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Next entry: This appears like it’s going to be much worse than even the worst cynic would have predicted Previous entry: What will marriage equality supporters do during the Prop 8 rallies?

Yes, this was published in a major newspaper in the year 2009

Thanks to reader Catherine for waking me up with a reminder that, as we all suspected he would, Douche-hat is going to give into the urge to use his NY Times column to hump his favorite theme, which is that women are a sick, weird subspecies of human that, while looking human, are simply too disgusting with their girl bits and overwhelming desires to be treated like human beings. This one is a real howler, because he posits that he’s a New Man, and that his misogyny is a fancy new kind of sexism that even feminists should love.  No, I’m not joking.

But a new-model stigma shouldn’t (and couldn’t) look like the old sexism.

Nice try, bubs, but we know that you are committed to an extremely old-fashioned sexism, one that goes back millenia and treats women who have any kind of sexuality at all like they’re grotesque.

Douche-bag’s excuse for pretending that he’s going to show the stupid feminists how it’s really done—-and god, some man has to, and it can’t be a man who agrees that women are human beings, because such man is a brainwashed pussy who probably fucks eager women without throwing up in disgust, amiritefellas?—-is this paper that’s behind a pay wall claiming that men’s happiness has gone up since the 70s while women’s has gone down.  Since every other number I’ve ever seen shows that people are happier with relationships since feminism—-and since women have enjoyed declining rates of rape, domestic violence, and depression since then—-I’m skeptical and would like to see this study.  But barring the quite likely possibility that Douthat is being dishonest about its contents, it seems that the major reason women are unhappy is that they have so many kids to take care of, and if you add that to a full-time job, then you’re just plain stressed out.  Particularly so if you’re an American and you don’t get to do things like take vacation or refuse to work unpaid overtime. 

What’s funny is that Douthat accepts and refuses to accept this verdict.  No, I’m not joking.  He actually claims that men and women do the same amount of housework, so it can’t be that.

Again, maybe the happiness numbers are being tipped downward by a mounting female workload — the famous “second shift,” in which women continue to do the lion’s share of household chores even as they’re handed more and more workplace responsibility. It’s certainly possible — but as Wolfers and Stevenson point out, recent surveys actually show similar workload patterns for men and women over all.

Well, someone’s full of shit.  That, or jacking the stats to say what they want it to say. Then again, if a woman works 40 hours a week on housework because she doesn’t have a paid job, but her husband works 40 hours a week at a job he loves where he gets paid, that could go a long way to explaining why they have different satisfaction levels.  But I’m dying from laughter that Douthat is actually trying to sell this notion that American men largely come home from work and join their wives in cleaning and cooking and chasing children around at exactly the same levels.  Not by any statistic I’ve ever seen. 

If you believe that men and women log in the same number of work hours, and there’s a growing gap between them of happiness, then there’s only one explanation, I’m guessing: women are simps.  I’m not even remotely surprised that Douthat thinks that your average housewife enjoyed a life of utter leisure, where the most she worked was by occasionally running a towel over something or straightening a pillow, and that the only price she paid for this life of leisure was subservience, which she enjoys, since women are actually members of the species Canis familaris.  He says as much in his column.

The traditionalist will see evidence of a revolution gone awry, in which women have been pressured into lifestyles that run counter to their biological imperatives, and men have been liberated to embrace a piggish irresponsibility.

Biological imperatives?  He sounds like a dog obedience instructor explaining why you shouldn’t feel guilty about playing the alpha to your dog, because dogs crave authority.  And they do.  Because they’re an entirely different species.  Women aren’t, despite our disgusting lady parts and disgusting contraceptive habits.

Douthat’s solutions to women’s unhappiness problems are a) more flex time and b) make women even more miserable and unhappy.  I’m beginning to suspect his enthusiasm for the former stems from a belief that if women get more flex time, they’ll be taken off promotion tracks, and ideally he’ll be able to work his way into male-only environments that reduce his encounters with women that may or may not be using contraception.  I don’t mean sexual encounters—-said women are clearly so disgusting that they can’t be encountered in hallways.  Ideally, we can use “flex time” as an excuse to start making rules banishing menstruating women to their proper places in huts and out of the office. 

As for b):

They should also be able to agree that the steady advance of single motherhood threatens the interests and happiness of women. Here the public-policy options are limited; some kind of social stigma is a necessity. But a new-model stigma shouldn’t (and couldn’t) look like the old sexism. There’s no necessary reason why feminists and cultural conservatives can’t join forces — in the same way that they made common cause during the pornography wars of the 1980s — behind a social revolution that ostracizes serial baby-daddies and trophy-wife collectors as thoroughly as the “fallen women” of a more patriarchal age.

No reason, of course, save the fact that contemporary America doesn’t seem willing to accept sexual stigma, period.

That’s right!  Feminists should get on board with abusing women for daring to have sexual desire.  That will solve women’s unhappiness problem.  Never mind that there is one surefire way to avoid single motherhood that involve what Douthat considers the worst kind of sexual irresponsibility—-contraception and abortion as back-up.  But I can’t even jump all over this, because seriously, his solution for making women happier is haranguing them, judging them despicable and disgusting human beings, and repressing their sexuality.  I look forward to when he decides that regular beatings improve women’s happiness levels.

One thing that seems true from Douthat’s excretions is that children are a factor in these happiness levels.  This isn’t surprising at all—-it’s been well-demonstrated that inviting children in your home to mess things up, keep you up at night, and stress you out all the time has a negative effect on all people’s happiness levels.  This is true for men and women, single and married.  It’s true that women suffer more than men, and that single women suffer the most at all, but let’s face it.  Douthat is talking band-aid solutions that allow the happiness-eroding fundamentals to stay in place.  Since he’s already advanced the premise that pushing women’s happiness at all costs—-even at the cost of their own happiness—-is necessary, then surely he’s on board with the obvious solution, which is for people to just stop having kids.  This solves the single motherhood problem while also compromising neatly with the feminist desire to spread sexual immorality far and wide.  Remember: You can do it in the living room every night if you want if you don’t have kids. 

Of course, that idea is farcical, and so is Douthat’s belief that the solution to women’s unhappiness is to force them into miserable and often abusive marriages for the sake of sexual propriety.  I’d suggest that Douthat leave the strategy of pretending to give a shit about the womb-bearing floor scrubbers to social conservatives who can hide their contempt for the very existence of women a little bit better.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 10:22 AM • (139) Comments

No, thank you Amanda.  My head felt like it was going to explode this morning while I was reading this.  I emailed the editors of the NY Times, but that’s nothing I haven’t done before, and they pay no attention.  Then I thought of you.  It’s perfect.

Comment #1: Lady Vader  on  05/26  at  10:33 AM

I’m pretty sure that the NYT editors would see a reader e-mail to them and/or a blog post critical of an editorial as a plus for them, not a minus. See also: Fred Hiatt ad infinitum.

Comment #2: norbizness  on  05/26  at  10:41 AM

Frankly, my living room is not the best place to do it (need plusher carpet, I guess). But not having kids would mean not having to shut the bedroom door, so there’s that.

Comment #3: emjaybee  on  05/26  at  10:51 AM

I love the study that he cites.  Are economists the determiners of who is Happy now?

Comment #4: seeker6079  on  05/26  at  10:55 AM

I don’t read Douthat.

That said, the very short synopsis on the NYT editorial page led me to conclude that he’s taken one statistic and attributed it to one factor…  Ignoring a lot of other factors (like how in the 1960’s, wages were adequate so that a family could survive well on a single income if it wanted to, etc…) 

Oh well.  It seems that the paper of record seems to think it must have at least two “Conservative commentators” at any given time…

Comment #5: James  on  05/26  at  10:58 AM

He talks about stigma, or the lack thereof.  He speaks of a prostitute-hiring politician: he carefully links to an article on Spitzer (D), and omits any mention of Vitter (R).  The former lost his career; the latter remains securely in place.  Which of the two has been stigmatized and which let off the hook?

Comment #6: seeker6079  on  05/26  at  10:59 AM

“They should also be able to agree that the steady advance of single motherhood threatens the interests and happiness of women. Here the public-policy options are limited; some kind of social stigma is a necessity.”

Let me see if I have this right:

1) Single motherhood makes woman unhappy and undermines their interests.

2) Because women are too fucking stupid to realize this blindly obvious truth on their own, we need to put up giant fuck-off societal warning signs letting them know that single motherhood will make them unhappy and undermine their interests.

3) Because of the aforementioned whoa-mama levels of gross stupidity possessed by women, these societal warning signs must take the form of making single motherhood way more awful than it is now, so that the woman who would have missed the more subtle lack of happiness and undermining of interests now cannot help but realize that single motherhood will ruin their lives.

4) This will result in a net decrease in unhappiness and life-fucked-sidewaysery in much the same way that human sacrifice once ensured that everyone not thus murdered would be smiled upon by happy, generous deities.

Comment #7: preying mantis  on  05/26  at  10:59 AM

Eh, part of the new trend of valuing economists over sociologists in the field of sociology.  Hopefully, it’ll soon pass, but then I fear what’s next.  Perhaps suggesting that economists are better at interpreting poetry than literary critics?

Comment #8: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  11:00 AM

He also equates being a single mother with being a man who cheats on his wife with prostitutes.

Comment #9: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  11:05 AM

Douthat is seriously incoherent. I really can’t figure out what he’s trying to say. He doesn’t really say that we should heap social disapprobation on “loose” women; at least not in this article. He says that we should stigmatize the “serial babby-daddies” and the “trophy-wife collectors.” So, heaping social disappropation on men is going to make women happier, because then men won’t have sex willy-nilly, so they’ll all get married and women won’t have to work in an office, the poor dears, but instead can stay home and fulfill their divine destinies of cleaning up baby shit?

I think that’s what he’s saying.

Comment #10: m_leblanc  on  05/26  at  11:05 AM

He actually claims that men and women do the same amount of housework

Men tend claim to do more housework than they actually do.  I remember a small study (unfortunately, I can’t find it right now) where about 70% of men interviewed said they did 50% the housework.  When researchers actually measured the amount of work, it turns out ones who said they did 50% were really doing just about 40% of the work.

Comment #11: Susa  on  05/26  at  11:08 AM

Feminists and traditionalists should be able to agree, for instance, that the structures of American society don’t make enough allowances for the particular challenges of motherhood. We can squabble forever about the choices that mothers ought to make, but the difficult work-parenthood juggle is here to stay. (Just ask Sarah and Todd Palin.) And there are all kinds of ways — from a more family-friendly tax code to a more accommodating educational system — that public policy can make that juggle easier. Conservatives and liberals won’t agree on the means, but they ought to agree on the end: a nation where it’s easier to balance work and child-rearing, however you think that balance should be struck.

“...of motherhood”?  That’s Douhat in a nutshell there: parenting is a female occupation. 

“Sarah and Todd Palin” ????  Millionaires got it hard????

“a more family-friendly tax code” ???? This is the one that got me angry.  They aren’t talking about a tax code that is friendly to families.  They’re talking about a tax code that provides disproportionate benefits to married heterosexuals.  Gay?  Out of luck.  Divorced?  Out of luck.  Single parent?  Out of luck.  You’re not a real family so why should we be friendly to you?

Regarding the last-mentioned, I had this exact debate with a friend of mine: married, three kids.  Nice guy.  He was relieved that income-splitting for married couples (which had then just been brought in by Canada’s Conservative government) was a long-overdue break for families.  I bristled.  “Families?”  My ex and I and our daughter are a family, if a broken one.  We support two households, not one.  But you, with all the advantages of shared expenses, and with the myriad of other tax breaks and benefits plans that marriage brings to you, you’re the one getting another tax advantage.  What makes your family worthy of special treatment and mine less so?”  Smart as he is he hadn’t thought of that.

“Conservatives and liberals won’t agree on the means ...”  he notes, without admitting that means craft ends.  He will want conservative means to address the problem, and this will produce conservative ends.  He could at least man up and admit that.

