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Next entry: Good news Previous entry: Bathed in the poo of Christian love

Wingnuts find a new low

I’m posting this video that I’ve posted in the past because it really illustrates to a T what kind of problem domestic violence shelters are dealing with.

I hesitated before writing about this, because I really, really hate dealing with MRA trolls—-who, like anti-choice nuts, have no qualms about using bullying tactics to interfere with women’s liberty on a person-to-person basis, and don’t care that their sorry asses aren’t welcome here—-but it’s an important story.  Because it really demonstrates the links between “men’s rights” activists and anti-choice activists, who are the same sexist beast but just have different focus points for their attempts to dismantle women’s liberty.  Anti-choice nuts go after reproductive rights, but MRAs focus most of their attentions on dismantling a woman’s right to separate herself from direct oppression by a husband.*  They have mostly given up trying to make divorcing itself hard—-after all men file for divorce, too—-but they focus on making sure that should women wish to leave a marriage, it’s extremely hard for them to do so, because they’ll lose custody of children, be dropped into poverty, or (and this is what this post is about) unable to escape an abuser.

One of the pet projects of the MRA community is shutting down battered women’s shelters.  In fact, they tend to have the same relationship with battered women’s shelters as anti-choicers have with women’s clinics that provide abortion, a highly individualized obsession and loathing with the very existence of these places.  The official reason to oppose funding to keep battered women’s shelters running is that they’re not equitable because most take in only women, i.e. they respond to the existing demand not the imaginary demand.  MRAs resort to highly questionable statistics to defend their belief that there is a demand for shelters for male victims of abuse, instead of more reliable statistics that show that female victims outnumber male ones 5 to 1.  To further massage the truth, MRAs tend to equate a woman slapping her husband once with the systematic abuse and threats that battered women’s shelters specialize in.  These shelters aren’t there necessarily for women who get into one physical altercation with a partner and then move in with their mothers and refuse to see him.  Nearly 31% of American women have seen some kind of beating or sexual violence from a partner, but most of them don’t need a shelter.  These exist for women who have lived with men who don’t just dabble in abuse, but carry on a campaign of degradation, beating, rape, and threats of murder to intimidate a woman into submission, and their victims need to disappear off the face of the earth in order to be safe.  Okay, that’s out of the way, and so quibbling about statistics in the thread will be considered thread-jacking attempts to distract people from the real issue, which is that individual women out there right now are trying to decide how they’re going to escape abusers without killing them or themselves, and for many of these women, shelters are their only hope.


“Men are victims, too,” should be taken in the same way you take “protecting traditional marriage” and “fetuses are people, too!”—-bad faith arguments that cover up for an inadmissible level of misogyny or bigotry.  No one disputes whether or not there are men who are hit by partners both male and female.  MRA attempts to drag the argument there are a distraction from their real mission, which is to cut funding for battered women’s shelters and get them shut down.  It no more makes sense to deprive female victims of help because of your belief in male victims than it makes sense to deprive women of contraception because your belief in fetal personhood.

I hate to write such a lengthy intro, but seriously, the troll problem with these no-life-having motherfuckers is just that bad. The real topic of this post is about a campaign that MRA nuts are waging against a single shelter—-one that helps male victims, no less!  (I guess male victims are easy to throw under the bus if it helps deprive female victims of help.)  The place is called The Family Place (donation page), and the excuse for waging an intimidation campaign against the place is that they ran some ads that MRAs think are anti-male, because the ads highlight that some men are in fact capable of hitting a woman.  You’d think they’d be more interested in going after “CSI” because it shows that some men are violent, murderous rapists, but that wouldn’t result in directly cutting aid to actual victims, so I guess it’s less than important.  Here’s an ad:

Obviously, the point of the ad is to highlight that abusers blend in with the public, that they might be your neighbor, your brother, your friend.  This is a very important message to get out there and have people believe, because the sad truth is that many female victims find, when they start casting for help, that everyone in the community around them comes to support the abuser, because he’s a nice, charming man.  In addition, abusers often isolate their victims from friends and family, and to boot, victims are often morose and look badly to friends compared to their gregarious partners.  By the time the relationships blow up, often the women find they have no friends at all, while the abusers have plenty.  This in turn helps feed the belief that false accusations are common, because people make false claims about false accusations will often have a lot more allies than people making true claims about abuse.  Shelters, again, provide an outlet, but at some point victims do have to come out and go to work and live their lives, and to do so without allies is very unsafe. 

Glenn Sacks has started a campaign to defund this particular shelter by targeting donors with faux outrage over these ads.  Sacks has tacked on some language about not being rude, but then Michelle Malkin and Glenn Reynolds picked up the baton, so who knows how long the “no rudeness” rule held up.  That’s a lot of people trying to shut down one shelter that helps families torn up by abuse get on their feet again. As Roy Edroso points out, there’s something more than a little perverse about the idea of “politely” trying to bankrupt someone anyway.  Dozens of people might go without the help they need to escape possibly murderous abusers, but I’m sure they’d feel better that no one used a dirty word while depriving them. 

The good news is the attempts to shut down The Family Place have failed.  Ampersand interviewed an employee there, and while she’s surely annoyed by the whole thing, it seems her organization escaped unscathed.

Glenn Sacks claimed his activists convinced some regular Family Place supporters to withhold donations. Have you seen any evidence of that from your end?

The only thing I know for sure is I got an email from a man who said he’d never give again, because of this. He once gave $25, in 2003.

It’s possible that [Sacks] convinced somebody besides that one donor.

Have you heard from any of your donors who had been contacted by Glenn’s campaign?

Yes. They were horrified.

What were they horrified about?

They were horrified that they were contacted. Not about the ad campaign. Horrified that someone from outside the state of Texas would call and say “don’t give money to The Family Place.” There was one of my board members who received 25 calls from the same woman.

Still, to no one’s great surprise, said donors are deeply unhappy about this situation because they’ve been subject to a volley of verbal abuse, but even if the callers obeyed a phony standard of politeness, 25 calls from one person to a board member is harassment in itself.  Of course, the actual shelter got a litany of angry calls, with the usual right wing horror at women who show any resistance to any form of oppression, even kinds (like wife-beating) that have been formally disapproved of by patriarchs in good standing.

Some of the vile language and verbal abuse we took on the phone was horrific. The kinds of things they said to our staff about what they’re going to do to them was awful. I’ve had some “you’re going to go to hell, you’re a fat lesbian luring women into those shelters so you can prey on them.”

Some conservative groups came to the defense of The Family Place, which isn’t surprising.  Seriously, how cracked do you have to be to come to the defense of wife beaters, even if you go through backdoor channels like stirring up faux outrage about an advertising campaign?  I don’t know that many of the people who get swept up in the witch hunt really comprehend how they’re working on behalf of wife beaters.  I think a lot of them really do wish to believe that feminists made up the domestic violence problem.  Like Jesse’s pointed out, arguing that liberals made up a problem to self-aggrandize or get funding is a standard right wing trope.

If this sounds familiar, it’s because it’s the explanation for every single thing movement conservatives haven’t liked since Reagan.  Global warming?  Check.  Evolution?  Check.  Labor unions?  Check.  Underage sex not causing your junk to wither off and die?  Check.  The Constitution?  Check.

But believe me, if there’s one symptom of our sexist society that I think most of feminists would get rid of if a genie gave us one wish, it would be domestic violence.  In a lot of ways, it’s the most soul-destroying issue out there, beyond reproductive rights, beyond sexual harassment, beyond sexual violence by non-intimates, beyond discrimination.  Because it’s so personal—-knowing that so many women suffer this at the hands of someone they love is just hard to take.  I can usually dig the humor out of many situations and the ludicrous nature of sexism, but domestic violence defies all but the darkest humor.  Activism in this area has a much higher burnout rate than pretty much any other area, because the problem is so ugly and intractable.  That people would harass those who have the nerve to get up every day and do this work is also unbelievably depressing.

