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Next entry: Brooklyn to be sullied by ‘Straight Pride Parade’ in August Previous entry: The Ur Wingnut

You can neither pray nor wish nor rationalize this conflict away

BooksReligionScience

At the airport, I spied the paperback version of the atheist polemic that caused so much grief that I haven’t read yet: The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.  I’ll admit; I get influenced by blurbs, and this book had a gazillion really great ones.  And even though I’m a hardline atheist like Dawkins, and I’m in full agreement that the hysteria greeting this book says more about the people getting upset (that they’re trying to bully atheists into silence) than about Dawkins, I cracked and bought it.  If all these people enjoyed it/were offended by it, then surely I could learn something from it, right?

I’m less than 100 pages in, and I’ve learned a couple of things.  First of all, reading it on planes causes the inevitable Bible reader next to you discomfort.  Second, Dawkins actually tackles the question in precisely the way you’d hope he would if he’s writing to an audience that largely agrees with him, but needs tools to go out in the world and convince others.  Not by door-knocking, sentimental storytelling means, either.  Atheism spreads primarily by outing people that are already atheists in their thinking, but haven’t yet admitted it completely to themselves or others out of stone cold fear. 


But I digress; I can deal with the book in length later, or not if I’m already bored with the subject when I finish it.  What I want to blog about is something Dawkins says early on, which is a reason I’m glad I bought the book.  He challenges the approach of scientists who pay phony respects to religion, particularly those who go out of their way to say that the theory of evolution doesn’t necessarily contradict religion, when they know full well that it does.  Yes, even religions that revised their beliefs in the face of evolutionary theory to say, okay evolution happens but god is guiding it invisibly.  What Dawkins says on this subject really got my gears running, because I’m both a fan of elegant political solutions and easily annoyed by bad faith, which means I’m constantly at odds with myself, because the former tends to exist through the latter. 

In sum, Dawkins argues, and I agree, that scientists tend to say that religion and science don’t conflict because they have ulterior, if completely understandable, motives.  The government controls research and education funding, and they answer to a public that is largely stuck with an irrational preference for religion.  The public wants to enjoy the benefits of science without taking on the challenge to magical beliefs.  The “no conflict” line, which I’ve peddled before and will probably be lulled into peddling again is a way to get the public to resolve this contradiction.  The problem is that it’s bullshit.  And this is why, which Dawkins keys into, the religious right in America keeps pushing legislation that will immediately get challenged by civil liberties organizations—-they want to put religion vs. science on the stand and heighten the contradictions.  They want to get scientists under oath to weasel around points where the contradictions become obvious, to make people realize you can’t hand wave the conflict away.  As Dawkins notes, if he was put on a stand and asked if he was an atheist and if his study of evolutionary theory helped make him that way, to say no would be an outright lie.  To be political, he’d have to weasel around, and the public would see through his inability to give a straightforward answer.  Considering that the vast majority of scientists are atheists in one sense or another, right wingers just have to keep pulling stunts where scientists have to own their atheism and its grounding in science over and over to make their point.

I’ve been haunted for awhile by Matt Taibbi’s piece on the Dover, Pennsylvania evolution trials.  Since that happened and until I read his piece, I considered the trial a clean win for the side of rationality.  But sitting in the room, the thing that struck Taibbi was how the defenders of science on the stand kept nearly perjuring themselves when pressed by the Thomas More lawyers about their feelings on the relationship of science and religion.  It was well understood by witnesses that the big, fat no-no was to ever admit that science directly challenges religion, that rationality directly challenges religion, that to really embrace rational thought results in rejecting the fairy tale about the big guy or gals upstairs.  Taibbi called our bluff; we say, “Oh, it’s no problem.  This research and way of looking at the world need not upset your belief in god, even though I quit believing in god once I got used to thinking rationally,” but we’re lying.  We know that teaching critical thinking, logical, and science will create a positive effect on the number of atheists in the world, and while that’s certainly not the goal of teaching these things, it’s a side effect that makes many a parent squirm.  I know a lot of atheists, and almost all of them were born to believers of some sort or another, and became atheists precisely because they got educated and the big fat glaring logic holes that make god not only unlikely, but an embarrassing thing to cling to like a ratty Care Bear, just overwhelmed them.  (To be fair, a lot of atheists like myself have parents that are indifferent to our religious beliefs, and don’t have any to speak of themselves.) 

But I find myself where I often do when I’m in a totally honest with myself mode—-totally stuck.  Playing the public is a critical thing to keeping science safe from some paranoid crackdown.  But reassuring the public that their kids aren’t going to jump off and become atheists if they major in biology is basically lying.  I mean, not all, but let’s face it, some.  Many, if they get graduate degrees especially.  An honest assessment of evolutionary theory, which will happen in a percentage of people presented with it in school, will lead to atheism or at least deep questioning most of the time.  That you can always find people who have moving tales of how they managed to live with cognitive dissonance doesn’t change the fact that this information will cause a lot of people to come around to realizing there is no god.

Dawkins apparently thinks the solution is (this is something of a guess, since I’ve only just begun the book) to get atheists out of the closet and, if not organized, on the same page about the importance of speaking up and making our views heard.  This is definitely part of the solution, which is why I don’t bow to the pressure to offer a special respect to people’s beliefs, which of course is an exercise in submission and humiliation because I don’t actually have any respect for religious beliefs.  People, of course.  I can respect good religious people despite their religion.  But without playing the phony game of pretending to agree to the social rule that religion gets all these special respects is political poison that science can’t afford.  How to bridge that gap?

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 11:31 PM • (171) Comments

And here I thought you believed in the disco ball…

Seriously, I just finished the book, and it was interesting (and I know a couple people quoted/referenced therein.)  Keep on reading.

Comment #1: James  on  07/09  at  11:41 PM

Definitely.  One thing that’s already surprising me is he’s more sympathetic towards religious people than I would have suspected.  I mean, I already knew that most of the hysteria about what a hater he is was bullshit being flung by people who don’t want their beliefs and especially the power over others those beliefs given them challenged.  But I expected more disdain than I’m getting here.  It’s clear to him and to me that the biggest victims of belief are believers themselves.  Which is why the number one reason I sympathize with believers is the tribal identity they get from their beliefs.  And to my big surprise, that seems to be Dawkins’ sympathy point, too.  The atheist who gets into the rituals because community is important is a sympathetic character.  In America, at least, this phenomenon has gotten to the point that I think Jewish atheism is, by itself, a phenomenon that should be studied in depth.

Comment #2: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/09  at  11:56 PM

This is definitely part of the solution, which is why I don’t bow to the pressure to offer a special respect to people’s beliefs, which of course is an exercise in submission and humiliation because I don’t actually have any respect for religious beliefs.  People, of course.  I can respect good religious people despite their religion.

See, though, here you’ve violated one of the most basic social rules in American life—you must “respect” religious beliefs because they, by definition, are good and make one a better person.  By stating that “God says so” is a worthless political argument, you are engaging in the most vile of politics. By stating that religious beliefs aren’t worthy of respect because they’re religious, you’re making one of the most grievous insults. 

That’s really how it’s taken in major swaths of this nation.  “God says” or “God wants” are worthless arguments (unless one of you can magically prove that your God exists and wants what you want and not what other people who believe in that same god but want something different and say that their god also wants what they want….but I’m not holding my breath)

Sure, in spaces like this it’s relatively easy to say things like this.  But when I say something like, “I don’t grant religious belief any inherent respect” to a friend (from a conversation about how often religious beliefs get acting out by shitting on women) and she hasn’t spoken to me in a month and a half.

Comment #3: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/09  at  11:57 PM

It’s why I get so annoyed by people who want to claim that my criticisms of Catholicism are “anti-Catholic” or “bigotry”.  Define “Catholic”.  I am anti-Catholic church power, yes.  But I see myself as pro-Catholic people, and anti the fucking church that demands that they choose between the afterlife or taking care of their family by keeping it to reasonable size on the earth that actually exists.

Comment #4: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/09  at  11:59 PM

I think the theists are the ones who have to bridge the gap. It’s not even a question of throwing the responsability to them, I don’t think we can do it for them. The only thing we can do is not censure ourselves, not hide our lack of believes and then hope theists snap out of it.

Maybe poking ridicule at religion helps a bit if it establishes a culture where it’s ok to make fun of religious beliefs. This way you get less collective freak outs when you say the Sun revolves around the Earth.

Comment #5: Sirkowski  on  07/10  at  12:06 AM

You end up sitting next to people who read the Bible on planes?  I’ve literally never had that happen, and I’ve flown mainly back in the south.

Bibles on buses, bibles at the DMV, bibles everywhere.  I just thought people flying planes were less likely to believe someone was in the sky watching them.

I don’t know why it’s so surprising.  But good job making them uncomfortable, anyway.  I went to a tiny undergrad and ended up being the go-to atheist for my friends that were starting to question what they’d grown up with.  Question #1 was consistently, “How do you get through the day?”  It was actually kinda fun to explain that life, without a guiding force, is pretty nice all on its own.

Comment #6: Ferox  on  07/10  at  12:08 AM

See, though, here you’ve violated one of the most basic social rules in American life—you must “respect” religious beliefs because they, by definition, are good and make one a better person.

I’ve always understood, and granted I’m atypical so maybe I’m just wrong here or looking at it the wrong way, that it’s important to respect people’s religious beliefs in more of a “live and let live” sense.  Rather than “you should respect people who have religious beliefs, because Faith is a virtue”, it’s more like “let people think what they want unless it actively causes harm to others”. 

Which I think is part of why I’m so deeply annoyed by the whole I Am Atheist, Hear Me Roar b.s.  Seriously, how is it hurting you if someone does not agree with you 100% about everything all the time?  OK, yeah, obviously you can argue that fundamentalist religion is harmful to society, and there I’d agree.  Except that “fundamentalism” and “religion” are not even vaguely equivalent.

Comment #7: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  12:08 AM

Considering that the vast majority of scientists are atheists in one sense or another…

I’m not sure what you’re basing this statement on, but it is, in my experience, not true. On one hand, you can point to members of the National Academy of Sciences being overwhelmingly non-religious and/or atheists, but members of the NAS make up an elite fraction of all scientists, and the same low rates of disbelief probably hold true for elite humanists or members of the National Academy of Engineering. But the rank-and-file academic scientists, even if they lack a belief in God in greater numbers than the general population, are a diverse group.

If you look at page 25 of this survey on faculty beliefs, you find that in core academic subjects of humanities, social sciences, and hard sciences, majorities in all three disciplines have some kind of belief in God, with the plurality believing in a personal God.

As to why even nonbelievers are reluctant to pick a fight over religion, it’s probably because a majority of believers are pretty accepting of real science, so there seems to be little point to doing so. The majority of believers tend to be deferential to science, so there seems to be little reason for nonbelievers to raise a red flag over what amounts to a difference in personal spiritual opinion (and I hate to conceive of belief or unbelief regarding religion as a simple matter of “opinion,” but most of the American public is content to treat it that way, mostly so we didn’t end up like the religious mess that was 16th-19th century Europe).

Comment #8: Tyro  on  07/10  at  12:10 AM

Does everyone see the same google ads at the bottom of the post?

Do You Believe in God?
Commit Your Life to Christ. Learn About The 4 Steps to God

and

Choosing a religion.
Which religion should I choose to believe in?

That’s funnier and more insightful than anything I would add other than to say that I, too, read the book on a flight back to the US.  I’ve been living out of the US for over a year, and it was my first trip back.  I thought the glares from the midwesterners in the airport were an appropriate “welcome home.”

I found myself thinking particular issue about this often since reading it as I have many intelligent religious friends.  And I want them to understand evolution and science and how important these things are, but I know they’ll never give up their religion.  So, how can I convince them of the science side without offending them so greatly that they’ll stop listening to me?  Dawkins suggestion to be unapologetic isn’t going to work on individuals even though it may eventually influence the national dialog in a positive manner.  The best I can hope for with them is that I convince them to give up a literal reading of the bible.  If they want to believe in their salvation and all that jazz, fine, so long as they quit getting in the way of science.  They’ll never turn atheist, and if you admit it’s a possibility, they’ll stop listening to the rest of what you say.

Comment #9: sus  on  07/10  at  12:12 AM

I’ve read the God Delusion, and the thing is, I really so did want to like it ... I really, really did. I mean, for one thing, I’m atheist, and for another, I’ve heard Dawkins speak, and he’s excellent.

I couldn’t stand that book. Seriously, I hated it.

I mean, not only did it almost make me feel sympathy for religious people, it was BAD social analysis. Really, an entire section on the possible social reasons for the existence of religion and NO mention of Sociology? I mean, seriously?!

Dawkins may be an excellent public speaker, and scientist, but as a social scientist, in that book, he SUCKED. Any prescriptions he then suggested I disregarded, given the flaws in his premises.

I was VERY disappointed.

Comment #10: Sarah in Chicago  on  07/10  at  12:12 AM

Which I think is part of why I’m so deeply annoyed by the whole I Am Atheist, Hear Me Roar b.s.  Seriously, how is it hurting you if someone does not agree with you 100% about everything all the time?

Part of it, as Amanda noted, is to make it easier for others who are atheists to say so.  We are the most disliked social group in America. People consider us to be immoral and untrustworthy. More people say they would vote for an openly gay person than an open atheist. Part of it is simply saying, “Hey, you’re not the only one who thinks this is all a load of bunk.”

But saying something is bunk, be it Roman Catholicism or crystals, is simply out of bounds.

Comment #11: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/10  at  12:13 AM

What a coincidence, I’m just finishing the book!  I agree with your assessment though i did snooze a bit in a later chapter about memes.  Of course i really liked the analogy of coming out as an atheists with coming out as gay.  I also really enjoyed Dawkins’ sincere yet ironic attitude of loving the sinner(the deluded theist) but hating the sin(theism).

Comment #12: pablo  on  07/10  at  12:16 AM

I was not impressed with Dawkins’ book because of a number of mistakes or oversimplifications he made about religion generally and Christianity in particular.  More importantly, he seems to make the common mistake of equating religious with “faith/belief.”  Religion is largely about community and practice, with beliefs being important to a large fraction of religious traditions but not all and not all equally.

Example:  while different Jewish traditions have sets of beliefs that are important, Jewish identity and community focus more on practice and custom and kinship than on creedal disputes.

Comment #13: Crablaw  on  07/10  at  12:20 AM

Seriously, how is it hurting you if someone does not agree with you 100% about everything all the time?  OK, yeah, obviously you can argue that fundamentalist religion is harmful to society, and there I’d agree.  Except that “fundamentalism” and “religion” are not even vaguely equivalent.

Some of us are of the opinion that magical thinking in general is harmful to society.

Comment #14: Cain  on  07/10  at  12:21 AM

I just started reading this too.  So far I rather enjoy it, particularly because it picks at the scab that I struggle with as a biology professor.  I do believe that science and religion can co-exist (more on that in a minute).  But for example, if someone is a Biblical Literalist, then there is undeniably a conflict, no way around it.  I do believe that Dawkins is right, that when religious actions tries to invade and misuse science, it must be fought at every turn.  Perhaps also it is necessary to quite simply call out these forms of religion as flat out wrong and not be afraid to say so.  On this, Dawkins is 100% correct.

Dawkins quibbles for a length about the probability of supernatural existence as most certainly not 50/50, as might be the conclusion you get from Gould’s non-overlapping magisteria.  He is right, but that to me is not relevant.  Like it or not, religion plays a huge role in this society.  While we should strike back at those that would inflict their beliefs (“God says so”) on the rest of us in the public sphere, there is a value in gathering together, supporting one another, taking on the concerns of others, and seeking to be servants of the community.  Does religion always work this way?  Most certainly not.  “Servants of the community” means very different things to people.  Do these gatherings need to be religious?  Nope.  But if that’s what it takes to build a community for some people, I accept that, whether or not their deity exists.  You can tell people you think they are wrong without calling them ignoramuses, while still embracing ritual and social interaction.

Comment #15: M  on  07/10  at  12:22 AM

Opop, I strongly disagree with the “it’s not hurting anyone” argument, which is actually, it turns out, the basis of Pascal’s Wager.  The wager argues that since belief has no costs real or possible, but non-belief could have a real cost post-death, just believe to hedge your bets.  The glaring flaw is that no matter how “non-fundie” your beliefs are, there is a personal cost attached, whether you like it or not.  As I brought up in the class where I was first presented with Pascal’s Wager (which made me more atheist, because I was like, “Is that all they got?!”), religious people have restrictions put on their behavior they might not have as atheists, even if it’s as small as feeling guilty about fucking or going to church on Sunday.  But even if you whittle it down to just basic belief, the cost to you is that you’ve crippled your thinking. You’ve inserted a crutch, a shield against taking on the world as is.  You let lies fill in the blanks. 

The real wager is not that at all.  The wager is that atheism has artificial social costs built in so that you have to weigh them against the costs of being a believer.  Writing and discussing and publicizing atheism is so threatening because it reduces social costs for being an atheists, and artificial social costs, i.e. coercion, is how society keeps religion alive and squelches atheism.

I don’t aggressively argue with believers, I promise.  That’s the fallacy in saying “I Am Atheist, Hear Me Roar”.  Merely by saying that you’re an atheist and working out the whys in a suitable public area like a blog post is enough to be considered fucking pushy, because it reduces said social costs and does present real threats.  I had a friend once who suggested that we actually get dressed up on weekends and knock on doors to highlight the special, undeserved respect religion gets.  Religious people have to wake you up on the weekends before their pushiness is considered over the line.  Atheists just have to write books or blogs.

Comment #16: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/10  at  12:26 AM

to make it easier for others who are atheists to say so.

I guess I just don’t see a conflict between respecting both religious people and atheists.  Why do you have to be completely hostile and disrespectful in order to make atheism more visible and acceptable to others?  I mean, isn’t that just a surefire way to get theists thinking you’re an arrogant prick?  It doesn’t seem like open disrespect would necessarily endear you to all these people who supposedly hate atheists more than any other group.

Not to mention that if religion is just an opinion or set of ideas that a person can either reject or accept, and not an identity to be discriminated against, then why is it important that atheists get some special level of visibility that Catholics or Muslims or Buddhists do not, by atheists’ own logic, deserve?

Comment #17: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  12:27 AM

Crablaw, it appears you didn’t read the book, because Dawkins goes to great lengths to single out people who participate in tribal rituals but are atheists as different than people who actually believe the hype.

