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Next entry: Don’t forget the over the top misogynist wingnuts already in Congress Previous entry: Mad Men Tuesdays: Sally Draper, Feminist Hero Edition

Wingnutteria sez: We’ve always been at war with Arabia

For today’s entry in the “it doesn’t matter how evil/stupid/intellectually dishonest it is, if it pisses off the liberals, it’s gold” genre, I bring you Tucker Carlson defending the nutbar-dominated Texas School Board for their particular spin on the “everyone let’s hate Muslims now” frenzy.  Some school board members are claiming, and this is so loony that I’m having trouble typing it, that the textbook industry is being taken over by a cabal of “Middle Easterners” that are using the textbooks to push Islam and denounce Christianity.  (Please no one tell them that there are even more religions than these two in the world; they’ll lose it completely.)  They claim that there’s bias against the Crusaders (!) and that the books spend more time detailing Islam than Christianity (probably because they assume the audience is familiar with Christianity).  To make it even worse, what little “evidence” they have is from textbooks that aren’t in use. 

Obviously, the real concern the members have is that boring old social studies textbooks that document world history might have factual information in them that might incline astute readers to wonder if Muslims aren’t human beings, or that Middle Eastern history is more complex than “a bunch of people sat in caves eating babies for thousands of years”, as right wingers might have you believe.  They may even learn disturbingly humanizing information about the cultural innovations and traditions of many Muslim countries that might incline them to be (gasp!) less racist.  After all, one of the most common habits of white supremacists it to pretend to be the member of a ill-defined tribe of white people that they claim invented pretty much everything.  That way, even though they themselves are dumb fucks, they can believe that they’re superior just by being a member of this distinguished tribe.  Learning that much of the Middle East was going through a cultural renaissance while Europe was still stuck in medieval thinking is the sort of information that can destabilize pat white supremacist beliefs about how Europeans are better at everything by virtue of genetics.  They may even learn why we call our number notation system “Arabic numerals”, or why their math class after history has that awfully Arabic-sounding name “algebra”. 

Anyway, reality, much less basic humanity, is no competition in Tucker Carlson’s eyes when there are liberals to piss off.  He claims that there’s “studies” showing that textbooks are promoting Islam and denouncing Christianity:

The whining about the Crusades is particularly egregious, because the concern here is that students are learning the truth.  And the truth is that Christians started it.  Right wingers want to nit pick and claim this number of casualties or that, and it’s all an attempt to distract from the larger, more important point, which is that European coalitions repeatedly invaded Muslim lands in order to conquer the Holy Land.  If the Christians had said, nah, we’re going to do our laundry instead, this wouldn’t have happened.  That those who were in the defensive crouch won a couple of battles doesn’t mean that they suddenly became the aggressors in this.  This is all dooking around in order to distract from basic realities.  In fact, I would argue that it’s a kind of denialism, much like Holocaust denialism, except that it doesn’t seem as awful because the events that the wingnuts are obsessing over denying happened so long ago. 

I’m not pointing this out to say that Christians are more or less bloodthirsty than Muslims.  I reject the term “bloodthirsty” when applied across the board to entire groups of people as a natural state of being.  Modern Christians didn’t conduct the Crusades any more than most Muslims support terrorism, and I don’t hold them responsible for them.  I don’t think a bunch of high school kids are going to read about the Crusades and think, “Oh my god, all modern Christians are evil people!” 

What this is about is a group of people who think the Crusades were a great thing and that we should still be fighting them, because they hate Muslims.  Full stop.  They want to rewrite history so that the Crusades seem more appealing in order to get more people to buy into that premise, because right now, most rational people tend to think of the Crusades and they think “unjust war of aggression”.  You know, the truth.  The wingnuts also have a side order of wanting to pretend that Muslim terrorists are soldiers in a battle that hasn’t ever really ended, and are just as much Crusaders as the medieval people who ransacked Jerusalem.  Never mind that there’s no reason to believe that the 9/11 terrorists were yelling, “Remember 1099!”, or that’s widespread support for that sentiment.  This is all about establishing the notion that we can engage in an endless war against various Middle Eastern countries, because we’ve always been at war with Islam.  It’s very “1984”.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:37 PM • (105) Comments

You know how people have these time-travel fantasies about going back and killing Hitler? If I could pull something like that off, then after killing Hitler I’d find whoever was responsible for convincing the religious right in this country to start trying to run school boards and I’d knock him/her in the head as well. The amount of damage they’ve done to public education over the last thirty years is unconscionable.

Comment #1: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  09/21  at  07:31 PM

Your 1984 analogy is especially apt because back during the Cold War the United States used Islam to prevent economic nationalism in the Middle East and Central Asia (and still does, just look at our relationship with Saudi Arabia).

Comment #2: clever screen name  on  09/21  at  07:37 PM

Someone should make a spoof site, claiming algebra is a Muslim plot, and claim it should be renamed “Formula Arithmetic.”

Comment #3: James  on  09/21  at  07:37 PM

James:

And that we should go back to using Roman Numerals, not these crazy Islamic numerals we’ve had foisted on us by pointy headed Pro-Islamist mathematicians.

Comment #4: Keith  on  09/21  at  07:50 PM

Keith:  I see absolutely no problems with your assertion. If it was good enough for Rome, it’s good enough for us. 

http://www.jimloy.com/arith/division.htm 
http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/57564.html

I"m already on etsy looking for cute pebbles for my calculator.

Comment #5: Kyso K  on  09/21  at  07:55 PM

Arabic Numerals => Algebra => Calculus => Relativity => Atomic Reactors => Atomic Bomb => Nuclear Iran!

They only have themselves to blame when we turn the whole Middle East into a glass parking lot. 

Damn IslamoCommunoLiberalFascists!  Next time keep your damn funny squiggles to yourselves!...

Comment #6: MikeEss  on  09/21  at  08:19 PM

Most of this anti-Islamic rhetoric reads like the wingnuts dusted off their old anti-communist, anti-one-worlder junk and did a ‘find & replace’ on the documents, substituting ‘terrorist Mooslims’ where ‘dirty Commies’ used to go.

Comment #8: videogrrl  on  09/21  at  08:29 PM

Spoonfeeding the base, who will accept this without question. I do not look forward to seeing how far the right wing will go in bringing down the intelligence level in this country.

Comment #9: UltraMagnus  on  09/21  at  08:29 PM

You know how people have these time-travel fantasies about going back and killing Hitler?

That never works.

I’m surprised the wingnuts don’t complain about games like “Medieval : Total War” or “Euopa Universalis” which, you know, show both sides and allow you to try out each.

Comment #10: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/21  at  08:42 PM

I do not look forward to seeing how far the right wing will go in bringing down the intelligence level in this country.

Think “Idiocracy” or Super Sad True Love Story and you won’t be far off..

Comment #11: Steve LaBonne  on  09/21  at  09:01 PM

At least TuckTuck got rid of that fucking bow tie.

Fucking clown

Comment #12: kitten parade  on  09/21  at  09:09 PM

Don’t forget the Muslim plot of “alcohol”.

Comment #13: Linnaeus  on  09/21  at  09:14 PM

And the truth is that Christians started it.

No, they didn’t.

The truth is that it’s extremely complicated, and you’re not going to accurately summarize what happened in one book, let alone one blog post, and never mind about one sentence.

Comment #14: Alkaloid  on  09/21  at  09:15 PM

I’m surprised the wingnuts don’t complain about games like “Medieval : Total War” or “Euopa Universalis” which, you know, show both sides and allow you to try out each.

They’ve started with Modern Warfare, which lets you play as the Taliban. So I’m sure it’s just a matter of time.

Comment #15: Seebach  on  09/21  at  09:17 PM

The resolution cites examples in past world history books – no longer used in Texas schools – that devoted far more lines of text to Islamic beliefs and practices than to Christian beliefs and practices.

Well, yes, because you go to school to learn things that you don’t already know.

Or are these people saying parents in Texas routinely neglect their children’s religious education?

Comment #16: Bitter Scribe  on  09/21  at  09:30 PM

remember 1099…


... remember 1099… 


OH SHIT QUARTERLY TAXES!

