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Next entry: Well, I never Previous entry: This post is not about who you’re not voting for

This ain’t no party, this is empathy boot camp, ladies

Those evo psych quacks are getting craftier about pushing their message (in essence: women are less worthy than men and therefore should have to do more work for less pay)—-the trick increasingly is not to flatter male egos by telling them that they’re meant to roam around town fucking everyone in sight while “natural” women appreciate staying at home being monogamous.  That was a crashing failure and made women eager to look for the flaws in research that doesn’t exactly conform to our experiences of being women.  No, the trick now is to put down men and flatter women in hopes that women don’t notice that, at the end of the day, the evo psych theory is on shaky ground and is dangerous to our rights. That’s the trick in this article that uses the angle of arguing that our “hard-wiring” makes men boring, so see ladies, that smaller paycheck isn’t that big a deal.  (Hat tip.

It’s a clever article, because it addresses a real frustration I think a lot of women could relate to immediately (I know I can), and it subtly reverses a stereotype. 

Are men boring? A straw poll among friends and relations would suggest the contention is so irrefutable that evidence is barely necessary. In Brighton, my friend Esme Jones, 38, who has just had a baby, spent a precious night out with her husband, a film editor, and said she kept nagging him to talk. “If I’d been with you or another girlfriend, even if we’d seen each other earlier in the day, we’d have been gabbling away 19 to the dozen.”

Prudence Barratt, 52, a management consultant, went to a dinner party in Hampstead, where she lives, at which the women sat at one end of the table, the men at the other. “And it was the nicest dinner party I’ve been to in ages. Normally when you arrive at a party, the women talk to the women because they know they’re not going to be allowed to later. It was like in the old days, when the women retired leaving the men to drone on over the port and cigars, but for the whole evening. It was bliss.”

It’s clever, because the stereotype gently being upended is that women are boring because we chatter all the time, and actually exposes how women feel about this—-that our “chatter” can be interesting and meaningful and it’s frustrating how often you have to do all the work in a conversation while a man sits like a stone.  But we know that women don’t actually talk more than men, so what’s going on here?  I think when you consider the kinds of talk being detailed here, you get a better idea of why women might feel like this.  It’s small talk and relationship maintenance chatter, both kinds of talk that are notorious for being hard work.  Women’s resentment, I think, stems less from men’s silence (I’m sure at other times their men talk too much and stomp on them in conversation), but because they have to do all the relationship maintenance work inside the relationship and in social situations where small talk forms bonds. 

We know that this work is traditionally relegated to women.  Wifely talents have in the past been about being a bright, shiny entertainment for their husbands, being attentive to a husband’s desires and needs, organizing the social calendar, and bringing that brightness to social occasions so that her husband can enjoy the relational benefits of her ability to move the wheels of small talk. Cruise any Christian dating site, and the emphasis on women’s cheerful vibrancy—-i.e., their ability to be the chattering glue that holds relationships together—-still shows up on men’s profiles.  I don’t especially feel a strong need to be the queen of small talk in my world, thank god, but even I’ve faced down the situation where you’re at dinner with a man and it’s all too easy for him to let go of directing the conversation and thinking of interesting things to say because he knows that you’ve got that responsibility.  I know a couple of men who feel similar internal pressures to keep the conversation flowing, and contrary to the insinuations in this article, they aren’t gay.  They just found themselves playing peacemaker a lot growing up, or are just someone who takes on stray responsibilities they see floating around. 

But onto the hard-wiring and why it’s crap.

Simon Baron-Cohen, professor of development psychopathology at Cambridge University, argues that the female brain is predominantly hard-wired for empathy, and the male brain for understanding and building systems—though of course not all men have a typically male brain, and not all women a female one.

I’d be curious to see if he thinks it’s honestly “hard-wired” from birth, but I’ll return to that in a moment.  What I want to talk about is the word “empathy”, which women are told we have in spades but men are missing.  To clarify why I think this is bullshit, I looked up empathy in the dictionary: ” the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.”  It’s generally assumed that empathetic people are better at feeling others than non-empathetic people, right? 

Well, then, how come one of the all-time favorite complaints of straight men is that women are always asking how they feel and what they’re thinking?  I mean, if women are so good at empathy, shouldn’t we already know?  So why all the asking?  I propose that the answer is simple: Women aren’t more empathetic than men, but we have a lot more social duties to know what our partners, friends, and family are thinking, so that we can adjust and react accordingly.  So we ask all the time so that we know what we need to be doing.  If men gather this information less frequently, it’s because they have less need for it.  We tell ourselves that women are more empathetic, because admitting that women just have more of a duty to care about what others think would call the justice of the situation into question.

There’s an economic angle, too.  If society believes that women are hard-wired for empathy and men for process, that justifies channeling women into low or unpaid service work, such as housewifery, nursing, teaching, food service, etc.  And men get higher-paid jobs that are more about “process”, as if nursing, teaching, and housewifery wasn’t also a bunch of processes. 

So did Baron-Cohen’s research find evidence that women are hard-wired for empathy and men are hard-wired for manly man money-making stuff?  Well, define “evidence”. 

Give a group of children a camera and the boys will get more than their fair share of looking down the eye-piece. “Less empathetic, more self-centred.” Leave out a bunch of big plastic cars for kids to ride on, and the boys tend to ram a vehicle deliberately into another child while the girls, on average, drive round more carefully, more sensitive to others. “When asked to judge when someone might have said something potentially hurtful, girls score higher from at least seven years old. Women are also more sensitive to facial expressions. They are better at decoding non-verbal communication, picking up subtle nuances from tone of voice or facial expression, or judging a person’s character.”

So the “hard-wiring” of stereotypically male and female behavior kicks in after a mere 7 years of hard training in gender stereotypes, from color-coded infant clothing on.  Seven years of studying a subject is not “hard-wiring” where I come from.  Where I come from, that’s a doctorate in many subjects. 

I was somewhat saddened to see Deborah Tannen quoted in this article right next to crank Louann Brizendine, whose book is just a pseudo-science sell-out cash cow.  I don’t know a lot about Tannen, but she doesn’t seem to be a wretched person on the make using phony biology to back up her claims.  I mean, she might be a gender essentialist, and it’s easy to read her work that way, but her comments here definitely avoid essentialist generalizations and stick more to observational generalizations that could, in theory, be changed if circumstances changed.

Deborah Tannen, professor of linguistics at Georgetown University, Washington, DC, imagined in her book “You Just Don’t Understand: Women and Men in Conversation” (1990) a simple scenario of a man and a woman driving along in a car. The woman says, “Would you like to stop for a coffee?” The man says, “No”, and the woman seethes for the rest of the journey because she would have quite liked to stop for a coffee. In her mind, her enquiry was the opening to a negotiation. In his, it was a question requiring a simple yes or no. When Tannen herself was working in a different city from her husband, and acquaintances expressed sympathy at her plight, her instinct was to indulge in it (thereby admitting to the vulnerabilities that create bonds, as Jess Spillane argued). Tannen’s husband responded defensively, listing the advantages of their circumstances. “For males”, she writes, “conversation is the way you negotiate your status in the group and keep people from pushing you around; you use talk to preserve your independence. Females, on the other hand, use conversation to negotiate closeness and intimacy.”

There’s not inevitable or hard-wired about any of that.  If women tend to be more relational, it’s because we live up to the expectations put on us, and so do men.  If a woman is “opening negotiations” with a question, it’s because women are strongly discouraged in our society from aggressively pursuing desires.  I know that my thought process when I ask a question like that is that it will be easier to get my way if it seems like consensus instead of bending other people’s behavior to my will.  Again, it’s evidence against the pop culture theory that women are more empathetic, because women are more likely to have to do a lot of information-gathering like that before venturing with an assertive statement or behavior.  Training myself over the years to lay claim to the same things men take as entitlements has been hard work, and I’m not as far along as I like.  I’ve overcome the fear of being a bitch to the point where I will make a declarative statement with regards to mandatory body functions—-“I need to pull over to pee,” instead of, “Do you need a bathroom break?”—-but I’d probably still choke on the coffee request unless I was in withdrawal pain or something.  I hate myself for this kind of passivity sometimes, but that doesn’t mean it’s evidence of hard wiring so much as a very thorough training in the art of being a woman. 

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 02:29 PM • (94) Comments

Simon Baron-Cohen and David Buss ought to be locked in a closet together with a couple of dull butter knives, and told only one of them is allowed to come out.

A straw poll among friends and relations

“I was too lazy to do any actual research. Duh, I’m a journalist on a deadline. So I asked some of my buddies. This is what passes for objective, factual investigation these days.”

And the amount of gender pressure put on children from birth on is un. fucking. believable. When my daughter, as a toddler, would do toddler-type things like grab toys or shriek, people glared, and smiled gratefully if I corrected her. When my son did the EXACT SAME THINGS, people cooed and said “Oh, no, that’s okay,” sometimes actually interfering with my correcting him (“It’s all right, Parsleigh, let the cute little boy have the truck now.”)