Comment #18: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/10  at  12:28 AM

I’m an atheist/agnostic, but I don’t think science undermines all religions. Here are two that run the gamut a bit:

Deists—ok they’re almost atheists, believing in a god that constructed the universe and then has no involvement in the daily affairs of it;

Jesus—I think he would have no problem with science (I base this on the render unto Caesar ...). His beliefs didn’t really talk about how things happened, they dealt with: where life came from; how to live your life; what happens after death. Science really doesn’t get into this stuff (and Jesus really wasn’t big on the physical anyway), so why would he care about evolution or the big bang or ...

What science does, is make it so a god isn’t needed to explain things but doesn’t say there can’t be one. After all, science doesn’t really explain why we like the type of art we do (except in a very general way). Everyone believes in or likes things for no logical reason, so what?

What we do need to do is make sure religion doesn’t get pushed on anyone (for example, this faith-based push—I have no problem with religious groups getting money from the government if they follow the rules and do a good job, but why exactly does there need to be a special program for them?). And we definitely have to push back against the literalists (who obviously don’t really get Jesus’ message), religion needs to be separate from government. The basic reply to a question about how science and religion mix should be: they don’t—one looks at the physical and the other the spiritual. That will upset the literalists, but I think they are a minority even among the religious.

Comment #19: JohnL  on  07/10  at  12:28 AM

strongly disagree with the “it’s not hurting anyone” argument, which is actually, it turns out, the basis of Pascal’s Wager.

Which has what to do with anything?

I know you’re all into the kickin’ ass, takin’ names, and callin’ bullshit approach to life, but seriously, is it that hard to just say, “ok, you believe in something I don’t.  however, you’re not really hurting anybody by believing that.  and either way, it’s all make believe as far as I’m concerned”?  How is someone having a different opinion from you actively hurting you?

The glaring flaw is that no matter how “non-fundie” your beliefs are, there is a personal cost attached, whether you like it or not.

Maybe I don’t get exactly what you mean by ‘personal cost’, but how so?  Not all religions are proselytizing (most aren’t, actually).  Not all religions believe in an afterlife.  Not all religions believe that the only way to X Goal (salvation, heaven, nirvana, true happiness, whatever) is through their religion.  I would also add that pretty much zero religions officially believe that one MUST choose to pretend to believe even if one doesn’t, just on the off chance that it scores you afterlife points.  As far as I’m aware, that was Pascal’s conjecture, and not part of the New Testament.  So I don’t really see what it has to do with the legitimacy of belief in general—it’s just a rebuttal of Pascal.  If Richard Dawkins says “theists are poopoo heads”, does that make atheism wrong, just because someone said something blatantly stupid about it once?

Comment #20: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  12:35 AM

Which I think is part of why I’m so deeply annoyed by the whole I Am Atheist, Hear Me Roar b.s.  Seriously, how is it hurting you if someone does not agree with you 100% about everything all the time?  OK, yeah, obviously you can argue that fundamentalist religion is harmful to society, and there I’d agree.  Except that “fundamentalism” and “religion” are not even vaguely equivalent.

Opoponax, the problem is that the unwillingness to allow others to have different beliefs and remain unmolested is by FAR more of a theist trait than an atheist one. Sorry, but to me this kind of argument sounds more like “Atheist, shut up, you’re making me uncomfortable!” than it does like a legitimate grief with atheists. It’s always said completely without irony, too, which is funny when you consider the non-stop lip-service that religious and spiritual belief get - often far more intrusive and hurtful than atheists, who are, after all, a small minority. And vocal atheists are a small minority of all atheists. So, no, it’s not going to happen. Atheists that refuse to be afraid to speak up are EXACTLY what we need.

As for the alleged harmlessness of most religious thought, I just don’t buy it. First of all, irrational beliefs of all kinds are often hurtful, usually in small ways, sometimes in big ones. Even if a particular belief is entirely benign, clinging hopefully to silly beliefs strikes me as a sign that one’s rational training could be better. This hurts my confidence in the ability of people to recognize the right decision in important matters.

Second of all, how do you propose that we draw the line between good religious beliefs and bad religious beliefs? There is no reasonable criteria by which to do so when you’ve already thrown logic and reason out the window in the name of “faith.” And keep in mind that making that distinction based upon which beliefs cause harm to people and which don’t ceases to be relevant when you are dealing with belief in a life after death. It is all too easy for a fundamentalist to argue that what causes suffering now is for the better in the long run of eternity. Once you’ve gone there, how do you fight back? Well, you’ve got to use logic and reason, and the only intellectual platform you can reasonably work from in that case is one where we acknowledge that religion in all its forms is just a bunch of hooey. False. Fake. Meaningless. Trying to argue for reason with religion as a base is like trying to play tug-of-war on pool rafts. It just doesn’t work.

Comment #21: grolby  on  07/10  at  12:36 AM

Opoponax:

I’ve always understood, and granted I’m atypical so maybe I’m just wrong here or looking at it the wrong way, that it’s important to respect people’s religious beliefs in more of a “live and let live” sense. Rather than “you should respect people who have religious beliefs, because Faith is a virtue”, it’s more like “let people think what they want unless it actively causes harm to others”.

Insisting that one’s religious beliefs are inherently deserving of legally-mandated public deference is causing harm to others. And Jeff is exactly right: the insistence on such deference is a fundamental rule of American socio-political discourse.

Which I think is part of why I’m so deeply annoyed by the whole I Am Atheist, Hear Me Roar b.s. Seriously, how is it hurting you if someone does not agree with you 100% about everything all the time?

If it were just that simple, you might have a point. It doesn’t have a damn thing to do with “agreement,” and you know it. We’re talking about people who are openly attempting to use the law to force their very own personal religion down the throats of everyone else in the country, including you, and they’ve managed to convince a majority of Americans that this isn’t a direct and obvious violation of the First Amendment. You don’t need to be an atheist to see what’s wrong with that.

And to be blunt, I see precisely zero rhetorical difference between what you said and “what’s with all these uppity atheists who don’t know their proper place in society?” So yeah, to address your self-hedge, I think you’re looking at it pretty fucking wrong.

Comment #22: Dan, Grand High Emperor of Bananas Foster  on  07/10  at  12:42 AM

The glaring flaw is that no matter how “non-fundie” your beliefs are, there is a personal cost attached, whether you like it or not.

The personal costs you believe that people pay for their personal beliefs of whatever kind are, in fact, none of our business. Once you get to the point where you’re concerned about whether people who take Pascal’s Wager are hurting themselves and you feel you need to make them aware of and/or free them from this personal cost, you’re no different from the guy knocking on my door Saturday morning who wants to save my soul.

Comment #23: Tyro  on  07/10  at  12:46 AM

What science does, is make it so a god isn’t needed to explain things but doesn’t say there can’t be one. After all, science doesn’t really explain why we like the type of art we do (except in a very general way). Everyone believes in or likes things for no logical reason, so what?

Yes, lots of people like to try and reconcile science and religion in this way, including scientists. There’s a HUGE flaw with this argument, though: if God is not necessary to explain things, why believe in one? The only possible answer to that question is, “because I want to,” and that really just won’t do. “God isn’t necessary,” doesn’t mean that it’s perfectly reasonable to believe or disbelieve as it strikes your fancy. A carburetor isn’t necessary to explain the origin of the universe, or life, or the diversity of life on earth. Would you consider my belief in a celestial carburetor involved in these processes to be a simple matter of personal faith, reasonable and worth respecting? NO! You would think that such a belief was silly. Well, that’s God - the celestial carburetor.

Comment #24: grolby  on  07/10  at  12:48 AM

But even if you whittle it down to just basic belief, the cost to you is that you’ve crippled your thinking.

Again, ok, I get it, you’re Amanda Marcotte: Caller Of Bullshit.  But is it really that horrible to let someone continue believing something meaningless that you consider a lie?  At what point are you able to just live and let live?  I mean, I don’t believe in alien abduction, but at the same time, what can you do?  I’m not sure it would force me to lose all respect for someone who otherwise seemed alright.  My mom believes that Ouija boards and tarot cards and other occult gewgaws are not only real, but controlled by demons (though I have never gotten her to admit that she believes in demons in any other regard).  I still respect her.  She’s my mom.  What can you do?  Am I supposed to start a huge argument about it every time I see her?  Just the major holiday gatherings?  At a certain point, why bother?

Comment #25: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  12:50 AM

I’m starting to wonder, honestly.

This is why I’m such a proponent of secular government and the seperation of church and state. It’s a political winner, one that has managed to bring together atheists and theists of all creeds in realizing that any single religion being wedded to the government has historically been a very bad thing for anyone who was NOT a member of that order.

Unfortunately, the hard-core Christian influences on conservative debate in this country have pushed a mendacious set of arguments intended to demonize secularism as “State Atheism”, and push the idea that America is an inherently Christian* nation. ( *Fuzzy on the denomination, if rather specific in the interpretation. )

The problem is that a secular government is virtually indistinguishable from an Atheist government in the way it gathers information and develops it’s laws. The big difference of course is tolerance and acceptance of the range of beliefs of all citizens, rather than enforcing an official anti-religious doctrine, the way Communist nations did. The Right-wing propaganda machine is eager to blur the key differences between the words “Secular”, “Atheist”, “Communist” and “Stalinist”, and people might just be insecure enough to miss the key differences between those concepts, much the way they do between “Liberalism’ “Socialism” and “Communism”.

Personally, I think standing firm and fighting back on the importance of secularism as a way for all religious beliefs to enjoy the maximum freedom possible will be best for both government and for the secular endeavor of science.

Comment #26: Left_Wing_Fox  on  07/10  at  12:53 AM

We’re talking about people who are openly attempting to use the law to force their very own personal religion down the throats of everyone else in the country,

Uhh, we are?  I thought we were talking about ‘people who believe in god’, in general, of which Christian Dominionists (or even Christian Fundamentalists/Evangelicals who consider “spreading the good news” to be one of their personal responsibilities) are a rather tiny number.  If “atheist” = “person who is in favor of secularism”, then ok wow I guess I have to be an atheist now.  But if “atheist” means what it is generally understood to mean (some variation on not believing on any god, at all, period), then no, by no means are we only talking about Fundamentalist Christians, even in the USA.

Comment #27: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  12:54 AM

Grolby, because we are not rational—no one is. The ‘rational’/consciouos mind doesn’t even seem to be in control of many of our actions. Most of my daily beliefs/preferences are for irrational reasons (I like the Red Sox because I grew up in New England, I don’t like much classical music because my mother and older siblings didn’t, ....). We all believe in things for no good reason, so what’s the problem with believing in a god?
Ice cream is not necessary, so why eat it?

Comment #28: JohnL  on  07/10  at  12:56 AM

the insistence on such deference is a fundamental rule of American socio-political discourse.

There’s a reason for that. When religion was considered not merely a matter of personal preference/opinion, but rather a fundamental way of life that could only be fully realized by insistence on its power and hegemony over the public, it had a habit of causing riots and wars.

As it is, the political ideal has always been to give some kind of civic deference to “whatever it is that you may believe/feel.”

As the abortive Mitt Romney campaign shows, people might not vote for, or even like Mormons, but no one is going to publicly condemn them, and he gets a public pat on the head of, “I’m happy you’ve found something that has worked out for you and your family.”

You might feel—rightly—that some Christians aren’t holding up their part of the deal. However, following them down that path ruins the entire Enlightenment-era construct we tried to build for our civic life.

Comment #29: Tyro  on  07/10  at  01:00 AM

Yes, JohnL, we are irrational. So? Belief is categorically different from particular preferences. For example, liking the Red Sox doesn’t necessarily need rational justification (beyond “I feel good about where I’m from, and rooting for my local team makes me feel good, therefore…). Believing that the Red Sox are the best baseball team in the United States would be silly without some kind of solid empirical argument (a compilation of player stats, recently won series titles, etc). Not liking classical music because it just doesn’t tickle your fancy doesn’t have any connection to reason whatsoever. You like it or you don’t.

The point is that most of these aren’t beliefs that have any effect upon your way of thinking about the world. No one can make a rational argument for liking or not liking the Red Sox. You may have your reasons, but they are subjective. On the other hand, believing that God created the universe and guided the evolution of life on earth is (bluntly) stupid in the face of reams of empirical evidence that show no supernatural involvement whatsoever. I do hope that this distinction is clear?

In any case, you appear to be confusing rationality with strict necessity. Eating ice cream is perfectly rational. Why shouldn’t it be?

At the end of the day, we may not be essentially rational animals, but we DO have powerful cognitive tools that allow us to use reason. Admitting that we are fundamentally irrational is not an excuse for willful ignorance in the face of the evidence.

Comment #30: grolby  on  07/10  at  01:11 AM

Sorry, but to me this kind of argument sounds more like “Atheist, shut up, you’re making me uncomfortable!” than it does like a legitimate grief with atheists.

Come again?

I don’t really understand how my opinion that generally it’s best to let people believe whatever they want as long as it isn’t actively hurting anyone is the same as “Atheists, STFU!”

I think that talking about atheism and professing an a personal alignment with atheism is a-OK.  I think publishing books that promote atheism is just fine and dandy, and it’s fully possible that I’ll be bored in an airport someday and pick up a copy of The God Delusion.  I might even really enjoy it, though I have to say that virtually everything I’ve heard about it so far has led me to the conclusion that it’s mainly a pile of sophomoric bullshit (not atheism, but Dawkins’ approach and arguments in general).  I have to say that the idea of a biologist who thinks he’s a social scientist sets off my red flags, but certainly such people have a right to publish whatever wankery their editor sees fit to accept. 

I’m far from shutting anybody up on the matter.  I just don’t get why it’s necessary to argue specifically against religion, to try to convince believers to jump ship, or to go around insisting that Atheists Are Right And Theists Are Wrong.  It annoys me almost as much as religious proselytizing, to be honest, and my objections to it are identical.  If the state of your soul shouldn’t matter to an evangelical Christian, why should the state of an evangelical’s brain* matter to you?  I think an awful lot of people are stupid, but I try not to make a habit of going around and announcing it, because that sort of behavior would make me an asshole.  And while I’m not absolutely sure whether I want to participate in organized religion, I’m definitely sure I don’t want to be an asshole.

*I mean aside from when said brain is directly responsible for deliberately misinforming impressionable people, like school children or juries or panels of politicians trying to write legislation.

Comment #31: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  01:11 AM

The Opoponax, what do you mean by “let people believe?” Is there any social setting—family, close friends, bar buddies, blogosphere—in which it is appropriate to discuss one’s decision not to participate in religion? Is it always less appropriate than discussing one’s faith in religion? Although you may or may not apply equal standards here, I think Amanda is absolutely right when she says that athiests need to speak up because most people don’t.

Comment #32: jericho  on  07/10  at  01:24 AM

Opoponax:
I get what you’re saying.  I’m a hardcore atheist, my parents are hardcore Christians - when I go home for the holidays I don’t try to convert them to atheism, that would indee make me an asshole (I only wish I’d get the same consideration from them and my other Christian relatives, who try to shove religion down my throat every time I see/hear from them [including my birthday cards!], but I digress…).
The point I think Amanda was making is not that atheists should try to convert religions people, but that they should be more vocal about their own atheism, the way religious people are vocal about their beliefs.  What you refer to as “I am atheist, hear me roar” I see as just being upfront and honest about what you believe. 
Like, if you’re an “out and proud” gay person it doesn’t mean you’re out there trying to convert people to homosexuality.  And anecdotally: growing up in a devout Christian family and feeling no personal belief in God, I WISH there had been more out and proud atheists around.  As it was, I thought I was a complete freak for not believing what absolutely everyone else seemed to believe in so strongly.

Comment #33: Nico  on  07/10  at  01:31 AM

There are forms of religion untouched by science, so in that sense you can stick to the point that science and religion, in some general way, do not strictly contradict each other.  But the sciences, especially biology after Darwin, make it very hard to believe that there is any kind of force that makes things happen for a reason. Science doesn’t teach that the universe is unintelligible, but it does suggest that it makes no moral sense - there is no agency or divine providence that gives the universe a moral order. The book to read on this, if you care, is Philip Kitcher’s “Living With Darwin”.

Incidentally, (and Kitcher makes this point too) that it’s not just science that undermines people’s beliefs. For example, there is a long history - going back to medieval rabbis - of investigating the textual basis of the bible, and examining which parts belong to different authors, how they were edited and revised etc. When students get to college they are prepared to hear that science threatens religion, and they can often shrug it off. But the religious kids often get very upset to hear that the bible was written by a committee, or - another example - that the first Israelites were polytheists.

Comment #34: dominic  on  07/10  at  01:36 AM

I think that talking about atheism and professing an a personal alignment with atheism is a-OK.  I think publishing books that promote atheism is just fine and dandy…I just don’t get why it’s necessary to argue specifically against religion, to try to convince believers to jump ship, or to go around insisting that Atheists Are Right And Theists Are Wrong.  It annoys me almost as much as religious proselytizing, to be honest, and my objections to it are identical. 

It’s hard to talk about atheism and why you’re an atheist without getting religious people’s backs up, whether or not you specifically say anything against religion. People get offended just by finding out that you’re an atheist, and you end up having to defend yourself whether you want to or not, which if you’re me you don’t because it’s a goddamned waste of time. Atheists didn’t get their reputation as difficult assholes by proselytizing, but by religious people projecting their own insecurities onto atheists. There are probably a few atheists who go around actively being assholes, but I think that’s a much, much smaller problem than their popular image suggests.

If the state of your soul shouldn’t matter to an evangelical Christian, why should the state of an evangelical’s brain* matter to you?

Because souls aren’t real and brains are. I can care about evangelicals’ brains in the sense of caring about humanity in general without ever needing to knock on an evangelical’s door and hand them a copy of The God Delusion. I would never even voluntarily enter an argument about religion with an evangelical, because I value my time and sanity much more than anything going on in their brains, and I’m fully aware of just what good I could do by saying anything. But I can still feel sorry for them from a distance.

Comment #35: junk science  on  07/10  at  01:55 AM

What about dinosaurs, evolution, or the big bang, logically contradicts me positing that there is some sort of omniscient, omnipresent, all powerful, and fundamentally good being beyond that part of reality which we exist?  Help my feeble mind out here, because I don’t see it.

Comment #36: Gavrie  on  07/10  at  02:08 AM

What about dinosaurs, evolution, or the big bang, logically contradicts me positing that there is some sort of omniscient, omnipresent, all powerful, and fundamentally good being beyond that part of reality which we exist?

Occam’s Razor.

Comment #37: pepito  on  07/10  at  02:16 AM

Thats a tough thing for me. I was raised Catholic and while I’m an Atheist now and have a deep and abiding distrust for organized religion, I really supported a lot of the things the churce itself did in my town. Coats in the winter, food bank/pantry, childchare etc. Hate the sin love the sinner?

Comment #38: dananddanica  on  07/10  at  02:19 AM

William of Ockham, ironically, a theist.

