was still patriarchal to the core.  In fact migrating genital stimulation to the external clitoris sort of completed the dominant notion that women’s internal genitals were an utterly passive emptiness of interest only to penises going into and babies coming out of, end of story.

This latest research about the non-existence of the g-spot seems to be part of that same tradition by the way.  Back in 2005 the primary author published another twins-based study on women’s orgasms.  An article in The Guardian put it

Tim Spector of St Thomas’s hospital in London, who led the research, said: “The theory is that the orgasm is an evolutionary way of seeing if men can prove themselves to be likely good providers or dependable, patient and caring enough to look after the kids.”

It gets better though

The findings suggest the failure of some women to orgasm regularly is not a dysfunction, but a sophisticated mate-selection strategy that evolved during prehistoric times.

...

Women who orgasm very easily may be more likely to be satisfied with poor quality men.

“Perhaps women who had orgasms too easily weren’t very good selectors,” Professor Spector said.

 

They used twins!  It must be true!  Keeping women’s genitals passive responders to men’s prowess instead of, say, active, sophisticated, and highly-organized systems of organs in active, sophisticated, and highly-organized autonomous human beings is in keeping with the same researcher’s g-spot conclusions as well.

I was talking about this on my blog and one of my biomedically-inclined commenters said “Whatever I’ve got, it’s both sensitive and palpable, and it’s deeply weird being told that it’s some magic feather or sexual fantasy, because… it’s right there!”  Depending on which decade we’re in she could be talking about sensation in anything from a clitoris, a g-spot, her partner’s prostate, her or her partner’s perineal sponge, a partner’s foreskin, or any other part someone somewhere thinks should, or else shouldn’t, be a critical element of gendered experience.

Which, not to beat a dead horse or anything, could have been the message everyone got from the “other discoveries about human sexuality” part of “The G spot: and Other Discoveries About Human Sexuality.”  But mostly wasn’t.

figleaf

—-

p.s. Mighty Ponygirl: the “ribbed vagina” thing people talk about is just the little area under the pubic bone that feels a little like the roof of your mouth.  That a) almost everybody has those ridges, b) they become more distinct during clitoral engorgement but c) there are guys running around swearing that if they could only find it they’d have mind-blowing orgasms is… pretty much all you need to know before throwing up your hands.  Oh yeah, and that the ridges are socially constructed as being there to make extra friction for men is just out of control.  If increases sensation for men then sort of by-definition it makes extra sensation for women too.  Which is convenient because inner portions of the clitoris are right under that.  (Disappointing news for Cosmo and Details editors and readers, no doubt, but kind of obvious to everyone else.)

Comment #64: figleaf  on  01/05  at  03:31 PM

Chet <i>So, yeah. A pretty substantial number of medical researchers are telling burn victims that the pain is all in their heads - and they’re quite correct and helpful to do so. </i?

Or perhaps the mind/body dichotomy is a fallacy. Is it true that there are psychological strategies that can help manage severe pain? Yes. Does that mean that severe pain is all in the head and the peripheral nervous system has nothing to do with it? No.

Comment #65: CBrachyrhynchos  on  01/05  at  03:42 PM

I read the original study. I was surprised that lesbians and bisexual women were specifically excluded. The study authors said they excluded women who had sex with women because they might have more experience with “digital stimulation”—which they thought might bias the results. Women who had never had PIV intercourse were also excluded.

So, the women who the authors thought would be most likely to recognize a g-spot if they encountered one were banned from the study. Maybe they were afraid that lesbianism would be a confounding variable. Identical twins are more likely to have the same sexual orientation than fraternal twins. If lesbians are more likely to be aware of their g-spots, then identical twins might be more likely to give matching answers to the g-spot question than fraternal twins because if one identical twin is lesbian or bisexual, she has higher odds of having a gay twin.

The authors are tacitly acknowledging the weakness of the self-report design. They realize that your sexual history probably plays a big role in whether you become aware of your g-spot (or lack thereof).

Comment #66: Lindsay Beyerstein  on  01/05  at  04:35 PM

Personally, I think it’s highly unlikely that my g-spot is just an extension of my clitoris.  I’ve had orgasms both ways, and they are completely different in so many ways.