Comment #1: mythago  on  06/14  at  02:40 PM

Dear Evo-Psychs,

NOT EVERYTHING HUMANS EXPERIENCE IS GENETIC AND/OR SELECTED FOR VIA EVOLUTION.

Eat A Pile Of Dicks,
The Opoponax

Comment #2: The Opoponax  on  06/14  at  02:42 PM

No real comment (fascinating reading, though), but you had me at Doppelganger Willow.

Comment #3: geordie  on  06/14  at  02:48 PM

Oh, and regarding Tannen, the sense I get (from covering her work in a college course on gender and language) is that she’s actually a somewhat responsible and honest scholar and simply not prone to generalizing absolutely everything to biological essentialism.  It’s just simply neither here nor there in relation to her work.  She doesn’t talk a lot about the whys and hows of the outrageous gender binaries she’s so fond of hyperbolizing - Women And Men Are Just Different, OK? 

She also has serious race/class/culture/etc blinders, and tends to come off like a New York Times feature article; “this situation happened to me and my husband, therefore Women And Men Are Just Different, OK?”

Comment #4: The Opoponax  on  06/14  at  03:01 PM

Did you see Stephen Colbert on Monday or Tuesday night? His guest was an evo-psych author, and SC summed it up quite brilliantly (I’m paraphrasing): “Are you sure this isn’t all just an elaborate justification for being an asshole?”

Comment #5: rhiain  on  06/14  at  03:06 PM

“It was like in the old days, when the women retired leaving the men to drone on over the port and cigars, but for the whole evening. It was bliss.”

I hate this crap, the “boyz like boy stuff and gurlz like gurl stuff bullshit”. Oh please.

Charlie and I hosted a buffett-style dinner party at our home the night before our wedding like this. 2 dozen people and eventually, the women went to the livingroom of our townhouse and the guys ended up in the backyard with cigars, port and brandy.

I snuck away from the gals (GAH, my MIL and mother! With others, gabbing about who knows what…) and went out with the boys- much more fun! Plus I really like cigars and port. My husband’s best childhood friend, who met me for the first time at a Giants game Charlie had taken me to yeards before, asked Charlie where on Earth he had found a gal who liked cigars, port and football!

(BTW, Chargers beat the Giants 21-3; Simms threw a disgusting amount of interceptions or poorly advised passes. To this day, I heckle him whenever he commentates a game…)

We delayed our honeymoon one day to sneak back home and watch football and drink beer together all afternoon and evening- after attending a Star Trek convention that morning- my idea and it was heavenly.

Comment #6: louise  on  06/14  at  03:16 PM

The woman says, “Would you like to stop for a coffee?” The man says, “No”, and the woman seethes for the rest of the journey because she would have quite liked to stop for a coffee.

My approach: “Charlie, stop the car at the next stop. I would like to get a coffee.”
              “Oh, okay Louise. Good idea.”

There! Not hard at all, was it? *eye roll*

Comment #7: louise  on  06/14  at  03:20 PM

I snuck away from the gals (GAH, my MIL and mother! With others, gabbing about who knows what…) and went out with the boys- much more fun!

And here we have, in a sentence, the reason Feminism Is Not Dead.

Because at the end of the day, social conventions have not changed that much over the last 200-odd years.  Half of Little Women is Meg chiding Jo for wanting to slip out and kick it with the dudes over a snifter of brandy, when Everyone Knows she’s supposed to make idle chatter with Teh Ladies after dinner, like a good girl.

Yes, even though women can now wear pants, use birth control, get educated, and work outside the home in non-pink-collar careers (even after marriage and children!), Jane Austen and Louisa May Alcott would probably fit right in after a couple weeks in 2008.

Comment #8: The Opoponax  on  06/14  at  03:23 PM

I have heard Baron-Cohen speak about his research a few years back. I found his theories dubious, based far too deeply on facile ideas about how men and women act. Yet at the end of the talk (weeks after the Summers stupidity), he commented that even though he thinks his research supports notable psychological differences between men and women that are biologically based, there are also significant populations that are atypical and that furthermore, if we decide that we want gender parity as a social policy, then it doesn’t matter what the science says.

I couldn’t decide if that was a genuine gesture of support or simply a more nuanced version of “some of my best friends are…”.

We are all aware that his son is Borat, right?

Comment #9: Paris  on  06/14  at  03:24 PM

Louise, you’re in a good situation.  For a lot of women, that kind of boldness creates serious problems for them.

Comment #10: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/14  at  03:25 PM

We are all aware that his son is Borat, right?

Actually, he’s his first cousin. 

And I have to say that A) Ali G is way, way funnier and a more politically palatable introduction to Sacha Baron-Cohen’s oeuvre, and B) the whole Borat movie thing really ruined it for me.  Also, Borat was far more interesting in the BBC incarnation of Da Ali G Show.  HBO took it and made it a lot more about mocking Teh Furrners.

Comment #11: The Opoponax  on  06/14  at  03:31 PM

I think Simon Baron-Cohen needs to meet me.  I’m a female hardcore systems geek.  Oops.

I recently heard of a study that purported to be another one of these “Boys and Girls Are Just Different, Okay?” things, where they’d looked at toddlers and found that the girls’ brains had, on average, developed somewhat differently from the boys—except, the study said, there was 20% of children in each group who had “the brain of the opposite sex” by their stupid criteria.  I was sitting there thinking, “I don’t think your study is showing what you think it’s showing…”  Considering that we already know if you take a newborn baby and dress it in pink clothes, people will handle it and speak to it differently than if it’s dressed in blue clothes—regardless of what its actual sex is—the socialisation starts really young. 

(Any prospective parents out there, I’d suggest giving your kid the best possible gender-neutral socialisation by dressing them gender-neutral or in sex-linked colours on opposite days or something.  We need lots and lots of babies in black!  Yeah.  Punk rock goth babies.  I might almost start liking babies who were wearing little Goth outfits…)

Comment #12: Interrobang  on  06/14  at  03:49 PM

Louise-
I too am one of those that would rather be out back discussing politics, drinking scotch, smoking cigars, and having meaningful and exciting conversation, I never understood why the women had to gather in the kitchen doing dishes (seriously!) while the dudes got to go have fun.
Well I recently got pregnant, and realized, I can’t hang out drinking and smoking cigars now.
So do I stand off to one side (and still get evil looks about how irresponsible I am being by standing withing 100 feet of second hand smoke) and try to join in? or capitulate, and just chill with the ladies.
I think the fact that women bear the children has some standing on how this habit developed. It kind of sucks.
I might be ‘with child’ but I certainly am not giving up meaningful conversation to only talk about teh babiez.

Comment #13: yazikus  on  06/14  at  03:58 PM

And I’m a 29 year old guy who’s downright paranoid about making sure I know what the people around me are thinking and feeling. Pffffft.

The problem I have with this evo-psych bullshit, is that it’s very small-minded. It takes some data, and a presupposed conclusion, and just makes it fit. It’s the worst type of pseudo-logic.

In this case, the more obvious conclusion isn’t that we’re hardwired towards certain kinds of thinking, but it’s a product of our environment, of the various social customs and mores. Myself? I’m the result of reading religious texts before I could understand them, and I got the fire and brimstone without the bright and sunny side. ‘tis what it is.

The worst part of this, I think is that this “movement” looks to accept all those social customs blindly and without any sort of discussion or evolution. (How ironic considering what they call themselves) It’s just the authoritarian mindset trying to put people in neat little boxes so they can be easily dealt with.

Comment #14: Karmakin  on  06/14  at  04:13 PM

Funny, I go to co-ed parties all the time and don’t find that the gender-segregation thing happens much at all.  Usually everyone at these sorts of gatherings is talking about non-gendered things like politics, movies, and work.  And I hardly think that anyone’s genitals would implode if some girl was all, “Well to be perfectly honest, I really prefer Sierra Nevada to Bass…”, or a guy said, “Man, it’s so crazy that So-n-so and Whatshername got engaged…”

Comment #15: The Opoponax  on  06/14  at  04:17 PM

BTW, the above comment was interrupted by a 10 minute conversation with my MALE roommate about linens, including which nearby store has the best deals and a tangent on thread-count vs. fabric content.

Wouldn’t the above have been as unlikely as the two of us taking a quick flight around the neighborhood if people like Baron-Cohen are right?

Comment #16: The Opoponax  on  06/14  at  04:22 PM

The example about needing to request a pee break while on a road trip really popped out at me since that’s one of the very first feminist lessons I remember my mom teaching me.  I was hemming and hawing about maybe next time someone felt like stopping we could maybe take a break if no one minded.  My mom asked if I needed to pee, and when I admitted I did she said, “Well then say so!  Don’t worry about just asking for what you need when you need it.”  We pulled over at the very next exit. 

She consistently reinforced that message throughout my childhood, and without her influence I’d probably still be too timid to honestly express myself.

She also taught me that it’s OK to take the last piece of cake if someone offers and that if I don’t want give away the last piece of cake I shouldn’t ask if someone else wants it “just to be polite.”  Questions are to be taken at face value and answered honestly.  They’re not some test of figuring out what the other person really means.  I was lucky to get such a great mom.

