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Next entry: Today in the wingnuttery Olympics Previous entry: Why on earth is the President talking to *women*?

Why Yes, Virginia, You Can Be Barred From Getting A Degree If You Won’t Do The Work

Julea Ward was a counseling student at Eastern Michigan University, and a devout Christian.  The requirements of the program she entered complied with the American Counseling Association’s Code of Ethics.  In part, a counselor is required to engage with clients who may possess values, whether cultural or religious, that differ from theirs.  (PDF Link, Sections A.4.b and C.5.)

The short version of this story is that Ward didn’t want to counsel a gay client because it made her feel uncomfortable, and the school responded by expelling her:

The dispute that led to the litigation started in 2009, when Ward was enrolled in the practicum in which she was to engage in actual counseling. Faced with an appointment with a client whose file indicated past discussion of a gay relationship, Ward asked to refer the candidate to another counselor rather than engage in any counseling that could “affirm the client’s homosexual behavior.” Since this was two hours before the appointment, the supervising counselor canceled the appointment, but set off disciplinary hearings that eventually led to Ward being kicked out of the program.

Eastern Michigan’s counseling program—like many others—requires its students to practice in ways that are consistent with the counseling association’s ethics code, including requirements that bar behavior that reflects an “inability to tolerate different points of view,” “imposing values” on clients or discrimination based on a number of factors, including sexual orientation. The counseling association does permit referrals, but they are supposed to be for the good of the client, not for the comfort of the counselor. Typically, a referral that would be seen as legitimate might involve a counselor referring someone to a colleague with expertise on a particular problem.

A federal judge upheld the expulsion, which but for the religious aspect would have been largely uncontroversial.  Of course, she’s a.) a conservative Christian; b.) represented by the Alliance Defense Fund; and c.) the government is involved, which means that it’s time to start wailing about the end of religious freedom as we know it.

Hot Air (discussing a similar case in Georgia where a conservative Christian student was asked to be sensitive to the needs of gay clients):

It sounds to me like the ACA wants a “don’t ask, don’t tell” rule for religion.  That runs square into the First Amendment, especially for a state-run school.  The ACA’s idea of who comes first doesn’t get to trump the restriction on freedom of religious exercise.  If clients get off-put by Keeton’s approach to counseling, they can look for another counselor.  Now, the ACA can decide not to certify her; as a private organization, they have that prerogative.  If they do that explicitly based on her religious belief, however, they may have a problem with that in court, especially as it will block Keeton’s ability to make a living.

Well, here’s the problem.  Professional certification guidelines are, generally, constitutional.  One of the requirements of the degree both the Georgia and Michigan students are pursuing is that they treat clients equally and respectfully, and don’t impose their personal beliefs on their clients.  It has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with the requirements of the job they voluntarily pursued.  Sorry that they don’t want to do the job because of their religion, but it’s really not the school’s problem.

Erick “Everyone’s Fucking Goats But Me, Really” Erickson has the following to say:

In Michigan, a federal judge has upheld the expulsion of a graduate school student for believing homosexuality is morally wrong.

No.  That’s not what happened.  You have a First Amendment right to believe what you want without the government barring you from believing it or forcing you to believe something else.  You don’t have a First Amendment right to grant yourself a blanket exemption from the religion-neutral requirements of the professional degree you voluntarily chose to pursue. 

I understand why conservative Christians push these suits - it’s an effort to dominate and define the culture around their needs.  But what’s telling is that these students chose to go into a profession whose requirements were readily accessible before they ever set foot in a classroom.  You can read the ACA’s Code of Ethics, you can talk to counselors about their jobs.  They shouldn’t be confronted or expelled because of their religious beliefs; they should be confronted or expelled because they went in intending to be bad counselors and are shocked - shocked!!! - when they’re treated accordingly. 

UPDATE:  Julea Ward would probably have a stronger case if she could, you know, keep her story straight.  More below.
Here’s the video that the ADF produced to present Ward’s

TV movie pitch

side of the story.

The opening line:

“Julea Ward, a graduate student from Eastern Michigan University, followed her conscience and respectfully denied instructions to counsel an individual regarding a same-sex relationship in which he was involved.”

Ward, 25 seconds later:

“Now, I had never refused to counsel homosexuals, I had simply refused to affirm their lifestyle.”

From the ADF’s writeup on Ward:

A few days later, Julea came into the clinic early for an appointment with a potential client. Looking through his file, she learned he was seeking counsel about a homosexual relationship. She also saw that a previous counselor had affirmed his homosexual behavior – something Julea was unwilling to do.

Before meeting with the client, she put in a call to her adviser.

“What should I do?” she asked. “Should I meet with this client, and refer him if it becomes necessary … if he’s looking for affirmation for this homosexual relationship that he’s involved in? Or, should I not meet with him, so that rapport is not established, and simply have him assigned to another counselor?”

You see, I’ve been completely unfair to Ward.  She didn’t refuse to counsel homosexual clients at all!

She just refused to counsel homosexual clients if there was any chance their homosexuality would come up in any way, shape or form, which is totally different, because nobody ever goes to counseling to talk about their relationships. 

 

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Posted by Jesse Taylor on 10:26 AM • (121) Comments

Oh man, are we on our way to “conscience clauses” for counselors, too (as many states currently have for pharmacists)?!?  That could be catastrophic for a lot of patients.  What’s really disturbing is none of the people railing against this ruling seem to even consider the fact that refusal of service can have a severe impact on the people they are meant to be treating.  I don’t get that mindset at all.

Comment #1: Blitzgal  on  07/29  at  10:40 AM

Keep in mind these same people would complain if someone in the same program refused to counsel devoutly religious students and the school allowed it.  Which is the whole point.

Comment #2: Jesse Taylor  on  07/29  at  10:45 AM

Soon, conservative Christians will be able to refuse services to evolutionary biologists and climate scientists, too!

Comment #3: Nimue  on  07/29  at  10:46 AM

Julea Ward doesn’t realize the providing counseling is a requirement for those with a degree in (wait for it)... COUNSELING? What’s the next headline? “Plumber outraged when asked to unclog pipe”? Being a conservative Christian is never having to accept the rules apply to you too.

Comment #4: Dan2108  on  07/29  at  10:56 AM

I’d like to convene a synod of the Discoballmousetarians to consider a resolution against the writing of dissertations.  I’d love to get me some more advanced degrees, but the writing of a dissertation kinda sucks.  If I can just claim a religious objection though…

Comment #5: libdevil  on  07/29  at  11:07 AM

Question:
My conscience demands that I ram my car into any other car displaying a “Jesus Fish” sticker.  But the government has laws against that, and wants to charge me if I do so.  Can I sue for violation of my 1st Amendment rights? 
Perplexed in Cali

...

Dear Perplexed:
Christians are the one group in America whose rights override everyone else’s.  (Just ask the Founding Fathers, who were all good, practicing Southern Baptists — years before there was even a Southern Baptist Church!)  To even think of doing something that violates their rights - civil, political, economic, etc. - is a crime against the state (and quite frankly should require capital punishment).

I’m turning over all information related to how you sent in this question to the FBI.  I hope they figure out who you are and send your CommunoFascist Dirty Hippie Atheist butt to Bagram AFB for waterboarding before burning you at the stake…

Comment #6: MikeEss  on  07/29  at  11:15 AM

I should of thought of this when I was in school…“Its against my religion to study & take tests. I’m here to take bong hits & try to get laid. Now give me my damn degree!”

Comment #7: Mark  on  07/29  at  11:15 AM

Damn I’m so sick of this attitude.  Whose trying to get special rights again?  Oh yeah, those uppity homosexuals who want to be treated like human beings.  Not those good Christian Conservatives who just want to exercise their God-given right to ignore any and all rules they don’t happen to like.

Comment #8: carovee  on  07/29  at  11:17 AM

If your religious beliefs make you incapable of doing what therapists and counselors do, which is help people live their own lives and not yours, you should look for another line of work.  Clergy, maybe, but I hope not.

Maybe it’s helpful to consider the opposite situation.  When I was a peer counselor in college, I encountered a few people who happened to mention conservative political and religious views I didn’t particularly like.  But I knew that clearly wasn’t the issue, that wasn’t why they had come seeking help, and was able to do my two-bit “how does that make you feel” and “what do you think your options are” spiel I’d been taught, so they could talk it out.  I would imagine that’s how most folks would view counseling anyone who had a different view of life than their own.  Too bad it’s not reciprocal, at least not in this case.

Comment #9: cb1000  on  07/29  at  11:17 AM

“What’s the next headline? “Plumber outraged when asked to unclog pipe”?”

