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Next entry: Southern gentility way overrated Previous entry: Cain plays the “you know how women blow everything out of proportion” card

Why we don’t deserve nice things: Fundies and Halloween edition

Every year around Halloween, it's important to have a post explaining the ridiculous and seemingly growing fundamentalist hostility to the holiday, which they consider too fun demonic. And then after waging actual war on Halloween, these fucktards then go on Fox News and cry that we're trying to kill Christmas with innocuous phrases like "Happy Holidays". That America allows this sort of thing to continue happening demonstrates why we don't deserve nice things. Oh sure, some of us bloggers out here make fun of it, but on the whole, the whole "fundies are trying to destroy Halloween" crap doesn't get the attention it deserves. I mean, just for sheer comedy value, their belief that trick-or-treating invites Satan into your home should be enough for coast-to-coast cackling until they retreat in shame. But mostly, anti-Halloween sentiment gets no coverage, even though it's a) real (unlike anti-Christmas sentiment) and b) surprisingly widespread. 

How widespread? Well, I think it's the primary reason behind this story:

Yale University researchers have looked into whether there are increases or decreases in cesarean section births on holidays. They found a 12 percent increase in "c-section" births on Valentine's Day and a nearly 17 percent drop on Halloween.

Emphasis mine. The first one can be explained by a combination of sentimentality and the stress of having to give birth during the coldest month of the year, I'm sure. Plus, you may have an eyeball towards making sure they get badass birthday gifts as a grown adult with a romantic life.* But the Halloween thing? What kind of horrible monster would deny their child the chance at being born on Halloween? I mean, think of the lifelong advantages of having your birthday fall on the best holiday of the year! You get to eat cake and candy. Your birthday party is always a costume party. No one ever forgets your birthday, plus they give you cool macabre stuff as presents. It's a popular holiday, but it's not a religious one or a present-oriented one, so it doesn't overwhelm your birthday. It's like hte opposite of having a Christmas birthday, which is the worst birthday to have, unless you have a family that doesn't celebrate Christmas at all. 

So what kind of monster are you to deprive your child? Well, you're probably a fundamentalist Christian who believes in demons, that's what kind of monster. Depending on your measurement, conservative evangelicals are 14% to 35% of the population, a solid enough chunk to completely explain this 17% drop in C-sections on Halloween. 

Of course, some fundies are going beyond just being scared assholes about Halloween, and openly trying to combat it. How? Well, apparently by locking people up in houses and showing them blatantly false representations of how abortions are performed. I know; that hardly seems like a good way to stomp out the practice of wearing costumes, being a little drunker and sexier (for adults) for a night/trick-or-treating (for kids), but with fundies, all roads lead back to the grave evil that is women being able to say what happens to their own bodies, no matter how not-sorry they are that they touched a penis. So it goes:

Ybarra tells KTRK that while the tickets came with a vague warning about graphic images, like you'd see at any event featuring wounds applied with spirit gum and buckets of fake blood, there was no indication that it was hosted by Potters House Christian Fellowship Church — or that it contained disturbing depictions of what the church considers evil acts. Ybarra says that inside Hell House,

"There was a young lady lying on a gurney, and two nurses. And one of the nurses was reaching into the lady and pulling out a bunch of gunk, and throwing it on the floor."

She felt the scenes were too "realistic" (though safe and legal abortions obviously don't involve guts being thrown about the room) and quickly asked to leave, but she was told she had to stay and go through the whole house due to safety concerns. Good thing she wasn't having a heart attack.

Hey, when you're dealing with people who want to control what women do with their uteruses, don't be surprised if they think it's acceptable to hold you against your will and be subjected to their hysterical attempts at proselytization.

Anyone ever notice how evangelicals and time share salesmen have the same M.O.? Lure you into an enclosed space under a false pretense, use social pressure and  a whiff of physical intimidation to keep you from leaving, hit you up with the hard sell? It's pretty despicable. Though I suppose if they'd done this to Ybarra in service of hitting her up for sex instead of hitting her up with some Bible-thumping, we could expect a hearty defense of this tactic from many in the dudelier sections of the atheist community. 

*This is not an endorsement of Valentine's Day, which I consider a foul holiday that I've come around to boycotting. You might as well call it Single Shaming Day or Our Love Can Never Measure Up Day. It functions in the same way photoshopping impossible proportions on fashion models does: to fill you with shame for not being good enough (which is impossible by the standards set) so you buy more shit. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 04:44 PM • (83) Comments

I wonder if the low c-section rate on Valentine’s Day is partially due to the doctors and surgeons having plans.

Comment #1: Inspector Spacetime  on  11/01  at  05:18 PM

Yeah, but this year, Fox News has decided that Halloween is awesome, because some schools are banning costumes and classroom celebrations out of cultural respect.  These cultures couldn’t possibly be the fundies who get all het up about Halloween every year!  It must be brown people, and acting out of respect for brown people is un-American and so there is a liberal War on Halloween. 

I shit you not.

Comment #2: Kit-Kat  on  11/01  at  05:18 PM

I think this comic is appropriate: http://somethingpositive.net/sp10042006.shtml (There’s a whole arc).

Comment #3: Antigone  on  11/01  at  05:21 PM

You’d think people claiming to be Christians would be more familiar with Christian holidays.  All Hallows Eve is the night before the traditional Christian holy day honoring all of the saints.  If they think there’s too much emphasis on Halloween, shouldn’t they be pushing church services and some kind of popular observance for November 1?  Or maybe they’re not so familiar with Christianity after all.