But still, Occam’s Razor is not a logical contradiction, but is a principle for building a theory, suggesting that (in a brilliant stroke of common sense) the simplest answer is often the right one.

This does not say that there is no God, or that God is a logical contradiction.

Comment #39: Gavrie  on  07/10  at  02:27 AM

I completely agree with The Opoponax here….especially when I have seen intolerance not only from fundamentalist Christians, but also militant atheists who happened to make up the majority of my undergrad campus’ student body and made uncalled for comments/taunts in/out of class which equated any religious belief with being of inferior intelligence and implied their own automatic intellectual superiority on the basis of their atheism.  Considering they were attending a college with strong progressive values of tolerance for the diversity of different races, genders, cultures, ideas, etc….and frequently paid lip service to them while pulling this elitist BS, they became nothing more than rank hypocrites in my book….no better than those Christian fundamentalists I’ve had to fend off before and after college.  The fact their conduct was such that nearly every religious classmate I knew felt the need to keep their faith on the down-low to avoid being harassed, taunted, or otherwise considered intellectually inferior mirrored the situations several atheist co-workers remembered having to deal with at more mainstream universities or religious higher-ed institutions. 

The fact that several of those atheistic “paragons of intellectual superiority” at my college managed to get themselves suspended/expelled for academic underperformance* while some of those religious classmates excelled with some graduating with honors in demanding majors such as neuroscience* added to the feelings of rank hypocrisy and elitist BS. 

Though I agree with Amanda’s and MAJeff’s point that atheists should speak out more about their beliefs, one can be open, frank, and firm about one’s beliefs without taking a page from the fundies’ handbook.  Unless I am mistaken, that’s all The Opoponax was really saying.

* Though my college was academically rigorous, one really had to fuck up academically to end up in this situation. 

** One of those “intellectually inferior” classmates is currently finishing up her Phd in Neuroscience at a certain private Ivy-level university at Palo Alto, California.

Comment #40: exholt  on  07/10  at  02:33 AM

Moreover, I cannot help, but notice that most of the arguments against religious belief are equating all religions with Christianity…especially the fundie kinds.  There are religious beliefs outside of Judaism, Christianity, and Islamic traditions…...and many of those may not necessarily be in conflict with evolution or science….

Comment #41: exholt  on  07/10  at  02:43 AM

I sprung for the hardback on Amazon.com and The God Delusion was my first real exposure to atheism (besides my friends in college who would just say they were atheists) and I liked it, I’m going to read God Is Not Great next once I have disposable income again:) Will be interesting to see if Amanda posts on it once she’s finished.

I can attest that as someone who’s not (yet) an atheist that growing up in the bible belt, whenever you said you were anything but Southern Baptist. When my mom revealed she (we) was Methodist to another person he got upset and told her he was sorry for her. I can’t imagine what he would have done had I said I wasn’t Christian. When you say you’re an atheist, religious people can take it as an attack, or, for the more weak minded, it makes them question themselves and their choices, which people don’t really like to do. It’s almost like how people react when you say you don’t want children, most will get very defensive, taking your decision as an attack on them some way some how even though it has nothing to do with them.

Comment #42: UltraMagnus  on  07/10  at  02:50 AM

Which I think is part of why I’m so deeply annoyed by the whole I Am Atheist, Hear Me Roar b.s. 

Really? Is it actively causing harm to somebody? Is it hurting you that atheists don’t agree with you 100% of the time? Sounds to me like you should learn to live and let live.

Comment #43: Dan  on  07/10  at  03:34 AM

This does not say that there is no God, or that God is a logical contradiction.

This “god” thingie is so enormous, complex, and significant that one would hope its believers had something better in proof than “nyaah nyaah, you can’t prove he’s not there!”

Comment #44: sunsin  on  07/10  at  04:03 AM

I’m going to read God Is Not Great next once I have disposable income again

Don’t waste your time. Dawkins’s book was terrific. Hitchens is the kind of atheist who makes me wish he weren’t so loud about it because he truly is ill-informed and rude because he gets off on it.

Comment #45: Incertus, Nacho Daddy  on  07/10  at  04:03 AM

The problem with believing in an benevolent all-powerful god is that the evidence tends to contradict it, so long as we assume the benevolence is directed towards us humans.

J.B.S. Haldane quipped that God seemed to have an inordinate fondness for beetles, and he may have had it right: perhaps human deficiencies, from the lousy design of our bodies to our propensity for internecine slaughter, are intended to benefit His favored insect order.

Comment #46: bad Jim  on  07/10  at  04:25 AM

I completely agree with The Opoponax here….especially when I have seen intolerance not only from fundamentalist Christians, but also militant atheists who happened to make up the majority of my undergrad campus’ student body and made uncalled for comments/taunts in/out of class which equated any religious belief with being of inferior intelligence and implied their own automatic intellectual superiority on the basis of their atheism.

This.

Given, I think this problem may come largely from younger people who are still a bit unsure in their own atheism. “I’m right! No, no, I’m right! I have to be right because I’m smarter/more moral/better than you are!” generally comes in when people are doubting their own beliefs a little.  At least that’s what it seemed like in highschool where I was sandwiched between the militant atheists and the evangelical christians. Both sides are a large part of the reason I identify as agnostic today.  Of course, there are people who feel the need to broadcast their superiority complexes to the world in all walks of life, so YMMV.

Comment #47: luzzleanne  on  07/10  at  04:28 AM

Our founders, a great many of whom* were in a certain sense Unitarian, thought that religion was something that benefited the public, in that it inclined them to be good citizens. In that respect they tended not to distinguish between Christianity, Islam, Judaism or Hinduism. Back in those days the popular concept of atheism entailed not only disbelief in deities but a rejection of morality, and it’s possible that most of the modern antipathy has the same basis, the suspicion, voiced by Dostoevsky’s character Ivan Karamazov, that without God anything is permissible.

It is the duty of all atheists to reveal to the world that most of us actually lead lives which, though unusually fulfilling, are fairly conventional and too often rather boring, pretty much the same lives as the average pagan, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, Jew or Christian. Perhaps less time spent in ritual.

*Franklin, Adams and Jefferson for sure, all friends of the chemist Joseph Priestley, but likely also Washington, Madison and Hamilton.

Comment #48: bad Jim  on  07/10  at  05:03 AM

Amanda - yes, I read the book, including where he talks about tribe, about the non-religious in the “pews.”  I don’t have a copy handy (borrowed from library) for the money quote where he makes a very narrow and historically unnuanced reading of the doctrine of original sin that made me blink three times, so I guess I lose the debate.

Dawkins touched little, and I think almost not at all, about the religious TRADITIONS that don’t emphasize specifically creedal adherence, as opposed to the folks who in every creedal tradition go along and get along for the cake and coffee after the service.

Comment #49: Crablaw  on  07/10  at  05:17 AM

Moreover, I cannot help, but notice that most of the arguments against religious belief are equating all religions with Christianity…especially the fundie kinds.  There are religious beliefs outside of Judaism, Christianity, and Islamic traditions…...and many of those may not necessarily be in conflict with evolution or science….

I’m in the middle of writing a book review, so I can’t say too much right now, but I wanted to highlight exholt’s point here, because it’s something I’ve noticed myself.

The problem with equating religion with Christianity (and actually, a particular subset of Christian belief) in these kinds of discussions is that it leaves out so much religious/spiritual practice across so many cultures.  And that’s the rub, really:  if you’re going to take on religion writ large, are you prepared to do so in the context of all cultures?  If so, well, you do run the risk of doing some profoundly unprogressive things, especially in the context of cultures who have employed religious/spiritual belief as part of empowering themselves in the face of such things as colonialism, white supremacy, etc.

Let me say, by way of clarification, that I myself am an atheist.  I’m not in any way defending the excesses of religious fervor, and I do agree that being an atheist openly does have social costs that aren’t warranted.  What I am saying is that religion is sometimes bound up with other social and cultural issues and that should be recognized.

Comment #50: Linnaeus  on  07/10  at  06:52 AM

Which I think is part of why I’m so deeply annoyed by the whole I Am Atheist, Hear Me Roar b.s.  Seriously, how is it hurting you if someone does not agree with you 100% about everything all the time?

Nice line of auto-refutation you’ve got there.

Comment #51: Dunc  on  07/10  at  07:44 AM

Am I supposed to start a huge argument about it every time I see her?  Just the major holiday gatherings?  At a certain point, why bother?

Never heard any of these before.  Apparently, these are the only ways atheists are capable of interacting with other human beings.

Comment #52: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/10  at  08:16 AM

The problem with equating religion with Christianity (and actually, a particular subset of Christian belief) in these kinds of discussions is that it leaves out so much religious/spiritual practice across so many cultures.

I agree 100%.  That’s why I think we should single out the Southern Baptists specifically as the religion that is completely wrong and harmful to the American way of life.  Then we can watch with glee as the Catholics, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. jump in to battle it out against the SBC.  Maybe we could even arm them and let them relive the literal religious battles that allegedly prompted the original colonists to leave England.

I kid, but not by much.

Comment #53: KL  on  07/10  at  08:20 AM

When it comes to theology, nuance usually ends up with bad conclusions I find. You need to ignore the ruleslawyering and instead take a look at what the culture/society at large thinks about the theology and talk about that. Because that, not what some legalistic argument about religious text, is what is important.

One thing that I think Dawkins should have gone into more depth about is the meaning of God. One problem I find is that people hide their spirituality behind their religion. They don’t actually talk about WHAT they believe. It’s very vague terms. And given that “God” really does have a specific meaning, I’d argue that it’s a VERY sizable chunk of “religious folks” are actually atheist. They don’t believe in God as a sort of intelligent construct. They may see it as an emotional force or something equally vague.

I can’t fault Dawkins for that (or very much really), as like I said, nobody really talks about this stuff in the first place.

What has to be realized however, is that the “God feeling” is real. Doesn’t mean that God by their definition exists, but their experience is real. God is catharsis, one of the most powerful unknown emotions that we have. In fact, I’d argue that catharsis runs everything behind the scenes. It’s behind everything we do. And there’s nothing supernatural or unscientific about that. And some people call it “God” so be it. They’re wrong, but not in a dangerous way. But because nobody ever TALKS about it, it’s impossible to see it.

Comment #54: Karmakin  on  07/10  at  08:27 AM

First of all, reading it on planes causes the inevitable Bible reader next to you discomfort.

Reading it anywhere causes that.  You should have seen the hateful looks I got on the subway, just for reading a book.  Maybe I should have gone up to them, physically shoved the book in their faces, and screamed, “Your whole worldview is a lie, and you’re stupid and worthless” like a good “in-your-face-atheist,” but I just sat there and read my book.

Comment #55: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/10  at  08:51 AM

”...but I just sat there and read my book.”

...quietly radiating Atheist-Rays which sap the religiously-enforced moral strength of all around you until the basic human contract evaporates and people become savage animals…

Jeff - why are you such a hater?...

smile

Comment #56: MikeEss  on  07/10  at  10:04 AM

Re: Sitting on planes next to Bible-readers.

This is like 50% of my flights, the person reading the Bible or some inspirational Bible-based literature.  The guy sitting next to me on the way home was reading stuff like that, and then he had to quit because he clearly had one of those violent sinus headaches you get on planes.  I wanted to say something, but I’ve had those, and really you don’t want people talking to you.  You don’t want much, really, except for your head to collapse in on itself and put you out of your misery.

Off digression.

Comment #57: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/10  at  10:10 AM

Hello everyone.  Visiting from Eschaton and what do I find but one of my favorite arguments going on.  I think it is safe to say that the majority of discussion concerning religious beliefs centers on Christianity precisely because most of us discussing this come from a culture where that is the dominant religion, that’s all.  Atheists who live in cultures where professing atheism is an actual crime are not likely to be chatting here at this time.  I think it is clear that the major objection from a policy standpoint is not that the beliefs are silly or unscientific, but that they cause harm to other people through denial of equal rights.  Most obviously in the zeitgeist of late is GLBT rights.  Religious insistence that these people be denied the same rights as others is not limited to the beliefs and personal practices and lives of the theists, it is actively being pursued as public policy which infringes upon the rights of free association of other people.  If you think God spoke and formed the seas and divided the land and I think a series of comets brought water to the young planet, it is just a game to split the difference and try to argue that God spoke by bringing comets ... this isn’t where the problem is.  There is no obvious harm in bandying about concepts like this.  The harm comes when other people are ruled, by reason of religious doctrine or thought, to be less than other people and subject to persecution.  There is where this goes beyond what someone believes personally and there is where the principled atheist must stand and say to the theists that the matter is no longer one of personal belief, or faith, or taste, but that we are now engaged in the real lives of real people in the here and now and the magical thinking must be put away.

Comment #58: catalexis  on  07/10  at  10:19 AM

Maybe I don’t get exactly what you mean by ‘personal cost’, but how so?

It’s true that it’s hard to measure the cost of hiding your head in lies, but I think it’s there.  And no matter how laid back the religious person, there are points that it causes grief, I’ve found.  Points where their attachment to lies comes face to face with cold, hard truths, and they suffer from massive cognitive dissonance, which I count as a form of personal cost. 

But really, so what?  The fact that religion is a lie should be reason enough to call it out, no?  I guess I am big on the truth.  I think that equating lies with truth fails to take into the equation all the new, valuable stuff we can learn if we set aside lies.  Certainly, Darwin went through a religion-rejection period to create evolutionary theory, even though he had a “harmless” religion.  The “they’re not hurting anyone, so leave them alone,” argument applies to psychics, homeopaths, and acunpuncturists, too, and it’s equally invalid.  They do actually hurt people, you’ll find with a bit of research.  And religion, well.  I hate to go there, but it’s worth pointing out that once you’re saying, “It doesn’t hurt anyone,” you’re referring to idealized form of religion that doesn’t exist in the world, one where people believe without having to do anything about it.  In the real world, belief is worthless without action.  Like Dawkins points out, there’s really no reason for a god you can’t pray to.  Or use as a club to get women, gays, and racial minorities in line.

Comment #59: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/10  at  10:19 AM

Also, religion comes at a personal cost to me.  Even the relatively harmless believers get to pull rank on me all the time and make me pray, which I hate with a searing passion.  I have no power to make them do anything.

Comment #60: Amanda Marcotte  on  07/10  at  10:21 AM

Also, religion comes at a personal cost to me.  Even the relatively harmless believers get to pull rank on me all the time and make me pray, which I hate with a searing passion.  I have no power to make them do anything.

You mean you don’t break out into shouts of “This is all delusional nonsense!”?  But, but, but….I thought you were an “in-your-face” atheist.

Comment #61: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/10  at  10:22 AM

It’s a problem of power; if atheism were the majority belief, then being a believer would also have social costs, and they would probably be regarded as untrustworthy or even insane—like atheists can be now.

As with feminism, many believers freak out about atheists because they’ve treated them so badly, and so when atheists demand equality, they instead picture atheists treating them as they were treated. Which, let’s face it, human nature being what it is? Would happen. Some atheists would persecute believers as an exercise in power, given the right circumstances. Atheism itself is not to blame for this, but assholery is not limited to religion, either.

I think what is most helpful is atheist argument that focuses on freedom (as in the freedom not to believe) rather than seeing belief as an evil that must be uprooted. There will likely always be some religious belief in any human society, however rational. It would be good if we could find an actual space to tolerate one another without seeing the other as either dangerous or mentally ill.

Comment #62: emjaybee  on  07/10  at  10:41 AM

“and frequently paid lip service to them while pulling this elitist BS”

What was ‘elitist’ about it? I hope you’re not using the rightwing idea of ‘elitism’ (what college professors believe/do) from the more traditional definition (what people who run the country, ie. Dick Cheney, think/do)

“Back in those days the popular concept of atheism entailed not only disbelief in deities but a rejection of morality, and it’s possible that most of the modern antipathy has the same basis, the suspicion, voiced by Dostoevsky’s character Ivan Karamazov, that without God anything is permissible.”

This has been my experience telling people I was an atheist. A smoking buddy of mine who was a Baptist but went to Catholic church, said something like, “But you don’t want to believe that so you can do anything bad” obviously coming from that view where the reason you’d become an atheist was to rape, rob and reeve without having to feel guilty.

Comment #63: witless chum  on  07/10  at  10:43 AM

Terry Eagleton’s review in the LRB pretty much summed it my problem with The God Delusion:

These are not just the views of an enraged atheist. They are the opinions of a readily identifiable kind of English middle-class liberal rationalist. Reading Dawkins, who occasionally writes as though ‘Thou still unravish’d bride of quietness’ is a mighty funny way to describe a Grecian urn, one can be reasonably certain that he would not be Europe’s greatest enthusiast for Foucault, psychoanalysis, agitprop, Dadaism, anarchism or separatist feminism. All of these phenomena, one imagines, would be as distasteful to his brisk, bloodless rationality as the virgin birth. Yet one can of course be an atheist and a fervent fan of them all…

There is a very English brand of common sense that believes mostly in what it can touch, weigh and taste, and The God Delusion springs from, among other places, that particular stable. At its most philistine and provincial, it makes Dick Cheney sound like Thomas Mann. The secular Ten Commandments that Dawkins commends to us, one of which advises us to enjoy our sex lives so long as they don’t damage others, are for the most part liberal platitudes. Dawkins quite rightly detests fundamentalists; but as far as I know his anti-religious diatribes have never been matched in his work by a critique of the global capitalism that generates the hatred, anxiety, insecurity and sense of humiliation that breed fundamentalism. Instead, as the obtuse media chatter has it, it’s all down to religion.

Dawkins makes polite nods to the idea that religion plays a large part in creating a Chartres cathedral or the Bach B-minor Mass, but he really doesn’t have a sense of the sublime, or the belief that abstract, non-scientific belief structures can be motivating in any valuable way. Or at least, he doesn’t convey that.

Comment #64: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/10  at  10:51 AM

Bach…therefore god exists.

Comment #65: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/10  at  10:54 AM

Have you heard of Nedra Pickler?  An AP ‘journalist’ whose shtick is to complain that while the object of her scorn may be correct on point A, said object of scorn did not address some completely unrelated point B.  Religion and it’s manifest harm did not, in any way, spring from global capitalism.  I am moved no less by well composed and played music than is a believer, granted I would not bother designing a cathedral but beauty is another concept of which theist have no right to claim sole ownership.

Comment #66: catalexis  on  07/10  at  11:05 AM

The Bach thing always gets to me. I LOVE Bach. Performing Bach motets on college choir tours was one of the great joys of this atheist’s life.