As long as the pipes belong to someone gay, the plumber should have every right to refuse to do their job, just like if the person with clogged pipes is a Negro, or a Mexican, or a fat chick, or voted Democrat.  This is how we preserve Freedom! and Liberty! in America…

Comment #10: MikeEss  on  07/29  at  11:22 AM

“If your religious beliefs make you incapable of doing what therapists and counselors do, which is help people live their own lives and not yours, you should look for another line of work.”

I hear there’s a real shortage of Christian pharmacists who use their beliefs to decide which prescriptions they will fill or not fill, depending on the client, the client’s religious and political beliefs, sexual orientation, and why they want the medication…

Comment #11: MikeEss  on  07/29  at  11:29 AM

What, ten comments in, and nobody has invoked a Christian Scientist pharmacist or a Jehovah’s Witness transfusion tech?

Comment #12: Dr. Psycho  on  07/29  at  11:31 AM

Somebody needs to go back and read her bible ... something about “least of these” and “good Samaritan”. 

Pretty obvious what Jesus would do here - then again, the man was known for his counseling and traveling with all manner of people in recovery from lives of drugs and crime, fallen women, etc.

She can’t even claim religious exemption here.

Comment #13: Ms Kate  on  07/29  at  11:33 AM

As someone who’s had short bouts of therapy, I’m not there to hear a counselor’s referendum on my values or religion.  I’m there because I’m depressed and I need help getting out of that rut.  I don’t expect my therapist to agree with my politics, etc.  I just expect her to listen, and to do whatever it is that therapists do to help their patients think through problems, emotions, and habits—even if what I’m upset about that day is, say, my Congress critters’ actions on a particular political issue. 

And I am acutely aware that when I’m speaking with my therapist that her views and mine likely don’t align.  However, as she is a professional, I have absolutely no idea what her religious and political views are.  Because her job is to help me.  It’s not my job to make sure she’s completely comfortable with everything I say at all times.

I just don’t get what it is with a particular brand of conservative Christian that insists and demands that their right to never deal with anything that disagrees with their beliefs—forget about anything that *challenges* their beliefs—always trumps other people’s right to both their own beliefs and professional service.  These same Christians would doubtless shit a brick if, say, an atheist invoked a conscience clause and refused to do their job for a conservative Christian.

Comment #14: Karinna A.  on  07/29  at  11:33 AM

It’s actually bigger than just not wanting to counsel gay people.  Actually, they want to counsel gays, they just want to counsel them to stop being gay.

They are trying to silently get into the mix of society and then exert their influence where it’s not wanted.  If they became priests, ministers, nuns or pastoral counselors, people would know what they were getting when they engaged their services.  This way, they can hit people when they are vulnerable.

It’s like recruiting, only for real.

Comment #15: oldfeminist  on  07/29  at  11:55 AM

I think I should refuse to fix the computers at student health because they give out erroneous and wrong advice regarding abortion and reproductive health (following state and federal laws backed and passed by lying Christian Fundamentalist lawmakers).

I dare the state to fire or punish me.

Comment #16: idiosynchronic  on  07/29  at  12:08 PM

Let’s not get all 21st Century P.C. with Jesus, Ms. Kate, and remember that it was all accusations:

And I, the Son of Man, feast and drink, and you say, `He’s a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of the worst sort of sinners!

Matthew Chapter 11 verse 19.

Comment #17: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  07/29  at  12:14 PM

I’m awfully happy to read about this. I often wonder why there aren’t state licensing boards yanking the certifications of providers who think their worldviews trump the people they serve. It’s what I will do when I am a state bureaucrat, dammit!

Comment #18: benvolio  on  07/29  at  12:25 PM

My father, who is a counselor educator at a university, told me a story of one of his students that was eventually dismissed from the program: during an advanced class session, my father and his students had a discussion about counseling people with different values, beliefs, etc.  When the subject turned to counseling homosexual people, one of his students strongly objected to the idea that she would not be allowed, according to the ethics code, counsel any homosexual client of hers to stop being homosexual.  My father basically told her that no, she couldn’t do that, and if she tried, it would lead to disciplinary action, much like it did in this case.  When she was dismissed from the program (for a variety of reasons), she accused my dad of being a closeted homosexual who was dismissing her in retaliation against her belief that homosexuality was wrong.  This probably happens more often than the folks at Hot Air realize, but here’s something they obviously don’t: counseling students who are so rigid in their personal beliefs are unlikely to be effective and ethical professionals should they ever complete their programs.  As Karinna said in #14, counseling is about the client, not the counselor.  And students that cannot strike a balance between their personal lives and the client’s do more harm than good.

Comment #19: mythbri  on  07/29  at  12:37 PM

There appears to be a split on this among Christians.  Some believe that there’s nothing you can get from therapy that you can’t get better from Jesus.  And others believe that anyone who comes for therapy really just needs more Jesus.  And others think that Jesus is good for some things, and therapy is good for others.  And then there’s Jesus.  What did he think again?

Comment #20: cb1000  on  07/29  at  12:44 PM

Ward can always just go to Regent University.  Her agenda will be well serviced there, and it will be clear to any future employers just what kind of education she got.  Everyone wins.

Comment #21: Blitzgal  on  07/29  at  01:06 PM

With Keeton, the counseling student in Georgia, the school hasn’t even taken action to expel her—they ordered her to do some sensitivity training, and suggested she go make a nuisance of herself at the nearest gay pride. But at least since she filed the lawsuit, they haven’t actually done anything to keep her from becoming a school councilor. I kind of expect she’ll be throwing bibles at unexpecting gay high school students in no time. But she’s giving plenty of whiny interviews anyway, complaining about how the school is violating her rights for ‘expressing her Christian beliefs.’

Comment #22: impossibletospell  on  07/29  at  01:10 PM

Surely a religious practice that doesn’t prevent you from serving all patients fairly and treating their actual problems is a BFOQ, no?

Faced with an appointment with a client whose file indicated past discussion of a gay relationship, Ward asked to refer the candidate to another counselor rather than engage in any counseling that could “affirm the client’s homosexual behavior.” Since this was two hours before the appointment, the supervising counselor canceled the appointment, but set off disciplinary hearings that eventually led to Ward being kicked out of the program.

Is it overly cynical of me to postulate that she deliberately waited until it was so close to that she’d likely be disciplined? I mean, there’s nothing wrong with making a point of testing the policy, but don’t pretend you’re not.

If she weren’t trying to get kicked out as a demonstration of how persecuted bigots are, she could have said well in advance “I cannot in good conscience treat homosexuals without trying to cure their terrible affliction.”

She still might have gotten kicked out, but it would have looked more innocent. And saved everyone a lot of time and trouble.

This isn’t like asking to attend prom, because being allowed to attend prom is the default and because that wasn’t last-minute on the student’s part.

What’s really disturbing is none of the people railing against this ruling seem to even consider the fact that refusal of service can have a severe impact on the people they are meant to be treating.  I don’t get that mindset at all.
Comment 1—Blitzgal

I don’t think people who refuse to counsel suicidal LGBT patients are any more unaware of what they’re doing than pharmacists who refuse to sell Plan B.

Comment #23: Hershele Ostropoler  on  07/29  at  01:18 PM

You know, I’m getting more and more pissed about this the more I think about it, because you know these lawsuits will continue until they get the “conscience clause” that they’re looking for.  The power dynamic between doctor and patient is already very skewed, which is why ethics rules are so very important.  If counselors are allowed to go in and browbeat their patients with a particular agenda there are going to be some very dangerous and even life threatening results.  I’m definitely going to watch this issue closely.  This is exactly how the pharmacists thing started out—lawsuit after lawsuit until the codes were rewritten.

Comment #24: Blitzgal  on  07/29  at  01:21 PM

I can’t see why even the most conservative Christian counseling service in the world would want to bother with a counselor who’d blow off a patient *two hours* before the appointment time, for *whatever* reason.

Comment #25: violinsontv  on  07/29  at  01:27 PM

Hey guess what! Counseling is NOT ABOUT THE COUNSELOR. Just like pharmacy is not about the pharmacist and driving a bus is not about the bus driver. You are there to do your job, which involves helping the client to do a variety of things - get where she’s going, get medicine to stay healthy, or get emotional support and direction on maintaining positive behaviors. Your basis for health or positive behaviors starts and ends with the client’s needs and desires.

Comment #26: cifweltr  on  07/29  at  01:28 PM

And from the start, the same thing I immediately thought of, the outgrowth of pharmacists ability to refuse to do the job they were hired for if it hurts their sense of being in charge of other people’s sexual lives.  It’s even the same broad field (medicine).
I think the same standards that were brought to bear here should apply to the pharmacists, actually, not vice versa.  They should have their licensing bared or revolked if they refuse to fill legal perscriptions.