Comment #17: Unruly Duckling  on  06/14  at  04:24 PM

“For a lot of women, that kind of boldness creates serious problems for them.”

If your S.O. can’t take a request to stop for coffee, Jesus Christ, DTMFA.

Comment #18: Eric, Rejector of Memes  on  06/14  at  04:26 PM

A couple of thoughts…

Opoponax says ,

“She also has serious race/class/culture/etc blinders, and tends to come off like a New York Times feature article; “this situation happened to me and my husband, therefore Women And Men Are Just Different, OK?”

I think this is the same fundamental problem that the author of the article has, anecdote as evidence. More power to Tannen for writing thoughtful books that popular publishers want to sell to lots of people. The problem is that to get pubished that way, you have to give up something in the way of academic rigor, or at least not be explicit about it. Janet Davis’s does one of the best jobs of walking that line I’ve ever seen in “The Circus Age.” Halfway through the introduction she basically tells readers to skip ahead if they don’t feel like reading the academic bits. This makes for a very readable academic book, but it’s not the same as writing for a popular audience as Tannen often does.

Amanda says,

To clarify why I think this is bullshit, I looked up empathy in the dictionary: “ the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.” It’s generally assumed that empathetic people are better at feeling others than non-empathetic people, right?

Well, then, how come one of the all-time favorite complaints of straight men is that women are always asking how they feel and what they’re thinking?  I mean, if women are so good at empathy, shouldn’t we already know?  So why all the asking?  I propose that the answer is simple: Women aren’t more empathetic than men, but we have a lot more social duties to know what our partners, friends, and family are thinking, so that we can adjust and react accordingly.

I think you’re conflating empathy as the ability to identify with someone’s feelings and the ability to recognize those feelings. I don’t think that those are the same thing, but rather one is a necessary precondition for the other. The person who is empathetic will make an active effort to find out how someone is feeling or what they are thinking when it is unclear. The empathetic person won’t bother. I don’t think it’s evidence for women’s not being empathetic.

To my mind, the much bigger problem with the article are the ideas that being chatty and boring are opposites and that either is a function of empathy, rather than, as Amanda points out, the expectation that “carrying the conversation” and more generally providing social lubrication are tasked to women.

Comment #19: Samwise  on  06/14  at  04:30 PM

Opoponax:To be fair, if I go to a family gathering, it’s usually a bit closer to what’s being talked about (but still pretty much mixed, as well, just as often as not it’s the men doing the dishes and cleanup after than the women).

But among my friends it’s very gender mixed, with discussion usually about culture, be it movies or books or politics or video games or whatever.

I have no doubt that the strong divisions do happen, but it’s rare that I actually experience it.

Wait. I did, just recently.

My nephew’s christening party, was very segregated. VERY. Men in the garage, women in the house.

I was in the house as well, to be honest. I don’t like being around people who are drinking, and I was having fun doting on my nephew :p But I left after just a little bit (after nephew went to sleep), as me and my wife just didn’t feel like we fit in with that vibe in the first place.

Comment #20: Karmakin  on  06/14  at  04:36 PM

The woman says, “Would you like to stop for a coffee?” The man says, “No”, and the woman seethes for the rest of the journey because she would have quite liked to stop for a coffee.

On the other hand, how hard is it to divine that someone might be asking that question BECAUSE they want coffee and wanted to check to see if you do? It hardly requires you to be psychic—just not so self-absorbed that you think people only say that kind of thing to make sure you’re not running low on caffeine.

There are two really common non-ludicrous ways for this conversation to go that avoid pointless passive-agression AND cluelessness:

Person A: Would you like to stop for a coffee?
Person B: No.
Person A: I think I’d like one though, is it all right if we stop?
Person B: Oh, OK then.

Person A: Would you like to stop for a coffee?
Person B: Not really, how about you?
Person A: Yeah, I kind of wanted a cup.
Person B: OK then, let’s stop. I can see if they have one of those vending machines where you can get those transferrable fake tattoos of a panther.
Person A: Oh, you and your panthers.

Comment #21: Holly  on  06/14  at  04:40 PM

he thinks his research supports notable psychological differences between men and women that are biologically based, there are also significant populations that are atypical and that furthermore, if we decide that we want gender parity as a social policy, then it doesn’t matter what the science says.

That’s basically what I think, too.  There may well statistically be biologically based psychological differences with physical markers like sex or race, but A. the evidence really isn’t in, and won’t be for a good long time, due to cultural effects swamping everything and B. the presence of atypical people, and the general utility of judging everyone as individuals, means that we should pretty much just ignore whatever we eventually learn.

Comment #22: HonoreDB  on  06/14  at  04:41 PM

“My approach: “Charlie, stop the car at the next stop. I would like to get a coffee.”
“Oh, okay Louise. Good idea.”

There! Not hard at all, was it? *eye roll* “

And it ignores the likelihood that most women who have any sort of power in the relationship will, if the man says that he does not actively want to stop for coffee, progress to “Okay, would you mind stopping for coffee?  I want some.” They don’t give up after one attempt to get what they want without straying into the dreaded Demanding Bitch territory, especially if they want it badly enough to seethe over not getting it.

Comment #23: preying mantis  on  06/14  at  04:42 PM

I don’t know, I think there is a very strong correlation between the old saw that “women are naturally more empathetic” and the relationship mind-reader phenomenon.  In, fact, I’d go so far as to say that the reason patriarchal elements are so interested in ingraining Counselor Troi = All Women into thinking folks is that the survival of their system, where the woman’s main responsibility is making sure the patriarch is physically and emotionally taken care of at all times, depends on people believing that this is all natural and scientific and outside our control. 

In an evo-psych’s ideal world, a woman uses her special Empathy powers to know in advance exactly what is going on with the men in her life so that she can adequately care for them while still being seen rather than heard.  The main thing that makes them blatantly fraudulent (or just deluded, maybe) is exactly what Amanda points out—if said Empathy powers were hardwired into women, we wouldn’t have to do all the clandestine sleuthing and aura-reading to figure out the proper care and feeding of Menz.  Kind of like the way that, since humans are genetically hardwired to be able to talk, we can learn language instinctively rather than having to be given How To Talk Lessons in preschool.

Comment #24: The Opoponax  on  06/14  at  04:45 PM

Karmarkin, I wasn’t so much criticizing folks in this thread who’ve talked about navigating gender-segregated social gatherings (because, yes, sometimes they really do happen), but the idea posited in the article, that since Men And Women Are So Different That They Can’t Even Converse With One Another In A Group Situation, therefore the women might as well find a way to enjoy the inevitable segregation and pretend it was our idea in the first place.

When, if my experience is any indication, men and women seem perfectly able to coexist in a co-ed social situation.

Comment #25: The Opoponax  on  06/14  at  04:49 PM

Yazikus- regarding secong-hand smoke:

My philosophy has always been “my house, my rules”. And the second I found I was pregnant with our first, all ashtrays went out in the yard. If a guest wants to smoke, they can damned well do it outside- I will not have it near my kids.

But that’s what works for me. As Amanda wrote, I’m in a very good situation- but I also made sure of that before I married and had kids. My husband is my best friend and 100% my partner/equal- our friendship and respect for each other are treasures and we have each other’s back.

If someone were to come onto our property with a dirty look or an attitude about how I conduct my life, they would be told to leave. Personally, I cannot imagine anyone in our circle of family and friends doing so in the first place. Life is too short to deal with shithead attitudes from someone who isn’t paying my bills or taxes. Fuck ‘em if they don’t like it.

Comment #26: louise  on  06/14  at  04:49 PM

Another thing that hasn’t changed in 200 years is that ‘female things’ are still sneered at - so that it’s always much more fun to be the only girl bold enough to hang out with the cigar-and-port guys, without ever wondering why the women are “gabbing” and the men get to have all the fun.

On the coffee example, I wonder why it is that the man is almost always the one driving in the first place.

Comment #27: mythago  on  06/14  at  04:59 PM

Exactly right, mythago- about 80% of the time, it’s me driving (I enjoy it more and know Maine’s roads far better), but I was working within the provided example’s framework.

But can someone please explain to me how the word “bold” comes into play, because Amanda used it as well. How is it “bold” to do what you want within your own home??? I don’t get that at all. To me, “bold” means “brave, daring, risk-taking”... am I missing something here?

Comment #28: louise  on  06/14  at  05:06 PM

BTW, Eric- I completely agree. Dump fast and never look back.

Comment #29: louise  on  06/14  at  05:07 PM

“Bold” because not everyone has the freedom to get away from oppressive family or partners and do whatever the hell they want. Bold because, presumably, you have fully rid yourself of your cultural conditioning and therefore have no doubts about whether a husband’s disapproval means anything to do.

Comment #30: mythago  on  06/14  at  05:30 PM

In an evo-psych’s ideal world, a woman uses her special Empathy powers to know in advance exactly what is going on with the men in her life so that she can adequately care for them. . .