Comment #4: Nutella  on  11/01  at  05:26 PM

I saw that the other day, and I was surprised because my guess would have been that people would avoid giving birth on any major holiday. Who wants their birthday to coincide with any holiday, really? It basically means one less day to celebrate, since they get combined into one. It also probably means that you’ll have trouble having birthday parties because people will always have other plans. Being born on Xmas is probably the worst, but being born on Valentine’s Day or Halloween doesn’t seem so great either. So, I was surprised that there would be an increase on one holiday and a decrease on another - I expected decreases on both.

Comment #5: geogami  on  11/01  at  05:27 PM

It’s a higher C-section rate on Valentine’s Day, lower on Halloween. People are planning for their kids to be born on that day.

Kit-Kat, that’s hilarious. Wait until they find out what cultures require that sensitivity.

Comment #6: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/01  at  05:27 PM

Interesting. I recall hearing a lot about the whole Fundy war on Halloween a few years ago, but then it seemed to die away. I guess it could easily be just a drop in news coverage. I’m not in a Fundy heavy area (thank goodness) so the news is the only way I would hear about it.

Comment #7: Nobody  on  11/01  at  05:30 PM

The article you linked to was surprisingly sparse.  How many years did they look at?  What kind of demographics?  What was the stats for the day before and the day after, and the average over the period?  Do more or less children get born in late October vs February?  Some regions have variances that high from the number of people fucking around in May vs February.

Because you should have some variance across day of the week, month, etc.  Not all C-sections are planned:  So day of week weather, seasonal employment rates, number of scheduled births that day, tons of things could all affect these stats.

Wouldn’t just ‘number of induced births’ be a better guide?

Comment #8: Crissa  on  11/01  at  05:32 PM

It’s a drop in the news coverage. If you actually follow their own media, they’ve turned the volume up on the hysteria.

Crissa, it’s always possible that the Yale researchers blatantly misrepresented their data for no reason whatsoever, but I’m skeptical. You might want to substantiate those allegations with some googling before making them.

Comment #9: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/01  at  05:45 PM

My wife works at a religious hospital where she encountered a coworker who was worried that Halloween might be corrupting kids or turning them on to witchcraft. My wife told me about this person and was incredulous that this opinion could be mainstream. Coming from an evangelical Christian family, I reassured her that it is.

As for scheduling C-sections, to me everyday is Halloween, so bring on Rosemary’s baby. Also, I dress this way to keep the fundies at bay.

Comment #10: JonE  on  11/01  at  05:45 PM

In the ‘70’s when I was a teen, we lived next door to Jehovah’s Witnesses.  They had major issues with Halloween, but having a birthday on Halloween wouldn’t have mattered, because they had issues with birthdays, too.  And Christmas.  But, at least I learned that Easter is really the main Christian holiday, something that I didn’t know as a Jew who had lapsed at age 11.  Alas, all of that didn’t keep their daughter from getting pregnant at 14 or their son from getting in trouble with the law for stupid things.  I haven’t seen them for about 25 years.  I wonder how they are doing.

Comment #11: Iam138  on  11/01  at  05:52 PM

@ 4, never suppose that most adherents to a religion will be familiar with that religion’s history, at least in this country.  Nobody ever told them the unexamined life is not worth living, as I realized when I was pursuing a faith in my teen years.

Comment #12: ganews_  on  11/01  at  05:58 PM

My birthday is just a few days from Valentines, and I hate the double present.  Heart shaped crap that’s supposed to be a two for one? 

Bullshit.  Gimme a real birthday present any year.

Comment #13: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  11/01  at  06:06 PM

That’s why the Halloween birthday is better! It’s not a gift-oriented holiday, so there’s no double gifting.

Comment #14: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/01  at  06:10 PM

I really wanted my daughter to be born yesterday, but she had other plans and showed up on the 20th. I’ve promised the infink that she’ll still get costume parties for as long as she wants them, but I a kind of bummed for her.

Comment #15: Ticky  on  11/01  at  06:22 PM

I was hoping my daughter would be born on Halloween! How awesome would that be? Instead, she was born on the 23rd.

However, I did have quite a few people who were NOT fundies say “Hopefully she isn’t born on Halloween.” So there seems to be a lot of superstition around Halloween even among people who go to church a couple times a year and are not fundamentalists.

Comment #16: Ashley Herzog  on  11/01  at  06:36 PM

Yeah, I was also hoping my daughter would be born on Hallowe’en, despite being scheduled for the 17th (her due date, I mean). I was also really hoping if not Hallowe’en, then a few days early on the 13th, which was indeed a Friday that year. But she just came on the due date, just like her little brother a couple years later. Damn kids. He could have had a Friday the 13th as well, but instead he was born on my birthday, cutting into our cake opportunities.

Comment #17: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  11/01  at  06:49 PM

There was a quite relief in my heart this year when for the first time since I bought my house we got trick-or-treaters. I was starting to worry that I’d moved into a neighborhood of fundies without realizing it.

And a question for pandagonians around the country: Are Hell houses a regional thing or tied to a specific denomination? Around here we get tribulation trials which are just as stupid in their religion through fear thing, but at least have a narrative to follow and the staff is less pushy. You may even score some Chick tracks on the way out.

Comment #18: scrumby  on  11/01  at  06:51 PM

I agree Halloween birthday is better than Christmas birthday but don’t agree that it’s ideal. Any kind of doubling up is a blown load. You want your birthday to be an ordinary day that becomes awesome by virtue of it being your birthday. It should be an island oasis in the sea of holidays.