Comment #27: helen w. h.  on  07/29  at  01:53 PM

  Ward asked to refer the candidate to another counselor rather than engage in any counseling that could “affirm the client’s homosexual behavior.” ...

I don’t think people who refuse to counsel suicidal LGBT patients are any more unaware of what they’re doing than pharmacists who refuse to sell Plan B.
Comment #23: Hershele Ostropoler on 07/29 at 12:18 PM

But in this case, she wasn’t refusing to counsel the patient.  She was refusing to counsel a patient in a way that affirm the patient’s homosexual behavior, which to this student could include not telling the patient that homosexuality is wrong and causing the patient problems.

Again, they aren’t talking about turning away gay patients, they just want to “fix” them.  Which is just as bad, of course, but it is different.  In this case it’s an injection of the concept of free speech where it’s irrelevant.  You can think and even say you think homosexuality is wrong, but when you’re treating a patient, you do not have that right.

Comment #28: oldfeminist  on  07/29  at  01:57 PM

This shit pisses me off so much!

The counselor is NOT the victim here.  The PATIENT is the victim here. 

Just as when a woman wants to fill a prescription—the pharmacist is NOT the victim.

There’s absolutely no right to a job where you refuse to do the job.  If you don’t want to fill prescriptions, don’t become a pharmacist.  If you don’t want to listen to people’s problems and advise them ethically, don’t become a counselor.

You can protest without the degree.  You can blog/interview/speak out against the people you hate all you want without any degree.

but if you want to do a job, you need to DO THE FUCKING JOB.  And you cannot discriminate against protected classes, regardless of what your particular Sky Fairy tells you.  And THAT’S NOT MAKING YOU A VICTIM.

It’s simply preventing you from victimizing innocent others.

Comment #29: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/29  at  02:02 PM

Yeah, exactly right - what Caren said.

Comment #30: helen w. h.  on  07/29  at  02:06 PM

As an EMU alum I have to point out something that’s makes it even more infuriating. If she wanted to limit herself to counseling in situations that didn’t conflict with her beliefs there’s a school about 45 minutes down the road with a degree program in “Christian counseling”, whatever that is.

Comment #31: mtbv1  on  07/29  at  02:10 PM

It annoys me that the terms are expressed as “values” for non-bigot-Christians and “religious belief” for the oh-so-special crowd. For most people, there isn’t much difference between their values and their religious beliefs. But framing the debate in those terms tilts the “moral” high ground to the “persecuted” Christians away from those people who just, you know, have different values, which doesn’t seem as big a deal.

But truth is, every one of my dirty-hippie-librul values has every bit as much theological support as gay-people-are-scary values. Bigot values are not special just because their pastor preaches it from the pulpit. Plenty of pastors preach my values, too. The fact that the bigot-Christians don’t consider the other churches real Christian just highlights how any discussion of values is ultimately a theological battle, and the reason that government should stay as neutral as possible on the whole damned thing.

If someone is vegetarian because of their religious beliefs, could they refuse to counsel meat-eaters. Or hunters? If someone believes in giving 10 percent of their income to charity, could they refuse to counsel greedy capitalists? Would miss I’m-too-special-for-rules support their “religious freedom?”

Comment #32: Phoebe Fay  on  07/29  at  02:11 PM

I just don’t get what it is with a particular brand of conservative Christian that insists and demands that their right to never deal with anything that disagrees with their beliefs—forget about anything that *challenges* their beliefs—always trumps other people’s right to both their own beliefs and professional service.

I think it’s part of the homeschooling/Regent University/Bob Jones U/etc. alternate education system.  They are homeschooled to protect them from learning about other people or any differing beliefs.  When they’re adults, they sincerely have no clue how to deal with opposing beliefs b/c they’ve never had to interact with someone who didn’t agree with them.

Since everyone they know believes the same, they think they are a majority, and it’s just some weirdos out there.  Weirdos shouldn’t be tolerated, and they certainly shouldn’t be protected.

When any consequence of their craziness happens, they think their rights have been violated b/c they are simply unaware that those ‘weirdos’ also have rights and that their views are not super special ultra protected.

It’s incredibly important to remove or to prevent accreditation for these types of institutions.

If you can’t do the job, you don’t have a right to it.  You don’t get to violate random, innocent people’s lives with your bigotry.

Comment #33: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  07/29  at  02:14 PM

Perhaps all professional organizations need to add a clause to their codes of ethics that says, “If you find any aspect of the above mentioned code so distasteful to you that it may interfere with your ability to do your job properly, please stop reading and select another profession.”

It may be intolerant to say, but we need to adopt a zero tolerance policy toward “conscience clauses” when the job duties are clearly and carefully spelled out in advance. No one is being forced at gunpoint to take any job so the fundies cannot complain about their “freedom” when they’re free to walk out the door, get in their car and never return to any job they don’t like. In this economy, they will be replaced within a matter of minutes.

Comment #34: DC Fem  on  07/29  at  02:22 PM

I mean, in a way I feel kinda sorry for her in the same way that I’d feel sorry for a med student that just found out he has to handle urine samples.  That initial reaction of “I have to pick up pee he put in a cup?!”, from a naive and inexperienced college student isn’t unheard of.  I can sympathize.

What is impermissible is the stubborn assumption that you’re to good to do the part of the job you don’t like.  Gay people are icky?  You’re going to have to get over it.  Doctors deal with blood and pus and excrement all the time.  You get to deal with the angry, the depressed, and the confused.

Jewish doctors don’t get away refusing to see menopausal women.  Christian physicians can’t kick a patient out because they got injured working on the sabboth.  There is no EMR that can reject victims of shellfish food poisoning.  :-p

Now, if they took her initial objection and tossed her out on her ear, I can see a case against the school for overreaction.  But if she stubbornly refused after having her objection overruled…

Maybe this would be easier if we just ruled homosexuality a religion.  Apparently, religious groups get all sorts of “special rights” that secular folks could be taking advantage of.

Comment #35: Zifnab25  on  07/29  at  02:24 PM

Maybe this would be easier if we just ruled homosexuality a religion.  Apparently, religious groups get all sorts of “special rights” that secular folks could be taking advantage of.

Isn’t that item #17 on the Homosexual Agenda? Right after “Destroy sanctity of marriage” and right before “redesign military uniforms and make them fabulous”?

Comment #36: Phoebe Fay  on  07/29  at  02:35 PM

I’m noticing more and more that the privileged classes in a society seem incapable of telling the difference between thinking something and acting on it.

Be it Christians incapable of keeping their dislike of homosexuality to themselves, or men being incapable of not expressing their lust to the women who have “provoked” it, or cis people asking really personal questions of random transpeople they meet because they’re just sooooo curious…. it seems the concept of keeping one’s thoughts to oneself is completely foreign to them, while the non-privileged learn the lesson to STFU really early in life.

Comment #37: jadehawk  on  07/29  at  02:43 PM

And as others have pointed out, you really have to be of the mindset that everyone is like you and a huge majority of the country agrees with you to pursue legal action in these cases. A non-fundie headed into the job market would make damn certain that a google search would not turn up this level of crazy which will almost certainly land the resumes of these two “Christians” in the recycle bin.

Comment #38: DC Fem  on  07/29  at  02:45 PM

I’ll never understand this mindset, especially since the same christians will complain at the drop of a hat about being persecuted if you’re not doing everything possible to bow to their personal superstitions.

I’m a librarian, and although people tend to think of us as pony-tailed hippies in birkenstocks and Hawaiian shirts (or for my generation, mohawked, doc martens clad hipsters in cardigans), there’s actually a pretty wide range of social and political beliefs to be found. Thankfully the vast majority of us prize freedom of and access to information above all else, although I have occasionally heard of a few conservative librarians who refused to stock (or at least restrict access to) material they found objectionable. I never hear about the opposite happening, though. I serve a very conservative area and regularly purchase material that makes my eyes roll back so hard I could look down my own throat at the bile welling up in my stomach. But that’s what my community is looking for and requesting, so that’s what I get for them. Sure, I still purchase books about the history of the struggle for gay rights, or feminist examinations of culture or politics, because part of your duty as a librarian is to represent and serve as a repository for all aspects of culture and history—but I know those books are never going to circulate as well as latest screed from O’Reilley, Beck, Coulter, or Limbaugh, and I’d be wasting my communities’ resources if I tried to force feed them books that reflected my own particular views.

