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Next entry: Corrupt capitalism trumps First Amendment Previous entry: CSA Week 22: A Day Late Edition

Yes, Katie, there is sexual harassment

ChoadsFeminismLabor

I almost don't want to respond to Katie Roiphe's evidence-free assertion that most sexual harassment is just a matter of over-sensitive feminists trying to destroy the male libido. It's hard for me to look at Roiphe in general, since at 43 years old, she still is playing that game where you try to establish yourself as a fun, free-spirited girl by bashing other women. It's "Curb Your Enthusiasm"-level embarrassing when performed by an 18-year-old who hasn't yet figured out that the men that attracts are no good; but it's epically worse if you're a grown woman with a divorce and a child to raise under your belt. It makes people wonder what kind of bubble you live in that maturity just passed you by. I'll never really be able to forgive Roiphe for characterizing acquaintance rape as nothing but bad sex---and therefore characterizing people like me, who did in fact need help to recover (from being assaulted; I can take bad sex in stride and there is a big fucking difference) completely as being nothing but oversensitive babies---but seeing her trot that same hair-twiriling "you can harass me any time, guys!" act out at her age just fills me with pity. Even as she cashes that NY Times paycheck while doing no real research that could actually upend her baseless assertions. 

Let's start at the top:

After all these years, we are again debating the definition of unwanted sexual advances and parsing the question of whether a dirty joke in the office is a crime. Conservatives have mocked the seriousness of sexual harassment; liberal and mainstream pundits have largely reverted to the pieties of the early ’90s, with the addition of some bloggy irony about irrelevant old men just not getting it.

Got it. Making jokes on blogs is Not Funny---oh my god, the feelings of old men, no matter how rude or bigoted, must be protected at all costs---but waggling your tongue at your coworker until she squirms and wonders if she can escape your attention without being groped is just fun times. If this strikes you as backwards, you forgot the golden rule, which is that having a penis automatically makes you better and more deserving of rights and protection.

The problem is, as it always was, the capaciousness of the concept, the umbrellalike nature of the charge: sexual harassment includes both demanding sex in exchange for a job or a comment about someone’s dress. 

Ah yes, the "just a compliment" excuse. I addressed this recently in a blog post:

You often hear, though far less than you used to, this notion that cat-calling was a compliment and only stupid women could therefore object to it. But it was, along with Hill's mendacity, an article of faith in my community that I was ugly and probably a lesbian and no one male could ever actually want to defile themselves by liking me. Thus, it was literally impossible for a lewd gesture to be a compliment. Most of the boys who did this stuff to me would have sooner endured someone putting a cigarette out on their arms than actually have anyone believe for a second they thought that someone like me was anything but scum for spitting on. I had no illusions, none, about what cat calls and groping meant. It was putting you in your place, a casual reminder that you had no value in their eyes and, more importantly, so little value to the community at large that no one would ever come to your defense. And no one ever did.

The nastiness aimed at those who are just coming out now and those who got settlements in the past also make this clear. Cain was not "complimenting" anyone. There are a couple flavors of sexual harassment, and his favorite seemed to be implying that women he came on to were loose women who had to take all comers. There's nothing wrong with having sex with multiple people, of course, but believing that automatically makes it a compliment when some sexist old fuck implies you're a slut is like saying that because there's nothing wrong with being gay, you should just roll over if someone spits the word "dyke" at you. 

The words used in workshops — “uncomfortable,” “inappropriate,” “hostile” — are vague, subjective, slippery. Feminists and liberal pundits say, with some indignation, that they are not talking about dirty jokes or misguided compliments when they talk about sexual harassment, but, in fact, they are: sexual harassment, as they’ve defined it, encompasses a wide and colorful spectrum of behaviors.

This, of course, is bullshit. She's gone full wingnut now, invoking the common wingnut assumption that the law never has language in it that might, say, need the interpretation of courts and lawyers. In the real world, that's what the law is. Most cases, especially civil cases, aren't about cut-and-dry things like murder. She's simply pretending there's no "reasonable person" standard, even though such a standard is used in many other situations besides sexual harassment. (Where's her broadside against loitering laws, by the way?) The problem with making a long list of words and gestures to refrain from is that it simply gives harassers plausible deniability. If you can't call someone a slut, you just sidle up to her in an enclosed space and start saying things like, "Were you up late last night? With your boyfriend? Is he good to you, if you know what I mean? Does he know what he's doing when he's taking out the trash?" Or whatever. As the Clarence Thomas situation showed, sexual harassers are endlessly inventive with their euphemisms or gestures. If anything, they deliberately act as weird as possible in an act that is so common that psychologists have a name for it: gaslighting, i.e. acting strange to disorient the victim so that she doubts herself or has others doubt her sanity. So you do things like put pubic hairs on Coke cans, because you know that accomplishes the twin goals of making the victim feel harassed while making it hard to explain to others what just happened to her. Thus, the language of "uncomfortable" and "hostlie" is good language, since a reasonable person can see that putting a pubic hair on a Coke can is a hostile gesture designed to make the victim uncomfortable. 

Of course, that's all even just assuming a straight up sexual harassment lawsuit. Most sexual harassment situations are handled by the management and never at all in a court of law. I don't know what kind of world Roiphe lives in, but in the real world, there's a lot of "ambiguous" words in employee rules and handbooks. If your employee handbook, for instance, bans "revealing" clothes, it rarely has a skin-to-cloth ratio spelled out in demonstrable numbers. 

A study recently released by the American Association of University Women shows that nearly half of students in grades 7 through 12 have experienced sexual harassment. Their definition is “unwelcome sexual behavior that takes place in person or electronically.” Which would seem to include anyone who has been called a “whore” or “so hot” on Facebook, or is jokingly or not jokingly propositioned.

Remember in "Carrie" how they pretended to elect her Homecoming Queen just to mock her? In Roiphe's world, Carrie should have been grateful to get the crown, and is merely paranoid for thinking there was any bullying going on there. In the real world, one cannot simply separate an occasional comment from its context, particularly with adolescents. Being called "so hot" by your actual boyfriend is not harassment. Being called "so hot" or a "whore" in the context of pervasive harassment can often be traumatizing. Leora Tanenbaum's book Slut! Growing Up Female with a Bad Reputation is useful for understanding how serious this problem is.

By the way, I'm looking forward to Roiphe's denunciation of Dan Savage's It Gets Better project, where she scoffs at the idea that pantsing a kid and calling him "fag" on a daily basis should be a matter of concern, and not just a delightful expression of youthful boisterousness that shouldn't be troubled by the high suicide rate amongst gay teens.

The creativity and resourcefulness of the definitions, the broadness and rigor of the rules and codes, have always betrayed their more Orwellian purpose: when I was at Princeton in the ’90s, the guidelines distributed to students about sexual harassment stated, “sexual harassment may result from a conscious or unconscious action, and can be subtle or blatant.” It is, of course, notoriously hard to control one’s unconscious, and one can behave quite hideously in one’s dreams, but that did not deter the determined scolds.

Of course, she's assuming that the harasser is an upstanding citizen who, when confronted, will be completely honest about his intentions, which makes such language strange indeed. In the real world, harassers use Roiphe's excuse that they were just kidding around (and the guy who sexually assaulted me claimed he was just trying to tickle me, though he chose a strange place to tickle!). Creating a "kidding around" loophole for sexual harassers is like creating a "religious belief" loophole for bullies, which is to say it makes the rules meaningless. You'd be surprised what you could claim with a straight face was meant to be a joke or a well-intentioned gesture, including cornering people and groping them. Even stalkers claim they're just trying to be nice. That's why they can't have the loophole. 

If this language was curiously retrograde in the early ’90s, if it harkened back to the protection of delicate feminine sensibilities in an era when that protection was patently absurd, it is even more outdated now when women are yet more powerful and ascendant in the workplace. 

Back to Roiphe's typical schtick of hair-curling and inviting harassment. The problem isn't that many men casually dominate and harass women for shits and giggles, it's that women don't roll over and take it! That makes women "weak"! In reality, of course, standing up to a harasser is an act of courage, especially since you have to put up with shit from the likes of Roiphe. Pandering to sexist men for condescending head pats for being better than most of 'em (but certainly not equal to men) is the weak behavior. 