Comment #17: pasteymachine  on  09/21  at  09:30 PM

that awfully Arabic-sounding name “algebra”

Now served in the Senate cafeteria: Freedom-falfa sprouts atop a Freedom-bacore tuna salad, served on a bed of baby Freedom-pinach.

http://www.zompist.com/arabic.html

Comment #18: cycles  on  09/21  at  09:34 PM

Insofar as Arab-Americans, like many ethnic groups who have immigrated to America over the last century and have descendents here, end up in academic positions of producing textbooks, they are Christian. But I’m sure their voices are just one of many among the more numberous English-Scottish-Irish-German-Dutch-Latino-African Americans that have such jobs.

Weirdly, the Crusades are one of those parts of history that everyone talks about but no one actually knows anything about, because they don’t teach medieval history in high school. I cannot possibly imagine that Tucker Carlson would have anything worthwhile to say on the subject. Plus, too much scrutiny and study of the Crusades would force the right wing fundamentalists to acknowledge the existence of Christians in the Middle East who had no interest in being their pawns (or targets) in their power games in the 11th and 12th century and certainly have no interest in that now.

Comment #19: Tyro  on  09/21  at  09:40 PM

I call algebra ‘Freedom Math’.

Comment #20: JohnL  on  09/21  at  09:47 PM

I’m so glad Obama is more concerned with outreach to this community than with delivering good policy to his supporters.

Comment #21: Punditus Maximus  on  09/21  at  09:51 PM

I regularly (every three semesters) teach a course on classical Arabic and Islamic culture. One of the fun parts is the Crusades, as there is ample literature to show that a) the motivations were entirely venal, b) the Muslims outclassed the Crusaders in every single way, c) whereas the Muslims fought and negotiated with honor throughout the conflict, the Crusaders committed every atrocity they could think of, d) returning Crusaders brought back with them Eastern ways, such as bathing, that vastly improved European society, and e) those new ways were widely viewed as Satanic and threatening by the entrenched feudal power structure. Students find it absolutely fascinating, but of course these are college kids taking an elective class, so it’s a bit of a self-selecting group.

Today, we went over this most excellent article in the NYT about an Afghan woman member of parliament who had to dress her daughter up as a boy to maintain legitimacy, Fatima Mernissi’s work on the veil and the male elite, and the “Women” sura of the Qur’an, wherein women are given half the inheritance rights of men. It was one of those greatly satisfying moments in teaching when my two conservative born-again students both figured out on their own that early Islam was in fact an enormous step forward in women’s rights in its day, and that the dreadful treatment of the Afghan woman in the above article (seriously, read it) ran exactly counter to the letter and spirit of the Qur’an.

Comment #22: felagund  on  09/21  at  09:52 PM

“Now served in the Senate cafeteria: Freedom-falfa sprouts atop a Freedom-bacore tuna salad, served on a bed of baby Freedom-pinach.”

Sprouts?  Fish?  Salad? 

You’re not from around here, I can see.

Real Americans™ EAT MEAT!  Meat from furry, warm-blooded, vertebrate mammals just like we are!  Cows and pigs mostly, but any sort of game meat is good too.  Extra points if you hunted it down and killed and skinned it yourself.

Chicken is just okay, but really way down the list.

So if you said: “Now served in the Senate cafeteria: Freedom Steaks, Freedom Chops, and Freedom Ribs, garnished with the tiniest amount of some colorful Freedom Vegetable that you ignore, washed down with Real American Budweiser!”, that’d be okay…

Comment #23: MikeEss  on  09/21  at  10:05 PM

During the Crusades, when Christian crusaders killed thousands of Jews on the way to the Middle East, attacked part of France to kill ‘heretics’, invaded old Prussia and other parts of northern Europe to kill pagans, invaded Russia and other parts of eastern Europe to kill Orthodox christians that was all because of the Muslims. I’m not sure quite how, but it must have been their fault.

Comment #24: JohnL  on  09/21  at  10:11 PM

The whole East vs. West propaganda machine ha been cranking since the Persian War, earlier if you want to throw in Troy. It’s kind of funny to see the same exaggerations leveled against Xerxes get rolled into modern beliefs about Islam.

I call algebra ‘Freedom Math’.


as opposed to Calculus which has all those limits

Comment #25: scrumby  on  09/21  at  10:24 PM

Can these freaks get any dumber?  Sadly, that question will get answered next week.

Comment #26: Albert Cirrus  on  09/21  at  10:32 PM

washed down with Real American Budweiser!”

Except that they’re owned by a Belgium company now, right? So even they’re not truly American anymore.

Comment #27: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  09/21  at  10:35 PM

“Except that they’re owned by a Belgium company now, right? So even they’re not truly American anymore.”

That’s just a dirty lie put out by Nobama and Saul Alinsky!...

Comment #28: MikeEss  on  09/21  at  10:40 PM

Except that they’re owned by a Belgium company now, right? So even they’re not truly American anymore.

There’s nothing more authentically American than outsourcing.

Comment #29: Toitle  on  09/21  at  10:50 PM

During the Crusades, when Christian crusaders killed thousands of Jews on the way to the Middle East, attacked part of France to kill ‘heretics’, invaded old Prussia and other parts of northern Europe to kill pagans, invaded Russia and other parts of eastern Europe to kill Orthodox christians that was all because of the Muslims. I’m not sure quite how, but it must have been their fault.

Come now, that’s a bit too harsh.  The Fourth Crusade totally intended to take Jerusalem - it’s not their fault their Venetian taxi-drivers dropped them off in the wrong part of the Med.  Constantinople looks a hell of a lot like Jerusalem anyhow(*) - it was an honest mistake.

(*) Well, apart from the Bosphorus and the goddamned Black Sea and Jerusalem being an inland city - they were knights, not navigators!

Comment #30: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/21  at  10:56 PM

And that we should go back to using Roman Numerals, not these crazy Islamic numerals we’ve had foisted on us by pointy headed Pro-Islamist mathematicians.

Arabic numerals were originally developed by Indian mathematicians, but that’s not important right now…

Comment #31: Linnaeus  on  09/21  at  11:06 PM

And the Pope is 100% correct: The Nazis and the atheists both wish to ABOLISH FAITH….

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11332515


shermer is a sack of sh*t who is going to be flushed down the toilet of the UNIVERSE!


the only crap you will ever need from this so-called “philosopher” called massimo pigliucci

http://chem.tufts.edu/science/pigliucci/rationally-speaking/RS2001-091.htm

“The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.”


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1iy39_depeche-mode-john-the-revelator_music


JOHN THE REVELATOR!
_____________________

 


HOW TO FLUSH AN ATHEIST… CLICK!


hawking is WRONG

science cannot explain NOTHING!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMRJJcfEXls&

 

 

FAIR AND BALANCED!

 

http://media.depechemode.com/micro_sites/remasters/gr/wallpaper/violator_8_640.jpg

 

____________________________________

NO GODS AND NO POLITICS WITH THESE LITTLE IDIOTS!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyEISfS15g4&feature=player_embedded

 

plush safe he think


http://www.christies.com/lotfinderimages/D14781/d1478164x.jpg


http://vimeo.com/13704095


but with recent revelations about James Randi, I think he likes DICKS!


____________________

THE SECOND COMING!

THE END OF ATHEISM

FOLLOW THE WHITE RABBIT…
...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Smwrw4sNCxE
____________________________________________

THE B**BQUAKE - 911

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeblvLoVJCA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpZZ2PPBzP8&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvSljPf9on4&feature=related

you are going to pay the price for this….

THE RUBBER DUCKY OF PSEUDOSCIENCE III - JAMES RANDI

 

http://daddytypes.com/archive/hofman_rubber_duckie.jpg

there is a lot of sh*t to flush!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg2AezJo8aQ

THE HEAD OF THE INFIDEL!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojR-XRt4rrA

Is America burning yet?

Maybe we need some more…

we use the DIVINE against the ESTABLISHMENT… you?

we do better DEMOLITIONS than you, savage…

RENOUNCE YOUR ATHEISM AND JOIN THE SOCIALIST FAITH!

let them know if the MDC continues more people will die…

the WORLD TRADE CENTER PROPHECY - THE DANCE OF DEATH

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0Hez25fFrg

FLUSH ATHEISM!