 


*No, not all husbands are oppressive. Most aren’t, I’m sure. But the institution of marriage has a history that is rooted deeply in oppression, and the only way to change that is to build legal structures and institutions to make sure that women can maintain equality even while society still tends to think of men as “wearing the pants” in marriage. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 01:17 PM • (115) Comments

Wasn’t the point of the campaign (two other ads featured a little girl and an older girl) to highlight the toll domestic violence takes on children in the home?  Which just ads an extra layer of creepy to the whole thing.

Comment #1: preying mantis  on  12/04  at  01:36 PM

Boycotts and protests are one thing, but harassing private donors is despicable and appalling.  There is absolutely no reason to call someone 25 times.

Comment #2: Blitzgal  on  12/04  at  01:37 PM

“There was one of my board members who received 25 calls from the same woman.”
I can never understand why women would be against women’s shelters.  Who are these women?

Comment #3: raspberryjamba  on  12/04  at  01:37 PM

Not to say that it is understandable that men are against, because it isn’t, but at least we can assume that these are abusers or potential abusers trying to still scare their victims further. I can’t come up with any possible reason for women to oppose women’s shelters.

Comment #4: raspberryjamba  on  12/04  at  01:40 PM

The same women who protest at abortion centers while trying to slip in through the back door to obtain one of their own.

Some people are just more equal than others.

Comment #5: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/04  at  01:40 PM

IF female victims outnumber male victims 5 to 1 AND most shelters only take female victims, then how is that an argument to close those shelters????

I would think it would be an argument to OPEN shelters that shield men from violence, be their tormenters men, women, intimate partners, bullies, etc. 

The reason women’s shelters exist is because women got together and opened them!  Nobody is stopping MRA types from organizing and doing the same for male victims (which do exist).

Comment #6: Ms Kate  on  12/04  at  01:40 PM

Oh, it’s totally easy to be against women’s shelters.  Think about it: even if you’re generally against domestic violence, if a woman needs a shelter, then it must mean she has no friends (who could put her up) and no money (for a motel).  And if she’s that much of a loser, then probably the whole situation was her fault anyway.  And she’s probably a drug user.

I wish I was kidding, but after comments I’ve read about how we in Austin shouldn’t have lifted one finger to help people fleeing Ike for just about exactly those reasons, I’m not much surprised by this kind of evil anymore.

Comment #7: burgundy  on  12/04  at  01:44 PM

Yeah, but the women protesting abortion clinics are slut-shaming.  In their minds, the women seeking abortions are at fault, for having sex in the first place, and should suffer the consequences.  Would this mean that some women blame women for being victims of domestic violence?  Is this victim-shaming also?

Comment #8: raspberryjamba  on  12/04  at  01:44 PM

Would this mean that some women blame women for being victims of domestic violence?

I wouldn’t be surprised.  Wasn’t there an article on here a while back about a woman who made speeches about how if you were a good enough wife you wouldn’t get abused, then it came out she was abused herself?  Some evangelical Christian thing, natch.

Comment #9: Gavel Down  on  12/04  at  01:47 PM

That’s a great point, Ms Kate. One of the things that irks me about MRAs is this who idea that women get all these special benefits because we’re women, and we used our feminine wiles, or whatever.

It completely ignores or trivializes the countless women who fought and struggled to open these shelters, to lobby for funding, to make contacts with organizations like The United Way, to spread the word.

Comment #10: Sarah TX  on  12/04  at  01:49 PM

I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s a combination of internalized misogyny and the same sort of mental circumlocution a lot of female rape apologists go through - if women who are beaten by their husbands and boyfriends are bad women who deserved it somehow (or are just too weak to get away, or whatever), then clearly I, as a good and strong person, could never have it happen to me.

Comment #11: Lisa  on  12/04  at  01:49 PM

I guess if that is the case, then men also blame women for being victims of domestic violence, huh?

What’s the best thing to do if you think a friend of yours is married to an abuser?  We were thinking of buying our friend a book, but decided it would just make things worse.

Comment #12: raspberryjamba  on  12/04  at  01:49 PM

The donors need to get on the ball about harassment laws. Document everything. The first time someone calls you to say “Don’t give money to the family place” you tell them that you don’t see how it’s any of their business, and you suggest they don’t call you again. The next time they call, you tell them that if they continue to call you, you will consider it harassment. If they call again, you call the police and explain that you are being harassed over a private donation made to a domestic violence shelter. If they call again, explain that you’ve called the police and that all phonecalls are being documented and if they persist the person can be prosecuted for harassment. Follow through. Abusers tend to rest on their laurels because they think that their victims won’t proceed with legal action.

Comment #13: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/04  at  01:49 PM

Would this mean that some women blame women for being victims of domestic violence?

Of course they do. As with abortion and rape, it’s the “I’d never be dumb/slutty/whatever enough to have this happen to me, so these women shouldn’t get any rapes.”

It’s a preconception that bad things only happen to bad people, and if people are bad, it’s their own fault.

Nice how the VV article by Roy has already been inundated with creepy trolls, all of whom are, of course, liberal democrats who just happen to love Glenn Sacks, as liberals do (not that there are no misogynist liberals, but come on, that many MRA trolls on one comment thread in under a day?)

Comment #14: annejumps  on  12/04  at  01:50 PM

“I’d never be dumb/slutty/whatever enough to have this happen to me, so these women shouldn’t get any rapes.”

Oh boy. That was supposed to be “breaks.”

Comment #15: annejumps  on  12/04  at  01:51 PM

Ms Kate, exactly. It’s a bad faith argument.  Just like “protecting traditional marriage” is the cover for bigotry.

Raspberry, yes.  Victims of DV are total social lepers.  We’re all against wife-beating in theory, but in practice, people often find themselves somewhere on the spectrum between “distancing themselves from victims” and “sympathizing with the abuser”.  Women are no more immune to this problem than men.  In fact, we’ve had lawyers in comments here explain how DV and rape cases aren’t necessarily ones where prosecutors want a lot of women on the jury, because women are often prone to victim-blaming because they want to believe they have a magical blanket of protection around them that prevents them from being a victim.  If you can believe that it’s something the victim did, then you can believe you’ll be safe because you don’t do X.  If you believe that feminists made the problem up, you can believe that you’re safe.  If you’re in an abusive relationship, lashing out at other victims might be a way to stay in denial a bit longer.  There’s a host of possibilities here.

Comment #16: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/04  at  01:51 PM

Raspberry, yes it is, b/c obviously she did something to deserve it.

Comment #17: Em  on  12/04  at  01:55 PM

These shelters aren’t there necessarily for women who get into one physical altercation with a partner and then move in with their mothers and refuse to see him.  Nearly 31% of American women have seen some kind of beating or sexual violence from a partner, but most of them don’t need a shelter.  These exist for women who have lived with men who don’t just dabble in abuse, but carry on a campaign of degradation, beating, rape, and threats of murder to intimidate a woman into submission, and their victims need to disappear off the face of the earth in order to be safe.

I get the impression that there’s another similar dynamic betwen the anti-shelter and the anti-choice crowd: Just like the anti-choicers think that the rest of us LIKE abortions and enter into them lightly, there seems to be an assumption that leaving your home and moving into a shelter is a great fun lark, a first resort rather than the last. I mean, I’m sure Family Place is as nice a place as it can be, but still.

And I’m sure the wingnuts would feel that way about themselves, but they have no problem thinking that there’s a whole gaggle of women out there making up stories of false abuse so they can live in the really cool shelter.

P.S.: I just gave ‘em a few bucks. I hope they get swamped.

Comment #18: Rick Massimo  on  12/04  at  01:55 PM

What’s the best thing to do if you think a friend of yours is married to an abuser?

Usually the advice is to approach her with no judgment and say that should she ever decide to leave, your door will be open.  This checklist is really helpful.  Again, DV is an incredibly frustrating problem, because victims are often in denial and of course, they love their abusers (at least at first), so there’s just layers upon layers of shit. 

My personal experience has been that it’s easier for people to leave relationships (even just bad, if not abusive) if they can picture the route out the door.  If you can help your friend imagine a route out, and create a safety plan—-which is only what you can do if she’s ready to admit she’s in danger, so don’t push or she’ll shut down—-that would be of great assistance.