And, in fact, the majority of women in the workplace are not tender creatures and are largely adept at dealing with all varieties of uncomfortable or hostile situations.

For instance, instead of simply taking it as Roiphe expects you to do, you can stand up to the harasser. Then she'll label you as weak and fragile, but in reality, you're strong. 

Show me a smart, competent young professional woman who is utterly derailed by a verbal unwanted sexual advance or an inappropriate comment about her appearance, and I will show you a rare spotted owl.

You see this excuse trotted out a lot when it comes to sexual abuse and violence, that unless the victim is utterly destroyed, it doesn't count. If we end up learning more about Jerry Sandusky's victims, we may even see it if it's discovered that they did well in school or got a good job. This excuse turns what should be a point of pride for the victim, that they survived, into an excuse for the attacker. Notice, too, that Roiphe requires that the harassment utterly derail you. Perhaps the harassment you're enduring at work is merely causing you to lose sleep, pull into a coccoon, refuse to take assignments that could help out your career for fear of having to spend more time with the harasser, and killing your sex life because the harassment is making you anti-horny. You're not utterly derailed, though! You're still hanging in as you wonder how much of a pay cut you're willing to take to get another job away from the harasser. So by the magical properties of male privilege, his right to come into your office and "compliment" you by humping your desk shouldn't be curtailed, because hey, you're breathing, aren't you?

Worth pointing out again: Roiphe is, without a shred of evidence, claiming that sexual harassment complaints and lawsuits are generally about a single comment or quickly dispatched advance. In reality, for something to rise to the level of sexual harassment, it has to be a "hostile work environment", aka persistent abuse. No one is getting it for one day saying something a little off-color, and it's intellectually dishonest for her to suggest otherwise. In fact, I would call her implication a straight up falsehood. 

Codes of sexual harassment imagine an entirely symmetrical universe, where people are never outrageous, rude, awkward, excessive or confused, where sexual interest is always absent or reciprocated, in other words a universe that does not entirely resemble our own. 

False, it assumes that people can and often are rude and abusive, and that we should respond accordingly so as to minimize the damage to others. Plus, I reject this ongoing notion that there's no difference between politely asking for a date in a situation where you signal willingness to be refused without violence and cornering someone, calling them names, threatening their job, or pestering them until they start to wory that violence is coming. If Roiphe has a bunch of examples of men approaching women in public spaces with easy escape routes, asking politely, taking no for an answer, never bringing it up again, and still being hit with a sexual harassment suit and losing, I'd like to see those examples. 

We don’t legislate against meanness, or power struggles, or political maneuvering, or manipulation in offices, and how could we? 

False. There are all sorts of laws and rules restraining that behavior. If I tried to make a co-worker I don't like leave the job by taking a shit on their desk, I'd be fired. Using sexual abusiveness instead of fecal matter doesn't suddenly make that behavior okay.

Obviously there is a line, which if the allegations against Mr. Cain are true, he has crossed, but there are many behaviors loosely included under the creative, capacious rubric of sexual harassment that do not cross that line.

She doesn't have any examples, of course, but hey, we all know that all those other bitches are crazy, don't we? (Giggle, hair twirl.) No need to prove it!

In our effort to create a wholly unhostile work environment, have we simply created an environment that is hostile in a different way? 

I agree. The rules against shitting on desks are hostile to those who enjoy shitting on desks. In trying to create a shit-free work environment, we are discriminating against those who want to distribute their fecal matter willy-nilly, unrestrained by your puritanical American bullshit. You laugh, but hey, if we maybe made a rule where only men get to shit in public, and they only get to shit on women's stuff, maybe we could get Roiphe to support it. 

 Is it preferable or more productive, is it fostering a more creative or vivid office culture, for everyone to vanish into Facebook and otherwise dabble online?  Maybe it’s better to live and work with colorful or inappropriate comments, with irreverence, wildness, incorrectness, ease.

Is it preferable or more productive, is it fostering a more creative or vivid office culture, for everyone to vanish into the bathroom to dispose of their feces?  Maybe it’s better to live and work with colorful or inappropriate hygiene, with occasional turds distributed about the office.

Her entire argument about relaxing the professionalism around the office is a red herring, which is why I keep returning to the shit thing. Allowing people to harass each other isn't a charming bit of relaxed office politics like wearing jeans to work.  Most---pretty much all---of the stuff we call "sexual harassment" isn't welcome under any circumstances. Even if you're in a bar, a guy waiting until no one is looking and making lewd gestures is scary. If you're on a subway platform, having someone walk up and hump you isn't fun. Even at a party, no one likes creepy old dudes cornering you and implying that because you're young and single, you must be up for blowing anyone who asks at a moment's notice. The difference between those situation and work is that you don't have as many options when it comes to leaving your job. The harasser is holding your need to make money (or get an education) against you. 

But you know what? Even in non-work situations, we don't as a society think it's all that great to tolerate sexual harassment. Half the reason we have bouncers in bars is so they can toss out guys who grope unwilling women. All we evil feminists are asking for is that the workplace have similar protections. 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 09:13 AM • (85) Comments

Right on.

Comment #1: Archie  on  11/14  at  10:39 AM

Isn’t the only public accusation against Herman Cain that he reached up Sharon Bialek’s skirt, shoved her head in his crotch, and told her to go along with it if she wanted a job?  I missed any statement from an accuser where she says she wants to take Cain to court because he once told her she had good taste in shoes.

Comment #2: Inspector Spacetime  on  11/14  at  11:04 AM

Yeah, Roiphe tries to weasel out of that with the “if it’s true, then blah blah serious” thing. Which literally means that the sole example of sexual harassment that she even references in the entire piece is one where she has to admit it’s pretty bad. She produces exactly zero counter-examples of lawsuits regarding “nice shoes” offered sans context turning into a sexual harassment lawsuit, much less a successful one.

Comment #3: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/14  at  11:15 AM

Regarding “innocent misunderstandings”:
It is possible for someone lacking in social skills to do or say something that makes someone else feel threatened. I’ve done it myself (in middle school, I once followed a girl to her next class because I wasn’t picking up on the fact that she wanted me to leave her alone.). The thing is, once I found out that what I was doing was upsetting, I *STOPPED*. What I *DIDN’T* do was complain about how sexual harassment laws are so restrictive. If I *HADN’T* stopped, then I *WOULD* have been willingly harassing her, which is WHY THOSE LAWS EXIST IN THE FIRST PLACE!
To put it in Roiphe’s terms, show me someone who would rather file a harassment suit, disrupting her life, opening herself up to tons of public scrutiny, and permanently altering the way her coworkers relate to her than just ask the guy to leave her alone first, and I’ll show you a figment of the conservative imagination.

Comment #4: DataSnake  on  11/14  at  11:17 AM

Excellent point, Data. When you look at real-world sexual harassment lawsuits, what you generally see is that the victim first tried to resolve the problem by addressing either the person who was making them uncomfortable or going to H.R. You generally sue only after attempts at peaceable recourse have been exhausted. You’re not going to win a case where you sued first, either. The defense would eat you alive in court for not exhausting the other options first. Odds are, you signed some kind of contract saying you had to, anyway.

Comment #5: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/14  at  11:24 AM

But you know what? Even in non-work situations, we don’t as a society think it’s all that great to tolerate sexual harassment. Half the reason we have bouncers in bars is so they can toss out guys who grope unwilling women. All we evil feminists are asking for is that the workplace have similar protections. 

But that’s the point. Women shouldn’t be in the workplace at all, except to serve you coffee and give you something nice to look at. And what’s all that female ass for if not to be grabbed once in a while? If women do the same jobs as men and get treated the same as men, they’ll turn into men, and your dick just won’t get sucked anymore. You have to remind them that they’re still women and you still have a dick, in case anyone’s forgotten.

Comment #6: junk science  on  11/14  at  11:24 AM

And, in fact, the majority of women in the workplace are not tender creatures and are largely adept at dealing with all varieties of uncomfortable or hostile situations.

...

Show me a smart, competent young professional woman who is utterly derailed by a verbal unwanted sexual advance or an inappropriate comment about her appearance, and I will show you a rare spotted owl.

Right. So maybe when someone DOES go through the trouble of mkaing a sexual-harassment claim, there’s maybe something to it?