Actually it is a ROYAL FLUSH!!!

Let me show you how ATHEISTS were partially responsible for 911

These ATHEISTS NEED TO BE ON THE TERRORIST WATCH LIST!

You don’t even have SCIENCE on your side…

You’re a perfect example of when PHILOSOPHY becomes an ENEMY OF LIFE…

http://stephenlaw.blogspot.com/2010/06/playing-mystery-card.html

not quite samantha with her *supernatural spit*, eh?

this isn’t one of your little WORD GAMES…

blasphemy is a DEATH SENTENCE

you people actually BELIEVE the BS you preach!

GOD 1 - atheists 0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQcNiD0Z3MU

Atheists,

you are ENEMIES OF GOD AND ARE GOING TO BE ANNIHILATED…

Repent and turn to God or be destroyed…

YOU HAVE NO CHOICE…

my interpretation of the STATUE FIRE… it symbolizes the SPIRITUAL DEATH of atheism…

http://www.salon.com/news/2010/06/15/us_lightning_strikes_jesus_statue

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/6/16/1276680110544/The-King-of-Kings-statue—005.jpg

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2010-06/54332292.jpg

http://friendlyatheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/butterjesus-1.jpg

PRINCESS DI IS WEARING A NEW DRESS!

http://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/speechesandarticles/a_speech_by_hrh_the_prince_of_wales_titled_islam_and_the_env_252516346.html
______________________________
http://skepticblog.org/2010/04/06/would-i-ever-pray-for-a-miracle/

Shermer, I WANT TO SEE YOU BEG FOR A MIRACLE…
___________________
we do like your music Lady Gaga, but…

The B**BQUAKE - 911

Let me show you the FATE OF TRAITORS…

http://www.loiterink.com/photos/products/182_3424_500x500.jpg

they are incapable of telling the difference between SCIENTIFIC *FACT* AND
RELIGIOUS AND PHILOSOPHICAL *TRUTH*... FATAL ERROR!

they also preach a *VALUE FREE SCIENCE* called *POSITIVISM* that ignores the
inequalities of wealth and power in capitalist civilization…

for a sample taste of PZ Myers’ GARBAGE…

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/06/sunday_sacrilege_imagine_no_he.php

HIJACKING IN PROGRESS!!!

http://hawaiiwebgroup.com/maui-design/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/website-hijacking.jpg

HIJACKING IN PROGRESS!!!

how can these HEADLESS IDIOTS BET AGAINST GOD!!!
________________________________________
what happens when you LOSE Pascal’s Wager…

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/pascals-wager.htm
____________
you FIGHT PAPER MONSTERS…


THE BOOBQUAKE - 911!

http://dissidentphilosophy.lifediscussion.net/philosophy-f1/the-boobquake-911-t1310.htm

Comment #32: royreb7  on  09/21  at  11:19 PM

“European coalitions repeatedly invaded Muslim lands in order to conquer the Holy Land”.

Nah. Don’t fight ignorance with ignorance.  The Levant was a “Muslim land” in the same sense that the US is a “Christian” land - only through disposessing and/or converting the local inhabitants.  And at the time of the first crusades the population of the Levant was probably still majority (Orthodox) Christian, or at least between the Jewish and Orthodox Christian populations Muslims were no more than a plurality.  Of course the irony is that the crusades resulted in the Holy Land becoming far more “Muslim” by the end of the whole debacle than they had been at the beginning.

Comment #33: vanya6724  on  09/21  at  11:36 PM

Scrumby at 25, ftw!

Comment #34: alysia  on  09/21  at  11:45 PM

Wow, I thought we banned him.

Comment #35: Antigone  on  09/21  at  11:48 PM

Hah. I worked in the textbook industry for several years. And while even it’s being outsourced—including the writing—like everything else, it’s been outsourced to China, not the Middle East.

Comment #36: hp  on  09/21  at  11:58 PM

”there’s no reason to believe that the 9/11 terrorists were yelling, ”Remember 1099!””

Of course not, they use a different calendar smile

Comment #37: jefft452  on  09/22  at  12:14 AM

There’s nothing more authentically American than outsourcing.

When you’re right, you’re right.

Comment #38: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  09/22  at  12:23 AM

”No, they didn’t.
The truth is that it’s extremely complicated…”

The Christians defiantly started it,
WHY they started it may be complicated,
(and compared to, for example, the origins of the Great War, not even that)
But as it says in the original post, If the Franks and Normans decided to stay home doing their laundry, they wouldn’t have had to rape and pillage their way across the known world and wouldn’t have had to sack a single town.  The Saracens living in the towns being sacked didn’t have that option

Comment #39: jefft452  on  09/22  at  12:29 AM

Someone should make a spoof site, claiming algebra is a Muslim plot, and claim it should be renamed “Formula Arithmetic.”
Comment #3: James  on  09/21  at  04:37 PM

And that spoof site could be called “Conservapedia.”

Comment #40: Cris  on  09/22  at  12:31 AM

The great struggle of the late-20th century outside of the west was the struggle to turn back colonialism. As a consequence, there’s a longstanding habit of (wrongly) looking at the Crusades through an anti-colonial lens. These days, we have a bunch of right wingers who (wrongly) see our latest wars against terrorism and sideshows in Iraq as a grand clash of civilizations and are insist on rethinking the Crusades in the exact same way. They’re not historians. For the most part, they’re rank ignoramuses, so I really don’t think their take on the Crusades is worth taking seriously. Instead of getting bogged down trying to educate right-wingers on the Crusades (they’ll never listen, and they’re not the sort into being educated), it’s best to point out that they’re simply deluding themselves about everything, included the Crusades, to fulfill what is the right-wing Fantasy Ideology.

Comment #41: Tyro  on  09/22  at  12:38 AM

The real history of the crusades is pretty complicated and hard to pin down. The interesting part (to me) is how lots of people living on the border between christian and Islamic “worlds” managed to get along pretty peaceably for pretty long stretches. Which is the kind of history that fundies don’t want people to learn, because it suggests that most human conflicts, even those that involve religion, aren’t really that intractable.

Also, I’m not sure if Royreb7 @ 32 is a spambot but I think probably yes.

Comment #42: HonestB  on  09/22  at  12:44 AM

What do you expect from the exact same people who want to claim that the Civil War was fought over “states’ rights” and had nothing whatsoever to do with slavery and in fact to bring up slavery is just icky? 

And the CW was waaaay more recent than the Crusades.

Comment #43: Gone2Ground  on  09/22  at  12:47 AM

Even after the madness that was the buildup to the Iraq war, it’s still hard to get a handle on how people can get wound up about a given bullshit topic (weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, ACORN, the Muslim infiltration of high school textbooks) when if you asked them about it three months earlier you’d have gotten a blank stare.  I guess you can blame it on the professional cage-rattlers on Fox and the cage-rattler-legitimizers on the other 24-hour news channels.  Still, you’d think it would be easy for people to understand that a controversy has been manufactured out of whole cloth if you can’t even point to a Reichstag fire or Gulf of Tonkin type incident to explain why people care about it all of a sudden.  On the other hand, I guess being pissed off is all some people have so maybe it’s just nice to be given a reason.

Comment #44: ryang  on  09/22  at  12:47 AM

Regarding “royreb7’s” posting (#32): Shall we invoke Poe’s Law?

Comment #45: JakobFabian01  on  09/22  at  12:50 AM

“On the other hand, I guess being pissed off is all some people have so maybe it’s just nice to be given a reason.”

Being pissed off, owning guns, belonging to some talibanical christianist church, fetishising Confederate flags, driving huge pickups and SUVs, rejecting all forms of education, creating and forwarding bigoted emails, and voting for Republicans under any and all circumstances…even when they call themselves Libertarians or Teabaggers…

Comment #46: MikeEss  on  09/22  at  01:01 AM

One of the fun parts is the Crusades, as there is ample literature to show that a) the motivations were entirely venal, b) the Muslims outclassed the Crusaders in every single way, c) whereas the Muslims fought and negotiated with honor throughout the conflict, the Crusaders committed every atrocity they could think of, d) returning Crusaders brought back with them Eastern ways, such as bathing, that vastly improved European society, and e) those new ways were widely viewed as Satanic and threatening by the entrenched feudal power structure.