Comment #19: typist  on  11/01  at  06:53 PM

“Anyone ever notice how evangelicals and time share salesmen have the same M.O.? Lure you into an enclosed space under a false pretense, use social pressure and a whiff of physical intimidation to keep you from leaving, hit you up with the hard sell?”

Sure.

One of them will do anything short of murder to achieve their goals, because the ends they value justify the use of any means necessary for their achievement.  Confinement to small spaces and restricting your freedom of movement, being endlessly bombarded by the most elaborate lies and truth twisting, for hours at a time, leaving their victims empty and weakened — drained of all energy and willing to do anything to make the torment stop.

The other, of course, involves potential vacations in cool places…

Comment #20: MikeEss  on  11/01  at  07:02 PM

Nobody ever told them the unexamined life is not worth living

Generally they’re told quite the contrary, in fact.

Comment #21: Triplanetary  on  11/01  at  07:09 PM

As an April Fool’s baby, I wonder what the stats are for April 1 C-sections. It could either be a blessing or a curse. In my case? Blessing.

Also, regarding holiday wars and such , must share (plug) this comic I did.

http://johnnykaje.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/halloween2011.jpg

Comment #22: kaje  on  11/01  at  07:16 PM

I still don’t understand how “No, you cannot leave until I allow you to” isn’t false imprisonment. Other than Christians being special and allowed to do stuff that would get the rest of us arrested, of course.

They should have to explain their “Safety concerns” about allowing a grown-ass woman to leave to a judge.

Comment #23: JThompson  on  11/01  at  07:19 PM

However, I did have quite a few people who were NOT fundies say “Hopefully she isn’t born on Halloween.” So there seems to be a lot of superstition around Halloween even among people who go to church a couple times a year and are not fundamentalists.

Did you ask them what they meant? Maybe they meant “.... because then she’ll always have people ditching her birthday parties for trick or treating.” Or maybe you’re right that they were superstitious. Just wondering.

When is the biggest stretch of time with no holidays? Between New Years and Easter, maybe? Whenever that stretch is, that seems like the best time to have a birthday.

Comment #24: geogami  on  11/01  at  07:31 PM

Crissa’s right to want to see the whole thing.  I believe that some women who were due around then anyway might take a holiday into consideration if they were scheduling a ceasarian, but how do you actually do that?  I can’t imagine a doctor would make ‘it’s cool to have a Valentine’s b-day’ a high-priority consideration when scheduling you, and when it comes to holiday birthdays, being within two weeks of the holiday just doesn’t cut it.  So I’d need to see a graph with some pretty sharp dips and peaks on the days in question before I gave a shit about this trivia.

I know it’s just a little press release; and it does a good job -  I would totally look up the original paper assuming I had access to the journal.

Comment #25: Kyso K  on  11/01  at  07:32 PM

@ 4, All Saints Day is primarily a Catholic thing, and fundamentalists are often quite hostile to Catholicism. Many of them view the Catholic Church as an agent of Satan. Anyway, All Saints Day seems to have developed out of the church appropriating the same pagan festival that has also survived as Halloween (as with Christmas and Easter, though those were more thoroughly Christianised than All Hallows’ Evening and All Saints Day), so it could be argued that there is an internal logical consistency to the fundamentalists’ aversion to it, despite how silly it might look to others.

Comment #26: clevername  on  11/01  at  07:39 PM

I’ve discovered a great Valentine’s Day work around. Every year we throw a party, couples, singles, kids everyone is invited. Usually drink themed and we make personal pizzas for everyone. This way everybody avoids the overpriced dinner out, singles have a mingle party and the kids remind everyone what happens if they are careless later in the evening.
People start asking for invites right about now, matter of fact we got a couple at a Halloween Party last night.

Comment #27: jricker  on  11/01  at  07:43 PM

WTF?  Just about every haunted house has “chicken” doors, for the safety of the actors as well as the audience.  Nobody wants to have a tourist die of a heart attack or stroke because rescue workers couldn’t find the exit through the black curtains, and nobody wants their actors to die in a fire just because somebody knocked over a candle or didn’t wire the black lights right.  Most haunted houses even make their chicken door a point of pride, since the scarier the house is, the more tourists use the quick exit.

I’d say Mr. Hell House is looking for a charge of false imprisonment, if not reckless endangerment on this little propaganda mill.  Now, that would be a really scary ride.

Comment #28: Blue Jean  on  11/01  at  07:49 PM

I have sisters who were born on Halloween, Christmas, and Valentines Day.  The Halloween kid has by far the cooler party.

Comment #29: NobleExperiments  on  11/01  at  08:27 PM

jesusween.com

Comment #30: alysia  on  11/01  at  08:42 PM

Also, the difference between time share salesman and evangelicals is that what the time share salesman is pushing actually exists.

Comment #31: alysia  on  11/01  at  08:49 PM

WTF?  Just about every haunted house has “chicken” doors, for the safety of the actors as well as the audience.  Nobody wants to have a tourist die of a heart attack or stroke because rescue workers couldn’t find the exit through the black curtains, and nobody wants their actors to die in a fire just because somebody knocked over a candle or didn’t wire the black lights right.

Yes, but remember what Jesus said about the end justifying the means? Wait, that wasn’t Jesus?

Comment #32: Triplanetary  on  11/01  at  09:01 PM

Aren’t you going to have to do this kind of thing by region? I’d still bet there’s a big contribution from the younger staff who want to go out and get laid on hallowe’en.

Comment #33: paul  on  11/01  at  09:08 PM

#32 Triplanetary; LOL!  Don’t you remember when Jesus said “And lo, you shall lock them in your misleading Hell House even though it is against fire code regulation as well as civil law, and ye shall force them to view every silly scene in yon Hell house, even though it means ye could be sued out of yon skivvies at the best, and arrested and taken off to jail at the worst, because yon Hell House has lived up to its name and burned a dozen people to death within.”