Comment #12: seeker6079  on  05/26  at  11:09 AM

Perhaps suggesting that economists are better at interpreting poetry than literary critics?

Ummmm, given that I think that most literary critics should be given Big Pussy’s boat ride, Amanda, this argument isn’t exactly a game-winner with me!

Comment #13: seeker6079  on  05/26  at  11:10 AM

But I’m dying from laughter that Douthat is actually trying to sell this notion that American men largely come home from work and join their wives in cleaning and cooking and chasing children around at exactly the same levels.  Not by any statistic I’ve ever seen.

I can’t read the paper until I get to work, but I’m not sure that’s the notion he’s trying to sell—rather, I think he’s selling “Sure, women do most of the housework, but look at how hard the _real_ breadwinners have to work to put food on the table!  Surely you see that sitting at a desk all day is much harder than picking up around the house; otherwise, why would men’s work pay so well?”  Equally repulsive, but symptomatic more of a delusional worldview than of intentional dishonesty.

BTW, this business of “suggesting that economists are better at interpreting poetry than literary critics” puts me in mind of nothing so much as the English teacher who’s not Robin Williams in Dead Poets Society, with the axes of beauty and importance, and measuring greatness by the area under the curve.  That is laughable, but it’s not quite the same thing.  I think economists do have a role to play in a lot of fields, but not by virtue of being economists.  Rather, their training in statistics and modeling can frequently yield interesting insights.  I’d say, though, that this is mostly a symptom of “economics” having become so broadly defined as to include virtually anything that takes a little math.  Just my 2 cents.

Comment #14: Mr. Zarch  on  05/26  at  11:11 AM

The problem isn’t that men and women have similar workloads at work, the problem is that men and women have similar workloads at work but women have a greater workload at home by far!

This was covered in an article that I was interviewed for in Boston Magazine a year or so ago.

The chorus of “so what if she works a solid shift at home from the time she gets home .. I MOW THE LAWN every two weeks!  I do YARD WORK!” was a deafining roar of stupid.

Seriously - some guys think that yard work on the weekends is the same amount of work as doing all the cooking and laundry and childcare.  Never mind that their wife is out shuttling the kids around or shopping on the weekends while they do that yard work they think they deserve a medal for!

Comment #15: Ms Kate  on  05/26  at  11:12 AM

I tried the .pdf link of the paper you mention, and it worked - http://www.nber.org/papers/w14969.pdf
No paywall that I could see, it gave me the whole paper.  Don’t know what particular part of the paper Douthat misread to reach his conclusions, but it is available.

Comment #16: Libraryguy  on  05/26  at  11:13 AM

So, heaping social disappropation on men is going to make women happier, because then men won’t have sex willy-nilly, so they’ll all get married and women won’t have to work in an office, the poor dears, but instead can stay home and fulfill their divine destinies of cleaning up baby shit?

I think it’s more that he’ll agree to wag his finger at men who sleep around if feminists agree to make women who have children while not being married (either through divorce or giving birth while single) incredibly miserable.  The premise is that feminists hate men, and so this is a tempting proposition.

Comment #17: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  11:13 AM

The housework debate is a contentious one, as anybody who has spent even a modicum of time here would know.

Comment #18: seeker6079  on  05/26  at  11:14 AM

But of course, men’s sins have to be exponentially worse than women’s to get that social shame.  If you’re pregnant, that’s it for you lady.  But apparently men have to be on their fourth marriage to someone younger than their children while choking prostitutes before they get considered as bad as pregnant women who go out in public and/or don’t shake a ring in your face.

Comment #19: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  11:14 AM

seeker, it’s more Pseudocontentious - the research shows, time and again, that men are doing more than they used to but women still do a disproportionate amount, particularly when the hours at paid work are considered.

Comment #20: Ms Kate  on  05/26  at  11:16 AM

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepnnz3/articles/Scanned Articles JPEGS/BG Mag/breadwinner wives 3-11-07.pdf

Comment #21: Ms Kate  on  05/26  at  11:17 AM

The contention is whether or not it has to be done.  But the stats I’ve seen show that straight, partnered feminists do in fact reduce their housework load substantially—-they have messier houses, though, and they still do most of the housework, and their partners do not pick up more because they’re feminists.

Comment #22: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  11:18 AM

Which is to say that the solution offered by men—-do less—-is in effect, and still women do more.

Comment #23: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  11:18 AM

“I’m pretty sure that the NYT editors would see a reader e-mail to them and/or a blog post critical of an editorial as a plus for them, not a minus. See also: Fred Hiatt ad infinitum.”

Maybe.  But for one year straight I emailed them every time that moron John Tierney published an op-ed, after he was promoted to opinion writer.  I always congratulated them on their successful strategy of attempting to make David Brooks appear smarter by putting Tierney on the same page.  I would entitle the emails “NY Times’ Stealth David Brooks Isn’t the Biggest Moron We’ve Got Campaign.”

Sure, I probably had nothing to do with Tierney’s being kicked off the op-ed page after his one-year contract ran out.  But, I like to think I did anyway.

Comment #24: Lady Vader  on  05/26  at  11:19 AM

“Conservatives and liberals won’t agree on the means ...” he notes, without admitting that means craft ends.

It’s worse than that. There is no such thing as ‘ends’. Society is a perpetually changing thing, and nothing ever ends. There are only means.

Comment #25: BlackBloc  on  05/26  at  11:19 AM

“...the premise that pushing women’s happiness at all costs—-even at the cost of their own happiness—-is necessary”

Yeah, the whole “happiness” thing is just a weak attempt to mask his fixation (and disgust?) with women having sex. 

Happiness has to be about the most ephemeral, ill-defined, and subjective metric you could possibly use to infer anything about societal trends, especially over the long term.  He notes the fact that women are better off according to every objective measure of well-being you can think of, only to discard those concrete advances and declare that women are not as “happy” as they used to be under their “traditional” roles.  His solution to this lack of happiness, of course, is to punish sex.

Comment #26: charles w  on  05/26  at  11:22 AM

BlackBloc, that goes for housework, too.  There are no ends, only means.

Comment #27: Ms Kate  on  05/26  at  11:24 AM

Let’s try that link again ...

Comment #28: Ms Kate  on  05/26  at  11:26 AM

There is something going on, worth discussing, with women and their happiness.  The number of women with anxiety and depression issues, and who are medicated for these kinds of problems, is something I’m surprised doesn’t get more attention.  My college girlfriend was on medication.  My wife takes them sometimes.  I was talking to a buddy the other day about his wife, and her recent struggles with anxiety and depression.  The women I supervise will say things, from time to time, about the drugs they’re on.  It’s more surprising to me when women aren’t on medication than when they are.

I don’t have a lot of thoughts on what the causes are.  Douthat is obviously a clown.  It’s not the steady advance of single motherhood, and sexual stigmas aren’t the answer.  But with as common as it is, I don’t like that we write it off as individual issues with brain chemistry, such that having people take a pill to not worry about stuff is the answer.

Comment #29: Wallace  on  05/26  at  11:28 AM

But of course, men’s sins have to be exponentially worse than women’s to get that social shame.  If you’re pregnant, that’s it for you lady.  But apparently men have to be on their fourth marriage to someone younger than their children while choking prostitutes before they get considered as bad as pregnant women who go out in public and/or don’t shake a ring in your face.

Yes, a pregnant body is even more effective than a scarlet A.  This is exactly why anti-choice people push the adoption angle so much.  Women would get a second chance to be a good girl (because what man wants to marry a woman who already has a kid that’s not his, amirite?), but she still gets at least 5 months of constant shame, which will hopefully be enough to make her into a better eventual wife.

Comment #30: bananacat  on  05/26  at  11:30 AM

“There is something going on, worth discussing, with women and their happiness.”

Yeah, it’s almost like being part of an oppressed group takes a psychological toll.

Comment #31: preying mantis  on  05/26  at  11:33 AM

Maybe, Wallace, we should consider WHY people are miserable, look for the root causes and address them. Such as, oh, enduring double standards and grotesque overburdens at work for both sexes.

Comment #32: felagund  on  05/26  at  11:36 AM

It should be extremely obvious that, on average, women have more responsibility for household chores and childcare, even from the very beginning.  Very few companies offer parental leave for fathers, but almost all of them have to offer leave for mothers.  I understand that mothers might need more leave than fathers, due to the physical aspect of recovering from birth, but that only supports the idea that fathers should be home, so the mother can heal while the father takes care of the child.  One of my brothers had to save up vacation time and still only had a week with his new daughter.  I think industry is sending a very clear message that childcare is for women only.  I think a lot of men over-estimate their contribution because they just don’t realize how much work their partner is doing.

Comment #33: bananacat  on  05/26  at  11:39 AM

Wallace, I personally blame the steady advance of social isolation, especially around women with children and advancing well into adolescence for those children. The second shift surely has something to do with it - if you never have any free time, when are you supposed to have friends? - and I think the blame-the-victim fear-based way our culture handles violence of all kinds, and especially sexual or gendered violence, has a lot to do with it. Women with children aren’t just supposed to protect themselves from rapists - it’s also their duty to be on guard at all times against serial killers and child molesters on behalf of their children, and that’s so exhausting that it’s easier to just keep everyone in the house all the time. Just a note, though: I think our culture doesn’t do a good job for either gender as far as respecting parents’ rights to have strong friendships with other adults.

Comment #34: purpleshoes  on  05/26  at  11:42 AM

I’m shocked that Douthat, who seems to have no experience doing anything whatsoever, would write incoherently about social issues.

People like Douthat need to go to grad school, spend some time doing real research and defending their work to people who don’t care who he is, work for a while trying to do something interesting with himself professionally, and then maybe he should get an op-ed column in the New York Times. I’d even recommend journalism as a possibility, as long as it was for a small-town paper covering city council meetings and the crime beat.

But apparently being a glib Harvard student who parlayed a column in an undergraduate publication into a staff position writing the same kind of essays for the Atlantic is good enough for the New York Times.

Comment #35: Tyro  on  05/26  at  11:44 AM

The contention is whether or not it has to be done.  But the stats I’ve seen show that straight, partnered feminists do in fact reduce their housework load substantially—-they have messier houses, though, and they still do most of the housework, and their partners do not pick up more because they’re feminists.

That’s about how it is in my house.  The husband does do a fair amount of housework, especially compared to my dad, my uncles, his uncles, etc.  But I still do the lion’s share of it, especially the repetitive stuff that never seems to get done (like laundry, dishes, cooking, shopping, etc.).  However, our house is messier than he would like because he won’t do more—he complains about the house being a mess or things not getting done, but my solution (if it bothers you so much, get up off your ass and vacuum the floor/dust the shelves/whatever it is that he’s complaining about) doesn’t fly.

It works the same way with the kids.  He’s great with them and contributes way more than men of the previous generation, but I still do most of the organizational work, clothing, and feeding that they require.  I keep telling him that they are his kids too and everything isn’t automatically my responsibility just because I’m the mother, but the culture (both his native culture and American culture) is so very much against me on that one that it doesn’t really stick for more than a little while at a time.

Comment #36: ks  on  05/26  at  11:46 AM

There is something going on, worth discussing, with women and their happiness.  The number of women with anxiety and depression issues, and who are medicated for these kinds of problems, is something I’m surprised doesn’t get more attention.  My college girlfriend was on medication.  My wife takes them sometimes.  I was talking to a buddy the other day about his wife, and her recent struggles with anxiety and depression.  The women I supervise will say things, from time to time, about the drugs they’re on.  It’s more surprising to me when women aren’t on medication than when they are.