This past spring, I went to the Boston Symphony’s performance of Bach’s St. Matthew Passion over Easter weekend (c’mon, Haitink and Ian Bostridge?  Hells yeah I’m gonna hear that).  It was performed well—Bostridge was amazing—but the repulsive nature of the text was a bit overwhelming.  The guilt in the text of proclaiming an inborn evil as the reason for a man’s murder, and that murder as the only way to get rid of that evil….damn, that’s some repulsive shit, and it did take away from my enjoyment of the piece.

Comment #67: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/10  at  11:12 AM

The point I think Amanda was making is not that atheists should try to convert religions people, but that they should be more vocal about their own atheism, the way religious people are vocal about their beliefs.

Yeah, sink to their level.  That’ll show ‘em! 

Seriously, religious people who are overly vocal about their beliefs bug me.  I think spiritual stuff is a heavily personal and private issue, and unless you’re among friends shooting the breeze casually about your own personal beliefs on the matter (or talking privately with someone like a close friend or family member, lover, etc) I don’t really see a place for extensive talk about religion.  Just like I don’t want to be invited to some acquaintance’s church, be proselytized to on the subway, have Witnesses and Mormons knocking on my door, etc. I also don’t want some random person trying to convince me why my beliefs are WRONG!!!!1!1ELEVEN! from an atheist standpoint.  Especially particularly shitty and rude tactics like trying to convince me that because I’m pretty sure there’s something bigger than us or that the world is more than the sum of its parts, therefore I am some kind of superstitious Biblical Literalist fundamentalist whose beliefs are wholly incompatible with modern science. 

What you refer to as “I am atheist, hear me roar” I see as just being upfront and honest about what you believe.

Well then either you radically misunderstand, lack reading comprehension, or have no idea how obnoxious your idea of “being upfront” really is for other people in your life.  Again, no better than the time I found a memo on my dad’s fridge listing off tactics for “Spreading The Good News” at work.  When I told him how obnoxious that sort of thing seems to non-Christians, he had pretty much the same reaction as most of the atheists in this thread.

Like, if you’re an “out and proud” gay person it doesn’t mean you’re out there trying to convert people to homosexuality.  And anecdotally: growing up in a devout Christian family and feeling no personal belief in God, I WISH there had been more out and proud atheists around.  As it was, I thought I was a complete freak for not believing what absolutely everyone else seemed to believe in so strongly.

Except of course that atheists comparing themselves to out and proud gay people directly contradicts atheists’ own concept that religious belief is not a protected identity to be “out” about.  If it’s all just a matter of opinion, then who cares?  I didn’t choose to be queer.  I did, however, choose to a certain extent what my religious beliefs (or lack thereof) would be, and I certainly have the ability to choose to what degree I participate in open and/or organized religious practice, as well as how much of that to share with others in my life. 

The only similarity I see between “out” issues and atheism is that I feel that while it’s important for gay people to come out in the lower case sense and feel free to live their lives openly (and to an extent, show straight people that gay people are normal, and show younger or more closeted gay people that it’s possible to live a good life out of the closet), people who are obsessively OUT AND PROUD!!!1!!!!1111!!! can be kind of annoying.  Because I’m single right now, most people I don’t know very well probably don’t know that I’m queer, and on most levels I’m totally cool with that.  I don’t mind outing myself if it comes up, but, no, actually I don’t really talk about my sexual orientation with people I don’t know very well, and I’m OK with that, and I don’t think that makes me a closet case.

Comment #68: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  11:21 AM

Bach…therefore god exists.

I think pseudonymous was bypassing the entire brouhaha in the comments and commenting on Amanda’s actual article. I.e., the thing about beauty wasn’t so much a critique of atheism in general so much as a critique of Dawkins in this specific piece of writing.

Comment #69: luzzleanne  on  07/10  at  11:21 AM

Your faith is the cheapest thing in the world. Why not just give it away?

And don’t forget, if there really is a God, he might hate you unless you hedge your bets.

Pascal’s Wager r00lz!

Comment #70: atheist  on  07/10  at  11:35 AM

While I am rather live and let live in my personal life in regards to religion, and in fact I don’t consider myself an atheist—I am an agnostic, which in *practice* works out to be the same thing but which saves me from having to constantly justify a certainty in an absence of God, because I can always shrug and say “I told you, I’m an agnostic. I don’t know if there’s a god or not, and frankly, I don’t care”—I do believe atheists should be throwing more metaphorical bombs.

For instance, it is my belief that while some of the people who are all like “But without God, how can you have morality?” are just ignorant because they’ve been taught they need God for morality, in fact the belief that you need God for morality originates from the fact that some humans are broken, lack an inherent sense of morality, and need God for a crutch to supply them with a moral sense in much the same way that diabetics need insulin to supply them with the ability to process sugar. *Most* humans derive morality from internal base beliefs that are unrelated to religion, and I can prove it.

Consider this. How do we interpret the statement “God is good”? Is God good because there is an inherent quality of goodness in the universe, and God possesses this quality? If that’s true, then you don’t need God to explain the existence of goodness—it exists independent of God. Or, is God good because God defines goodness? If so, then whatever God says, is good. So when God says “kill all the enemies of the Israelites, except that you can rape the teenage girls and take them captive to make them your wives, thus repeatedly raping them and forcing them to bear your children”, that’s good. And when God says “stone witches to death”, that’s good. And when God says “you should kill people for mixing fabric types or eating pork”, that’s good. And when God says “you should fly an airplane into a really big American building and kill 3000 Americans”, that’s also good.

Now, most people will not accept that it is good to kill 3000 people because God told you so, or rape teenage girls because God told you so, or murder little baby boys because God told you so. These are the people who have inherent morality. When you tell them “But your own God says it’s okay!” and they say “Well, humans must have garbled the message, because my God is good and would never say to do such a thing,” those are the people who are fully functional human beings with an inborn moral sense.

The sociopaths need God. When you tell a sociopath “God says it’s okay to kill all those people,” a sociopath says “Okay! Where’s my gun?” Sociopaths *require* religion to provide them with a sense of morality. An atheistic sociopath will kill and rape without guilt; however, a religious sociopath will kill and rape without guilt provided that they can come up with a religious justification for doing so, and since most of our world religions are very very old and have plenty of built-in justifications for murder and rape, religious sociopaths aren’t actually slowed down a whole lot by religion.

The solution is that if we are to use religion to control the sociopaths, it must be a religion that has *no* justifications for murder, ever, *no* justifications for rape, ever, and *no* way to come up with such a justification. You can’t build such a religion on the skeleton of an old one. Jesus Christ tried; he came along, took Judaism and tried to say “You can never kill people, and you must always love others and treat them as you wish to be treated,” and in the process he created a religion that is one of the worst two in the world for killing, raping and generally harming others in the name of religion, and in my opinion he’s spinning in his grave, where he actually is, because his followers made up the whole resurrection story and in fact he was just a decent forward-looking guy, not a god.

I am honestly not sure it’s possible to come up with a religion that can truly control the sociopaths, actually. But the point is, it’s not atheism that’s amoral; humans are moral animals and atheists are slightly more likely to be naturally moral people, as they don’t seek out God to fill a lack of a moral center as people who are borderline sociopaths and don’t want to be might. Neither religion nor the lack of religion can compel moral behavior from sociopaths or inhibit moral behavior from truly moral people. Therefore religion has nothing to do with morality and religious people are no more likely, possibly less likely, to be moral than atheists.

“Religion is a crutch to give morality to sociopaths; the trouble is it doesn’t work very well” is a nice pithy soundbite version of this that I’d like to see atheists throw around more often.

Comment #71: Alara Rogers  on  07/10  at  11:36 AM

There is a very English brand of common sense that believes mostly in what it can touch, weigh and taste, and The God Delusion springs from, among other places, that particular stable.

This, in a nutshell (well, taking out “very English brand of”, because I’m an American and it’s not a particularly anti-British opinion) is the main problem I have with Dawkins and a great many atheists I’ve talked to.  It’s probably the main thing keeping me from taking atheism seriously, and definitely the major reason that, when I considered myself agnostic, I was always heavily on the theistic side and eventually decided that I think ‘something’ exists (not actually willing to use the word God because people tend to assume I’m identifying as a Christian or similar ‘person of the book’ who believes in a specifically yahweh-esque personal type of deity). 

Not so much “I like Bach, therefore God exists”, but “it seems impractical to simply refuse to believe in anything illogical, irrational, or which one cannot experience directly and pragmatically with one’s senses, because I can think of a million examples of things which definitely exist but cannot be experienced or understood in those terms.”

If atheism can be easily separated by philistinistic over-reliance on logic, I’d be happy to reconsider (or at least a lot more sympathetic to the idea in an abstract sense).

Comment #72: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  11:40 AM

separated from philistinistic over-reliance on logic, that is.

Comment #73: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  11:43 AM

This is like 50% of my flights, the person reading the Bible or some inspirational Bible-based literature.

Those of us to do not fly in and out of Texas airports all the time are unlikely to see this happen with the same frequency that you do. I suspect that is why people are a bit incredulous at your statement that you find yourself sitting next to Bible-readers on the airplane all the time.

Fly in or out of Phoenix, once, the person sitting a few seats from me was reading an Ann Coulter book, once. That was my only experience with “person reading visibly creepy stuff” on an airplane.

Comment #74: Tyro  on  07/10  at  11:45 AM

If atheism can be easily separated by philistinistic over-reliance on logic, I’d be happy to reconsider

How about atheism that springs from a bottomless, gently corrosive, long-abiding doubt in every certainty that people profess.

Comment #75: atheist  on  07/10  at  11:52 AM

The Opoponax: From my personal experience, I am no more able to force myself to believe in a deity than I am able to force myself to feel sexual attraction to the gender I’m not attracted to. I can choose to express my lack of religious belief in a manner I feel appropriate, as religious people can make that same choice.

Unless I’m catastrophically mis-reading you, your argument comes down too, “assholes are assholes”, with which I can agree. BUT… should I stop being honest about my lack of religious belief just because some others who also make the same claim are assholes? I refuse. Guess that makes me an asshole too. :D

Comment #76: Ab_Normal  on  07/10  at  11:53 AM

Thats a tough thing for me. I was raised Catholic and while I’m an Atheist now and have a deep and abiding distrust for organized religion, I really supported a lot of the things the churce itself did in my town. Coats in the winter, food bank/pantry, childchare etc. Hate the sin love the sinner?

I had a conversation with my liberal Christian friend about the lack of a support system in atheism. Churches do provide a lot of tangible outreach for their members (and often just members of their community in general). I proposed atheist “churches” that would meet on Saturday nights over drinks, biology texts and Monty Python DVDs.

Comment #77: Brandy  on  07/10  at  11:56 AM

From my personal experience, I am no more able to force myself to believe in a deity than I am able to force myself to feel sexual attraction to the gender I’m not attracted to. I can choose to express my lack of religious belief in a manner I feel appropriate, as religious people can make that same choice.

Well, OK.  But in that case you would have to afford the same respect to believers. 

Which kind of negates the whole “Religious People Are Stupid And Believe Lies” idea, as well as the idea that it is acceptable to openly disrespect or disapprove people with different religious beliefs than your own.  If belief is like sexual orientation or race or gender, an static identity that people can’t just up and decide to change, then it deserves the same protections as those identities do.  If belief is not a static identity like that, but something we can evaluate rationally and decide upon, then atheists deserve no more acceptance, visibility, or safe space than cigar aficionados.

Comment #78: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  12:07 PM

oh, the typos…  being at jury duty and constantly being distracted so I can listen for my name is annoying…

Comment #79: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  12:08 PM

I proposed atheist “churches” that would meet on Saturday nights over drinks, biology texts and Monty Python DVDs.

I thought those were Unitarian churches.

Comment #80: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/10  at  12:09 PM

Our Liturgy would be a bunch of Tom Lehrer tunes.

Comment #81: atheist  on  07/10  at  12:12 PM

I don’t get the problem here. An inclusive community can understand and debate (not belittle) a plethora of ideas while still respecting those who hold them. I can love and respect my crazy uncle at the same time as saying that I don’t believe him and think he’s talking out of both sides of his mouth. I’m incensed when funengelicals tell me what I can and cannot believe just as much as I am when atheists pipe in with the same. My beliefs don’t hurt anyone else as far as I have ever been able to see, and they certainly don’t hurt me.

I think that this debate doesn’t come down to whether religion or atheism is more acceptable, it really comes down to those who say “faith should be a private personal matter” and those who say “imma get up in your FACE with my belief system!” I obviously side with A, and evangelicals of any stripe seem to side with B.

Comment #82: kodiak  on  07/10  at  12:12 PM

One of the central ideas that Dawkins deals with, and what seems to be circulating here, is that the existence or lack thereof of a supernatural deity (being) is not an equal proposition.  That odds favor non-existence. Yet, as Amanda noted, even scientists feel pressured to grant equal odds.  When it comes to public discourse, existence is taken as far more likely.  The expectation is that one will “play along” with this, and questioning it is still apparently a despicable violation of social norms.  Questioning the favored position of belief, any belief, is being an asshole, by definition.

Comment #83: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/10  at  12:13 PM

The only similarity I see between “out” issues and atheism is that I feel that while it’s important for gay people to come out in the lower case sense and feel free to live their lives openly (and to an extent, show straight people that gay people are normal, and show younger or more closeted gay people that it’s possible to live a good life out of the closet), people who are obsessively OUT AND PROUD!!!1!!!!1111!!! can be kind of annoying.

But here’s the thing.  I don’t bring up my lack of belief generally.  Most people I know in real life are believers of some sort, and most of them are explicitly religious (as in organized religion, going to church/temple/whatever, etc., of the Christian, Jewish,  and Hindu variety) and of the ones that know that I am an atheist, that hasn’t been a problem.  However, I also don’t hide my lack of belief in a higher power or the fact that I find said higher power unnecessary to my daily life and that I don’t feel less than because I don’t have a spiritual component in my life.  If asked, I’ll answer the question honestly.  And that’s when it causes trouble.

I’m a substitute teacher by day and I can’t tell you how many other teachers, students, custodians, secretaries, etc., think I’m some kine of immoral asshole because I answered the question “where do you go to church?” with “I don’t.”  No explanation of my lack of belief or anything else, just “I don’t go to church” or “I’m not really a religious person”.  I’ll elaborate if asked, but generally I don’t because it isn’t really anyone’s business but my own and most people look at my like I’ve suddenly grown an extra head and possibly a forked tail and don’t want to continue the conversation.  And then, although nothing whatsoever else has changed, I get treated with a certain distance that wasn’t there before.

But, by being open about myself when asked, I’ve also had others come up to me after the conversation and in private and thank me for being open about my atheism.  Because now they don’t feel like they’re alone and if an obviously vanilla, kind of boring, relatively normal person like me can be matter of fact about it, then it gives them hope (and I’ll admit that mostly this happens with students—most adults don’t really need that sort of validation).

Comment #84: ks  on  07/10  at  12:15 PM

Opponax, maybe I was being a bit prolix in my comment at 10:52 AM. What I’m trying to say is, I think there may be sources of atheism above and beyond a focus on rationality.

Comment #85: atheist  on  07/10  at  12:16 PM

That’s a good way to do it ks. You are brave to put yourself out like that, even if it seems small. I’m not a teacher or anything, so nobody asks me those kinds of questions. I don’t know how I’d react if I were asked. I hope that I would react as you do.

Comment #86: atheist  on  07/10  at  12:22 PM

The Opoponax: Well, OK.  But in that case you would have to afford the same respect to believers.

Do you assume I don’t?

Comment #87: Ab_Normal  on  07/10  at  12:23 PM

ks, keep in mind that the habit of asking, “where to you go to church” to people you are not very close with is culturally/geographically limited. I’ve lived in various coastal cities, and no one asks this at all. But my friends who moved to the midwest or south come back discussing how weirded out they were that almost-strangers would ask them such a question.

This may answer the question Amanda and MAJeff have about why scientists, even unbelievers, are willing to pay so much deference to the existence of God: it’s because they work in a much more secular environment where not confronted with a lot of hostility from other believers on a regular basis. It’s not a competition for them, while if you grew up in the bible belt, non-believers are treated like a completely different tribe.

Comment #88: Tyro  on  07/10  at  12:24 PM

That odds favor non-existence. Yet, as Amanda noted, even scientists feel pressured to grant equal odds.

Odds.

Quite apart from what the odds actually are, or whether there could ever be a way to determine odds on the existence of a God, this rhetorical focus is really weird to me.

I mean, if you were God, don’t you think all this talk about odds and costs might strike you as rather insulting? As if your existence was going to be determined by futures transactions or something. Does the price of God go down when I sell short?

Comment #89: atheist  on  07/10  at  12:29 PM

Tyro,

I’m not confused. I grew up in rural Minnesota. In Mankato, it was easier to say “I’m gay” than “Honestly, I don’t believe in God.” 

My doctor, when he found out I was gay, asked if I was interested in attending his church, “a welcoming congregation.”  I know what it’s like to live in those areas, and within a religious family. Shit, my sister is an ordained minister who works as a hospital chaplain. I admire her work—caring for the sick and dying—even if I don’t so much care for the god-woo.  But the other thing is that she does what people want—if they want to chat about a childhood pet or pray, she does that.  I’m not out there screaming at her, confronting her at every opportunity. Shit, I don’t confront my family at all. They know, but I have to put up because I’m the only one.

Speaking of assholes oppoponax…how about those stereotypes about people like me? Us out and proud assholes who just blurt out and attack all the time just because people don’t agree with us?

I sat through my grandmother’s funeral, hearing both during the service and afterwards that atheists have meaningless lives. Yeah, I needed that shit at that moment.  But I’m the asshole for—in the public sphere—questioning the value of belief, particularly the elevated value it receives, and the idea that some supernatural being/thing/essence exists.

Comment #90: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/10  at  12:33 PM

If someone makes a claim and supports it with a god, the only way to argue against it is to argue that there are no gods. Arguing that, actually, God thinks something else will never get anywhere because there is no standard of evidence for what gods think, nor would it make any sense for an atheist to argue about the opinions of gods anyway. So, the only options are leave religious claims unchallenged, or challenge the premise on which they are based. You may only make an argument for atheism against certain religions, but those arguments will apply to all religions. That is, of course, where the problem comes in; that is why people simultaneously complain that Dawkins attacks all religions, even the harmless ones, but he also focuses only on the unsophisticated ones. He quite obviously can’t focus on all, but only certain ones. He spends most of his time talking about the most harmful kinds, but his arguments apply to any belief system that accepts conclusions without evidence (which is dangerous in and of itself, even if any individual has not reached dangerous conclusions. It is not good to encourage the idea that beliefs need not be supported by evidence).

Comment #91: Josh Spinks  on  07/10  at  12:40 PM

I can’t tell you how many other teachers, students, custodians, secretaries, etc., think I’m some kine of immoral asshole because I answered the question “where do you go to church?” with “I don’t.”