Opoponax, I was thinking the same thing, but I think it may go even further. Evo-psych seems to be the great scientific justification for patriarchy. If we accept that women are more genetically empathetic than man, and we ask why this is; then, we are lead to the conclusion that it is so because this feature is inherent to childbearing. Thus, reductively, we can conclude that evolutionary psychological makeup women revolves around childbirth. This becomes natural law justification for workplace discrimination, control of reproductive choice, and other cultural restrictions placed upon women.

I donno, maybe I’m being a little paranoid today

Comment #31: stevek  on  06/14  at  05:41 PM

Okay.

What you’re describing is more along the lines of my mom’s marriage, which you’re right- I did completely break away from that sort of home enviroment and its potential conditioning as fast as I could as a teen.

Then, finding I did want a relationship with my father, worked for decades to make my father understand his attitudes had no sway over me and that while we viewed the world and relationships completely differently, that peace between us was possible- if he treated me and my family with the decency and respect he himself expected.

It took almost 20 years, but I got it but staying firm, clear and not backing down. And not being confrontational.

Mom, however, STILL tiptoes around him as if he could wilt her with a glance sometimes. And says she “needs his permission” to do anything. Ya think maybe that’s why I’m so “bold”? wink

Comment #32: louise  on  06/14  at  05:42 PM

Eric, mine can.  I think most can, but that’s not what I mean.

Getting the reputation of being a problem and being a bitch and being demanding is not just one incident.  Women are well aware that it builds up over time.  One blunt request may not matter, but made routinely over time and you start to irritate some men.

On the flip side, you have guys who hate the feminine hemming and hawing, but maybe don’t understand where it’s coming from.

Comment #33: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/14  at  05:56 PM

On the other hand, how hard is it to divine that someone might be asking that question BECAUSE they want coffee and wanted to check to see if you do? It hardly requires you to be psychic—just not so self-absorbed that you think people only say that kind of thing to make sure you’re not running low on caffeine.

Amen.  I would be shocked if such a blunt question didn’t get interpreted by most men I know as, “I would like to stop for coffee and am asking if you would too in order to create consensus instead of making this about my imperious demands.”

Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/14  at  06:02 PM

On the coffee example, I wonder why it is that the man is almost always the one driving in the first place.

Even if I’m driving, I want consensus before I just pull over.  The passengers are also invested in arriving on time.  Marc drives more than I do because he’s got a more comfortable car and likes to drive, and he always, always asks before pulling over.  I mean, that’s just done.  Pulling over and refusing to explain yourself would be really bizarre.

Comment #35: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/14  at  06:04 PM

I let my boyfriend do most of the driving.  I can read and knit in the car.  He gets carsick, so he either drives or sleeps.

Comment #36: syfr  on  06/14  at  06:26 PM

Wow, I still don’t get it.  I’d expect a driver to _explain_ why s/he was pulling over, but not especially to ask.  (If there were a time crunch, that’s diff.)

But I think Louise and I agree on the “asking a question, expecting telepathically-sensitive response” is a silly and passive-aggressive tactic.

Comment #37: Eric, Rejector of Memes  on  06/14  at  06:28 PM

Well, I don’t have a car and hate to drive.  The only car-owner I have dated recently (actually, almost ever, now that I think about it) has been male, and it would be a bit presumptuous of me to demand 50-50 drive time in service to feminism. 

And I agree with Amanda, regardless of driver-passenger gender dynamics, all stops are to be mutually agreed upon based on the needs and wishes of both parties.

Comment #38: The Opoponax  on  06/14  at  06:30 PM

It is undoubtably a passive-aggressive tactic.  Beyond any shadow of a doubt.  I mean, I think in normal conversation, it’s widely accepted that asking such a question is a way of expressing an opinion gently, but when it becomes much more genuinely passive aggressive is when things get more complex.  Passive aggression is a remarkable female art form that has been honed for centuries as a survival mechanism.  Getting a hymenoplasty so that you can have your sex and still present as a virgin on your wedding night is passive aggression, but I think we all see here why someone would maybe need to do that, and applaud her for finding a way to exert her will without having to face unfair abuse for it. 

But good people can slip into unconscious gender roles very easily.  I routinely see kind, feminist-minded people judge women harshly for basic assertiveness that would go unmentioned in a man, or even be admired.  We don’t mean to be assholes; we’ve been trained from the cradle to think there’s something off-putting about a woman who states her opinions unvarnished with passive aggressive niceties. 

I don’t really blame women for quietly and often subconsciously adjusting their behavior so they get by in this world.  I didn’t probably realize how passive aggressive I was casually until I started dating a guy who is more in the “just spit it out” school of thought.  That, and I got much more inured to the idea that I’m going to get called a bitch, since I get that daily now and haven’t died yet.

Comment #39: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/14  at  06:39 PM

Holly’s alternatives on the coffee example seem a lot more realistic to me. 
I usually handle such situations this way: “I’d like some coffee, can we look for a place to stop for some?”  I suppose my companion could say something like “would you mind waiting until we get home, we’re only a half hour away” or “let’s wait until we also have to pee to cut down on total stops” that would be reasonable.  I like to believe I would never suffer someone so controlling that they would reject a normal request.

Comment #40: bethany  on  06/14  at  06:43 PM

Not that my boyfriend would call me a bitch, of course.  Again, I think he thinks I’m much easier to deal with when I just say what I want bluntly.  But it’s that internalized, free-floating fear that you’re going to be a pain in someone’s ass and they will hold that against you because you’re there to make other people’s lives easier, not more troublesome. 

I do agree that it’s good advice for women to practice saying, “I want,” and “Let’s,” and “When do you want,” and “Here are the choices,” instead of, “Do you want?”  Just practicing. I think my problem for a long time was overthinking it and then I remembered that some things that seem psychologically damning are pretty much plain old bad habits and can be changed with practice. 

But I just want to make it clear that for those women who really are in untenable social situations—-like, oh, not living in a nice, liberal city where a little Texas brassiness is considered charming—-then beating on them for passive aggression, a survival skill, seems a little harsh.

Comment #41: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/14  at  06:48 PM

By the way, Steve, I see your paranoia about reproductive rights and raise you my own paranoia about women’s work.

By selling us the idea that women are by nature more empathic than men, evo-psychs also make yet another kind of work that women are often saddled with even more invisible.  Because, no, I don’t just magically know (through the wonder of DNA!) how you take your coffee, what you want for dinner, which movie you feel like watching, which sports you follow and which bore you, who your favorite novelist is…  I have to fucking find out.  In a patriarchal system have to keep a constant inventory of the likes, dislikes, tastes, and lifestyles of everyone in my life who has power over me, from my father to my boyfriend to my boss to my (currently hypothetical) children, and I have to be constantly updating that inventory.  I have to play those mental inventories off each other, and factor in other circumstances that will affect and be affected by the various situations of the patriarchs in my life. 

This is work.

It’s work because this isn’t something that comes naturally, the way that speaking or walking or digesting food generally aren’t work.  By pretending that this is just an instinct that women have, or some convenient little apparatus stuck into the frontal lobe somewhere, suddenly all that work women have to do disappears.  And here we are, just a bunch of spoiled lazy bitches who sit around the house all day munching bonbons and watching “the stories”, oblivious to the Real World of hard work Teh Menz are out there negotiating so that they can buy us more bonbons and pay the cable bill.

Comment #42: The Opoponax  on  06/14  at  06:49 PM

I almost always drive now because my car gets 3x the mileage of his van. I always get concurrence before stopping, or at least say, “we have to stop at the store, we need…”.

However, before I got my new car, my jackass husband always drove because he couldn’t fit comfortably in my car. He was always stopping unexpectedly, especially after dinner on Saturday and he would never tell us in advance where we were going. It pissed me off to no end and I couldn’t articulate to him what irritated my so much. I know it was a stupid power/control thing with him, but he just wouldn’t understand.

On the boy/girl conversations, though, I have always found it easier to talk to men as I generally prefer topics of conversation that are more “male” oriented. I am a computer geek and I love sports and hot cars. More often than not, men are more likely to be talking about such things. Sad to say, far to often when I am in the company of women, they are on and on about their churches (deep red Houston, here). Since I am atheist, I really don’t care about their churches.

Comment #43: Rocket Girl  on  06/14  at  06:51 PM

This jumped out at me in the article:

Simon Baron-Cohen, professor of development psychopathology at Cambridge University, argues that the female brain is predominantly hard-wired for empathy, and the male brain for understanding and building systems—though of course not all men have a typically male brain, and not all women a female one.

So why even call them typical male or typical female brains?  It’s a pretty uncontroversial claim to say that some brains are more geared towards certain social expertise and other brains are more geared toward systematic and analytic expertise.  One could also expound on a whole lot of other expertises and not set them up as mutually exclusive.  But for reasons that elude me, evo psychs are compelled to attach brain types to genital types, thus forcing a rigid dichotomy on both sorts of traits, which in reality are quite pluralistic, plastic, and developmentally driven.  It’s as if their need for a dichotomy is so strong that they just ignore anything that might challenge it. 

While evo psych certainly supports the patriarchy, I’d wager it’s actually fundamentally along the lines of Teh Stupid than misogynist.

