This isn’t to say there aren’t women who cry to manipulate.  My mother told me this story:

My mother was one of those women who as a teenager learned how to cry to manipulate.  Apparently, on her wedding day, her mother told her new husband (my father) about this.  A couple days after the wedding, they were discussing something, and my mother attempted to turn on the waterworks to try to manipulate my father into agreeing.  He just laughed and said something like “your mother said you’d try that.”  That was the last time my mother tried crying to manipulate, and they’ve been happily married for over 53 years now.

I think you mean that women are discrETE individuals, not discrEET.

And the first comment out of the box: No, really, women are first class actresses who use their powers in bafflingly limited ways, instead of going for that Oscar!

And that’s really sweet, that story about marital dysfunction.  We all get along better if we realize women are silly and don’t deserve to be taken seriously, don’t we?

In Spencer Morgan’s defense, do you know how hard it is to find stuff to write about in New York? I mean, nothing happens there and yet there are all these dumb broads leaking their emotions in the middle of the street. What the hell else is he supposed to write about?

Women cry simply to manipulate, right?

Thanks for the rant.  I must live in a cry-free bubble, though—where are all the crying women in my town?  I see maybe one public cryer a year, if that.

The only time I cried in public was after a breakup, standing at a pharmacy counter waiting for a birth control script refill.  It was literally the day after the breakup and I remember I could barely speak without verging on a sob.  The idea that this was something I wanted to happen—for attention—really fucking grates.  It was mortifying. The last thing I wanted was to be seen losing my shit.  It would never occur to me that another adult in that position would want otherwise.

Thanks for a more lucid, compassionate take.

I’ve always been made to feel that I am never to express my anger, so when I do get angry, the only option open to me is crying

Wait—amend.  I have cried in public more than that once time…at funerals.  I wonder where on the grid that squares with McHater?

I will bet you a million dollars that if this guy sees women screaming on the street, having angry fights, like guys do, he’d be horrified! And talk about those Crazy Bitches who scream all the time. There is no expression of emotion that some douche, somewhere, won’t complain about when women do it.

One time at the airport a woman in her twenties was crying as she waited for her plane, talking softly on a cell phone.  I got her a tissue from the desk.  “Thank you,” she said with a plain gratitude.

It’s embarrassing to me, but as I grow older I often feel teary on a weekly basis, often at the most ridiculous scenarios, like decent television commercials or the movies.  I have no idea where this came from, I wasn’t remotely like this when I was younger.

I hate seeing adults crying, they’re in a terrible space when it happens, it can’t be good.  Life can be brutally hard sometimes, especially when humans so foolishly go out of their way to make it so.

Years ago, I routinely cried in the car. Home was stressful, and I didn’t like my job, and often, the commute in the car was my only time alone to process all that shit. New York women don’t have cars to block out the rest of the world, so perhaps the only time alone they have is in a crowd.

I come from a family of criers—my mom, my grandpa, my sister, my brother and I all tend to cry when we’re feeling sad or angry or scared.  I’m the most stoic one, so I only tend to well up.  However, I have sobbed in my car, in public restrooms, at my desk at my job.  And I’ve hated it every single time.  It’s embarrassing, which tends to pile shame on top of whatever other emotion I’m feeling, which predictably makes me cry more. 

Sure, there’s probably a person or two out there who uses tears as a ploy for attention.  But I’d wager that most people who break down in public aren’t—they’re genuinely unhappy, to the point where, despite public disapproval, they can’t keep it contained.  It’s a bad place to be, and I can’t think of anything I want less than a perfect stranger to accost me and ask me if everything’s okay.  What I want is a friend or a family member, not some dude with white knight syndrome thinking that I need protection.  Ugh.  (Although there’s a plain difference between a kindly meant gesture, like paradox getting someone a tissue, and Morgan using someone else’s distress as entertainment or a chance for an ego boost.)

Or, shorter me:  Morgan’s a douche.

Yeah, I cry at the drop of a hat, too, and in my experience, that tendency is related to an overall inability to conceal my emotions or deceive in any way.  I’m a very WYSIWYG person, which isn’t a bad thing necessarily, but I’d often rather be able to deceive by hiding my emotions and really hate having my inability to deceive be called manipulative.

For sure, paradox’s gesture is the only appropriate one—-one that respects someone’s privacy, and exhibits genuine care, not making someone else’s pain All About You.

I was happy yesterday that it was raining as I schlepped home on THE FRAKKING BUS after getting into a snit with my boyfriend while being on my period and having a terrible headache and things generally not being all right with the world, because that way I could pretend that anyone who saw me crying would probably think it was just the cold and rain making my face look like that. 

I’m not much of a crier, but I will cry if I’m angry enough, especially if I’m already in a bad mood or feeling otherwise vulnerable (sick, tired, physically uncomfortable).

I’m also a crier.  Anything the slightest bit sad will often set me off, and if I’ve recently had a fight with the husband or been frustrated by something or really felt any strong emotion at all, I cry.  Books, movies, sad stories, songs, whatever—I cry.  There are even a few scenes out of a couple of particular movies and books that set me off just thinking about them.  It’s kind of fucking ridiculous and I wish I could stop, but it seems to be just the way I’m built. 

And, like you Amanda, I think it comes from a complete inability to conceal any emotions.  Whatever I happen to be feeling at any given moment is written all over my face.  I also can’t lie worth shit.

The husband, on the other hand, never cries.  In 13 years together, I think I’ve seen him cry maybe twice.  He didn’t even tear up when our kids were born.

Ms. Kreamer’s research helps illuminate a prevalent strain of gushers who cheapen the tears of others and represent a nuisance to the population as a whole

It’s nice to see this misogynistic notion spelled out so concisely.  I always felt weird about male exes who accused me of crocodile tears or of “crying wolf” anytime I cried in front of them - that me crying during an argument somehow cheapened “real” tears and was meant merely to exact sympathy and not because I might, y’know, actually be upset.  But I couldn’t really put my finger on whether and why it was sexist until now.  Thanks Spencer!

I cry all the time. I cried once when my kindergarten teacher told me I cried too much.  I know my grandfather was a notorious crier as well; I wonder if there’s some kind of genetic component?

Anyways, I have definitely cried in public, and most times I was embarrassed, but sometimes I’m just too sad to care.  I think it’s much more humiliating to have cried at work and school, where people form a negative opinion of you because you “can’t control your emotions.” 

I’m wondering how many people cry for reasons other than sadness? I can control feelings of sadness, but I usually find I cry when I’m mortified or feel shamed or extremely frustrated or angry.  I think I cry more than other people because those feelings bubble to the surface immediately. I think lots of people simmer and only realize how they feel when they’re a safe distance from the situation.

I wish I could cry less though; it’s definitely hurt me at different points in time.

My husband cries too, but for different reasons. One time he cried when he remembered the show Perfect Strangers. And just last night, he felt like crying because I was giving away some dolls I had for a while.  But what’s weird is that he can really really sob for several minutes, but he just doesn’t produce tears as freely as I do. I wonder how common tearless sobbing is?

I lost my fiance in October to the slow disease that was eating away at her over the past 8 years.  We were going to be married this year in May.  I cry in public more often than others and I routinely get cajoled by family and friends to not do that.  I tell them I don’t care about what other want, I want to cry because that is just how I feel.  I’m sure some look at me in disgust but crying is a private moment between the person crying and their emotions.  I’m sure some people do use it as a manipulative tool, but to think the vast majority of women use it as a tool is just silly. 

By the way, the first comment out the gate was a statement followed by an anecdote.  The commenter didn’t attempt to belittle the argument as a whole, merely stating that the manipulators do exist but I am sure if they were questioned would admit most don’t do that.  I’m not defending or agreeing, I am merely saying attacking them for relaying a personal experience to destroy their view is counterproductive.

“Women do cry a lot more, and who knows what accounts for that, if it’s hormones or social conditioning or both?  (My money’s on that it’s social conditioning, since I know women who don’t cry much or ever, and I doubt their hormone levels are any different than the rest of ours.) “

How do you know that?  Hormones vary within the genders, and it can account for differences in behaviour.  Like this:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE57N59120090824

Female traders are more likely to have higher testosterone levels than average women. 

Or another example:
http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/babiespregnancy/pregnancy/article/726401—does-exposure-to-plastics-make-boys-less-masculine

Boys whose mothers were exposed to phthalates (chemicals which mimick estrogen) during pregnancy were more likely to play with stereotypically female toys and less like to play with stereotypically male toys.

More and more evidence is showing that hormones have an effect on our gendered behaviour, either through exposure to these during fetal development or through variation on these hormones later in life.

The anecdote is a classic in the annals of family lore: Comical retelling of stories where men exert their dominance over women and teach them submission, but it’s funny!  Because women are so silly to think it could ever be any other way!

The notion that women are born manipulators who have to be put in their place is a misogynist fable that exists for two reasons: To justify dominating women and to belittle the things women often have to do to survive. The cuteness of these stories doesn’t make them better.  Most of the pre-feminist era tales of women’s manipulation are, if you look at them analytically at all, often sad stories of the lengths women have to go to in order not to be completely crushed.

What paradox at #13 said is just right. I noticed a girl on the subway crying, and I just gave her some tissues and went back to my book. And I’ve cried on the subway as well—after getting laid off from a job I really liked. It was embarrassing and awful and all I wanted was to be ignored until I could lock the emotions down.

So yes, this guy is a real douche. No one *wants* to lose control in public, but sometimes it happens when life is stressful.

“I’ll point out that men being trained to suppress their “weak” emotions like sadness and stress isn’t really so great for men.  Probably has a lot to do with why women live longer.”

Nope, it’s because of a delay in the onset of cardiovascular disease.

That first comment from James is SO incredibly douche-y.  His poor mother has basically been crapped on by her own mother, her own husband, and now her own son—and to make matters worse, both father and son are smugly congratulating themselves about how this woman was put on her place. Lovely.  Looks like James learned misogyny at his father’s knee—and at his own mother’s expense.

I have cried during conflicts with my (now-ex) boyfriends and with my (current) husband.  And yes, there is some decision-making involved.  I can choose try to hide my crying (by perhaps leaving before the tears hit) or let the other person see my tears.  If I deliberately let the other person see it, it is for two reasons: (1) I am presumably close to this person so I shouldn’t have to hide shit; and (2) My concerns are probably being dismissed and my tears are a way to communicate how important the issue is to me, when other forms of communication have failed. (Tears in my experience are often a response to frustration, especially during a fight, i.e. a response to the sense of not being heard or being treated dismissively.) I suppose you can characterize this as “manipulation” if you are generally hostile to me and my gender, but you can just as easily characterize it as legitimate.  The value judgment someone like James’s mother’s relatives put on it really just reflect their lack of respect for her.

Like other forms of supposed female manipulation (such as passive-aggressive behavior), tears are often last resort because women are still often not taken seriously when we simply ask for what we want in a straightforward way.

Stress has no relationship to blood pressure, in your pseudo opinion?

I cry a lot. I’ve cried in public several times, and I usually cry not out of sadness, but anger or frustration or just plain hormones (do NOT see a movie like Up when you’re 41 weeks pregnant). Of course my abusive mother trained me to half believe that my crying is only to manipulate, to the point that when I was sick and broke down in the doctor’s office after weeks of tests and no help, I immediately assumed those tears weren’t legitimate and I was subconsciously trying to manipulate her.

Abuse is fucked up.

I always find attention makes me cry harder because I was sad and now I’m sad and humiliated.

Unless one sees blood or anything to indicate a real emergency, the New Yorker’s policy is to not engage a crier—if possible, to ignore him or her completely.

Well, yeah, Spencer—it’s NYC, where that’s the smart response to any street drama. If a strange woman’s crying in the street, I find it safest to assume that she either doesn’t want my input, or (more rarely) does want my attention because she’s running some sort of short con. What I don’t see it as is a pick-up opportunity, which is what Spencer Morgan seems to think it is:

On my way into the cleaners, I noticed a woman with lots of tattoos, sitting on some stairs with her cat in a travel box. She looked sad and was intently staring at nothing in particular. The signs were there. But after a few minutes there was no additional glaze or puffiness about the eyes, so I gave up waiting.

Yeah, it’s clear what Prince Charming was waiting for: “C’mon, baby, cry so I can swoop in and we can meet-cute, just like in that indie rom-com I saw.”

New York is a big city; at any point in time, you’re going to be encountering people that are having unusual experiences.  Crying is just the tip of that iceberg.