Although depression is more common among women, it’s certainly not rare among men.  A big part if it is the physical aspect of brain chemistry, just like any other mental illness.  However, the point that many other people have made is that women are depressed because of the double burden they face.  If their husbands would do an equal amount of housework, fewer women would be depressed.  Heck, in some cases it would be enough if the husband would just thank his wife for doing all the work.  That was the case with my mom.  She was much happier after she divorced my father, even though she now has to do all of the yard work herself.  She does less work now than she did before, and she doesn’t even mind cleaning.  When you have a husband who expects you to do so much work on top of a full-time job, without any hint of appreciation, it’s not hard to see how that can lead to depression in susceptible people.  For my mom, getting rid of that burden was more effective than any medication.  I completely support medication for people who need it, but there is more we can do as a society on top of the medication.

Comment #37: bananacat  on  05/26  at  11:49 AM

First of all Wallace, I don’t accept that it’s only women, and you couldn’t even begin to have this conversation without first becoming familar with studies of the rise of pharmacutical advertising.

Everyone’s being diagnosed with something, on a daily basis, by Madison Avenue.

Comment #38: Lady Vader  on  05/26  at  11:51 AM

Maybe, Wallace, we should consider WHY people are miserable, look for the root causes and address them. Such as, oh, enduring double standards and grotesque overburdens at work for both sexes.

Well, that’s what I’m saying.  I’ve maybe, in my life, known personally of one or two cases of autism, or epilepsy.  I know, right now, of at least ten women who are medicated for anxiety and/or depression.  If autism, or epilepsy, or anything else was happening with this frequency, it would be treated as an epidemic and there’d be a much more serious effort at examining the causes.  With anxiety and depression, instead of asking “what the hell is going on making so many people unhappy with life”, we treat it like it’s a dysfunction of the person suffering from it.

And I think purpleshoes is onto what I’m talking about.  I’m just surprised – again, given how common anxiety and depression issues seem to be – that we don’t treat it as more pressing that we consider the issue and do something about it.

And I think it is a good example of gender-based double standards.  If it were affecting children or adult men nearly as much, it would for sure be getting the full blown “what are going to do to fix this” treatment.

Comment #39: Wallace  on  05/26  at  11:53 AM

However, our house is messier than he would like because he won’t do more—he complains about the house being a mess or things not getting done, but my solution (if it bothers you so much, get up off your ass and vacuum the floor/dust the shelves/whatever it is that he’s complaining about) doesn’t fly.

Yep. 

But there is hope for the next generation ... my 11 year old son decided that a dirty toilet and sink disgust him, so he asked me how to clean it and I showed him.  (this also upped incentives to be a bit more careful with aim ...)  Now the boy’s bathroom has a clean toilet and sink, and I thank him when I notice it and he tells me when he needs a refill on the stuff he uses to clean it.

Comment #40: Ms Kate  on  05/26  at  11:59 AM

Wallace, my point is that we have already answered why depression is so so common among women.  Instead of just asking why, let’s actually do something about it.

Comment #41: bananacat  on  05/26  at  12:02 PM

I think it’s more that he’ll agree to wag his finger at men who sleep around if feminists agree to make women who have children while not being married (either through divorce or giving birth while single) incredibly miserable.

If there’s any possible way to make sense of his muddle, you get the closest.

I’ll refine the part about the “men who sleep around” to note that he means “men who ‘sleep around’ without the intent to have babies in wedlock.” His “serial baby-daddies” (i.e. men who sleep around and have babies out of wedlock) and “trophy-wife collectors” (i.e. men who marry multiple times, but are more concerned with sleeping with a series of hot young wives than having babies) are the easy targets, but I have no doubt he’d also include any man who gets married without the intent of reproducing, and any man (unmarried or married) who has sex outside of marriage.

In other words, the same old killjoy Puritanism/Catholicism shoe-horned into a seeming “compromise” with radical second-wave feminism (which is the only kind of feminism his limited, sheltered mind can conceive of). Nice try, Do-That.

Comment #42: Gracchus.  on  05/26  at  12:08 PM

Wallace, also note that the high levels of anxiety and depression, and medication use for them among women is not new.  Every heard of “mother’s little helper?”  They weren’t talking about having the kids help with the housework.  Not to mention self medication with alcohol, etc. 


And word on the dirtier house but still I’m doing most of the cleaning.

Comment #43: rowmyboat  on  05/26  at  12:25 PM

Re. dirty houses and more housework for straight, partnered feminists: sounds like I might make a mint if I could only figure out a way to clone my husband.* Pre-order yours now!

*Results cannot be guaranteed for couples with children.

Comment #44: Ranylt  on  05/26  at  12:31 PM

catgirl, I don’t feel like I am / we are anywhere near understanding what to do about the patriarchy - “lobby for greater workplace equality” will take a long time to trickle down, “try to do your actual fair share if you’re a man” will take a long time to trickle up, and I’m not sure either is broad enough in scope to actually address the problem. I’m not saying that these are worthless goals (I think these are very worthwhile goals) but we live in a culture in the US that can be really isolating and misery-making when you get on the wrong end of it, and if you have ideas for how to fix it, I say sincerely, I would like to hear them.

Comment #45: purpleshoes  on  05/26  at  12:49 PM

Something about the idea that single motherhood leads to unhappiness strains credulity to me. Most women - and men - are happier single than they are in a bad relationship, right? And most people who get divorced/split from the other parent were in bad relationships that probably made them unhappy, right? So what am I missing here?

Comment #46: Jeff  on  05/26  at  01:05 PM

And whatever the cause of the unhappiness, wouldn’t stigma be absolutely the worst remedy you could apply, since being stigmatized makes people unhappy?

Comment #47: Jeff  on  05/26  at  01:08 PM

Depression - real medical depression, not just occasionally feeling unhappy - is a function of brain chemistry, not circumstances. Certainly circumstances can affect it, and prolonged stress can actually create changes in brain chemistry. But ultimately, it’s the chemistry.

One studied showed that men produce serotonin at a 52 percent higher rate than women. That could well be one of the reasons for the greater incidence of depression among women.

But, of course, depression does affect men, too, but you just may not hear about it. Men may be less comfortable talking about medication because there’s more stigma for men.

Comment #48: Phoebe Fay  on  05/26  at  01:18 PM

Try one of these links for the NBER paper:

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/1016/w14969.pdf

http://rapidshare.com/files/237475882/w14969.pdf.html

Comment #49: asdf  on  05/26  at  01:20 PM

And this workaround should reach Ms Kate’s link:

http://mysite.verizon.net/vzepnnz3/articles/Scanned Articles JPEGS/BG Mag/breadwinner wives 3-11-07.pdf

Comment #50: asdf  on  05/26  at  01:23 PM

I briefly looked at the paper.  The graph Douhat seems fixated on (Fig 2 if you can get the paper) shows declines in both men’s and women’s lifes satisfaction from 1970 to 2002-ish with the lines crossing (women reporting less life satisfaction then men) at around 1992.  This graph is based on a survey by Virginia Slims, not the general social survey.  The number of men and women endorsing very happy or not too happy on the general social survey (Figure 1) doesn’t appear all that different between men and women.  I haven’t actually read the paper though. 

P.S.  The the male female lines are practically inseparable for “life satisfaction in the EU”.  Hmm, wonder why that could be?

Comment #51: carovee  on  05/26  at  01:23 PM

Pheobe Fay,
Depression, like all mental illness, is certainly a physical condition within the brain.  But external factors can certainly influence it, just like many other diseases.  Stress and abuse can make depression worse, or trigger it in people who are susceptible.  Most people who have depression do not have symptoms constantly, and many patients can be symptom-free for years without medication.  Physical and social factors are not mutually exclusive.  Even though it’s brain chemistry, that doesn’t mean we can ignore the social factors.  Circumstances actually matter.  There are things we can do to reduce depression instead of giving up and acting like it’s pointless because it’s all just chemistry.

Comment #52: bananacat  on  05/26  at  01:26 PM

last try

tiny url dot com slash plxcax

Comment #53: asdf  on  05/26  at  01:28 PM

So are you saying that “traditionalists” don’t actually think what he hypothesizes they think?  I mean, you take issue with him saying that by attacking him personally, which is your shtick, I know; but I think his breakdown of what “traditionalists” think seems pretty consistent with similar takes on the subject that I’ve seen here for years.

Comment #54: stormhit  on  05/26  at  01:34 PM

Stormhit, I think the critique is that he positions himself as a compromise or third way between traditionalists and feminists, when in fact he merely reiterates the traditionalist position.

Comment #55: The Erl  on  05/26  at  01:36 PM

Also a draft of the NBER paper is available through http://11d.typepad.com/blog/2009/05/the-mystery-of-declining-female-happiness.html

I did not check for any differences between the two.

Comment #56: asdf  on  05/26  at  01:41 PM

Jeff, possibly the fact that never getting a full night’s sleep will make you crazy? I think one thing we’re circling around is the central role of downtime to mental health.

Pheobe Fay, I’m not a neuroscientist and my understanding of neuroscience is poor, so if you are coming at this from a professional background please do enlighten me, but the fact that women produce less serotonin seems like a description of a mechanism by which depression occurs, not, strictly speaking, an identification of the cause of depression. I mean, you also see decreased levels of serotonin in trauma victims; that’s the physiological mechanism by which trauma victims become depressed, but it’s not the cause.

Personally, if it is a difference in physiology I’m worried that the problem might actually be that the female brain evolved in a constantly-pregnant body (hastily googled source for brain concentrations of serotonin during pregnancy). As a feminist who doesn’t want to have ten kids and die at age forty, I’ve had to accept that nature doesn’t always have our backs on these things. Can you imagine the sheer depth of evopsych pronatalist bullshit that could result from a decent study showing that that was the problem? Never mind that our entire contemporary lives are built on mediating nature with technology; somehow people develop a huge blind spot when it comes to mediating reproduction (or lack thereof) and its consequences.

Comment #57: purpleshoes  on  05/26  at  01:46 PM

I love Douchehat’s explanation for why women are (supposedly) less happy.  If women are less happy, could it be because we have justifiably increased expectations for men which by and large they still won’t meet?

Comment #58: keshmeshi  on  05/26  at  02:01 PM

Personally, if it is a difference in physiology I’m worried that the problem might actually be that the female brain evolved in a constantly-pregnant body (hastily googled source for brain concentrations of serotonin during pregnancy). As a feminist who doesn’t want to have ten kids and die at age forty, I’ve had to accept that nature doesn’t always have our backs on these things.

If that were the case wouldn’t we see more depression in children, who aren’t pregnant? Or more depression in teens than in adults? But actually, despite the stereotype of the depressed teen, adults suffer from depression far more often than teens.

Also, enough people suffer from pre-partum depression (and generally can’t get meds for it because no one knows what the effect on the baby would be) that it would seem to be a mechanism with an unfortunate frequency of misfiring, if so.

I think the obvious is being missed. if 1 out of every 4 women has been raped, while only 1 out of 10 men has suffered a similar assault, one would expect the rates of PTSD as the result of rape or similar trauma to be twice as high with women as with men, so we would see twice as much depression and anxiety in women as men.  Hmm….

And if that seems too pat, consider this also: when I was in college studying abnormal psychology, we were taught that twice as many women as men are depressed, and twice as many men as women are alcoholics. Given that society tells men they must hide any feelings that can be defined as “weak” (sadness, weariness, feelings of worthlessness among them), and society tells men it’s fine to drink if you’re unhappy, whereas women are told that nice girls don’t drink and women who drink will probably get raped and it will be their own fault, but it’s okay to admit to being weak and sad… who wants to bet that a significant number of those male alcoholics are self-medicating depressives, and a significant number of those depressed women would be alcoholics if it were more socially acceptable for women to drink?

I think there are so many social reasons for women to be depressed (from status as not-quite-first-class-citizens, to all the extra unappreciated work, to the high likelihood of being raped, to the constant messages from advertising that you’re just not good enough) and so many social reasons for men to *hide* being depressed that we cannot accurately gauge *any* possible biological difference between the sexes in this matter. There may be a biological difference, but good luck finding it with all the noise from the culture in the data.