Comment #44: Loneoak  on  06/14  at  06:55 PM

But good people can slip into unconscious gender roles very easily.  I routinely see kind, feminist-minded people judge women harshly for basic assertiveness that would go unmentioned in a man, or even be admired.  We don’t mean to be assholes; we’ve been trained from the cradle to think there’s something off-putting about a woman who states her opinions unvarnished with passive aggressive niceties.

The reverse of this is one of my problems… I see women being passive-agressive instead of direct as very off-putting, and want to kick them. Or at least yell “WTF???” at them…

If their husband/BF/SO is that much of a “jerk, asshole,  jackass”, etc and they are nervous of retribution if they are indeed direct or “bold”, then they can wait until he is gone for the day, pack their shit and run like hell. Why stay??? HE IS NOT GONNA BE ANY BETTER TOMORROW OR THE NEXT DAY. Anyone who knowingly stays in an emotionally abusive/power controlled relationship has some serious problems- and there is help out there, if resources are difficult. Staying because of kids or money and putting up with assholery is essentially selling yourself.

This from a gal who, with her little sister, BEGGED her mom to leave her father- and Mom didn’t. And last year,  we had to bury my younger sister because the emotional abuse we suffered in those days was the catalyst that ruined her life.

Comment #45: louise  on  06/14  at  07:04 PM

Use of the term “hard-wired” for explaining human behavior is usually a signal that some steaming pile of evo-psyche nonsense is about to follow.  Hardwiring refers to physical circuitry in electrical equipment, as opposed to programmable logic, which can be be altered via software changes.

Actually, the brain functions much more like programmable logic controllers than hard-wired devices. That’s true for men and women.

Comment #46: happyfungirl  on  06/14  at  07:05 PM

Louise, it might not be conscious.  And again, it’s never all at once.  Slowly, over time you get minor negative reactions to being straightforward and you scale back a little at a time.

Comment #47: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/14  at  07:09 PM

Amanda, thanks for that clear explanation of two issues at stake: women needing to practice being direct, and also understand women for whom passive manipulation truly is a survival tactic. 

That’s what I appreciated about being exposed to Tannen’s work in college: she labeled those tendencies, and allowed me to be critical of when and why I was using them, and learn to practice being direct when it made sense.

Comment #48: bethany  on  06/14  at  07:14 PM

I know; sorry. Things get a bit emotional for me around Father’s Day with my sister gone. Dad told me last year, as I was driving him to Lil Sis’ burial, that he knew he had been a lousy father to us.

But in the next sentence, he said it wouldn’t have been like that if we had been boys…

He’s old. He can’t hurt me any more. Or her.

But Mom never tried to assert herself, and I never understood that. She would sit back, while my sister cowered in our room and I took his drunken railings, then yelled right back at him. He would not let me go to bed until I finally broke down and cried, even if it meant 3am. And quite often it did.

It does start in little bits, little negative comments, little moments of stealing away power and claiming it as one’s own. Digging and tearing down, while she as “Mom” tries to keep things normal for appearances with the neighbors, her own family, their friends- and she tries to teach her daughters to ignore it, to remain calm, to be ladies and rise above it.

GAH. Good evening all, and my sincere apologies to anyone I have offended with my rants. I am going to fix a cup of tea and thank my lucky stars for the good life I have now. And not dwell on my past.

Comment #49: louise  on  06/14  at  07:19 PM

I think it’s also based on the fact that, while you have control over who you date and/or marry, you don’t always have control in other situations that demand stereotypical feminine passive aggression.  The workplace coming immediately to mind.  Also family situations not of one’s own choosing—you can pick your spouse, but you can’t pick your inlaws. 

There’s also the matter of what to do when this stuff just doesn’t seem like that big of a deal.  I generally adore my family and it just doesn’t seem worthwhile to cut off all relations because I sometimes have to hang back in the kitchen with my female relatives at a gathering.  How many people are willing to go through a divorce over their husband making being kind of a jackass about making stops during a long car trip?

Comment #50: The Opoponax  on  06/14  at  07:23 PM

happyfungirl is right on about the hardwiring nonsense.  Why is it that so many conservatives take metaphors for reality?  Pipe fittings have male and female parts so gender must be biologically determined!  There exists a thing called hard-wiring so our brains must be like that!

There’s also this inability to think through causality when it comes to biology, behavior, and sociality.  Evopsychs assume that anything social must be determined by the brain which must be determined by DNA.  But they absolutely fail to see the possibility that social experiences could shape the brain.  Every behavior we have is biological because it can’t be otherwise—our brain is an organ.  But it’s metaphysical nonsense to assume that biology is always the cause and never the effect of behavior.

Comment #51: Loneoak  on  06/14  at  07:25 PM

Loneoak: So why even call them typical male or typical female brains?

Because it’s important to the patriarchy to keep asserting that there ARE differences between men and women, and here is what these differences are. This kind of “male brain” and “female brain” crap has been going on for centuries: this is just the latest aspect of it.

Comment #52: Jesurgislac  on  06/14  at  07:26 PM

Ah, sorry, louise.  Didn’t mean to drive it to the bad place.  It’s interesting the parallels between how society at large discourages women from assertiveness and how a man can break down his wife in an abusive relationship slowly over time.  Chilling, really.

Comment #53: Amanda Marcotte  on  06/14  at  07:43 PM

I am terrible at empathy or pseudo-empathy, relationship maintenance, small talk, and vibrant chatter. I know a number of men who are better at that stuff than I am. They just call it “politics.”

But I’m probably an autistic spectrum lesbian, so I am abnormal in every sense according to these gender-stereotyped schematics. I hate domestic fiction and prefer science fiction and reading about how to maintain swimming pools (not because I have one, but because it’s very hot weather and I am fantasizing).

Comment #54: sara  on  06/14  at  07:50 PM

Sorry if this was stated already, did not read all the comments. But I know there’s at least one study that showed that a rise in “empathy” chatter and other kinds of subordinate/maintenence conversation was tied not just to gender, but to social position. Subordinates, in other words, regardless of gender, are often very aware of the boss’s moods…they have to be. If he’s on a tear, they need to read the signs.

As far as I can see, “innate” female behavior of this kind is merely a cultural holdover from the time when a woman’s survival might depend on reading the moods of the men around her and anticipating their needs. But when men are put in the same situation, you can bet they do it too, and that they will tiptoe, distract, flatter, and anticipate the needs of anyone in power over them.

Comment #55: emjaybee  on  06/14  at  07:51 PM

It’s junk science. A bunch of concepts like “typical male” or “typicial female” brains are easy to talk about and make up theories.  It reminds me of the junk journalism that’s everywhere now. The news anchors and reporters all cover stories that are very easy to report on - simple, without investigative effort.  Anything complicated is avoided, especially if it requires a lot of work to research. Same with the junky evopsyche science.

Comment #56: happyfungirl  on  06/14  at  07:58 PM

So Vamp Willow there, it just means “bored now”, right? Because I am perplexed about the really important issues.

Comment #57: brandon  on  06/14  at  08:45 PM

Curse you, brandon! I was going to say the exact same thing! :p

Comment #58: Jayunderscorezero  on  06/14  at  10:07 PM

This is a classic of the literary genre of “My life sucks, in fact it’s biologically predetermined to suck,* so there’s no onus on me to do anything about it. *whew*”

Also, I like how she starts the article with “Men are boring” and manages to come around to “So we need to feel sorry for them, the poor dears” by the end. Even when men suck, it still earns them special treatment! Pretty neat deal.

*Implication: if your life doesn’t suck this way, you’re doing it wrong/lying to yourself.

Comment #59: heresiarch  on  06/15  at  12:30 AM

Louise, it might not be conscious.  And again, it’s never all at once.  Slowly, over time you get minor negative reactions to being straightforward and you scale back a little at a time.

That is why I do sparring.  It shakes up every single brain and nerve cell and removes all prior conditioning.

Comment #60: Jennifer Cascadia  on  06/15  at  12:41 AM

Also I think that those who do believe in the ev. psychology nonsense eventually undermine their own functioning in the world due to attributing false causality to the world around them.  If you believe, for instance, that women are inherently empathetic no matter what, then you will tend to behave any old how in relation to women.  This is bound to backfire and undermine your status and/or credibility in due course.

Comment #61: Jennifer Cascadia  on  06/15  at  12:46 AM

I dunno. I’m male, and when I talk, I usually get a response “I don’t want to hear an essay.”  I find I am expected to listen, to pay attention (not to pay attention is fatal), and to be responsive.  But never let a concern of mine be more than peripheral to the conversation is what is expected.

Comment #62: Arun  on  06/15  at  12:56 AM

On the other hand, how hard is it to divine that someone might be asking that question BECAUSE they want coffee and wanted to check to see if you do? It hardly requires you to be psychic—just not so self-absorbed that you think people only say that kind of thing to make sure you’re not running low on caffeine.

It could also be that there are many such men have difficulties reading between the lines of such requests due to lack of experience and strong necessity of learning this means of communication and/or difficulties processing language to account for the complexity and subtext due to poor language skills/undiagnosed disability. 