True, but we’re talking about a woman making herself vulnerable, and Morgan’s all over exploiting that opportunity, even if he doesn’t quite know how to go about it (which likely explains the pissy tone of the article). I doubt that Morgan would go on like this about the spectacle of one guy chasing another down the street with a baseball bat, which was a regular if infrequent treat for me when I was living in the city.

All this goes directly to the public anonymity that’s such a great part of living in NYC (or most big Eastern cities): most people either don’t bloody care about your personal drama or see it as entertaining street theatre, so you can generally go to town with the public displays (if that’s your thing) without an opportunistic douchebag like Spencer Morgan pestering you.

In NYC, people are faced with the fact that they have less personal space at home, and while outdoors they will be surrounded by thousands of people. A lot of “private” behavior, like crying, talking on the phone, or arguing is going to be going on in public. That’s it. The appropriate reaction is to allow people to have their privacy when it comes to things that don’t concern you.

More and more evidence is showing that hormones have an effect on our gendered behaviour, either through exposure to these during fetal development or through variation on these hormones later in life.

Except that we don’t know exactly how those hormonal differences map to behavior or personality traits.  Especially in adults, because we’ve already had decades to marinate in the culture we’re born into—by the time 28 year old me is crying in the back of the B62 on a rainy frigid day in January, it’s too late to know whether I’m doing it because of hormones I was exposed to in the womb*, or because this is something I’ve been exposed to all my life living in gendered American culture. 

*Or, shit, even hormones I’m being exposed to right now - this is going to get me crucified here at Pandagon, but someones your period can lower your threshold of pain, both emotional and physical.

To make things worse, masculine forms of trying to get your way in a conflict are never called manipulative in my experience, though often the person displaying them has a lot more control.  It’s a lot easier to avoid overtalking, bullying, dismissing contemptuously, screaming, and threatening to cut off support than it is to avoid crying.  Some of those are hard to avoid when you feel provoked, but all of them are easier than to stop crying.

Also, Peter, you are making the classic mistake of assuming hormones only cause, but in reality, hormones are also responsive.  Gendered behaviors and cues are known to affect hormone levels and even brain development.  If men and women were expected to act the same, it would show up in their bodies.  Just a fact, not a recommendation or anything.

I cry out of frustration, when I feel trapped and I can’t find an alternative to whatever is bothering me.  Or when other people cry BECAUSE I HAVE EMPATHY, SPENCER MORGAN, YOU MIGHT TRY IT SOMETIME.

I remember one night in particular where everything seemed to be going wrong.  I was fighting with my ex, arguing with my parents, struggling in a class I wasn’t sure I could pass, and had to stop at the gas station to gas up my car and couldn’t find my wallet after I filled up the tank.  I went in to explain, apologize, and give them some kind of collateral to show I would be back to pay, and my eyes were red and watery because I’d clearly been crying.  The guy behind the counter clearly noticed I had been crying, and as opposed to ignoring me or making light or trying to avoid embarrassment by not talking about it, he asked me outright if I was safe, if anyone was hurting me, and if I needed any help.  I remember thinking even then how politically forward it seemed to be to direct a question like that head-on to a complete stranger, but I really, really appreciated the concern.

Ah, we’re now on a slippery path towards evopsych hackery, thanks PeterZeroOne. Those studies are so equivocal and unrevealing that I’m not sure what they tell us.  For instance:
““They’re playing in more gender neutral ways – the sports were quite neutral, for instance,” said Swan.”
What does that even mean? How do you quantify “gender neutral”? Also, assessment of this behavior was done via a survey, a notoriously problematic method.  And the leap from pthalates mimicking hormones in the human body, to altering embryo development, to altering very culturally determined things like forms of play, and then to use that to suggest that that women crying because of hormones is plausible? Just too many leaps of logic in there.

As for the saliva testosterone levels, that’s also not very revealing.  Circulating levels of hormones may be a very rough indicator of your levels over all, but your levels in different tissues can vary dramatically. What you’d really want to know is: how are their receptors in their brain, nervous system, etc. responding to the testosterone?  And it’s also possible to increase your testosterone levels by working out, or changing your environment, so maybe these women raised their testosterone levels as part of the job—simply by being in a male-dominated field, for instance.

Multiple studies have shown that crying frequency and reasons for crying vary tremendously across cultures, so before we say it’s got a hormonal component, I’d look at when the culture says it’s OK to cry for different genders, and when the culture says it’s NOT OK. I suspect that women have less leeway to show anger, frustration, or hostility, so their response is funneled into the one form of expression they’re allowed to show. Like this article suggests.

And by the way, in the past, denigrating criers was not just about misogyny, it was also a way for white people to look down on people of the “lower races,” whatever that means.

(do NOT see a movie like Up when you’re 41 weeks pregnant)

I took the kids to see that last summer and I was crying so hard at the beginning of the movie (seriously, that should have come with a warning or something because I was expecting the standard Pixar animated comedy) that I scared my 4 year old.  Poor kid was freaked out at my crying and I had to reassure him that mama was just sad because of the movie and that I was fine.

just plain hormones (do NOT see a movie like Up when you’re 41 weeks pregnant)

Or maybe “do NOT see Up at all if you don’t like crying” - even the very stoic dudely dude friend of mine I went to see Up with cried during the first part.  The only people who could possibly not be moved by that are the sorts of people who laugh when puppies die.

I absolutely hate the “women cry to manipulate” meme.  My ex pulled that on me all the time.  If he upset me, I was merely crying to manipulate him and not worth listening to. He was supportive only when others caused my pain.  Essentially this led to a very unhealthy relationship where my feelings were not acknowledged or considered.

People use tears to manipulate. People use cold logic to manipulate. The lesson would seem to be that people manipulate.

“Also, Peter, you are making the classic mistake of assuming hormones only cause, but in reality, hormones are also responsive.  Gendered behaviors and cues are known to affect hormone levels and even brain development.  “

Yes, you’re quite right.  For example, married men have lower average testosterone levels than unmarried men.  There are two possible explanations - that either marriage lowers testosterone levels or that men who have lower testosterone levels are better able to form stable partnerships.

Nevertheless, hormonal effects on brain development in utero have been shown to affect gendered behaviour.  There is no social conditioning in the womb.  This implies that at least some gendered behaviour is pre-programmed. 

” If men and women were expected to act the same, it would show up in their bodies.  Just a fact, not a recommendation or anything.”

It’s not a fact, it’s one of the two possibilities.  It’s entirely possible that even in a world where there were no social pressures for gendered behaviour, women and men would still exhibit behavioural differences.  Of course, the idea that gender is a social construct is almost a sine qua non of feminism, so it’s not surprising that you’d lean towards this view.

Fuck.

Up had my 9 year old in tears.  I almost had to take him out, b/c it broke his heart.  He hates that movie b/c it’s so sad.  It was making me cry, too, but then I had to take care of him.

It’s worse than when Bambi’s mother dies.

Just don’t listen to the commentary on the DVD.  (Yeah, grandpa bought Nate the DVD for Christmas not realizing it would not go over well at all)  The directors seem to think that by keeping the house, the color magenta, pictures, and other indicators around, they’re keeping Ellie in the movie.

Ellie’s dead, you bastards.  You killed her.  She’s not the house.

As for misogynist comment #1…let’s pretend it’s true for the moment: if your mommy was such a manipulative bitch that she learned to cry on key, what makes you think she stopped being a manipulative bitch just b/c your dad didn’t ‘fall’ for the crying treatment?  He stood up to her once and she learned to submit and live happily in servitude thereafter?

Really?

She wouldn’t immediately switch to other passive-aggressive techniques?  Because the people you describe, the mother-in-law and the newlyweds, sound like miserable hateful people.  Miserable, hateful people don’t stop with the miserable hateful behavior b/c they’re stymied once.  They stay miserable and hateful until someone helps them or they get out of the miserable hateful situation that traps them.

But wimmin is stupid, amiright?  All that dumb crying don’t work on a REAL man.

The lesson would seem to be that people manipulate.

Nobody is disputing this.  Though I do think it’s up for debate whether crying is a well-established manipulation tactic. 

The only time I’ve ever seen someone use tears to manipulate was an argument with my little brother when we were like 10 and 6, where he slapped himself hard and started bawling, then ran to our mom and said I’d hit him (...and by the way, it was my turn to watch Transformers and The Opoponax didn’t even finish her homework anyway and… and… and…!).  I don’t think this is something most adults really do.

@ The Opoponax:

Nah.  I wept like a baby during Fantastic Four while I was on my period.  Because it was just so sad that the Thing’s wife left him and he was so lonely!  Show that movie to me any other part of the month, and I’ll laugh at how bad it is.  Those one or two days, though…I even welled up at a really stupid Taylor Swift song.

so, Amanda, you saying that NO women EVER cry to manipulate?  Ever?

Sounds like you are.  Which seems rather improbable, don’t you think?  We’ve all known people who cry to manipulate.  It’s probably genetically linked, after all, it’s a pretty effective survival adaptation. 

Oh, but I forgot, you think evolutionary biology is just a load of sexist hooey.  And besides, if women cry to manipulate, it’s really all the fault of men, right?

Tell you what, go read a good history of the Bronze Age, and then try to argue that evolutionary biology is hooey.

@ Karinna - ha!  I don’t remember if I had my period or not when this happened, but I once started sobbing at one of those maudlin Paula Cole songs from the late 90’s. 

I started buying the “periods make you feel weird” thing after I accidentally scheduled an appointment with my tattoo artist a day or two before starting mine.  The most fucking painful thing ever.  I thought I was going to die.  I cried like a baby.  I writhed in agony.  I bit my friend’s hand so hard I drew blood.  Tattoos hurt, but that was like “amputating your leg with no anaesthetic” pain, not needle pain.  On my way out after thoroughly humiliating myself in front of all the macho dudes getting bulldogs inked on their massive biceps, one of the female artists who’d witnessed the whole thing told me I’d probably be starting my period the next day.  She was right.

so, Amanda, you saying that NO women EVER cry to manipulate?  Ever?

Not to put words in Amanda’s mouth, but in my opinion, no, not really.  I mean, are there probably some sociopaths who will do that sort of thing?  Sure, I guess.  But it’s not something that most normal people do, no. 

And it’s certainly not something that one should assume about anyone - how exactly can you know that someone is only crying to manipulate you?  Assuming you know better about how others feel than they do is extremely shitty behavior.

I do the ‘tearing up when I’m frustrated/angry’ thing.  The best part is that when I start feeling watery, I get angry at myself for crying, which makes me even more frustrated, and makes it even harder to control.  Awesome.

The upshot is that I tend to have a lot of sympathy for other teary-eyed folks, including the couple of students I get every semester who get upset about their grades.  Are some of them simply inducing tears in a play for sympathy?  Probably.  But I’m pretty sure that others are in my boat—that is, they get frustrated at their own performance, at the situation, at the sense that they can’t control themselves, etc.  So usually I just say something sympathetic (I know it’s frustrating, this is a difficult and stressful time of year, etc.) and ask if they need a tissue or want to step out to the hallway or restroom for a moment.  Once things calm down a little, then we can resume the conversation about how their work didn’t quite meet the grading criteria.

I really don’t see any reason why I shouldn’t give them the benefit of the doubt by assuming that the emotions they display are genuine.  I don’t think we ever lose by treating other people as human beings.

No, Aurelius, Amanda is not saying that.

There are individuals of both genders that have cried to manipulate.  You know who else does?  My four year old nephew.  Scrapes his knee outside and the crying doesn’t start until he comes in the kitchen door and sees him mom.  That is crying for manipulation.  What Amanda is saying is that most of the times when a woman is crying in public, it is not with the specific goal of influencing the behavior of the men around her.  It is because she is sad.

Oh, probably should have noted that typically (though not always) it is female students who tear up like that.  Male students in that position tend to lean more toward righteous outrage.  Make special note of the fact that both are deeply emotional reactions—they’re just expressed slightly differently.

I love people who claim that human society is static and unchanging when we thought 60 years ago that pink was for boys, not for girls.  Now we have evo-psych studies that “prove” girls are naturally drawn to pink because of evolution.  Amazing how that evolutionary change happened in a mere 60 years!

For sure, paradox’s gesture is the only appropriate one—-one that respects someone’s privacy, and exhibits genuine care, not making someone else’s pain All About You.

I hadn’t thought about it this way, but it makes a lot of sense. Once I was alone in a hotel elevator with a woman who was sobbing, and I asked her “Are you ok?” She said, “Yeah, I’m ok.” But I can see how me asking her that question was not at all helpful.

Oh, but I forgot, you think evolutionary biology is just a load of sexist hooey.