Oh, wait, Jesus doesn’t say that..

Comment #34: Blue Jean  on  11/01  at  09:15 PM

Gotta disagree with the “awesome gifts” scenario for a 2/14 b-day.  If it’s anything like those of us with b-days anywhere near Christmas endure (and mine’s over a month before but I still experienced it) you get the “this one gift is for BOTH your birthday AND Christmas” while your sibling who was born in June made out like a bandit.  I don’t care now but, man, it chapped my hide when I was a kid!

Comment #35: DonnaDiva  on  11/01  at  09:33 PM

My guess re: c-sections is that there are probably more inductions & c-sections (the former leading to the latter in many cases) in February overall, because expectant parents IME tend to freak out about the weather around the due date if it could mean a difficult trip to the hospital.  I wouldn’t bet against some women noting that kids’ Valentine’s Day birthdays might jog partners’ memories, either.  And yeah, there’s the whole gloppily sentimental ‘you were the best Valentine’s Day gift I ever received, honey’ thing, which is less cool than Halloween but let’s be honest: baby stuff is more sentimental than cool in general.

Comment #36: latts  on  11/01  at  09:42 PM

It’s like hte opposite of having a Christmas birthday, which is the worst birthday to have, unless you have a family that doesn’t celebrate Christmas at all.
I was born on Christmas (well, either really late on Christmas or really early on the 26th, the power was out at the time. My mom decided to have my official date of birth be on Christmas), it’s not so bad. I’ve always gotten Christmas gifts in the morning and then had a birthday party (and gifts) that evening.

Comment #37: Devonian  on  11/01  at  10:16 PM

And yeah, there’s the whole gloppily sentimental ‘you were the best Valentine’s Day gift I ever received, honey’ thing,

Whenever I point that out to all the people I know with November birthdays all I get are glares. Maybe I should leave out the gloppy part…

Comment #38: scrumby  on  11/01  at  10:18 PM

I belive it because I was talking to a pregnant woman just last week who told me she was getting a c/section before her due date so that her kid wouldn’t risk being born on Halloween. Which is irresponsible of her doctor to do, I might add, because c/s births have the risks of any surgery and shouldn’t be done for stupid reasons. Like superstitions about Halloween. I don’t know if she was a fundie or not, it might just be that she didn’t want her kid born on an “unlucky” day devoted to scary things and death. You see this with people who aim for a July 7 (7/7) birthday, too, or other “lucky” days.

I would really look at superstitions around birth, as in astrology, more than I would fundie Halloween fears for this phenomena.

Comment #39: emjaybee  on  11/01  at  10:22 PM

My birthday is Xmas Eve, and it fucking sucks and always has. Especially because I loathe Christmas and everything associated with it—though this may be a chicken/egg issue. My wife gets to have her birthday in the middle of the summer, when everyone wants to party. By the time you get to Dec. 24th, everyone is sick to death of cheer and even the people who actually like you can’t be bothered to feel like celebrating. I always got the one present for both holidays thing from my cheap-ass parents. Also, totally hate winter, cold weather, snow, short days and long nights. Someday when I win the lotto I don’t play, I’ll have a house in New Zealand and I’ll live there from October-April of every year, so it can always be spring or summer.

Man, I should get therapy. Oh, and fundamentalists are stupid and evil.

Comment #40: felagund  on  11/01  at  10:59 PM

@ Chet ... spoken like a childless person. Even if it’s not your kid’s birthday, kids tend to be pretty attached to that whole trick-or-treat thing.

Comment #41: chingona  on  11/01  at  11:59 PM

So, the thing that’s weird to me about this is that typically, when they find higher c-section rates on certain days (like, oh, say, Friday at 5 p.m.), it’s typically associated with OBs wanting to get out of there and get to something in their non-work lives. The higher rates on Valentine’s Day would make sense under that theory. But you would think that on Halloween, they’d also want to get out of there - either to parties or to take their kids trick-or-treating.  So it is hard not to think there’s some patient preference going on.

And to the person who said OBs wouldn’t let you pick the date of a scheduled c-section? Uh, every person I know who has had a scheduled c-section (or even induction) has had the option of picking their date, provided it’s between Monday and Friday and not on a major holiday.

Comment #42: chingona  on  11/02  at  12:11 AM

Yeah, having kids means you aren’t going to be ducking out to any adult Halloween parties for, say, about 16 years or so—not at least until they’ve got their own parties to go to.

Comment #43: Captain Bathrobe  on  11/02  at  12:12 AM

I gotta say… birthday right after Valentine’s Day? Not so bad, actually. My son and I were both born February 16th, and my wife has made a habit of getting me discounted chocolates - works well for both of us. I love the chocolate, especially dark, and my wife loves the discounted price. I don’t require her to spend lots of money on me, just get me stuff I like.

We plan on combining my daughters near-Hallowe’en birthday with Hallowe’en parties when we move back to Canada, even though they’re two weeks apart. A week from each isn’t too bad, right?

Comment #44: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  11/02  at  02:19 AM

Halloween’s a great day for a child’s birthday. The holiday’s supposed to be about children, after all.

The fundamentalists, of course, are jerks on Halloween. But so is the urban hipster left, unfortunately. This day that is supposed to be about children having fun and eating candy has been sexualized and stolen from the kids by adults who could have easily chosen a different day for their bacchinal. Meanwhile the kids no longer can go out in groups, after dark, without adults and enjoy their candy.