Comment #59: Alara J Rogers  on  05/26  at  02:05 PM

Is it just me, or does Douthat view women the way the Ferengi do?

Comment #60: Andy, Oligarch of Okonomiyaki  on  05/26  at  02:09 PM

Alara, fair enough. I really do think that the primary factors are social; disproportionate depression and anxiety aren’t that mysterious if one gender’s typical lifestyle is disproportionately misery-making and they have disproportionate reasons to be fearful.

Comment #61: purpleshoes  on  05/26  at  02:28 PM

Seeing that the inspiration came from a perjorative term:

Etymology

“Ferengi” and similar terms are Arabic names for European traders, or for Westerners in general. Both the Arabic word and the name are similarly pronounced [fɛˈrɪŋɡi]. The name is likely derived from the Arabic word faranj or ifranj, “Franks”, or possibly the Persian word farangi, meaning “foreigner”. In Ethiopia, ferenj or ferenji has the same meaning. The source of the name is likely from the Byzantine Greeks who were the Westerner’s neighbours, this usage spread to the Near East, Asia, Africa and even China.[3] Greeks still sometimes use fra[n]gkoi (φράγκοι) as an exonym for Western Europeans. The term was used as a partially derogatory term in India to denote the British; however, the word is often used in an affectionate way. The Star Trek usage is derived from the above.[4][unreliable source?]

Comment #62: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/26  at  02:36 PM

Also- some of the commenters on ol Ross-boy’s screed are hilarious. (In that - WTF are you STILL tripping? way)
I speak of the one from the hippy guy living in France pontificating on “how hard it is for women to be alone vs. hiself who is perfectly content in his old age” for a few reasons. One, of course, having the gall to not have kids (silly bitches!) two, for just being women and being weird and not cool like him.

*sigh*

Why oh why can’t women just BE HAPPY?!?!?
*goes back to headdesking*

Comment #63: Danica Lefse Queen  on  05/26  at  02:53 PM

Amanda, incidentally, I’m reading that leisure time study that everyone’s on about right now, and one of the things that I’ve found the most interesting is the table on p. 36 that shows how differently people state their enjoyment of leisure or home-work activities at the time and after the fact. Turns out that there’s a huge discrepancy between how happy people report caring for children makes them in theory and how happy they report doing while they’re actually doing it. My two suspicions about childcare (that it can suck at the time but people find it long-term rewarding, and that a lot of people are pressured into reporting that it fills them with sunshine and rainbows when they actually find it a hard slog) would both explain that one nicely.

Comment #64: purpleshoes  on  05/26  at  03:01 PM

how happy they report being, augh.

Comment #65: purpleshoes  on  05/26  at  03:09 PM

I just skimmed the comments (which, fwiw, have been closed already!) on Douchehat’s oped… a lot of rubbish sexism, but many many more questioning his misogyny and assumptions. there is hope for the human race yet.

Comment #66: SapphireCate  on  05/26  at  03:10 PM

I’m no neuroscientist either, just someone who has suffered from depression and has done a lot of reading on the topic. The differences in rates of production of serotonin is just one factor involving one neurotransmittor. It’s probably a big factor, but certainly there are many more factors, and it’s an incredibly complex interaction involving a lot of systems in the body.

Stress can certainly play a part in depression. Over time, stress hormones impact brain chemistry and do damage to other systems. There’s really no question about that. But merely alleviating the stress does not necessarily cure depression.

It is possible to do everything right - exercise, eat right, reduce stress, practice positive self-talk and refute negative thoughts - and still need drugs to beat depression. The brain chemistry has trumped every effort I’ve made to fight depression without drugs. Even with all sorts of advantages like intelligence, access to information, economic security, good general health, and a healthy relationship, I can’t beat this without drugs. 

It’s a disease. Cultural factors like prolonged stress may play a role in its development just like it can play a role in heart disease, but even with no stress, some people will still have heart attacks and some will still get depressed.

Comment #67: Phoebe Fay  on  05/26  at  03:17 PM

Also, enough people suffer from pre-partum depression (and generally can’t get meds for it because no one knows what the effect on the baby would be) that it would seem to be a mechanism with an unfortunate frequency of misfiring, if so.

That’d be me.  Never having any more babies, and a good part of that is b/c being pregnant is not good for my brain chemistry.  Tried weaning off of Zoloft the first time…that was a very bad thing to do.  OB prescribed Zoloft for me for the subsequent pregnancies.

who wants to bet that a significant number of those male alcoholics are self-medicating depressives, and a significant number of those depressed women would be alcoholics if it were more socially acceptable for women to drink?

I’ll anecdata you for that:  at Stanford, a highly stressful environment, nearly all the female students I knew had a “breakdown” of some sort during their 4 year tenure, while nearly every male student became a heavy, heavy drinker.

Yeah, it’s anecdata, but you have bright kids in a stressful environment and the men drink more and the women cry more.

Comment #68: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  05/26  at  03:18 PM

I think this depression thread is pinned on one assumption that’s demonstrably untrue, which is the idea that more women are depressed or even getting treated for depression than prior to second wave feminism.  In reality, through the roof levels of depression for women was one of the reasons for second wave feminism. That’s the premise of “The Feminine Mystique”.  They didn’t have Prozac then, so maybe it seems depression is more prevalent because we have specific drugs.  But they did have Valium, which was prescribed so much for women that the Rolling Stones wrote a viciously misogynist song mocking women for it.

Valium was the top-selling drug in the 1970s.  Now the top-selling drugs are cholesterol reducing medications.  The first anti-depressant on the list is at #13. 

What’s ironic is that the conservative prescription for women’s happiness is exactly the opposite of what works in reality.  Married women have a greater rate of depression than unmarried women.  Children have a dramatic and negative effect on overall happiness. There is no evidence that abortion has an influence on women’s mental health, but post-partum depression is a widespread problem. 

Women have much higher diagnosed depression rates than men.  But we can’t assume that means that depression is going up for women.  There’s no way to know for sure, but a whole lot of evidence suggests that it’s always been high for women, and that, if anything, it’s going down and not up.  Particularly since many triggers—-domestic violence, rape—-are going down.

Comment #69: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  03:26 PM

Also: see TigerBeatdown’s Sady’s piece about this study for CiF.

It’s a good breakdown of the backlashy nastiness of it.

Comment #70: SapphireCate  on  05/26  at  03:26 PM

Phoebe Fay, I personally can’t buy that what’s commonly referred to as ‘depression’ is necessarily a disease and not a perfectly logical response to a situation.

I was demonstrably depressed from age 9-23. I was also in an abusive household, constantly ridiculed or ignored, later forced to run away from home where I dealt with poverty, rape, abusive relationships, significant stress, and throughout all of this poor nutrition and very erratic sleep. My life was a recipe for horrible depression, and shockingly, I was depressed.

And, a pill wouldn’t have made all of this shit go away. Maybe it would have drugged me into complacency, but it certainly would not have fixed my problems.

Now that I’ve gotten all the problems in my life fixed (happened around 23/24) I’m not depressed at all anymore. I’ve also managed to isolate the physiological causes (hunger/malnourishment, lack of sleep) from the situational ones (shitty home life), and can tell that at least for me how I care for my physical body really effects my mood. But again, the fact that I need to eat regularly and get enough sleep doesn’t mean I have a disease.

I have certainly known people who have a mental illness called depression, but not all depression is a mental illness.

Comment #71: Ashley  on  05/26  at  03:34 PM

Just because something is a disease doesn’t mean it’s not caused by environmental factors.  Hormones rush in and out of the brain precisely so can react to environmental cues.  I don’t know why people have to think something’s set in stone and not influenced by the outside in order to “count”.  You get the flu from environmental exposure to it, and no one’s denying that’s a real disease.

Comment #72: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  03:38 PM

I think pathologizing normal human emotions, even if they’re negative, is fundamentally wrong. To say one has a disease is to say that something is WRONG with them, and being sad about a shitty life is perfectly reasonable and not at all an illness.

Do you think that someone grieving their dead loved one is by definition sick? That they have a physical problem that needs to be fixed?

My depression was a perfectly reasonable reaction to a shitty situation, and not because there’s something pathologically wrong with my brain.

Comment #73: Ashley  on  05/26  at  03:47 PM

Ashley, most of the symptoms of most viral infections are caused by the immune system’s response rather than the virus itself. Doesn’t mean you don’t have a cold.

Comment #74: Auguste  on  05/26  at  03:49 PM

Do you think that someone grieving their dead loved one is by definition sick? That they have a physical problem that needs to be fixed?

No, which is why the medical community differentiates between chronic and transitory depression. You’re fighting a straw man, here.

Comment #75: Auguste  on  05/26  at  03:51 PM

Depression is not a disease, it’s a state. CHRONIC depression is a disease. It’s not that hard to learn the difference, and it can keep you from spouting bootstrap-pulling bullshit on comment threads. That’d be a positive development, too.

I’m pleased you found something that worked for you. I’m displeased that you consider it made you qualified to dismiss things that work for others.

Comment #76: Auguste  on  05/26  at  03:57 PM

As a parent, I feel like stress and satisfaction can co-exist.  I have much more stress in my life as a parent than I did before:  finances are tighter, my time is no longer my own, I’m tireder and yeah, my kid can be annoying at times.  But she also brings me an incredible amount of joy and satisfaction.  I love hearing her laugh, seeing her learn, and having fun with her.

Comment #77: Monala  on  05/26  at  04:00 PM

Auguste, where did I dismiss things that work for others, or the idea that depression can be a mental illness? As I said in my first comment: “I have certainly known people who have a mental illness called depression, but not all depression is a mental illness.” To spell it out that means that I firmly believe that there is indeed a mental illness called depression that needs treatment with medication in order for someone to have a decent life. However, we use the exact same word to describe a perfectly normal emotional reaction to a bad situation.

I’m arguing against the idea that depression=mental illness=physiological problem. And while yes there is something of a distinction made in psychology, there’s not one in the vernacular. This fact, that we as a society commonly react to all depression as the mental illness chronic depression has personally hurt me.

When I was 9 I was having a hard time with my parents’ divorce, my mother’s growing mental illness (narcissistic personality disorder, for the record), and having a new baby in the house. I cried, a lot, for seemingly no reason. My dad saw this and instead of talking to me about my problems, or even asking me why I was crying, he tried to get me on prozac; mom refused. Of course my mom thought my life was just peachy keen and that I was a whiny crybaby desperate for attention and punished me for it, which of course made it worse.

This is just part of the reason why I take umbrage with the idea that all depression, no matter what, is a mental illness requiring medication. It’s not. What we need is better verbage to differentiate between the normal emotional reaction to a shitty life and the mental illness. Not sure if that’s going to happen though.

Comment #78: Ashley  on  05/26  at  04:08 PM

Amanda:

They didn’t have Prozac then, so maybe it seems depression is more prevalent because we have specific drugs.

This, and more. Like pretty much every other medical condition that is allegedly “on the rise” these days, the apparently increased prevalence of chronic depression is most likely a statistical artifact brought about by improved diagnostic methods and the ever-growing number of new potential treatments, not of an actual increase in incidence. In the case of depression, it’s also because the social stigma placed on mental illness (and visible physical illness, too) in the past is slowly slipping away. Likewise, the difference in rates of depression diagnosis between men and women probably don’t reflect an actual difference in incidence, either, just a difference in who is more likely to be able to admit to themselves that they might be depressed.

And futhermore, it cannot possibly be stressed enough that clinical depression is not an emotion. It’s a brain-chemistry imbalance. That the words “sad” and “depressed” are interchangeable in common parlance is an example of why equivocation is a logical fallacy. Weeping uncontrollably because your cat died doesn’t mean that you’re clinically depressed. That’s a natural and appropriate response to a specific external stimulus. If you’re weeping uncontrollably because your pasta water isn’t boiling fast enough, that’s probably a different story.