No, she thinks evolutionary psychology is just a load of sexist hooey—and she’s pretty much correct (see tyro and t-ster and Mnemosyne ). The only people who lean on evo-psych studies, with their shoddy methodologies, seem to be male PUAs and female “Rules girls”—sexist snake-oil hucksters.

And Alkaloid is here to fill the necessary function of being the Man Who Explains Things.  Surely it will work this time, and the women will fold up their silly blogs and realize no one gives a shit what they have to say.  Just because mansplaining has failed to work all the other thousands of times that it’s been performed in this comment thread doesn’t mean that it won’t work this time.

<i>so, Amanda, you saying that NO women EVER cry to manipulate?  Ever? </a>

If I admit that there is one woman who manipulates with tears for every 500,000 people who worry about that, get angry with women for having inconvenient emotions, and assume that women are evil, manipulative bitches whose feelings can be safely disregarded, will you get off this strawman?  Doubt it, but I’ll try.

I cry easily even when I really, really don’t want to. I’ve cried in front of bosses at work twice - although one of those was when someone barged into my office without knocking and found me having what I’d hoped would be a private cry - and it’s excruciatingly embarrassing even thinking about it. Especially with all the misogynist attitudes surrounding crying. Am I giving colleagues an excuse to think of me as an irrational unprofessional hysteric? Or a coldly manipulative scheming bitch? That these are mutually exclusive won’t bother some people.

I’ve heard that people taking hormone treatments suddenly find they cry more often or find it harder to cry, so I wouldn’t be surprised if hormones had an effect. But as Amanda said, that certainly doesn’t rule out social conditioning as a hugely important factor, and - more importantly - so what? Crying doesn’t hurt or threaten anyone. It’s not like lashing out in anger or yelling - it’s more like swearing or coughing or laughing, none of which are seen as evidence of a shocking loss of control.

Among serious evolutionary scholars, it is completely uncontroversial that—while in principle it makes sense that human biological evolution has an enduring influence on human social behavior—“evolutionary psychology” as actually carried out right now is a complete pile of arrant horse shit.

Best story of mansplaining ever:

He kept us waiting while the other guests drifted out into the summer night, and then sat us down at his grainy wood table and said to me, “So? I hear you’ve written a couple of books.”

I replied, “Several, actually.”

He said, in the way you encourage your friend’s 7-year-old to describe flute practice, “And what are they about?”

They were actually about quite a few different things, the six or seven out by then, but I began to speak only of the most recent on that summer day in 2003, my book on Eadweard Muybridge, the annihilation of time and space and the industrialization of everyday life.

He cut me off soon after I mentioned Muybridge. “And have you heard about the very important Muybridge book that came out this year?”

So caught up was I in my assigned role as ingenue that I was perfectly willing to entertain the possibility that another book on the same subject had come out simultaneously and I’d somehow missed it. He was already telling me about the very important book—with that smug look I know so well in a man holding forth, eyes fixed on the fuzzy far horizon of his own authority.

Here, let me just say that my life is well-sprinkled with lovely men, including a long succession of editors who have, since I was young, listened and encouraged and published me; with my infinitely generous younger brother; with splendid male friends. Still, there are these other men too.

So, Mr. Very Important was going on smugly about this book I should have known when Sallie interrupted him to say, “That’s her book.” Or tried to interrupt him anyway.

Aurelius, evolutionary biology and evolutionary psychology are two distinct fields.

No, Aurelius, no woman ever cries to manipulate.  Also true:

No woman ever falsely accuses men of rape.
No woman ever physically abuses her partner.
No woman is ever physically weaker than a man.
No woman ever has an abortion on a whim.
No woman ever does ridiculous things to get a man to marry her.
No woman actually likes high heels and make up.
Women are perfect.  Feminists said so.

Feel better, now that you’ve exposed the lie of feminism?

Okay, I’ll confess that I’ll believe no woman gets an abortion on a whim, but it has little do with some silly belief that women are perfect (apparently the only reason that we could deserve equality!), and everything to do with the fact that medical procedures are whim-resistant, due to the amount of upfront time investment and cash outlay.

That a lot more men are likely to blow up in rage and scream and yell to the point where everyone’s uncomfortable isn’t taken as evidence that men are inferior or overly emotional, I’ll note.

To make things worse, masculine forms of trying to get your way in a conflict are never called manipulative in my experience, though often the person displaying them has a lot more control.  It’s a lot easier to avoid overtalking, bullying, dismissing contemptuously, screaming, and threatening to cut off support than it is to avoid crying.  Some of those are hard to avoid when you feel provoked, but all of them are easier than to stop crying.

Bingo.

Also lawl at alkaguy’s calling all that “cold logic”, as it’s all about a million times more emotional than any bout of crying, in addition to being overtly, deliberately manipulative.

Here, Denise, I’ll fix it to say what you really meant:

If any woman falsely accuses men of rape, that proves all rape accusations are false.
If any woman ever physically abuses her partner, that proves that all women are physically abusive.
If any woman is ever physically weaker than a man, that proves that all women are physically weaker than all men.
If any woman ever has an abortion on a whim, that proves that all women have abortions on a whim, even ones whose fetus has died.
If any woman ever does ridiculous things to get a man to marry her, then all women did ridiculous things to get men to marry them.
If any woman actually likes high heels and make up, then all women do and the ones who claim they don’t are lying.
If not all women are perfect, that proves that all women are intrisically bad.  Anti-feminists said so.

We would save a lot of time if you would just say these things for yourself, you know.

I thought Denise was being sarcastic. Was she not? Bother. I can’t tell droll from troll.

In my experience crying has a counter-productive effect on men, IF one is angling for sympathy. It offends them, because, they claim, women crying are being manipulative.  Fact is, the woman is sad or angry, the man is a clod.

I think she was being sarcastic, MissPrism.

Maybe.  Now I am cornfuzzled.

I just had to respond to that first post about how women do supposedly manipulate men with tears, and how precious it is when men put them in their place.  So I’ll respond with another anecdote.  I was involved in a very emotionally fraught relationship for a long time.  I cry easily; my SO, on the other hand, was someone who became enraged even more easily.  A typical argument went something like this:  my SO would lecture me in the most condescending and humiliating manner possible, then throw objects and slam walls.  Every time, I tried to remain calm, and every time, I broke down crying eventually.  It is at this point that my SO would grab me by the neck, drag me over to a mirror and tell me to look and assess honestly which one of us looks more like a crazy person.

I thought sarcasm too.

There’s a bizarre fear some men have of women crying, too. At a teaching course I attended, a frequent question from men about dealing with students in tutorials was “What do I do if one of them cries?!?” This was said with extreme agitation, as if asking “what if one of them falls becomes possessed by a demon?” or “what if one of them threatens me with a flamethrower?”

Our (female) instructor was refreshingly blunt with the answer: you offer a tissue, you ask if the student needs a minute to recollect h’self, and then you carry on as if nothing absolutely-fucking-terrifying or life-threatening has happened, that’s what. Because it hasn’t.

Ha!  It’s so true.

Up until the 1850’s, in European society it was considered fairly normal for men to cry -in public too!- and express (hetero) affection for each other by hugs, linking arms and other things Only Girls Do nowadays.  I read that the introduction of Germanic masculine culture (illustrated by their calling their country “Fatherland”) with Prince Albert that” Strong & Silent “became the Western masculine ideal.

Redisca - that’s truly chilling. All best wishes in getting beyond - I hesitate to say “over” - that hellish experience.

Or another example:
http://www.parentcentral.ca/parent/babiespregnancy/pregnancy/article/726401—does-exposure-to-plastics-make-boys-less-masculine

Boys whose mothers were exposed to phthalates (chemicals which mimick estrogen) during pregnancy were more likely to play with stereotypically female toys and less like to play with stereotypically male toys.

Might want to look at that article again. It actually states.

The affected boys did not display feminine qualities, such as increased play with dolls.

Emphasis mine.

And the leap from pthalates mimicking hormones in the human body, to altering embryo development,

Unfortunately that one is not really a leap.  Our environment is now lousy with pthalates as they are used in so many products to make plastics “soft” and to put scents in everything from floor cleaner to face moisturizer.  They are the chemicals that have been causing sex changes in fish and amphibians, now there is a boatload of evidence that they are causing genital changes in males across species, including humans.

Here is a info sheet and video of the Canadian documentary “The Disappearing Male”. 
http://www.cbc.ca/documentaries/doczone/2008/disappearingmale/chemicals.html

I watched it when it was originally aired, they do go a little overboard with the doom and gloom aspects but unfortunately I find that is typical with the average doc these days.

I really hate showing emotion.  I once yelled at my husband for looking at me when he heard me sniffle while we were watching a sad part of a TV show.  I feel like I’m a freak on display. 

Would anyone sane cry to win an argument or get her way if it meant she was going to be dismissed as emotional, therefore illogical, for the rest of her life?  I guess the presupposition there is that women aren’t sane or logical (because they’re emotional, amirite fellas).

Yep, anger is an emotion, too, but it’s patriarchy-approved! 

I despise those claims that depression is “just anger turned inwards,” as if depressed people just need to get good and pissed-off and then they’ll stop being such a drag.  Angry people can be a drag too.

It’s a lot easier to avoid overtalking, bullying, dismissing contemptuously, screaming, and threatening to cut off support than it is to avoid crying.  Some of those are hard to avoid when you feel provoked, but all of them are easier than to stop crying.
Comment #34: Amanda Marcotte on 01/18 at 11:30 AM

I can get into an overtalking/sarky mode where it’s hard to stop.  But it’s still easier to stop than crying.

I think one of the reasons some people attribute crying to manipulation is that the crying doesn’t last forever, and/or it’s about something “inconsequential” (like being dismissed for being female).  I can be crying one minute and pretty much okay the next, or shift to angry.  Someone who’s used to a less-mercurial emotionality may assume that the feeling isn’t real if it doesn’t last for hours and cause minor flooding.  Anyone who’s gone through real grief knows that you can sometimes laugh about something even in when you’re in the depths.

Crying can certainly be socially trained—there are some cultures where you’re expected to go into full-blown histrionics when certain things happen.  In others, you’re not supposed to show any emotion.  And most people in those cultures adhere to these conventions.

I always wonder why trolls like Aurelius seem to have such trouble grasping the idea that women are real, actual people with real, actual emotions, and that tears are valid expression of emotion.  Dude, if a woman is crying during an argument with you, chances are she’s pissed and frustrated, not trying to manipulate you into caving in (and thus losing your balls, or something).  Not to mention, how are a woman’s tears any less manipulative than a man getting in someone’s face and yelling?

@The Opoponax:  Owwwww!  I was a big baby when I got my tattoo—can’t imagine how painful it must have been when you’ve got a lowered pain threshold.  The only real trouble I’ve ever had with admitting that I’m a little more prone to being emotional during certain times of the month is that it feeds into the idea that women who are on their periods or PMS-ing are obviously irrational, when that’s not it at all.  I’m not more or less rational, it’s just easier for emotions and emotional narratives to touch me. /tangent.

Hypatia,

Sorry, you’re right.  I misquoted the article - the altered behaviour is less masculine, but not more feminine:
“The mothers of 145 youngsters had previously volunteered to be tested during pregnancy. Those boys born to women with higher levels of exposure to phthalates were less likely to play with toys like guns or trucks, or exhibit play behaviour typical of their gender, such as roughhousing or participating in sports.

“(The results) say to me that these phthalates have the ability to alter brain development in utero,” said Dr. Shanna Swan, the lead researcher.

The affected boys did not display feminine qualities, such as increased play with dolls. Instead, they acted in ways less typically masculine than peers whose mothers were not exposed to high levels of phthalates during pregnancy.”

This doesn’t really alter my larger point - hormone mimicking chemicals made the children’s brains less receptive to male play, which suggests that gender is not purely a social construct. 

I’m open to the idea that behaviour alters hormone levels, or at least creates some sort of a positive feedback loop with them.  The human brain is very plastic and adaptive, but at least according to what I’ve learned in my psychology class, there are limits to this.  “Nature” sets the boundary limits of what “nurture” can change.

In my experience, any man who declares that women cry in order to manipulate is an abuser.  I’ve heard women make a similar claim—but only in a lighter, less confident, semi-rueful or snarky way and only to impugn one woman in particular.  That’s nasty, and I call them on it; but it’s less of a big deal. 

People who say it with no levity, no kidding?  If you are a woman you’ve been verbally attacked.  He means you, even if you aren’t a crier (I’m not, except at the theater).  Run.  Ignore the other generalizations that come out of his mouth.  His refusing feedback in response to his behavior makes him dangerous.