I’m with Tyro, here.  This may just be because I live in a major coastal city, but honestly most of the people I know in real life (excepting my family and old friends in the bible belt) do not openly practice any particular religion.  I don’t know which of my friends, coworkers, etc. is atheist, theist, “spiritual”, a member of a specific religion, etc. for the most part unless it comes up.  And even then, because the religion you were raised in or born into can still play a role in your life even if your beliefs change later, it’s hard to really know if your friend is taking a personal day for Passover because she is a practicing Jew, or just because it’s a big family gathering she’s expected to attend. 

Advice to all atheists who carry a chip on their shoulder from dealing with ubiquitous and obnoxious Christianity and/or active discrimination due to not practicing any particular organized religion:  move.  Seriously, if it’s really important to your quality of life, and there’s nothing holding you to the bible belt, there are a great many parts of the US where you will not face this sort of thing.

Comment #92: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  12:42 PM

I haven’t waded through the entire thread, but dittos to Opoponax.

I am a Wiccan. My religion does not have a “personal cost” to me that does not outweigh the personal benefits, like everything else to choose to do, including eating fatty food at Olive Garden and exercising even when I don’t feel like it. Everything has costs and benefits.

However, I do not believe that my religion has a personal cost on anyone else, Amanda. I do not force my religion on anyone else - I do not share unless asked, I do not try to convert, and I do not talk about (or pray) my religion and expect people to be polite and put up with it. I do not try to enact favorable legislation for myself - in fact, I do not think religious organizations should even be tax-exempt.

I love atheists (and all religionists) as long as they are polite and do not try to convert me or deride my beliefs. I own Dawkins’ God Delusion and look forward to reading it, I love Carrier’s Sense and Goodness, I own and love The God Who Wasn’t There, and I am convinced that the Golden Compass series are the best three fiction books ever written (thank god that the Catholic League brought my attention to their existence!). I also sport a FSM necklace when I’m in the mood. That doesn’t mean I don’t believe in my beliefs - I’m not an atheist - but it DOES mean that I support atheists and everyone else in their beliefs. I am not a “One True Way” religionist, and I think everyone should make up their own mind as to the path to follow. Whatever happens after death, I will not be treated more or less favorably than atheists, nor would I WANT to receive special treatment.

All this to say, some people with religion really aren’t hurting atheists. I know that a lot of Christians give atheists a rough time, but please remember that we’re not all bad, I swear. And some of us really do love science and reason. I ‘believe’ in evolution (I hate that word ‘believe’ as applied to evolution - I also ‘believe’ in gravity) and I am not threatened by science in any way. I hope that Dawkins continues to write unmolested, as I like his works. But please, try not to molest the ‘nice’ believers, too - we believe what we believe for deep, meaningful reasons, and it’s not just “sticking our heads in the sand”. We deserve a little bit of respect, just because we are thinking, reasoning humans - like you all! smile

Comment #93: Faye  on  07/10  at  01:06 PM

Nah, I choose to stay and “fight”, if by fight you mean providing an example of what it is to be an honest, polite non-believer. (I’m in the conservative half of Washington state; not as bad as some areas of the country, but still, my non-religious family is a decided minority.)

Comment #94: Ab_Normal  on  07/10  at  01:07 PM

let people think what they want unless it actively causes harm to others ... how is it hurting you if someone does not agree with you 100% about everything all the time?

As I’ve learned the hard way, it’s OK for people to be wrong, or put another way, it’s no skin off my back if someone wants to be willfully ignorant about something/everything. (Of course, this no longer applies when their ignorance impinges on my rights, or actively causes me harm.)

Comment #95: Stephen  on  07/10  at  01:09 PM

Advice to all atheists who carry a chip on their shoulder from dealing with ubiquitous and obnoxious Christianity and/or active discrimination due to not practicing any particular organized religion:  move

I’m in Chicago on the north side, which is mostly pretty easy for atheists (south might be a little harder). But really, it’s not always easy, or desirable, for people to leave their part of the country.

Of course, if your atheism is putting you in physical danger, then maybe you want to think about moving. But please don’t forget that lots of people are willing to put up with conflict in their lives, over religion, or politics, or whatever, and that can be a good decision too.

Comment #96: atheist  on  07/10  at  01:13 PM

Not so much “I like Bach, therefore God exists”, but “it seems impractical to simply refuse to believe in anything illogical, irrational, or which one cannot experience directly and pragmatically with one’s senses, because I can think of a million examples of things which definitely exist but cannot be experienced or understood in those terms.”

If it can’t be experienced or demonstrated in any way, how do you definitely know it exists? Can you give me an example so that I can better understand exactly what you mean by this?

Comment #97: Dunc  on  07/10  at  01:15 PM

Advice to all atheists who carry a chip on their shoulder from dealing with ubiquitous and obnoxious Christianity and/or active discrimination due to not practicing any particular organized religion:  move.  Seriously, if it’s really important to your quality of life, and there’s nothing holding you to the bible belt, there are a great many parts of the US where you will not face this sort of thing.

Is that your standard approach to all instances of geographically-localised discrimination - the victims should move?

Comment #98: Dunc  on  07/10  at  01:17 PM

Atheists who live in cultures where professing atheism is an actual crime are not likely to be chatting here at this time.

True, but there are also plenty of other countries who also have religious freedom….and those where atheism is the dominant state orthodoxy…..has anyone forgotten the Communist states such as Mainland China where the vast majority are atheists because the government does much to promote the atheism along Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist lines…and does much to encourage widespread social disapproval and even persecution of religious believers…even in the present time while supposedly paying lip service by having “state churches/temples”? 

The “they’re not hurting anyone, so leave them alone,” argument applies to psychics, homeopaths, and acunpuncturists, too, and it’s equally invalid.

Don’t know about the psychics or the homeopaths…but acupuncturists have gained enough scientific credibility that it is currently being studied and used at prominent University teaching hospitals such as those of Columbia and Cornell Universities.  Moreover, I cannot help, but notice a lot of the skepticisms against acupuncture are borne more of Eurocentric prejudices and stereotypes against non-Western medical procedures rather than any genuine scientific doubt.  In fact, those prejudices and stereotypes were one reason why acupuncture has only recently started to be studied in Western medical establishments such as the ones mentioned above. 

As with feminism, many believers freak out about atheists because they’ve treated them so badly, and so when atheists demand equality, they instead picture atheists treating them as they were treated. Which, let’s face it, human nature being what it is? Would happen. Some atheists would persecute believers as an exercise in power, given the right circumstances. Atheism itself is not to blame for this, but assholery is not limited to religion, either.

You know what’s really interesting…some of this did actually happen in recent history.  Just look at the widespread persecution of religious believers by the avowed atheistic Bolsheviks, Maoists, and many other regimes ruled along Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist lines.  Some of this persecution is still occurring to this very day as mainland China’s recent persecutions against Buddhists, Christians, and various Chinese folk religions have shown. 

Moreover, atheism may not be 100% to blame…but atheists do have the responsibility to acknowledge that some avowed atheists were involved in some of the the worst murderous brutalities of the 20th century…only exceeded in ferocious brutality by the Fascist Axis powers during the Second Sino-Japanese War/WWII.  It is the same sort of responsibility I expect Christians to acknowledge from their own religion’s bloody murderous history in events such as the Crusades and the role of Christianity and missionaries in aiding and abetting Western imperialism in non-Western societies, and the rise of European antisemitism, racism, and fascism. 

What was ‘elitist’ about it? I hope you’re not using the rightwing idea of ‘elitism’ (what college professors believe/do) from the more traditional definition (what people who run the country, ie. Dick Cheney, think/do)

It was elitist because the militant atheists who made up the majority of my undergrad’s student body openly stated that being an atheist automatically conferred intellectual superiority to classmates who subscribes to such beliefs whereas classmates who were religious or theists of any kind were intellectually inferior and thus, deserved all the mocking harassment they can render upon them. 

Moreover,  there was certainly a classist and even some racist factors involved as most of those campus majority militant atheist classmates tended to be socio-economically privileged suburban-raised students while most of the religious classmates with a few exceptions were POC working/middle-class scholarship students like myself. 

Furthermore, I can’t see how you can get more elitist with that form of self-proclaimed superiority.  Kind of ironic when several of them ended up being suspended and/or expelled for academic underperformance and thus, failing to live up to their own self-proclaimed BS.  Especially when several religious classmates graduated in great standing in spite of putting up with 4 years of harassing taunts and silencing…including one student who is finishing her PhD in Neuroscience at a topflight university out in Palo Alto, California.

Comment #99: exholt  on  07/10  at  01:38 PM

These are not just the views of an enraged atheist. They are the opinions of a readily identifiable kind of English middle-class liberal rationalist. Reading Dawkins, who occasionally writes as though ‘Thou still unravish’d bride of quietness’ is a mighty funny way to describe a Grecian urn, one can be reasonably certain that he would not be Europe’s greatest enthusiast for Foucault, psychoanalysis, agitprop, Dadaism, anarchism or separatist feminism. All of these phenomena, one imagines, would be as distasteful to his brisk, bloodless rationality as the virgin birth. Yet one can of course be an atheist and a fervent fan of them all…

WTF is this bullshit???

Comment #100: Sirkowski  on  07/10  at  01:38 PM

Just look at the widespread persecution of religious believers by the avowed atheistic Bolsheviks, Maoists, and many other regimes ruled along Marxist-Leninist-Stalinist-Maoist lines.

This is a common mistake, but none of those groups were actually atheists. They deified the power of the state and of the leader.

They simply substituted one religious belief for another. That’s why, for instance, after the fall of Communism in Russia, the Church was back like it had never left. Because it never had left; Russians never had a chance to get out of practice at religious belief. They had simply substituted one entirely religious belief for another; one that falsely adopted the mantle of rationalism and atheism.

Comment #101: Chet  on  07/10  at  01:56 PM

Furthermore, I can’t see how you can get more elitist with that form of self-proclaimed superiority.  Kind of ironic when several of them ended up being suspended and/or expelled for academic underperformance and thus, failing to live up to their own self-proclaimed BS.  Especially when several religious classmates graduated in great standing in spite of putting up with 4 years of harassing taunts and silencing…including one student who is finishing her PhD in Neuroscience at a topflight university out in Palo Alto, California.

You know, exholt, I’m sorry that you had some rude, arrogant atheists who acted like idiots in your undergraduate class. But I still don’t see how this makes atheism elitist. I don’t like rude assholes of any beliefs, or no beliefs, and I’m not sure how atheism itself is implicated in their actions, and more than Christianity is implicated by the actions of Eric Rudolph.

Comment #102: atheist  on  07/10  at  01:57 PM

This is a common mistake, but none of those groups were actually atheists. They deified the power of the state and of the leader.

Right or wrong, it’s never a good idea to go down the “This religious/atheist regime did bad things, so that religion/atheism is bad.” Whether there was a totalitarian, evil atheist regime at one point in history or another is pointless - a bad person or group of people will do bad things, regardless of whatever religion/atheism belief they use to justify it.

It’s the same reason why it’s a bad idea to argue evolution is ‘bad’ because of social Darwinism. It’s the same reason why it’s stupid that some people in Germany think it’s facist to say it’s nice to have lots of kids just because Hitler was in favor of large families.

A lot of bad things have been done in the name of Christianity. But that doesn’t mean that Christianity is necessarily evil or bad, nor does the lack of bad things done in the name of atheism mean that atheism is good. If it could be proved, conclusively, tomorrow that every evil person ever (including Hitler) was also an atheist, it wouldn’t make atheism any closer to being true or false and it wouldn’t make a random atheist on the street anymore likely to be a bad person. Same for Christianity.

So while I don’t hold truck with the “But Hitler was an atheist, too!” card, I think it’s an attempt to point out the fallacy in the “Christian governments are always bad, so Chistianity is bad!” argument.

Comment #103: Faye  on  07/10  at  02:18 PM

Ok, Opponox, you’re argument on this thread seemed to have gone from:

It is rude to be openly atheist, much like it is rude to evangelize.  Lots of people are religious, and it doesn’t hurt anybody, so we should just just shut up about it.

Then lots of people point out ways in which, yes, it does hurt us and them to believe in various religions.

You then made the claim that what we said wasn’t true, or we were exaggerating.

More people pointed out discrimination.

You then suggest that we should move from our homes, our friends, our family as our solution (even though, for a lot of us, that means cutting ourselves OFF from family, as they may be part of the discrimination), heavy on the implication that we are being overly sensitive “we had a chip on our shoulder”.

Um, apply this argument to ANY other social justice movement, and you’d be derided as a conservative.  Why does this suddenly work with lack of belief?

Comment #104: Antigone  on  07/10  at  02:20 PM

Delurking to say it isn’t just in the Bible belt.  I used to have a co-worker in an East coast blue state who was a very sweet if highly neurotic person and was even of a leftish soc-dem persuasion (except wrt church/state issues and anything remotely related to OMG TEH SECKS).  We had some nice conversations about neutral topics (eg. food, etc.), but every now and then she would feel obliged to tell me all about how demons lurked in household appliances, and that BJU has these great books about stuff (and she’s Catholic, so the BJU-love doesn’t even make sense !!!), and that Christianity is more uplifting and less superstitious (!!!) than other religions like Buddhism.  (Now, having grown up in the East, I haven’t any illusions about the absence of Buddhist superstitions like many people in the West seem to have; otoh, if you think that demons exist AND that they have nothing better to do than to hang out in household appliances and give you grief, well, yeah, pot/kettle, sorry.)  And these nuggets were completely random - I’d said/done nothing that could be seen as leading up to them.  It was like random Public Service Announcement Of The Day or something.

Now, I’m an atheist, and when I (very occasionally) post comments on blogs, I tend to be pretty outspoken - I would probably count as one of those in-your-face atheists, in this respect.  But you know what - my co-worker doesn’t know a thing about my religious persuasion or lack thereof.  (The closest I ever came to saying anything was declaring that I didn’t like irrationality in anything except in art*, but if she thinks Christianity is rational (heh) she mightn’t even have caught on.)  Why didn’t I say anything ? Because I don’t feel comfortable talking about these things in the workplace (if I knew her socially I might feel differently).  And there’s no question that I would have been called upon to justify myself, which would mean that I would have to point out, even if in the gentlest way possible that I think religion is a load of BS (which would of course make me an evil in-your-face atheist).

And would that even have helped ? I’m not even sure, since I think it should have been pretty clear to her from my reactions (uncomfortable silence, insincere rictus, attempts to change the subject) that this is not something I feel comfortable talking about.

Which brings me to the other fallacy in Opoponax’s claims - that talking about one’s atheism in a blog is equivalent to trumpeting your religion at work.  Nobody has to read blogs/blogcomments if it makes them feel uncomfortable - workplace is quite another thing.  But if I vent in a blog sympathetic to my views, I’m somehow just as bad as pushy religionists who talk about this stuff all the time in much less appropriate settings.  Sorry but that is pure “fair-and-balanced”-type BS.

*Yeah, I’m probably gonna catch some flack from people like Opoponax for being a heartless logic machine but you know what ? I think, after 26 years of constant fear and cognitive dissonance courtesy of a deeply religious upbringing (not xtian but not much less batty), I’ve pretty much earned the right to be a heartless logic machine if I so please.

Comment #105: Liane, mostly lurker  on  07/10  at  02:28 PM

I think spiritual stuff is a heavily personal and private issue

So what do you call it when someone’s “personal and private” religion leads them to vote “yes” on a referendum to strip civil rights from gays and lesbians? What do you call it when someone’s “personal and private” beliefs lead them to partake in mass murder against 3000 American citizens at the WTC?

If religion were limited to the personal and private, I don’t think any atheist would object. The problem is that nobody’s religion seems to be limited to the personal and the private; instead, people are allowing their religion, instead of facts and evidence, to dictate public policy on everything from whether young women should be vaccinated against disease to whether airplanes should land on runways or in skyscrapers.

Religion is dangerous simply because it convinces people that it’s ok to ignore overwhelming evidence. In a world where, increasingly, our individual safety is a function of large groups of people doing the rational thing, large groups of people ignoring rationality is a big problem. Enough people are going to do that, anyway. We don’t need something that encourages it.

Comment #106: Chet  on  07/10  at  02:33 PM

Don’t know about the psychics or the homeopaths…but acupuncturists have gained enough scientific credibility that it is currently being studied and used at prominent University teaching hospitals such as those of Columbia and Cornell Universities.  Moreover, I cannot help, but notice a lot of the skepticisms against acupuncture are borne more of Eurocentric prejudices and stereotypes against non-Western medical procedures rather than any genuine scientific doubt.  In fact, those prejudices and stereotypes were one reason why acupuncture has only recently started to be studied in Western medical establishments such as the ones mentioned above.

Sure, some universities are embracing this particular form of woo.  That doesn’t make it scientifically credible.  The scientific literature is mixed at best, with the most promising studies showing pain relief slightly above that of a placebo, and those studies show sham acupuncture works better than the real thing.  None of this shows acupuncture as better then more effective and less invasive forms of pain relief, nor are they evidence of a magical energy field.  If your active ingredient is magic, skepticism is warranted.

Furthermore, hospitals are pushing acupuncture and other alternative modalities not because of the scientific evidence but because of profit.  Alt. medicine is (rightly) not covered by insurance, so hospitals see in them a source of cash without the bureaucratic hassle.

Comment #107: Cain  on  07/10  at  02:36 PM

Right or wrong, it’s never a good idea to go down the “This religious/atheist regime did bad things, so that religion/atheism is bad.”

But it all stems from precisely the same thought process - “it’s ok to believe in things for which there is no evidence - or much evidence against.” That’s the thought process behind all religion, that’s the thought process behind the listed regimes. Whatever the crimes of Soviet Russia, none of them stemmed from an over-reliance on rational assessment of the evidence.

That’s why they were not atheist. And that’s the whole point - that’s the danger of religious belief, even your “personal and private” belief, even Wicca, even whatever. If you’re religious, you’ve decided that, in some circumstances, you can ignore the evidence - even the evidence of your own senses - in favor of wishful thinking. And once you’re in the habit of doing that, why should we expect you to stop? If you’ll believe in communing with the Mother Earth Spirit on the basis of no evidence, why won’t you believe that the Mother Earth Spirit wants you to kill capitalists on the basis of no evidence?

Once you’ve made a commitment to faith, you’ve identified as someone who can be motivated by things that are not only not true, but obviously not true. You’ll knowingly accept lies as truth. Why wouldn’t rational people consider you a potentially dangerous person?

It’s only because there’s a cultural taboo against referring to the religious as “deluded.” But that’s the precisely appropriate term.