We have always been at war with Eastasia.

The Islamic world had mathematics and medicine while Europeans were shivering behind castle walls and dying of poor hygiene before age 40.  Since then much of the Middle East’s progress and civilization has fallen prey to invasion, colonialism, constant warfare, corrupt despotism and religious fundamentalism, all things which are near and dear to the Wingnut heart—as long as they’re done in the name of Christianity.

Comment #47: Sour Kraut  on  09/22  at  01:25 AM

[quoting Amanda]And the truth is that Christians started it.
No, they didn’t.
The truth is that it’s extremely complicated, and you’re not going to accurately summarize what happened in one book, let alone one blog post, and never mind about one sentence.
Comment #14: Alkaloid on 09/21 at 04:15 PM

Well, I’ve read more than one book—took a class focused on the Crusades for a semester actually—and “the Christians started it” is more true than these kinds of simplifications usually are. Sure, they didn’t “start” conflicts between the peoples adhering to the respective faiths, not by a long shot. But in at the end of the eleventh century, the First Crusade—which was by far the most successful, in terms of the stated goals of this orchestrated (if much out-of-control) invasion as well as the less openly stated ones—fell on the Levant like a bolt from the blue, as far as the various Muslim-ruled peoples there were concerned. The invaders, called collectively “Ferengi” which was Arabic for “Franks” (they were largely French but also German and Italian) appeared suddenly from regions these particular Islamic regimes had scarcely heard of, let alone troubled themselves. They massacred cities, especially Jerusalem. They carved out territories that were large by the prevailing standards of the region at the time, and vast in comparison to the sorts of temporary gains later Crusaders would accomplish (except for the 4th Crusade, mentioned by PiatoR above, which took its empire from other Christians). They were able to do this in part because they were a complete surprise to the peoples of the region.

And this vast and sudden invasion was indeed planned, or at any rate set in motion, by particular Christians. Specifically, the Emperor of Constantinople appealed to the Pope for military aid in fighting off the Turks on his borders in Anatolia. Two successive Popes turned this request into a call for a military pilgrimage of conquest, not for Anatolia but for the Holy Land. And aside from the ostensible purposes—freeing up access to the holy places for Christian pilgrims, and gaining control of said places especially in Jerusalem—it is clear these Popes also intended to siphon off a portion of the restless, quarrelsome knightly classes to gain, if not actual peace, less war in Europe. It was part of an ongoing project by the Popes and Church in general to channel the warlike energies of the nobility away from ongoing internecine strife in a variety of ways. Had the Popes not proposed the Crusades, it is highly unlikely that more than a fraction, if any, of these adventurers would have shown up in the Eastern Med, having plenty of more or less profitable shenanigans to get up to closer to their respective homes. Which was exactly the problem the Popes hoped to solve by sending them off to the East. If they freed the Holy Lands and won vast realms for the Church and Her Savior, so much the better.

As for the Byzantine Emperors, they had cause to regret their call for help soon enough, and to regret it bitterly indeed a century or so later when the Fourth Crusade made their agreement with the Venetians.

But the whole mess is a lot more like the US invasion of Iraq than like say, WWI, in terms of having a definite and particular cause, specifically a plan of particular leaders. The repercussions of these plans led to unintended results as they generally do; nobody, for instance, anticipated the sheer mass of the first Crusade. But while conflict between Muslim and Christian regimes had been endemic since Mohammed’s death, if not before, and the frontlines of this generic conflict reached even to Western Europe, these particular Christians were suddenly fighting particular Muslims they never would have met (except perhaps as merchants, or pilgrims of a more conventional kind) were it not for the Emperor’s appeal and the Popes’ response. And while many centuries later distant successors of these particular Muslim peoples would indeed be attempting to take the city of Vienna (having already subjugated the Balkans and Hungary) on the whole, Western Europeans only had to worry about fighting Muslims when they chose to venture East or South, except for the Spaniards—who had totally triumphed against the Moors in Iberia by Columbus’s time and were in the ascendent there long before that.

Comment #48: Mark Foxwell  on  09/22  at  02:04 AM

The Islamic world had mathematics and medicine while Europeans were shivering behind castle walls and dying of poor hygiene before age 40.

Ever seen the movie Life of Bryan? There’s that part where the rebels say “What have the Romans done for us? Nothing” and then that guys says “well, there was the aqueduct…”  Each culture ads its bit to the pot; each golden age passes on a little more glory and we are all more interconnected that colonialism would have you think.

Comment #49: scrumby  on  09/22  at  02:59 AM

The Islamic world had mathematics and medicine while Europeans were shivering behind castle walls and dying of poor hygiene before age 40.  Since then much of the Middle East’s progress and civilization has fallen prey to invasion, colonialism, constant warfare, corrupt despotism and religious fundamentalism, all things which are near and dear to the Wingnut heart

Even at the height of Arab civilization, the majority still lived in squalor, ignorance, and fear.  When you’re talking about the decline of an ancient civilization, you’re talking about the decline of elites.  Before the Industrial Revolution, the masses all died at 40.  And much of the Middle East’s decline can be blamed on the Ottoman Empire, which also had its heyday.  No empire lasts forever, and it’s not always the fault of conquest or colonialism.  Sometimes (or usually) the latter two are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.

Well, I’ve read more than one book—took a class focused on the Crusades for a semester actually—and “the Christians started it” is more true than these kinds of simplifications usually are.

When talking about history, saying “Well, they started it” is always reductive and absurd.  You could also make the argument that Muslims “started” it by conquering Zoroastrian and Christian land in the first place.  It’s not like the Arab conquest resulted in Christians’ converting by their own free will.  However more tolerant of other religions medieval Muslims were, it was deeply unpleasant to remain Christian in the aftermath.

If you want to lay the blame on someone, I blame Constantine I for promoting Christianity as a state religion and ultimately making paganism illegal.  What a dick.

Comment #50: keshmeshi  on  09/22  at  03:54 AM

Ahh royreb aka Mabus, that poor boy really has nothing better to do than make new accounts every day to spam atheist blogs, or any blog he thinks had atheist tendencies. Same with Facebook. He seriously has to be off his meds (said as a member of the med-taking community myself).

“Constantine I, what a dick” should be the tagline for every class or publication on the Crusades. Seriously.

Comment #51: TheRealistMom  on  09/22  at  07:33 AM

Interesting and fun fact, one of the first historians to argue that the Crusades were a forerunner of the European colonialism as practiced latter was an Israeli Jew named Joshua Prawer in his book The Crusaders’ Kingdom: European Colonialism in the Middle Ages, originally published in 1972. Joshua Prawer was very much also a Zionist and devotes a considerable amount of time in his book to Jews living under Crusader rule as colonial victims. Its an interesting book, I’d recommend it.

  Personally, I’m not entirely convinced about this. Conquest was fact of life back then. Before the Crusades, the Muslims conquered two sophisticated Empires, the Christian Byzantine Empire and the Zoroastrian Persian Empire plus Christian Visigothic Kingdom of Spain. The Crusaders saw themselves as trying to liberate land that should be Christian. Trying to determining when a war is just or not is tricky business. If the Crusades were colonial, wouldn’t that make the Muslim invasions of the Byzantine Empire, the Persian Empire, and Visigothic Spain colonial? Was the Reconquista a war of liberation or of colonial conquest? What about the efforts of the Europeans to counter the Ottoman Empires thrust into Europe?

Comment #52: Lee  on  09/22  at  08:15 AM

@51
As I study history more and more, I too get really frustrated with people oversimplifying events in history to place the blame on someone and make a point. The likelihood of anyone person or group of people bearing the absolute blame for any event in history is infinitesimally small when you look at it in the context of world events.