I’ve always been made to feel that I am never to express my anger, so when I do get angry, the only option open to me is crying

This needs to be repeated. You’re not the only one. I know that I have this issue and I still can’t keep myself from crying when I’m angry. That is the only time I do cry.

hormone mimicking chemicals made the children’s brains less receptive to male play, which suggests that gender is not purely a social construct.

I don’t think anyone in this thread is necessarily saying that gender is purely a social construct*, per se.  Just that it’s impossible to pin down this particular thing as informed purely by something as complicated as hormonal response.  The human psyche is a complicated thing, and it’s pretty much impossible to say for sure that a particular behavior is 100% biologically or culturally influenced. 

Especially with an emotional response that has so much cultural baggage associated with it already.  The appropriateness of crying is one of the few things that we all remember being acculturated to.  So it’s pretty hard to say that all that “never let them see you cry!” conditioning is meaningless, it’s really all hormones.

*well, aside from the sloppy phrasing - gender is a social construct; sex is not, and obviously sex has an effect on behavior and personality.

Also, add me to the chorus of folks in this thread reiterating that they tend to cry uncontrollably when they’re angry.  I’m not really sure if this is a gendered response, and I certainly don’t feel like it’s something I was taught to channel my anger through.  But it definitely happens. 

An interesting thought - I tend to avoid starting arguments or being confrontational with people because I know it’s going to eventually lead to me crying, and I really don’t want someone I’m angry with to see me lose control.

To say that women as a whole cry for attention or to manipulate is just a stupid blanket statement. I hate when I cry and I want to fly into a rage when people think I’m doing it to manipulate. (Dumb ass I’m crying because I’m upset. Now shut up and let me cry alone in peace!) But then again I know individual women who are proud of their crying and other manipulative skills.

#86

Damn I do that too and I hate hate hate it! People tell me that I’m so nice and sweet and nonthreatening but a big part of that is that if I’m confrontational I know there is a very good chance I will cry. And crying which is seen as a sign of weakness is not exactly helpful in an argument.

James @#1,

Your grandmother and father sound like horrible people. I understand why your mother would be crying when having to deal with those two douche bags. And golly gee willikers I wonder what your mother did with all that emotion after being mocked, scolded and finding out she was betrayed by her own mother on her wedding day? But I’m sure whatever she did with it, it’s more convenient and comfortable for your father which makes it easy for him to be “happily married for over 53 years” so win-win right?

On mom’s side of the family, crying in public is seen as a manifestation of the person being unable to control his/her emotions in public and thus, is either self-absorbed/undignified and/or immature/spoiled. 

Part of this comes from their growing up in China/Taiwan during WWII and the Chinese Civil War where they perceived being calm and controlled was the best route to survival and getting through a crisis far more severe than anything they would face in Taiwan or even more so…the states. 

My maternal grandmother who was a single mother with 5 kids since her 20s had little tolerance for crying or other displays of losing control of one’s emotions in any of her mostly female children or anyone else.  This wasn’t good for my mother and her oldest sister…both of whom wore their emotions on their sleeves more often than the middle sisters who tended to be very good at maintaining their composure in the most severe situations.  However, compared to my father….mom’s often the emotionally controlled composed person in the couple while dad tends to lose control over his temper/rants far too easily…especially in the past. 

And people wonder why I react to people(mostly dudes IME) ranting, yelling/screaming, and making violent threats against me with rolled eyes, pointedly ignoring them for days/weeks, and if I know the person doesn’t have the means to make good on those threats…even laugh in their faces.

Regarding crying, I never understood my relatives/the public’s mentality towards that as due to the severe stigma against public crying….it is almost always a sign of severe pain and distress in that person which merits empathy and what parodox did…..not scorn and ridicule. 

As for crying being a manipulative tactic….that’s probably the most ineffective one considering it causes most people to dismiss the crying person’s far more easily. 

Far more effective are the rants, yelling/screaming, and violent threats because most people are so afraid of commotion and disharmony they’d do anything to make it go away….which encourages such behavior IME.

Yeah, I was being sarcastic.  There’s always a few assholes who come into a thread about how women aren’t all hysterical bitches by saying “I know a hysterical bitch, therefore you are wrong”.  Yeah, and some people are psychopathic murderers, but we don’t go around talking about the trend of psychopathic killing sprees that is taking the nation by storm!  (OK, maybe we do sometimes, like during the 90s with school shootings.)

Fuck Spencer Morgan and the horse he rode in on. I’ve cried in public, and I didn’t want to, but I also couldn’t help it at all. (I was seeing a therapist for depression issues, my boyfriend had just dumped me, and so on.) I was fucking miserable, so miserable than all context for my surroundings was completely screwed, and I just needed to let myself go because it hurt so bad. But if some guy had come up and tried to get me to not cry, because it was distressing him….that would have gone into the same category as the guys that try to tell you to smile because you’ll look prettier or cheer up because you’re bringing everyone else down. It makes me want to kick something.

Opoponax #49, there is sound physiological reason for having a heightened pain response to tattoo needles during PMS.  I’m no biochemist, but I think it has to do with the lower levels of prostaglandin increasing the body’s inflammatory response. (This is why anti-inflammatory drugs such as ibuprofen work so well for PMS.)  Other typical PMS symptoms, such as water retention, likely worsen matters.  If your tissues are already swollen—and prone to further swelling, thanks to low prostaglandin—a tattoo needle is going to hurt a lot more than at other times.

Legitimate question re. evo-psych. I’m thankful that this blog has fine-tuned my bs-ometer and made me a better skeptic. But several years back I was rather less aware and read the book Sex, Time and Power by Leonard Shlain. Women’s fertility cycles the impetus for societal success, explanation of why all good hunting parties needed a few gay/bald/left handed men, etc. There’s a lot I don’t remember, though I’m wondering if what I do remember (even without remembering it was in this book) is crap. To those better-versed in this stuff: do I discount Shlain? Is it bunk? Or does he deserve (at least some of) the adulatory praise he received? Thanks in advance.

Yeah, I had a feeling there were perfectly scientific reasons for the lowering of one’s threshold for physical pain around a period.  Lowering one’s threshold for emotional pain, however, is more politically controversial because it plays into all those “mean harpy on the rag!” stereotypes. 

Oooh, Mean Harpy On The Rag would be a great band name.

This is an interesting post, because it was something we talked about during a class discussion on gender in my English class last year (my professor was a feminist, yay!). Basically, it was about women in positions of authority, and some douchebags in my class said women couldn’t handle a lot of responsibility because they get “overemotional.” And my teacher pointed out, as Amanda briefly mentions in her post, that crying is considered an inferior way of handling emotion and is associated with women, but it may very well be overall healthier for people. But because crying is not a stereotypically male behavior, it is valued far less. It’s also a stereotype to assume that women will be “overemotional” while in a position of authority or that crying will decrease their ability in some way. Yeah, I loved that class, but too bad everyone else in the class was a privileged idiot.

I tend to be very sensitive and once I start crying it’s hard for me to stop. My parents used to fight when I was really young, and any yelling, even if it’s not directed at me, will cause me to react badly. This happened once during a class in high school when my teacher, who ironically was my favorite high school teacher, lost his patience and yelled at the class, and I started crying. If I could stop myself from doing it, I would, because nothing is more embarrassing than crying in public, especially when in front of a teacher I considered a mentor. He felt really bad about making me cry, too.

I also sometimes cry when I’m frustrated, such as during chemistry tests. Grr.

In regards to hormones affecting things like crying… Well, it’s just one subjective experience, but in the book Whipping Girl by Julia Serano, she talks about how she found that when she started taking estrogen she felt emotions more strongly and cried more often. I tend to believe that social conditioning has a larger effect on gendered behavior, but I don’t completely discount biology either. Though whenever we’ve talked about evo psych type stuff in my bio or psych classes, I cringe.

To those better-versed in this stuff: do I discount Shlain? Is it bunk?

I’m not sure about the book in question, but my usual metric is like this:

1.  Does the text in question make sweeping generalizations about politically controversial things like gender, sexual orientation, or race?

2.  Are generalizations used as metaphor or thought experiments, or are they Just So Stories meant to explain in simplistic terms the origin of some complex aspect of human society?

I’m much more likely to buy evo-psych claims if they deal with scientific questions that are too esoteric to have much appeal for your average crappy news source’s science page.  I also have a little bit of grudging respect for people like Stephen Pinker who are otherwise accepted within a larger academic discipline.  Though that still doesn’t mean I have to take everything they say as gospel, and will still tend to be suspicious if they start spouting convenient Just So Stories.

Also, re Sex, Time, and Power specifically - I would question the validity of an anthropology text authored by a medical doctor.  Not that he couldn’t possibly know what he was talking about at all, but well, I would trust someone who is actually an expert in the field over and above a layperson/hobbyist with friends in science publishing.

Yeah, I was being sarcastic.

Sorry about that, then.  I was dealing with someone at another website who went off on a multi-comment incoherent rant when someone jokingly used the term “Vagina-American,” so I think I’m still on high alert.

This doesn’t really alter my larger point - hormone mimicking chemicals made the children’s brains less receptive to male play, which suggests that gender is not purely a social construct.

I don’t think anyone still thinks gender is purely a social construct, at least not if they’ve read John Colapinto’s As Nature Made Him.  It was a theory in the 1960s and 1970s that’s pretty much discredited now.

However, what’s still in dispute is how much gender expression is a social construct.  As others have mentioned in this thread, in some cultures it’s men who are emotional and cry more easily, not women.  That should make us wonder how much of our actions are due to biology and how much to social pressures. 

One of my gay (male) friends said he had a hard time in Europe because a lot of the physical actions and gestures that are “gay” in the US are heterosexual over there.  He basically had to learn a whole new body language to figure out which guys might be gay.

Regarding crying, I never understood my relatives/the public’s mentality towards that as due to the severe stigma against public crying….it is almost always a sign of severe pain and distress in that person which merits empathy and what parodox did…..not scorn and ridicule.

Pretty much the reason for the stigma. It’s neat little mix of sadism, narcissism and projection; the shit about crying being “manipulative” is just people reaching for a socially acceptable excuse for kicking someone when they’re down and fighting back their own vestigial impulses towards decency..

Here is another test to tell if something is bullshit: does it challenge or support the current social inequalities? Bunk science usually supports the dominant paradigm: comforting the rich and powerful that they deserve to be that way. Real science is usually at least somewhat critical of the status quo.

This reminds me of those people who see a person with a neutral or otherwise non-ecstatic expression while out in public who feel the need to exhort her to “SMILE!” News flash: my emotional responses and facial expressions are not connected to you in any way.

I probably connect those two things in my mind because I’m not usually a public crier, but just after my brother passed away suddenly three years ago, I broke down in a convenience store buying cigarettes. First time ever that I can remember. No one there said anything, I got into my car and composed myself, then went on to the florist’s shop to order flowers for the casket. And as I crossed the florist’s parking lot a passerby felt the need to call out, “SMILE! It’s not that bad!”

I’d rather men were more prone to bursting into tears rather than into rage.  Rage is scary, and can lead to violence.  How many crying fits ended in violence, especially violence directed at another person?

Babs #52- “There are individuals of both genders that have cried to manipulate.  You know who else does?  My four year old nephew.  Scrapes his knee outside and the crying doesn’t start until he comes in the kitchen door and sees him mom.  That is crying for manipulation. “

Not always. I’ve always been like that, to this day. Physical pain, or something bad that happens to me (failed class, a layoff, speeding ticket, whatever) doesn’t usually make me cry. But when I see someone I know and am about to break the news to them, or they ask what’s wrong, that’s when the waterworks get cranking.

I was always conditioned to be ashamed of my emotions. Now I’m a near-emotionless golem that creeps everyone out.

Ironically, I cry because I suppress my emotions so much.  Day by day, I contain my annoyance, frustration, outrage, hurt, and anger over a whole number of different things, everything from minor slights to outright abuse.  Eventually it gets to the point that I can’t take it anymore, so I cry.  And I can rarely choose where it happens.  Sometimes I can keep it together until I’m in a private place, either at home or at least my cubicle, but now and then I break down in public.  There’s really not much I can do about it.

Additionally, in New York, people have to swallow endless amounts of shit from other people; this especially applies to women.  There are many abusive fuckwits in NYC who enjoy ruining another person’s day, and they take special delight in harassing women.  Of course women in New York eventually find it hard to keep their frustration, anger, and sadness bottled up, and, as others have noted here, it’s virtually impossible to be alone in that city.  Morgan is just another New Yorker douche who can’t mind his own fucking business.