And yet these people will still complain about the weirdest stuff. I once had along conversation with a woman who was convinced that the few titles we get for a small sci-fi/fantasy contingent were actually part of a plot (perpetrated by me, naturally) to flood the library with demonic Dungeons and Dragons imagery and propaganda. Who the fuck still worries about Dungeons and Dragons? It was her opinion that if we absolutely must buy those books, that we should put them on a shelf hidden away in a corner somewhere and clearly mark them with a sign explaining that only broken and abnormal people read them.

Comment #39: Egnu Cledge  on  07/29  at  03:02 PM

They are homeschooled to protect them from learning about other people or any differing beliefs.  When they’re adults, they sincerely have no clue how to deal with opposing beliefs b/c they’ve never had to interact with someone who didn’t agree with them.

This is indeed a real problem, but it must go deeper than that because I’ve encountered it from people of all ages all over the country for decades. I think it’s just part of privilege. Everywhere I’ve ever worked—if I was in any location that allowed or encouraged customer interaction—nearly every person who came up to talk to me assumed I shared their exact beliefs and values. And they were always conservative christian beliefs and values. Feel like ranting at some guy at an information desk about how global warming is a hoax and Obama is a secret Muslim? Well come on down to my library! Think there must be some accidental oversight that prevented us from buying a self-published book written by a former football star about how the gays are poisoning our water supply? Tell me all about it while I try to ILL it from another state library.

Comment #40: Egnu Cledge  on  07/29  at  03:14 PM

People who are bigots have no place being therapists period.

Comment #41: kathygnome  on  07/29  at  03:24 PM

I really can’t express how inherent this is to the conservative worldview—because they believe that reality is consensually determined, rather than independent of human experience, they genuinely believe that they can change the nature of human sexuality by counseling denial hard enough.

Comment #42: Punditus Maximus  on  07/29  at  03:40 PM

I saw that in passing on the way into work.  How does CNN frame it? 

Student: University wants her to change ‘biblical views’ on gays

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
Student is suing Augusta State University, saying her right to free speech was violated
She said counseling department asked her to change her beliefs about homosexuality
Jennifer Keeton was required to complete a “remediation” program
Counseling expert, rights advocate: School obligated to prevent imposition of values

Buried way at the bottom…
Oh, wait!  CNN did nothing to explain the American Counseling Association’s position, just keeps throwing quotes from David French, a senior counsel with the Alliance Defense Fund in.  As CNN continues to fallow Faux New into the cesspit, is it any wonder no one watches them anymore?

When given a choice between a Republican and someone who votes like a Republican, the Republicans will choose a Republican every time.

Comment #43: cynickal  on  07/29  at  03:45 PM

I will say that as an educator, I’m happy to see a legal precedent that says a school may uphold requirements for a course or program in the face of religious objections.  It’s something we’re running into more and more, students who protest even having been made aware that people who think differently than they do exist.

Comment #44: Lucy Gillam  on  07/29  at  03:54 PM

At my job, customers ask for cigarettes all the time and I get it for them even though I’m morally opposed to smoking.  Many of my coworkers are vegitarians, but they handle meat products all the time.  To me it just seems like conservative Christians are the only ones complaining about this shit, whether it’s this or handling birth control.

I find it ironic that Julea is black, would she want someone to deny her services based on her skin color?

Comment #45: Albert Cirrus  on  07/29  at  03:57 PM

It was her opinion that if we absolutely must buy those books, that we should put them on a shelf hidden away in a corner somewhere and clearly mark them with a sign explaining that only broken and abnormal people read them.

When it comes to extreme graphic sensationalistic sexual and nasty violence, the Bible has it all over anything Dungeons and Dragons can conjure ...

Comment #46: Ms Kate  on  07/29  at  04:01 PM

we should put them on a shelf hidden away in a corner somewhere and clearly mark them with a sign explaining that only broken and abnormal people read them.

This section was marked “sci-fi/fantasy” right? How much clearer could you make it? ;p

(Though I gotta say, in the intersection of religion and science fiction, L. Ron Hubbard’s “Mission Earth” series was a broken and abnormal bunch of books. Which I read twice through as a child. That’s where I learned what stuff like opium and bestiality were! :D)

Comment #47: Bagelsan  on  07/29  at  04:17 PM

Who the fuck still worries about Dungeons and Dragons? It was her opinion that if we absolutely must buy those books, that we should put them on a shelf hidden away in a corner somewhere and clearly mark them with a sign explaining that only broken and abnormal people read them.

Comment #39: Egnu Cledge

Have you tried playing 4th Edition?
WoW totally broke it.  wink

It’s a really slick system, but it’s now missing the reams of flavor text that drew me in as a proto-geek.

Comment #48: cynickal  on  07/29  at  04:31 PM

we should put them on a shelf hidden away in a corner somewhere and clearly mark them with a sign explaining that only broken and abnormal people read them.

Part of the problem is that most fundamentalist Christianzs believe in witchcraft and demons (they’re right there in the Bible!), so they view these books with much the same alarm that we more mainstream types would view a manual giving directions for making home-made nukes.

Comment #49: rea  on  07/29  at  04:45 PM

Have you tried playing 4th Edition?
WoW totally broke it.

Since when does ‘broke’ mean ‘made it better’?

Comment #50: BlackBloc  on  07/29  at  04:47 PM

cynickal—I’m set in my 2nd ed ways.

Comment #51: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/29  at  04:53 PM

I think we should beware of using “Christian” as a term to describe bigots like this. There are tens of millions of christians (lutherans, episcopalians, UCC, etc) who don’t have any doctrinal problems with GLBT folks or their relationships. Bigots like Ward and Keeton are committing blashpemy when they imply that those tens of millions of people aren’t christians.

Comment #52: paul  on  07/29  at  04:55 PM

Mighty Ponygirl—then play 2nd ed!  smile

Comment #53: Punditus Maximus  on  07/29  at  05:12 PM

D&D;Nerd Holy War!

Comment #54: BlackBloc  on  07/29  at  05:13 PM

I think we should beware of using “Christian” as a term to describe bigots like this.

Christianity is incapable of accommodating bigotry?

Comment #55: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/29  at  05:14 PM

Well, that judge not lest you be judged, he who is without sin stuff, um, actually yes; Christianity, meaning those who follow that Jesus guy, is incapable of accomodating bigotry.  If you mean the dogmatic theocrats, it would depend on which sub-group.
The church I belonged to back in ID 15+ years ago now recent got a new pastor.  She is an open lesbian.  My spouse’s aunt (at 92) is absolutely thrilled with her (and more than a little bit amused by the freakout of some of her cohorts).

Comment #56: helen w. h.  on  07/29  at  05:26 PM

I would say we’re playing “no true christian” with all this. It is, and always has been, capable of accommodating monstrous brutality and bigotry.

Comment #57: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/29  at  05:30 PM

Oh man, are we on our way to “conscience clauses” for counselors, too (as many states currently have for pharmacists)?!?

Yes, counselors, bus drivers, doctors, professors, universities, blood banks, lawyers, hospitals, I could go on and on. These cases are not isolated incidents. You’ll notice that the Alliance Defense Fund defends many of these conscience-clause (pro-discimination) cases. It is a well-funded coordinated attack on the freedom of Americans who don’t share their religious views. Here are a couple of links to stories to show it’s not just about conscience-clause for pharmacists (or counselors):

Bus Driver Sues After Refusing to Take Woman to Planned Parenthood

Calif. court to hear lesbian insemination case

Professor fired over comments on homosexuality gets $100,000

Christian doctors’ group protests rolling back ‘conscience’ rule

Blood Donation Ban for Gay and Bisexual Men Under Review

ACLU Tells Fresno City College That Anti-Gay Preaching By Health Professor Doesn’t Fly

Delay For State Lawyers Debating Anti-bias Language

Fresno Hospital Agrees To Training And Policy Changes In Response To Mistreatment Of Lesbian Couple

Augusta State U Student SUES, Claims School Penalized Her For Anti-Gay Views

ACLU Challenges Gay Adoption Ban in Arkansas

Tennessee Court Overturns Ruling That Barred Partner Of Over 10 Years From Overnight Visits

Comment #58: Grasshopper  on  07/29  at  05:43 PM

Sure, she’s not Christian, she’s a Xykwivin, or whatever 95% of people who say they’re Christian are.  Next topic?

Comment #59: Punditus Maximus  on  07/29  at  05:44 PM

It’s not my job to make sure she’s completely comfortable with everything I say at all times.

Zactly.  The whole time I was reading the post I was thinking, “Um, does she think the client is there to make HER feel good?”