Comment #53: Leah Jaclyn  on  09/22  at  08:29 AM

The Crusades were chosen wars that had definite triggers that allowed for their justification.  Islam was expanding, it was new and foreign, and it wasn’t going to peacefully coexist with the Christian empires that were expanding and pretty much new as well.  There was a lot of sorting out to be done, and a lot of the actors did so with armies.  The nature of both groups as expansive religious states suggests that war was inevitable, just as every war makes sense when looked at in terms of ideologies and resources.

The Iraq/Afghan invasions are similar in that even the many who supported them often saw through the “WMD” and Al Qaeda bullshit and just saw an opportunity to overthrow some reprehensible regimes and put in Our People who believe in Our Values.  It helps that Peak Oil is the elephant in the room and something needed to be done to secure the supply of gas and oil, but no one wants to acknowledge that “Mission Accomplished” referred to a corporate victory rather than a military or cultural one.

But yeah, yeah, never mind the Enrons and BPs: 3000 Americans! Cordoba! Osama! Kenyan Muslim! Et cetera!

Comment #54: 3letterjon  on  09/22  at  08:52 AM

Way to set the bias, Fox interviewer.  What a horrible intro and first question.  “Is this a case of freedom of religion. . .”  What?  What does freedom of religion have to do with a damn textbook?  I think that’s the problem right there, guys.  They think their religion can and should infect everything they do.

“Why is the board of education in Texas worried about this pro-Islam, anti-Christian content?”  Again I say, “What?” pro-Islam?  And what kind of question is that?  It takes for granted that this is true, without requiring Tucker to explain exactly what the beef is.  Foundation, lady.  It’s important.

I could go on, but I couldn’t take any more of the stupid than that.

Comment #55: speedbudget  on  09/22  at  09:11 AM

You could also make the argument that Muslims “started” it by conquering Zoroastrian and Christian land in the first place

It wasn’t so much the Arabs who were a problem as the new arrival of the Seljuk Turks. By the mid-1000s, the Muslim Arabs and the Byzantines had achieved a certain detente after 350 years of wars that really threatened the very existence of Christendom. The holy land at that point served as a buffer zone where Jerusalem was ruled by Muslims but was a tribute state to the Byzantine Emperor. The arrival of the Seljuk Turks resulted in the Byzantine army being wiped out in the late 1000s and the loss of Anatolia as well as the capture of Jerusalem and the holy land by the Turks, who were no longer so accommodating when it came to pilgrimage routes. The First Crusade turned back the Turks from directly threatening Constantinople and allowed the empire to regain part of Anatolia. By this time, the Fatimids had captured Jerusalem from the Turks and the Crusaders captured it from them. I think for the Muslims, this must have been very earthshaking: they were sort of used to the idea of ongoing fights over territory between them and their Byzantine and Armenian neighbors, but the idea of a bunch of people from the other side of the Mediterranean with a totally alien culture landing in the Levant and setting up their own kingdoms was totally outside of their concept of reality. I guess the closest comparison to the Crusaders could be the Mongols, just on a smaller scale.

I did earlier make argument against facile historical analogies to present situations, but I will violate that to compare the Crusaders states to Iraq: the Franks got the crazy idea to establish a tiny beach head in the middle east which was completely unsustainable and a bit of a distraction from the original goal. “We are going to remake the middle east” by invading sounds a bit crazy when you look on a map and see how small Iraq and the coastal Levant are compared to the rest of the middle east and the Muslim world. How does one even expect to hold on to that? I suppose the Crusaders had the excuse of being unfamiliar with the limits of logistics. What was Bush’s excuse?

Comment #56: Tyro  on  09/22  at  09:21 AM

Off-topic, but am I the only person who gets Tucker Carlson confused with Tucker Max? Are they the same person?

Comment #57: cifweltr  on  09/22  at  10:13 AM

@57: “the Franks got the crazy idea to establish a tiny beach head”—the Kingdom of Jerusalem, the principality of Antioch, and the counties of Edessa and Tripoli together were not so ‘tiny’, and the kingdom of J. lasted till 1291; you’re somewhat more accurate in the comparison to “green zone” occupation, however—though the Crusader presence was not unlike that of local Turkish and Arab strongmen (Baghdad’s authority in the region was mostly spiritual and symbolic)

“Franks” btw was the Arabs’ (and therefore also the Turks’) name for Latin (i.e., Church of Rome) Christian pilgrims and invaders, who spoke mostly (very Norman) French or a pidgin version of French (which is where the term Lingua Franca comes from). They took it from history in an absence of any better terms (since there were Greek, Armenian, Coptic, and other Christians already in their midst) The original Franks—the Germanic tribe of the early Middle Ages, of Clovis and Charlemagne, recorded in Arabic histories—were of course long gone.

“unfamiliar with the limits of logistics”—hardly, given the Italian commercial interests involved(*), and all the complications of negotiating with local Turkish and Arab strongmen (Islamic political fragmentation is what allowed the Crusaders any success at all), and keeping all the castles stocked and ready

(*) all three had been involved in raiding N. African ports all through the 11th c., in order to open them up to trade on terms favorable to Italian trading companies; they did so with papal blessing… a foretaste of the major crusade movements, which were always officially papal projects

All this nuance of course is lost on idiots like Tucker, who should know better (and actually might, which is worse)

Comment #58: wapsie  on  09/22  at  10:22 AM

“all three” means the early capitalist centers of Venice, Genoa, and Amalfi—- need moar coffee

Comment #59: wapsie  on  09/22  at  10:23 AM

What’s amazing is at just during the height of crusading (=militarized pilgrimage) ideal in Latin Christendom, all of the best science, philosophy, mathematics, and astronomy in the Greek tradition as extended and elaborated in Arabic was being translated into Latin by Muslim, Christian, and Jewish scholars working in peaceful cooperation in Toledo and in Sicily. So the medievals’ relationship with the Islamic world was rather complicated. The Arabic authors translated in those place became (besides Aristotle) the foundation of university learning through the sixteenth century.

The Kurdish general Saladin throughly routed a crusading army in 1187, which marked the beginning of the end of the crusader states. Yet he was regarded in the Latin West as a legendary and heroic figure, the portrait of martial valor and wise leadership.

Comment #60: wapsie  on  09/22  at  10:35 AM

The Sumerians started it… or, at least, they wrote it down first.

As far as I’m concerned the entirety of the Byzantine-Arab wars - including the Crusades - was intramural. One moronic middle-eastern megafaith against another. And nobody who self-identifies as “Christian” gets to talk about culture wars with Levantine beliefs. They’ve already forfeited that war.

Comment #61: Sarcastro  on  09/22  at  11:01 AM

Heh, when I worked in the textbook industry in NYC, it was for a Jewish-owned family company. We did a ton of books on Arabic history, though; mathematicians, philosophers, political rulers. And of course we covered the Crusades. And the history of the modern Jewish state, all while striving to be as accurate and non-ideological as possible.

After 9/11, we couldn’t sell *enough* of those; middle school librarians and teachers, oddly enough, wanted to help their kids put Islam and the middle east in context.  And also, it was interesting stuff that regular textbooks didn’t cover.

And yes, we often got angry hatemail from Christian AND Jewish fundamentalists.

Comment #62: emjaybee  on  09/22  at  11:11 AM

i thought there really are only two religions in the world:  abrahamic (mainly judaism, christianity, islam, and mormon) and vedic (mainly hindu and buddhism).

no, taoism and confucianism aren’t really religions, and bad hygiene (aka wicca) is just that.

Comment #63: cj  on  09/22  at  11:11 AM

Even at the height of Arab civilization, the majority still lived in squalor, ignorance, and fear.  When you’re talking about the decline of an ancient civilization, you’re talking about the decline of elites.  Before the Industrial Revolution, the masses all died at 40.  And much of the Middle East’s decline can be blamed on the Ottoman Empire, which also had its heyday.  No empire lasts forever, and it’s not always the fault of conquest or colonialism.  Sometimes (or usually) the latter two are a symptom of the problem, not the cause.

