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Next entry: Wingnut, Thou Art Loosed Previous entry: Video: Glenn Beck’s tears of patriotic fervor generated by Vicks Vapo-Rub

Your children will catch the atheist for sure

Oh man, I was listening to the Skepticality podcast, and they opened by playing this news clip about the Charlotte Pop Festival donating its proceeds to the Richard Dawkins Foundation.  And let me just say this video is comedy gold.

It’s hard to say what was the funniest part: The way they tried to make a big deal out of the fact that possible atheists might strum guitars in front of your innocent children, the ominous shots of the word “atheist” on a web site as proof that they are out there and they don’t even hide themselves in shame, the blatant disregard for the idea that promoting science and reason is a legitimate cause, the word “evolutionist” being trotted out as if that denoted a religious stance—-there’s so much to choose from.  I think, though, the thing that really jumps out me the second time I watch this is the interview they did with the woman who didn’t believe in not believing.  How does that work exactly?  Does she not believe that atheists exist?  Or does she not believe that we don’t believe?

I kid.  I know what she means.  The word “believe” is one that needs to be banished from the English language for at least a decade, and then we can revisit the subject and perhaps rerelease it to the public on the grounds that they learn to use it accurately.  Because right now, the word “believe” is used to mean all of the above:

1) Accept on faith.
2) One’s willingness to accept actual evidence.
3) One’s approval of something’s existence.

These meanings come into direct conflict, and confuse the issue.  For instance, when a believer—-a faith-based creationist especially—-says that someone “believes” in evolution, they are using meaning #2, but they are implying that it’s meaning #1, and that all things are equal and god invented antibiotics so they can take them while not “believing” in evolutionary theory, even as medicines developed from understanding it keep them alive.  But #3 is gaining traction in colloquial American English, and that shit needs to stop right now.  I am usually not a language nazi, but whenever I hear someone say, “I don’t believe in abortion” or “I don’t believe in atheism”, I want to ask them if they hear themselves denying that these things even exist.  In the first example, one does have to wonder why people who don’t believe in it want to ban it, since usually we don’t need to outlaw things that don’t exist. Obviously, what they mean is, “I don’t approve, but I don’t want to have an argument about it because I know I’m being an asshole, so I’m going to invoke the language of faith because I know that it’s considered bad manners to criticize someone’s faith to their face.” 


The other part of this woman’s interview that I found hilarious was that she invoked what’s become a right wing article of faith that I’m going to dispute here and now: That people with progressive or rationalist opinions incur a special responsibility to keep those opinions to themselves, and never use art, comedy, or music to express their opinions, and especially never express opinions in forums where fragile wingnuts might be exposed and have their “beliefs” questioned.  Which is what she was saying when she said that no one should express an atheist opinion on stage while singing.  What if their lyrics are atheist, lady?  It does happen.

I’m sure that many people who would trot out this whole line about how atheist musicians shouldn’t express their opinions on stage would claim that they hold everyone to the no-opinions standard equally.  This, of course, is a lie, and John J. Miller aptly demonstrated with his Bono-should-shut-up-praise-soldiers mixed views on this matter.  I guarantee that this woman would have no objection to someone singing about their faith in Jesus, or blessing the audience, or pattering about their love of the Lord between songs.  It’s only rationalists who incur this special obligation, because we’re a minority and because we have the not-full-of-shit advantage, so it feels a little unfair to subject fragile believers to atheist sentiments.  Part of it is no doubt that not many atheists are going to suggest that religious believers are obliged to keep their beliefs out of their work.  We’re not as likely to be ruffled by mere exposure to the contrary opinion, because if that were the case, we’d go mad from the constant, non-stop offense.  When I see such overt fear that atheism is catching, I’m forced to conclude that the people experiencing that fear are scared to death that if they think about atheism for a minute, their fragile belief in god will collapse.  Hey, maybe it will. But that’s not such a bad thing, since you get to sleep in on Sundays, and god can’t punish you because he doesn’t exist.