Obviously there is a line, which if the allegations against Mr. Cain are true, he has crossed ...

Well then find another subject to write about in the fucking New York Times.

Comment #7: RickMassimo  on  11/14  at  11:35 AM

“You look nice today” == Compliment
“Your ass looks nice today” == Harassment

Comment #8: Hector B.  on  11/14  at  11:54 AM

Shorter Katie Roiphe: Straw man, straw man, straw man, straw man, straw man, straw man, thank you goodnight!

Comment #9: Jake  on  11/14  at  11:57 AM

I used to think somewhat as Roiphe does.

Theb I got a job, in an office, with people who, I think, were neither atypically disinclined to harass nor atypically willing to accept harassment, and I saw the sort of behavior deemed acceptible. I never noticed, as she seems to imagine, anybody get in trouble for acknowledging sex exists, or even that it touches the lives of us co-workers.

“uncomfortable,” “inappropriate,” “hostile” — are vague, subjective,

“Uncomfortable” can be vague, in the sense that there’s a not insignificant grey area, but vaguness is not inevitable. I’ll give her subjective there, though “subjective” isn’t the same as “idiosyncratic” and isn’t the deep mystery she intends to suggest. “Hostile” is not vague; “hostile” is straightforward (not to mention clearly defined in this context).

No one is getting it for one day saying something a little off-color

Is it possible for someone to earnestly believe that happened to him? “I never knew someone could get completely smashed from one bottle of beer, I wonder which one it was.”

Hector, 8:

“You look nice today” == Compliment
“Your ass looks nice today” == Harassment

And the first time it doesn’t even always get treated as harassment. A hostile environment almost always means repeated incidents—one ass-grab might do it, but I’m not sure a single ass-compliment would.

Comment #10: Hershele Ostropoler  on  11/14  at  12:11 PM

  I second Amanda in seconding DataSnake’s point. There are several easy ways to distinguish sexual harassement from flirting. One way is when the harasser persists in his behavior even when told to desist by the woman he thinks he is only flirting with. Other easy ways to distinguish between sexual harasesment and flirting include the inital lewdness of the comments and unwelcomed physical touching. Flirting will generally start a bit more innocently than sexual harassement and usually starts completely vocally with no touching. Its really not that hard to flirt with a woman without harassing her. Well, its kind of hard but not that difficult.

    Hershele and Hector: I suppose there could be a social situation where commenting on a person’s ass as the initial flirt doesn’t count as harassement but I can’t think of one. Maybe at a gym or somewhere else that is very physical and/or sexual. I’m leaning towards Hector’s interpretation that “you ass looks nice today” counts as harassment. Overly aggressive/impolite language is probably another good way of distinguishing flirtation with harassment.

Comment #11: Lee  on  11/14  at  12:27 PM

Is it possible for someone to earnestly believe that happened to him? “I never knew someone could get completely smashed from one bottle of beer, I wonder which one it was.”

You see claims on here once in a while from one-shot commenters that all they did was ask a woman out once, meekly and politely, and they ended up getting symbolically castrated for it. They seem pathetic enough that you almost believe their social skills are really that malformed.

Comment #12: junk science  on  11/14  at  12:29 PM

I learned in fifth grade that any word can be turned into an insult when a bully called me a ‘hairdo’. A hairdo! Can there be a more innocuous word? And yet, she said it said with such scorn and mocking and sneering that I felt it cut to the bone. There was no mistaking the cruel intent, but if I’d told a teacher, what would they have done? There’s no rule against the word hairdo.

By the same token, almost anything can be made to sound dirty. This amuses my husband and me to no end (oh baby, way to steam clean my carpets!). But when a coworker makes everything into a double entendre, it’s not so funny.

Harassers use these tactics all the time. They don’t need to resort to a list of forbidden words to get their point across. They use words that give them plausible deniability and use looks and gestures to convey the message. When a victim then tries to complain, they come off sounding like the sibling crying, “Mom, he’s looking at me funny again.” Which means the harasser wins even if the victim complains.

Comment #13: Phoebe Fay  on  11/14  at  12:34 PM

Well this is Katie Roiphe—the woman who wrote “The Naked and the Conflicted” in the NY Times mourning the passage of the “aggressive virility” of the Mailer/Updike/Roth set. She seems to have some weird nostalgia for those days that I’ve never understood, and that she normalizes at every opportunity.

Ugh.

Also, she sounds like my mother—who was totally undone by the Anita Hill hearings in a way I’ll never understand—weeping and angry on the phone with me, telling me I had “no character” for believing a woman who would “accuse” a man “like that.” Still a big fat mystery to me, that episode.

Comment #14: cmf406  on  11/14  at  12:39 PM

There’s a simple rule I’ve followed for much of my professional life—don’t shit where you eat.  It may mean that I’ve missed out on potential relationships, but if I work with someone, I automatically exclude that person from consideration as a potential partner.  Friends—sure, if we share mutual interests.

The other dynamic that comes into play is the power dynamic.  Supervisor/subordinate reporting structures have too much at stake to even risk innocent flirtation.  Outside the immediate pair, the implied favoritism can damage morale in the organization. 

So, it is simple:  Don’t shit where you eat.

 

 

Comment #15: James  on  11/14  at  12:41 PM

“You look nice today” == Compliment
“Your ass looks nice today” == Harassment

The context is really more important than the content. The fact that the ass comment is unwanted is more important than the fact that it’s about her ass. But generally I find that if a woman (or really, any person) wants you to talk about her ass, she’ll let you know. Harassment is a huge issue because of guys who either don’t give a shit whether or not the woman wants to hear it, or who get off on asserting their male privilege by blatantly ignoring the fact that the woman doesn’t want to hear it.

So I mean, I can imagine situations where it’s acceptable to talk about your co-worker’s ass, but if you’re in such a situation, you’ll probably know. And if you’re not and you do it anyway and she expresses discomfort or otherwise complains, the proper response is, “Werps, sorry,” not, “Damn sensitive bitches, acting like their asses aren’t there for me to gawk at.”

Comment #16: Triplanetary  on  11/14  at  12:57 PM

One of the distinctions that Roiphe just glides over, and that I think could use a little more attention, is that there is a difference between sexual harassment law (in which the bar for proving harassment is pretty high, requiring “serious and/or pervasive” harassment and using a “reasonable person” standard), and the kinds of codes of conduct that employers and colleges have, which may indeed be much more vague and inclusive; it’s certainly possible to get fired or suspended from school for conduct that wouldn’t render you vulnerable to a lawsuit.  And I’ve known men who have shied away even from perfectly consensual exchanges like reciprocating the flirtation of a woman at work, for fear that somehow they could run afoul of the rules. 

I mention all this not to agree with Roiphe but to say: so what?  If the sexual harassment policies issued by HR offices err on the side of caution, and if some men have to think twice about whether behavior that comes naturally to them might offend someone, why is that the Worst Thing Ever?  The idea that women should be “tough” while men should be protected from the horror of ever having to leave unsaid something they genuinely think is funny reminds me of white people who get all pissed that they aren’t allowed to throw the word “nigger” around.  Those of us on the other side of those gender and racial lines have always had to assume, often as a matter of survival, that language is powerful and has to be tailored to fit the situation; why all this hysteria about the possibility that white men might have to think a little harder than not-at-all before they open their traps?

Comment #17: professordarkheart  on  11/14  at  12:57 PM

Roiphe is ... claiming that sexual harassment complaints and lawsuits are generally about a single comment or quickly dispatched advance. In reality, for something to rise to the level of sexual harassment, it has to be a “hostile work environment”, aka persistent abuse. No one is getting it for one day saying something a little off-color, and it’s intellectually dishonest for her to suggest otherwise.

Bingo.  It’s the same thing we were talking about with the bullying statute.

Do conservatives really believe what she’s implying?  I have conservative relatives who appear to, and it may be tied up with their view of what sex is about and how men and women naturally interact, but I don’t know.  It wouldn’t explain why they are (or pretend to be) so worked up about the possibility that a nice, Christian boy could be expelled for calmly saying he thinks God doesn’t approve of homosexuality.

Comment #18: ScottInOH  on  11/14  at  12:58 PM

How long must we all pay until Katie Roiphe writes that final memoir “Fuck you, Mom: Encounters with Humorless Feminism.”