Oh, I’m oversimplifying, of course.  Arab rulers were no basket of puppies and their lands carried on history’s long tradition of oppression of the impoverished masses.  It’s just silly to see wingnuts claiming the moral high ground by hinting we need to launch a new Crusade for the honor of Christendom when they really just hate Muslims and want to see them die in large numbers.

Comment #64: Sour Kraut  on  09/22  at  11:17 AM

Man, if you think the wingnuts are mad now, wait till they get to the chapter on the Inquisition.  That’ll really make them flip their shit.

Comment #65: Zifnab25  on  09/22  at  11:23 AM

Zifnab, because they’ll be upset there isn’t an American inquisition going on right now?

Comment #66: JohnL  on  09/22  at  11:45 AM

“no, taoism and confucianism aren’t really religions…”

Whether they meet some arbitrary definition of religion or not, for most intents and purposes they can be considered religions.  They fill exactly the same social niches that other “major” religions typically occupy. 

After all, what is a religion anyway?  It’s a philosophy on steroids, that typically ends up causing death and destruction, which its followers believe is sanctioned and therefore justified…

BTW, I’ve heard it argued that Buddhism isn’t a religion either, but I doubt that would convince very many people…

“Man, if you think the wingnuts are mad now, wait till they get to the chapter on the Inquisition.  That’ll really make them flip their shit.”

Just think of the possible uses of such a powerful tool!  Those dirty liberal hippies would really be scared then!...

Comment #67: MikeEss  on  09/22  at  11:54 AM

The likelihood of anyone person or group of people bearing the absolute blame for any event in history is infinitesimally small when you look at it in the context of world events.

Nevertheless, I still blame W and PNAC for the invasions of iraq and Afghanistan and the shitload of death we have dealt there, both to our own country and to theirs!

Comment #68: KMTBERRY  on  09/22  at  12:24 PM

@Comment #68: MikeEss on 09/22 at 09:54 AM

“no, taoism and confucianism aren’t really religions…”

Whether they meet some arbitrary definition of religion or not, for most intents and purposes they can be considered religions.  They fill exactly the same social niches that other “major” religions typically occupy. 

After all, what is a religion anyway?  It’s a philosophy on steroids, that typically ends up causing death and destruction, which its followers believe is sanctioned and therefore justified…

If you ever need a good laff, try to pin down a definition of “religion”, or better yet try to prove that some group, belief or activity is or is not a religion. You’ll quickly find that the word “religion”, with its many definitions, allows you to prove just about anything.

In general, I think your sociological view (does it look, sound and act like a “religion”?) is the most useful one.

Comment #69: atheist  on  09/22  at  12:31 PM

Seconding Alkaloid @14.  The crusades were part of a larger flux and flow in history not “Christians went and killed babies of heathens in Judea.”  Seriously.

Comment #70: helen w. h.  on  09/22  at  12:41 PM

I’m with KMTBERRY, except I would describe Bush Jr. as a useful idiot, a tool, a puppet, with the real master-of-death being “Big” Dick Cheney.

This is not to excuse Bush Jr., who no one could accuse of having more than a smidgen of compassion (see his infamous remarks about Karla Faye Tucker’s execution - ironically given to a seemingly appalled Tucker Carlson interviewing Bush).  He is a craven little self-righteous entitled prick with delusions of grandiosity who is walking proof of the existence of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

But Cheney is an order of magnitude more evil.  He could easily have been the murderous head of some heinous regime responsible for millions of deaths (instead of hundreds of thousands) if he’d been born in Iraq, North Korea, China, Russia, Germany.  A world-class dictator-in-waiting who had to work through the (slightly) stifling US Government instead of being able to really unleash the beast.  He could have been America’s Pol Pot…

Comment #71: MikeEss  on  09/22  at  12:42 PM

as opposed to Calculus which has all those limits

I nominate scrumby @ 25 for the math-geek joke/pun of the day award.

Comment #72: helen w. h.  on  09/22  at  12:47 PM

Man, if you think the wingnuts are mad now, wait till they get to the chapter on the Inquisition.  That’ll really make them flip their shit.

Nah, they just use that to show why Catholics aren’t really Christians.

Comment #73: hp  on  09/22  at  12:50 PM

Off-topic, but am I the only person who gets Tucker Carlson confused with Tucker Max? Are they the same person?

One wears a bowtie. The other has a book where he talks about all the ways he’s abused women.

Both are asshats though.

Comment #74: BlackBloc  on  09/22  at  01:13 PM

Right on, MikeEss. Cheney, Saddam Hussein, Putin, Berlusconi, same asshole personality type just shaped by different cultures and circumstances.

Comment #75: Ben D.  on  09/22  at  01:19 PM

Just go back and view the tapes from
02 and 03 where Cheney tkalks about how Saddam Hussein had rape rooms, gassed his political opponents, held absolute power, and invaded his neighbors. There’s a sense of envy or at least leering curiousity in the tone of his voice.

Comment #76: Ben D.  on  09/22  at  01:26 PM

Yeah, remember the good old days when Tucker Carlson was posing as an intelligent, nice-guy Republican? When even he was disturbed by W’s arrogance? Now, of course, like all the other Republican shills, he’s realized the money is in promoting crazy. Thus he jumped onto this Muslims-invading-your-textbooks!!!!! nonsense and will attempt to ride it to conservative media heaven.

How many times have we watched this crap unfold in the same way? Is this what “news” is going to be from now on—every wingnut bottom feeder jumping on whatever lunacy is dreamed up by the e-mail forwarders of America and using Fox News to turn it into a national controversy?

Comment #77: sophronia  on  09/22  at  01:46 PM

Personally my “favorite” wingnut revisionist trope is when they somehow manage to blame Muslims for plantation slavery in North and South America. Like Arab traders somehow hypnotized good, Christian Europeans into participating in chattel slavery which they NEVER would have done on their own!

Not that the Arab states didn’t have slaves, but their slavery was of the Greco-Roman type which is an entirely different and comparatively less brutal system than New World plantation slavery.

Comment #78: Ben D.  on  09/22  at  02:05 PM

“Man, if you think the wingnuts are mad now, wait till they get to the chapter on the Inquisition.  That’ll really make them flip their shit.”

Zifnab, because they’ll be upset there isn’t an American inquisition going on right now?

Are you kidding? There totally is! Against those darling patriotic Tea <strike>Baggers</strike> Partiers! It’s all part and parcel of the liebrul agenda* along with the socialist-fascist internment camps and the abortions (white women get in free!) and the having to press 1 for English… Those things are all basically the same as the Inquisition! But in this version the white conservative is the jew of liberal fascism and/or the witch of liberal Catholicism…?

(Okay, too early in the morning for this. I can’t even write anything more ridiculous than the reality of what the Baggers believe.)

*feel free to confuse this with the gay agenda, it’s all basically the same. Organic food and gay orgies everywhere.

Comment #79: Bagelsan  on  09/22  at  02:07 PM

no, taoism and confucianism aren’t really religions.

Uh, taoism as a philosophical approach to life like confucianism isn’t to be confused with traditional Chinese religious beliefs in the Jade Emperor and The Mandate of Heaven, and you will find taoist temples in China, Taiwan, etc.

Also, Shintoism is a religion overlooked as well, the divine ancestry of the Japanese emperors was part and parcel of the militarists in the Japanese Army and Navy campaign to make Japan a superior power through conquest and exploitation of the countries around them.

Comment #80: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/22  at  02:32 PM

bad hygiene (aka wicca)

???? huh? ?????

I have some wiccan friends and their hygiene habits seem to be about the same as everyone else’s. They shower daily, brush their teeth, etc…

Or was that supposed to mean something figurative?  If so, I can’t figure out what.

Comment #81: CalliopeJane  on  09/22  at  03:00 PM

It basically just meant the same as “dirty hippies ha ha lol” so far as I can tell… Very reductive comment in general

Comment #82: quercus  on  09/22  at  03:08 PM

I can’t say I am an expert by any stretch, I have a colleague here who studied the crusades, in fact is an expert on the knights templar and is a scary fundamentalist catholic (which until I knew him, didn’t even know existed and I am Catholic as well.)  More the most part he recognizes religion as a real reason had very little to do with the later crusades.  The very first one was probably a religion-based drive to retake the holy land which is highly stupid but was done because the wealthy nobles of western Europe had nothing better to do.  The later ones are almost solely land grabs or pillages under the guise of religion. 