Comment #60: DonnaDiva  on  07/29  at  05:47 PM

I don’t think we should beware using the term “Christian” to describe bigots like these.  They self-describe as Christians, share many, though not all, theological beliefs with other self-described Christians, can trace the historical development of their particular denomination to earlier groups that themselves are self-described Christian.  And like many Christian groups, they deny that other groups that other Christians regard as Christian aren’t “really” Christian under the “true” interpretation of Christianity.  It is only blasphemy according to the rules of some other sect.  And however heterodox Christian denominations may be on LGBT issues, accepting LGBT folk as fully equal, non-sinning members of the community in the US is unusual enough for it to make the front page of the NYTimes when it happens (as it did with Evangelical Lutherans recently).

Maybe it would be worthwhile to use a particular name to designate “Christians who adhere to bigoted doctrines” and “Christians who don’t” but that doesn’t work for four reasons.  First, “Christianist” and “Christofascist” were already tried and didn’t catch on; referring to specific denominations might be more plausible, but often these groups consider their denomination to simply be “Christian”. Second, “Christians who adhere to bigoted doctrines” are actually the overwhelming majority of Christians if you count membership in denominations that have doctrinal problems with LGBT folks.  The Catholic Church alone has over a billion members, and even if some particular Catholic is LGBT positive, marches in parades, etc., that Catholic still has a doctrinal problem.  Third, I have met more Christians who want me to know that they aren’t like the bad Christians with regard to LGBT issues, but who really weren’t on board with LGBT issues other than not waving signs around at funerals.  If that’s representative, there will be a lot of Christians who would fall into our new category but who would themselves object to the accuracy of that categorization.  Fourth,  Christians, unlike Muslims, are not a despised and maligned minority in the United States, and so while avoiding terms like “Islamic terrorists” is helpful to stave off anti-Muslim bigotry, Christians are just not in the same situation.  “Being a Christian” of any sort is a socially advantageous mark in a way that “being a member of the LGBT community” is not.

I know that members of the Christian denominations who don’t sign on to this bullshit feel unfairly maligned in these discussions, but if it ain’t about you, it ain’t about you.  Pointing out that not all Christians believe this stuff is usually about as helpful as pointing out that not all men are misogynists.  I say usually because there is a helpful way to use this difference:  pointing out to other Christians that there are Christian options that don’t include bigotry, such that Being a Christian only includes being a member of a bigoted organization to the extent they don’t place a premium on LGBT equality.

Comment #61: Thom  on  07/29  at  05:48 PM

D&D;Nerd Holy War!

I refuse to librarianate to D&D;Nerds.  GURPS forever (a 50 point advantage, BTW)!

Comment #62: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/29  at  05:54 PM

I know that christianity is capable of harboring incredible bigotry and murderous nastiness (one of my favorite quotes as a kid was “Are there more christians like you in heaven?”). What has me annoyed is that these bigots are implicitly saying that everyone who isn’t a bigot isn’t a christian, and by taking their identification at face value, we’re to some extent participating in their framing. It’s like taking at face value the labels used by the pro-dead-women people who picket clinics.

Comment #63: paul  on  07/29  at  06:02 PM

“a school about 45 minutes down the road with a degree program in “Christian counseling”, whatever that is.”

Well, one could wish that it includes people who are unwilling to counsel Christians if it means being required to support them in bigoted beliefs.

Comment #64: Lymis  on  07/29  at  06:11 PM

@Thom, the other reason why referring to denominations doesn’t work is that some are very decentralized. For example, the UCC as a whole has a very progressive, liberal attitude—but it includes and welcomes very conservative congregations, and it doesn’t tell them what to believe.

Comment #65: catfood  on  07/29  at  06:11 PM

I mean, in a way I feel kinda sorry for her in the same way that I’d feel sorry for a med student that just found out he has to handle urine samples.  That initial reaction of “I have to pick up pee he put in a cup?!”, from a naive and inexperienced college student isn’t unheard of.  I can sympathize.

It’s a problem for vet schools - most vet students go into it because they love animals. There’s always a few who realise too late that their training involves cutting them up. They learn to cope, or they leave. They don’t get to be vets who refuse to learn how to do their job.

Comment #66: Nineveh  on  07/29  at  06:13 PM

As for isolating the D&D;books because some Christians take demons and devils seriously, as soon as there is documentation showing that people are actually successfully using the directions in the books to call up demons, design Vorpal Blades, or unleashing hordes of rampaging orcs, I’m all for it.

Meanwhile, though I don’t suppose we can get the to agree to isolate the Book that has ACTUALLY been used to justify things like the Crusades and Inquisition.

Comment #67: Lymis  on  07/29  at  06:14 PM

Comment #10: MikeEss on 07/29 at 10:22 AM

As long as the pipes belong to someone gay, the plumber should have every right to refuse to do their job, just like if the person with clogged pipes is a Negro, or a Mexican, or a fat chick, or voted Democrat.  This is how we preserve Freedom! and Liberty! in America…

And the market will make sure that it never happens, because when it happens the market will correct it.  And if the market doesn’t correct it, well, how dare you contradict the market’s Panglossian wisdom?

Comment #68: sacundim  on  07/29  at  06:16 PM

It’s like taking at face value the labels used by the pro-dead-women people who picket clinics.

No, it’s nothing like that at all.  We’re taking at face value the label they apply to themselves.  There’s no problem with that self-description being misleading because objectionable doctrines about LGBT folk are widespread among Christian denominations.  You don’t think they’re real Christians.  Fine; they don’t think other groups are real Christians.  Nevertheless, all these groups have a family resemblance and self-describe as Christians.  That’s good enough for me.

I don’t think anyone here is going the additional step and saying that those Christians who belong to denominations with objectionable doctrines are also correct when they say that groups with different doctrines about LGBT folk are not “really” Christians.  If anything, deciding who is really Christian is specifically what we avoid when we take their self-description at face value.

Comment #69: Thom  on  07/29  at  06:22 PM

Again, though, I don’t think the distinction you’re talking about is useless, paul.  I just think its value is to showing Christians who belong to these denominations that their objectionable doctrines are by no means an unfortunate, inescapable fact about Christianity and that they could in fact belong to more LGBT friendly denominations if they decided that was actually important to them.  In conversations with folks who are already on board with that, though, it doesn’t seem to do much good.

Comment #70: Thom  on  07/29  at  06:28 PM

Wow I feel weird being the only person disagreeing. I am very persuadable on my disagreement though.

If she has a problem with homosexuality then wouldn’t she make a terrible counsellor for gay clients? Wouldn’t she actually be doing said clients a disservice by agreeing to treat them? This assumption might be wrong in which case my whole argument falls down.

You can say that someone who is bigoted and hateful shouldn’t be training as a counsellor, and that works in this particular case. I have no problem with anti-gay bigots not being counsellors. But given that some enter the programme anyway, isn’t it better if they refuse to treat gay clients than that they treat them and do a bad job? Doesn’t a case like this encourage them to do the latter?

I don’t think the same arguments apply to counsellors as apply to pharmacists and Plan B. The quality of someone’s birth control pill isn’t affected by the moral judgements of the pharmacist who dispensed it. (Also there are fewer barriers to entry for counsellors than for pharmacists so the market can solve the problem of counsellors who discriminate, much more easily than with pharmacists.)

Comment #71: daisyparker  on  07/29  at  06:36 PM

I refuse to librarianate to D&D;Nerds.  GURPS forever (a 50 point advantage, BTW)!

Comment #62: Phoenician in a time of Romans

Pffft!  Talk about byzantine rules.  Might as well play RIFTS.

Comment #72: cynickal  on  07/29  at  06:45 PM

of they could take more of a stand on changing the policies within their church. It something you stumble across with Catholics who can be very progressive in certain areas but turn a blind eye to others. Fighting for X doesn’t spare you from criticism for ignoring Y.

Comment #73: scrumby  on  07/29  at  07:08 PM

4th Edition is a fun tactical combat game whose mechanics don’t support roleplaying—but on the other hand, you can do that stuff regardless of what’s on your character sheet.  And the fights are way easier to run than in 3.0 and 3.5.

Pathfinder is more fun to read than 4th.

GURPS is great but Savage Worlds is more streamlined and fun to play.

Barbarians of Lemuria is by far the most old school sword & sorcery fun I’ve had years.

And Call of Cthulhu wins because . . . well . . . IA! IA!

Comment #74: Dr. Locrian  on  07/29  at  07:11 PM

GURPS is way cooler than RIFTS.  Damn, now I have to go digging around my book shelf to find some of my old GURPS stuff and reminisce.  That’ll waste an hour or two.

Comment #75: libdevil  on  07/29  at  07:16 PM

ThresherK Spousal Unit is a real counselor (licenced, degreed social worker) who had worked previously for a devout organization and now works for a real-world organization. And is still getting used to being able to say “abortion” out loud at work.