What was really kind of an interesting feeling for me watching this video is the visceral experience of being fear and loathed for not believing, which is—-believe it or not—-something that doesn’t penetrate my psyche very often.  In fact, watching this video, I gained a new sympathy for atheists who are fighting against oppression.  I don’t, as a general rule, feel oppressed as an atheist.  Which isn’t to say that I don’t think religious freedom is very important, of course.  But I don’t experience someone trying to put prayer in government-sponsored spaces as a direct assault on my rights in the same way that attempts to ban abortion or restrict birth control feel like they spring from overt misogyny.  I hear/read other atheists talk about fearful situations involving coming out, and while I believe them of course, I’m always mildly surprised.  I’ve never felt cold-shouldered or looked down upon.  But watching this video—-seeing the hate and fear emanating off practically everyone in it for these nebulous atheists they’ve been trained to hate and fear—-I get it.  I can see why telling these asswipes would be scary.

It occurs to me that I grew up quite privileged not to be raised religious.  I think there’s basically two kinds of American atheists: people who had to throw off the shackles of religion, and people who never really faced any pressure to have faith.  I grew up in a Bible-thumping area, and most of my friends back then were mainline Christians deeply involved in their churches (I went to a lot of youth groups), and so I got some subtle appeals from friends and overt Bible-thumping nuttery thrown in my face, but my actual family is basically irreligious, though officially tied to the Episcopalian church.  I think I may have even been baptized, but now that I think about it, I have no idea.  Atheists Episcopalians, I’ve since learned, are surprisingly common.  Not that I’m outing anyone—-I have no idea what most of my relatives think, barring the few that have been wooed into some kind of evangelical faith.  But that’s the point.  I have no idea.  I’m sure most of them are agnostic, or apathetic agnostic.  Religion came up for us mostly in two contexts: 1) Marveling at/mocking some of our crazier fundie neighbors and 2) Complaining that church is boring on those occasions when you get roped into it.  A subset of #2 really deserves a category of its own for those of us that live in predominantly Catholic areas: fearing that any Catholic wedding you’ve been invited to is going to involve mass.  Luckily, this isn’t as common as it used to be.

But you run across a lot of atheists for whom political involvement in promoting secularism is a very personal cause, and that has never had emotional resonance for me.  I only really got political about it for the same reason Richard Dawkins did. In fact, it’s almost identical—-always had a sense that religion was kind of stupid (not that religious people were, though—-it’s obvious that very smart people can hold dumb ideas), but the rise of a powerful religious right in America politicized me on this.  Reproductive rights are an especially important aspect, because the arguments against women having them all have an end game that’s religious, because there really aren’t good secular arguments for making women second class citizens.  But now I think I have a better grasp of what it must feel like to be hated and feared just because you don’t believe in any gods, and why that makes the secular cause feel very personally important to a lot of atheists.

 

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Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 06:41 PM • (87) Comments

Does she not believe that atheists exist?  Or does she not believe that we don’t believe?

She doesn’t believe that we don’t believe. She finds the existence of the Invisible Sky Fairy so entirely obvious that anyone who says they don’t believe must be lying, in some immature attempt at rebellion.

/sigh

Comment #1: Dolbia  on  10/02  at  07:01 PM

Jesus freaks suck. I attended church when I was younger & as I got older I kept growing farther & farther away from it. It wasn’t a conscious effort. As I learned more & more about the real world, I realized that all their fairy tales were bullshit (as all fairy tales are, I guess). How some people manage to avoid this process amazes me.

Comment #2: Mark  on  10/02  at  07:03 PM

My partner is of that first group of atheists. So much so that she’s been looking for a loophole that just makes her agnostic so she can come out as something less hated by her family. Basically she’s told me that she’s just as frightened if not more so of coming out to everyone as bi in a poly relationship as she is of coming out as atheist.

In general, the hatred is really palpable if you spend much time with the fundies with almost special focus. You get a lot more of it if you are in biology. You are also dead on with the reason. Fundamentalism is rather openly about exploiting people’s temporary fears and uncertainties to demand tribal loyalties. And it’s reinforced in the culture by a notion of you can’t question yourself or you’ll lose this community, which in many towns or neighborhoods is the actual surrounding community and friendship and familial relationships.

But if people think about religion, what they actually believe, it falls apart. That process of thinking about religion lead my male best friend to become norse pagan (still woo, but hey, it’s something he actually believes in rather than something he was aping). If people were to do that in general and believe in options, it falls apart violently.