I’m leaning towards the theory that my G spot is actually part of the larger, hidden clitoris. I KNOW that the orgasms I’ve had from external and internal stimulation do feel different in some ways, but why would this mean that a completely different organ is involved? Stimulating the shaft of the penis and the head of the penis feels different to guys, but it’s still all the same organ. The unitary (and somewhat unpredictable) clitoris is a more parsimonious explanation that takes into account that not all women come from anterior wall stimulation, not all women can feel a distinct bump there, and it may take years for some women to find out that they have an extra sensitive internal area.

I know that I was in my thirties before I REALLY started preferring rear entry positions, before I actually found a bump (after looking for it in my twenties with no luck), and I didn’t actually come this way until I reached my forties. I think some people are just constructed slightly differently from the beginning, with some women having somewhat larger internal clitoral structures that may also be closer to the vaginal surface. Look at the variations in things like nose, breasts and ear lobes. In addition, it’s possible that just as the ear lobes and nose grow with age, clitoral tissue may grow or shift over the years.

Comment #67: MaryL  on  01/05  at  05:27 PM

catgirl, I could use the same reasoning to demonstrate that masturbation, intercourse, and fellatio involve different bits of me.

Do you have completely different types of orgasm when you do those activities?  If not, then it’s not a good analogy.  If so, then I am very curious.  The orgasm that results from me stimulating my clitoris manually or from oral stimulation from another person feels very similar, even though the lead-up to that feels different.  I don’t think you understood what I was saying.

Comment #68: bananacat  on  01/05  at  06:19 PM

I highly doubt my g-spot is just in my head, or some “wanting to please” men thing, considering I discovered it at a very young age, around 9. (I discovered clit orgasms around 6 or 7.) When I first discovered it, I didn’t even fantasize at all, I just pushed my finger on the spot and it felt good.

I think the theory that it is the clit being pressed through indirect pressure sounds plausible to me. I can’t actually feel anything different there with my fingers, just a spot that feels good. And it definitely has to be pushed up, towards the clit.

I agree the orgasm feels different through that than just clit stimulation, but I think it’s just a different part of the clit being stimulated. I can also hit this spot through anal penetration, interestingly.

Even more interesting, I seem to have ANOTHER spot, which I never hear anyone else mention, much deeper in, like on my cervix or something. It can only be reached with a long toy, or a fist. I have no idea what this spot is, but it produces a third type of orgasm, different from the clit or g-spot.

Comment #69: slingshot  on  01/05  at  07:09 PM

Even more interesting, I seem to have ANOTHER spot, which I never hear anyone else mention, much deeper in, like on my cervix or something. It can only be reached with a long toy, or a fist. I have no idea what this spot is, but it produces a third type of orgasm, different from the clit or g-spot.
Comment #69: Kat on 01/05 at 05:09 PM

The A spot

It’s amusing how, up until recently, the sexperts intoned gravely, “there’s little if any sensation within the vagina.”  Because, second half of the sentence, “therefore it doesn’t matter how long a man’s penis is.”

The G spot is close to the labial opening, so it’s not so threatening.  Something only the longest penis can hit?  Off limits.  The discoverer of this A-spot didn’t publish for thirteen years.

Comment #70: oldfeminist  on  01/05  at  10:02 PM

Huh. Over the past couple of years, I’ve started to really enjoy deep, pounding sex, and my cervix is usually quite fine with it, too. Given that my guy of 2 years is rather longer than any of my exes, maybe there’s something to this A spot thing, too.

Comment #71: MaryL  on  01/05  at  10:53 PM

oldfeminist, the reasoning behind that was: “can you imagine how excruciating childbirth would be if you had nerve endings inside your vagina?”

Wait, I thought childbirth was painful. Watermelon-through-your-nostril painful.

I really don’t see why it can’t be both-and. By using the “stimulation increases bloodflow which further sensitizes erogenous areas” argument, you have the direct recipe for orgasm, while still allowing for a woman’s vagina to be oh-so-serious during that Most Important and Serious Process of Childbirth.

Comment #72: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/05  at  11:12 PM

XKCD…

someone there is a big fan of Pandagon.

http://www.xkcd.com/685/

Comment #73: shah8  on  01/06  at  03:59 AM

The orgasm that results from me stimulating my clitoris manually or from oral stimulation from another person feels very similar, even though the lead-up to that feels different.

Well, for me, they feel completely different, but it’s the still the same old clitoris.

Comment #74: chingona  on  01/06  at  04:00 AM
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