This holiday belonged to children and all the adults screwed it up.

Comment #45: Dilan Esper  on  11/02  at  03:19 AM

Google isn’t going to support my questions, I was just saying that there are lots of reasons for variations which were not mentioned in the article, in fact, the article didn’t even link back to the study, so I can’t know that the article misrepresented the study.

Dilan, I don’t know of any place where children are less safe than they were in similar situations.  Are you saying teens didn’t ever cause trouble in the past?  That’s a rather stupid and easily disproved assertion, as crime is lower now than it was when children went in groups in the 50s.

Comment #46: Crissa  on  11/02  at  03:29 AM

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Comment #47: Monclerss Jackets  on  11/02  at  03:51 AM

Found the original article here on Google Scholar, if the link doesn’t work trying searching there for ‘Influence of Valentine’s Day and Halloween on Birth Timing’ authors are Levy, Chung and Slade - only the HTML works, the PDF doesn’t, for whatever reason.
However, as to the original questions of what they studied, they studied the week before and after the holiday itself, between 1996-2006, covered spontaneous, c-section, and induced births, between Caucasian, African-American and Mexican American women, adjusted for weekday/weekend, and the data set was pulled from all birth certificates in the United States via the National Center for Health Statistics.
Interestingly enough, Halloween also gets a 5% spontaneous births and a 18.7% induced birth drop. Bottom line, people don’t want Halloween babies, however they’re coming into the world.

The “women are manipulating the date” wasn’t part of the research, and no solid reasons are really offered in the research article itself as to why. But if I had to guess, I’m going with Amanda, there are enough religious types who go from ‘well it just seems like a bad luck day’ to ‘the child will be born with horns! NO NO NO!’ to explain those numbers.

I knew one older gentleman who had a Halloween birthday (born before Halloween was a thing), he said he always loved it, it was as if everyone was having a great party for his birthday.

Comment #48: Tenya  on  11/02  at  05:29 AM

I think as a kid it would be absolutely horrible to have your birthday on Halloween.  Ideally your birthday should be as far from any major holiday as possible to maximize presents and attention, but still during the school year so that most of your friends are around. Late May is probably optimal.

Comment #49: jcnighs  on  11/02  at  06:24 AM

This day that is supposed to be about children having fun and eating candy has been sexualized and stolen from the kids by adults who could have easily chosen a different day for their bacchinal.

Last week, I caught the tale end of something on TV about the history of Halloween. According to this program, for most of its American history, it was a holiday of dangerous pranks and petty arsons by young men that caused millions of dollars in damage and occasionally hurt or even killed people. There was a conscious effort (that included churches! gasp!) in the early 20th century to tame the holiday for children, and that effort was more successful than they could have imagined. I used to think like you (well, not exactly like you, but I used to think it was little odd that adults were so, so into Halloween and that when I was a kid, it seemed like all grown-ups did was hand out candy), but now I think maybe we’re just getting tugged back toward the holiday’s raucous origins. And really, it’s a fun holiday with very few social expectations. What’s not to love? As the parent of young kids, I’ve seen no evidence that adults having a good time impinges on my kids having a good time in any way. Most of the adult parties are on the weekend before, not the day of, anyway. The holiday has always been a little dangerous. The first commercial costumes were paper .... and very flammable. Cars mixed with little kids darting everywhere after dark will sometimes end in tragedy. I love to get my hipster hate on, but I just don’t see them *doing* anything to kids here.

Comment #50: chingona  on  11/02  at  06:55 AM

Related only in the most tangential way: Pregnancy-themed costumes: A friend and his wife, who is pregnant, went as breakfast - a strip of bacon and a sunny-side up egg. She wore an over-sized white t-shirt with a hole cut for her belly (the yolk). Last year, another friend who was pregnant went as a stork.

Also: pumpkins giving birth.

I think this one had a home birth.

Comment #51: chingona  on  11/02  at  07:01 AM

Trying that second link again: http://images.google.com/imgres?q=pumpkin+birth&hl=en&biw=1122&bih=565&gbv=2&tbm=isch&tbnid=A_-OiAm7fxb62M:&imgrefurl=http://www.endlesssimmer.com/2011/10/28/the-best-of-the-pumpkin-a-jack-olantern-home-birth/&docid=OOv6UZ-njjPSLM&imgurl=http://www.endlesssimmer.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/pumpkin-giving-birth.jpg&w=500&h=375&ei=PCKxTpLyJaiIiAKatpHVDw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=825&vpy=257&dur=2860&hovh=194&hovw=259&tx=182&ty=162&sig=111266080560375183075&page=2&tbnh=161&tbnw=216&start=23&ndsp=10&ved=1t:429,r:9,s:23

Comment #52: chingona  on  11/02  at  07:02 AM

@Comment #30: alysia on 11/01 at 08:42 PM

jesusween.com

Huh, huh, you said Jesus Ween. </butthead>

Comment #53: atheist  on  11/02  at  08:09 AM

[blockqoute]The fundamentalists, of course, are jerks on Halloween. But so is the urban hipster left, unfortunately. This day that is supposed to be about children having fun and eating candy has been sexualized and stolen from the kids by adults who could have easily chosen a different day for their bacchinal. Meanwhile the kids no longer can go out in groups, after dark, without adults and enjoy their candy.

Thanks for the reminder that childless twenty-somethings have no business living and working near normal, respectable families. Here I thought the neighborhood kids were amused by my friends yelling “awesome costume” while I handed out candy but in reality they must have been giggling to cover their shame and fear at our perversions.