In truth, this is also why they hate all differences and so vehemently view the groups as satanic recruiters, because any ounce of truth whether to the options for women other than houseslave/breeder, the options of accepting your sexuality and/or having a relationship of loving equals, the options of believing what you believe rather than what “everyone” believes, etc…

And conformity becomes a harder sell. The atheist one is the most worrying, because the others just ask you to check privilege, but atheism reveals the sham that is how most religious people don’t actually believe any of it, but feel they have no other choice but to pretend for the privileges that come with it. And any loss could spiral into the majority chasers all leaving to something else.

Comment #3: Cerberus  on  10/02  at  07:08 PM

From Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead

Rosencrantz: I don’t believe in it anyway.
Guildenstern: What?
Rosencrantz: England.
Guildenstern: Just a conspiracy of cartographers, then?

Comment #4: Colorado Dave  on  10/02  at  07:13 PM

Reading this makes me very glad I’m a chemist.  At least being ‘outed’ at work isn’t any sort of problem.  Probably half the people I work with are agnostics or atheists - way higher than the general population, and there are no repercussions.  Of course the other fields I’ve sought work in are education (high school level) and politics, and it would be a whole different matter over there.

Comment #5: libdevil  on  10/02  at  07:14 PM

On another note, that broadcast is a main reason I won’t ever live in the South. Yeah, the Jesus freaks live everywhere and their crap certainly gets play on national media and where I used to live had a jesus freak in charge of pretty much all of our print media, but still, the whole antagonistic view of the media to everyone different with that “why are you here?” passive-aggressive shit really pisses me off.

If I lived somewhere where that was the constant tone of all media and social interactions with most locals, it’d drive me nuts.

Comment #6: Cerberus  on  10/02  at  07:15 PM

See, for me most Catholics seem to always hope there’s a mass at the wedding because that can count as mass for the week and can avoid going another day.

Comment #7: Robert  on  10/02  at  07:21 PM

I like to ask, when assholes announce to me that they don’t “believe” in abortion, “what, you mean you think it’s like Sasquatch, or something?”

Comment #8: Bella  on  10/02  at  07:27 PM

This, of course, is a lie, and John J. Miller aptly demonstrated with his Bono-should-shut-up-praise-soldiers mixed views on this matter.

Awesome! We can keep discussing how U2 sucks my ass in *this* thread!!

Seriously, every time I hear “believe in”, I want to blow my fucking brains out.

Comment #9: PhysioProf  on  10/02  at  07:27 PM

apathetic agnostic
That’s “apatheist”.

Comment #10: Wareq  on  10/02  at  07:33 PM

I love this quote from the comments:

And since not everyone agrees that evolution is science and religion is fable, it would have been wrong to base this story on that assumption. Polls show half of Americans don’t believe in evolution—should reporters treat them with respect or just dismiss half the counrty as nitwits?

What a perfect demonstration of Fox News Indoctrination and Brainwashing.  I was also amused that the next commenter said “Nitwits.”

Comment #11: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  10/02  at  07:38 PM

But I don’t experience someone trying to put prayer in government-sponsored spaces as a direct assault on my rights in the same way that attempts to ban abortion or restrict birth control feel like they spring from overt misogyny.

But I don’t think we can ignore the fact that many religions including Christianity are steeped in misogyny. So they push separation of state and church boundaries like school prayer, federally funded faith based programs and abstinence only education, at first.  But I “believe” there is a direct line to those things and government interference with abortion rights.

When I see such overt fear that atheism is catching, I’m forced to conclude that the people experiencing that fear are scared to death that if they think about atheism for a minute, their fragile belief in god will collapse.  Hey, maybe it will.

I think this corresponds well with an earlier Pandagonian post, I think Amanda’s, about how the wingnuts should be afraid of Obama talking to their kids since when they see he’s not the monster they make him out to be the parents lose credibility with the child.

Atheists Episcopalians, I’ve since learned, are surprisingly common. Not that I’m outing anyone

I’ll out myself as an atheist. In my tween and teen years I attended an Episcopal church in San Francisco. The congregation was mostly made of single mothers, their children and gay couples. Many of the gay couples were coming from the Catholic church where they, of course, felt ostracized. There was a joke in the church that the Episcopal church was Catholic-Lite. In my church, where I attended youth groups, the focus was on community not devout Christianity. The youth groups tried to address real teen issues like sex, abuse, birth control and self-esteem. Not that the church was perfect. I didn’t know that gay marriage was illegal until I was in my early 20s because I had attended what I thought were gay weddings officiated over by the priests at my church and one in the church building.  So they never talked about, at least when I was there, that the weddings weren’t state sanctioned.