G will cry when he’s sad or otherwise emotional (like when he tried to make a speech at our wedding) but I don’t think I’ve ever seen him cry when he’s angry.  That may actually be a gender difference, though I don’t know if it’s innate or culturally constructed.  Though, since little boys will cry when they’re angry and it’s still more acceptable for men to express anger than it is for women, I would lean towards “culturally constructed” myself.

Like many commenters above, I mostly cry when I’m pissed off at someone—I guess when I’m suppressing all those fight-or-flight instincts it gets channeled into more useless (but socially-acceptable) tears. It’s a serious disadvantage, of course, in real life, and leaves you less able to defend yourself (even verbally.) Even tiny woman brains know that it’s a bad way to move up in the world and make a good reputation for yourself, as in the following example:

Once in college we were listening to 3 straight hours of presentations, during finals week, in a dark room, and about half the class was asleep at any given moment (when I presented I found it slightly adorable, watching all those heads bobbing—very relaxing for someone who doesn’t like public speaking.) A professor of mine, my thesis advisor, research mentor and my main letter-of-recommendation writer, was the one teaching it so I stayed womanfully awake as much as possible, and actually got through one the presentations entirely alert. I asked a question at the end, hoping that the presenter would elaborate on something she had menioned earlier, and she just gave me the most spiteful look and said “maybe if you hadn’t been sleeping you would realize that we had answered that already.”

Now I *had* of course realized that they had addressed it earlier—she had just misunderstood my question. But rather than say anything and make clear that I *had* been paying attention and my question was a valid one, I was shocked, and instantly reduced to infuriated tearful silence because there was no way I was going to get a sentence out without bursting into sobs. I was tired and stressed, and her attitude had come completely out of left field. I was also humiliated in front of my mentor, who I wanted very much to impress. I was caught between the shitty options of say nothing and let her accusation stand or burst into tears and lose my remaining dignity.

So yeah, it’s pretty obvious that is cases like that crying is *not* helpful. And I, not being an idiot, would have preferred to do something else—like give her all the scathing fury that I was thinking for the rest of the class.

And this goes for almost any other encounter, too, when I’m crying; if I could get the words out properly it would be a combination of unprintable and cuttingly sarcastic—but that loses a lot of bite when you’re stuttering it through salt water. I would much rather stay collected and take the other person down verbally—and, funnily enough, it’s when I *do* maintain my composure that I’m able to better hurt people or manipulate them. Crying at someone you hate isn’t nearly as effective as dispassionately telling them exactly what is wrong with them and why they will fail at life, and you’d better believe a not-terribly-kind but fairly-private-and-reserved woman like myself would prefer the latter any day.

(None of this goes for Up. That movie just killed me regardless. I had read a review that told me what happened to Ellie before going to see it, so I started crying a good 3 minutes before the rest of the audience in anticipation. :p)

To make things worse, masculine forms of trying to get your way in a conflict are never called manipulative in my experience, though often the person displaying them has a lot more control.  It’s a lot easier to avoid overtalking, bullying, dismissing contemptuously, screaming, and threatening to cut off support than it is to avoid crying.  Some of those are hard to avoid when you feel provoked, but all of them are easier than to stop crying.

Indeed.  I have deliberately adopted displays of anger and complete assholery when I was feeling quite clinical about it, not for interpersonal reasons but in dealing with teams and negotaiations (long story - sometimes you have to signal the other side that something really is NOT acceptable).  It was manipulation, and I knew it as manipulation.  One of the interesting (and disconcerting) things in working as a union delegate was watching myself get manipulative to deal with people, even in their own best interests.

But from the male perspective, female crying does *feel* manipulative. If you’re in an argument or discussion and faced with a woman bursting into tears, the two immediate choices *feel* like folding and comforting her, or being an asshole by continuing.  Dealing with it in a way that, um, respects her enough as a person to continue to disagree while acknowledging her emotion requires an emotional intelligence that needs to be learned, if that makes sense.  Understanding isn’t automatic if you don’t cry yourself.

(Yeesh, sorry about the novel! Clearly I’m still a bit pissed off. :p)

About approaching a crying person… I think it’s pretty situational. I generally found it appropriate as a female college student to approach another female college student if she were crying in a public place on campus—this was helped by the fact that I went to a small school, and we pretty much all knew each other by sight at least a little. Usually nothing came of it, but I felt like it was part of being a college community to at least ask if they were alright.

I don’t see anything wrong with something like “you alright?” in a lot of cases, but that may be a function of a West Coast upbringing and being a young female—my chances of freaking someone out by approaching them are pretty low. I would certainly caution a guy or a more physically intimidating person to err on the side of inaction: approaching a strange woman is already somewhat fraught even when she *isn’t* obviously distressed and on edge.

For me, having someone approach me with a sort of gentle, casual concern “you okay?” or an offer of a tissue is appreciated, but anything beyond that makes me more uncomfortable than it makes me comforted. If you offer a tissue and then *stick around* or do anything besides drift away again after I say “I’m fine, thanks” it’s unnerving and makes your motives seem less pure.

Obviously, an instruction like “Smile!” or “Cheer up!” would be right out. Unthinkable.

News flash: my emotional responses and facial expressions are not connected to you in any way.

Of course it is.  Smiling is a form of submission, which is why poor people smile much more than rich people do.  They find it necessary to suck up to and win other people over, whether they realize they’re doing it or not.  It’s also why some male douchebags command women to smile for them.  Whether they realize it, they’re ordering random women to submit to them.

Dealing with it in a way that, um, respects her enough as a person to continue to disagree while acknowledging her emotion requires an emotional intelligence that needs to be learned, if that makes sense.  Understanding isn’t automatic if you don’t cry yourself.

I would argue that the reverse is true: basic empathy should prompt people to feel bad if the other person is reduced to tears—little kids don’t feel manipulated when they see someone cry, they feel distraught. If anything we are taught to ignore this empathy and toughen up so we can take other people’s emotions as personal attacks and attack back without pity. And who has never cried (even as a child?) ...I doubt that’s the norm.

If a guy feels guilty and attacked that a woman is crying because he is talking to her, isn’t it likely he knows he probably did something wrong? All that masculine bullshit about crazy bitches and hormones and irrationality is just a way to weasel out of taking a little responsibility for hurting someone. And not liking to hurt another person isn’t usually a learned behavior.

I don’t cry, or if I do it is a very rare occurrence.  I seem to have been conditioned not to express any emotion from an early age.  So it is my natural, default position not to do so.  I went through a stage when I was able to integrate more emotion into my expressive repertoire, but in general these days it seems too dangerous to stick one’s neck out with tears or anything that may be misinterpreted as a form of incitement that I did not intend.  When I am upset, I do a structural analysis of what is upsetting me, and then I take action to remove the source of my distress.  I don’t expect that what I express emotionally will be believed, so I take matters into my own hands entirely.  I don’t believe that I owe anyone an explanation when it comes to taking action to restore my inner equilibrium.

I come from a family of non-expressers, so I was definitely taught not to cry in public. To their credit, showing anger or overtalking and other more “masculine” shows of emotion were equally unacceptable. I cry like a baby during movies, and sometimes long-distance commercials, but I’m rarely a public crier. The thing about James’ first comment, or Aurelius’ comment are that they’re irrelevant. I’m sure there is some women, somewhere who cries on purpose. That doesn’t mean it’s ok to assume that any woman you see crying in public is doing it to manipulate or wants attention.

I can remember one time during adulthood that I cried in public. It was the day after we disconnected my father from life support and I watched him die. For the next six months, I would cry hysterically every night the moment I turned off the light (I don’t recommend combining bereavement and pregnancy if it’s something you can control). But that first day, I cried publicly and constantly with no control whatsoever. And, while I’m a nonviolent and non-confrontational person, if anyone had told me to smile, or that it wasn’t that bad, I would have committed assault.

Incidentally, Babs, a child who doesn’t cry until he sees his mother isn’t necessarily being manipulative. It’s also that he needs comfort but has already learned the futility of crying for comfort when there’s no one to see and respond. Also, some people fall apart once a crisis is over, when he hurt himself, he may have been totally focused on getting to mom, and once she was there and that focus was gone, other emotions had time to take hold.

If a guy feels guilty and attacked that a woman is crying because he is talking to her, isn’t it likely he knows he probably did something wrong?

And if he knows he didn’t do anything wrong, is it not likely that he will *feel* unfairly manipulated by the woman crying?

We’ve already seen Amanda state that she cries easily.  Knowing that, I might understand that if she breaks into tears in mid-argument, it is probably not a personal attack or attempt to manipulate but just one of those things.  Respecting her intellect and ability as a debater, it’s my job to get past that and not allow myself to resent it, or make her feel embarrassed.

And not liking to hurt another person isn’t usually a learned behavior.

No, but understanding that weepers are not necessarily playing on your unwillingness to hurt another person may very well be a learned behaviour.  Most guys do not like to hurt women; we do not like to see women crying, and we feel bad if we think we have made her cry.

All that masculine bullshit about crazy bitches and hormones and irrationality is just a way to weasel out of taking a little responsibility for hurting someone.

Or alternatively, at least in part, it can be a reaction by the immature and ignorant in dealing with their own responses in women crying.  It’s a lot easier to assume that it’s hormones and crazy bitchiness than to understand that women display emotions differently without this being wrong.  Easier, but not correct.

To make things worse, masculine forms of trying to get your way in a conflict are never called manipulative in my experience, though often the person displaying them has a lot more control.

Perhaps because the masculine way (bullying, raging, yelling) are seen as the default setting, so anything that varies from that (crying, for example) is seen than “less than”.

As with other posters, I cry when I’m frustrated/angry, especially in a situation where I am being disrespected or put down (such as with a previous bullying boss).  I’m sure it’s mostly due to social conditioning and the pattern I saw with my mother (the original doormat, bless her heart).

However, in situations where I’m with other women or with mixed groups, I can be much more cutting and ascerbic in what is usually seen to be the male pattern.  Go figure.

Sorry, you’re right.  I misquoted the article - the altered behaviour is less masculine, but not more feminine:
“The mothers of 145 youngsters had previously volunteered to be tested during pregnancy. Those boys born to women with higher levels of exposure to phthalates were less likely to play with toys like guns or trucks, or exhibit play behaviour typical of their gender, such as roughhousing or participating in sports.”
Comment #82: PeterZeroOne on 01/18 at 01:50 PM

Maybe they were just less energetic in general, so they weren’t so interested in “masculine” behaviors because those behaviors require more energy.  Maybe they played less altogether.

“a sobber or screamer or—God help you—a shrieker. ”

Does this make anyone else think of rancid misogynistic descriptions of women’s behavior in some context other than crying in public? What a twit.

The upshot is that I tend to have a lot of sympathy for other teary-eyed folks, including the couple of students I get every semester who get upset about their grades.  Are some of them simply inducing tears in a play for sympathy?  Probably.  But I’m pretty sure that others are in my boat—that is, they get frustrated at their own performance, at the situation, at the sense that they can’t control themselves, etc.  So usually I just say something sympathetic (I know it’s frustrating, this is a difficult and stressful time of year, etc.) and ask if they need a tissue or want to step out to the hallway or restroom for a moment.  Once things calm down a little, then we can resume the conversation about how their work didn’t quite meet the grading criteria.

Interesting.  All the stories I’ve heard about students disputing grades from friends who TA/teach college classes never had any situations where students ended up in tears. 

It almost always follows the patterns of the students and/or more often..the parents angrily demanding a better grade because they are a “paying customer”, various degrees of unseemly whining, or attempting to use threats of lawsuits or parental wealth/power/legacy connections to get their way. 

And the first comment out of the box: No, really, women are first class actresses who use their powers in bafflingly limited ways, instead of going for that Oscar!

You completely missed the point of the story.  At some point, my mother learned that “crying works.”  My grandmother did not like that, and urged my father not to let her get away with that.  My father did not let my mother manipulate him by crying, and my mother did not try to use crying to manipulate my father. 

And that’s really sweet, that story about marital dysfunction.  We all get along better if we realize women are silly and don’t deserve to be taken seriously, don’t we?

And that’s an even more ludicrous conclusion to reach.

Here is the timeline (roughly):

Summer, 1956:  Man and woman get engaged.
December, 1956 (noon):  Man and woman get married. 
December, 1956 (3PM at reception): Woman’s mother tells man:  “(Your wife) may try to cry to manipulate you.  She learned that habit in college.  Don’t fall for it.”
December, 1956 plus a couple days:  Man and woman discuss something, disagree.  Woman starts to cry to try to influence decision.  Man says:  “Your mother warned me you might do that.” 
53 years later, they’ve gone through a lot (lots of joy, lots of sorrow, I am sure there was crying when their parents died, since I witnessed that.  There were tears of joy at other occasions.  But there weren’t tears of manipulation.)