Comment #19: chicating  on  11/14  at  12:59 PM

cmf406: I actually like Philip Roth novels. Not so much a fan of Mailer or Updike.

Comment #20: Lee  on  11/14  at  01:15 PM

“Shorter Katie Roiphe: Straw man, straw man, straw man, straw man, straw man, straw man, thank you goodnight! Comment #9: Jake”

Git mah pitchfork!

Comment #21: ganews_  on  11/14  at  01:21 PM

If the sexual harassment policies issued by HR offices err on the side of caution, and if some men have to think twice about whether behavior that comes naturally to them might offend someone, why is that the Worst Thing Ever?  The idea that women should be “tough” while men should be protected from the horror of ever having to leave unsaid something they genuinely think is funny reminds me of white people who get all pissed that they aren’t allowed to throw the word “nigger” around.

Also, this.

Comment #22: ScottInOH  on  11/14  at  01:39 PM

I’ve worked with a few conservatives who truly believe women capriciously bring harassment lawsuits for huge payouts - they also tend to believe that any woman in a top executive position is there out of tokenism, but that’s another story.

I find the paranoia hilarious because in almost every workplace I’ve belonged to, the prevailing culture is that claiming harassment is silly and hysterical, and sometimes the specter of a reviled former employee who did bring charges is held up as an example of the person you don’t want to be, if you want to hang with the office cool kids. I’ve seen women try to score points by mocking political correctness and I’ve had many men do this odd performance of exaggerated fear and caution toward me, as if prodding me to say I too find the idea of harassment ridiculous and they don’t need to worry. In fact, every person I know who’s registered a formal complaint did so after protracted misery and much internal conflict, the kind where they woke up sick to their stomach each day at the thought of going in to work. It’s not a light decision.

Comment #23: Veronica  on  11/14  at  02:01 PM

Wikipedia has a good discussion of the legal definition of sexual harassment:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_harassment#EEOC_Definition

Roiphe doesn’t know what she is talking about.

Comment #24: lemmy caution  on  11/14  at  02:09 PM

Excellent point, Data. When you look at real-world sexual harassment lawsuits, what you generally see is that the victim first tried to resolve the problem by addressing either the person who was making them uncomfortable or going to H.R. You generally sue only after attempts at peaceable recourse have been exhausted. You’re not going to win a case where you sued first, either. The defense would eat you alive in court for not exhausting the other options first. Odds are, you signed some kind of contract saying you had to, anyway.

I can FILE a lawsuit against Amanda Marcotte for flying to Michigan and chopping down the spruce tree in my yard. People often get het up about the news that ridiculous lawsuit X was filed, (the lady from the Detroit burbs suing the producers of Drive for it not being more like the Fast and the Furious is my current favorite) but the suits get thrown out and I don’t think court staff are clairvoyant, so I don’t know how they’re supposed to stop me from filing crazy suits.

I’m sure it’s happened that some unbalanced or unscrupulous woman filed a totally insane sexual harassment lawsuit against a guy who made a totally innocent and nonsexual comment. But the fact that sexual harrassment law or rules have been misused makes them the same as every other rule, law regulation or by-law ever.

Nobody would suggest that my crazy lawsuit means feminist bloggers should be allowed cut anyone’s timber they so chose and no one should complain.

Hershele and Hector: I suppose there could be a social situation where commenting on a person’s ass as the initial flirt doesn’t count as harassement but I can’t think of one. Maybe at a gym or somewhere else that is very physical and/or sexual. I’m leaning towards Hector’s interpretation that “you ass looks nice today” counts as harassment. Overly aggressive/impolite language is probably another good way of distinguishing flirtation with harassment.

I was going to posit swingers club, but if Dan Savage is to be believed people at those places aggressively police any person who makes women uncomfortable or makes unwelcome advances to them. Which seems like a much more complicated and nuanced situation than making sure people can work at the National Restaraunt Association without being sexually harrassed. So, c’mon conservatives, catch up to the swingers on this.

Comment #25: witless chum  on  11/14  at  02:27 PM

Talk about being condemned out of your own mouth.  Seldom have I seen boxed quotes used to such devastating effect.

Comment #26: Dr. Psycho  on  11/14  at  02:33 PM

Excellent piece. I sometimes wonder if all these people who think that any kind of joke or sincere, nonsexually-oriented compliment will get one hit with a sexual harassment suit have ever even held a job. I suppose the only explanation is willful ignorance.

And just to weigh in from the Corporatocracy, I am completely convinced there was merit to the accusations leveled at Cain, simply for the fact that, in my experience with corporate legal and HR, companies do not go handing out tens of thousands of dollars anytime someone makes a complaint. They just don’t. I work for a much bigger company than the National Restaurant Association, where 40k means jack shit to the bottom line and there is no WAY that a settlement would be entered into before any type of complaint was filed, at least with the state agency, without some damning evidence. I refuse to believe the higher-ups at this company were really all that stupid.

Comment #27: chareth cutestory  on  11/14  at  02:36 PM

If this language was curiously retrograde in the early ’90s, if it harkened back to the protection of delicate feminine sensibilities in an era when that protection was patently absurd, it is even more outdated now when women are yet more powerful and ascendant in the workplace.

This is what I’m going to call the Stossel fallacy, wherein John Stossel thinks that since our environment is so much cleaner today than it was in the ‘60s when environmental regulations were passed, we don’t need environmental protections any longer.

Maybe the reason why women are ascendant in the workplace is *because* we’re protected from overt hostility from male coworkers.

Comment #28: keshmeshi  on  11/14  at  02:48 PM

That article made me fuming mad.  Thanks for the takedown, which was much more rational and grammatical than the one in my head.  I really don’t get why conservatives are so hell-bent on being able to tell dirty jokes and hit on women in the workplace.  Is it really that crucial to their productivity and creative processes?  I’ve literally never even heard of a woman suing her employer because someone gave her a genuine compliment or asked her on a date, let alone winning such a lawsuit.  Sexual harassment lawsuits are really hard to win, and women are often hesitant to file them because they don’t want to get a reputation as a troublemaker. 

I work in an office that takes sexual harassment compliance extremely seriously, and I know of co-workers dating each other, so clearly it’s not an impediment.  People compliment each others’ appearances, too, and no lawsuits!  Somehow we manage to be friendly and jokey and yet—not sexually harass anyone!  It’s amazing!  It’s like there’s a middle ground between a free-for-all and a humorless uptight office environment!

Comment #29: Kit-Kat  on  11/14  at  02:49 PM

Shorter Katie Roiphe: Straw man, straw man, straw man, straw man, straw man, straw man, thank you goodnight!

Straw men never harassed anyone, therefore she’s right!

Comment #30: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  11/14  at  02:52 PM

Perhaps she can apply for a job at the National Review.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/282007/first-thing-we-do-john-derbyshire

John Derbyshire opens up with:

Is there anyone who thinks sexual harassment is a real thing? Is there anyone who doesn’t know it’s all a lawyers’ ramp, like “racial discrimination“?

Comment #31: bexley  on  11/14  at  03:03 PM

It’s like there’s a middle ground between a free-for-all and a humorless uptight office environment!

Of course, even a free-for-all would be fine if many men weren’t determined to put women in their place and constantly badger them for thinking they’re more than sex objects. But of course Roiphe’s whole premise is that such harassment is actually natural, ideal gender relations.

Comment #32: Triplanetary  on  11/14  at  03:03 PM

I also want to add, she’s playing word games.

I’m kinda shy and when overly-friendly co-workers are, well, overly-friendly it makes me “uncomfortable”.

The guy I eventually had to report to my managers for harassing me at work, he made me “uncomfortable”

Those were not at all the same feeling!

“Uncomfortable” in the context of sexual harassment is not the same as “uncomfortable” in the context of ‘this otherwise normal social interaction is too much for me because I’m shy’ and people should know that.

But she’s clearly trying to pretend like they’re not, so that she can claim that someone could get fired (or sued) for, like, talking too much to a shy person and making them “uncomfortable”.

Comment #33: Ruby  on  11/14  at  03:04 PM

... in my experience with corporate legal and HR, companies do not go handing out tens of thousands of dollars anytime someone makes a complaint. They just don’t. I work for a much bigger company than the National Restaurant Association, where 40k means jack shit to the bottom line and there is no WAY that a settlement would be entered into before any type of complaint was filed, at least with the state agency, without some damning evidence.