One way I’ve seen this is how some male classmates who otherwise would be considered “highly intelligent”* often naively took words at face value without even knowing to look for the subtext which ended up not only getting them into trouble in social situations, but also in academic and professional settings.

To worsen matters, when they did end up in hot water as a result of that naivete, they often chalk it up to the women and/or school/workplace authorities twisting the language around and using “lawyerly tricks” to give them a hard time and keep them down in favor of those who were less competent, but more socio-economically well-connected and/or more effective at BS artistry. 

* Fellow classmates at an urban public magnet high school and were highly gifted in math and science, but atrociously horrid with actual communication and language skills….though they were somehow savvy enough to fool the college board and college admissions officers.

Comment #63: exholt  on  06/15  at  01:14 AM

I snuck away from the gals (GAH, my MIL and mother! With others, gabbing about who knows what…) and went out with the boys- much more fun!

I too am one of those that would rather be out back discussing politics, drinking scotch, smoking cigars, and having meaningful and exciting conversation ... I might be ‘with child’ but I certainly am not giving up meaningful conversation to only talk about teh babiez.

Yeah, geez, women are so boring. I can’t stand having to talk to women. I much prefer the company of men, who are much more interesting. Good thing I’m one of those exceptional women who likes to talk about interesting things.

Comment #64: chingona  on  06/15  at  01:25 AM

louise, I assume you’ve pointed out to him that it’s 100% HIS FAULT that you were girls. wink

But good people can slip into unconscious gender roles very easily.

Right. That’s what I was alluding to with the driving thing. It’s easy to say oh, you know, he likes to drive, and not wonder why he has the better car (maybe because being a man he makes more money, but also because, as a man who is going to do more of the driving, he is more invested in a better car). And it IS part of the unconscious gender roles in American culture - the man does most of the driving. Not because he flexes his chest and says “Woman, get away from that steering wheel,” but because it’s simply accepted as part of the cultural background noise.

I think about driving because it was the first same-sex relationship I had that really brought that home to me. All of a sudden, there was no unwritten rule about who drove, who paid, who did what tasks. Which made things super interesting when I was next in a relationship with a man - all of a sudden I was upsetting the script he wasn’t even aware he was following, but was highly upset (in a way he couldn’t place) if I went off-message.

Comment #65: mythago  on  06/15  at  01:25 AM

For those of you who are loving the wallowing in the “hard-wired” strategy, have a go at Richard Morgan’s 13!
http://www.amazon.com/Thirteen-Richard-K-Morgan/dp/0345485254/ref=ed_oe_h

It has Jesusland in it!  With the west coast and the north-east having broken off!

Comment #66: shah8  on  06/15  at  03:27 AM

Holy Christ.

This may be about the smartest post I’ve read on the internet on sociology in like forever.  I was reading it, and thinking to myself which bits I’d like to pull out to reference (and try to say something smart about), but good Lord, it’s kind of a target-rich environment.  As someone who grew up as a middle child (and one with some serious peace-maker sensibilities), your bit about how that plays into empathy hit me like a ton of bricks.  And the necessity of consensus for females in our culture was brilliant - if you’ve never read Barrington Moore on the structure of rural life in Japan, I recommend it, because it dovetails perfectly.  Anyway, heroine-worship aside, all I can say is that if all this crap is ‘hard-wired’ into us as infants, then there should be no differences among men (or women) in how they react to social situations. And since this is not the case, the mere fact of difference among members of the same gender is evidence that this is not a problem of genetics.  The very sentence that some men have a ‘female’ brain (and vice-versa) is self-refuting - the only reason I can see why this shit doesn’t get laughed out of court is that it buttresses patriarchical ideas of gender supremacy.

Long story short, Amanda, you should totally think about becoming an academic - the doctorate will give you the sort of legitimacy that these EvoBio chuckleheads have been abusing for so long, and the world will be better off for your work, I’d bet.  Just a thought.

Comment #67: Padraig  on  06/15  at  03:57 AM

“If your S.O. can’t take a request to stop for coffee, Jesus Christ, DTMFA.”

Because there’s absolutely no chance that a woman might be financially incapacitated to the point that she can’t DTMFA without ending up poor or homeless.  Seriously, it’s just like “why didn’t she just leave”.  Not every woman has the means to fend for herself.

Comment #68: Godless Heathen  on  06/15  at  05:12 AM

Chingona, you took the words right out of my mouth. I, too, like to booze it up while arguing about politics. I like to do this with other women.

But of course, all the women this person knows are probably baby-making drones who only talk about diaper-changing and nurturing. And it’s totally not sexist to be positive that you are the only intelligent and interesting woman in any given roomful of women. 

Women “gab” (about “who knows what”) and gossip, men have Meaningful Conversations. Jesus Christ.

Comment #69: sophonisba  on  06/15  at  06:13 AM

Hasn’t it already been debunked that women talk more than men? 

I’m not one of those women who will “gabble on 19 to the dozen” like the woman in the article says.  That doesn’t mean I don’t like hanging out with people who talk a lot.  Intelligent people of any gender who talk a lot give me something to listen to, and I’ll put in my 4 or 5 to the dozen.

One of the things that Tannen says women do more than men is intertalking—talking when other people are talking, in a “cooperative” way, finishing each others’ sentences, riffing of of others’ ideas sometimes before they’re fully spoken.  People who aren’t used to that kind of talking can feel as if they’re being talked over.  People who do this on a regular basis feel like they’re being made to sit still for a lecture and can’t wait to get the talking stick handed back over to them.

Comment #70: oldfeminist  on  06/15  at  06:48 AM

Ah mythago, had it been any other time than when I was driving him to bury my sister’s ashes, OH YEAH! wink

Seriously, couldn’t do it. He’s aged easily 20 years in the past 2- he knows his role in her dificult life and her death. And because I had told him when my girls were young that he could ONLY have a relationship with his only grand-children, he had to shape up in front of them. He has been 100% good to his word- he doesn’t drink EVER in front of them, does not swear/yell/berate Mom, and is in fact, a far better grandfather than he ever was a father.

I’m both proud of him for that and back of my mind pissed that all it took was one woman standing up to him and his bullying to whip him into shape and a decent human being…

Comment #71: louise  on  06/15  at  09:46 AM

MMmm, from my own personal experience, it’s not always a plus to hang out on the “guys’ side of the room” at parties.

The last 5-6 parties I went to with my ex-boyfriend, I hung out with the guys. Seemed like the right thing to do - the gals were all in non-technical careers (unlike me) and were all either pregnant or trying to get pregnant (unlike me) and we didn’t really have bunches in common. The guys, on the other hand, talked about topics that interested me, so I gravitated over there.

The biggest drawback, however, to being “one of the guys” is that, ultimately, you aren’t. Now that my boyfriend has broken up with me, I’m persona non grata to these men because you don’t acknowledge your bro’s evil ex-girlfriend as it is a) disloyal, b) uncomfortable, and c) you’re married so you aren’t supposed to be friends with single chicks anyway. I find myself wishing more and more that I had cultivated a closer relationship with the gals at these parties - at least I’d have a few more lunch dates in my free time. As it is, it’s a bit strange to call them up out-of-the-blue and ask to be friends now.

I sort of assumed that when I was married and pregnant, I’d get around to being friends with those women then. And I also sort of assumed that being “one of the guys” meant that I’d be treated the same as one of the guys. Wrong on both accounts. Ah well.

Comment #72: Faye  on  06/15  at  10:04 AM

My approach: “Charlie, stop the car at the next stop. I would like to get a coffee.”
“Oh, okay Louise. Good idea.”

Hehe.  For sure.  If you ask a “yes or no” question, don’t be disappointed if all you get in response is “yes” or “no”.

Comment #73: Notorious P.A.T.  on  06/15  at  11:08 AM

My nephew’s christening party, was very segregated. VERY. Men in the garage

Why the hell would anyone want to hang out in the garage?!?!?  What did they do, ask the bats what they thought about the oily rags?

Comment #74: Notorious P.A.T.  on  06/15  at  11:13 AM

I think that its important that we talk here not just about the way that parents influence our development in these matters, but also how our peers do. I’m a guy who does talk a lot, who does pursue empathy, who does keep female friends in addition to male friends. However, what I’ve learned is that patriarchal rules are maintained by women, as well as men.

What does it say when the amazing women on this board never mentioned the possibility that the women’s conversation might be more interesting than the mens’. Instead, we get the opposite, that the men are more fun…

Well, I’m the guy who, if a party splits up like that, likes to hang out in both rooms. And I think its worth noting that one isn’t inherently better than the other, and if they’re different, that’s the result of the actual people in the room. What IS different is how the people percieve you to be based on which room you’re in. Isn’t it clear from most of these examples that women are equal actors in maintaining patriachar systems! The men certainly aren’t judging the women who stays for cigars and port, but I’ll bet the women in the other room are. The men are happy to have the female company and find it attractive that she likes to talk about what they like to talk about. However, if a man joins the women in the other room, he is excepted there, but often sutley judged for not mixing it up with the men.