Comment #79: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  05/26  at  04:08 PM

This suggestion that women freak out while men drink: is it any relation to the old “Men curse to keep from crying.  Women cry to keep from cursing”?

Comment #80: Dr. Psycho  on  05/26  at  04:08 PM

One of the most common causes for Zoloft prescriptions is grief, however—-losing a loved one or becoming disabled are both causes of depression that’s likely to be temporary, but can be disabling at that point in time.  Doesn’t mean they’re not really depressed, and the fact that but for an environmental factor, they’d be find doesn’t mean they’re not suffering from the disease of depression. 

People’s problem is that we want strict dichotomies. Disease or not disease.  Medication-worthy or weakness.  Doesn’t work that way.  To say that depression is diverse and often situation-specific is not, contrary to what some people obviously fear, to say that it isn’t real.  Nothing is more real than the pit of grief that you get when you lose a spouse, for instance.

Comment #81: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  04:10 PM

Depression is not a disease, it’s a state. CHRONIC depression is a disease.

Agreed that the difference is important, but I’d say that people who are suffering temporary, situational depression often benefit significantly from temporary medical treatment.  Both fit into the disease model—-one’s like having a cold, and one’s like having asthma.

Comment #82: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  04:11 PM

I think pathologizing normal human emotions, even if they’re negative, is fundamentally wrong. To say one has a disease is to say that something is WRONG with them, and being sad about a shitty life is perfectly reasonable and not at all an illness.

Clinical depression is not a normal human emotion.  It is a disease.  Personally, I’d like to see a different name for it, because it’s so easy for people to jump to the conclusion that someone is just plain sad.  When someone is considering taking their own life, something is wrong with them.  Clinical depression can be as fatal as any other disease.  There’s a big difference between grieving over sad events and having a legitimate disease that can be fatal.  Many people have been helped by all kinds of treatments, including drugs, and we shouldn’t trivialize that.  BTW, telling someone who has clinical depression that they are just plain sad and need to cheer up and get over it does not work and only makes them feel worse.

Comment #83: bananacat  on  05/26  at  04:14 PM

I definitely agree that part of the depression explosion is the fact that it’s actually being regularly recognized and dealt with.  In the older days, women who were suffering under these kinds of strain just drank a lot, took it out on their kids, and otherwise exploded.  One difference is that our standards for behavior are higher now, so we actually notice when people act absurdly.

Comment #84: Punditus Maximus  on  05/26  at  04:15 PM

All that, Punditus, and Valium was the #1 most prescribed drug.  There’s a reason that “mother’s little helper” entered the parlance.

Comment #85: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  04:18 PM

Seeing that the inspiration came from a perjorative term:

So Ferengi—> Frank—> Christendom—> accepting the medieval church’s view of women? I can buy that.

Except now I have the disturbing image of Douthat’s good lady wife massaging his ears.

Comment #86: Gracchus.  on  05/26  at  04:24 PM

Ashley:

This is just part of the reason why I take umbrage with the idea that all depression, no matter what, is a mental illness requiring medication. It’s not.

See, this is the problem with equivocation. You’re seeing people use the word “depression” in one sense, the clinical sense, and then counter-arguing based on a different meaning of the same word, the common one that is completely interchangeable with the word “sad.” The solution to the problem of multivalent vocabulary is to get better at deducing intended meanings from context, not to confuse the multiple meanings and then get upset when people tell you that you’re missing the point.

What we need is better verbage to differentiate between the normal emotional reaction to a shitty life and the mental illness. Not sure if that’s going to happen though.

Every language in the world has hundreds if not thousands of words with multiple common meanings, so it’s pretty unlikely that it’s as detrimental to communication as you’re implying it is.

Comment #87: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  05/26  at  04:25 PM

I think this little comment diversion shows just how problematic that the wide colloquial definition of depression is. People seem to think that by stating that there is a normal human emotional response that is commonly referred to as depression, I’m denying that there is a fundamental mental illness called depression, when I’m patently (and repeatedly) not.

There’s a trend in general of colloquializing the names of various mental illnesses. I have met too many people who, say, are annoyed by asymmetry and claim that they’re OCD. Or see a kid who’s distracted due to life events, like say being taken out of his home and placed in foster care, or hell even being an 8 year old boy who doesn’t pick up at the first request as having ADHD. Or a 3 year old being bouncy and hyper as being clinically hyperactive. Certainly ADD, ADHD, and OCD exist and these are symptoms of those diseases, but they’re also totally normal human behaviors. Personally I don’t feel comfortable in a largely white room (which made house hunting FUN), and some can and have said it’s because I have mild OCD (which I don’t), but it’s really that I just like dark colors better.

I really wish we spoke more precisely about these things, because this muddle is making it worse for people.

Comment #88: Ashley  on  05/26  at  04:27 PM

The source of clinical depression (of whatever degree) is brain chemistry, but what allows the “Black Dog” to climb on one’s back and dig in its heavy paws is definitely environment (and specifically, lack of options to escape a personally toxic environment).

Comment #89: Gracchus.  on  05/26  at  04:27 PM

And Dan, I gave a personal example above as to how this confusion has negatively effected my life. Shockingly I think trying to drug children simply for crying is more than a bit problematic.

And how often do you hear people talk about being sad for longer than, say, 5 minutes? A more chronic state of sadness is commonly referred to as depression. Maybe all of your friends use more precise language, but mine don’t. I don’t know any sad people, but I know people who are depressed because they’re stressed about grad school, depressed because they lost their father, depressed because they lost their job, depressed because their mother is sick, etc. etc. etc. I also know one person who’s significantly suicidally depressed with multiple hospitalizations. Many of these people probably do benefit from medication and almost all from talk therapy, but one of these people is fundamentally different from the other. One has something wrong with them, the others (probably, again I don’t know all the details nor do I presume to know) are having normal human responses.

Comment #90: Ashley  on  05/26  at  04:32 PM

I don’t really see the point in coming down like a bag of bricks on someone who needs anti-depressants to get them through something that might just make someone else sad.  Some people can recover from losing a spouse pretty quickly.  For many, it makes pasta overcooking unbelievably paralyzing.  That’s why we have doctors—-these things are highly individual.  Putting some kinds of depression into the “worthy” and the “unworthy” category by declaring situational but extreme sadness into one category strikes me as needlessly cruel.  It also manages to bring in PTSD, which is a legit disease recognized by the military and everything!

Comment #91: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  04:37 PM

From the paper Douthat cites:

Aguiar and Hurst (2007) document relatively equal declines in total work hours since 1965 for both men and women with the increase in hours of market work by women offset by large declines in their non-market work.

From Aguiar and Hurst (edited):


(hours per week)  1965   1975   1985   1993   2003   2003-1965
Panel 1: Full sample                
Core market work   29.63   28.79   27.74   29.93   28.63   -1.00
Total market work   35.98   33.79   32.67   33.22   31.71   -4.27
Total nonmarket     22.09   20.15   21.00   18.40   18.31   -3.78
Child care: total     3.67   3.11     3.64     3.11   5.50     1.83
Total work         61.74   57.05   57.31   54.73   55.53   -6.21
Panel 2: Men                
Core market work   42.09   39.80   36.86   38.52   35.54   -6.55
Total market work   51.58   46.53   43.35   42.74   39.53   -12.05
Total nonmarket     9.67   10.85   13.96   12.44   13.43   3.75
Child care: total     1.44     1.40   1.66   1.47     3.24   1.80
Total work         62.69   58.78   58.97   56.65   56.20   -6.49
Panel 3: Women                
Core market work   18.83   19.24   19.84   22.49   22.65   3.82
Total market work   22.45   22.74   23.41   24.97   24.93   2.48
Total nonmarket     32.86   28.21   27.10   23.56   22.55   -10.31
Child care: total     5.60   4.60     5.36     4.54     7.46   1.86
Total work         60.91   55.55   55.87   53.06   54.94   -5.97


Firstly, I find it difficult to credit that women are only working on average 3-4 more hours a week outside the home now then they were in 1965.  So that’s a huge red flag.

The second aspect is that that’s irrelevant.  Women spend an average of 30 hours a week on nonmarket work and child care.  Men spend an average of 17 hours a week on those two tasks.  So for households in which both partners have roughly equal work allocations (i.e. both full time), the implication is that women have about 2 hours a day more work than men do.  However, women who do not work full time can end up with roughly equal time allocations as their husbands, if you find the above data credible.

Unfortunately, the data used in the study Douthat cites do not separate out for full-time and part-time work status.

Comment #92: Punditus Maximus  on  05/26  at  04:38 PM

Regarding depression, I think it was here, I saw an article that suggested people with young children are generally less happy, and generrally single moms are the ones raising the children so it seems likely that they would be more subject to depression.

Douchhat seems to ignore birth control as an option in most of his writing, unless of course it is to somehow imply that a girl is “inclean” for being on birht control.

Comment #93: John Rove  on  05/26  at  04:39 PM

Sorry for the formatting.  If someone who knows HTML could turn that into a nice table, I’d be obliged.

Comment #94: Punditus Maximus  on  05/26  at  04:39 PM

The happiness difference found in that paper is pretty small.

The raw data is distinctively unimpressive:

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/myl/llog/Happiness1.gif

http://158.130.17.5/~myl/languagelog/archives/004965.html

Comment #95: lemmy caution  on  05/26  at  04:41 PM

Also, the idea that “normal human responses” are a different category from legitimate depression is a problem.  It gets to this point where we’re trying to put “normal” and “pathological” into different boxes, and declaring only the latter worthy of care.  False.  Many normal, non-pathological environmental responses require medical intervention: childbirth, allergies, fertility, pain in response to injury come to mind.  Stress and depression may indeed be part of a continuum of evolved responses to environmental stimuli.  They may only be temporary.  You could even call them “sadness”, if you want. Doesn’t mean they aren’t debilitating, and that people suffering from the “normal” depression don’t need intervention.  It probably does mean that you have to ask if that person needs drugs or a change of scenery or both, but it doesn’t mean that it’s not real.

Comment #96: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  04:42 PM

I pray they never put him in the print edition. Also—doesn’t Douthat look like a fetal Rush Limbaugh? (who in turn looks like Jabba the Hut on the Atkins diet.)

Basically the column is “Look, I read a paper!” followed by pulling thoughts out of his ass, featuring the false dilemna and the idea that the problem with single mothers is that society hasn’t stigmatized them sufficiently. (Isn’t being broke and overworked enough punishment for “the right to leave abusive marriages’?)

The headline should have been “Bring Back the Scarlet Letter.”

lifestyles that run counter to their biological imperatives

Any lifestyle that does not feature making babies and staying home with them, to mop their fevered brows, bake them cookies, and rinse out their diapers in the toilet.

Comment #97: Hector B.  on  05/26  at  04:44 PM

Oh, regarding depression: Mommies take pills; Daddies think murder-suicide.

Comment #98: Hector B.  on  05/26  at  04:45 PM

Sorry for the formatting.  If someone who knows HTML could turn that into a nice table, I’d be obliged.

Just gave it a shot. Table tags don’t work (at least not in preview)

Comment #99: Gracchus.  on  05/26  at  04:55 PM

Amanda:

Putting some kinds of depression into the “worthy” and the “unworthy” category by declaring situational but extreme sadness into one category strikes me as needlessly cruel.

Who said anything about “worthy” and “unworthy”? Or, for that matter, “real” and “not real” or “debilitating” and “not debilitating”? It certainly wasn’t me.

Separating depression into “clinical” and “not clinical” isn’t a value judgment. That some doctors can’t tell the difference either isn’t a problem with the language or the word, it’s a problem with the doctors. And if you think I’m making fun of people for getting sad or stressed or whatever, you read way more into my comment than was really there.