Comment #54: scrumby  on  11/02  at  09:06 AM

Perhaps women who already have kids want to not be in the hospital having a c-section the day someone needs to take their already born kids trick or treating?

Comment #55: helen w. h.  on  11/02  at  09:20 AM

Amanda @ 9:

The report looked at the results of 1.7 million births from two-week periods in February and October of 2006 to explore factors that affect delivery times. The findings are in the October issue of the journal Social Science and Medicine.

Per the article you linked to, the study looked at only one year, 2006, and for 2 weeks surrounding the holiday.  That raises all sorts of issues as to whether the study has any validity at all outside of that one year.  The study itself may not have suggested this is a major trend based on such flimsy and limited data, but this blurb seems to.

Comment #56: helen w. h.  on  11/02  at  09:31 AM

Tenya’s comment fleshes out the basis of the study, but that isn’t what the article linked said (which was, suprise suprise, inaccurate).

Comment #57: helen w. h.  on  11/02  at  09:49 AM

Chingona, where I grew up (Upper Michigan) we’d pretty much displaced that aspect of Halloween onto Devil’s Night, which we called Fawkes Night for unknown reasons. We were all about the roving petty vandalism aspects.

I couldn’t believe it one time when the most disliked teacher in the high school happened to drive by the vacant lot downtown where there were a couple dozen teenagers and preteens gathered and well-armed with eggs.

Comment #58: witless chum  on  11/02  at  10:00 AM

As someone who’s birthday was yesterday, I just have to interject that halloween is the BEST time to have a birthday. Like Amanda said, all my parties growing up were costume parties, and now that I’m an adult, I never ever have to throw a party for myself, someone else always does (thus, I can dress up and eat junk and have a great time without any of that pesky planning stuff or cleaning up to do. I’m also not much of a party animal, so I’m free to go home and go to bed when I’m done and it’s not rude as it would be if I was the host or the main reason for the party). I’ve always loved dressing up, candy and sort of macabre themed stuff, but it’s sort of chicken or egg whether that’s because of my halloween adjacent birthday or just a bonus. My mom always jokes about my sweeth tooth being the reason I was born 2 weeks early; I somehow knew she was handing out candy to other peoples’ kids and just had to COME OUT RIGHT NOW.

Plus, fall is my favorite time of year, what with the crisp, cold weather and the short days and that weird burnt leaf/cookie smell that’s always in the air.

Long story short, halloween season is the best time of year.

Comment #59: akzidenzgrotesk  on  11/02  at  10:01 AM

The fundies are hypocrites.  This seems to be a given when looking at anything they do.  Their obsession with Halloween has always confounded me, though, because the whole purpose of dressing up and carving faces in pumpkins (previously, turnips in the UK) was to keep evil spirits *at bay* on All Hallows Eve, when the dead walk the earth.  But expecting rationality from fundies is like expecting whales to learn to play the cello - it’s just not happening. 

We went to one of those “Hell Houses” a few years ago, on a lark, at Halloween.  The blatant idiocy and bad science on display was actually hilarious, though if we’d been exposed to something like the writer’s experience, we’d have been really pissed (the one we went to was ostensibly for children).  Lots of nonsense about drugs (though a great fun trippy house walk with lots of psychedelic black lights), and at the end, a moralizing walk through the “Garden of Light”, which the girl at the gate really tried to dissuade us from going on, not because we were being all hipster ironic, but because she really thought we wouldn’t enjoy it.  We did - by speculating about what the people within had done to get community service sentences, since they so obviously and completely did not want to be there.

We still reminisce about it fondly, but if someone tried to take one of my grandchildren to one, we’d be having a long, serious talk.

Comment #60: attack_laurel  on  11/02  at  10:04 AM

Here are some of the (unintentionally) funniest examples of fundie halloween freakouts, courtesy of the inimitable Jack Chick:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1053/1053_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0032/0032_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0058/0058_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1065/1065_01.asp

and, as a special bonus, a guide to ruining everyone else’s fun:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1010/1010_01.asp

Comment #61: DataSnake  on  11/02  at  10:18 AM

@ #50 jcnighs - yes!! my birthday is Memorial Day at the end of May, which happens to be one of those lovely 3-day weekend holidays. of course it’s a movable feast, but I can always count on having the extra day off to celebrate or travel.

also - this is a Halloween tangent, but from working in animal shelters I know that black cats (and, to a lesser extent, black dogs) are far less likely to be adopted than any other color. I don’t know if it’s superstition or what.

Comment #62: shade  on  11/02  at  10:22 AM

Whenever I point that out to all the people I know with November birthdays all I get are glares. Maybe I should leave out the gloppy part…

My birthday occasionally falls on Thanksgiving day.  Personally, while having it fall on a major US holiday is annoying at times, having it fall on Halloween or St. Valentine’s would be worse for me as those tend to be candy/cake oriented holidays and I don’t have a sweet tooth.*

When trick or treating as a kid, there were times I wished they tossed out potato chips, pretzels, beef jerky, hot dogs, sliders, roast pork buns, or any salty type snack.  Consequently, I enjoy having the roasted turkey or goose serve in lieu of a birthday cake.  smile

I’ve noticed the Fundie anti-Halloween campaign in some areas of Boston when I lived up there in the early to mid-aughts.  However, there were just as many evangelical families I knew who felt the anti-Halloweeners were taking things to such absurd extremes they actually made it a point to decorate their homes for Halloween, dress up, and give candy for passing trick or treaters. 

* Conversely, Halloween happens to be one of my dad’s favorite holidays precisely because he has a sweet tooth I obviously never inherited.  Seems like I take more after mom in this respect.