I went to liberal bastion school, and virtually all of my friends, male and female, are feminist. However, most of my female friends date men who are the kind of men who would say “no” to the “do you want coffee” request. I guess that my thesis is that this conditioning comes much more from your peers than from your parents, and that if women don’t want to deal with this BS, than that it may require actively making dating/friendship decisions based on this.

Ok, I realize that this turned into a little bit of a rant. For that i’m sorry. I’ve been traveling a lot recently, and have had too much time in the car to think…

Would appreciate feedback. Thoughts?

Comment #75: Patrick  on  06/15  at  12:00 PM

Well, this is interesting. I have little to no empathy (that is, ability to read other people’s emotions), I’m generally completely lost when it comes to small talk, and I most definitely would have missed the subtleties of that coffee question. I’m male, and according to this evo-psyche stuff, my experiences should be the norm for my sex. They most certainly are not. In fact, I had to be diagnosed with something (Asperger’s) in order to explain why I’m so “abnormal”. If every other male human on the planet were a high-functioning autistic (which is pretty much what these people think all men are), I don’t think I would felt so out of place for so much of my life.

Comment #76: Phil  on  06/15  at  12:18 PM

What does it say when the amazing women on this board never mentioned the possibility that the women’s conversation might be more interesting than the mens’.

Well, umm, I don’t wanna be an ass, but I did, actually.  Or really I said that at most parties I attend with peers, everyone talks to everyone about topics that are mutually interesting, and that if people started engaging in topics usually favored by the other gender, everyone would probably go along and not get bent out of shape.

Mythago and Chingona also called folks out for automatically assuming Teh Wimmen-Tawk would always be boring chatter.

I think nobody really wants to be that person who says, “Well, I don’t know what y’all are talking about, because I just love gabbing with my girls at sex-segregated social events.  I mean, how would I even know what to say to the men?  They’re all over there going on about political stuff which is way over my head, and besides, they sometimes smoke and drink.”  Partially because it just echoes what the (rather stupid) article says, and partially because I think some of us feel like that would be approving of or falling into gender roles that say that women should only enjoy talking about shoes and gossiping about boyfriends and/or babies.  Though obviously it’s a multi-faceted thing—I don’t think many people here really think that stereotypically feminine topics of conversation are inherently stupid or boring.

Comment #77: The Opoponax  on  06/15  at  12:30 PM

I think nobody really wants to be that person who says, “Well, I don’t know what y’all are talking about, because I just love gabbing with my girls at sex-segregated social events.  I mean, how would I even know what to say to the men?  They’re all over there going on about political stuff which is way over my head, and besides, they sometimes smoke and drink.” Partially because it just echoes what the (rather stupid) article says, and partially because I think some of us feel like that would be approving of or falling into gender roles that say that women should only enjoy talking about shoes and gossiping about boyfriends and/or babies.

I don’t think this is necessarily what you meant, but it seems those who are talking up their honorary male credentials are buying into this very dichotomy, that if you aren’t out with the boys, you’re talking about boyfriends and babies. You don’t have to be the person who says they love gossiping with their girlfriends at their sex-segregated social events just to say women can be and often are interesting.

I’m one of those whose social gatherings tend to be pretty mixed up, gender-wise, and conversations with women might be about politics and conversations with men might be about parenting. But I think most of us also know that even “stereotypically female” conversation topics are broader and more interesting than shoes and celebrity gossip. At large family events on my husband’s side of the family, I would rather be in the kitchen with the women (yes, I like my mother-in-law!) because the women are the heart and soul of that family (four sisters, descended from a strong, pioneer woman who held down the ranch after her husband was killed by a lightning strike), and it’s by talking to them that I really understand the family and it complicated dynamics. Or with my other friends who are mothers, yes, we talk about babies, but it’s not just “isn’t junior cute.” It’s also how to raise feminist men and women in our messed up society.

Comment #78: chingona  on  06/15  at  12:43 PM

Amanda, your readers here all just got a bit more stupid by taking your transferential reactions as discourse. Some heartfelt advice: you are a fine and valuable advocate for women and feminism, but please stay a safe distance from any topic related to science, biology, and especially psychology. You are digging yourself in deeper and deeper.

Comment #79: jcmiller  on  06/15  at  12:54 PM

You don’t have to be the person who says they love gossiping with their girlfriends at their sex-segregated social events just to say women can be and often are interesting.

I know, and said as much above.  In at least two separate comments, I believe.

The point I was making, mainly for Patrick’s benefit, is that I can see why the impulse is for nobody to admit that they sometimes just like hanging back and gabbing with their girls.  I think there are better ways to express this than to say, “well, duh, of course I would never want to talk to those boring icky girls!”, but I’m pretty sure that impulse the main reason that a lot of folks jumped to mention that they choose to buck social norms and go hang out with the guys. 

For what it’s worth, I actually do like participating in girltalk, whether at co-ed parties (sex-segregating or not), or in girl-only groups.  A couple of weeks ago I was at a picnic, and a bunch of us got onto a tear about the phenomenon of the Hypothetical Baby Name.  It was a fascinating conversation, on a lot of levels.  The guys of course refused to participate, which is a damn shame because there’s no way they don’t think about this stuff, and even if they couldn’t participate in the “well I really like the name Snarfleypants, I think that would be a great name for a kid…” aspect, it would have been interesting to hear them weigh in about all the issues that eventually came up.

Comment #80: The Opoponax  on  06/15  at  12:56 PM

Opoponax,

I thought I had read them all, but I may have missed a few comments…

Maybe my friends are abnormal, but I don’t find that drinking is gendered. I do find that what we drink is gendered. My guy friends are much more likely to pull out a bottle of scotch, but my female friends beat them to the wine every time. Same story with smoking…

Are your male friends are that much more likely to talk politics than your female ones? If anything, I’d say that inane car and sports talk is more common among men then shoe talk is among women, and that my male friends may talk politics, but my female friends do it better. I guess I was trying to say that the conversation thread seems to undervalue what women have to say. (though I totally get your response).

Also, I have female friends who are very proud of “being one of the boys,” but you’d never catch a straight man saying that he’s “one of the girls” and you’d never find a straight women who would want him to say that. I guess what I’m interested in is how we reprogram each other to be better feminists, and it seems that a lot of this has to do with not just how we raise our children, but how conduct ourselves socially.

Comment #81: Patrick  on  06/15  at  12:56 PM

jcmiller said:
Amanda, your readers here all just got a bit more stupid by taking your transferential reactions as discourse. Some heartfelt advice: you are a fine and valuable advocate for women and feminism, but please stay a safe distance from any topic related to science, biology, and especially psychology. You are digging yourself in deeper and deeper.

JC, Are you an “evopsyche scientist” or something?  Amanda easilly shoots holes in the pretentious and fact-challenged blather of evo-psyche, which appeals to some of the scientists and engineers posting here.

Comment #82: happyfungirl  on  06/15  at  01:26 PM

I don’t find that drinking is gendered. I do find that what we drink is gendered. My guy friends are much more likely to pull out a bottle of scotch, but my female friends beat them to the wine every time. Same story with smoking…

I was sending up the stereotype, not stating a point of fact or personal experience.  The common stereotype about men and women and drinking, which you yourself alluded to, is that women drink “lighter” kinds of alcohol than men do.  Drinks that are sweet and not very potent, like white wine or amaretto sours or something.  Whereas men like “real” alcohol, whether hard liquor taken straight or strong and dark beers.  Or, as alluded to upthread, “guys like port and cigars” vs. “women can’t really participate in the port-and-cigars universe, like if for instance they are pregnant or have small children underfoot”, especially as this sort of thing leads to a physical segregation at a party because the men need to physically go away to enjoy their port and cigars because Teh Delicate Wimmin can’t handle it.

Are your male friends are that much more likely to talk politics than your female ones? If anything, I’d say that inane car and sports talk is more common among men then shoe talk is among women, and that my male friends may talk politics, but my female friends do it better. I guess I was trying to say that the conversation thread seems to undervalue what women have to say. (though I totally get your response).

I have this sneaking suspicion that you have not actually read many of the comments.  Which is OK, I guess, except that it’s kind of lame to tar every commenter with the same brush when it’s pretty obvious that you didn’t read most of them.

you’d never catch a straight man saying that he’s “one of the girls” and you’d never find a straight women who would want him to say that.

I’m not sure this is actually true.  I think it’s part and parcel with the stereotypes we’ve been discussing, but I have plenty of male friends who are potentially interested in engaging in stereotypically feminine topics.  It doesn’t happen as a rule, but yeah, I know plenty of straight guys who can hold their own on fashion, home decor, pop culture, and similar “girl stuff”.  I also know lots of straight guys who do the same kind of “gossip” that women engage in, maintaining social networks by shooting the shit about who’s dating who, how so-n-so’s doing in her new job, etc.  The last party I attended (the abovementioned picnic, I think), I got into a long conversation of that type with an ex-boyfriend of mine, chatting about mutual friends he’s kept in closer touch with who are now expecting their first kid.  The ability to engage in “girltalk” is something I definitely respect in a man, and would demand in any man I would attach myself to in any real way.  In fact, I’d go as far as to say that I’d be irritated with male friends who refused to engage in the full spectrum of conversational styles.