I doubt their marriage is perfect, I don’t think there is such a thing.  But it is strong, it is based on mutual respect and love, and it certainly isn’t dysfunctional.

So, Amanda, on December, 1956 plus a couple days, what would you suggest the man do?  Allow himself to be manipulated, setting up a pattern?

Also late to the discussion.  I’m a grown up crybaby with a long history, who ironically is frequently told that he doesn’t express his feelings.  (Anger, curiously, is almost impossible for me to express without explicitly prepping myself beforehand.)  That said:

Crying isn’t a rational act.  It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, when you think about it.  Have you ever thought to yourself, “well, now that I’m sad, I might as well rinse out my eyes with saltwater while struggling for breath and making bizarre mewling noises?”  I’ve only thought that once or twice, tops, in my early teens.  The rest of the time it’s something my brain tells my body to do without bothering to let my consciousness in on the reason.  (I’m trying not to get into the evo psych argument, although I’m generally in agreement with the site’s regulars.)

Is it infantile?  Maybe, but probably no more infantile than the urge to unobtrusively retreat to an unpopulated area when someone hurts my feelings.  Is it manipulative?  I certainly don’t mean it to be, because hey, it’s not my fucking decision.  It’s just the amygdala getting a boner.  It might, under some circumstances, produce desirable results, and perhaps that’s why my jerkoff know-it-all brain goes there.  But this just leads to an arms race: part of the reason crying in public is scary is the fear that someone will think you’re trying to play them in some way, and “retaliate.”

But then, perfectly “healthy,” socially acceptable levels of anger in both men and women freak me the hell out.  My solution?  I am kind of crazy, and these are my issues, which I will use my rational, conscious mind to keep tabs on.  I trust other people are doing the same, and try not to get in their way.

@comment 123:

FWIW, pre-emptively claiming concern about being manipulated is a commonly employed and fairly effective way to justify manipulation.  Not sayin’ it applies to your example.  Just sayin’.

So James, is it your contention that Spencer Morgan (is) was not being a giant disingenuous douche when he wrote his article?

I tend to cry when I feel powerless and frustrated, so it often happens in totally inappropriate situations i.e. my attorney’s office/the advising office at school/dealing with doctors/etc. The last thing I want to be doing in those situations is crying uncontrollably, this multiplied by the fact that I produce an inhuman amount of mucus when I cry (I think it’s because I smoke and my sinuses are a mess). I become incoherent and covered in snot while in situations where I need to be professional and strong. I can’t imagine a less effective way to manipulate a situation to my advantage than by giving the impression I’m fully unhinged.

I didn’t cry at my wedding or when my grandfather died. I pretty much only cry when I’ve exhausted all other resources.

Yeah, I find that I tear up a lot more than my wife does. She occasionally gets real frustrated and might get a little watery, but my eyes leak at touching movies, music, you name it. I tend to get angry and ranty in response to stress, which I’m really not all that proud of… I try to control it as best I can (usually eating something helps a lot, as I have an insane metabolism and am almost always hungry); mostly by shutting up.

But those touching moments I’ll be blinking rapidly while my wife is just watching with dry eyes.

And this idiot with the article is a douche.

James,

I fail to see how anyone misunderstood your story.  It’s a dreadful story.  Your grandmother’s behavior—at your mother’s wedding for God’s sake—was unconscionable. 

I strongly suspect (in fact I would put a lot of money on it) that your mother learned that “crying works” because she was not treated with respect within her own family.  I can’t imagine anything more disrespectful than your own parent telling your new spouse that you are a manipulator and not to let you get away with it (and on your wedding day, no less.) 

And how nasty that your father did not let your mother “get away with” something.  Marriage should be about good faith efforts on both sides to meet the needs of both parties; it should not be some power struggle where you assume from the outset, based on the say-so from third party, that your new wife is trying to put something over on you.

And the fact that your parents’ marriage lasted a long time doesn’t somehow make this okay.  In fact, I don’t see the relevance of the length of their marriage at all.  (You don’t think that people stay in crap marriages, especially in that generation?)

Lastly, I don’t see what is so horrible about the idea that “crying works.”  Verbally expressing your feelings “works” too; doesn’t make it wrong.  Your story is all about privileging some expressions of emotion over others (those deemed the province of women), and shaming a woman for the particular expression of emotion she chose.

When I was on a birth control pill that was too strong, I wept at anything negative one day of the month. It was scary to me, because I usually have much more control. So there is some hormonal involvement.

The thing about crying being about manipulating people pisses me off, because my father always accused me of that when he’d been yelling at me, whether I reacted with tears, a shamed and guilty slouch, anger—well, no anger wasn’t called manipulative, which must be why I eventually settled on hating him with a passion for several years because while that got me accused of disrespectfulness, that was, at least, true.

How can men not see that someone you love being angry and shouting at you can make you unhappy? HOW STUPID IS THAT?! No, what they really mean is that they feel a natural sense of guilt when their anger displays upset a woman, and then they blame her because they can’t admit they acted badly.

OTOH, the self-control I learned to go stoneface and show no emotion served me well in Corporate Hell.

When someone cries, I do offer tissues if I have them and they don’t. I also will say something general like, “Are you gonna be okay?” or “Can I help at all?” because while I don’t want to pry if it’s purely personal, they may need a ride, or painkiller, or a loan of a cell phone. I’ve never encountered someone who “used” my paying attention to them in some way. Rather, they may be embarrassed or grateful, but it’s always clear that they’ve been dealing with something genuine.

“any man who declares that women cry in order to manipulate is an abuser.”

Bingo.  This was certainly true with my abusive ex.  he would fly off the handle about anything, anytime and yell and throw things, but it wasn’t until I broke down crying, exhausted and frustrated, that he suddenly understood the word “manipulation”.

Ironically, when I finally left him, it was him that broke down crying.  To this day, I kinda wish I would have used one of his you’re crying just to manipulate me arguments against him just then.  I didn’t. I just walked out the door.

Interesting.  All the stories I’ve heard about students disputing grades from friends who TA/teach college classes never had any situations where students ended up in tears.

I wish that were true in my case.  I had a real sobber once.  It was obviously stress-related; she had my sympathy.

Not really about public crying, but just an assessment in my family.  We’re kind of 2-2 in criers and not really criers.  And it’s not split by gender.

I used to cry a lot more because my hormones were severely wacky.  I don’t anymore due to the magic of hormonal bc to control my whacked cycle.  I do cry when I’m really frustrated or when people accuse me of stuff that’s beyond my control.  Generally speaking I am a very unemotional person (I don’t cry at movies because I recognize they are trying to manipulate me) but when serious stuff falls on me, I cry.  Sometimes in public.  Cried at work twice, both times when I was accused of stuff I had little control over (a student complained I didn’t make him talk more—that kind of thing).  I cry when cats die but never when people die.  Go figure.

Dad is similar.  Doesn’t cry much.  Maybe at movies.  Funerals.  Cried all day at work when he accidentally ran over one of our kittens. 

My mom and my brother both suffer from some undiagnosed mental issues.  Pretty sure of it.  My brother might have hormonal issues like I did, but being a boy means that no one will recognize that.  Both are/were spoiled rotten, so they do a lot of manipulative stuff.  My brother would throw crying tantrums of the “woe is me, I suck so much” variety to get my mom to tell him he was better than me at stuff.  My mom throws crying tantrums ... just because.  I mean, she threw a fit because I wanted 2 dining chairs in my apartment and she wanted me to have 4.  In addition to a chair and a sofa and another chair at my desk.  I was living ALONE.  She cried and threw a fit.  She also tries to bait me into arguing with her, and fun stuff like that. 

Both have no qualms with doing this in public or private.  Either way.  Best is when they’re both fighting with each other.  They both have hair trigger tempers and my mom over-reacts and my brother is violent, so it gets very ... uh ... interesting.  (He barely pushes her, she screams and cries like he just broke her arm, etc.)

Anyway.  So I don’t usually believe the whole “women are just emotional” thing. In my family, men AND women are ... too emotional.

You completely missed the point of the story.  At some point, my mother learned that “crying works.” My grandmother did not like that, and urged my father not to let her get away with that.  My father did not let my mother manipulate him by crying, and my mother did not try to use crying to manipulate my father.

It’s interesting that your father had somehow escaped realizing this while they were dating? And that he chose to deal with it like that particularly creepy form of parenting where you ignore the baby crying for affection ‘cause then it’ll just learn that it can cry for affection… One generation of parents giving the poor woman’s new “father/master” tips on how to control their daughter (and now his!)—excellent. (Also, I like that particularly passive “learned that ‘crying works’” that neatly absolves her parents of any responsibility for raising her in a way that gave her no other options than crying to try and make her voice heard.)

Out of curiosity, did your father offer your mother any other options that actually *worked* instead of crying? Or did she just have to suck up what she wanted from then on because expressing an emotion was “manipulative”?

Yeah, the “you’re crying to manipulate me” tactic was used to great effect by my ex-husband, who used it every time he verbally assaulted me into a panic attack and crying, and then would say coldly “Is this going to happen every time I get mad at you?”. 

What I find particularly untouching about James’ story about his mother is that crying was one of the few socially acceptable responses to extreme frustration and anger that women were allowed - perhaps her husband could have responded with “I see that this is important to you - could you explain why without crying so I can better understand?”, but no, that isn’t how one controls one’s wife, is it?  You can’t meet as equals, after all, can you?  It’s repellent that this story is held up as sweet, when it rips all the agency away from a woman and reduces her to the status of a bratty child.

Men can be douches about this because they don’t want to bother with empathy - it’s much easier to say they’re being manipulated than to care.  And who is being manipulative by trying to silence emotions that make them uncomfortable?

I cry very little. And yet I’m a woman. If I’m crying, something is very wrong, and that’s all there is to it. It’s usually from grief-I used to cry of anger and helplessness as a teen, but then I was a bit of a rager, also. Now I just get angry, no crying needed. Getting older is fun!

But yeah, to manipulate people? Useless. A lot of people-especially men- don’t fucking respect you if you cry in front of them, as far as I’m concerned. My relationship with my father was terrible as a teen-it got better once he came off meds, I grew up and moved out, blabla-but also, I stopped needing to cry when I was furious-although I yelled a lot at the time (and that is yelled, NOT shrieked)-and also got my temper under control. My father saw me as more adult when I stopped crying.
Well, he had a point, admittedly. But I think it underlines the fact that people who cry aren’t respected, because crying is seen as a weakness. Hell, I see it as a weakness, and I know how fucked-up that is. Nothing wrong with crying, other than the fact that it’s coded as female, eh?

It’s repellent that this story is held up as sweet, when it rips all the agency away from a woman and reduces her to the status of a bratty child.

Especially repellent when the reducing is done by her own child. What’s that theory? Fear and loathing of the mother, who is a “sun-blocking creator” or some shit? (Caren has it in her screenname…)

God, I just want to give that woman a hug. Or a tissue.

Well, he had a point, admittedly. But I think it underlines the fact that people who cry aren’t respected, because crying is seen as a weakness. Hell, I see it as a weakness, and I know how fucked-up that is. Nothing wrong with crying, other than the fact that it’s coded as female, eh?

I tend to think that crying is fine when going through a breakup or a death or when things are horribly hopeless, but not fine as a reaction to being snapped at by an unreasonable coworker. Part of growing up is learning to control yourself and that crying, screaming, and other forms of losing control are not appropriate: they are signs of having a temper tantrum.

I tend to think that crying is fine when going through a breakup or a death or when things are horribly hopeless, but not fine as a reaction to being snapped at by an unreasonable coworker.

How about as a reaction to constantly being treated as less than a full human being? Would you consider that “appropriate” enough? Or is a grown woman having an emotional response/objecting to being told to shut up like a stupid little child “having a temper tantrum” ‘cause there isn’t a dick attached to make it all okay?

I tend to think that crying is fine when going through a breakup or a death or when things are horribly hopeless,

Well I’m glad the truly bereft among us have your approval.

BTW—way to ignore the dozens of reports on this very thread describing how crying is a more-or-less involuntary (or extremely difficult to control) response, often caused by sublimating other “not appropriate” reactions.

Obviously we’re not stressed out, fighting other responses, or suffering from lowered thresholds of any kind. We’re just Big Fuckin’ Babies.