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/04  at  01:56 PM

That’s part of the brainwashing, the man (or the situation) is not at fault… your are at fault for not being a “good enough/obedient enough/subservient enough” wife. Therefore, hand in hand with that, there is no abuse problem, it can be self-denied. Besides which, some people are able to profit by being performing puppies. Maybe it is one way not to get hit (as much).

Comment #20: The Count  on  12/04  at  01:59 PM

Quote: “There was one of my board members who received 25 calls from the same woman.”
I can never understand why women would be against women’s shelters.  Who are these women?


Some of those women are dating or married to men who abuse and harass their ex’s, who refuse to see the elephant in the living room. They may not necessarily experience abuse from these men, at least not right away, as long as they support the guys, but if they end up getting divorced they experience the same or greater level of abuse (incl. custody battles) that he gives his other ex’s. These are the “false allegations of abuse” supporters. Others are victims of abuse who can’t face their own experiences, (and they often blame themselves for their own abuse), and have a scorching case of cognitive dissonance when another abused woman seeks help.

Comment #21: The Countess  on  12/04  at  02:00 PM

Would this mean that some women blame women for being victims of domestic violence?  Is this victim-shaming also?

Bingo!  Men blame women, too.  “Why did you make me hit you!!?!?!11!!”

If you are good enough, holy enough, submissive enough, care enough about your man’s ego, then he will NEVER EVER beat you. rolleyes

It would be funny if so many didn’t believe it.

Comment #22: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/04  at  02:00 PM

“What’s the best thing to do if you think a friend of yours is married to an abuser?  We were thinking of buying our friend a book, but decided it would just make things worse.”


The problem with a book is that the abusive husband might see it, and take it as cause to be even worse.  Try talking to her about it—not outright, like “Hey, is Joe slapping you around?”  Be a little subtle, get her to start talking about it.  Be a commiserating friend.  Don’t start right in trying to be superman.  Help with the little things first.  Remember, if she’s being abused, she walking a thin line in her daily life to try to minimize the amount of abuse she gets.  That may lead her to do odd things, cause that’s what it takes.  After you get her comfortable talking to you about it, even if she wont admit it’s a problem, try slipping her a card with a phone number on it, or introducing her to someone who can help.

Comment #23: rowmyboat  on  12/04  at  02:00 PM

The idea that domestic violence means there’s something wrong with the victim is horrifyingly common. It was in that shitty “The Rules” book, for one, which flat-out stated “Abuse does not happen in a Rules relationship.”

Comment #24: MissPrism  on  12/04  at  02:01 PM

I guess if that is the case, then men also blame women for being victims of domestic violence, huh?

The first time I read this, I thought it said “I guess if that is the case, then men also blame MEN for being victims of domestic violence, huh?” I wonder whether they do.

What’s the best thing to do if you think a friend of yours is married to an abuser?  We were thinking of buying our friend a book, but decided it would just make things worse.

I would suggest asking them how they’re doing, then when they say “Fine,” give them that look that says you don’t believe them. THen explain WHY you’re concerned without ever making explicit what you’re concerned about.

And accept that that still might not work.

Comment #25: Rick Massimo  on  12/04  at  02:01 PM

I’ve had some “you’re going to go to hell, you’re a fat lesbian luring women into those shelters so you can prey on them.”

“...because that’s precisely what I’d do in your situation, you bitch.”

BTW, the young woman I mentioned a while back being hit by her boyfriend?  She’s just announced her engagement to another genuinely good guy with whom she’s been shacking up for a bit.  Dunno if they’ll make it, but here’s hoping.

Comment #26: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  12/04  at  02:02 PM

“I guess if that is the case, then men also blame MEN for being victims of domestic violence, huh?” I wonder whether they do.

It’ll be a cold day in hell, Rick.  We’re ever so much more empathetic with dudes.  After all, it’s women who are irrational, emotional, unpredictable creatures, right?  Who knows why they do anything they do.

If you think a friend’s being abused?  I dunno, but make sure you talk to her alone, in person.  The book “The Sociopath Next Door” has a lot of good information but isn’t specifically about abusive relationships, so might be less likely to trigger abuse if the spouse sees it.

Comment #27: Gavel Down  on  12/04  at  02:07 PM

Good to hear it, Piator.  There’s a stereotype that abused women always end up in abusive relationships, which is more victim-blaming.  It’s not true.  Some women do have repeated problems, but many women move into happy relationships.

Comment #28: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/04  at  02:07 PM

Amanda, are there statistics on that?  I recently got out of an abusive relationship and am feeling pretty depressed and hopeless (and am scared it will happen again).

Comment #29: Emma  on  12/04  at  02:11 PM

I definitely thought that ad was targeted at abused women to some extent. Presumably the idea is that, if they can’t/won’t get out to save themselves, they’ll do it for their children? I’ve heard of this idea before, and I have mixed feelings about its message, but I don’t really know enough about DV to comment further on the pros and cons.

I told my friend about MRA’s in general a while ago, when I first found out about them, and I’ll probably mention this crap too. She’s the really sweet kind of person who would be genuinely concerned that maybe men *were* getting hurt, etc. whereas I’m her bitchy feminist friend who’s like “hell no!” to bullshit pity-pleas. :p I’m also her main source for feminist stuff like this. I hope it’s not plagiarism to crib heavily (and often) from your site? :D

Comment #30: Bagelsan  on  12/04  at  02:13 PM

Aw, Emma, you won’t.  The stereotype comes from women believing that abuse is normal in relationships, so they don’t notice the signs or look for a non-abusive man.  But non-abusive men are definitely out there, and if you recognize your prior relationship as abusive, you’ll be looking at the next one pretty carefully too.  You won’t get snared again so easily.

I’m sorry you’re feeling bad hon.  Best wishes.

Comment #31: Gavel Down  on  12/04  at  02:15 PM

“I guess if that is the case, then men also blame MEN for being victims of domestic violence, huh?” I wonder whether they do.

Well, sure, they blame the *gay* ones. Duh.

Comment #32: Bagelsan  on  12/04  at  02:16 PM

Emma, stats are *no* predictor for individuals anyways. They only predict average/group behaviors, so they don’t indicate *anything* about your specific likelihood of doing anything. (I can only reassure nerdily, I’m afraid. :p)

Comment #33: Bagelsan  on  12/04  at  02:20 PM

For what a complete stranger’s heartfelt wishes on the internet are worth, Emma, I hope things look up for you soon.

Comment #34: MissPrism  on  12/04  at  02:20 PM

Thanks, Amanda, for reiterating this.  I can’t get my mind around the twisted logic of people who want to close down women’s shelters.  I haven’t had to use one, but I have been inside one (as a one-time social worker) and the lock-down and even essentialist approach is a necessary “evil”, no question.  Thank Disco for them.

I’m speaking as someone, for what it’s worth, who once agitated to get our city to open a single men’s shelter.  I had to take a phone call one night from a distraught man who was living in fear of his boyfriend.  Being male, he wasn’t allowed into the women’s shelters—cops told him to go to the homeless shelters, which of course are too public and unsecure (and so are the homes of friends and relatives, so that argument always made me scratch my head).  So he called us.  I had never felt so helpless—he was a minority, but he needed shelter, too.  Some of us tried for a while to get funding from the city and province to open a place for the few men who need it, but no go.  The numbers didn’t justify it, we were told (this was almost a decade ago…not sure if it’s changed). 

Instead of assholes getting angry over the idea of women’s shelters, they should be pissed there’s no place for men (esp. gay victims of domestic violence) to head to in need.  Misogyny is the only reason I can think of for all of this misplaced anger.

Comment #35: Ranylt  on  12/04  at  02:20 PM

“I’ve heard of this idea before, and I have mixed feelings about its message, but I don’t really know enough about DV to comment further on the pros and cons.”