More often than not you’ll find people using religion to cover their own pathetic greed, nationalism, or sociopath behavior.  This is just a further extension of that, an attempt to pull Christianity as a whole into their worldview and subjugate it for their personal ends.

Comment #83: Xeranar  on  09/22  at  03:36 PM

two more words we have to give up if we’re going to abjure everything from Islam:

algorithm
syrup

wait, three: julep… no more mint juleps!

and someone mentioned an appeal from the Byzantine emperor for help as “the cause”... don’t make too much of that

Europe had a warrior aristocracy whose identity was bound up in waging private war. One of the targets of the thugs-on-horseback were churches and monasteries, which full of the good stuff—gold, jewels, vestments—that warriors, especially younger sons who would not inherit their father’s estates, sought to build their fortunes and maintain their expensive equipment.

The notion of Crusade—which took the existing institution of pilgrimage and reconfigured for knights—was a partial solution to the problem of endemic elite violence in Christendom. Urban II literally wanted the warrior aristocracy, who attacked the Church as much as they sponsored and protected it, to take their violent tendencies *outside*... to use them for “good”...

...and to make the clergy stronger and more secure. Remember: the crusades of knights were PAPAL PROJECTS. Designed to bolster the political and economic position of the papal court. The appeal from Byzantium was a convenient political accident.

And don’t forget the Italians and their economic interest in opening more Levantine ports.

Comment #84: wapsie  on  09/22  at  03:39 PM

Today, we went over this most excellent article in the NYT about an Afghan woman member of parliament who had to dress her daughter up as a boy to maintain legitimacy
Comment #22: felagund on 09/21 at 08:52 PM

Thanks very much for that link, I recommend it to everyone reading, here it is again:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/21/world/asia/21gender.html?_r=2&ref=world

The practice brings to mind the way some girls and women in the West become “honorary guys” with some portion of the male privilege, though this is more formal and more complete—until they reach puberty and have to become girls!

Comment #85: oldfeminist  on  09/22  at  03:49 PM

and someone mentioned an appeal from the Byzantine emperor for help as “the cause”… don’t make too much of that

I think Pope Urban really was paranoid about the fate of Constantinople and by extension the survival of western Christendom in his own backyard. If the warrior caste simple needed something to keep them occupied, they could have been sent to Spain or off to fight to pagan Baltic tribes (which is later what actually happened)—but between 1050 and 1080, the status of the Middle East really did shift from a situation of relative stability and detente between Muslims and Christians to a situation where the old order became radically overturned in favor of Muslim kingdoms. I suppose you can argue that if there was no Battle of Manzikert, the crusades would have happened, anyway in the same fashion, but I think Occam’s Razor favors the argument that the sequence of events that led to the Cruasades was what they were.

Comment #86: Tyro  on  09/22  at  04:23 PM

“I suppose you can argue that if there was no Battle of Manzikert, the crusades would have happened, anyway in the same fashion, but I think Occam’s Razor favors the argument that the sequence of events that led to the Cruasades was what they were.”

“Occam” sounds like one of them goddam Mooslim names.  I bet his “razor” is what he uses to cutoff the heads of Christines babies so he can drank their blood, right?

America is bein hollowed out by the demonic forces of Izlamb!  Nobama is putting Sherri’s Law into place! 
Wake up America!  We have to stop the on slot before its to late!...

Comment #87: MikeEss  on  09/22  at  05:01 PM

The likelihood of anyone person or group of people bearing the absolute blame for any event in history is infinitesimally small when you look at it in the context of world events.

Umm, bullshit.  Things can be complicated historically, and often are.  But this does not mean everything is described by a shrug.  That is antithical to “doing history” - no historian goes “shit happened cause of stuff” and then wanders away.  People are just used to colonial good versus evil narratives that when historians point out that many events are more complicated than a Popeye comic, they act like the historians are being wishy-washy.  But that doesn’t mean historians just throw up their hands - you lay out the causes and effects and explain exactly who’s fault it was.  And, in the Crusades, the Europeans were definitely the guys who “started it”.  Nothing forced them to actually do anything they did.  They were not suffering from any Middle East-based economic shenanigans; they were not being attacked by anyone; even though the Byzantines wanted Western help, they wanted it for fighting an different group several hundred miles away, for basically territorial reasons.  To put together the army they did and march to the3 place they did, and kill who they did, the Western Europeans were basically doing it for entirely self-propelled reasons - they were Prime Movers for al intents and purposes.

On a related, but different note:  I am confused why any Westerner would root for the Crusades.  With the exception of the 1st (and maybe the 6th and 8th if you squint really damn hard), the Crusades were an unmitigated set of failures.  It is like saying “At one point in history, being a Western European meant “dropping the soap” to the Islamic world on a very regular and very consistent basis - let’s do that some more!”  Man, these people must think the South won the Civil War because losing has been a long-term ruse by the master tacticians of the Confederacy to lull the Union into a 150-year trap.

Comment #88: phalamir  on  09/22  at  05:37 PM

Erm, MikeEss, you do that a little TOO well…

Comment #89: TheRealistMom  on  09/22  at  05:39 PM

Erm, MikeEss, you do that a little TOO well…

Mike is actually a “moderate”.  However, he acts progressive by bundling up all the wingnut tendancies into one personality that he keeps locked away.

Occasionally it snaps the locks and rushes for the keyboard, gibbering and drooling. He wrestles it back down afterwards and pretend it was satire, but we really know what happened.

Not coincidentally it was a full moon last night…

Comment #90: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/22  at  07:00 PM

The causes of the Crusades were no different then the causes of the Viking raids (and the Crusaders were the descendants of those same Vikings)

“When dad dies, my big brother inherits everything, If I want my own, I have to hack somebody with my sword and take his, just like grandpa did to get his barony in Naples or Normandy”

You can pretend that it was more complex, but it wasn’t, just straight forward dark age brigandage and war-lordism

Comment #91: jefft452  on  09/22  at  07:09 PM

“When dad dies, my big brother inherits everything, If I want my own, I have to hack somebody with my sword and take his, just like grandpa did to get his barony in Naples or Normandy”

The ihatei theory of cultural conflict.

(5 points to the first to get that reference <without googling it</b>)

Comment #92: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  09/22  at  07:19 PM

Just want to insert a clarity into the whether Taoism and Confucianism are religion discussions. There are basically two versions of both. You have Taoism the Philosophy and Confucianism the Philosophy and Folk Taoism and Folk Confucianism, which consist of a bunch holidays, rituals, and ceremonies. The former aren’t religions, the latter are and sometimes are referred to as Chinese Folk Religions.

Comment #93: Lee  on  09/22  at  08:39 PM

I think you’ll find the following very useful in explaining the changing role of Taoist thought in Chinese society:

For example, even in its very early stages, the Daoist school of thought was closely related to other forms of Chinese philosophy, the term dao being used by all to refer to the underlying patterns of the cosmos and ideal way of governing. Throughout its history, moreover, the religion has never lost its connection to the Confucian mainstream, extolling Confucian virtues, integrating Confucian ethical principles, and often working closely with Confucians in the government of the empire. The same holds true for classical Chinese cosmology. Daoism actively participates in Chinese culture through the system of yin-yang and the five phases, a wide use of the Yijing, the traditional calendar, forms of divination (astrology, physiognomy), and various ways of manipulating qi (fengshui, music, exercises). Although often called “Daoist,” there is nothing uniquely Daoist about any of these.

Similarly blurry boundaries exist between Daoist practice and Chinese medicine, Daoist and Buddhist forms of meditation and worldview, and between Daoist worship and popular cults. Daoism has, throughout its history, continued to adapt to the changing times by integrating new and varied forms of practice and visions of the universe. It has never stopped doing so, and the increasing popularity of Daoist health spas today testifies to this ongoing process of adaptation and transformation. While this explains the apparently amorphous nature of the religion and the wide variety of its concepts and practices, it also makes it even more difficult to answer the question: What is Daoism?