Comment #108: Chet  on  07/10  at  02:47 PM

A lot of bad things have been done in the name of Christianity. But that doesn’t mean that Christianity is necessarily evil or bad, nor does the lack of bad things done in the name of atheism mean that atheism is good.

Sure - but the argument that Christians make is that Christianity in itself MAKES people good, so pointing out bad Christians refutes that. As I said in the other thread, atheism doesn’t make the same claim.

Comment #109: pepito  on  07/10  at  02:47 PM

Which brings me to the other fallacy in Opoponax’s claims - that talking about one’s atheism in a blog is equivalent to trumpeting your religion at work.

Which brings me to the part where I never said that, at all, in any way.

If you think I did, could you please quote me on that?

All I ever said was that I think it’s important to respect everyone’s beliefs (or lack thereof), not because Religion Is Important And Deserving Of Respect, but because the nice thing to do is to live and let live.  If you’re not willing to do that, if you want to be an asshole by going around and telling people they’re wrong and stupid and believe in obvious lies (something Amanda’s post and several early comments seem to advocate), you’re no better than the people who do the same thing in the name of religion.

I think it’s perfectly acceptable to write about these things in both books and blogs, stand up for your side of things when discussions arise organically, shout atheism from the rooftops if it makes you feel better about yourself. 

But when it goes beyond being true to yourself, or asking for the respect of others, or nonconfrontational “dialogue” like this particular discussion, when you start going around telling the people in your life to their faces that they are idiots and/or liars (something Amanda implied that atheists should be doing), well, that’s when you become a chump.  And no amount of whining about “visibility” and “safe space” makes you not one.

That’s it.  That’s all.  Nobody’s trying to take away your cookie. 

Jesus Fucking Christ…

Comment #110: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  03:09 PM

when you start going around telling the people in your life to their faces that they are idiots and/or liars (something Amanda implied that atheists should be doing), well, that’s when you become a chump.

And that’s where you’re disingenuously full of shit, Opp. Here, the part where you equate being told that one has misapprehended a fact of the universe with being told that one is an idiot or a liar.

The religious are not, generally, idiots or liars; they’re wrong. If someone can’t be told that they’re wrong without taking it personally, they’re the one with the problem.

Comment #111: Chet  on  07/10  at  03:15 PM

For people with the Creator of the Universe on their side, religious believers sure can be insecure sometimes.

Comment #112: Bitter Scribe  on  07/10  at  03:20 PM

But really, it’s not always easy, or desirable, for people to leave their part of the country.

Seriously, though, if the idea that people might not approve of your choices in life is so impossible to deal with, your best bet might be to try to find a place where you fit in a little better. 

I grew up in the deep south, in the middle of not only the ‘bible belt’, but the Louisiana Catholic hegemony.  I grew up with people who had never heard of any religion other than Catholicism, and thought that everyone who claimed not to be Catholic must be an atheist, which was about the worst possible thing in their minds that you could be (aside from a Satanist or a Witch, and yeah I got those, too).  Some of them even thought that such people should be compelled, by state-sponsored indoctrination if not by express legal mandate, to become Catholic (not just Christian, but Catholic).  Some thought that “Satanism” and “Witchcraft” should be punishable offenses. 

For a variety of reasons, not only religious ones, I realized at a young age that I was never going to fit in with these people, and if I spent my life living in South Louisiana, very few people would ever approve of anything I did.  I made a choice very early on that I would do everything in my power to leave and live somewhere else where my life wouldn’t be such a battleground.  Now I live 2000 miles from my entire family and the culture I was raised in (some of which is pretty nice, when you peel back the fundamentalism).  There are a lot of things I miss, and it’s sad knowing that I’ll only ever see my family twice a year for pretty much the rest of my life. 

But you know what?  If something is that important to you, you find a way to deal.  In hindsight, I probably could have made some kind of life for myself down there, and probably would have thrived in certain ways as the perpetual Black Sheep Of Town.  But I’m a lot happier not having been baited about religion for the last 8 or 9 years, and I’d be unlikely to ever consider going back.

Comment #113: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  03:25 PM

If someone can’t be told that they’re wrong without taking it personally, they’re the one with the problem.

corollary: If someone can’t allow others to be wrong without taking it personally, then they’re the one with the problem.

Just ‘cause you “know” you’re right about something does not make it OK to run around belittling those who disagree with you about that something. Not that you said you would do this, but I think this is the implication that has some people riled up here right now.

I mean, come on—- everybody knows someone who “just can’t let it go” when they are disagreed with; they feel terribly insulted because someone else can’t see things their way. But that person is an obnoxious asshole, usually, when they act this way ... No?

Comment #114: Stephen  on  07/10  at  03:28 PM

If you’re not willing to do that, if you want to be an asshole by going around and telling people they’re wrong and stupid and believe in obvious lies (something Amanda’s post and several early comments seem to advocate), you’re no better than the people who do the same thing in the name of religion.

I’m interested in meeting some of these atheists, mostly to determine their flesh to straw ratio.

Comment #115: The Other Will  on  07/10  at  03:57 PM

Which brings me to the part where I never said that, at all, in any way.

If you think I did, could you please quote me on that?

Was referring to this:

Well then either you radically misunderstand, lack reading comprehension, or have no idea how obnoxious your idea of “being upfront” really is for other people in your life.  Again, no better than the time I found a memo on my dad’s fridge listing off tactics for “Spreading The Good News” at work.  When I told him how obnoxious that sort of thing seems to non-Christians, he had pretty much the same reaction as most of the atheists in this thread.

Now, I may have misunderstood due to the last part of the above, and if I did, I apologise.  My reading of that was that “being upfront” = “spreading the Good News at work”.  And I’m also not sure why “being upfront” is supposed to be so offensive since all Amanda said in her original post (as far as I could see) was that atheists shouldn’t have to constantly pay lip service / defer to religious beliefs, and that they should speak up for themselves.  Which seems pretty mild to me - it’s not like she’s advocating that atheists should go around yelling OMG U SUK DUMB THEIST at random theists who could be perfectly nice people.  Besides, I don’t need them to validate my “beliefs” (in quotes because atheism isn’t a “belief” in the way religion is), so why should I constantly have to baby them ?

Btw, I think a big part of the problem is that if someone tells me they’re religious, I don’t take it as a personal insult or something and demand that they justify themselves to me (unless they’re demanding that I live my life according to the dictates of their religion, which is a different kettle of fish altogether).  I am however not convinced that I would be accorded the same consideration were I to mention my atheism, no matter how casually*.  Also, if if I was asked to justify my atheism (and I don’t think I would volunteer my reasons unless they asked specifically for them) what am I supposed to do, make weepy noises about the God-shaped hole in my heart and ask them to pray for me so that they can feel all superior and validated ? Uh, I think not.

*The poster above who mentioned the similarity to people with kids who get very upset when you tell them that you don’t want to have kids ? Spot on.

Comment #116: liane  on  07/10  at  04:04 PM

This is a common mistake, but none of those groups were actually atheists. They deified the power of the state and of the leader.

They simply substituted one religious belief for another. That’s why, for instance, after the fall of Communism in Russia, the Church was back like it had never left. Because it never had left; Russians never had a chance to get out of practice at religious belief. They had simply substituted one entirely religious belief for another; one that falsely adopted the mantle of rationalism and atheism.

Funny you say that as the definition of atheism I recall from dictionaries and talking with atheist co-workers/friends after college was the nonbelief/rejection of belief in God or any spiritual/theistic higher beings.  It does not preclude the elevating of the power of the state, leader, or anything non-spiritual/magical paramount and above all others. 

Moreover, Marx himself wrote that “Religion is the opium of the people” in one of his theoretical writings and his subsequent followers including Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and others have decried religious belief in favor of various forms of rationalist “scientific socialisms”...which I will acknowledge is not often very rationalistic or scientific as Lysenkoism has proven in the former Soviet Union and Maoist China. rolleyes

Sure, some universities are embracing this particular form of woo.  That doesn’t make it scientifically credible.  The scientific literature is mixed at best,

One of the main reasons why there has not been too many scientific studies until the last few years is precisely because of great Eurocentric prejudices against non-Western medical practices.  Just because you and other American/Westerners have little to no understanding of a technique that has been used in China and other Asian civilizations for thousands of years does not mean one should automatically assume they are “woo” without conclusive scientific studies definitively proving that. 

Even several Doctors who were roommates/neighbors who graduated from topflight med schools such as Harvard and Johns Hopkins and work in Harvard affiliated hospitals have expressed that more scientific studies should be done on this procedure and decried this very Eurocentric dismissive attitude that is common among many in the Western medical establishment.

Comment #117: exholt  on  07/10  at  04:17 PM

Prayer has been used for thousands of years, too. Doesn’t mean it works.

Comment #118: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/10  at  04:34 PM

(Actually I should have phrased that last bit differently.  It’s more like people with kids who get very upset after they interrogate you about your baby-making plans and you tell them, in the politest way possible, that you don’t have any.)

Comment #119: liane  on  07/10  at  04:34 PM

This is what, in Amanda’s post, caused me to think that she advocates active anti-religion proselytizing:

“The public wants to enjoy the benefits of science without taking on the challenge to magical beliefs.  The “no conflict” line, which I’ve peddled before and will probably be lulled into peddling again is a way to get the public to resolve this contradiction.  The problem is that it’s bullshit.”

In other words, atheists should pressure scientists to toe the atheist line rather than admitting that it is possible to believe in both.  Even though it is, in fact, possible to believe both unless you are a radical orthodox “literalist”.  Which the vast majority of people who believe in god are not.  I agree of course that scientists should tell the truth as they know it, and should be honest when cross-examined on the stand, even if it means that in the answer to a specific question they must be clear that scientific fact contradicts a literal reading of Genesis (for instance).  Except that it’s pretty easy to do that without offending the vast majority of theists, and in fact no contradiction exists.  Insomuch as Amanda suggests that atheists demand scientists toe an atheist line which is based on ignorance, she advocates something every bit as problematic as Christianist proselytizing.

atheism isn’t a “belief” in the way religion is

Stupidest meme ever.

Everything humans believe is a belief.  I believe I’m wearing red shoes, because I’m not looking at my feet right now and cannot conclusively prove anything without doing so (and were I to look, what would be proven was that I was wearing one red shoe, thus I would be wrong in everything but a semantic sense).  I believed it was about 3:30 until I looked over at the clock and confirmed it. This morning I arrived at the bus stop just as the bus was pulling away, so I believed another bus wouldn’t be along for at least 10 more minutes—but then it arrived just a moment later; the schedule was off. 

Since you cannot know with any real certainty whether god exists, it’s a belief that you hold.  Those who prefer to look at the world through the lens of a Logic 101 student can choose to believe that their precious mathitude “proves” god does not exist, but that’s ridiculous because said mathitude also cannot prove that art exists as anything beyond a collection of squiggles on a canvas.  Part of the reason I think so many atheists are so impossibly dim is that they don’t seem to understand this (what I said above about the dreary philistine approach to atheism, which is what Dawkins boils down to in my opinion).

if someone tells me they’re religious, I don’t take it as a personal insult or something and demand that they justify themselves to me (unless they’re demanding that I live my life according to the dictates of their religion, which is a different kettle of fish altogether

If someone tells me they’re an atheist, I don’t take it as a personal insult or something and demand that they justify themselves to me.  Over and over, however, I get the sense that atheists do demand such justification from me, and also demand that I live my life according to the dictates of their beliefs (which is what this thread boils down to).  I have no beef with atheism as such.  My beef is with the antagonistic approach.

Comment #120: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  04:35 PM

I’m interested in meeting some of these atheists, mostly to determine their flesh to straw ratio.

I have not been back to the campus in several years so I don’t know if the militant atheists I and several other religious, agnostic, and students who don’t tolerate any intolerant BS from anyone experienced….but if there was a way to time-travel back to the 1990-1999…..you’d meet plenty of them at my alma mater…Oberlin.  I’ve also heard from college acquaintances and high school classmates that similar campus majorities existed at Antioch College and to a lesser extent…UC Berkeley.  My classmates theorized it was to a lesser extent than my experiences due to fact it is not as geographically isolated and self-selecting as the other two colleges. 

Still meet a small number of the same type of militant atheists on occasion at my grad campus..but I find that the campus is far more diversified in terms of belief systems with a “live and let live” attitude and the vast majority of students are far less intolerant of such militant in your face BS from anyone…whether religious or not…..though some Christian/Catholic fundies would like you to believe otherwise.  Then again, a large part of this is because most of the students here have better things to do than to think about whether others believe in a particular religion/theistic deity or not.

Comment #121: exholt  on  07/10  at  04:37 PM

Corrections:

I have not been back to the campus in several years so I don’t know if the militant atheists I and several other religious, agnostic, and students who don’t tolerate any intolerant BS from anyone experienced are still the prevailing majority…

Still meet a small number of the same type of militant atheists on occasion at my grad campus..but I find that the campus is far more diversified in terms of belief systems with a “live and let live” attitude and the vast majority of students are far less tolerant of such militant in your face BS from anyone…whether religious or not…..though some Christian/Catholic fundies would like you to believe otherwise.

Comment #122: exholt  on  07/10  at  04:43 PM

I’m interested in meeting some of these atheists, mostly to determine their flesh to straw ratio.

To be honest, I haven’t met very many militant/belligerent atheists. 

My problem is not Ohnoes These People Exist And Are Coming To Get Me, but that I read Amanda’s post as advocating that kind of behavior.  If nobody takes her up on it (or if I’m the only one who read that into the post), then such folks do not exist.  If the militant atheists on the internet start succeeding in convincing people to go around making sure every theist they know is aware of just how delusional they are, then those folks exist, and are a bunch of jerks.  It’s really that simple. 

But come on, guys.  Your patron saint titled his book The God Delusion.  Not The God Error, or The God Misconception, or The God Anachronism.  The title itself is militant and antagonistic, and implies that its author believes that all theists are a bunch of deluded morons, if not knowing perpetuators of a lie.

Comment #123: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  04:48 PM

But come on, guys.  Your patron saint titled his book The God Delusion.  Not The God Error, or The God Misconception, or The God Anachronism.  The title itself is militant and antagonistic, and implies that its author believes that all theists are a bunch of deluded morons, if not knowing perpetuators of a lie.

*facepalm*

Patron saint? Get a grip.

Comment #124: The Other Will  on  07/10  at  04:52 PM

Your patron saint titled…

blah blah blah

Comment #125: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/10  at  04:53 PM

Prayer has been used for thousands of years, too. Doesn’t mean it works.

One big difference is that the efficacy of acupuncture can be scientifically falsifiable through rigorous scientific testing. 

Comparing prayer with acupuncture is not only comparing apples and oranges, but also falls dangerously into the White Colonialist trope of deeming Western science/medicine/technology as automatically superior while being so dismissive of non-Western counterparts that they aren’t even worthy of study until very recently. 

This was the very attitude my MD friends and neighbors decried as Eurocentric, close-minded, and even unscientific about the Western medical establishment.  In fact, it was through these very doctors fighting against this very attitude that made the recent scientific studies of acupuncture in American medical schools like Cornell and Columbia possible. 

Like them, I am not a 100% convinced of acupuncture….but I do believe there is enough compelling reports and studies to warrant further scientific investigation and not something to be perfunctorily dismissed as “woo” as one commenter did.

Comment #126: exholt  on  07/10  at  04:55 PM

It’s an idiom.  Get a grip.

Comment #127: The Opoponax  on  07/10  at  04:55 PM

Part of the reason I think so many atheists are so impossibly dim is that they don’t seem to understand this

and

Over and over, however, I get the sense that atheists do demand such justification from me, and also demand that I live my life according to the dictates of their beliefs (which is what this thread boils down to).  I have no beef with atheism as such.  My beef is with the antagonistic approach.

Okay, we’re not supposed to say religion is dumb because it would be “antagonistic” (cue the pearl-clutching).  Of course, it’s perfectly all right for religionists to screech about how “impossibly dim” we are.

Since you cannot know with any real certainty whether god exists, it’s a belief that you hold.

Talking about incredibly stupid memes (ooh, sorry, was that “in-your-face” of me? cue more pearl-clutching).  Of course I don’t “know with any real certainty whether god exists” - even Dawkins acknowledges the (very very tiny) possibility that there is a God, iirc.  I don’t believe in the existence of God because there isn’t any proof for it at the moment, not because I “know” he doesn’t exist.  (I leave that sort of certainty to theists.)  You can verify that you are wearing red shoes by looking at your shoes, but as far as I can tell the existence of God/gods isn’t verifiable.  That’s all.  I don’t “know” that God doesn’t exist, all I do know is that no one’s come up with any proof for his/her existence that I find remotely convincing.

And frankly I don’t care if you believe in God or whatever - it’s none of my business.  I am however tired of being told that I am dumber/more evil than people who are trying to make everyone else’s lives miserable in the name of their God (and there are a helluva lot more of them than all these straw-atheists who keep popping up in your arguments).

<shrugs>

Comment #128: liane  on  07/10  at  04:57 PM

Opoponax, if you really believe God exists and is on your side, why should you care whether we think you’re misguided, delusional, in error, anachronistic, wearing red shoes, or anything else?

Comment #129: Bitter Scribe  on  07/10  at  05:01 PM

When I was in high school and college, I think I was more upfront about my atheism. Not that I was going around proselytizing, but when I was in groups that thought saying a prayer before a meal was the thing to do, I didn’t say the prayer. I didn’t even bow my head! Oh, the drama. People would freak right on out.

I’m definitely more under-cover in the work world, though. That’s not to say it doesn’t come up. It does. With more frequency than I would have thought. Like when my coworkers ask what I did over the weekend. If I say, oh, I went out to dinner with friends, went to a play, whatever, they ask (with suspicion), Didn’t you go to church?

The funny thing to me is, I do go to church! But I’m UU, and that’s not really looked on as any better than a godless heathen (which I also am). So when the questions come about WHERE I go to church, I deflect. Oh, in another town. Which town? Oh, [specific town]. Say, what do you think about x? (Where x is any work related matter I can lay my hands on.)

It’s not that I’m ashamed of my church or my atheism. But I worry that being upfront about them at work would have a detrimental affect on my future job prospects. And I don’t think I’m crazy to worry about that, because I’ve heard how my colleagues and supervisors talk about people who are non-church goers, or of a different religion from the majority. And it’s not good. I wish that were all different, but it’s not. So I try to be as quiet as possible.

But in my private life, I think being honest is the way to go. Sorry, no, I’m not going to say your prayer just because my not doing so makes you uncomfortable. And if you’re going to question me about it, I’ll answer honestly. I’m not going to lie just to make you feel better. And if you start telling me that I’d better start believing or I’m going to hell, there’s a distinct possibility that I will look at you incredulously and walk away. Or laugh.