Well, it can counteract the “stay together for the children” message a lot of society puts out, which is good.  And while it’s not a given that a child who grows up in a household where the adults are violent or dysfunctional will become violent or dysfunctional themselves, it certainly stacks the deck against them.  For better or worse, parents and parental figures are the model most of us construct our ideas of “normal” around.  It’s an important piece of information if you’re weighing your options and trying to figure out which option is going to suck least.  And, of course, abusive and controlling behavior generally doesn’t end with your intimate partner if you’re an abuser.

Comment #36: preying mantis  on  12/04  at  02:25 PM

Yeah, we didn’t give her the book.  We figured he was already reading her e-mail, book would be a no-no.  She got out though, thank God.  She wasn’t to the beating point, I don’t think.  But she did get raped. 

I am concerned because a younger cousin of mine has a husband that seems abusive, and wants to take her to another city, even though she’s doing great here.  She tried to go back home once, really soon after their wedding, but her parents sent her back (to a different country, no less!).  She doesn’t seem like she is being beaten, but he does things like tell her to shut up (in front of us), tries to buddy up to my husband by suggesting women are Teh Stoopid (which my husband finds disgusting), and always turn the subject of conversations back to his job, even though her job is much more interesting.  He dismisses her comments as dumb (even though she is a really smart person) and imitates her voice in that annoying way children do.  He manages to do all this in what I think others could say is a funny way, too. 

It is to the point where we don’t ever invite them over because we hate him.  He has effectively isolated her from us.  He also gets jealous when she takes trips with her sister. 
So, I don’t want to offend her by even suggesting anything, because she probably thinks abused women=stupid, therefore I’d be suggesting she is stupid.  Or made a bad choice or something. I just don’t want her to ever have to suffer, but I don’t want her to have to pick between her pride and her happiness. 

Sorry about the long, personal post.  Feel free to delete it if I am de-railing.

Comment #37: raspberryjamba  on  12/04  at  02:26 PM

Emma, I suspect it’s impossible to get statistics on that.  But seriously, I’ve seen it happen plenty.  Abuse is not your fault, and it’s nothing you did.  It happens repeatedly because it’s common, but good men are common, too.  It’s a matter of drawing the right stick, and sometimes it’s just hard to tell.

Comment #38: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/04  at  02:28 PM

@Ranylt I honestly had never thought of that.  I don’t believe I have ever met a male victim of domestic violence.  I never even imagined any existed.  I’m trying to think of something to say here that wouldn’t be offensive.  About the best I can come up with would be to tell them to file restraining orders and/or lawsuits.  Personally (and this is in the offensive vein) I would carry a gun for self defense.  I don’t imagine many people will like that I said that.  Ultimately, and I really believe this, if no one will help protect someone, the onus for defense must come from one’s self.

Comment #39: presto  on  12/04  at  02:30 PM

I think, Ranyit, depending on the abuser, friends and relatives can be a helpful buffer. Some men won’t be stopped by anything, but some wouldn’t expose their secret to friends and relatives.  It’s a judgment call, obviously.

Comment #40: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/04  at  02:31 PM

Presto, why would you have a harder time responding to a male victim than to a female one?  What are all of these things you’re thinking that you figure are offensive?  I’m honestly bemused by your bemusement.  Especially in the case of male-on-male DV, you’ve got the same kinds of hostility from law enforcement that female victims have, so it’s not like you just have to call them cops and everything magically becomes ok (it wouldn’t magically become ok even if the cops weren’t hostile, of course.)  And the psychological damage is going to be the same (on the one hand, men aren’t primed for it the way a lot of women are, but on the other hand, the “how could I let this happen to me?” is probably worse, plus all those people who don’t believe it’s possible or think it’s kind of funny when a woman abuses a man).

When I was in high school, I spent two summers interning for a nonprofit that provided free legal assistance to DV survivors - restraining orders, divorces, etc.  A few months before I started there, they had a straight male client.  Among other things, she tried to run him down with a car.  If I were that guy, I’d be very afraid of her finding me.

Comment #41: burgundy  on  12/04  at  02:41 PM

@Emma,

You must be very proud and glad you got out, it is not easy to do.  Even when I don’t know you, it makes me happy that you got out. 

My sister once told me (when I was forteen and came home crying everytime after hanging out with my boyfriend) that I should break up with this if he didn’t make me feel like a princess, because there are lots of boys out there who are much better looking and would treat you nice!  I know, a little teenagish, but looking back, I oughta thank my sister for that little pep talk. 

So cheer up!  Lots of boys around, who are much better looking and will treat you nice!  wink  Don’t worry Emma, as long as you don’t go back to the same guy, you are taking a big step towards being happier!

I hope you feel better soon.

Comment #42: raspberryjamba  on  12/04  at  02:41 PM

Yeah.  One of two things needs to happen, any which way:

1 - Men have to have the will and critical mass to agitate to get shelters open, the way women fought for years and years just to set the precedent;

2 - Essentialism has to die.  If we hadn’t been trained from birth to think “man = all men/woman = all women), a male victim would be able to reside in a mixed-sex shelter without upsetting the psychological calm of the female victims in the haven (and which is so necessary for their support and recovery)—he simply wouldn’t be aligned so automatically with Bad Man.  The very fact that women need an all-women haven in order to feel secure from their aggressor is chilling.  This is just another example of how patriarchy affects everyone, not just women. While social-services dollars are so few, our very economics depend on overcoming essentialism.

But this is years, possibly generations away, and as I’m not a victim myself (knock wood), I’m not the one to make that call.

Comment #43: Ranylt  on  12/04  at  02:44 PM

I love this thread, and the information on it (and it looks, by area code, that the shelter is in Dallas, just down the road - good to know they have decent resources there), but part of me is waiting for the MRA crazies to show up.  ::sighs::

Comment #44: Atheist Feminazi  on  12/04  at  02:49 PM

Don’t bother trying to get around any sort of “logic” Ranylt.  It’s misogyny, pure and simple.

Comment #45: SarahMC  on  12/04  at  02:50 PM

The link that Amanda put up for what to do when you think your friend is being abused said not to recommend couples counseling. Why is that? I’d like to think that couples counselor would have to be experts in abusive relationships and would be more likely to help, but I guess not?

Comment #46: ElleDee  on  12/04  at  02:51 PM

Oh, Ranylt, that’s terrible and frustrating.  Yes, adult male DV victims are a smaller population, but indidviduals are really deserving of help, and these dicks are wasting energy attacking feminism instead of trying to help.  I do know a few guys, online at least, who are victims of domestic violence, sexual abuse, or both.  And they have heartbreaking stories of being unable to get help and being blamed, not taken seriously, or even being considered threats themselves.  This is not that different from the stories of female victims.  As a society we don’t approve of abuse, but we also hate to call it out, to interfere, be believe that our friends or family or co-workers are capable of it.  And as much as we blame women for not being strong enough, smart enough, etc. to avoid abuse, patriarchal society is even harder on male victims.

Comment #47: lonespark  on  12/04  at  02:51 PM

Like Amanda said- Abuse is not your fault, and it’s nothing you did.

Despite what Caren pointed out- Why do you make me hit you?

Abuse is not your fault, and it’s nothing you did.

Comment #48: stryx  on  12/04  at  02:53 PM

The link that Amanda put up for what to do when you think your friend is being abused said not to recommend couples counseling. Why is that? I’d like to think that couples counselor would have to be experts in abusive relationships and would be more likely to help, but I guess not?

My guess would be that, once the point of regular abuse has been reached, a) the abuser is highly unlikely to be willing to resort to therapy since “she is the problem” and b) the relationship is beyond counseling anyway.

Comment #49: Atheist Feminazi  on  12/04  at  02:56 PM

From what I remember of the MRA troll infestation on the Womanist Musings thread (on this very shelter), they were up in arms because the ads portray “all men as abusers,” not so much because men have no place to go when they’re victims.  Of course the point of the ads was flying right over their heads; they just didn’t like the implication that the innocent little boy would definitely grow up to be an abuser - as though the ad was meant to be taken literally.