My upbringing beliefs don’t support Ohm’s Law. Now, let me get to work on your house wiring.

Comment #76: ThresherK  on  07/29  at  07:53 PM

“I have no problem with anti-gay bigots not being counsellors. But given that some enter the programme anyway, isn’t it better if they refuse to treat gay clients than that they treat them and do a bad job? Doesn’t a case like this encourage them to do the latter?”

Did she figure out that she couldn’t “affirm” their “lifestyle” 2-hours before the appointment?  If she hadn’t bothered to review the client’s file until then and discovered (to her horror!) that the client was gay, why can’t she be adult enough to put aside her personal issues and help some one who needs help?

This brings up a whole bunch of questions.  Do Jewish counselors refuse Christian clients?  Do Hindu counselors refuse non-vegetarian clients?  Do Republican counselors refuse Democratic clients?

And is this “counseling” or “therapy”?  How deep are they getting into somebody’s private life to provide whatever “counseling” they need?...

Comment #77: MikeEss  on  07/29  at  08:15 PM

I think we should beware of using “Christian” as a term to describe bigots like this.
Comment 52—paul

That’s certainly the most efficient way for Christians to purge the bigots from your ranks. Not the most effective, however.

They may not be all Christians, they may not be representative of Christians, but they are Christians; it does you no credit to claim that Christians are incapable of wrongdoing by definition.

Yes, counselors, bus drivers, doctors, professors, universities, blood banks, lawyers, hospitals, I could go on and on.
Comment 58—Grasshopper

“Weird news” sections have occasionally featured letter carriers who refused to carry Playboy and suchlike.

If she has a problem with homosexuality then wouldn’t she make a terrible counsellor for gay clients? Wouldn’t she actually be doing said clients a disservice by agreeing to treat them? This assumption might be wrong in which case my whole argument falls down.
Comment 71—daisyparker

I don’t find any flaw in the assumption as it stands, but then she can do “Christian counseling” or go into the clergy (or the clergy ladies’ auxilliary if that’s what there is) and mention the bigotry up front. Then she won’t have any gay clients. Thing is, she doesn’t just want to not have to tell them it’s okay to be gay, I suspect she actively wants gay clients so she can “fix” them.

Comment #78: Hershele Ostropoler  on  07/29  at  08:34 PM

GURPS is way cooler than RIFTS.  Damn, now I have to go digging around my book shelf to find some of my old GURPS stuff and reminisce.

You tell him, girl. Stand strong and -

[rolls against reaction table]

- represent!!

Comment #79: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/29  at  09:13 PM

My favorite bit of utter bullshit is the idea that OTHER people having gay marriage is violating a third party’s religious beliefs. Surely a Jewish marriage is against a Catholic’s religious beliefs and vice versa.

On a personal level, in the ‘first they came for the socialists..’ category I couldn’t help but notice how the Texas GOP platform supports “the definition of marriage as a God–ordained, legal and moral commitment only between a natural man and a natural woman, which is the foundational unit of a healthy society, and we oppose the assault on marriage by judicial activists.”

Well, there goes my marriage of 16 years, performed by a justice of the peace…no mention of god, certainly not ‘god-ordained.’

The Texas GOP does not recognize that as an actual marriage.

Ted Haggard’s marriage though, is completely legitimate. (That is, after he serves his prison time for sodomy.)

Comment #80: Fat Steve  on  07/29  at  09:28 PM

As a practicing therapist, I find this case fascinating. When I was in school, we were basically told that it was only human to have a problem with some clients - for a whole range of reasons—from feeling sexually attracted to them to feeling uncomfortable with criminal behaviors. Of course, teh gay was a big one for a lot of the students. Our professor told us under no uncertain terms that this was why it was important to understand ourselves and our own biases. This DID NOT excuse us from counseling those people. But we were made to understand that it was our job to take responsibility for our own stuff. IF and ONLY IF it began to leak into the therapy and affect the client would referral be appropriate. This would be after consultation with several superiors and is considered only if the benefits to the client would be greater than the potential trauma. As many have already said “It’s not about the counselor. It’s about the client.” Sheesh.

Comment #81: Chryslin  on  07/29  at  09:43 PM

Speaking as a professional therapist, I can affirm that this person deserved to be kicked out of her program—not just because she doesn’t like gay people, but because she fundamentally misunderstands the nature of psychotherapy.  With certain narrow exceptions (i.e., preventing harm to self or others, reporting child abuse, etc.) psychotherapy is not about giving advice, especially about important life decisions.  The major purpose of psychotherapy (as I learned it) is to help people be able to make their own decisions by helping them to understand the unconscious processes that influence their thinking—to make the unconscious conscious.  Now, my training was primarily psychodynamic in nature.  Cognitive-Behavior therapists might focus on symptoms reduction instead, but even then the primary technique is to help the client to understand and change patterns of thinking and behaving that contribute to their symptoms, as defined by the client.  Giving direct advice on any major life issue is generally a very, very bad idea—again, unless it’s matter of safety—and is likely to get you sued or worse. 

I’ve treated a few religious wingnuts in my time, and I’ve had to be scrupulous about not challenging their religious and political beliefs—no matter how stupid these beliefs may be.  It’s not my job to impose my beliefs on others, and my clients don’t come to me for religious guidance or political debate.  It’s my job to help my clients achieve the highest level of functioning possible.  Anything else would be unethical, and the fact that this person got so far in her program without learning this principle is just further proof that she doesn’t belong in the profession.

Comment #82: Captain Bathrobe  on  07/29  at  09:49 PM

Also, what Chryslin @ 82 said.

Comment #83: Captain Bathrobe  on  07/29  at  09:50 PM

“If she has a problem with homosexuality then wouldn’t she make a terrible counsellor for gay clients? Wouldn’t she actually be doing said clients a disservice by agreeing to treat them?”

The thing about this is that there are standards for declining or referring clients with whom you feel you cannot, for whatever reason, establish a therapeutic relationship.  If you’re a Vietnam vet who still has issues with PTSD, it is not out of the ballpark to be upfront about the fact that you still cannot deal with being around people of Vietnamese extraction without difficulty, and consequently would make an astonishingly bad counselor match for Vietnamese patients.  But it’s on you to make that limitation clear from the get-go and also to do your damnedest to get that patient to a more suitable counselor.  You don’t get to say “Well, fuck that dude.  He’s Vietnamese.” two hours before a session and expect everyone to be cool with that because you have your own issues and also all right-thinking people agree that Vietnamese people will totally frag your ass and then snipe your best friend.

And, of course, counselors aren’t generally dealing with people at their saintly best.  People go to them because they have problems that they need help sorting out.  They need someone that they can go to in confidence and try to get to the bottom of their self-destructive behavior patterns, fucked-up urges, lingering unhappinesses, etc.  It can get pretty ugly.  If you can’t spend an hour or two with a gay man trying to help him get his shit straightened out without getting all judgy and Bad Counselor McGee on his ass just because he’s gay, how the fuck are you going to be able to deal with clients who are even less angelic?  Which is, you know, a fucking given, because nobody jumps through the hoops and pays the money counseling takes because they’ve been in a snit over a parking ticket for the last day and a half.

Comment #84: preying mantis  on  07/29  at  10:14 PM

And yet if I try to get a job as a preacher and don’t want to preach from the particular book they like, I bet they can me so fast…  How is that fair?

Comment #85: QrazyQat  on  07/29  at  10:36 PM

Oh, and if she has a problem with homosexuality and can’t keep it out of the consulting room, gay clients aren’t the only ones she’s going to be bad for. She’s going to be bad for any straight clients who have gay family members or friends whose existence impinges on the issues they bring in. She’s going to be bad for straight clients whose beliefs about gay people impinge on the issues they bring in. She’s going to be bad for straight clients whose issues require an understanding of heterocentrism and/or heteronormativity.

Maybe she would be ok for clients who have been living on mars.

Comment #86: paul  on  07/29  at  11:05 PM

*Sigh* Another manifestation of overentitled students who believe instructors and even accreditation associations must cater to their every whim because they were merely admitted into a degree program.  rolleyes

With such stories of such types of students becoming more commonplace from Professor/TA and student anecdotes, I wonder how many of them dream of having the power to summarily expel such students/classmates and to blacklist them from pursuing further university education unless they have had a dramatic attitude adjustment regarding their obligations as students and members of an educational community.

Comment #87: exholt  on  07/29  at  11:11 PM

It’s strange for me, living in Okinawa. The Americans I meet who are not students are primarily soldiers, and mostly pretty hard-core Christians. One guy I met at the aquarium had named his younger son Boaz. They were thanking G-d for meeting us that day, and it was just a brief chat/mutual admiration of kids (he and his wife had really cute kids).