Yeah, the idea that a company that makes you sign three forms to get a new stapler or pay for a new uniform shirt or counts the number of minutes you spent taking your kid to the doctor is gonna turn around and write a $35,000 check to someone with a vague claim that someone made her uncomfortable in some way is another of those contradictions that conservatives would prefer we just slid past without thinking too much about.

Comment #34: RickMassimo  on  11/14  at  03:25 PM

But, but, Amanda, haven’t you seen Disclosure? Angry womens are out to f*ck me and destroy my life.

Comment #35: JonE  on  11/14  at  03:30 PM

I haven’t felt this depressed about academia since I found out Glenn Reynolds is a law professor.

Comment #36: Sour Kraut  on  11/14  at  03:39 PM

No, no, JonE.  Angry women are trying to fuck you over and destroy your life.

Comment #37: helen w. h.  on  11/14  at  03:52 PM

I sometimes wonder if all these people who think that any kind of joke or sincere, nonsexually-oriented compliment will get one hit with a sexual harassment suit have ever even held a job.

If you don’t push it, you’ll never find out where the line is.  I couldn’t honestly tell you what’s acceptable and what’s not at my workplace, because I stay as far the fuck away from anything anyone might think unacceptable as I can practically manage.

Comment #38: Brian  on  11/14  at  03:53 PM

This is what I’m going to call the Stossel fallacy, wherein John Stossel thinks that since our environment is so much cleaner today than it was in the ‘60s when environmental regulations were passed, we don’t need environmental protections any longer.

Maybe the reason why women are ascendant in the workplace is *because* we’re protected from overt hostility from male coworkers.

This. Laws exist because, unfortunately, at any given time some portion of the population is going to be acting like a self-involved asshat. It’s a feature, not a bug, with humanity.

I walk my dog two-miles a day, five days a week. In general, the vast majority of people I encounter obey the leash law, or at least, leash Fido when approaching other dog walkers, joggers, bikers, horse riders, etc. I’m a huge fan of leash laws because I don’t want someone else’s dog gallumphing up to mine. Frankly, the antics of an overly “friendly” dog borders on harassment. (Of course, this is where someone will say I’m a dog hater; a mean beanie-weenie who just doesn’t understand that dogs will be dogs, and that their little angel wouldn’t hurt a fly.  To which I’ll note that several of my friends’ dogs were mauled by “friendly” dogs who were just being dogs.)

I’ve had run-ins with two people, both older white males, who refused to control their dogs. One defended his behavior with the usual, “He’s harmless,” followed by calling me a cunt, when I said, “I don’t care if he’s harmless.”  The second, again, refused to even call his dog to him, then, when I chased it off with my stick, rushed at me and tried to physically threaten me. When I shoved him off, he claimed I assaulted him. (I laughed at that. I’m female, about 5’4’, 110 pounds.)

What’s striking about both men is that I know they think I’m the unreasonable one. I also suspect that they are using their pets in a kind of passive aggressive game. Acting all butt hurt when someone calls them on their behavior.  With this latest jerk, I’m just going to call animal control every time I see him. The funny thing is, I really hate doing even that because deep down, I feel like a whiner. (As I imagine, a women whose been pushed to far in the workplace, feels.)

Both men are exactly why there are leash laws. Because again, a certain percentage of the population will push the boundaries, actively try to exert their dominance by generating a negative response.  Similarly, there will always be companies that will pollute the water and air in the absence of laws. And there will always be men (and some women) who will sexually harass others.  And because simply “talking” to these perpetrators, explaining why their behavior is unacceptable, isn’t enough.

There are times when only the force of the law will get someone to comply. It’s a necessity when living in a complex, interconnected society.

Comment #39: adobedragon  on  11/14  at  03:53 PM

The “utterly derailed” standard pisses me off because it misses the whole point that decent people just don’t do those kinds of things. Sure, making someone use a different water fountain from everyone else in the building doesn’t utterly derail them, or even really have an impact on their job performance. But it’s discrimination, it’s wrong, and it’s almost certainly unlawful.

Comment #40: paul  on  11/14  at  03:57 PM

One contributing factor to people dismissing claims of sexual harassment is that they don’t hear the whole story, just the side the harasser is sharing, because the person being harassed doesn’t particularly like rehashing the whole thing over and over (plus the typical reaction is disbelief or minimizing).

Comment #41: oldfeminist  on  11/14  at  04:00 PM

The Stossel Fallacy aka “why do we need traffic lights when traffic moves in an orderly fashion through intersections already?”

Comment #42: oldfeminist  on  11/14  at  04:03 PM

Utterly derailed?  No.  Upset, nauseated, angry, and embarrassed?  Yes.  Apparently Roiphe doesn’t mind that, but I find it harder to work when I feel that way.

Comment #43: Kit-Kat  on  11/14  at  04:32 PM

I think the woman who files the sexual harrassment complaint after a single innocent joke is the same woman who gets an abortion at 38 weeks of a perfectly healthy pregnancy, just for the lulz.

It’s a big world, and it must have happened once out of a population of 7 billion humans, but is so unlikely as to be a complete red herring.

Is there a name for whatever logical fallacy it is to argue as if an extreme caricature of your opponent’s position is reality and just run with it?

Comment #44: KristinMH  on  11/14  at  04:51 PM

a certain percentage of the population will push the boundaries, actively try to exert their dominance by generating a negative response

I would add that a certain percentage of the population is convinced the laws just don’t apply to them. Their sense of entitlement combined with an utter lack of empathy is why the rest of us need laws against them and their behavior.

“You look nice today” == Compliment
“Your ass looks nice today” == Harassment

Harassment is never about the words, it is always about the context (I will state that some words are never delivered except with the intent on bullying/harassing). The distinction is going to be made based on if the person receiving the comment feels harassed: because of past interactions, because of contextual information such as how the one delivering these lines stood or acted, etc. Harassment is bullying behavior steeped in a large quantity of entitlement with a pinch of sexual malice and then shaken, not stirred.

 

Comment #45: Vir Modestus  on  11/14  at  04:59 PM

Is there a name for whatever logical fallacy it is to argue as if an extreme caricature of your opponent’s position is reality and just run with it?

I’m pretty sure the technical term is “bad faith.”

One more thing and then I’m done thinking about Katie Roiphe.  It’s this: why does she never consider the possibility that sexual harassment regulations might actually work to reduce the incidence of sexual harassment (you know, the stuff that’s over that invisible “line” she feels obliged to acknowledge)?  No, I’m not particularly turned on by the sound of a “drab, cautious, civilized, quiet, comfortable workplace.”  Yes, I’d rather have a “creative or vivid office culture.”  For the record, I don’t for a second buy the idea that the invention of sexual harassment as a concept destines us to toil away in the former and forfeit the latter; I’ve actually worked in offices that refute the claim.  But what if I pulled a Katie Roiphe, and moved into a completely fictional Worst-Case-Scenario world?  If even a few women’s careers at my workplace weren’t destroyed, and their mental health was preserved, at the expense of my fun times at the office?  I’d like to think I’d at least consider whether it was worth the sacrifice.  The fact that Roiphe doesn’t is all the evidence I need that her goal is actually to suggest that there’s no such thing as any sexual harassment that’s worth responding to in any way.

Comment #46: professordarkheart  on  11/14  at  05:09 PM

One of the things that struck me about the way people in Barcelona behaved was the street interactions between men and women.  The ones I witnessed were respectful ... actually, almost overly respectful.

On three separate occasions, I was walking a bit behind a rather attractive young woman as we approached a group of young men.  The young men jostled each other a bit to draw attention to the young woman.

Uh oh ... here it comes ... and ...

Suddenly, they all stepped aside, stood up straight, and politely greeted the woman one by one, making eye contact.  In return, they got a smile and a greeting.  Once others passed, they jostled each other again.

The first time, I was amazed.  The second, impressed.  I don’t know if I was just in some classy part of the city, but the goal of these young men was to get attention and impress with civility.

Then again, this is a culture where any excessive display of masculinity and femininity seems tacky ... the goal seemed to be stylish refinement for both genders ... in clothing and manner.