Comment #50: SarahMC  on  12/04  at  02:56 PM

Ranyit, getting rid of essentialist thinking would only go so far.  They also exclude men from certain shelters because they can’t be sure that men claiming abuse aren’t abusers who are trying to trick the shelters into giving up the address so they can show up to retrieve their victims.

Comment #51: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/04  at  02:58 PM

So they are offended that people might think they are abusers, but then proceed to try to take down this shelter, thus aiding abusive men to continue to beat and rape women who have no place else to go? 
If they weren’t abusers before the protested the ads, the act of protesting them makes them abusers now for sure.

Comment #52: raspberryjamba  on  12/04  at  03:00 PM

Couples counseling?  For an abusive relationship?  First of all, what’s the woman going to say to get the man to go?  “Hey, I thought that to help us get over the fact that you beat the crap out of me and pick out my clothes, we could get some counseling.”  Yeah, no abuser is gonna go for that, especially because in his mind he’s not doing anything wrong.  Second, what’s the use in trying to counsel away such a problem anyway?  I don’t think counselors can turn abusers into non-abusers, and that’s really the only acceptable outcome if the two are going to end up together.

Comment #53: SarahMC  on  12/04  at  03:01 PM

Amanda, I don’t mind admitting I don’t know what an “MRA troll” is, and I can’t find a definition on the net (although there are lots of references to them).  Is this an American thing (I’m Canadian)?  Please help.

Brian

Comment #54: Brian  on  12/04  at  03:01 PM

“a male victim would be able to reside in a mixed-sex shelter without upsetting the psychological calm of the female victims in the haven (and which is so necessary for their support and recovery)—he simply wouldn’t be aligned so automatically with Bad Man.”

Most explanations I’ve seen for gender-segregated shelters aren’t that having a guy around will cause the women in them to flip out and because honoes, a dude; it’s that abusers will try to gain access to their victims by claiming to be abused themselves or to be a relative of a woman staying in the shelter.  It’s the one big problem I’ve seen with shelters as an answer to same-sex battering—if you’ve got an abusive partner of the same gender, it becomes much more difficult to screen intakes to keep the abuser from reaching the victim.  It would be particularly so for men, where the lower numbers would mean fewer shelter possibilities, even in a big city.

Comment #55: preying mantis  on  12/04  at  03:01 PM

That’s a good point, Amanda.  The shelters in my area are very easy to find (not terribly anonymous), but posing as a victim to _enter_ one is another can of worms.  This, of course, could also be managed with some will, but I see your point.

Comment #56: Ranylt  on  12/04  at  03:02 PM

With the windfall of donations they are bound to get after this, the shelter should run an ad campaign with the copy: “When I grow up, I will try to cut funding from women’s shelters.”

Comment #57: raspberryjamba  on  12/04  at  03:02 PM

Couples counseling is definitely not going to solve significant problems, and yeah I don’t think an abuser would agree to it, and may well respond to the suggestion with abuse, whether the victim brings it up or an acquaintance does, cuz how dare she let people get the idea there’s something wrong.

A friend of mine was in marriage counseling for many months trying to solve problems that couldn’t be solved without serious psychiatric intervention for one or both parties.  The counselor saw this and made referrals, but they were not followed up on and it ended very badly.  (Not an abuse situation, but one where the counseling format couldn’t work and just provided a false sense of trying to make it better.)

Comment #58: lonespark  on  12/04  at  03:07 PM

Money donated.  I hope these anti motherfuckers try to call me up.  I will tear them to tiny pieces.

Comment #59: Jake  on  12/04  at  03:13 PM

Amanda, I don’t mind admitting I don’t know what an “MRA troll” is, and I can’t find a definition on the net (although there are lots of references to them).  Is this an American thing (I’m Canadian)?

I didn’t know until recently that MRA stands for “men’s rights activists”—basically a bunch of insecure and/or clueless men with a tendency to project their own experience on everyone else. Some of them engage in trolling on this site, and some of them (especially in the UK) have formed activist groups that engage in the sort of stunts Amanda describes.

I recently got out of an abusive relationship and am feeling pretty depressed and hopeless (and am scared it will happen again).

Emma, they may not wear an “abusive arsehole” sign around their necks, but having already encountered one and put him (permanently) in your past, I’m certain that you’re already learning to spot the signs early. And that’s the only thing you need to change about yourself—a life lesson the vast majority of humans have to go through.

The important things to remember: you’re not destined to end up with abusive jerks, and not all men are abusive jerks. Caution is fine, but don’t let fear rule your life.

Comment #60: Gracchus  on  12/04  at  03:15 PM

is there a website for donating to family place?

Comment #61: t-ster  on  12/04  at  03:20 PM

uh…nevermind.  My eyes are broken.

Comment #62: t-ster  on  12/04  at  03:21 PM

Not to spam this comment thread, but it would be cool if there was a way to donate to the family place, but have a notice sent to this MRA douchebag to let him know people are donating because of his actions. Kind of like the donating to Planned Parenthood in honor of Sarah Palin type thing…

Comment #63: t-ster  on  12/04  at  03:25 PM

I’m happy to learn from Amanda that my actions regarding an abused acquaintance of my gf were correct. Since it ended badly (though, thankfully, not catastrophically) I wasn’t sure I was doing the right thing.

We learned than an acquaintance of my gf was receiving verbal abuse and we made sure to let her know we believed her and that we were on her side. At some point she asked my gf if we could give her some shelter for a few weeks so she could escape. Even though we both find her annoying (and I only put up with her because my gf knows her), I thought it was the right thing to do. I’d like to think that reading this blog and making feminist issues more important in my overall political praxis were responsible for me agreeing (chalk one up for Pandagon).

Unfortunatly she went back home with another guy friend to pick up her stuff and her ex-bf/slash/coed freaked out and ended up breaking her wrist. She’s now out of the city at her parents’ place (our place being in the same city, she didn’t feel safe enough). At least she’s safely out now.

Comment #64: BlackBloc  on  12/04  at  03:28 PM

<blockqutoe>I don’t know what an “MRA troll” is</blockquote>
I think MRA stands for “Mens’ Rights Advocacy.”  Which is usually just a TLA for “asshole.”  They protest against women being given special consideration or assistance that isn’t also extended to men (or more specifically, they themselves), much like Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action protesters gripe about minorities getting special help not extended to whites.  The “troll” part is problematic, as anyone who disagrees with a prevailing sentiment on a blog is considered a “troll” if he speaks up.

Comment #65: liberalrob  on  12/04  at  03:35 PM

No, liberalrob.  It’s the whining, the goalpost shifting, and the bad faith arguments that mark the troll.  I bet you’d find that even abandoning goalpost shifting would make it easier to avoid the label.

Comment #66: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/04  at  03:49 PM

you mean like how you disagreed that upskirt photography was misogynist, liberalrob? You mean like how in that thread, after numerous women described how violated they felt after having been upskirted by men, you went on to describe how turned on you are by women who wear certain clothing and can see how that sort of behavior is just an extension of lust? Yeah, it was because you “disagreed” that you were labeled a troll, there.

Pinhead.

Comment #67: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/04  at  03:51 PM

Huh, and here I was thinking it was “Men’s Rights Assholes” all along.

Comment #68: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  12/04  at  03:51 PM

Wow, I just watched the tape.  Thank god she got that judge instead of some asshloe judge who would have given the guy a shorter sentence.  I wouldn’t have guessed that he got 36 years.  The way things are, I thought he would have gotten away with 10-15, even after the tape is made. 

And the salvaging the family thing, that must be very commonplace, because that is what my friend said about not leaving her abusive husband.  She wanted her kids to have a father.

Comment #69: raspberryjamba  on  12/04  at  03:53 PM

I found that counceling only works if the participants can admit that what they are doing is wrong.  I stopped when my now Ex got angry that the counceler was not trying to make me stay (Not an abusive relationship, but very very manipulative)

Comment #70: LadyH  on  12/04  at  03:53 PM

And I bet the assholes who say marriage is “one woman, one man” push this “your kids need a father” thing, too.

Comment #71: raspberryjamba  on  12/04  at  03:57 PM

Thanks for the links, Amanda!