I grew up in a church, I still attend it even though I’m an atheist; these people are my community. The way in which these soldiers I’m meeting now, and this woman in the story, treat their faith is completely alien to me. And this is somebody who has been around Christians his whole life. Being a Christian isn’t an excuse to not help people. Geh.

And as for D&D;, I gotta say that 4th edition has more pages devoted to “how to roleplay” than any other edition previously, and has added a decent mechanical framework for roleplaying encounters. Two sessions back, there was no combat in the evening, though there was conflict… two skill challenges (one to fake a dragon attack, another to negotiate with the actual dragon). Guess I’m doin’ it wrong? I’m all for the straight-up dungeon crawls, but everybody had a ton of fun in the RP/skill challenge section too. Unfortunately for me, I think they liked it more than the fighting, which means I have to plan more of them. Work, work, work.

Comment #88: Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato  on  07/29  at  11:52 PM

I was hoping to have something INT to say about the breakdown of the social/legal contract in the reactionary right, but I failed my Will Check in the D&D;side-discussion.

Comment #89: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/29  at  11:53 PM

Part of the problem is that most fundamentalist Christianzs believe in witchcraft and demons (they’re right there in the Bible!), so they view these books with much the same alarm that we more mainstream types would view a manual giving directions for making home-made nukes.

Yes, but if the directions for making homemade nuclear weapons included methods such as squeezing as many bananas as possible in a blender and then running the blender at high power in order cause the radioactive potassium isotopes which occur naturally in bananas to fuse and explode, most people would regard the manual as somewhat lacking in being able to build a nuke following its directions.

Which is about the equivalent that role playing games have to do with “real” (snerk) demonology or witchcraft[1].


1.  Speaking of which, I’d be willing to invoke the demon of anyone’s choosing using the proper methodology as detailed in The Lesser Key of Solomon and I’m fairly confident in betting nothing will happen.

Comment #90: KeithM  on  07/30  at  01:15 AM

The 4th Edition hate is about the strictness of the class system.  D&D;4th Ed. has a list of characters you are allowed to play, and that feels like a video game.

That said, that list is not only pretty decent, it includes all the characters 90% of people want to play.  If you want to play an uplifted octopus on a space station, GURPS is there for you.  It’s just that almost no one wants to do that, because playing magically protected heroes on a dungeon crawl appears to be such a fundamentally resonant concept to modern Americans that it blows out nearly everything else.

Comment #91: Punditus Maximus  on  07/30  at  01:24 AM

The ultimate test for Christians is Would Jesus recognize that you were trying to follow Him? Jesus left enough clues about what it would take—example: Sermon on the Mount—that merely calling yourself one ain’t gonna cut it. Anybody for example, not willing to give up his worldly goods is no Christian.

Comment #92: Hector B.  on  07/30  at  02:11 AM

but if you want to do a job, you need to DO THE FUCKING JOB.  And you cannot discriminate against protected classes, regardless of what your particular Sky Fairy tells you.  And THAT’S NOT MAKING YOU A VICTIM.

It’s simply preventing you from victimizing innocent others.
Comment #29: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes on 07/29 at 01:02 PM

but, but , but you mean as a firefighter I can’t refuse to put out fires at the homes of smokers?
as a PE teacher I can’t call teh overweight kid sfat slobs and assign them permanently to left field?
As an accountant I can’t refuse any client who has ever, ever, ever filed bankruptsy?
as social worker I can’t refuse food stamps to the single mom of five and tell her to keep her legs together next time? 
As a justice of the peace I can’t refuse to marry miscegenated couples?

Man you people are real party poopers and rights trompers

(snark, but not as good as Mike Ess - hats off to you, man)

Comment #93: phylosopher  on  07/30  at  02:24 AM

Storyteller all the way. You have to love any system that will let the GM bullshit their way out of being confronted with an odd mix of powers and actions.

Or, for the really hardcore, Fudge. 4d3 to run the most wide-open system that can still be called a system.

Besides, didn’t you hear? When 4e came out, you were supposed to burn all your old books and send the ashes back to WotC. It’s a DMCA thing. I had to destroy my PalmPilot with a sledgehammer because it had a copy of the 3.5 SRD on it.

Seriously? Obsessing over system details (especially in D&D;where the older rulesets can be had through used bookstores for not very much money, or in the case of 3 and 3.5 free for the download) is idiotic. If you don’t like it, make a house rule.

Comment #94: BrianX  on  07/30  at  04:42 AM

BrianX, that’s a pretty big part of while I’m stuck in my 2nd Ed ways. I shelled out a TREMENDOUS amount of money as a teenager on the core manuals, the expansion manuals (those glossy brown-covered “complete Ranger guide” etc, and a shit ton of modules, including a bunch of Ravenloft stuff. I’m really not all that excited to do it again when the old system worked just fine.

Comment #95: Mighty Ponygirl  on  07/30  at  09:21 AM

If you can’t spend an hour or two with a gay man trying to help him get his shit ‘’‘straightened out’‘’
Comment 85—preying mantis

... so to speak

Comment #96: Hershele Ostropoler  on  07/30  at  09:41 AM

The 4th Edition hate is about the strictness of the class system.  D&D;4th Ed. has a list of characters you are allowed to play, and that feels like a video game.

Since when?  You still design your own character, choose a name, background, what skills you’re trained in.  Multi-classing is still allowed, and the PG3 has a new hybrid build.  Many feats are non-class-specific, and there are minor actions that are race-specific.  There are limitations, sure, but you’re not choosing from pre-made characters.

Comment #97: Lucy Gillam  on  07/30  at  10:07 AM

Even More Off Topic Comment!

I don’t hate on 4th Edition at all.  It’s a fun game, and yes, you’re free to play it however you want, house rule it, play earlier editions or a different game altogether.  It’s all good!

You don’t need game mechanics to support role playing, you just need to have the creativity, disposition, and opportunity to do it. If you don’t, no game system is going to provide those things for you.

I would never deny this.  It’s not necessary at all, but there’s just something elegant about a game where the character sheet itself is helping you play in a certain narrative style.  Like Cold City for a game of Cold War paranoia, or GUMSHOE for an investigative game.  Or how in Call of Cthulhu, there is a Sanity score.  Yes, you could roleplay your investigator’s slow descent into madness completely freeform, without a stat, but then you wouldn’t get a big kick out of seeing you SAN meter slowly drip to the bottom.  There’s no denying that the main draw of D & D of *any* edition is ‘kick in the door and kick some ass,’ and the mechanics are designed with this goal in mind.  That’s not meant as a putdown, either.

You could certainly play a game in 4th where you spend all day arguing politics in the royal court, but IMO you’d probably have more fun choosing a different system, even though there’s nothing really preventing you from playing that story out in 4th—you wouldn’t be using 90% of your character sheet.

Comment #98: Dr. Locrian  on  07/30  at  10:08 AM

People sure do get het up about the contents of old, arcane and silly books.

And a lot of people are talking about Dungeons and Dragons. (waits for cymbal crash)

OT the OT:
Just went through and watched “Freaks and Geeks” again. I’ve never done any role playing games, but the final episode sure made it look pretty fun.

Comment #99: witless chum  on  07/30  at  11:24 AM

My main beef with 4th Ed. is the skills.  I like that they pared down the number of skills, but I don’t like the way you chose to “train” them—there just isn’t any flexibility once you chose your main skills.  And what if, say, the rogue dies and the monk needs to take over thieving?  That and I hate with a passion the daily powers, and to a lesser extent the encounter powers. Mostly because my dice are traitorous, and I inevitably waste this really cool thing and you can’t get it back.  (Also the reason I hate playing wizards in 3rd Ed.  Pick the wrong spells for the day or run into an unexpected situation?  You’re worthless to the party!)

@witless chum:  role playing games can be a ton of fun, especially if you have the right group of people that mesh well.  I like seeing how a character that I created and wrote the background for develops, how she occasionally twists out of my control and goes in ways I hadn’t originally planned.  I like the random events and jokes that happen when people role play things that aren’t related to combat or the plot.  And there is something wonderfully cathartic about blowing enemies to little bits when you’ve had a rough day.

Comment #100: Karinna A.  on  07/30  at  12:39 PM

Wow…someone was expelled from a counseling program not liking the right RPG? What is the world coming to?

Comment #101: Quijotesca  on  07/30  at  12:49 PM

And what if, say, the rogue dies and the monk needs to take over thieving?

...he joins the Church?