Do people honestly think that showing emotion reduces you to childlike status? The way people respond to the idea of ZOMG SOMEONE IS CRYING LIKE A PATHETIC HUMAN you would think that tears produced radioactive death waves. Perhaps tears are the Stoic’s kryptonite.

No wonder half this country is on anti-depressants.

“went through a stage when I was able to integrate more emotion into my expressive repertoire, but in general these days it seems too dangerous to stick one’s neck out with tears or anything that may be misinterpreted as a form of incitement that I did not intend.  When I am upset, I do a structural analysis of what is upsetting me, and then I take action to remove the source of my distress.  I don’t expect that what I express emotionally will be believed, so I take matters into my own hands entirely.”

“I don’t cry at movies because I recognize they are trying to manipulate me”

See, both of these sound like reasons one isn’t a crier, but they’re not.  They’re options that a non-crier can choose that criers don’t have.

I mean, I think it’s dangerous to stick your neck out with tears, I recognize that movies are trying to manipulate me, but that doesn’t keep the crying from happening.  It’s not a choice I’m making.  I’d much rather not cry when I’m upset.

Big Fuckin’ Babies

Profanity taken literally, that is scarily like the ideal woman. A child you can fuck. But no crying! That shit’s annoying!

I mean that’s the very definition of adulthood.

How odd that I’ve never heard it before, then, despite a decade of adulthood. I guess all the adults in my world were more preoccupied with trying to be forces for good in the world than with being the Emotion Police.

You know what, I just put my finger on what’s bothering me—I was raised to consider a Grown Up someone who could be counted on to do what they need to do. I never thought to care whether they are able to do it without crying as long as it gets done.

I’m a cryer.  I cry at movies, books, that stupid Sarah McLachlan ASPCA commercial.  I cry when I’m frustrated, I cry when I’m angry.  I cry when I’m really, really happy. 

Sometimes, when the shit is hitting the fan, the crying will stay at bay until things can be dealt with, but once it’s over the tears will come because they must. 

And I really fucking hate superior assholes who think that crying means I DON’T have a grip on my emotions.  Trust me.  I do.  Oh, do I.  And people like you should be grateful that I do, because sometimes my emotions tell me beating someone like government mule is the appropriate response.  Particularly when they’re a condescending douchehead and I’m having a shit day, like having put my cat to sleep just the day before.

And I really fucking hate superior assholes who think that crying means I DON’T have a grip on my emotions.  Trust me.  I do.  Oh, do I. And people like you should be grateful that I do, because sometimes my emotions tell me beating someone like government mule is the appropriate response.

Amen. Trust me, if you see me crying in public, you best thank your lucky stars. Odds are I’m crying because the alternative is punching a motherfucker in the (metaphorical or literal) cock.

Tom Wolfe is such a dumb fuck.

If Chet gets dust in his eyes and they water he’s not an adult anymore. If he yells in pain when kneed in the groin he’s not an adult. If he is startled and gets the hiccups he’s not an adult. If he raises his voice when frustrated he’s not an adult. If he comes on to a thread that’s about a controlling douchebag, has a negative emotional reaction to women talking, and then starts setting irrational standards for “adulthood” he’s not an adult. If he yawns in response to being sleepy he’s not an adult…

Hey, this is fun! I’m gonna do this to *everyone* I disagree with! (Especially the groin bit. Suck it up, bro—cries of distress mean I get to ignore your opinion! Ya baby. :D)

Also, sneezing. Involuntary reaction to stimuli that doesn’t in any way impair your judgment or further actions?—you’re not an adult! Love it. :p

Isn’t everybody glad that we had a couple of menz come in and explain to us silly, emotional gurliez what “adult” behavior is? Especially after dozens and dozens of comments about how impossible it is not to cry under certain conditions?

You know what, I just put my finger on what’s bothering me—I was raised to consider a Grown Up someone who could be counted on to do what they need to do. I never thought to care whether they are able to do it without crying as long as it gets done.

In the eyes of my maternal grandmother and mom’s middle sisters, a grown up is someone who could be counted on to do what they needed to do without displaying any visible signs of discomfort or emotional distress whether that means crying, complaining, or having a temper tantrum.  In short, to do it without any fuss and thus, not call into question his/her ability and/or resoluteness in getting it done as expeditiously as possible.  Did I mention they also disdained chatterboxes and people who they felt “wasted time”?

Any such displays to them signify the person lacks self-control to “suck it up” which means serious concerns about whether s(he) can handle a serious difficult stressful situations/occupations whether it is helping a client avoid bankruptcy, ensuring a severely sick/injured patient is given the proper medical care amidst the chaos, etc.  Only difference is they would not code such emotional displays as feminine…but a sign of immaturity and being spoiled/sheltered from the harsh realities of life. 

And people wonder why my father loathed and feared my grandmother.  Heck, even I had a love/fear relationship regarding her….and she only displayed mild annoyance at me rather than open contempt she had for Dad and severe annoyance at mom for both not being as controlled and tough as she was.

But to be reduced to a complete lack of ability to control one’s body by even mild emotional reactions is simply immature.
...

Wow, how did you get so fucking stupid in only three minutes?

Are you kidding? I’m backing you up! If it’s so simple to control one’s body perfectly in the face of strong emotions (such as depression, fear, fury, etc.) then not reacting to a little pollen or a draft should be a cinch!

I mean, *obviously* I would never disagree with you that it’s appropriate to tell a group of women that they are childlike in their inability to keep a stiff upper lip in the face of serious adversity (abuse, disrespect, heavy social pressure to smile no matter what)—because that is SO OBVIOUSLY a good idea! What about that could I *possibly* object to? I’m just taking it a step further—all involuntary facial movements and reactions should be held to the same standard, surely? I mean, controlling one’s tearducts is super easy, so why shouldn’t control of *other* parts of your craniofacial nervous system be the same?

Also, naturally, your adulthood in the eyes of society will hinge on this control (sucks if you have allergies, but hey, I guess you shouldn’t have been born with a more sensitive nervous/immune system if you wanted people to take you seriously!)

I don’t agree that tears are always or even usually uncontrollable.  I think everyone is different, but mostly I can squelch the urge to cry if need be unless I am severely sleep deprived.  But I don’t buy the idea that just because tears can (sometimes)  be controlled means they need always be controlled.  Crying can provide tremendous relief from emotional pain and stress, the same way someone else might find emotional release by smashing something.  It is also worth noting that crying is less destructive and scary to others than the smashing option.

Even though I think tears can often be controlled, I totally disagree with Chet.  Involuntary tears seems pretty similar to sneezing or crying in pain or any other involuntary response to stimulus.  (Chet seems to be making an arbitrary distinction between physical and emotional stimulus.  It is worth noting that the two may be tough to separate.  For example, it is harder to control your emotional expression if hungry or tired.)

Bgelsan,  So true!!!!  I am constantly having people express concern for my emotional well-being during allergy season when my eyes are watering uncontrollably!!!

Shorter Spencer Morgan: Crying- women do it so it sucks.

Have me a theory. Part one: crying is a manifestation of pain- emotional or physical- and seeing someone cry makes us respond. MAKES us. The how is subjective but our gut-level empathy responds before our stupid conditioned brains do.

Part two: this “You’re manipulating me with your womanly tears of womanness, woman! Wiles! Childish! Bleep blorp bloop bleargh!” horseshit is the lazy response of the emotionally void who like to pretend that the world is entirely under their own volition and when forced to note that other people, particularly women, actually exist in said world, like secreting their emotion and other gross crap all over the place, they get all prickly and assholish. “Quiet, you! I am king of all this up in here!”

It makes me laugh that those who can’t cope with the full spectrum of human emotions are calling others weak and childish.

Hmm. For what it’s worth, I wonder how many of the women on here would react if a man burst into tears while having a disagreement with them, because they were upset with the way the conversatioin was going. With unqualified disdain, I’d imagine. Not because crying is a response worthy of disdain, but because while women may be looked down on by some for showing that part of their emotional range in public, it’s simply not an option for any man who wants to be repsected or considered strong by those of either gender ever again. 

“AWWW, is the menz cryin’ because the mean wimminz is speaking their mind?” Uh huh? Believe it or not men get upset too in similar situations to you but most of us have been taught stoicism is the only socially acceptable response. Even anger is essentially recoginzed as the recourse of the arsehole unless it’s indisputably justified (which applies to both sexes - women can and often express anger too).

Hmm. For what it’s worth, I wonder how many of the women on here would react if a man burst into tears while having a disagreement with them, because they were upset with the way the conversatioin was going. With unqualified disdain, I’d imagine.

What sort of flat cartoon world does one live in, I wonder, where this question makes any sense at all?

Here in reality were I arguing with anyone who burst into tears I’d feel what I imagine many humans would: empathy, sorrow, curiosity, likely some guilt, and an urge to recitify whatever was hurting them. But hey! If I were on a sitcom and some dude just up and cried like that I’d totally recoil in disgust and then wittily recount it (with hilarious re-enactment!) to the rest of the ensemble cast in our favorite coffee shop.

Stubborn kind of fellow,

Well, most feminists are pretty cognizant of how the gender binary hurts men.  It is a central tenet of feminism after all.  So, your reading of the crowd here is wrong. 

I am married to one of those stoic guys.  And yes, he has burst into tears in disagreements with me a couple of times.  My response is immediate remorse that I hadn’t seen how much the issue at hand was affecting him.  In a more general way, it is relief to see in his tears that he indeed has feelings, but boy, it would be awfully nice if he could communicate his feelings at a point before the tears.  I blame the patriarchy.

I’m with Laurie. If an argument with my husband gets to the point where he cries, my first instinct is guilt that I wasn’t paying enough attention to realize how much whatever subject matters to him. It’s only happened a couple of times, but it’s definitely a signal to step back and regroup and think about what’s important. And I wouldn’t want to live with a man who didn’t feel the same way about my tears during a fight.

Part of growing up is learning to control yourself and that crying, screaming, and other forms of losing control are not appropriate: they are signs of having a temper tantrum.

As opposed to, you know, the actual temper tantrums that various adult men have had that have caused female staff of mine to tear up and need a moment to compose themselves before moving on.

I cried my ass off at the end of Moon. Literally. I had to use superglue.

Hmm, I think I’ve figured it out: Chet isn’t being so much sexist as ableist. While he applies the same (unfair) standard to both men and women, so it’s not exactly sexist, it’s an *unfair* standard because he is discounting the adulthood (and humanity, I’d argue) of people who respond differently to outside stimuli than he does. Does your brain chemistry (or eyeball chemistry) work differently than his? Then he doesn’t give a shit about you—you’re a child, and therefore shouldn’t be allowed in out public.

Right, I mean, obviously it’s super-feminist to portray women as hysterics who can’t ever be expected to be in control of themselves and their emotions. What an insensitive male I must be to accuse adult women of being actual adults.

No, you’re the one accusing adult women of being “hysterical” and childish when they describe their actual behaviors. I’m not inventing women that cry easily in order to make up some stereotype about women crying easily and then saying they’re losers. I’m discussing *actual* women who *actually cry* under various circumstances, and how that’s *not* a sign that they are hysterical, immature, or in any way out of control of their emotions (which is what you are positing.)

It can’t really get a lot clearer than real adult women saying “I cry sometimes for seemingly harmless reasons but I’m still in control of myself and my emotions” ... that is pretty much the ultimate refutation of your theoretical never-cries-except-when-she-does-and-then-she’s-insane-and-out-of-control strawwoman. Because when you say “adults don’t cry except when they want to” but *reality* shows that adults can and do cry for a variety of reasons (and when they would prefer not to), then one of you is wrong. My money is that it’s not reality.

God damn it Chet, you’re at the bottom of the hole. Quit digging. Tyro had the good sense to do so several hours ago.

Meh, it’s more fun to mock someone who’s able to realize that that’s what I’m doing. If you can’t recognize “eyeball chemistry” as slightly tongue-in-cheek then you are clearly beyond arguing with, even as a stress-ball bit of entertainment (anything to avoid reading my neuro articles, frankly.)

If someone who is in control of themselves is an “adult” then I guess someone who wants to control *other* people is a Chet. :p If your behavior is that of a mature adult then I’m gonna stick with “childlike” behavior such as expressing my emotions honestly and unashamedly, listening to others, and chilling the fuck out when girls on the intertubes disagree with me.

Chet:

“Strong emotion”? We’re talking about people who bawl at the thought of Balki Bartokomous. If you lack such self-control that even a mild emotional stress reduces you either to a crying jag or physical violence, you’re not a person in control of yourself and your emotions. Not an adult, in other words.