If you do donate to The Family Place, please let me know, either by emailing me (barry at amptoons dot com) or by leaving a comment on my blog; my blog will be matching donations up to a total of $800 until Tuesday, so it’s an easy way to double the value of your donation.

Comment #72: Ampersand  on  12/04  at  03:59 PM

Ooooh it makes my blood boil to think that the father’s rights/family “values” brigade has successfully convinced abused women that their children are better off living in a home with their abusive father than being safe with a single mother.

Comment #73: SarahMC  on  12/04  at  04:05 PM

The link that Amanda put up for what to do when you think your friend is being abused said not to recommend couples counseling. Why is that? I’d like to think that couples counselor would have to be experts in abusive relationships and would be more likely to help, but I guess not?

I was verbally abused by my stepmother for years.  It eventually took a toll on her and my father’s marriage, despite his commitment to always prioritizing his wife over his children.  They eventually tried couples counseling and forced me to go along.  On the first visit, the stepmother pretended to be a nice, rational, reasonable adult.  Just being a kid, I didn’t know better than to let her get away with it.  There was also the fact that many adults refuse to take the complaints of kids seriously, and, based on some things she said to me, our specific counselor seemed to be that type.

I could easily see the same thing happening in an abusive adult relationship.  Battered women will likely be too ashamed, and scared, to talk about what’s going on to a counselor, especially if the abuser is sitting right there.  She might also think that the counselor won’t believe her, and there’s the likelihood that the abuser will charm the pants off the counselor while pretending to be such a great guy.  At best, couples counseling would be a complete waste of time.  At worst, it could make the DV victim feel that much more powerless.

Comment #74: keshmeshi  on  12/04  at  04:06 PM

Emma,  I do not have statistics, only an anecdote.  Spouse was in an abusive relationship a couple years and one other relationship before she met me.  She’s been in two relatively healthy relationships after the abusive one.  Seeing a therapist helped.  I hope you are feeling better soon.

Comment #75: Ron O.  on  12/04  at  04:07 PM

I don’t care what you LIEbrals think, I’m all for men’s rights.  Just because a fella walks around in assless chaps doesn’t make him a piece of meat for you ladies to catcall at!!!

Comment #76: Rugged in Montana  on  12/04  at  04:14 PM

Funny that men who actually are survivors of rape or relationship abuse never join those assholes to parade around yelling ‘Look, it happened to me too! Take that feminists!’ I wonder if they’ve ever noticed.

Comment #77: Ethan  on  12/04  at  04:17 PM

Emma, as someone with a little of history herself, you *can* break the trend. I’m with a great guy now who treats me ten times better than all my exes put together.  Good luck!

Comment #78: melaka  on  12/04  at  04:17 PM

<blockquote>“I guess if that is the case, then men also blame MEN for being victims of domestic violence, huh?” I wonder whether they do. <?blockquote>

Hmmmm.  I think they only have use of male victims of domestic violence as hypotheticals to use to shut down women’s shelters.  Should someone try to mention a real situation, I think their reaction would be the following:

If a real man was beaten by a woman?  What a wuss!  Man up and smack her back, dude.  How can you let a woman beat you up?  You need to get to a gym!  Or else you’re gay.

If a gay man was beaten by a man?  That’s just fucked up!  And GAY!

The victims aren’t human beings to them, they are property.  How dare property think it has rights?  And why should property get rights and services that aren’t provided to real human men?  And gay men?  Just totally messed up deviants that should go recloset themselves.

We’re dealing with a lack of empathy here.

-Slight derail:  My son’s second grade class wrote the presidential candidates last spring, and they wrote back to them.  Obama’s, of course, kicks McCain’s ass, but what I really liked was in the middle he asked if the kids in the class knew what empathy meant, and if not, to go look it up.  He feels their generation will require lots of it in order to keep us moving forward.

Meh, Barry said it better, but it’s the same idea.  We need to acknowledge the humanity of everyone.

Comment #79: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  12/04  at  04:19 PM

Amanda, are there statistics on that?  I recently got out of an abusive relationship and am feeling pretty depressed and hopeless (and am scared it will happen again).

I know the plural of anecdote isn’t data, but I’ve known two women who were in abusive relationships and are now married/engaged to great guys.  Good luck!

Comment #80: Fashionably Evil  on  12/04  at  04:30 PM

Of course the point of the ads was flying right over their heads; they just didn’t like the implication that the innocent little boy would definitely grow up to be an abuser - as though the ad was meant to be taken literally.

I’m also a little suspicious that the problem is that it’s a little white boy.  As long as abusers can propagate the idea that only “bad,” lower-class, poor, and/or black and brown men are abusers, the more they can get away with.  The “nice white boy” defense works a lot of the time in rape cases, and I think it happens in domestic abuse cases as well.  He has a good job!  He went to college!  He’s a pillar of the community!  There’s no way that such a great guy could be beating his wife.

Comment #81: Mnemosyne  on  12/04  at  04:31 PM

Emma, I have a co-worker whose first marriage was abusive, complicated by her alcoholism.  She’s now in recovery, remarried to a great guy, and had a baby last year.

You’ll probably want to get some therapy to get your confidence back, but you’re not doomed.

Comment #82: Mnemosyne  on  12/04  at  04:34 PM

Has anyone seen the animated gif of the guy beating his head against the keyboard until its nothing more than a bloody stump of post-face?  That’s how I feel when I read stuff like this.  There’s no end to douchebags.

Comment #83: Eric  on  12/04  at  04:54 PM

I would think it would be an argument to OPEN shelters that shield men from violence, be their tormenters men, women, intimate partners, bullies, etc.

The reason women’s shelters exist is because women got together and opened them!  Nobody is stopping MRA types from organizing and doing the same for male victims (which do exist).

Ms. Kate,

I completely agree with your first point.  Helping victims of DV should not be a zero sum game.

As for MRAs opening shelters for male DV victims, well, that’s not what these choads (MRAs) are all about.  Male DV victims (who are a real and underserved population, though certainly less numerous that female DV victims) all too often encounter resistance or disbelief when they attempt to seek help.  Shame also prevents many battered men from seeking help, since traditional gender roles dictate that men should not allow themselves to victimized.  Finding real help for male victims of DV would involve a willingness to seriously question traditional gender roles, something that MRAs do not seem to be willing to do.

As a male, if I were a victim of DV, the last thing I’d want is these wankers trying to help me.  Better to be helped by serious, caring, trained professionals of both genders.

Comment #84: Captain Bathrobe  on  12/04  at  05:21 PM

Actually, a woman I knew pretty well in the early days of the internet did go to a battered woman’s shelter after a single incidence of partner violence. It was at the end of a long escalation of other really scary behavior, she had two very small children and lived far away from family and friends, and she decided she wasn’t going to wait for round two even if it meant going to a shelter. I was always proud of her for that. I was a teenager when this happened, and I remember looking at her and resolving that if a partner ever hit me, I wouldn’t wait for the second time before leaving, just like her.

In other news, I really did not know MRAs could get this low. Christ on a pogo stick. That’s pretty low.

Comment #85: purpleshoes  on  12/04  at  05:24 PM

This is just too fucked up for words. The shelters are there to alleviate what can sometimes be the worst kind of suffering. Domestic violence happens, women are far more frequently the victims, therefore women’s shelters are necessary and beneficial. I wish there were same way to put the people who called to protest on some kind of watch list.

And why can’t there be a pro-feminist men’s rights movement? I remember the early years of the current current crop of MRA and while I was attracted to some of their ideas, I soon discovered the “A” stood as much for “asshole” as anything else.

As for the very small number of het men who are victims of domestic violence, I almost became one myself. Hell, the relationship was so fucked up I almost became a perpertrator of DV. Good thing we didn’t live together. Should have left first time she hit me, but I had to stay to “rescue” her fom her mental illness. One time when things were really getting out of control, she had destroyed some of my property and we had gotten into a physical struggle over my cell phone, I called the cops. Two officers came and interviewed us seperately. I explained that I was being physically prevented from leaving and I didn’t see any way to get out of the house other than beating this person up. Cops said I did the right thing. They offered me the chance to file a crimminal complaints for assault and destruction of property. And in a classic Prisoner’s Dilemma situation they offered her a chance to press assault charges against me. We both declined to do so. So guys out there, if you are really pushed to your limits, you can still call the police rather than hitting a woman.