Comment #130: PJ  on  07/10  at  05:15 PM

Funny you say that as the definition of atheism I recall from dictionaries and talking with atheist co-workers/friends after college was the nonbelief/rejection of belief in God or any spiritual/theistic higher beings.

Those regimes held their leaders, and state power in general, to be a spiritual higher being.

I mean we’re talking about a culture that would hold parades in front of a painting of the leader. That believed your radio could listen to your conversations. That believed in Lysenkoism.

These are spiritual beliefs. If you believe that your leader can see out of painted eyes, you’ve adopted a position that he’s a higher spiritual power.

Neither Soviet, nor Chinese, nor Southeast Asian “atheist” communism were ever really atheistic; they were anti-church, but that was a matter of eliminating the competition. The dramatic resurgence of religion once these movements were at an end is proof that the movements themselves were religious, all along - people never had the chance to get out of practice.

which I will acknowledge is not often very rationalistic or scientific as Lysenkoism has proven in the former Soviet Union and Maoist China.

That’s kind of my point, isn’t it? If they were so rational and scientific, how do you explain Lysenkoism? How do you explain “God is the State; the State is God”? How do you explain parades in front of paintings and radios that listen to you?

It’s all from the same source as religion - community enforcement of belief in lies-held-to-be-truths; i.e. delusions. That’s nothing akin to atheism.

Comment #131: Chet  on  07/10  at  05:19 PM

Gawd. My point about Bach is that sublimity as aesthetic experience is irrational. It can be bound up with scientific understanding, but as a phenomenon, it’s not scientific. And Dawkins has that very English thing where he says ‘oh, the King James Bible has many poetic passages’, but it really is lipservice. I’ve seen him do his, um, live act several times (usually with a bishop or two) and you get the feeling that he’d wrinkle his nose at people who cry during the Ode to Joy or the Elgar Cello Concerto. He’s very English in that regard.

The tendency to mythologise and create religious structures, both abstract and physical, is inherently human. You can’t extrapolate God from the varied ways in which people deal with the stuff that’s bigger than them, but you can’t just say that ‘well, it’s irrational, and we need to stop it’, as if you’re discussing it over a nice dinner at All Souls’.

People believe in shit. If we’re not ‘built that way’ in a deterministic way, the entirety of history suggests that we’re pretty much inclined to do it. And ‘belief in shit’ is a catalyst for a lot of things. So ultimately, I think that Dawkins misses the point: yeah, ‘all signs point to no’, but that doesn’t stop people believing in shit. People on the north side of Chicago believe in the curse of the goat. That’s not a judgement on God, that’s a judgement on people.

David Hume’s Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion did it for me as far as personal belief is concerned. But belief as a social phenomenon isn’t going to go away any time soon, nor will the distinct products of different varieties of belief.

If someone can’t be told that they’re wrong without taking it personally, they’re the one with the problem.

I suspect, Chet, that it wouldn’t take more than a couple of hours to establish which beliefs you’d take personally if told they were wrong, and based upon prejudice and misapprehension. If, for instance, you have kids, they’re really no more special than any other kid, and anything you do that implies otherwise is based upon a delusion. I really couldn’t give a fuck about the role of God in this equation. It’s about people.

Comment #132: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/10  at  05:19 PM

The title itself is militant and antagonistic

The title is accurate. “Delusion” is the clinically-correct term for someone who believes in something that is manifestly untrue.

When a man believes that Napoleon Bonaparte is telling him what to do, we call him “deluded.” When a man believes that Jesus Christ is telling him what to do, we call him “religious.” The point of the title is that there’s really not any reason to use different terms, except for a long-standing taboo against applying the same rules of evidence to religion as we apply to literally everything else.

Comment #133: Chet  on  07/10  at  05:22 PM

I have to agree with exholt. We may not underestand why acupuncture is effective when it’s effective. It could be effective entirely for placebo reasons, and that’s the scientific explanation. Or there could be some scientific basis for it that has nothing to do with non-scientific philosophies about yin and yang. Even sham acupuncture studies don’t necessarily mean much, because it’s quite possible they’re producing the same effect as acupuncture, and it’s just that the meridians don’t mean as much as the non-scientific literature claims. Whatever the case, it’s clear that the NIH and a number of scientists think it’s worthwhile to investigate what’s going on with acupuncture. That’s enough for me to raise an eyebrow at dismissals of acupuncture as “woo” or put in the same candling as homeopathy or ear candling, which are easily debunked.

Exholt is also right about prejudices against non-Western medical procedures are sometimes linked to beliefs about the unalloyed superiority of techniques and methods developed by Europeans.

Comment #134: Holly  on  07/10  at  05:24 PM

Exholt, I find your attempts to subject science to cultural relativism to be both amusing and disturbing.  There is no such thing as “Western” or “Eastern” science, there is only science, the method for determining reality via observation and experimentation.  Acupuncture is dismissed by scientific medicine because it makes claims that it has no evidence for, claims that in fact wholly implausible (the notion of chi and the manipulation of the same).  It’s not dismissed out of some Eurocentric hubris.  Indeed, homeopathy is dismissed for the exact same reason, and it’s an entirely European creation.

Contrary to your claims, there have been studies done on acupuncture, they just haven’t been studies with positive results.  Apparently, that’s the only research that counts for you.

Comment #135: Cain  on  07/10  at  05:34 PM

One more example, given the season:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

It’s a credo that sounds pretty good—even atheists can pass over the Deistic nod—and Americans do like reading it aloud this time of year. But it’s all just a bunch of assertions, really, isn’t it? It just happens to be a set of privileged assertions within the borders of a nation that treats it as significant.

Comment #136: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/10  at  05:49 PM

My point about Bach is that sublimity as aesthetic experience is irrational. It can be bound up with scientific understanding, but as a phenomenon, it’s not scientific.

Says who? What’s unscientific about it? It’s happening, isn’t it? Happening to people?

So ultimately, I think that Dawkins misses the point: yeah, ‘all signs point to no’, but that doesn’t stop people believing in shit.

The existence of atheists proves you wrong. If it’s not possible to stop believing in shit, then where are all the atheists coming from? I’ve stopped believing in shit. Now I just develop tentative ideas about the universe, throw ‘em at the evidence, and see what sticks.

You can live your life without faith. Atheists are doing it. And the amazing thing is, all it takes to become an atheist is to be told the right thing. Somebody just has to speak the right words to you - that’s what happened to every atheist. That’s what Dawkins and Harris and the rest are trying to figure out.

If, for instance, you have kids, they’re really no more special than any other kid, and anything you do that implies otherwise is based upon a delusion.

I don’t take that personally, I guess. But, you know, congrats on having me figured out so well.

Comment #137: Chet  on  07/10  at  05:54 PM

Cain, exholt says that there is a bias against some treatments in the ‘western medical establishment’. That’s not what you say. His claims could be extended to any medicine pre-modern:

using leaches was ridiculed for years, but wait, now that they have been studied it seems they do have real uses;
many plant remedies were also ridiculed for years, but after study it turns out that many have real use—that’s why there’s a rush into the Amazon to medicinal plants.

exholts point was that modern medicine for years dismissed WITHOUT study traditional treatment. That’s not only unscientific, it’s pretty stupid

Going back to the main point, I think the way to do this is to preach a complete church-state separation. If a scientist is asked if they believe in god, why can’t they say ‘it doesn’t matter’? That will upset the literalists, but not most religous.

Comment #138: JohnL  on  07/10  at  05:59 PM

OK, yeah, obviously you can argue that fundamentalist religion is harmful to society, and there I’d agree.  Except that “fundamentalism” and “religion” are not even vaguely equivalent.

If I recall correctly, Dawkins adresses this point.  His premise is that religion is sea that allows the fundamentalist sharks to swim with the faithfull fish.  The existence of religion, with its belief in a higher power, grants cover to those who act in intolerant or violent fashion.  It allows them to justify henious acts in the name of god.  We’ve seen this with the WTC, Erich Rudolph, etc.
As an out athiest, I have absoluetly no problem with people believing.  You believe in god, allah, vishnu, satan?  Fine, go for it.  Have. A. Ball.
But your unfounded magical thinking should not be allowed to:
Teach my kids bullshit.
Stop effective disease prevention.
Give my tax money to churches.
Stop me from buying a drink on sunday.
Stop me from using my naughty bits with another consenting adult in the privacy of my home in a manner of my choosing.
Stop me from buying a sex toy to use in my home.
Create higher penalties for getting busted near a church.
Stop me from wedding the person I love.
Stop me from viewing porn produced by consenting adults.
Stop me from being able to find necessary medical care.
Stop me from being able to purchase correctly prescribed legal medication.
Escalate political and economic conflicts into even nastier religious conflicts.
Count as a metric in child custody disputes.
These are just a few that occured to me in less than 5 minutes.  All are religiously inspired laws, policies or customs that apply to the place I live now, where I’ve lived in the past or places in the US I have visited.
This is why all religion should be viewed with skepticism; its powerfull stuff that can force its way into your life, no matter what you believe, because it is respected as a force for good.  It should not be.  Religion has been used as explicit justification for intolerance, racism and the denial of civil rights too often in the past.  Its poison.  I will not start a dialog about religion, but I will freely discuss it with those who do start such a discussion.  It has cost me friends and a really good alt-rock band durring the sweetest part of the early 90’s Seattle scene.  But its important note that they left, not me.  They chose to leave after I admitted my atheism.

Comment #139: CWD  on  07/10  at  06:16 PM

That’s kind of my point, isn’t it? If they were so rational and scientific, how do you explain Lysenkoism? How do you explain “God is the State; the State is God”? How do you explain parades in front of paintings and radios that listen to you?

Lysenkoism came into being and was supported by the Soviet and Maoist authorities because it was dressed up as a form of rational science in the service of communism.  The “scientist” who came up with this was clever enough to exploit the political and ideological blinkers of his superiors and co-workers to the point they were suckered into buying into his ideas….setting back Soviet and mainland Chinese agriculture for decades…and in China’s case…resulted in the great famine known as the Great Leap Forward. 

The state was paramount because it was an existent institution with overwhelming social and physical coercive means at its disposal….not because it is some supernatural deity that people believed in as a matter of faith.  It also explains the parades in front of paintings and yes…even radios which listen to you.  People did not obey and pay homage to the state because they believed it was an omniscient “God”....but because they knew it was a real powerful institution which possessed enough overwhelming power that going along with it may net themselves some benefits or at the very least…left alone by the state.  Failure to do would end up their losing their livelihoods, social ostracism, imprisonment, and yes….even death. 

Funny you equate the feeling among most people in many communist countries of radios listening to you as superstition of the Godly state when relatives and other neighbors who lived under such regimes had a far more simpler explanation…..the totalitarian nature of such regimes meant that the state took great measures to co-opt people to spy on their neighbors, use bugging devices implanted in seemingly ordinary items like radios, etc in order to implant so much fear of the state in order to head off any thoughts of opposing it….or failing that….to apprehend that dissident before s(he) could become a serious threat to the state. 

You’ve obviously never knew anyone who lived under communist rule….I can assure you that most of its citizens reasons for feeling that radios are listening to them are not based on superstitious fears…but rational ones based on a mix of neighborhood spies and electronic bugs needed to minimize the possibilities of being arrested by their local Stasi, Red Guard, or State Security personnel for supposed counter-revolutionary activities.  Those fears were rational traits one needed in the mental survival kit to living and surviving day-to-day in a totalitarian Communist, Fascist, or other regimes of its type for that matter….especially if one happens to be part of the “unfavored” classes such as religious believers, intellectuals, or anyone else the State felt to be suspect.

Comment #140: exholt  on  07/10  at  06:17 PM

Chet,
Spot on with your take on the state religions founded by Stalin, Mao, etc.  I hold the same view.

Comment #141: CWD  on  07/10  at  06:18 PM

The state was paramount because it was an existent institution with overwhelming social and physical coercive means at its disposal….not because it is some supernatural deity that people believed in as a matter of faith.  It also explains the parades in front of paintings and yes…even radios which listen to you.  People did not obey and pay homage to the state because they believed it was an omniscient “God”....but because they knew it was a real powerful institution which possessed enough overwhelming power that going along with it may net themselves some benefits or at the very least…left alone by the state.

Precisely the reason that most people go to church - not because they believe in a God that grants wishes, but because they recognize (in some cases) the temporal power to be gained from allegiance to that church, or (in other cases) the support and benefits that come along with membership in a certain community.

So, again, a difference that’s no difference. People marched the parades in front of paintings not because they believed that the painting could see, but because they knew it was important to appear to believe that the painting could see. Just like most Catholics know that the wafer doesn’t literally turn into Jesus’s flesh, they just know how important it is to appear to believe it.

They’re exactly the same thing. The atrocities of Soviet Russia and Maoist China are properly laid at the feet of religion, part of an obvious trend. They have nothing to do with a society based on verifiable evidence.

Comment #142: Chet  on  07/10  at  06:25 PM

The existence of atheists proves you wrong. If it’s not possible to stop believing in shit, then where are all the atheists coming from?

By ‘shit’, I don’t mean ‘a higher power that may or may not have created everything and may or may not actively intervene in the workings of the world’. I mean ‘shit’ in the sense of ‘all sorts of shit’. The existence of atheists doesn’t make belief in stuff that isn’t scientifically verifiable vanish in a puff of logic. That’s just silly. I’m sure that there are atheists who make it their goal in life to pooh-pooh superstition and misguided belief in all aspects of their life. I also suspect they don’t get invited to many childrens’ parties at Christmas.

I don’t take that personally, I guess. But, you know, congrats on having me figured out so well.

Like I said, give me a couple of hours. (Not that I’m making that request.) Your life partner, should you have one, is not the most beautiful person in the world. And so on. Oh, this might work: your belief that you are living your life without ‘faith’ (in the broad Humean sense that you draw causation from repetition) is just plain wrong.

Comment #143: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/10  at  06:29 PM

I also suspect they don’t get invited to many childrens’ parties at Christmas.

This is just the same “atheists don’t like Bach” horseshit. You don’t know a goddamned thing about atheism, do you?

There’s nothing about making a conscious decision not to believe in things on the basis of no good evidence that makes you a joyless party-pooper. There’s no need to believe in a magic sky-man to enjoy a good movie, or listen to music, or have a good time with your friends. To love your family and work in your community.

Your life partner, should you have one, is not the most beautiful person in the world.

Objectively true, I’m quite fond of her though, and no, I don’t take it personally either.

Oh, this might work: your belief that you are living your life without ‘faith’ (in the broad Humean sense that you draw causation from repetition) is just plain wrong.

The Humean sense of “faith” is a word-game that has nothing to do with faith, so no, I don’t take it personally. (I just know that you’re wrong. Referencing a philosopher was an immediate indication.)

Comment #144: Chet  on  07/10  at  06:41 PM

They’re exactly the same thing. The atrocities of Soviet Russia and Maoist China are properly laid at the feet of religion, part of an obvious trend. They have nothing to do with a society based on verifiable evidence.

No, it is not and shows a substantial oversimplification not only of Marxist-Leninism and Maoism as it was practiced….but also seems to be an attempt by you and other similarly minded atheists to disavow any association with avowed atheistic ideological movements because of their bloody murderous legacy. 

It is not any different from many Christians I’ve encountered who attempt to explain their own religions’ bloody murderous legacy by saying “Oh, those Crusaders, colonialist missionaries, antisemites, racists, etc were not true Christians living in accordance with Jesus’ teachings”.  Like this argument, I find your arguments to be just as equivocal and wrong. 

I might add that if you argued this on any Chinese or Russian studies paper that even my most avowedly Marxist professors will mark it down for atrocious oversimplifications and gross errors. 

From chatting with Chinese relatives who actually lived under Maoism from 1949 till the late 1970’s and from reading much Chinese studies scholarship on this subject, the main reason why religion came back with a vengeance was not because Maoism became the defacto state religion…..but was more due to the fact those who were religious found ways to resist the state-imposed atheism and the fact the Maoists were never successful in completely stamping out the religious beliefs the Chinese people held before the 1949 revolution.  By the time the Cultural Revolution ended in the late 1970’s and Deng Xiaoping started implementing reforms which increased state tolerance for religious beliefs, the pre-1949 religions….especially the wide variety of Chinese folk religions came back with a vengeance.  My relatives’ experiences were confirmed by several prominent Chinese studies scholars including an anthropologist and Political scientist who did field work in China during that period and with whom I studied. 

Interestingly, most atheists I’ve had had no problems acknowledging the iniquties of avowed atheistic movements like Marxist-Leninism and Maoism and to even explain that no membership or subscription to any belief/non-belief automatically immunizes one from oppressing, brutalizing, and killing other human beings.  A wise few even stated that to believe that being an atheist, Christian, or any other religion, philosophy, or ideology automatically confers this sort of immunization is itself a form of self-delusion and dangerous.  As a result, I’ve gained a great deal of respect for atheists as a group from those long after-work conversations

Comment #145: exholt  on  07/10  at  07:08 PM

Jeebus Chet, you’re defining atheists out of existence. Non-belief in god was a central tenet of Leninism, but you say it’s religious because:
“Precisely the reason that most people go to church - not because they believe in a God that grants wishes, but because they recognize (in some cases) the temporal power to be gained from allegiance to that church, or (in other cases) the support and benefits that come along with membership in a certain community.
People marched the parades in front of paintings not because they believed that the painting could see, but because they knew it was important to appear to believe that the painting could see. Just like most Catholics know that the wafer doesn’t literally turn into Jesus’s flesh, they just know how important it is to appear to believe it.”

Here’s the definition of atheism: a disbelief in the existence of deity. An atheist doesn’t have to be rational or scientific, just not believe in god. Do you have a different definition?

Comment #146: JohnL  on  07/10  at  07:10 PM

The existence of atheists doesn’t make belief in stuff that isn’t scientifically verifiable vanish in a puff of logic. That’s just silly.

No, people don’t stop believing in things that aren’t true because there are atheists. Thanks for clearing up that widespread misconception.

I’m sure that there are atheists who make it their goal in life to pooh-pooh superstition and misguided belief in all aspects of their life. I also suspect they don’t get invited to many childrens’ parties at Christmas.

You’re sure? Are you really? Well, if you’re sure.

Comment #147: junk science  on  07/10  at  07:24 PM

There’s no need to believe in a magic sky-man to enjoy a good movie, or listen to music, or have a good time with your friends. To love your family and work in your community.