Comment #12: shakahi  on  10/02  at  07:40 PM

I don’t know if we need to come down too hard on the woman who was interviewed here.  She’s an audience member at an outdoor concert, not a trained media spokesperson.  I actually thought that her tone was relatively mild, except for the “don’t push buttons” part, but even that fairly easily translates to “don’t get me started,” which is basically a way of avoiding making a more specific statement.  It’s impossible to know just what the TV station cut out of that interview or what the interviewer said to provoke her answers.

Still, the whole thing does illustrate how hard it is to promote atheism (and I’m one who thinks that it does need promoting).  It’s hard to sell people on the idea of doing nothing, which is what atheism is.  Atheists share a lack of faith and have no other common denominator—we don’t go to mass on Sunday, we don’t (usually) get married in churches, we don’t baptize our kids; there isn’t anything that we all *do* in particular short of alternating between inhaling and exhaling.  But the fact that this station felt the need to cover this non-story at all is indicative of how defensive people get when they’ve invested a lot of their lives in religion.  What we’re telling them by our mere existence is, in effect, that the pains they’ve gone to, the time they’ve spent, and the assumption of guilt that they’ve lived with their entire lives have amounted to nothing but a kind of empty hobby.  I wouldn’t want to give that up if I had reached adulthood still clinging to all of that baggage.

The promoter of the Pop Fest seems to have taken a pretty diplomatic tack in saying that they’re promoting science, but even science (in spite of the popular discourse around it) is basically indifferent to religion.  It’d be great if, in a situation like this, someone would just come out and say that there’s nothing wrong with being an Atheist.

Comment #13: jTuba  on  10/02  at  07:44 PM

[maudlin 70s singer-songwriter piano sounds] PhysioProf, I believe in you [/maudlin 70s singer-songwriter piano sounds]

Comment #14: Egnu Cledge  on  10/02  at  07:44 PM

Polls show half of Americans don’t believe in evolution—should reporters treat them with respect or just dismiss half the counrty as nitwits?

Yes, actually I think they should. Just like the press should dismiss them if they said that babies came from storks not as a result of a process women go through called pregnancy.

Comment #15: shakahi  on  10/02  at  07:45 PM

11-

I really fucking hate that standard. Well lots of people believe it, that means you need to show respect. And media should present your worldview with said respect.

No, if people believe it and it’s demonstrably wrong, then that is a fucking condemnation of media and they should be running 24/7 specials providing half of america with much needed remedial classes followed up on an in-depth investigation of just how we got an education system so fucked up that people exit unable to comprehend basic reality. It doesn’t mean, we need to be even softer and always present it like a good point from people who are “sincere in their beliefs”.

Also agree with everyone on the “believe in” crap. It definitely is used to subtly infer that you (the complainant) was just being godly and therefore good and just, but this atheist, non-believer devil person just had to get all uppity.

I suspect the automatic jesus exemption from criticism combined with the automatic rightness given to those who proclaim faith is how we got IOKIYAR. Oh it’s not terrorism, it couldn’t be, it’s jesusy and how dare you criticize their faith meaniehead, don’t you know how gosh darn “earnest” they are? Oh what, you say you’re belief that you are a fucking human being worthy of life and anger that it’s not considered as such is “earnest” too? But that can’t be, you’re not all jesusy.

Comment #16: Cerberus  on  10/02  at  07:50 PM

Still, the whole thing does illustrate how hard it is to promote atheism (and I’m one who thinks that it does need promoting).  It’s hard to sell people on the idea of doing nothing, which is what atheism is.

Yes, but….

The concert was for the Richard Dawkins foundation which is going to promote a lot of things besides Atheism (TM). Sadly, in America at least, I read “atheism” as shorthand for “reality-based/naturalist/humanist/non-misogynist/progressive/etc.” simply because it’s always portrayed as the mirror opposite of Christianity.

Comment #17: Egnu Cledge  on  10/02  at  07:52 PM

If I lived somewhere where that was the constant tone of all media and social interactions with most locals, it’d drive me nuts.
Comment #6: Cerberus

Agreed. As someone who lived in the south for 30 years before hightailing it out to the relatively-godless Pacific Northwest, I can tell you, it’s been so worth it. Sure,there are kooks out here, but they are far outnumbered by the sane secularists and apathetic agnostics that they are far quieter.