Comment #100: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  05/26  at  05:13 PM

eh -  I take everything ashley says with a grain of salt.  This is another example of her mucking up a discussion with “If I don’t see it, it must not be real!”  Her response to depression reminds me of her steadfast belief in staggering vaccinations and skipping some she deems not necessary, even though the scientific community does not agree with her.

Comment #101: kitten parade  on  05/26  at  05:13 PM

Of course women were happier and more satisfied with their lives in the 50’s. That’s why Betty Friedan’s The Feminine Mystique gathered dust on bookstore shelves, never launched a major social movement and enjoys such obscurity to this day.

Comment #102: jonas  on  05/26  at  05:23 PM

So, what is Douchehat going to do for an encore: give us the Earl Butz secret to happiness for Black people?

Comment #103: Ms Kate  on  05/26  at  05:26 PM

Many normal, non-pathological environmental responses require medical intervention: childbirth, allergies, fertility, pain in response to injury come to mind.

It was the use of chloroform by Queen Victoria when she had one of her children that ‘legitimized’ such usage, prior to that some religious figures were against it because it went against the verse “and you shall bear them in pain and sorrow.”

gracchus:

DRINKWATER. No, gavner: these eah Moors ez their religion; an it mikes
em dinegerous. Hever convert a Moor, gavner?

RANKIN (with a rueful smile). No.

DRINKWATER (solemnly). Nor never will, gavner.

RANKIN. I have been at work here for twenty-five years, Mr. Drinkwotter;
and you are my first and only convert.

DRINKWATER. Down’t seem naow good, do it, gavner?

RANKIN. I don’t say that. I hope I have done some good. They come to me
for medicine when they are ill; and they call me the Christian who is
not a thief. THAT is something.

Captain Brassbound’s Conversion.

George Bernard Shaw

Comment #104: Dark Avenger Guardian Chow Mein  on  05/26  at  05:37 PM

Ms Kate:
I’d forgotten that one.  Now I remember hearing it decades ago and being wryly amused at the implied and VERY incorrect assumption that white men aren’t interested in “tight p - - - - , loose shoes and a warm place to s - - -”.  All het white males are, and our gay brethren are interested in two out of three.

Comment #105: seeker6079  on  05/26  at  05:46 PM

eh - I take everything ashley says with a grain of salt.  This is another example of her mucking up a discussion with “If I don’t see it, it must not be real!” Her response to depression reminds me of her steadfast belief in staggering vaccinations and skipping some she deems not necessary, even though the scientific community does not agree with her.

...or that one time, when Ashley suggested that if we all “eat intuitively,” like she does, we’ll all eat the right amounts of the right things and be very, very healthy. Just like her! Sorry, some of us needed some Zoloft to make it through a rough patch, others need structured eating plans to stay healthy. Different strokes, different folks and all that.

Comment #106: Jenny Dreadful  on  05/26  at  06:05 PM

I think Dan and Ashley’s point about clinical vs. non-clinical depression is very important.

My grandmother was given an anti-depressant when her second husband died.  They did not try talk therapy or group therapy either first or in conjunction with the drug.  She has been on an antidepressant now for about 8 years.  She began experiencing anxiety, about a year or two after they gave her antidepressants, and so now they have her on an anti-anxiety drug as well.  That’s right—an upper and a downer, to balance out the upper. 

For the brief length of time, about a year after she started taking the drug, she was in group therapy, she was decidedly better, and expressed her happiness more often.  Now, she is severely physically debilitated, and cannot attend group, and is starting to show severe side effects that are probably connected to the anti-depressant (being that they match more closely to the list of side-effects for that med than for her other meds).  Recently, they tried to put her on an anti-seizure medication, which is also prescribed off-label for manic depression.  She is not diagnosed with manic depression. 

My point with all this rambling is that it is very scary to me that their first and only resort was to put her on drugs.  She was sad, she may have been depressed (I’m not a doc. and I didn’t examine her), but it is shocking that they did not even have a single talk therapy session with her before putting her on antidepressents.  I know that they are an absolute godsend for some, and they may have been necessary or appropriate for my grandmother.  But it does not look to me like anyone bothered to find out.

Comment #107: Ismone  on  05/26  at  06:12 PM

...And another post from another reader who has voiced unverified suspicion of vaccinations and vaccine schedules! This time weighing on the other other favored topic! antidepressants!  All doctors want to do is drug people into submission and give unnecessary chemicals to your babies! MWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!

Look, Ismone, I am not denying is happening to your grandmother.  Hell, I have had bad experiences with doctors and medications (hello, don’t give benzodiazepines to a person that has a history of alcohol abuse!)  But I think the problems stem less from the so call “medicalization” of people’s emotions and more from the current state of health care industry in this country.  It could be that the doctors and nurses working with your grandmother are fighting an uphill battle against insurance companies that will not cover talk therapy or behavior therapy.  However, you are not a doctor. You can have hints and inklings that things are not right, but unless you ask the doctor you really are not doing anything more than speculating, which doesn’t do anything except spread misinformation.

Comment #108: kitten parade  on  05/26  at  06:32 PM

Ismone, which anti-anxiety drug was she given?  I’m curious because often drugs for anxiety are just low-dose antidepressants.  I’m not a doctor and I don’t know your grandmother, but is it possible that she suffers from bipolar disorder?

I agree that some doctors are too quick to prescribe psychiatric drugs, but that doesn’t take away from the fact that many people genuinely need them.  I once had a doctor prescribe me low-dose antidepressants for heart palpitations.  He insisted that the palpitations were due to anxiety, even though I only had them (or maybe only noticed them) when I was most calm.  A month later when I was home from school, my PCP had the basic competence to check for hypothyroidism, which I had.  The school doctor might have tested for it if he had bothered to listen to any of my other symptoms.  Anyway, my point is that even though I had a bad doctor, that doesn’t take away from the real help that antidepressants have given to so many people.  My advice to anyone reading this is to go to a specialist if your general practitioner wants to prescribe you antidepressants, just like you would do for many other diagnoses.  If you have a doctor who doesn’t like the idea of getting a specialist’s opinion, then you should try to find a better doctor.

Comment #109: bananacat  on  05/26  at  06:35 PM

Drugs are easier to obtain, commit to and follow-up with than group therapies or 1:1 therapies. You don’t have to consider if a pill has a friendly manner, isn’t going to retire or become sick, can’t reschedule an appointment, has a bitchy person in them, etc. Yes, teaching coping skills and support via group therapy is excellent, but is not possible for all people. A mental health clinic with multiple certified counselors can only take so many people, it is unlikely that a pharmacy is going to not be able to fill prozac for you due to being too popular. Drugs can be mailed to senior citizens living in the boonies who can’t drive, unlike a group support system.
I am not arguing that these are okay things, I think it would be incredibly awesome to have frequent, professional counseling to rural areas, seniors who can’t drive, etc. But it isn’t a reality we have right now.
Saying “everyone should go to groups or have a counselor instead of taking drugs!” is not a reality for many people. If a drug works for people, let the drug work for people, instead of pushing something that may or may not work. And I do mean in situations which would be “normal sadness” or anxiety, or however you want to phrase it. My mother was stressing out to the degree of not sleeping, smoking more, etc. due to a new job, even after 6 months. I’m not going to the one to say “well you should have joined a group therapy session and changed your lifestyle before taking your Zoloft, which has made your job bearable, your homelife happier and less smoking.” While I can understand the frustration in misdiagnosis and wanting a quickie solution instead of honestly working on problems in life, I feel that a lot of misery can be avoided with antidepressants, even for situation issues.
Like I’ve told patients, no, an antidepressant isn’t going to change the circumstances in your life, but it may give you the ability to see that things can change, that you are a worthwhile person who can experience happiness. When you’re in that much of depression, whether from true clinical Major Depression or an episodic mood disorder, you can not see that.  Something that lets someone see that again (or for the first time) is not an inherently bad thing.

Comment #110: Tenya  on  05/26  at  06:58 PM

... I am pro-vaccinations and understand that some people need to get their serotonin reuptake under control first and foremost, either because the real facts of the world mean they can’t get to counseling or because they need to be more stable before they even think about counseling.

I am also downright pissed off that people give something as horribly habit-forming as Effexor to minors, and that there exists such a thing as Effexor samples (I understand that samples are often used to fill in between prescriptions, but even calling something that can make you that sick a “sample” upsets me).

Comment #111: purpleshoes  on  05/26  at  07:19 PM

Who said anything about “worthy” and “unworthy”? Or, for that matter, “real” and “not real” or “debilitating” and “not debilitating”? It certainly wasn’t me.

No, not you.  But Ashley was heading straight towards categorizing temporary depression as just “the blues” that needs to be bucked up through.

Comment #112: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  08:16 PM

And I say all this as someone who was given Zoloft, took it for a bit, decided it wasn’t for me, and refused to take anti-depressants after that.  It doesn’t work for everyone, of course.  But I’m not going to take my experience and pay it forward into judging people who do use the drugs. 

The problem is that people take an either/or attitude about “chemical imbalances” in the brain.  Either they’re “real”, i.e. genetic and somehow not your fault, or they’re “normal”, i.e. environmental and something you need to work through with will or therapy.  Brain chemistry is not that simple.  Hormones are there to react to your environment, and your brain changes dependent on environmental cues.  There is no such thing as purely genetic or purely environmental—-these things work in conjunction.  That’s why the entire disease/not-disease attempts to categorize different causes depression are problematic.  If you’re suffering an out of control bout of depression, it could be that outside factors changed your brain chemistry, or that you have a genetic tendency towards mental illness or some combo of the two.  And how to treat it is even more complex. 

When I hear the word “natural” or “normal”, I seize up.  These are the worst kind of loaded words, with very little real content, but lots of connotations.  What people consider natural depends on their prejudices.  Witness how wingnuts use the “unnatural” argument against gays and birth control.  So when I hear lefties use it to bully depressed people or try to squeeze people away from vaccinating their kids, I get upset.

Comment #113: Amanda Marcotte  on  05/26  at  08:28 PM

The traditionalist will see evidence of a revolution gone awry, in which women have been pressured into lifestyles that run counter to their biological imperatives, and men have been liberated to embrace a piggish irresponsibility

If certain behaviors are such biological imperatives, then why are women so easily led astray from them?  Really, it hasn’t taken much pressure at all to get women to throw off those socially constructed shackles biological imperatives.  In most cases it’s just a simple matter of presenting women with a choice.  More often than not, women will make the choice that Douchehat doesn’t approve of, which justifies the use of various types of coercion to bring women into compliance with his demands.  He should just admit that his ideas can’t compete in a free market and be done with it.

Comment #114: DonnaDiva  on  05/26  at  08:28 PM

Why do we have to take all the psych data with a grain of salt? Because for most of a century the socially-defined acceptable behavior pattern for an adult woman—relative lack of concern with the broader world, frequent expressions of emotion, disfavoring of “logical” argument patterns—was itself a DSM category called hysteria.

But oddly, what I think the happiness study in question shows, insofar as it shows anything with its shifting definitions and huge error bars, is just how horrific traditional patriarchy is for men. You’ve got the repression, you’ve got the economic pressure, you’ve got the requirement to pretend that you’re top dog and everything is fine, you’ve got the marriage-for-life and no-sex-with-equals things, blah blah blah. (Yes, even more horrific for women, but bear with me for the rest of the paragraph.) So as all those strictures ease, and men get to have feelings, get to share economic burdens, get to get out of failed marriages and so forth, there’s plenty of reason for their life satisfaction to go up. (And of course, any economist would predict that, as the group in an aggregate position of power, men would be able to capture most of the benefits from changes like a loosening of patriarchal rules.)

Douthat, of course, is just plain stupid, with his whole sexual stigma thing front and center. If you believe making not-legally-married mothers more miserable will make women as a group happier, then you probably also believe abstinence education works…

Comment #115: paul  on  05/26  at  08:30 PM

You know, kitten parade, I do not understand why you feel the need to lead with something completely irrelevant to the discussion, and then agree with me.  Either I’m a crazy fuck, or I have a point.  In my grandmother’s case, she has incredible insurance.  Talk therapy would be covered.