Comment #63: exholt  on  11/02  at  10:57 AM

The Valentine’s Day C-Sections are because of all the people celebrating the Feast of Engelmund of Velsen, of course.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engelmund_of_Velsen

Comment #64: James  on  11/02  at  11:27 AM

‘the child will be born with horns! NO NO NO!’

Heh. I just heard that in my head in a Dwight Schrute voice.

Comment #65: junk science  on  11/02  at  11:40 AM

According to this program, for most of its American history, it was a holiday of dangerous pranks and petty arsons by young men that caused millions of dollars in damage and occasionally hurt or even killed people.

There are violent roots hidden in the American version of Christmas:

Christmas in America hasn’t always been the benevolent, family-centered holiday we idealize. The Puritans of the Massachusetts Bay Colony so feared the day’s association with pagan winter solstice revels, replete with public drunkenness, licentiousness and violence, that they banned Christmas celebrations. In this ever-surprising work, Nissenbaum (Sex, Diet, and Debility in Jacksonian America), a professor of history at the University of Massachusetts, conducts a vivid historical tour of the holiday’s social evolution. Nissenbaum maintains that not until the 1820s in New York City, among the mercantile Episcopalian Knickerbockers, was Christmas as we know it celebrated. Before Washington Irving and Clement Clarke Moore (“A Visit from St. Nicholas”) popularized the genteel version, he explains, the holiday was more of a raucous festival and included demands for tribute from the wealthy by roaming bands of lower-class extortionists. Peppering his insights with analysis of period literature, art and journalism, Nissenbaum constructs his theory. Taming Christmas, he contends, was a way to contain the chaos of social dislocation in a developing consumer-capitalist culture. Later, under the influence of Unitarian writers, the Christmas season became a living object lesson in familial stability and charity, centering on the ideals of bourgeois childhood. From colonial New England, through 18th- and 19th-century New York’s and Philadelphia’s urban Yuletide contributions, to Christmas traditions in the antebellum South, Nissenbaum’s excursion is fascinating, and will startle even those who thought they knew all there was to know about Christmas

This would be a good book to Bamboo Review in a few weeks or so, Amanda, you should be able to find a library copy living in NYC and all that.  grin

Comment #66: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/02  at  11:54 AM

My birthday is Cinco de Mayo.  Best.  Birthday.  Ever.  Drink specials make it so everyone is willing to buy you free drinks, and as soon as the bar figures out it’s my actual birthday, I get all kinds of free T-shirts and beer koozies.

Comment #67: speedbudget  on  11/02  at  12:05 PM

As an April Fool’s baby, I wonder what the stats are for April 1 C-sections. It could either be a blessing or a curse. In my case? Blessing.

I suspected it would be awesome. We hoped my niece would be born on April 1. She held on until about 2am on April 2, the little party pooper.

Comment #68: shakahi  on  11/02  at  01:12 PM

Cinco de Mayo is another example of the problem.

Basically, a lot of urbanites want excuses to get drunk and party, so they appropriate days that should belong to other groups to do it. If you aren’t Mexican, you shouldn’t be getting plastered on Cinco de Mayo, sorry.

And yes, Halloween IS worse for kids now. Yes they still have some fun, but it’s all so supervised and regulated. It’s far less fun for them.

Fundies are wrong because they just think the sex is bad. But urban culture does tend to take just about any celebration and turn it into an excuse to drink and fuck to excess. Hijacking a children’s holiday to do that is pretty tasteless.

Comment #69: Dilan Esper  on  11/02  at  01:26 PM

Dilan, I have lived places with special rules for Halloween, and adults’ partying was not the reason for them.  Trick-or-treating hours set the times kids can run around ringing strangers’ doorbells as a courtesy to residents, not because it’s sooooo dangerous for the children to be outdoors at the same time as drunk 20-somethings in fishnets.  Any additional regulations in the rules-loving suburb where I grew up were mostly to police teenagers, not adults.  Neighborhoods where kids might actually go out were a car ride away from anywhere adults might be out celebrating, anyway.

I currently live in a neighborhood that is a big party area for young people—especially costume parties.  There just aren’t that many kids living here, and not that many houses where trick-or-treating is practical anyway.  In the city, unlike in the suburbs, this isn’t the end of the world because it’s easy to take public transportation to a more kid-oriented neighborhood for the evening.

The only area I’ve lived where adult parties caused a problem were college towns, but most of the complaints were from parents who had to work in the morning, not parents worried about their kids’ safety.  Families and college students did live in close proximity where I went to school, but the only safety tips I could find from the city were about drivers, not troublemaking single adults.  And if parties were a problem for those families, there were a lot of other nice neighborhoods available to them where single people didn’t really live—just like in cities!

I have no idea where you’re getting this rant, but it seems kinda… Made up.  Unless you’re saying it’s really the job of people who don’t have kids and don’t live around or interact with kids to make all their housing, wardrobes, and free time suitable for children under 10, just in case?  Even when no actual children are harmed or even present?

Comment #70: themmases  on  11/02  at  02:09 PM

My wife is partial to candy corn on Halloween and while looking for some in the candy aisle in my suburban grocery store chain I came across a bags of candy corn containing small packets, each packet having a Bible scripture selection on it.  It was called something like “Jesus seeds” and was very much like this http://www.guidinglightvideo.com/shop/candy2.html (scroll to the bottom of the page for “Harvest Seeds”). 

I’ve run across fundies who don’t let their kids participate because they see it as devil worship and I’ve seen ads for Hell Houses.  I always felt sorry for the kids.  If I find a kindred spirit to make fun of the fundies together I might take a tour of one of the houses next year.