Why is it so damned hard to just behave yourself respectfully and act like a grownup?

Comment #47: Ms Kate  on  11/14  at  05:17 PM

...which is that having a penis automatically makes you better and more deserving of rights and protection.

I’m asking you politely and sincerely, please stop with the cissexist snark. There are lots of people in the world, many of whom would like to read your blog and not feel othered, for whom having a penis is exactly the thing that makes them less worthy of rights, and leaves them among the most unprotected. Speaking from experience, I’ve been fired from my job, denied service, sexually harassed, sexually assaulted, and violently accosted, but I’m not “woman enough” apparently to access even the basic legal rights, services, or resources available to cis women. Please stop contributing to the culture that makes that okay.

Comment #48: Renee_in_Mich  on  11/14  at  05:47 PM

Re: Comment #39: adobedragon on 11/14 at 03:53 PM

I’ve had a similar experience, although a different setting:  As a pedestrian crossing a street at a corner with about nine other people, a guy with his girlfriend rolled through the stop sign into our group.  I jumped and bounced off his car - I was a bit startled when he rolled into my path.  He specifically followed us into the hotel and had them detain us and call the police for the ‘dent’ I put in his car.  The police officer asked him if he really wanted to report rolling into a group of pedestrians and denting his car.  He refused to share his insurance information or file a report and drove away…

...I just don’t get that kind of machismo.

Comment #49: Crissa  on  11/14  at  06:15 PM

PPS, ‘having a penis’ maybe cisgender sexism, but you know what?  It’s also unserious.  The patriarchy requires a large number of men to fail and flail.  So it obviously doesn’t mean penis=entitled.  It just means that no-penis≠entitled.

There’s no reason to be so picky about snark.

I too have been excluded, fired, yadayada for not being woman enough.  I’ll complain about things like ‘did you know that trap isn’t only a funny starwars meme, but they also use it to demean crossdressers and women?’ or ‘Choosing a pronoun for someone they didn’t choose for themselves is insulting.  Please don’t use made-up ones for people if they didn’t select them?’

Comment #50: Crissa  on  11/14  at  06:22 PM

Renee, I’m generally not feeling the notion that misogynists are a-okay with trans men and give them all sorts or privileges that they wouldn’t give women.

Comment #51: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/14  at  06:24 PM

Or trans women. There’s certainly no intention to snark at you, and apologize for hurting your feelings. It was a long rant, and I suppose I should have said, “has a penis and acts in accordance with the gender assigned at birth”.

Comment #52: Amanda Marcotte  on  11/14  at  06:26 PM

I would add that a certain percentage of the population is convinced the laws just don’t apply to them. Their sense of entitlement combined with an utter lack of empathy is why the rest of us need laws against them and their behavior.

There’s also a bit of romanticism about being an outlaw that’s a strand from the US national founding myth.* 

Why do you think romanticism of the rugged Wild West is so popular among many conservatives and why the perceived absence of laws and women which both symbolized “civilization” and thus “tyrannical constraints” was so appealing as a form of “Real Freedom”? 

Ironically, they don’t acknowledge/care/secretly feel good about the fact that most of those “Wild West” towns were quite tyrannical on the basis of who had more guns or were friends with the sheriff/local political elite.  They’re also unlikely to acknowledge that most of them would probably squirm if they had to actually live in the “Wild West” as it actually existed in history….as few have the survival skills or the ability to endure the levels of hardship required. 


* Heck, I find parts of this to be appealing myself….but not in the way they use it to effectively reinforce old-fashioned establishment norms.

Comment #53: exholt  on  11/14  at  07:34 PM

This is an awesome takedown of asshat conservatism but suffers from one of the major problems of its genre: in order to be effective, it needs to be longer than the asshattery it takes down.

Roiphe’s piece is pure David Brooks: a tissue of stereotypes, misrepresentations and bad logic so carefully constructed that even reasonably intelligent people will think it’s clear and compelling—especially since it reinforces their prejudices. It’s masterful rhetoric, really, and should be appreciated for its sophistication. It’s a particular form of anti-reason that the modern reactionary establishment has nearly perfected. We liberals/progressives, because of our bias toward rationality and evidence, can only refute it by takedowns that leave even our own supporters winded; we can’t just say that Brooks or Roiphe are agents of evil. Which is exactly what they rely upon.

Comment #54: felagund  on  11/14  at  07:48 PM

Brian@38 says: 

“If you don’t push it, you’ll never find out where the line is.” And he doesn’t know where the line is because he’s staying well on the non-harasser side of it.

If you’ve read the grand jury report in the Sandusky case you’ll see some vivid descriptions of “pushing” where Sandusky commits worse and worse transgressions against his boy victims’ physical autonomy while they try to edge away.  That’s the behavior of sexual harassers in the office and sexual assailants in the locker room:  pushing a little more and a little more and always ready to claim “I was just kidding” when they’re caught approaching or crossing the line.

As Brian says, decent people never get anywhere near the line so they’ll never need to know the exact definition of how much harassment is too much.

Comment #55: Nutella  on  11/14  at  07:48 PM

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a harassment complaint filed over the type of vaguely-dirty double-entendre joke that workers of both genders make with one another—when there is a certain level of trust among them and no power differential. (otherwise, almost every nurse at the last hospital I worked for would be shown the door!) I don’t even see complaints made when men come on to a female coworker, as long as they take “no” for an answer. But, Katie Roiphe does do a swell job of demolishing these strawmen. Well done.

Comment #56: morningstar  on  11/14  at  07:56 PM

The idea that women should be “tough” while men should be protected from the horror of ever having to leave unsaid something they genuinely think is funny reminds me of white people who get all pissed that they aren’t allowed to throw the word “nigger” around. 

Also, I can say from experience that once we become genuinely tough, as in insensitive to anything, and once we hold males to the same standard of “toughness” that they hold us, they seem not to like it at all.

When these men come to you with their sob stories about how life is treating them hard, you can apply the same standards of toughness to them as they apply to you. 

This generally makes them bleat and cry.

Some men really don’t want tough women.  Of course, others do: http://youtu.be/DmYfvWinnuU

Comment #57: scratchy888  on  11/14  at  08:52 PM

It’s hard for me to look at Roiphe in general, since at 43 years old, she still is playing that game where you try to establish yourself as a fun, free-spirited girl by bashing other women.

Katie Roiphe and I are the same age.  I don’t know why this depresses me so much, but it does.

Comment #58: Icewyche  on  11/14  at  09:33 PM

I should throw out that, I’m pretty sure a lot of her arguments are based on that old “Seinfeld Case” where some dude apparently was fired for Sexual Harassment after discussing a Seinfeld episode with a female co-worker and then he sued the company over it.

I don’t really remember the details of the case, and most of what Goggle’s giving me are pages about ‘frivolous’ harassment claims/lawsuits, so I don’t even know the merits of that one incident.

I do know that it was *one incident*, almost 10 years ago, that she seems to be using to dismiss any and all harassment claims today. Which is, of course, total BS.

Comment #59: Ruby  on  11/14  at  09:53 PM

It’s hard for me to look at Roiphe in general, since at 43 years old, she still is playing that game where you try to establish yourself as a fun, free-spirited girl by bashing other women.

Hell, Phyllis Schafly has been playing that game since Katie Roiphe was a gleam in her mom’s eye.  I’m afraid there’s no age limit.

Comment #60: Blue Jean  on  11/14  at  10:06 PM

Oh, wait, I know a guy who had to have a serious talk with HR after making some seriously off-color remarks around some female subordinates even though he had no intention of generating a hostile environment. Clearly Roiphe is right. Oh, wait again. There were no career repercussions for him at all, and after that talk he stopped making that kind of remark at work. His life was pretty much the opposite of ruined, ditto that of the people he worked around.  And that office continued to be a vibrant place to work.

Comment #61: paul  on  11/14  at  10:06 PM

Even in non-work situations, we don’t as a society think it’s all that great to tolerate sexual harassment. Half the reason we have bouncers in bars is so they can toss out guys who grope unwilling women.

That’s assault, not harassment.  As is the thing going on in the picture (assuming it’s not staged).

Comment #62: MDrew  on  11/14  at  10:32 PM

Regarding Roiphe’s behavior relative to her age, I guess it’s reassuring to me to know that I still have plenty of years in which to avoid growing up. (I recently turned 31.)