One does not have to be a doctor to understand studies and side effects.  One does not have to be a doctor to notice that your grandmother’s behavior changes based on how much medication she is on, and that certain changes are correlated with certain medications.  My grandmother was so fully drugged that once we managed to get her in to see a polypharmacy and detox. specialist, he recommended detox. treatment to get her off of some of the prescription medications that are causing her both physical pain and mental anguish.  (The drugs are scaling back, and her condition is improving, although it turns out that one drug she was on was really helping her pain, and it was removed.  Sadly, because that drug was starting to cause liver failure, she cannot go back on it.)  And BTW, many of the problems with my grandmothers’ medications were discovered first by my dad, who is not a doctor, and then verified by doctors.  He would say, look for x, they would pooh-pooh his suggestion, then finally follow it, and lo and behold, he has about an 80% accuracy rate, mostly because he reads drug inserts and journal articles.

I am not saying drugs are bad.  Drugs are a bloody godsend.  But they need to be used properly, and in my grandmother’s particular case, antidepressants were treated as a drug of first resort.  And in her particular case, perhaps she would have been spared a great deal of physical and psychological pain had that not been done.  One thing that is particularly sad about her condition is that now, certain drugs that used to work wonderfully for her are now ineffective.  Perhaps it is age, perhaps she has built up a tolerance, who knows. 

With regard to vaccines, I stand on my past statements.  I have never claimed that doctors are somehow bad, I have claimed that it is reasonable for people to be concerned with regard to changes in medical protocol that were made without studies being done to see how the changes affect the potency of the vaccine.  One thing I argued in favor of on that thread are studies to measure the affectiveness of Hep.-B given at birth, because if it is ineffective, I would re-vax. my child as they aged.  So your nasty attack doesn’t even stick, and in any event, it isn’t an argument, just an ad hom.

catgirl,

She has gone through several, including Zoloft, and her anti-anxiety meds. were actually depressants.  Re: bipolar disorder, I think this is unlikely—even the doc. who prescribed her the med. didn’t claim she was bipolar, another doctor has said that her mood swings are entirely linked to the meds. she is on, and if she is bipolar, she can hide it like no one’s business—I’ve known one unmedicated bipolar person, and two who occassionally medicated.  (And so that kitten parade doesn’t think I’m encouraging bipolar people to quit their meds., I’m not—the one person who is unmedicated cannot tolerate the drugs, and suffers greatly through depressive states, and the other two who are unmedicated sporadically seem to do a lot of damage to themselves and others when they are off their meds.  I’m just repeating what their doctors have said, btw.)  And I absolutely agree with you that many people need antidepressants, and of course they should have access to them, and I would never criticize someone for using their own best judgment, along with a doctor’s advice, to determine that antidepressants or other psychoactive drugs are the best for them.  And I think your point about a second opinion is spot-on—my GP is a great doc., but even she missed it when I had mono.—a fact that was picked up by a doctor at my university’s clinic who had never seen me before.

Tenya,

I see your point, but I was disturbed that talk therapy was not something that was considered or discussed with my grandmother, let alone tried, even though she was a usually happy person who had just lost her husband to cancer.  In her particular situation, she was retired, had about the most awesome insurance you can get, was capable of driving about and was open to the idea of therapy. 

I’m not sure if we’re defining “normal sadness” the same way, and if the drugs worked for your mother, that is fantastic.  But if she was given drugs without her care provider discussing the possibility of other forms of therapy, I would be a little concerned.

Comment #116: Ismone  on  05/26  at  08:48 PM

I just want to make it clear that I completely agree with Amanda’s 7:28 post—my point isn’t bad anti-depressants, or that depression is either based on “sadness” or chemical imbalance, merely that it is complex and that for some people, a drugs-first approach appears to have negative affects.

But getting back into it, Douthat sucks.  If women really were a monolithic group, like the “bitches ain’t shit” crowd thinks, I would tell the other members of my all-encompassing female monolith to never screw Douthat or his ilk.  Since we’re not, all I can do is ask the many women from many walks of life, be they feminist or anti or agnostic, please don’t screw this guy.  Seriously.  He’ll probably write about what a slut you are if you even try.

Comment #117: Ismone  on  05/26  at  08:51 PM

There’s a Taliban in this country. Oh, they’re not as bold as, say, the ones in Waziristan, but they are every bit as sophisticated, every bit as sure they’re correct, and every bit as medieval. When you can get them to say what they really think, which is surprisingly easy because, again, they are sure they’re doing God’s bidding, they will tell you “women would be happier if they’d just stay at home”. Or, that homosexuals need to be “re-educated” in camps. It makes Margaret Atwood look like quite the prophetess…

Comment #118: Velkykanec  on  05/27  at  12:01 AM

i overheard the bestest, most interesting conversation the other day…
a friend of my boyfriend’s came over while boyfriend was doing the dishes. friend walks into kitchen and is apparently stunned at the sight of BF doing dishes. it went something like this.
Friend: what the hell are you doing?
BF: are you stupid? i’m doing the dishes
F: yes, but why are you doing the dishes?
BF: they need to be washed.
F: why doesn’t your girlfriend do the dishes?
BF: because i would rather her pay half the bills than do all the housework.
which is actually true. when we moved in together, i spoke very bluntly and said for every 5% over half of the household chores that i had to do, i was pay $100 less of the bills. we live in the cheapest part of town. if it ever got to where i was doing 80% of the housework, i wasn’t paying any bills.
but i will be honest. i physically can’t do many things, and so the housework is sitting about 60% him - and i pay extra. which we both deem totally fair. (i don’t pay $200 extra. because some of the things that add into that 60% are things i wouldn’t do no matter what, and there are things that don’t get done that i *would* do if i could. and because he doesn’t mind doing what he does and would have to do it if i weren’t here, so… sometimes i think i should pay $200 extra, and he always talks me out of it. i console myself with the fact that i buy most of the groceries and that pretty much makes up for it)

i wish everyone had mates with whom they could do this. i know i am lucky.
Pete and i would probably both be considered happy so far as living with each other goes (i am depressed, of course - constant chronic pain and PTSD. so of course…). i will never ever again live with *anyone* who doesn’t do at least half of the housework. (which yes, seems slightly hypocritical because i don’t currently do half, but i literally am not *capable* of doing half. there is a difference between “won’t” and “can’t”)

i have tried to convert various people to my method of making sure the housework is equal. basically, you sit down, and divide all the chores into $ amounts, approx based on rent/mortage payment. say that the rent on a place is $600and 3 people (yes, really cheap housing). if one person only does $100 worth of chores in a month, that person pays an extra $100 in rent that the other person(s) doesn’t have to pay. it works, if it is done right. and i have noticed with male roommates that once they see “housework” priced, it stops being “women’s work” somehow. in a funny tale, this is how i didn’t have to pay any rent for 8 months at one point - my two roommates, after having agreed to this plan, decided that they didn’t mind whatsoever paying an extra $250 a month so that they didn’t have to do any housework outside of their own laundry (i will never ever ever do another person’s laundry). it worked out, and i was able at that time to save a looooooooot of money which turned out to be a lifesaver later.

Comment #119: denelian  on  05/27  at  12:16 AM

Phoebe Fay, I personally can’t buy that what’s commonly referred to as ‘depression’ is necessarily a disease and not a perfectly logical response to a situation.

I was demonstrably depressed from age 9-23. I was also in an abusive household, constantly ridiculed or ignored, later forced to run away from home where I dealt with poverty, rape, abusive relationships, significant stress, and throughout all of this poor nutrition and very erratic sleep. My life was a recipe for horrible depression, and shockingly, I was depressed.

And, a pill wouldn’t have made all of this shit go away. Maybe it would have drugged me into complacency, but it certainly would not have fixed my problems.

This is called “situational depression”, and is normal response to situations. With situational depression, the key is to change the situation. Medications might help, but are really just a temporary fix, a way to help push you out of your situation. Most people experience this type of depression at some point in their lives. (like after a death or breakup…)

“Clinical depression”, however, is different. No matter WHAT the situation, no matter how good or bad things are, you are still depressed. I have this, and I’ve found that I need my medication to FUNCTION. It does not make me “happy”, exactly. But it enables me to LIVE, to not be suicidal, to enjoy my relationship, or my friends, or a bike ride, or the sunset, and have that make me happy like it would a normal person.

I have been on medication for over 10 years. I’ve occasionally tried to stop (I don’t like feeling “dependent” on meds, but as my doctor explained, I have an illness, and incurable one, but treatable, and like anyone who is ill, I am dependent on the meds, but so what? Isn’t it better to be alive and on drugs than dead?

Situational and clinical depression can both result in suicide, I am not saying one is worse than the other or more “real” than the other, but they are different and need different treatments.

Comment #120: slingshot  on  05/27  at  01:11 AM

I think pathologizing normal human emotions, even if they’re negative, is fundamentally wrong. To say one has a disease is to say that something is WRONG with them, and being sad about a shitty life is perfectly reasonable and not at all an illness.

Being sad about a shitty life is NOT depression.

If you are so sad you are suicidal, THAT is depression. It’s not an emotion, which passes with time or situation changes. It’s a CONSTANT STATE OF PAIN. As a sufferer, I can tell you there is definitely something WRONG. In fact, I’m insulted that you think otherwise.

Comment #121: slingshot  on  05/27  at  01:19 AM

The problem is that people take an either/or attitude about “chemical imbalances” in the brain.  Either they’re “real”, i.e. genetic and somehow not your fault, or they’re “normal”, i.e. environmental and something you need to work through with will or therapy.  Brain chemistry is not that simple.  Hormones are there to react to your environment, and your brain changes dependent on environmental cues.  There is no such thing as purely genetic or purely environmental—-these things work in conjunction.  That’s why the entire disease/not-disease attempts to categorize different causes depression are problematic.  If you’re suffering an out of control bout of depression, it could be that outside factors changed your brain chemistry, or that you have a genetic tendency towards mental illness or some combo of the two.  And how to treat it is even more complex.

Exactly. It’s not nature OR nurture, it’s BOTH. I can see with my depression it’s both, I had my mom raising me, and I had her genes. Who knows what would of happened if I was raised in a different home, or if I was born from a different family and adopted into mine? My mom has borderline personality disorder, and the rate of daughters with mothers who have BPD who get it themselves is very high, so frankly I’m extremely lucky I didn’t get that. And at least my depression is treatable. I’ve yet to find a solution for my trichotillomania… And my mother has never found anything for her BPD (a very very hard illness to treat).

Comment #122: slingshot  on  05/27  at  01:25 AM

Re: depression

Let’s see… I take my meds, I don’t want to kill myself. I’m not “happy”, but I’m functioning. I need to make some major life circumstance changes before I really have a chance at “happy”.

I don’t take my meds, after a while I think running my minivan into a cement wall at 90 miles an hour would be a dandy idea, because my kids would be better off without someone as horrible as me for a mother and they could move on with their lives.

Granted, I would love to backtrack and remember who was the one who first prescribed me Effexor when most of the traditional SSRI’s were no longer working, as they never mentioned the physical addiction, and when I’ve been suicidal in the ER for being out of the med for 3 days because the vertigo and crying jags make me completely irrational the doctors THERE won’t believe me its the lack of medication because THEY don’t know about the addictiveness… but yeah. It’s not physiological and I’m using a crutch. Snerk.

Comment #123: TheRealistMom  on  05/27  at  01:27 AM

TheRealistMom, yeah. I think I would be less mean on the whole subject of antidepressants if Effexor was off the table - it’s just such a vicious drug, and I can’t give the anecdata I want to here because it involves someone I love, not me, but there is a psychiatrist out there who I want to punch in the neck for not giving us any indication of what we were in for.