Comment #83: The Opoponax  on  06/15  at  01:54 PM

Except when men do it, it’s not “gossip”. And I do have to agree with Patrick; there are plenty of guys who can knowledgeably discuss fashion, pop decor, etc., but it’s not a badge of coolness and Rising Above One’s Unfortunate Gender for a man to say that he wandered away from the boring-O men’s area at the party to go hang with the ladies who are so much deeper. (Unless he’s doing it to ingratiate himself and get laid, in which case, fist pound, bro!)

Comment #84: mythago  on  06/15  at  02:32 PM

Ouch, on the comment reading. I did read through them before I commented, though I didn’t start thinking about my own comment until I was most of the way through them. I probably should have reread them once I knew that i had something I wanted to say, though I don’t think I was that far off base.

For the record I think that the drink choice stereotype can be very true, but only because there is huge social pressure on men to like beer and hard liquor (which are aquired tastes) and that particular social pressure isn’t applied to women in a comparable way.

But the last part is the one that I’d glad we’re talking about. As a straight man who was raised a feminist, I’ve tried to live accutely sensitive to the rules of patriarchy in society. One thing I’ve obsurved, is that it is heavily discouraged by most men and women, for a straight man to not be “masculine.” I’m not saying that this necissarly compares to the pressure on women to be “feminine,” but what I was struck by was the degree to which the pressure to be masculine came from both genders. So I’m curious, the complaint the monosylobic guy in the car seems, to me, to be evidence of self-selection of men lacking emphathy.

I really don’t get people like the commenter above who laments that her boyfriend’s male friends were off in one room, and their boring wives were in another. I don’t understand why she would date someone who A) had only friends with boring significant others, and B) had parties that so frequently broke down by room on gender lines. But Faye’s comment is really reflective of a lot of young feminists that I went to school with. I guess that I feel that I don’t quite understand why that wouldn’t be a deal-breaker immediatly.

fyi, I’m really happy to be told if i’m off base. I’m not trying to make assertions, but to reflect on what has been my experience.

Comment #85: Patrick  on  06/15  at  02:44 PM

it’s not a badge of coolness and Rising Above One’s Unfortunate Gender for a man to say that he wandered away from the boring-O men’s area at the party to go hang with the ladies who are so much deeper.

I think, though, that this is going back to stereotypes about the general rule of the wider non-feminist American culture, which is not so much what Patrick seemed to be talking about.  Patrick, as far as I can tell, is talking about our individual lived experiences and why we enforce all these gendered social systems on an individual basis, within our own circles.  To which I can personally answer that, to be honest, most of these stereotypes just don’t apply to my group of friends most of the time.

Comment #86: The Opoponax  on  06/15  at  02:49 PM

...though I don’t think I was that far off base.

The only part I thought was off base was that you seemed to think that the commenters in this thread were united in our approach to and opinions about gender-segregating social gatherings.  Which couldn’t be further from the truth.  For instance, you said:

What does it say when the amazing women on this board never mentioned the possibility that the women’s conversation might be more interesting than the mens’.

The amazing women in this board did, in fact, mention a lot of other approaches besides “ew, girl talk is lame.”  Including at least one statement (mine) mentioning that men participating in girl talk was perfectly acceptable in their social circle. 

Which sort of made me feel invisible, or like you were cherry-picking in order to cast all the women participating here as “wrong”, and you as the True Feminist Man with the “correct answer”.  Which is annoying, to be perfectly frank.

Comment #87: The Opoponax  on  06/15  at  02:56 PM

The only part I thought was off base was that you seemed to think that the commenters in this thread were united in our approach to and opinions about gender-segregating social gatherings.  Which couldn’t be further from the truth.

That certainly wasn’t my goal, so I apologize for that being the effect. I definitely did not mean suggest that there was one approach posted about the issue. Clearly there is a wide variety of viewpoints posted above. I’d love to take back the offending language, if that’s possible. I was surprised that Faye and a few other’s comments hadn’t spurred a particular response, but the “what does it say…never mentioned…” language was admittedly inaccurate and poor rhetoric. I still am glad we’ve been discussing the issue, but I absolutely no longer think that the women on this board were silent on it.

Which sort of made me feel invisible, or like you were cherry-picking in order to cast all the women participating here as “wrong”, and you as the True Feminist Man with the “correct answer”.  Which is annoying, to be perfectly frank.

All I can say is that it wasn’t my intent. I wanted to chime in with an opinion, I wanted feedback. I did not want to suggest that I had the “correct answer.” I really like lively discussions and need to remind myself not to be careless. Ironically, one of the reasons I read this blog and others and was posting, is because I really think that we need more discussion of the appropriate roll for feminist men to take in the feminist movement both in politics and in their own social lives.

And last, to mythago’s post, and The Opoponax’s response: One of the things I was trying (and failing) to get at, was that often my circle of (self identified) feminist friends (male and female) fail to differentiate themselves from the wider non-feminist American culture (as much as I’d hoped they would) on issues like these. I mean that they, too, seem to value higher a girl who hangs with the guys than a guy who hangs with the girls. Now, they do that much much less than society as a whole, but it still disappoints me when I see it.

I hope that this is coherent. I’m more of a blog reader than writer, so its an unfamiliar format for me…

Comment #88: Patrick  on  06/15  at  04:44 PM

I’d love to take back the offending language, if that’s possible.

It’s cool.  I think it’s just a misunderstanding, like many similar ones that arise due to the blog comment format of the discussion.

Comment #89: The Opoponax  on  06/15  at  05:12 PM

Also, I have female friends who are very proud of “being one of the boys,” but you’d never catch a straight man saying that he’s “one of the girls” and you’d never find a straight women who would want him to say that. I guess what I’m interested in is how we reprogram each other to be better feminists, and it seems that a lot of this has to do with not just how we raise our children, but how conduct ourselves socially.

One of my college roommates was a straight male who effectively said he preferred the company of females over that of males because he was fed up with all the BS macho posturing of most of the males back home.  Moreover, the fact our college was considered one of the best GLBT-friendly campuses* and students were adamantly against adhering to mainstream American social norms meant that roommate felt comfortable to openly express that to everyone in our small dorm during a late night hangout at the dorm lounge than he would have had he went to some of the more mainstream universities on his college application list. 

* Just like many progressives and those on the radical-left of the political spectrum won’t be caught dead applying to conservative colleges such as Bob Jones or Liberty U…..most right-wing conservatives would not be caught dead applying to my undergrad institution….eliminating most of those who are inclined towards enforcing rigid gender roles and ideas on others.

Comment #90: exholt  on  06/15  at  06:55 PM

Opoponax - just to clarify - I clearly didn’t word that right - I understood what you were getting at - I just was concerned that it left open the possibility that someone could interpret it as an excuse for dissing female company and I wanted not to cancel or dispute your point but to add that it’s not an excuse.

It’s interesting how just a few comments can make you think an idea is dominating a comments thread. Like Patrick, I had this overall impression that lots of commenters were claiming honorary male status, and it was only when I went looking for examples for my snark in my original post that I realized it was only a few people.

Comment #91: chingona  on  06/15  at  11:29 PM

And the amount of gender pressure put on children from birth on is unbelievable. When my daughter, as a toddler, would do toddler-type things like grab toys or shriek, people glared, and smiled gratefully if I corrected her. When my son did the EXACT SAME THINGS, people cooed and said “Oh, no, that’s okay,” sometimes actually interfering with my correcting him (“It’s all right, Parsleigh, let the cute little boy have the truck now.”)

Because I don’t have kids or even babysitting experience, I am hesitant to mention this to parents, but at the same time I know I don’t want to live in the world they’re making, and should address them.

Apologies if this is a double post.

Comment #92: Grammar RWA  on  06/16  at  02:48 AM

As usual, I come too late to a great conversation.  But that fits right in with the topic here, as I am one of those who doesn’t fit in well with my all-female team.  I get in trouble with them constantly because I am not good at the relationship-building chatter:  sooner or later it becomes painfully obvious that I haven’t noticed their favorite color, or can’t remember what degree they have, or I forgot their middle child’s name, and they get all pissy about it.  Maybe I should be working harder at it, but dammit, I’m trying to get some *work* done here and while I don’t mind passing the time once in awhile, my head is full of my actual *job*.

Comment #93: Roving Thundercloud  on  06/16  at  07:51 PM

Patrick, this isn’t really meant to be as harsh as it might sound, but if I had a nickel for every relationship “deal breaker” I’ve seen posted online, I’d be a millionaire.

Bottom line is, it’s hard enough to find someone you LIKE these days, without breaking up with them because “all their guy-friends’ wives aren’t in technical careers like me”. My god, just finding a freakin’ Democrat is difficult where I live, so I resist being too picky.

However, since the man in question DID break-up with me and crush my heart into powder, I suppose it would have worked out the same in the long run. But you never know.

Comment #94: Faye  on  06/18  at  06:30 PM
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