Regarding her complaints about the vagueness of sexual harassment policies: nonsense. Let me dig up my city government’s (and it’s quite a small city) sexual harassment policy some time. It’s extremely well-thought out. This very liberal (we’re not above nicknaming ourselves Commietown) municipality managed to come up with a set of guidelines that protect employees from a hostile environment while also protecting other employees from frivolous accusations. That “wide and colorful spectrum of behaviors” is not onerously difficult to avoid during the workday, and amazingly enough, the enforcement of those rules doesn’t stop the employees from having a colorful, energetic work environment. If you feel like you’re being “oppressed” because Management told you to knock it the hell off with the cornering your co-worker in the supply closet long after she asked you to please not do that again, then tough beans.

Comment #63: Alyson Miers  on  11/14  at  11:19 PM

I think anyone who writes b.s. like Katie Roiphe has here should be e-mailed a copy of a law review article I read recently. I recommend the article—it is written by Theresa Beiner, a leading scholar on the law of sexual harassment. (The Misuse of Summary Judgment in Hostile Environment Cases, 34 Wake Forest L. Rev. 71). It is from 1999, but the law on this particular aspect of sexual harassment cases has not changed much since then. The article discusses several cases that were actually thrown out of court because, according to the judges, no reasonable juror could possibly find that the work environment was hostile enough to qualify as sexual harassment.

Here are some quotes from the article about a few of these cases:

“In Hosey, a female supervisor at a McDonald’s restaurant made unwanted sexual advances toward a male subordinate. Specifically, she asked him out on numerous occasions and made offensive comments to him, including telling him ‘she would like to know what it felt like to have [him] inside her.’ She also touched him offensively on ten occasions, including grabbing his rear end and pinching him.” This case was thrown out and characterized by the court as “teenagers ... asking each other for dates.” (p. 106)

“In Blankenship, two seventeen year old hospital dietary aides claimed harassment by a forty-year-old male coworker. ... He told [one plaintiff] that ‘he was ‘falling in love’ with’ her. He tickled her on one occasion, hugged her and/or kissed her on the cheek on four occasions. He also approached her from behind and lifted her breasts. He repeatedly asked her out on a date. While the court agreed that [this] plaintiff presented a stronger case, it concluded that ‘neither Plaintiffs’ contentions definitively meet the applicable legal standard.’” (p. 110)

EEOC v. Champion International Corp.: “[A]n African-American woman named Jackson confronted a male co-worker, Butram, who was poking two female coworkers with a stick. According to Jackson, when the alleged harasser saw her observing this behavior, he shouted to her ‘What the fuck are you looking at!’ and allegedly told her he would make her job more difficult. He then shouted at her, ‘Suck my dick, you black bitch,’ while dropping his pants and holding his penis. In addition to this incident, another co-worker told fellow employees that he wanted to hang Jackson in a cornfield and that if she brought any gang-member friends to work, he would bury them in a cornfield. Finally, a fellow employee who was African-American found a Ku Klux Klan card posted on the inside of a beam at the factory where they worked.” The employer successfully had the case thrown out of the district court because the environment was not hostile enough. (p. 110-111)

Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to provide some facts as anecdote to the straw-harassee argument made by Roiphe and others.

Comment #64: Safron  on  11/14  at  11:42 PM

Alyson, exactly.  Aren’t these the same losers screaming “get a jerb” at any young person that they deem to be unemployed?  Then why can’t they manage to DO their JERB while acting like a grownup and showing some pretty basic respect to the people that they work with?

Are they just big diaper babies who can’t be expected to control themselves?

Comment #65: Ms Kate  on  11/14  at  11:46 PM

Lee, 11:

Hershele and Hector: I suppose there could be a social situation where commenting on a person’s ass as the initial flirt doesn’t count as harassement but I can’t think of one.

Yes, well, for reasons similar to Brian’s explanation at #38, I don’t really know how the law works. So my defense here is that I’m ...  talking out my ass. Hm.

I assume you only know how it works out of academic interest, of course.

Ruby, 33:

“Uncomfortable” in the context of sexual harassment is not the same as “uncomfortable” in the context of ‘this otherwise normal social interaction is too much for me because I’m shy’ and people should know that.

When people don’t know that, it’s almost always Upton Sinclair’s Rule in action.

MDrew, 62:

That’s assault, not harassment.  As is the thing going on in the picture (assuming it’s not staged).

I doubt Amanda would have used the picture if it weren’t consensual.

Comment #66: Hershele Ostropoler  on  11/15  at  12:38 AM

Yikes!  That “kidding around” exactly the language Sandusky (Penn State) is using.  It was just “horseplay.”

Comment #67: phylosopher  on  11/15  at  12:46 AM

I don’t mean to make an issue of what the actual situation that was going on when that picture was taken.  I’m not saying it’s not a picture of actually-occurring sexual assault; I simply don’t know.  The point is that what is being portrayed in it, and groping generally, is either sexual assault or battery or both, which, in addition to being things people get kicked out of bars for, are also things people get arrested and prosecuted for.  I don’t believe, however, that in most instances they constitute sexual harassment if they happens outside a workplace (perhaps I’m wrong).  It’s also true that even non-physical behavior can have these consequences - being an asshole to women will get you thrown out of many or most establishments, and using language in a way meant to and actually conveying threat to another person constitutes assault, also an arrestable criminal (misdemeanor) offense.  But these terms are precise legal ones, and I’m not sure that sexual harassment is one that applies outside the workplace, or in any case to most cases in which guys act like dicks around/commit crimes against women. But there’s no ambiguity about what it is that is getting you kicked out of a bar and/or arrested if you do what seen in the picture to someone who doesn’t want you to: sexual assault and/or battery.  Not (I don’t believe) sexual harassment.

Comment #68: MDrew  on  11/15  at  03:31 AM

Oh, Hershele #66, my apologies:  I misread you.  You’re saying you *do* think it was a picture taken for demo purpose or something like that. (I think?)  Yeah, that’s how it struck me too.

Comment #69: MDrew  on  11/15  at  03:34 AM

A good company fosters a nurturing environment, a place where people actually look forward to going to work. When sexual harassment is actually an issue you’re a long way from where you need to be, and if you’re having to deal with that you should also be looking at racism as well. Back when I was a company owner, a consultant pointed out that we tended to hire people who looked like us; when we mended our ways we found that it made things more interesting. I found staff meetings more tolerable the more women we had participating.

Our first experience with sexual harassment training, conducted by lawyers, was generally depressing. When one of them said he thought he could no longer compliment a woman on a new dress, I had to think he was doing it wrong, since you ought already to understand your relationship with the people you work with. One day our accounts receivable manager, a petite Indian woman, gave me a broad smile that called attention to her bright blue eyes, which after a second spun me around in a double take that cracked up both her and a fellow worker: New contact lenses. I guess I pay attention to eye color.

Our second experience, after we’d sold the company to a bigger competitor, was conducted by human resources types who acknowledged that we were doing well with a diverse workforce (which in California is taken for granted). It was subverted by rascals who knew better than the instructors: “We don’t need sexual harassment training. We already know how to do that.” One of the meetings drew complaints because the laughter was so loud as to be distracting.

That everyone was laughing is of course not evidence that there were no problems, but it is what you would expect in the sort of environment we we trying to encourage.

Comment #70: bad Jim  on  11/15  at  03:34 AM

@ Amanda

Thank you. My detractors notwithstanding, awareness around that kind of language would definitely be appreciated and increase the accessibility of your blog. And while I can’t speak for trans men, or trans people with non-binary identities, my experience has been that you’re pretty much right in that regard… any variation away from expected gender roles and/or traditional masculinity (both of which involve the presumption of certain kinds of anatomy), then you become vulnerable to people who are fulfilling one or both of those things.

Comment #71: Renee_in_Mich  on  11/15  at  06:20 AM

awareness around that kind of language would definitely be appreciated and increase the accessibility of your blog.

Keep in mind that Amanda has never marketed this blog as a “safe space” for people who might have problems “accessing” it over their personal sensitivities.

Comment #72: Tyro  on  11/15  at  08:45 AM

Tyro, are you seriously positing that transpeople should not be able to access this blog because of their “sensitivities?”  After all, they’re not you, so fuck ‘em?  Wow.