I have handled depressive symptoms and anxiety through talk therapy, therefore talk therapy works for me; maybe that’s as good a marker of not having clinical depression as anything. I have seen a lot of people in my life medicated for clinical depression because they hated their jobs, though. I realize that sometimes you just can’t quit your job and find something that suits you better, but something in me does wince at the idea of being medicated because you’re trapped economically. It’s better then suffering unmedicated, I… guess?

Comment #124: purpleshoes  on  05/27  at  01:48 PM

In defense of Effexor, it worked for me when Zoloft didn’t even make a dent. And the experience of going off it seems to vary from person to person. You obviously had a terrible experience, and I’m so sorry. For me, stopping it was really annoying for a few days - constant brain zaps - but not unbearable.

I just started back on it (the generic version) a week ago. And this time, I expect I’m going to have to stick with it for a much longer time. Third time round, I have to acknowledge that this is chronic.

As for medication for situational depression, sometimes the medication is what allows a person to make the changes to the situation. Depression is insidious. It steals hope. It convinces you that change is impossible. It makes you believe you don’t deserve a better situation. It makes you believe there are no options other than living with misery or eventually killing yourself. If those feelings have really taken hold, it becomes extraordinarily difficult to change a situation.

Sometimes people can fight through it on their own and change things, and sometimes talk therapy is enough, but sometimes medication is perfectly valid option.

Comment #125: Phoebe Fay  on  05/27  at  02:10 PM

“It’s better then suffering unmedicated, I… guess?”

Well, if you’re in a bad situation and you really and truly can’t get out of it, then yeah.  If you can at least function, you’re losing less of your life to the physiological and mental problems caused by your circumstances, and you’re less likely to wind up with secondary problems (anxiety, disordered eating, substance abuse, etc.) or exacerbating previously controlled mental/physical health issues.  You’re basically in damage-control mode.  And of course, if drugs can get someone into a better place mentally, that can frequently enable them to get themselves into a better place overall.

Comment #126: preying mantis  on  05/27  at  02:14 PM

preying mantis and Phoebe Fay, that’s a good point. I think the reason I am concerned about the crossover between situational depression and clinical depression is because for me, situational depression is motivating, not demotivating, which again is probably an important indication of whether or not medication is really the route to take. I think I’m still a little stuck with the 1950s stereotype of housewives tranquilizing themselves into coping with oppression - where you raise the important point that proper medical care can actually make it possible to do something about it.

Comment #127: purpleshoes  on  05/27  at  02:59 PM

Purpleshoes—if you found situational depression motivating, what you were experiencing was almost certainly *not* situational depression.

Depression is more than just negative emotions.  I had major depression for years that might have been either situational or biological.  I got better at around 17, as puberty was calming down *and* as I was preparing to move out of the house. 

A quick look at the diagnostic literature will show you that depression is one of the least productive mental states imaginable.

Comment #128: Boolean  on  05/27  at  03:11 PM

Boolean, I am sure you understand the distinction between “full of vim for life” and “miserable enough to go to drastic lengths to change situation”. I am pleased to find that my personal limits for sharing medical information on the internet stops short of ticking off DSMIV criteria to make my point, but I do want to note that like many other situationally miserable people I have been offered medication for depression. After following this thread this far, I am happy that that option is on offer for people who would respond well to it; I am also glad that I had the information to judge my own needs and opt for different responses. It has worked out well for me and I am hopeful that it is something that might work out well for (some and not all) others.

Comment #129: purpleshoes  on  05/27  at  03:44 PM

I’ve seen two types of successful therapies for antidepressants.

1) Situational Depression—the person just has too much going on and starts to shut down.  This is effective when the person knows changes have to be made but is too injured emotionally to get it done.  “When you’re up to your ass in alligators, it’s hard to remember that the plan was to drain the swamp.”  Lasts anywhere from a few months to a few years, generally followed by tapering off after the situations have started to stabilize at better points.

2) Chemical chronic depression—post-partum depression and just overall depression.  Strangely, I’ve never seen antidepressants really cure this sort of thing, just make it more bearable.  Eventually, the hormones stop messing with the new moms, or the person with depression gets randomly better.  These seem much more like palliative care, pain relief for the soul.

Comment #130: Punditus Maximus  on  05/27  at  03:50 PM

Over the weekend my wife busted her behind planting the garden. Spent maybe 3 hours doing hard work until the sun went down and it got dark. I was inside playing on the computer, and eventually doing some little housework.

Was this wrong? Or did we just have different personal priorities irrespective of demands from each other?

Comment #131: MarkusR  on  05/27  at  05:02 PM

Denelian, I admire your strategy of calculating the value of housework, and am glad that it has worked out for you.  However, your method is really only fair when everyone is making a similar income.  If both halves of a couple work equal hours, for instance, but one partner earns, say, five times the salary of the other, all sorts of new problems get generated, including resentment on the part of the spouse who gets stuck with all the housework because his/her partner can afford to simply buy his/her way out of it.

Comment #132: Pomme  on  05/27  at  05:06 PM

The results of the data could be interpreted thusly:

Women now feel more comfortable stating that they are unhappy.

Comment #133: Uhura, The Black Gurl  on  05/27  at  06:16 PM

Phoebe Fay I agree in that I wouldn’t want Effexor off the market. It was only given to me after the prozac, zoloft, wellbutrin (I take this now in conjunction with the effexor), imipramine, serzone, and it seems at least one other medication failed to work after a period of time. It should be a last choice med because of the physical addiction issues- I just wish they’d warned me and I wish more physicians were aware of the withdrawal syndrome. I’m terrified for when my divorce is final and I no longer have health insurance, it’s hard enough to scrape together the $30 a month I pay for meds already.

Comment #134: TheRealistMom  on  05/27  at  06:50 PM

This blog and comment thread represent my love/hate relationship (or more accurately my love/hesitant relationship) with Pandagon. I love the bloggers. I learn so much from their insight and breakdown of political and social issues. The comment threads are usually compelling and entertaining.

However, I clicked on the link to Douthat’s column, a column I wouldn’t choose to read otherwise, and got a migraine trying to read it. I’m not using hyperbole. I got a migraine about 10 sentences into the column.  It took me 6 hours to get over it.  I appreciate Amanda’s blogging on Douchehat’s column but maybe you could put a warning before the link. Something like…This link leads to a column that may induce the worst pain you have EVER experienced. Thanks.

Comment #135: shakahi  on  05/27  at  11:04 PM

koobickle: i agree that it is very much a YMMV sort of thing - but, for me at least, when i had a roommate who could (and did) afford to “pay off” the chores as deliniated, i did not feel used or overworked/underappreciated, it really felt like i had an actual second job that i got paid for and everything.
that may not work for a lot of people. and it may work different for others - i used to room with a married couple, and we set this up; the male half made well over $80,000 a year, but he was a *TOTAL* penny pincher, and he calculated how much housework he had to do down to the individual spoon to make sure he didn’t have to pay any extra ever.

i have found that there are two reasons it might be effective in fixing a “second shift” problem - either A) it shows the person who doesn’t feel housework is his/her responsibility that housework is WORK (whether they chip in and do their share or pay the other person(s) for doing their share, they have now realized that WORK is WORK even if it is housework) and/or B) it ends up that the person who is generally assumed to do the bulk of the housework may still be doing it, but feels less taken advantage of, less abused and less taken for granted, because they are getting a specific, concrete reward (being PAID to do your own dishes? i bet that that is every housewife’s dream, to actually be compensated for their work in a tangible way),

again, YMMV, but if nothing else it tends to open eyes about the worth of housework.


Punditus Maximus
you missed on… or maybe it could be considered “situational”, but it tends to be a permenent “situation”.
i don’t think i have ever met a person in chronic pain who was not depressed. to the point where if a person is seeing a doc for chronic pain, they are almost ALWAYS also put on an anti-depressent.
for those who only hear the commercials - anti-depressents DO NOT HELP WITH CHRONIC PAIN. all those people being given anti-depressents for fibromalgia (i was one, at one point, and the fibromalgia is the *least* of my chronic pain problems) are being given things that are supposed to help them *sleep*, because many people believe that one of the root issues with fibromyalgia is that most with it don’t sleep right.

otherwise, people in chronic pain are given anti-depressents because pain makes you depressed.
i can’t take SSRIs or MAOIs because i have porphyria (seriously, lexapro hospitalized me; wellbutrin almost hospitalized me *and* i had to take adrenal meds because it caused me to suffer a temporary adrenial exhaustion… which really means that i spent 24 hours with a BP of about 200/150 because everything was in overdrive…) so i am on Halcyon - a drug not normally used anymore, because the new ones are so much better, and all it really does is let one sleep with much fewer nightmares and such (and, in my case at least, it sort of makes the portion of my brain that actually registers pain to not work while its floating in my system. i wish i could have that effect without being damned near comatose!)

i would love to get actual treatment for my depression. the thing is, i do *not* have the chemical imbalance that is depression, i have the side effect of chronic pain that is depression, so i highly doubt that even if i *could* take all the nifty new anti=depressents, that they would do any good. like i said, most of the people with chronic pain are given SSRIs to regulate sleep (cuz, funny that, blinding screaming pain rather interferes with being able to sleep)

actually, i would kill for a something that would make me stop hurting without making me high at all. there are drugs that make the pain less *there*, but not less painful, and every single one of them messes up my brain. i take oxycodone, as the strongest drug i will take on a regular basis, i have been on it almost a year, and i *still* pass out about half the time from it.
i want to be able t think. pain prevents it. anti-pain meds prevent it.

the best i have found is the duragesic patch, which really only takes the top spike out (instead of a constant 8, i am at a 7.5. which really is tons better than the 8). but duragesic/fentanyl is about $650 a month, and i have limited pharm benifits (i get them through a patient assistance program right now).
there HAS to be something that i can take that helps the pain WITHOUT fucking me up!!!
i wish there was something that would just get rid of the pain, period. nothing short of death will do that, though…

Comment #136: denelian  on  05/28  at  05:34 AM

“actually, i would kill for a something that would make me stop hurting without making me high at all.”

Have you talked to anyone about using methadone for pain management?  It’s cheap as hell if you’re getting a regular scrip from a pain doc, once you’re stable you don’t generally need to go up on your dose unless the pain itself gets worse, you’re less likely to wind up sedated while on it, and the only serious drawback I can think of that you don’t get with other drugs is that it really, really does not play well with benzos.

Comment #137: preying mantis  on  05/28  at  08:15 AM

I have Fibromyalgia, and I’m having some success with low-dose naltrexone.  But in general, Get Thee To A Pain Clinic.  There’s a pretty brutal 80/20 rule in medicine—80% of cases are routine and can be handled by any well-trained practitioner, and 20% require a specialist.  But of those 20%, there’s another 80/20 rule, where that top 4% or so require intervention from one of the best specialists (or teams).

The best docs are much better than even the good docs, if they’re in their specialties.

Comment #138: Punditus Maximus  on  05/28  at  04:04 PM

preying mantis and Punditus Maimus (you guys sound lie\ke the perfect punk duo, btw smile

i was on methadone before the surgeries started. i had worked up to the highest dose over about 2 yeaes. then the surgeries, and the pain is no longer controlable with less thn 30mg of oxycodone - like, my pain management doctor wants to put me on a pain pump of Duladid, because even the oxy isn’t enough.

but, in theory and i hope, we have find the (last! please dear gods let this be the last and go easy and don’t give me MRSA again! i want to WALK…) so orthoscopic to sew up the 4 inch tear in the lining of my hip, and any smaller tears that have acumulated due that one - this really could be THE ONE and then after i am recovered i could PATCH ONLY! oh gods i HOPE! i hate these drugs, even the methadone made me weird and very nausoius (but didnt make me pass out, so tjat was a plus)
cross your fingers for me, i have the injection to test on the 15, and will find out when surgery is on the 23rd.

thank you both for the advice, though!

Comment #139: denelian  on  05/30  at  06:40 AM
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