Despite all these, however, there are a few things that make Daoism unique and delimit it clearly vis-à-vis other religions and the various aspects of Chinese culture. Three are most important: the concept of Dao as the underlying power that creates and supports everything in the best possible way and to which one can relate through intuition and by cultivating nonaction; the understanding of multiple layers of heaven, occupied by pure, cosmic deities and transcendent bureaucrats, in their turn aided by human priests who become their equals through ritual transformation; and the firm conviction that the qi-based human body-mind can be transmuted into an immortal spirit entity through the systematic and persistent application of longevity techniques and advanced meditations.

Daoists thus differ from Confucians in that—without denying their value—they do not see social relationships and ethical rules as central nodes of life. They expand on traditional cosmology by proposing additional levels of heaven that are closer to the purity of creation and house uniquely Daoist gods. They work with the fundamental methods of Chinese medicine yet take them to new heights by applying them to transmutation above and beyond healing and long life.

In addition, they add a dimension to popular religion by enabling their priests to become otherworld officials who engage in bureaucratic interactions with the divine, often winning law suits against spirits and successfully delivering people from the depths of hell. And they are clearly distinct from Buddhists not only because their monks keep their hair and maintain relations to their native families while their nuns and priestesses are treated as equals, but also because they do not seek release from rebirth in the complete cessation of nirvana but find ultimate perfection in a permanent spirit existence in the heavens above.

This being so, Daoism underwent a series of distinct stages of development. Three are most obvious: an ancient or classical phase that includes the philosophers and extends through the Han dynasty; a medieval or formative phase that sees the emergence of the major schools and their integration in the systematic hierarchy of the Tang; and a modern or popular phase characterized by the emergence of martial culture, the integration of popular gods, and the harmonization of the three teachings.

Comment #94: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/22  at  10:25 PM

CalliopeJane, linking wicca with bad hygiene was just an opportunity to make fun of wiccans. although i guess to be politically correct, i should call them “republican candidates for senator in delaware” instead.

Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein, i actually omitted shinto on purpose, because the japanese are just a race of barbarians anyway (at least according to my korean friends).

Comment #95: cj  on  09/22  at  10:37 PM

Wow.  Stick rule on cj (how dare you abuse my meat-space initials).

Comment #96: Antigone  on  09/22  at  11:52 PM

Man, these people must think the South won the Civil War because losing has been a long-term ruse by the master tacticians of the Confederacy to lull the Union into a 150-year trap.

Given the history of the past 40 years, I’m really not sure how to take this…

Comment #97: paul  on  09/23  at  12:03 AM

cj, tell your Korean friends that Chinese feel the same way about the Japanese, and that they don’t want to know what Chinese say about Koreans behind closed doors.  grin

Comment #98: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  09/23  at  12:28 AM

The initial Muslim conquest of the Middle East was facilitated by several factors.  First, the Byzantines and the Persians had fought a decades long war that saw a Persian army camped across the Bosphorus from Constantinople and a Byzantine army entering Mesopotamia.  The region had become impoverished.  Second, many of the Christians in Egypt and the Levant were Monophysites and were persecuted by the Greek Orthodox Byzantines.  For them, the Arabs were actually a liberating force because the Arab Muslims didn’t care what form of Christianity you practiced as long as you paid your taxes.  Third, both the cash strapped Byzantines and Persians stopped paying their respective Arab buffer states, who then decided to throw in their lot with the Muslim Arabs.  Plus, the Byzantines had never developed their own mobile light cavalry force.  Instead, they relied on heavy cavalry charges that didn’t work very well under the hot, desert sun against an enemy that could run ahead and around you.

With the Crusades, the whole venture was misguided because they never tried to expel the Turks from Anatolia.  As long as the Turks held most of Anatolia, the Crusader States in the Levant were untenable.  The Byzantines and the Crusaders never really got on well with one another and after the Byzantine emperor Manuel I got his ass handed to him by the Seljuks in 1176, the Byzantines were pretty much taken out of the picture in terms of fielding a fighting force that could offer any assistance to the Crusader states.  And as mentioned by others above, the Crusaders suffered their big defeat just 11 years later.

Comment #99: Tommykey  on  09/23  at  12:33 AM

#32 None of that made sense at all. That’s gotta be a parody, right? Boobquake? There are no radio transmitters from the government in those pills, they will make you kind of sluggish, they will dampen your avid obsession with boobies somewhat, but they’ll be a positive thing overall. Trust me, I’m from the Internet!

Also, strict white supremacists solve the possible cognitive dissonance caused by the stark disparity between the Middle East and medieval Europe by retconning Persians as white people and claiming that they’ve joined the mass of unacceptable mud people* since then and their civilization has fallen as a result. That’s right, Jake Gyllenhaal, skinheads beat you to it. They still have no way to explain the Chinese, however. Less strict “racialist” white supremacists contend that there had to be a lull somewhere, the vast majority of noteworthy civilizations were still constructed by and largely composed of white people, and always composing a minority of the world’s population+being responsible for most of human group achievement at its peak = overall win.

*Our charms, theyz irresistable.

Comment #100: Selena777  on  09/23  at  03:46 AM

@89, Not really, lets take one of the greatest historical events of recent times, the rise of the Nazi Party in Germany and the subsequent war. Who would you blame for that? Hitler? The problem with that is of course what made the German public receptive to Hitler in the first place? Antisemitism that the church was pushing? That doesn’t hold up when you consider two things, firstly that at this time all of what we would consider the western world was antisemitic, so you would think you would see more nations taking the Nazi Route and secondly to blame antisemitism on the church when people have been persecuting Jewish people for centuries is to get cause and effect the wrong way round. So then We’d have to look at the Deal made by the Weimar Government with the Allies after WWI, where the Allies demanded more money from the German State than it could ever afford, and they knew this because they were told by a certain Mr Keynes how much the Germans could pay. This lead to one of the worst economic collapses in history.

See how the rabbit hole gets deeper and deeper. A Historian identifies factors that lead to events, they do not assign blame.

Comment #101: Leah Jaclyn  on  09/23  at  04:41 AM

Tommykey at 100: If wars of conquest are immoral than the Arab conquests of the Byzantine Empire, the Persian Empire, and Visigothic Spain were not good things even if the inhabitants of the conquered parts of the Byzantine Empire felt that there was an improvement in the ruling class. Your explanation still doesn’t take into consideration whether the inhabitants of the Persian Empire or Visigothic Spain thought that their lives were better after the Arab conquest. Considering the Reconquista, we can safely say no for the latter.

  Basically, until relatively recently wars of conquest and re-conquest were parts of human life. Very few people liked it when it happened but it was expected.

Comment #102: Lee  on  09/23  at  07:54 AM

BTW, here is the wikipedia entry on the historian who was one of the first to link the Crusades to Modern European Colonialism:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Prawer

Comment #103: Lee  on  09/23  at  08:01 AM

The causes of the Crusades were no different then the causes of the Viking raids (and the Crusaders were the descendants of those same Vikings)

“When dad dies, my big brother inherits everything, If I want my own, I have to hack somebody with my sword and take his, just like grandpa did to get his barony in Naples or Normandy”

You can pretend that it was more complex, but it wasn’t, just straight forward dark age brigandage and war-lordism
Comment #92: jefft452 on 09/22 at 06:09 PM

Why are you under the impression that the Crusaders were all Normans? Some of them were, but the majority weren’t. Nor were they all landless younger sons, as shown by the example of Raymond of St. Gilles. And there is no good reason to believe all of the Crusaders had solely venal motivations, and none were motivated by sincere religious belief. Most of what you have written is partially accurate at best.

Comment #104: nom d'ecran  on  09/23  at  11:48 AM

Nom d’ecran - first, this is a both/and blog. It’s entirely possible that wanting some land and believing that those terrible pagans were defiling the Holy Sepulcher went on in the same head. That said, it’s also useless to try and go “well, they weren’t all land-grubbing barbarians” when what we know about history tends to suggest that, yes, land-grubbing and pointing the fighting outward were major propellants.

Comment #105: Matty  on  09/24  at  12:41 AM
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