Comment #73: Atheist Feminazi  on  11/15  at  09:27 AM

I don’t mean to make an issue of what the actual situation that was going on when that picture was taken.  I’m not saying it’s not a picture of actually-occurring sexual assault; I simply don’t know.  The point is that what is being portrayed in it, and groping generally, is either sexual assault or battery or both, which, in addition to being things people get kicked out of bars for, are also things people get arrested and prosecuted for.  I don’t believe, however, that in most instances they constitute sexual harassment if they happens outside a workplace (perhaps I’m wrong).  It’s also true that even non-physical behavior can have these consequences - being an asshole to women will get you thrown out of many or most establishments, and using language in a way meant to and actually conveying threat to another person constitutes assault, also an arrestable criminal (misdemeanor) offense.  But these terms are precise legal ones, and I’m not sure that sexual harassment is one that applies outside the workplace, or in any case to most cases in which guys act like dicks around/commit crimes against women. But there’s no ambiguity about what it is that is getting you kicked out of a bar and/or arrested if you do what seen in the picture to someone who doesn’t want you to: sexual assault and/or battery.  Not (I don’t believe) sexual harassment.
Comment #68: MDrew on 11/15 at 03:31 AM

My supervisor groping me on the street or calling me at home to ask me what I’m wearing heh heh heh is still sexual harassment, even if it doesn’t happen in the workplace.  Without knowing who’s who in the picture we can’t tell if it qualifies.  But if those people work together and that’s a non-consensual grope, it sure as hell is sexual harassment.

However, I think the picture is similar to those “Eiffel tower/leaning tower of Pisa in your hands” pictures in that he’s probably a few feet closer to the camera than the woman’s buttocks and is just positioned exactly right to make it look like he’s touching her when he isn’t.  So there may not be a physical grope.

Nevertheless, if they work together and he posted this where she and/or others could see it, and she asked him to take it down, and he didn’t, or and there was a pattern of this behavior, that could be sexual harassment, too.

Comment #74: oldfeminist  on  11/15  at  09:28 AM

I only know of one “well all it was a ‘you look nice today’ compliment and maybe some flirting, yeesh they overreacted!” (and this is all work-related gossip, I didn’t witness no speak to either of the two involved) but it was a female fired for directing such compliments towards a man, despite being in the less powerful position of the two, so uh, perhaps it is inconceivable but maybe it isn’t just delicate lady flowers who want work to be for, you know, work.

Comment #75: Tenya  on  11/15  at  09:48 AM

Impossible, Tenya. Any man would love it if a (sufficiently hot) woman “sexually harassed” him. It’s only women who hate sex.

On the other hand, she was probably just trying to manipulate a promotion or a raise out of him, since women do love money. Not that they ever buy anything except sexy clothes and makeup that they shouldn’t be allowed to wear if they’re not going to put out for me.

Comment #76: junk science  on  11/15  at  10:13 AM

I used to work in one of these “borderline case” companies, and it still beats far more resemblance to Ananda’s vision than Roiphe’s. When the company was small there was a lot of mutual pranks going on, including sexualized ones (nsty porn on an unlocked computer) and the boss, who tended to be a bit of a clown anyways, would often make crude remarks for a laugh.

So why was it generally acceptable? Partly because it was reciprocal: he welcomed return fire. It was non-targeted, he behaved like that indiscriminitely; with both men and women. Most importantly, he let people know up front that if they didn’t appreciate his behavior they _should_ tell him to stop. That’s the difference between “joking around” and harassment: if people don’t appreciate the joke, there’s no point in continuing the joke; If people don’t appreciate harassment, it’s working as intended. Having my eyes opened to those who did engage in harassing or predatory behavior really highlighted the difference between the two.

It’s not a culture appropriate for every job. We were a creative studio that took risque work to begin with, so an environment comfortable with a bit of sex was a natural outgrowth. It should also be noted that he greatly reduced this behavior as the company grew too large for him to know everyone as friends, to specifically avoid misunderstandings.  He also may not have been so proactive about letting folks know when he should cut back had he not been hit by a harassment charge for such behaviour when he was younger.

Comment #77: Left_Wing_Fox  on  11/15  at  11:52 AM

@ Tyro

I never said she did, and I don’t presume that was a particular goal of hers. I simply advocated for her to make it one. Now, both out of respect to her cordial response and to the overall topic at hand, I’m not going to distract further from the great conversation at hand.

Comment #78: Renee_in_Mich  on  11/15  at  12:22 PM

What’s awful about Roiphe are her past writings and the complete ironies/hypocrisies therein.  So, she can blather in Slate about feeling stigmatized as a single mother and then write some sort of flippant op-ed in the NYT about sexual harrassment. 

So, the same woman (of privilege) wants sympathy from her fellow mommies about perceptions regarding her choice to be a single mother (with baby #2) gives a nice face-palm/b*tchslap to women in the context of unwanted sexual harrassment? 

Well, KR, you *chose* to be a single mother with your son.  So if you want the glory days of “men being men” and all that comes with it, then suck it the frak up and take that stigma like a good little girlie with tits.  Otherwise, STFU about comparing yourself with ANY woman unless they are vapid, flippant little creatures like yourself.

In full nastiness, I find it appalling that KR is also raising a daughter.

And I’d pretend to be aghast that the NYT would publish this, but it’s the same awful publication that has David (Frakkin’) Brooks and Ross Douchehat (Douthat) writing drivel along with a whole host of other offensive creatures.

Comment #79: avoidswork  on  11/15  at  03:32 PM

I didn’t know anything about Roiphe before I read this post, and Amanda’s article didn’t seem to say that this is consistent with her previous writings, so I went to Wikipedia.  According to the article on her there, her first book (1994) was about how women are (at least partly?) responsible for being victims of date rape.

Perhaps I’m insufficiently capital-P Progressive, but I don’t have enough outrage energy to waste all that much on awful people who are simply behaving true to type.  I’ll just drop her in the “misogynist” circular file.

Comment #80: AMM  on  11/15  at  05:06 PM

The picture illustrates harassment, at least here, but it could actually be a number of things:
* Harassment
* Staged harassment
* An entirely consensual grope between people in the sort of relationship in which that’s acceptable
* Two people standing a certain way, shot from a certain angle, as oldfeminist said
* A dancing lesson
* A bike-riding lesson
* A woman being measured for something
* Something else I haven’t thought of
* Two or more of the above

Comment #81: Hershele Ostropoler  on  11/15  at  06:13 PM

I can tell you that it was taken when the weather was warm, in a city on the East Coast or in Europe, to judge by the paving stones.

Comment #82: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  11/15  at  07:32 PM

#81: You left out “An open-air medical treatment.”

Comment #83: Eric_RoM  on  11/15  at  09:34 PM

“Where’s her broadside against loitering laws, by the way?”

Where’s her broadside against securities fraud?  Or employment discrimination?  Or wage and hour claims?  Or indeed any kind of litigation?

Because, let’s face it, allowing litigation is allowing a “he said, she said” situation.

Starting to see why conservatives hate lawyers?  because only lawyers stop them from getting away with their bullshit.

Sexual harassment is only the tip of the iceberg, people.

Comment #84: eastvillagechick  on  11/16  at  12:00 AM

Related to this is the woman who pipes up at every opportunity that she would much rather work with men than with other women. I recently had one of them launch into this tirade at a meeting, completely derailing what was supposed to be a productive discussion about woman-to-woman mentoring. It’s pathetic that some women are so hungry for male approval - even at 50, as this woman was - that they will look for opportunities to prove what good sports they are by disparaging their own gender.

Comment #85: demz taters  on  11/17  at  02:33 PM

It’s pathetic that some women are so hungry for male approval ... disparaging their own gender.

Why invalidate her feelings? I would rather work with women than with other men: women at work are more cooperative, less-ego driven, more likely to acknowledge that people have priorities outside of work. I’m not trying to suck up to women by making these assertions—they reflect my experience. Her experience may be that men are more cooperative and less competitive, more likely to acknowledge that she has priorities outside of work, etc. But I agree that repeating these remarks at every opportunity is unproductive.

Comment #86: Hector B.  on  11/18  at  03:06 AM
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