On a sad note, like an idiot I stayed in this relationship for another year. Things didn’t end until she kicked out my window one night.  I had too strong a need to “fix” things. I grew up in an emotionally abusive home and I think I was attracted to this relationship because it gave me a chance to somehow have power over an emotionally troubled woman and somehow “make her right” in a way that I was unable to do with my mentally ill mother. I was just as powerless in this relationship as I was back when I was a kid. I once heard a wise person say: When an eight year old is bitten by a dog, he becomes afraid of dogs. When a five year old is bitten by a dog, he becomes a veteranarian.” That was so true in my case. For a long time I ended up in difficult relationships where I was really trying to have a kind of power over the other person: The power to give enough and care enough to make the other person not feel the horrible things she felt.

Needless to say I completely understand how women feel they have to stay in abusive relationships. Not only are they worn down and coerced into staying, sometimes to the point of fearing for their lives; they may in some cases have their own internal agenda that makes them stay. They may want to “do it right this time” in an attempt to have power over some abuse they witnessed or experienced. I do not say this to blame the victims. I say it to help them. If we can understand *all* of the reasons women might stay, we can do a better job of helping them leave.

Sorry for making this personal confession time.

Comment #86: Bacopa  on  12/04  at  05:27 PM

FWIW, it is generally accepted among couples therapists (I’m one of them) that active physical abuse means that couples therapy is contraindicated, for exactly the reasons mentioned here (i.e., the abused partner could not fully participate in therapy if there was a fear of abuse afterward).  I refuse to see couples where there is active physical abuse or an ongoing affair.  Typically, though, abusers refuse to come to therapy anyway, unless they are court ordered.

Comment #87: Captain Bathrobe  on  12/04  at  05:32 PM

Emma, I hope we’re not overwhelming you here, but one of the awesome things local DV shelters do is put women who’ve been in your situation in touch with therapists, often for a very low price.  I’m just putting that out on the thread in general, actually: both local DV-prevention organizations and county mental health services can put people who are dealing with the aftermath of abusive situations in touch with professionals who can help, and there’s often financial assistance to make therapy possible.

Which is another thing that I am now mad about these MRA dbags going after. Argh.

Comment #88: purpleshoes  on  12/04  at  05:38 PM

And why can’t there be a pro-feminist men’s rights movement?

There is one… it’s called Feminism. smile

Without getting into the gory details, I have held the same counsel for men with violent gfs as I have with women with violent bfs… the gender of the abuser does not matter when you’re interested in gender equality and relationship safety.

Most “what about the menz” people declare that feminism and men’s rights are incompatible because they want to crash every discussion about women’s oppression and turn into a discussion AND ONLY A DISCUSSION of men’s oppression.

Comment #89: Mighty Ponygirl  on  12/04  at  05:39 PM

To add in to the “counselling isn’t the answer” meme, I did family counselling when I was a teen, and ingrained in my mind are the long silent, emotionally tense (and at the same time emotionally exhausted and fragile) rides back to a silent sullen home where no one would interact for at least a 24 hour period if possible. And I had siblings around to share the frustration/anger of my ‘problem’ parent with and we could stay out of the way (and it was only emotional, never physical… but bad enough for all of that… )

I can’t imagine what the ride home with your abuser would be like after a session that went badly, let alone what might happen when they got home.

Comment #90: kodiak  on  12/04  at  05:57 PM

The woman in that video was lucky (a) that her scumbag of a husband was dumb enough to have himself taped while attacking her, and (b) she was the one with a job. Can you imagine how much harder it would have been otherwise to get out, and to get him put away?


(Raspberryjamba - Does your friend have kids? Could you put her and/or them up in a pinch?)

Comment #91: Molly, NYC  on  12/04  at  05:59 PM

Molly, NYC:

She got out, thankfully.  We did offer to put her and her kids up if she ever needed it.  Her husband opened her e-mail and found out about our offer, and it got much worse, she asked us to stop contacting her.
Recently she finally got out, kept the kids, moved out and got a pretty cool job.  I think she was very smart about it, she waited until she had the job to leave him.  Pretty big deal considering he would destroy her school work when he got mad.

Comment #92: raspberryjamba  on  12/04  at  06:09 PM

The official reason to oppose funding to keep battered women’s shelters running is that they’re not equitable because most take in only women

Then these turkeys should be using their time and money to set up shelters for battered men, not trying to close down homes for battered women.

Comment #93: Notorious P.A.T.  on  12/04  at  06:12 PM

Should have left first time she hit me, but I had to stay to “rescue” her from her mental illness.

That’s one of those things that crosses gender lines.  My sister-in-law is STILL trying to “rescue” her boyfriend from his drug addiction (which I strongly suspect is complicated by untreated ADD and/or bipolar).  It’s been 15 years and two kids, he’s spent more time in prison than out of it, and yet she still tracks him down as soon as he’s released and gets him to move back in with her.  He just ended up back in jail because he was stealing stuff from the other tenants’ storage spaces to buy heroin.

No wonder my nephew gets depressed at the holidays (even beyond his bipolar troubles), because somehow that’s always when this drama hits.  Fortunately, he’s getting a lot of therapy and, now that he’s living with my father-in-law, is starting to learn you can’t control people by hitting them.

Comment #94: Mnemosyne  on  12/04  at  07:04 PM

For a site that takes minority opression to task (as you should), its a bit disingenuous to be quoting the 5:1 female/male ratio as an argument for marginalizing the needs of male abuse victims.

Just sayin.’

Comment #95: Ginger Joe  on  12/04  at  07:12 PM

Ginger Joe:

1. No one here marginalized the needs of male abuse victims;

2 Only a complete idiot would confuse the use of the female:male ratio among abuse victims as an argument against shelters to be marginalizing the needs of male victims; and

3. Go screw yourself.

Comment #96: Molly, NYC  on  12/04  at  07:20 PM

So, the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many?  Yeah, that’s efficient.

Comment #97: Eric, Rejector of Memez  on  12/04  at  07:25 PM

I would think it would be an argument to OPEN shelters that shield men from violence, be their tormenters men, women, intimate partners, bullies, etc.

For a site that takes minority opression to task (as you should), its a bit disingenuous to be quoting the 5:1 female/male ratio as an argument for marginalizing the needs of male abuse victims.

Just sayin.’

Asshole alert.

Just sayin’.

Comment #98: gwangung  on  12/04  at  07:43 PM

So this thread got me to search on “murder-suicide”.

I came across the story of Melissa Batten.

Attractive, intelligent, well-employed, of means- still, none of that could protect her.

Killed by her estranged, restraining-ordered husband with a gun.

Comment #99: stryx  on  12/04  at  08:26 PM

It goes unsaid that many of the men for whom shelters would be a resource are abused by MEN. MRAs are actually against the rights of human beings—a fact that we should be able to deduce from the evidence that they are against the rights of women, but somehow they don’t seem to see the logic…

Comment #100: serena kitt  on  12/04  at  09:03 PM

For a site that takes minority opression to task (as you should), its a bit disingenuous to be quoting the 5:1 female/male ratio as an argument for marginalizing the needs of male abuse victims.

How does it help male abuse victims to shut down shelters for domestic abuse victims, particularly this one that takes male abuse victims?

Please explain how taking services away from male abuse victims helps male abuse victims.

Comment #101: Mnemosyne  on  12/04  at  09:09 PM

For a site that takes minority opression to task (as you should), its a bit disingenuous to be quoting the 5:1 female/male ratio as an argument for marginalizing the needs of male abuse victims.

And this would make perfect sense, if women outnumbered men five to one.

In other words, men are not marginalized: they’re just a hell of a lot more violent than women.