Keep whacking at that hysterical strawman.

I mean, when did anyone else here equate crying when we don’t want to with an endless crying jag or physical violence?  Crying sometimes manifests as tears leaking out of your eyes, and maybe sniffling so you don’t have snot running down your lip.  Is the cinematically pretty leaking okay but not the sniffling?  What about a little noise?  I guess the big boo-hoo is totally out.

Stubborn kind of fellow:

I wonder how many of the women on here would react if a man burst into tears while having a disagreement with them, because they were upset with the way the conversatioin was going.

I’ve had that happen to me many times in my life with various men.  I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it as a response to an emotional situation, which an argument can definitely qualify as.

I don’t normally think they’re trying to be manipulative, I don’t normally think they’re emotionally immature, based on that.  If I think the person is manipulative or immature, sure—I might consider it in that light. 

I don’t think it’s unmanly in any case.  Men get emotional, too, in emotional situations, when they are having difficulty communicating, when they’re not sure what they’re feeling or what I’m feeling or what’s going on is confusing, uncomfortable or scary.

You seem to think that crying is what women do when “they were upset with the way the conversatioin was going.”  Do you mean this as they’re upset with being ignored, their point of view discounted?  Or do you mean this happens when they’re losing an argument and see that they’re wrong and decide to pull out some kind of nuclear weapon in order to get their own way?

I can see how someone reacting the first way might seem like they’re reacting the second way if you don’t think anything they’re saying is worth taking seriously.  She didn’t agree with you, she’s wrong, she realizes it and now she’s crying in frustration that you caught her being wrong and she’s lost the argument in your all-knowing impartial logical mind and so she’s getting back at you.

Rather than she didn’t agree with you, you aren’t listening because you know you’re right so why bother, she realizes you aren’t listening and now she’s crying in frustration with your non-listening ass.

Chet again:

Look, it’s not complicated, morons. Someone in control of themselves is an adult. Someone who can’t control themselves is not.

Wow, great example of lack of control!  You’re using more and more abusive language in response to people disagreeing with you.

Chet, your attitude is exactly what we are complaining about in this very post. As I mentioned above, I once had some bad news at work and teared up and had to blow my nose, a response I had about as much control over as shivering when cold, and considerably less control than had I said “fuck” and slammed a door (which incurs no disrespect when men do it). But according to you, I am not to be considered an adult human being! Because GURLS cry. We cannot have people showing SOPPY GURL EMOTION in men’s, sorry, I mean adult spaces like work and outdoors.

(Glossing over the nasty implication that children’s emotions don’t count and deserve no respect! Children are almost powerless, often refused information in confusing situations, and easily frustrated by their own limitations; I expect if one of us had to lead a child’s life for a week we’d be in tears fairly frequently too.)

But it’s total bullshit - especially on a feminist blog - for you to pretend that women are hysterical and out-of-control.

You’re right, someone doing that *would* be total bullshit, wouldn’t it? 9.9

On an unrelated note, you realize that women are literate, right? And able to scroll upwards?

It’s interesting, isn’t it, that EVERY SINGLE TIME a woman has the temerity to not agree with his manliess Chet he calls her every single name his teeny brain can conceive of trying to distract everyone from the fact that he’s completely wrong?

What are you doing here, Chet?  It’s perfectly clear that you can’t handle women with opinions, can’t handle being wrong, can’t handle debating like an adult, can’t handle differences of opinion - esp when it’s women who aren’t agreeing with you.  Why continue to pretend you’re a feminist ally?

Growing up is good. I recommend that you two idiots try it sometime.

Are you sure? Because you make it sound pretty shitty, by example anyway.

All of this is also pretty rich coming from the guy who once argued that he—and by extention TEH WORLD—needs divorce laws, because otherwise he’d probably leave his wife in a fit of rage every single time they fight.

Yeah, you totally got this emotion thing on lock.

I’ve normally regarded Chet as sort of an asshole but wondered whether my belief was colored by the fact that I normally find his beliefs to be rather asinine, and maybe I’d feel differently if I actually agreed with him. Well, now I do agree with him, so I can rethink my perspective, and my judgment is: yep, still an asshole.

I said what I was going to say: the world is full of people who are going to snap at you in a meeting, and discussions about things will get heated. Growing up means learning to control yourself and not losing your head or bursting into tears. That, at least, is what I had to learn.

the world is full of people who are going to snap at you in a meeting

Snapping: adult.
Responding to this with display of emotion coded as more feminine: childish.
I get it.

And “heated” discussion means that people are angry and showing it, right? Raising their voices, maybe, or insulting people personally or banging fists on the table? Again, fine and perfectly adult. We don’t have to change that. That’s all perfectly macho, sorry, adult.

“Snapping: adult.
Responding to this with display of emotion coded as more feminine: childish.
I get it. “

Bingo.  if you don’t “take it like a MAN” - that is, respond with escalation and eventually violence - you’re a women and therefore not an adult.

If you have emotions - ever- that you display in any other way than men do, you’re a woman and therefore not an adult.

it’s so perfectly clear to me now.

Thanks Gypsy!

“The world is full of people who are going to cry occasionally. Growing up means learning to control yourself and treating people with respect and courtesy even if their emotions display themselves in ways of which you do not personally approve.”

look, i cry when i am angry. always have. try to control it, but can’t always.

and now, well, i have a chronic pain condition. and a lot of responsibilities. and am torn in many different directions on a daily basis. so these issues exacerbate what was already a difficult response for me to master.

when you have a lot of shit going on, especially shit you can’t control, especially physical pain that is there almost constantly, you are going to feel like you’ve got a hair-trigger. and in my case, that means that i cry —A LOT MORE THAN I USED TO. that doesn’t make me a child. it means i’m someone with a lot of stuff on my plate. stuff that i would defy a lot of non-criers to deal with as effectively as i am.

so yeah, chet, what you are saying is ableist. it’s also bullshit.

lol oh chet. honey, honey, honey. i’m really entertained that you come on here and accuse others of being childish, when you are incapable of supporting your assertions without freaking out and name calling. my god man, get a grip. what a child.

BWAHAHAHAHA! chet, you really are hilarious. and stupid, stupid, stupid. you assume people’s gender based on their online alias? because women only go by fluffy miss unicorn?

“hen they’re crying for no good reason and making other people feel bad -”

yeah, quit crying you stupid bitches, it makes me have to feel things and care about other people. i hate caring about other people.

you should also learn to read. i think your anger is making giving you trouble. but as long as you aren’t crying, it’s okay to be emotional in your oh so very manly way.

dude, seriously? keep having your tantrum. no one will ever respect that.

“t’s a great many of you who can’t handle debating with me like an adult - hence, the constant need for duplicity and misrepresentation. The things I’m saying are not mendacious or anti-feminist (I leave that to Bagelsan.) That’s why so many of you, who have taken a personal dislike to me, have to invent absurd positions and ascribe them to me”

LOL.  Wow.  We. Can. Scroll. Up. You’re so full of shit even you don’t know when you’re lying.  The entire site can see what you did - what you always do the moment anyone, especially women - disagree with you.  Why bother pretending anymore? 

Imagine the poor unfortunate Mrs. Chet having to live with this. 
“So, still want pizza for dinner?”
“You little fuckwit, I never said I wanted pizza for dinner. You are so stupid.”
“But, you sent me a text earlier saying you wanted pizza.”
“You don’t like me so you have to invent absurd positions and ascribe them to me.”
“Look, it’s right here.”
“You’re representing me. The entire world is wrong and I’m right.  Don’t you understand my manly meat stick of knowledge makes me better than you, fuckwit!  Stop oppressing me!” (storms off to room to blast his emo music).

Aaaaaannnnd scene!

There’s a vocabulary issue here. If I upset a woman, she’ll likely want me to behave differently from how I am behaving (because that’s what “upset” means). She might also cry (because that’s a nomal reaction to someone upsetting you). I can see labelling that “manipulation” if you’re a blowhard who doesn’t think women exist.

That’s labelling. How many legs, then, does a horse have if you label the tail a leg?

Gracchus (31):

If a strange woman’s crying in the street, I find it safest to assume that she either doesn’t want my input, or (more rarely) does want my attention because she’s running some sort of short con. What I don’t see it as is a pick-up opportunity, which is what Spencer Morgan seems to think it is:

Well, duh, anytime a woman is out in public it’s a pick-up opportunity. That’s what women are for</sarcasm>

I can’t help wondering why he brought up the ink. I don’t believe it’s just corroborative detail intended to give artistic verisimilitude to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative.

Aurelius (48):

so, Amanda, you saying that NO women EVER cry to manipulate?  Ever?

I don’t imagine Amanda would say that not one of the billions of women who ever have lived or will live would do X, for any X you care to name. But I agree that the odds that a woman is crying to manpulate rather than, e.g., because she’s sad or upset are so low that not only is it not the way to bet, it is douchey to publish articles in newspapers protesting the practice.

Av0gadro (115):

a child who doesn’t cry until he sees his mother isn’t necessarily being manipulative. It’s also that he needs comfort but has already learned the futility of crying for comfort when there’s no one to see and respond

To the Spencer Morgans of the world, though, that is manipulative.

bad Jim (122):

Still, part of the stigma attached to crying is that it is something that kids do.

But adults don’t do it because it’s stigmatized. It’s not as though the ability to cry wanes as you get older, like the ability to digest milk.

James (123):

So, Amanda, on December, 1956 plus a couple days, what would you suggest the man do?  Allow himself to be manipulated, setting up a pattern?

And speaking of circular arguments: This presupposes that your mother is indeed a disingenuous liar, as you claim your charming little tale proves she is. If your mother isn’t a liar (which perhaps she is) it’s not a question of “allowing himself to be manipulated”; only because your mother is a huge liar does the question even arise.

  Keep whacking at that hysterical strawman.

What strawman? I’m directly quoting post 21.
Comment #191: Chet on 01/20 at 08:24 PM

That’s where you started, but then you went on to say, “If you lack such self-control that even a mild emotional stress reduces you either to a crying jag or physical violence, you’re not a person in control of yourself and your emotions. Not an adult, in other words.”

I didn’t take post 21 to mean that the person thinking about a sitcom was reduced to a crying jag or physical violence.  Because that’s not in there.  You made it up:

  I mean, when did anyone else here equate crying when we don’t want to with an endless crying jag or physical violence?

Well, what did exactly that in post 150.

No, that poster commented on sometimes crying (not on an “endless crying jag) as an alternative to getting violent because the poster was angry and frustrated about something.  That poster never claimed that violence was a good thing.

  Chet, your attitude is exactly what we are complaining about in this very post.

Well, it affects people to be around someone who’s crying. When they’re crying for no good reason and making other people feel bad - all because they thought of a TV show from the 80’s - hey, I think maybe they’re being just a touch immature. Mature people don’t shit on other people like that for no good reason.

It affects people to be around someone who’s yelling, too.  Why do you think your outburst is any more mature?

And you keep blowing past the issue that people sometimes can’t control being sad, or crying.  It’s all manipulation all the time for you. 

Maybe that makes you feel more in control of your own emotions like anger?  Like claiming it’s all intentional:

  Wow, great example of lack of control!

Hardly. I’m choosing to express my emotions to the people I’m in conflict with, rather than the people around me who I care about. I’m in perfect control. I never said that people should bottle up their emotions and never express them. What, I’m saying people should act like adults, so that means I have to be a perfect robot? Get over yourself.

Interesting turn of phrase there.  In your mind, what makes robots “perfect”?  Why would their emotionlessness be the pinnacle of achievement?

It seems you are wavering here between excusing your (in your view shameful) lack of control as one of the pitfalls of being human, or rationalizing it as “I meant to do that.” You might even be hinting that, to some extent, emotion is okay.  If it’s your emotion, and patriarchy-approved!

You don’t seem to be able to do any of these fully, because there’s no getting around noticing your obviously strongly emotional replies, yet you don’t want to embrace it as that would make you a hypocrite.

New clinical diagnosis for depression in DSM-V: you’re just being a baby.

New clinical diagnosis for depression in DSM-V: you’re just being a baby.

Unfortunately, there are far too many people who do feel and believe that….including some in my own family.

OMG I JUST CHECKED THIS THREAD AND DISCOVERED I HAVE GROWN A PENIS! Apparently. :p

“then they’re crying for no good reason and making other people feel bad -”

I *do* enjoy that we’ve come full circle back to the title of the post, though. Only in an approving and unironic way this time. Women crying is all about how it makes the men feel. Chet defies parody.