Whenever someone brings up this argument, it makes me think they’re not very happy themselves, or capable of enjoying things without needing to feel like there’s some Magic Guiding Principle or Deeper Meaning or whatever behind them. It makes them sound like they feel empty inside and are projecting that onto others, just like people who insist you can’t be moral without religion sound like they’re just looking for a reason to rape and rob and murder. I don’t think they really are, but some part of them isn’t sure, which is scary.

Comment #148: junk science  on  07/10  at  07:27 PM

Stalin and Mao both presented themselves as prophets of a new mankind.  They created extra-human personas that were then presented to the poulace as new men and saviours of mankind.  The brand of marx-leninism practiced by these folk had its own:
1. God - the proletariat
2. Mythology - the class struggle with myths that encompassed events such as the paris comune, 1848, sparticists, 1905, the Potemkin, storming the winter palace etc.
3. Pantheon - Engles, Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao
4. Beatification of heros - participants in the Potemkin Mutiny (Golikov etc), the Petrograd uprising participants, Long march participants(not purged by Mao) old Boshiviks (not purged by Stalin).
5. Scripture and evolving dogma - Das Kapital, endless refinements of ideology for correctness.
6. Sacrifice for the faith - work quota’s, collectivization etc.
7. the Enemy - world capitalism, reactionaries, counter revolutionaries etc.
Communism was present as the way to salvation in this world.  It has so many religious elements that its hard for me not to see it as such.

Comment #149: CWD  on  07/10  at  07:31 PM

<blockqoute>Here’s the definition of atheism: a disbelief in the existence of deity. </blockquote>
But you can have religions without a diety - certain buddhist sects and Japanese Animism spring to mind.
So, if you can have athiestic religions, the foul communist regimes of the 20th century seem to fit the bill.
Here’s what I find for a definition of religion:

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion. 
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.
 
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion. 
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith. 
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

Emphasis mine.

Comment #150: CWD  on  07/10  at  07:49 PM

CWD,

Marxist-Leninism, Stalinism, and Maoism were political ideologies that in practice….had trappings of religions….but were not religions because those ideologies were not centered on a supernatural/spiritual/theistic higher being. 

If you believe this, then one can plausibly argue that any form of patriotism, hierarchical political ideology, or even celebrity fandom are religions….which I think not only overexpands the definition of religious/theistic beliefs into practical meaninglessness, but conflates the image those Marxist derived ideologies may have intentionally/unintentionally projected and the actual underlying reality.

Comment #151: exholt  on  07/10  at  07:51 PM

You don’t know a goddamned thing about atheism, do you?

Ah, Chet’s a write-only commenter. Try addressing what I said upthread, rather than what you seem to think I’m saying, because you’re arguing with someone quite different. I also have no way of knowing how my atheism chops compare to yours, but if I had to put money on the spread, I’d take the over, thank you very fucking much.

Oh, and that crack on philosophers? Priceless entertainment. As far as demolitions of belief systems go, I’ll stick with Hume’s, because it sets those irrational all-encompassing systems in their proper context, as the encrusted outgrowth of the little stories we tell to deal of the world.

So my point’s really simple: there are better ways to have done with religion than to troll it, and Dawkins’ book is a troll. Perhaps it’s one of those cases where the subject deserves trolling, and it certainly got attention, but it’s still fine piece of trolling. (Jonathan Miller’s Brief History of Disbelief is not a trolling exercise, and the extended conversation Miller has with Dawkins on ‘The Atheism Tapes’ is much more edifying than Dawkins left to his own devices. Most PBS affiliates either declined to show the programmes, or aired them in the small hours.)

Funny thing about David Hume: his contemporaries couldn’t bring themselves to believe he was an atheist—or, more precisely, that Hume believed in ‘annihilation’ at death, invoking Lucretius on the topic—because he’d lived such a virtuous life. While attending Hume’s funeral, the drunken, philandering, professed-Christian James Boswell convinced himself that there must have been some deathbed conversion; he then went and shagged one of the servants at the wake.

Comment #152: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/10  at  07:51 PM

No, people don’t stop believing in things that aren’t true because there are atheists. Thanks for clearing up that widespread misconception.

Well, thanks. It was Chet who claimed that the existence of atheists refuted that concept, so do take it up with him. I’m sure he’ll be along soon enough.

You’re sure? Are you really? Well, if you’re sure.

I’ll use [sarcasm] tags next time. Dear me. The atheist who delights in telling children that Santa and the Tooth Fairy are lies? Well, he’s a straw atheist. But village atheists are made of flesh and blood.

Comment #153: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/10  at  08:04 PM

CWD, exholt says what I was going to say, but let me add one bit: chet was trying to argue that Lenin, Stalin, and other top communists were not ATHEISTS (go read a ways upthread). That’s why a couple of us defined atheism for him. Thus your definition of religion doesn’t really come into play and your example of people who are religious but still atheists actually goes against his argument. Are you agreeing with him?

Comment #154: JohnL  on  07/10  at  09:14 PM

Uh, pseudo….those village atheists you link to are actually made of snark. I know, it sometimes LOOKS like flesh and blood…but only on the internetz.

Comment #155: The One True Vegan  on  07/10  at  09:40 PM

The years come and go, but some things stay the same.  I remember from way back in hi-skool, the glares and frowns and hostile remarks I got when for a couple of days I was carrying around my copy of Bertrand Russell’s Why I Am Not a Christian.  Good times!

Comment #156: W. Kiernan  on  07/10  at  09:43 PM

There are a lot of fairly complex points to be made in all this, and I don’t think I can say all I have to say in a comment here.

I think semantic arguments are a waste of time. Communism is a “religion” by some definitions and not a “religion” by some others. Depends on how you mean to use the word.  Deal with it. Accept that words are slippery and have complex meanings, and groups are fuzzy.  Don’t fall into fallacies of equivocation where you say “it’s a religion, therefore…” when you try to prove that just because something has X in common with a given religion, it must therefore have Y in common as well.

Except that semantics also get wound up here when Dawkins talks about “religion”, because I sometimes think what he describes doesn’t apply in the real world to a lot of (educated) religious people.  I’m only talking about Christianity, since that’s where most of my religious experience is.

There exist “religious” people who say they’re religious but their approach to the world is indistinguishable from someone who’s not. They may “pray”, but they expect it to be only a meditation, not magic; they have no expectation that anyone will suspend the laws of physics on their behalf.  They speak of “God”, and even of “God” being responsible for something, but accept at the same time that each such event also has perfectly natural explanation and no supernatural component.

What’s always been unclear to me - because I lack whatever it is that lets me stay in that state - is precisely what such people “believe”.  There are a number of “religious” people I know who will, if pressed, admit that any given magical/counterfactual assertion made by a given religion is “only metaphorical”, up to and including Jesus’ sacrifice, promises of an afterlife, or the existence of the soul. Nevertheless, they’re still “religious”, and in fact consider Dawkins and his work to be in opposition to what they “believe”.

And at the same time there are the very real societal costs (different topic).  Someone who privately has magical thoughts may rightly say his magical thoughts are his business and no one else’s. But if those magical thoughts lead him to use his influence in society in ways that I or another atheist might oppose, he cannot say that his position is immune to debate, or deserving of deference, because of his magical private thoughts.  Cf CWD on 07/10 at 05:16 PM above.

And as for making noise about it? Well, two things - one is that my grandmother (a product of her times, of course) disliked gay-pride and gay-rights movements, saying she had no problem with those people but why couldn’t they keep it private? Well, of course we all know the reason why—back in her day (and even today, in places) a gay person gets the shit kicked out of them in myriad unpleasant ways when someone finds out they’re gay.

The other is that we live in a democracy, where people are interdependent, not individual sovereign entities who can choose not to be affected by one another. In a democracy, the way progress tends to happen is by winning converts to your position by open debate.  It should be the case that if other people are wrong about X, I should consider it my responsibility, when the topic is broached in an appropriate forum for discussion, to explain why I believe I’m right and they’re wrong. I do so with every other topic under the sun; I should do so with religion, as well.

Without being an asshole about it (as, again, with every other topic). But the way in which in our society a person’s religious belief is considered unchallengeable is just plain wrong, and the way in which we must contort ourselves to avoid “offending” the religious distorts our ability to speak truth. And if we cannot speak truth, we do not have a healthy society.

Comment #157: eyelessgame  on  07/10  at  10:16 PM

I think semantic arguments are a waste of time. Communism is a “religion” by some definitions and not a “religion” by some others. Depends on how you mean to use the word.  Deal with it. Accept that words are slippery and have complex meanings, and groups are fuzzy.  Don’t fall into fallacies of equivocation where you say “it’s a religion, therefore…” when you try to prove that just because something has X in common with a given religion, it must therefore have Y in common as well.

I can proclaim that patriotism, nationalism or celebrity fandom are religions based on Chet’s overly broad definitions…..doesn’t make it true, however.

Comment #158: exholt  on  07/10  at  10:35 PM

The problem is that nobody’s religion seems to be limited to the personal and the private.

I think it’s more likely that the private religionists you know, you just don’t count. Sort of like how I ignore 10 polite kids in the supermarket but show me one rude kid, and I think no one disciplines their kids anymore.

If you’ll believe in communing with the Mother Earth Spirit on the basis of no evidence, why won’t you believe that the Mother Earth Spirit wants you to kill capitalists on the basis of no evidence?

If you believe in the power of “logic” so much, what’s to stop you from logically deciding to kill babies who have genetic predispositions towards mass murder? The good of the many, by some logical constraints, can be seen to outweigh the good of the few. My point is that ethics is a much more tangled web than you would believe.

The title is accurate. “Delusion” is the clinically-correct term for someone who believes in something that is manifestly untrue.

Chet, please point me to proof that God, any god, does not exist.

Comment #159: Faye  on  07/10  at  10:37 PM

One True Vegan: that piece is tongue firmly in cheek, given its authors, but it’s certainly built upon a real phenomenon with publising contracts an’ all.

Comment #160: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/11  at  02:37 AM

Chet, please point me to proof that God, any god, does not exist.

saying a god exists is not an extraordinary claim. The burden exists on those making a positive claim that something exists when there’s no evidence for that existence.

Comment #161: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/11  at  07:44 AM

oops…saying a god does not exists is not an extraordinary claim.
Saying it does exist is the extraordinary claim.

Comment #162: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  07/11  at  07:45 AM

The understanding of religion of most people is extremely superficial. This is what makes me absolutely certain that the understanding of atheism of most people is extremely superficial, as well. You can always, always rely on comment sections of blogs about atheism for wall-bangers like:
- not all religions are bad! some religions are vague enough to me to consider them compatible with science
- God doesn’t exist because I don’t agree with the descriptions of it that actually aren’t in a religious book that I didn’t actually read
- religious books are stupid because I apply a traditional, well-known scholarly analysis to them that isn’t traditional, nor well-known, nor scholarly
- religious people are stupid due to beliefs they don’t actually hold and habits they don’t actually have
- scientists are not religious! no good guy can be religious!
- I’m always rational in my thinking thanks to a discipline that proved people are never rational
- choices cannot be emotional, there are only smart rational choices and stupid rational choices, hence I am smart

Not as fun as comments about child rape, though. Those take the cake

Comment #163: KJK::Hyperion  on  07/11  at  08:14 AM

Look. It’s possible to be a proud atheist while still respecting other people’s beliefs. I’m proud of my own brand of political/religious beliefs but I don’t believe that those who disagree with me do so because they’re ‘deluded’ or ‘uneducated’. My friends, who have different beliefs feel the same which is why we can discuss these things rationally without the conversation dissolving into a tit-for-tat. I genuinely sympathise with people who live in fundamenatlist communities but holding it up as an example of why religion itself is inherently bad is ridiculous. George W Bush is the most powerful elected official in the world but that doesn’t mean democracy is a source of evil because it’s allowed successive US presidents to launch unjust wars on other states.

And CWD, to label totalitarian regimes which were based on (bogus) scientific theories as ‘religious’ is such a transparent example of insecurity it’s hard to know where to start. Maybe how your 7 point definition above also defines rock n’roll as a (presumably harmful) religion.

Comment #164: Rockit  on  07/11  at  09:42 AM

Lenin, Stalin, and other top communists were not ATHEISTS (go read a ways upthread). That’s why a couple of us defined atheism for him. Thus your definition of religion doesn’t really come into play and your example of people who are religious but still atheists actually goes against his argument. Are you agreeing with him?

Well, if anyone is still on this thread…
Prehaps I misread Chet’s comments above, I read it as the <u>systems</u> these assholes established were not athiestic, not that Stalin, Lennin, Mao were theists themselves. 
I do beleive that Lennin, Stalin, Mao were atheists.  I also believe that they created state religions centered on symbolic new men with extrahuman attributes.  I beleive they did this deliberately.  They created these structures to tap into patterns of thought and reactions already established in the populace to control that populace with a compelling base for indoctrination. 
How a religion is created is unimportant - how that religion affects the behaivor and action of its adherents is important. 
The sort of deification of the Mao and Stalin reminds me of the deification of Roman emporers or other folk like Hadrian’s lover Antonius.  Real people turned into “gods” for political or emotional reasons.
To me this is a case of: looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.

I can proclaim that patriotism, nationalism or celebrity fandom are religions based on Chet’s overly broad definitions…..doesn’t make it true, however.

And CWD, to label totalitarian regimes which were based on (bogus) scientific theories as ‘religious’ is such a transparent example of insecurity it’s hard to know where to start. Maybe how your 7 point definition above also defines rock n’roll as a (presumably harmful) religion.

But patriotisim, nationalism, rock n roll etc do not seek to totaly replace traditional beliefe schemes.  They are add ons.  Communisim as expressed in the sov union and prc seek to replace traditional religions with all new religions ideas.
They still venerate Mao in the PRC.  I was amazed to see it on my first visit in ‘97 and stunned to see still around durring my last visit in ‘07.
I fail to see insecurity in my posts - inartfull language and typo’s yes, insecurity no.

Comment #165: CWD  on  07/11  at  01:44 PM

No, it is not and shows a substantial oversimplification not only of Marxist-Leninism and Maoism as it was practiced….but also seems to be an attempt by you and other similarly minded atheists to disavow any association with avowed atheistic ideological movements because of their bloody murderous legacy.

That’s exactly what it is - a justified attempt to dissociate the slander of Soviet atrocities with atheism, because they were committed by governments that were “atheist” only in name. In any meaningful sense, Marxism and Maoism became a religion, supported by religious faith; that’s why they were in such conflict with established churches and religions, they were a direct competitor for the exact same mental real estate.

Non-belief in god was a central tenet of Leninism, but you say it’s religious because:

Because “God is the state, the State is God.” How can a movement with that motto be considered atheist? They don’t not believe in God; they’ve simply raised another god in place. If I were to tell you “science is my God” (which is something I’ve been accused of believing, but I don’t) you would rightly tell me I was no atheist. Just because a decade of religious indoctrination has told you that the atrocities of Soviet Russia and communist China were the result of atheism doesn’t mean that it’s true. It’s the same reason people try to say that Hitler was an atheist - it’s an attempt to smear atheists, and you’re helping.

Comment #166: Chet  on  07/11  at  03:43 PM

It was Chet who claimed that the existence of atheists refuted that concept, so do take it up with him.

Not quite. I suspect you didn’t read carefully.

The point, which you missed, is that it is possible for people to stop believing in bullshit; atheists do it, thus it must be possible.

I never said that atheists prove that nobody believes in bullshit, but thank you very much for playing.

Comment #167: Chet  on  07/11  at  03:46 PM

I can proclaim that patriotism, nationalism or celebrity fandom are religions based on Chet’s overly broad definitions…..doesn’t make it true, however.

I’d say that it probably is true, and additionally, it’s a useful way of looking at the phenomenology of those things.

Like when the internet community of anorexic girls began to venerate a figure they called “Ana”, a metaphor for their own eating disorder. They began talking about it like it was a person, and then began to pray to it.

Psychologists tried to treat them like they had a psychosis. They should have tried talking to them like they had a religion. Since, by any working definition, it was.

Comment #168: Chet  on  07/11  at  03:49 PM

The point, which you missed, is that it is possible for people to stop believing in bullshit; atheists do it, thus it must be possible.

I addressed that upthread; you passed over it. And you’re muddying the terminological water even further.

I never said that atheists prove that nobody believes in bullshit, but thank you very much for playing.

Oh, snap. Ain’t village atheist engineers on the internets a blast?

Comment #169: pseudonymous in nc  on  07/11  at  06:45 PM

the thing that struck Taibbi was how the defenders of science on the stand kept nearly perjuring themselves when pressed by the Thomas More lawyers about their feelings on the relationship of science and religion.  It was well understood by witnesses that the big, fat no-no was to ever admit that science directly challenges religion, that rationality directly challenges religion, that to really embrace rational thought results in rejecting the fairy tale about the big guy or gals upstairs.

I’m glad both you and Taibbi noticed that. It makes me extremely uncomfortable, too—it got played out in the recent publication of a creation/evolution book by the NAS as well. I call it Ken Miller Syndrome. Miller is a smart guy and he gives a really good talk, but HE IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF THE MAJORITY OF SCIENTISTS. No one person can be, of course, but whenever the issue of science and religion comes up, who gets propped up before the cameras and microphones? Ken Miller, or some similarly harmless theistic evolutionist. Everyone runs away from the big scary truth: science erodes religion. Science is a better path to knowledge than religion, by an unthinkably wide margin.

But you wouldn’t realize that from the false public face too many scientists try to put on science.

Comment #170: PZ Myers  on  07/12  at  01:32 AM

’d say that it probably is true, and additionally, it’s a useful way of looking at the phenomenology of those things.

Like when the internet community of anorexic girls began to venerate a figure they called “Ana”, a metaphor for their own eating disorder. They began talking about it like it was a person, and then began to pray to it.

Psychologists tried to treat them like they had a psychosis. They should have tried talking to them like they had a religion. Since, by any working definition, it was.

So you’re also saying that if someone is infatuated with their idealized image of a crush, personalize their inanimate possessions to the point they treat them like living persons, or worship any ideas, concepts, or theories…...they are all religious and thus theists??? So…are you saying anyone…even an avowed atheist automatically becomes a religious theist if s(he) develops an idealized crush on someone, personalizes his/her computers to the point s(he) treats them like fellow friends…or family members, or is passionately devoted to the field of thermodynamics??

Such an overbroadened definition of being a religious member/theist means that you’re in danger of defining atheists out of existence.  By the same token, how about all those religious/theists who believe in a theistic deity as a metaphor, yet are actually atheists according to your prior arguments because they do not believe in a living personality ridden deity whose supernatural powers can influence the universe??

Make up your mind, which of these do you subscribe to?!! Are we all atheists by your definition….or all religious theists????

Comment #171: exholt  on  07/13  at  06:04 PM
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