Comment #71: MiddleageLiberal  on  11/02  at  02:10 PM

Here in the Toronto area we got bombs planted in a costume store http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20111102/organized-crime-probes-toronto-bomb-scare-111102/20111102/?hub=TorontoNewHome

The only motive I can think of other than random violence is religious fundamentalism.

Comment #72: m5  on  11/02  at  03:16 PM

And yes, Halloween IS worse for kids now. Yes they still have some fun, but it’s all so supervised and regulated. It’s far less fun for them.


This is true, but it has nothing to do with adults partying. It’s just how life is now. Many books, each with its own theory, have been written about this phenomenon. It doesn’t make sense to single out one holiday and claim that if adults didn’t hold costume parties on Halloween, somehow we’d go back to the days when kids roamed wild and free.

Comment #73: chingona  on  11/02  at  03:20 PM

Cinco de Mayo is another example of the problem.

Basically, a lot of urbanites want excuses to get drunk and party, so they appropriate days that should belong to other groups to do it. If you aren’t Mexican, you shouldn’t be getting plastered on Cinco de Mayo, sorry.

In Mexico, Cinco de Mayo is barely a blip on the radar. There’s nothing there to appropriate.

Comment #74: chingona  on  11/02  at  03:23 PM

Ticky, my birthday is on the 20th! Don’t worry, it’s better to be on the 20th than on the 31st, because it means you get a birthday and *then* you get Halloween, and it just makes the entire month of October that much more awesome.

My daughter was born 6/5/2006. I had a c-section scheduled for 6/7/06, not because I was trying to avoid 6/6/06, but because that was the day they told me the OB would be available to do it. But the kid decided to be born without waiting for the c-section. I personally think it would have been awesome had she waited one more day, but her personality is ill suited to it; she’s more the sparkly fairy princess type. Whereas my boy who “wants to be a mad scientist who works with the human body” and who was a demon for Halloween, except “a demon who looks like a person, except he has skeleton hands and carries a pitchfork”, would have really appreciated a 6/6/06 birthday, but he’s in March. And born in ‘04.

It’s possible that the surgeons don’t want to schedule c-sections on Oct 31st because if you don’t schedule it for that day, then you run the risk the kid will just be born then, but if you *do* then you are definitely going to have to work on Halloween and not be able to get out with your kids. grin I was told when my boy was born that they would induce me on a Monday because Monday was when all the technicians would be in, whereas the weekend they had a limited staff. Oct 31 might have something similar.

Comment #75: Alara J Rogers  on  11/02  at  03:23 PM

My youngest daughter’s birthday is March 17. The good news is, she will get free birthday drinks for her entire life (when she’s of age). The bad news - they’ll be green.

I’d like to think that Halloween is a bad time for c-sections because the medical profession are attending parties dressed as sexy doctors and sexy nurses.

Comment #76: aiabx  on  11/02  at  03:51 PM

Oh, and Dilan Esper, you actually don’t know anything about the history of Halloween, do you?

In *my* entire lifetime, and I’m over 40, Halloween was both a fun trick or treating holiday for kids, *and* a party holiday for adults… but the party holiday for adults meaning is far, far older.

Also, how the hell is it appropriation to celebrate some other culture’s holiday? I’d consider that a mark of respect for that culture. Holidays are created as a celebration; when other people celebrate along with you, that’s a *good* thing.

Comment #77: Alara J Rogers  on  11/02  at  03:53 PM

To be fair, the fundamentalists against Halloween are also against celebrations on Christmas (with the whole pagan Tree/Santa Claus thing going on), so they’re not the hypocrites. Just stupid.

Comment #78: JohnL  on  11/02  at  07:27 PM

No, being against Halloween is far far more common than opposition to Christmas. A whole big church where i grew up was not allowed to celebrate it and they were also big into “putting the CHRIST back in christmas” and under the impression that saying happy holidays is the same as making christmas illegal.

Comment #79: alysia  on  11/02  at  08:01 PM

Unless they have a break in the case and I missed it, it’s a little premature to blame the Amazing Party and Costume Store bombs on fundies. It could be one of their competitors, it could be someone who wants revenge on the owner, it could be someone who gets off on the thought of killing people with bombs, or it could be something else entirely. This is not to say that there is no fundie aspect to it, but it’s not a given.

Comment #80: befuggled  on  11/03  at  03:41 PM

As a former homeshooled, evangelical fundie, I can tell you that not only was Halloween and any aspect of celebrating this holiday heralded as “providing a foothold for Satan” but to truly understand why it was so evil, my siblings and I had to watch evangelical videos about the occult and how it tied to the “seemingly harmless” acts of dressing up and trick-or-treating.  Above all, we traditionally when to the “Tribulation House” - which was essentially a horror house built on the “End Days” events from the book of Revelation.  It short - super fucked up and traumatizing.  And even though all of that is horse shit to me now, I still can’t seem to get into the Halloween spirit that so many of my friends are so jazzed up by.  Without any nostalgia of childhood fun, coming up with a costume idea just sounds stressful. smile

Comment #81: agky  on  11/03  at  07:12 PM

aiabx, as a medical professional, I dress as anything other than something medical!

Comment #82: Jodi  on  11/04  at  02:10 PM

Lol, I came to make the comment about “if they’re going to object to Halloween they need to object to Christmas and Easter, too, they’re the same mix of pagan and Christian” but I see plenty of other Pandagonians beat me to it. We’re a smart bunch.

I mean, for fuck’s sake, Easter even keeps its pagan name in English.

Comment #83: Erda  on  11/04  at  07:15 PM
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