Comment #102: Shira  on  12/04  at  09:27 PM

Thanks for sharing, Bacopa.  I think that your example will really help people who’ve never been stuck in the spiral that is an abusive relationship see how you can feel “stuck” when people around you don’t perceive that.

Comment #103: Amanda Marcotte  on  12/04  at  10:36 PM

Emma, you’ll be fine, just don’t rush into a relationship just to be in one.  Take some time, get over what you’ve been through, then find a good man to be with.

The woman in that video was lucky (a) that her scumbag of a husband was dumb enough to have himself taped while attacking her

LOL no kidding.  I love it when some idiot videotapes themself breaking the law.  It’s like, society thanks you for helping us lock your dumb ass up.

Comment #104: Notorious P.A.T.  on  12/04  at  11:06 PM

Thanks, everyone, for the encouragement.  I really appreciate it.

Comment #105: Emma  on  12/04  at  11:08 PM

Very true Shira, men are a lot more violent than women. I’m not sure if its innate or socially conditioned, I lean towards the latter with maybe perhaps a sprinkling of the former.  We put that violence to use for our benefit sometimes, even if its controlled violence like with the military but its violence nonetheless.  Some men actually are marginalized, though I call them boys, not quite sure where the line on that is but they are also victims of all the shit we have going on and 15-16 year old boys from broken homes are really fucked in a lot of ways, dont have access to a lot of resources since they are often deemed dangerous and become abusers down the line, thats what I thought of when I initially saw the ad but I also have come to understand its a call to all, not just the most at-risk.

I wish there was more funding for all kinds of shelters, I know that for a long time we will still need to have female/male/trans barriers set up in a lot of them but working towards breaking that down would be awesome. As Amanda points out, a lot of people use stats disingenuously to distract from the larger issues but if some of the newer stats coming out on the incidence of DV outside the most talked about paradigm, male/female, get people to think outside the gender confines, get men to report more or avail themselves of social services and social networks more I think it would be great as it would be one more stop in breaking the cycle. It’d be especially great for everyone i think if more could get out there about emotional abuse and the fact that physical abuse does actually count even if it doesnt leave a bruise or break a bone. Lots of work to be done and we need more people to join the fight like the ones at this shelter, not for some guys to get all out of joint because they get made to feel uncomfortable.

Comment #106: dananddanica  on  12/04  at  11:17 PM

One big problem with couples counseling has already been mentioned (fear of reprisal preventing the victim from really speaking honestly in-session), but another is that it paints the problem as one with the relationship, i.e., something that both people are at fault for and can fix by just learning to “communicate” better, etc. This isn’t just a problem with couples counseling, of course, it’s also a way many people (not just abusers) try to minimize abuse, by acting as though it’s just a case of two dysfunctional people causing drama and fighting all the time. This is also what leads to MRAs claiming that most abuse is “mutual,” which is laughable, since abuse is based on control and it’s sort of impossible for two people to simultaneously control each other.

And yeah, many abusers won’t go to couples counseling, but some will, and will even suggest it. The cycle of violence is tension—> abuse—> apology, and part of the apology stage can include promises to go to counseling, anything to keep the victim in the relationship in the hope that things will change. It’s just another form of manipulation, of course, because the abuser never actually thinks that there’s anything wrong with his behavior. I do advocacy for DV victims and I recently had a client who had a very detailed plan to leave her husband, but who called and left a message two weeks later saying everything was fine and they were going to couples counseling. Unfortunately I wasn’t able to reach her again, but it makes me sad to think that she was *this* close to getting out and now things will probably get worse for her.

Comment #107: Stephanie  on  12/05  at  12:00 AM

<blockquote>men are a lot more violent than women<blockquote>

haha.  Good one.

Comment #108: Notorious P.A.T.  on  12/05  at  12:02 AM

Okay, I can’t hear what is going on in the video. But I do get the idea.

There is one thing I’m having a hard time understanding.  WHY is the guy beating on his wife while someone is filming this? I mean, what is this?  Did the guy actually have someone come over and film them? How did this happen?

Comment #109: melaka  on  12/05  at  01:26 AM

Okay, wait. never mind.  I got it. I went to you tube and they explained the son was filming them.  Oh gosh.

Then I read some comments *retch*

I’m going to take a long shower now to wash off the stink.

Comment #110: melaka  on  12/05  at  01:29 AM

i have never understood peoples’ abilities to ignore and/or rationalize DV.
i have quite a bit of personal experience with that happening. its MUCH worse with the courts and the cops, in my experience (which, while all anecdote, would still make a LARGE pile of anecdotes between myself and all the friends and family i know who have been in these positions)

in my experience, cops DO NOT WANT to interfere; they are, to an extent, trained not too, because they are told (over and over) that interference in a fight can cause the abused to join the abuser in attacking you. and child protective services! they are totally willing to BELIEVE that a 12 year old CHILD seduced her step-father, on ONLY his word, so that they don’t have to “break up a family” because he was raping.

because girls can’t be raped, dontchaknow, we are all only creatures of inequity and base lust…

sorry for the mini-rant there, it’s just that ideas that pander to the MRAs and the Far Right are STILL be taught as FACTS to new police and lawyers and social workers. while a lot of these public servants ignore/overcome the basic prejudice, it seems to me that a far great number buy it hook, line and sinker.

Comment #111: denelian  on  12/05  at  01:57 AM

Molly:

1. No one here marginalized the needs of male abuse victims;

I quote (emphasis mine):

“The official reason to oppose funding to keep battered women’s shelters running is that they’re not equitable because most take in only women, i.e. they respond to the existing demand not the imaginary demand.  MRAs resort to highly questionable statistics to defend their belief that there is a demand for shelters for male victims of abuse, instead of more reliable statistics that show that female victims outnumber male ones 5 to 1.


2 Only a complete idiot would confuse the use of the female:male ratio among abuse victims as an argument against shelters to be marginalizing the needs of male victims; and

You’re right, if the use of the statistic (see above) wasn’t used in a phrase which was basically an apologetic for male abuse marginalization.  Unfortunately, it was, regardless of the following invective:

3. Go screw yourself.

Cute.

Comment #112: Ginger Joe  on  12/05  at  03:16 AM

Mnemosyne:

The OP used the stat in a manner that appeared to bat away any mention of male abuse victims as just a diversionary tactic by the ‘enemy.’  The statement in question (see the post above) related to the group’s tactics writ large, while your response related only to this specific example.  While I do believe you are sincere in your confusion, this sort of talking past each other is far too common when dissent arises in the blogosphere.

Comment #113: Ginger Joe  on  12/05  at  03:24 AM

In the interest of pissing off visitors, does everyone know the MRA song by Stephen Lynch?

Comment #114: hf  on  12/05  at  04:40 AM

“She doesn’t seem like she is being beaten, but he does things like tell her to shut up (in front of us), tries to buddy up to my husband by suggesting women are Teh Stoopid (which my husband finds disgusting), and always turn the subject of conversations back to his job, even though her job is much more interesting.  He dismisses her comments as dumb (even though she is a really smart person) and imitates her voice in that annoying way children do.  He manages to do all this in what I think others could say is a funny way, too. “

From way upthread.

I just wanted to say that reading this paragraph was like reading about my life a year ago, only my partner was female and so am I. It’s interesting reading the third-person perspective, because it was witnesses like raspberryjamba who stepped in and said something and opened the door for me to leave. I want to encourage that to happen. If this is what you’re seeing, with you as an audience, what’s happening at home is likely much, much worse.

This year since I left hasn’t been the best year of my life, but reading that makes me remember that the year before was so, so, so much worse.

Leaving is difficult and amazing.

Like Emma, I have serious doubts about forming relationships again, but I imagine it will happen with time. I don’t think that there is anything inherent to me that caused her to treat me like that, but I do know that I am cautious as all-get-out of trusting anyone to get close enough to have another go.

Comment #115: slashy  on  12/05  at  04:55 AM

One other reason for avoiding couples counseling in an abusive relationship: there are plenty of couple counselors out there, especially ones associated with some organized religions, who don’t really believe that women have the right not to be abused.

Comment #116: paul  on  12/05  at  03:57 PM
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