*steals chum’s cymbals*

Comment #102: Bagelsan  on  07/30  at  01:00 PM

“... so to speak “

A poor choice of words on my part, yes.  The point does stand, though.  Counseling people is not an inherently easy profession, and if you can’t bring yourself to help a gay client solely because of zomGAY!!11! without making it super-double-unsecret to the client that you capital-letters disapprove of being gay, how the hell you expect to be able to perform well in any number of other relatively common situations is somewhat beyond me.

Comment #103: preying mantis  on  07/30  at  01:08 PM

Given the comments @ 82,83,84 and 85, I feel that there is some cynical operation being put in place by this student. She reads the file two hours before the appointment and feels she should be able to weasel out right then and there? The very least she should have done is have the first session and then inform the client and her supervisors of her incompatibility. The controversy would have been minimal. I’m thinking the controversy is what she really wanted.

Let’s see which institutions come to her legal rescue. Always follow the money when it comes to bigots acting like this.

Comment #104: LCforevah  on  07/30  at  01:12 PM

She reads the file two hours before the appointment and feels she should be able to weasel out right then and there?

Put that way, she may just be a slacker procrastinator who didn’t do her prep work for the session, and simply grabbed for a handy excuse, hoping to buy more time by getting a different client. Once she started down that path, she can’t backtrack without looking like a lying fool.

Comment #105: Hector B.  on  07/30  at  01:34 PM

Karinna, 101:

House rule.

Punditus, 92:

House rule.

Helen, 56:

House rule.

Comment #106: BrianX  on  07/30  at  01:51 PM

Just taking a cheap shot, PM.

Though only because I know from your comments that you’re an anti-homophobe.

LC, I didn’t get the impression she read the file two hours before, only that she waited until then to make her objection. Because otherwise she’d have been subject to a discussion, and there might have been some resolution that wouldn’t lead to a lawsuit and the chance for a member of a hegemonic majority to scream “PERSECUTION!”

Comment #107: Hershele Ostropoler  on  07/30  at  02:08 PM

Karinna,

Actually, one of the things I like about 4e is that you retrain when you level up.  Twice now I’ve realized that something I picked was fundamentally useless, so I was able to switch out the next time we leveled up.

Comment #108: Lucy Gillam  on  07/30  at  02:45 PM

I definitely agree that 4th Ed. does a lot of “best of both worlds” on computer vs. pen-and-paper RPGs.

Also, the development of the LARP has kind of put the Social RPG into its place.

Comment #109: Punditus Maximus  on  07/30  at  03:23 PM

Thanks for answering, especially those of you who know about this stuff. So what I’m understanding now is that a big part of being trained to be a counsellor is learning to put aside your own personal issues and be non-judgmental, and this person was refusing to practice one of the most basic skills of the profession she trained for and demanding special treatment because her fail was religious in origin.

And pretty much it’s like waah-ing and bringing a court case because you got chucked out of a biology program for being a creationist? I am now confident she’s full of shit; thank you!

Comment #110: daisyparker  on  07/30  at  04:32 PM

@107: Every time you need to use a house rule is a failure of game design.

Comment #111: BlackBloc  on  07/30  at  05:21 PM

@112: Or you need to change a three-person game into one for two people.

Comment #112: Atheist, A Feminist  on  07/30  at  05:39 PM

1.  Speaking of which, I’d be willing to invoke the demon of anyone’s choosing using the proper methodology as detailed in The Lesser Key of Solomon and I’m fairly confident in betting nothing will happen.

GLENDOWER
  I can call spirits from the vasty deep.

HOTSPUR
  Why, so can I, or so can any man;
  But will they come when you do call for them?

If you want to play an uplifted octopus on a space station, GURPS is there for you.  It’s just that almost no one wants to do that,

Hey! Speak for yourself!

(Actually, the idea of a sentient lawnmower with an overblown sense of chivalry does appeal more. Huzzah!)

The ultimate test for Christians is Would Jesus recognize that you were trying to follow Him?

Given this discussion, it would depend on whether Jesus made a contested Streetwise roll or not…

Comment #113: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/30  at  05:39 PM

Any AD&D;1st edition OGs here?  Besides me?

Comment #114: Linnaeus  on  07/30  at  06:11 PM

Mate, not only do I still have some of the 1st ed. rulebooks,  I used to have a copy of Chainmail.

Comment #115: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  07/30  at  06:41 PM

I have been a social worker for many years, and, quite honestly, none of this surprises me. Therapists are humans, just like the rest of us, and we come to the table with biases and prejudices, whether we want to admit it or not. In this case, I actually think that Ms. Ward actually did the right thing by refusing to see the patient. She would not have been an effective source of support for him, what with her own personal views about sexuality.

Her failing, though, was not necessarily the fact that she was prejudiced against the LGBTQ community, which from a reality based perspective I find to be absurd on both a personal and professional level, but rather that she appeared to act contrary to the best interests of the client in a patently unprofessional matter. She could have, in theory, first read the patient’s intake information prior to the appointment, and learned of his orientation. She then could have gone to her field supervisor and said “I do not feel that I can meet his needs”, and referred him to another therapist. Then, in an ideal world, she could have taken this to supervision and parsed out her feelings and motivations for this decision.

Yes, Virginia, there are bad therapists out there, and there are some good ones. A good one will tell you what their limits are in a timely and respectful fashion, and a bad one will keep working with you in order to meet their own agenda.

Comment #116: tfcocs  on  07/31  at  12:19 PM

tfcocs:  “In this case, I actually think that Ms. Ward actually did the right thing by refusing to see the patient. She would not have been an effective source of support for him, what with her own personal views about sexuality. “

From the article linked at the beginning:

Ward describes herself as an “orthodox Christian,” the judge’s ruling said, and was upfront in her courses—both in discussions and papers—about her view that homosexuality is “morally wrong.” She also wrote in papers that it is “standard practice” for counselors to refer clients whose values they disagree with to other counselors (even though that’s not standard practice or consistent with American Counseling Association ethics rules, which specifically require counselors to work in non-judgmental ways with clients whose values differ from their own). While Ward’s suit alleged that she faced “disagreeable” reactions to her views from professors, she also earned excellent grades….The counseling association does permit referrals, but they are supposed to be for the good of the client, not for the comfort of the counselor. Typically, a referral that would be seen as legitimate might involve a counselor referring someone to a colleague with expertise on a particular problem….A counselor can’t be effective, she said, with litmus tests on who may be helped.  Further, she said that the ethics code is designed in part because Eastern Michigan is training counselors who will work in schools, colleges and social service agencies where referrals aren’t possible. So the ability to help anyone, and to do so in a way that “is consistent with client values,” is an important, relevant skill as determined by the profession.

So while it may be appropriate to refer the client out when there’s plenty of other places for the client to go, it isn’t here.  She is not accepting the responsibility she is being trained for—to counsel, appropriately, anyone who needs her help, limited only by her abilities, not her opinions.

Comment #117: oldfeminist  on  08/01  at  01:25 AM

I expect if the facts were identical except that she said she couldn’t affirm the client’s relationship with Christ and belief in God the wingnuts would be on the other side of the argument.  Then again, consistency and principles seem to matter less than tribalism to some.

Comment #118: Randomizer  on  08/01  at  12:29 PM

Given the comments @ 82,83,84 and 85, I feel that there is some cynical operation being put in place by this student. She reads the file two hours before the appointment and feels she should be able to weasel out right then and there? The very least she should have done is have the first session and then inform the client and her supervisors of her incompatibility. The controversy would have been minimal. I’m thinking the controversy is what she really wanted.
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Comment #119: chenchen21621  on  08/02  at  04:24 AM

I am Neo pagan and am more than happy to counsel Conservative Christians. I even am able to discuss the bible with them. You can spiritually counsel someone of any persuasion. As a discharge planner, I referred some to specifically Christian Counseling. I had a Christian supervisor who was just as enthusiastic about gay patients as any other. It is about ethics

Comment #120: PatrickNM  on  08/03  at  12:03 AM

Re Ms. Ward, the EMU student: in the state of Michigan,  counseling is a licensed health profession.  A med student who violated medical ethics would be un-license-worthy and quite properly thrown out of med school.  Ms. Ward was in an analogous position in a professional program in a Michigan public university.

Re pharmacists and other licensed professionals (including cab drivers): government licensing puts them in an oligopoly that exists for the public good, with entry requirements enforced by Men in Blue (cf. the situation faced by your friendly local stranger who sells OxyContin).  Part of the cost of the license is a raincheck on certain constitutional rights that might be unalienable in other contexts.

The discriminatory effect that these simple considerations have on the truly religious among us, of course, is scandalous and intolerable.

Comment #121: Corvus_illustris  on  08/04  at  02:10 PM
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