Comment #18: Keith  on  10/02  at  07:52 PM

She doesn’t believe that we don’t believe. She finds the existence of the Invisible Sky Fairy so entirely obvious that anyone who says they don’t believe must be lying, in some immature attempt at rebellion.

I don’t know if I’d put it the same way, but I get this a good bit from religious and spiritual friends. “You really believe in something, you just won’t/can’t admit it,” is usually the gist of it. Funny thing is it’s come from, at different times, a liberal Catholic college student, a libertarian Asatru adherent, a Wiccan scientist of no fixed political allegiance, and my Reagan Republican Freewill Baptist mother.

I’m not of the right mind to explore it here and now, but I’ve come to the decision that’s all based on the whole “story-telling ape” theory I’ve heard put forth. We like stories. We look at the world and our actions in as a story, and that covers everything from myths and legends to the way we teach our country’s history. Reality doesn’t always follow the plot, though, and that makes people shirty enough. Wrapping one’s head around the idea that if there’s no author, there’s no story and, therefor, no point isn’t the easiest thing when the whole of human history is screaming otherwise.

Gotta admit, “The universe is howling, uncaring chaos and we’re fungus with pretensions” isn’t the cheeriest of thoughts to ponder. Not being terribly upset by that fact seems to be a challenge to some folks’ very reason for belief more than the belief system. All the above people would be perfectly happy if I called myself a Buddhist or a pantheist or follower of Robert Anton Wilson, so long as I believe in something. I compare it to not being afraid of the dark anymore and, all of the sudden, I’m the asshole.

I’ve pretty much given up having the discussion if I can help it, but it still bubbles up. Recent favorite: the reason I’m depressed isn’t because of clinical depression, it’s because “true atheists are never unhappy because they don’t care about anything, therefor it’s all a gag to get girls”. I swear, if I could smack someone via the internet I would have.

Comment #19: Matt T.  on  10/02  at  08:01 PM

Oh and as someone who’s doing a lot of evolutionary biology, it really threw me for a second how they were using evolutionist as a negative and some scare tactic about how he’s “for” “evolution” and therefore raping kids and hypno toad. My first thought was, yes, he is an evolutionary biologist…oh I see what you did there.

Comment #20: Cerberus  on  10/02  at  08:09 PM

When I see such overt fear that atheism is catching, I’m forced to conclude that the people experiencing that fear are scared to death that if they think about atheism for a minute, their fragile belief in god will collapse.  Hey, maybe it will. But that’s not such a bad thing, since you get to sleep in on Sundays, and god can’t punish you because he doesn’t exist.

This describes exactly what I went through. I was raised as a Christian, and kept calling myself a Christian until I was 18 or so, but in the back of my mind, I was always completely aware of how I was suspending logic to keep believing, so every time I thought about atheism, it caused a lot of anxiety and I tried not to just put it out of my mind. Then I went to college, started thinking for myself, and those are exactly the two benefits I always think of first when I consider how nice it is to be an atheist: not worrying about punishment, and getting to sleep in on Sundays.

I also never really felt any atheist-discrimination, probably because I grew up and went to college in the Bay Area. I don’t know exactly how big the atheist contingent is there - certainly the majority of people aren’t atheists - but most people are pretty accepting of it. I moved to Austin a few months ago, and the other day, I casually announced I was an atheist at work (it made sense in context, I wasn’t just announcing it for the hell of it). Then I read this study and thought, “Hm. Maybe I shouldn’t make such announcements in a red state.” So far no fallout except for my boss being like, “Remember when Lauren said she was an atheist? Wasn’t that funny!”

Comment #21: Lauren O  on  10/02  at  08:14 PM

19-

That’s bizarre. Most of the “religious” responses I’ve seen to atheist sadness or depression usually takes the tack of “see, that’s because you don’t believe in Jesus. You’re empty and miserable denying his existence as all atheists are secretly even if they pretend to be otherwise for demonic reasons.

That response sounds like some jealous person who’s an inch from a deconversion or full blown resentment-based wingnuttery. How dare the atheists have fun and non-guilt based interactions with people and not have to go to stupid church and have consequence-free sex? Ooh how I hate them. I mean, it even includes the resentment that you get girls and can do things with them because you aren’t wrapped in abstinence and a radiating sphere of raw misogyny.

Very similar to the anti-gay tack. How dare you have relationships of equals with people you respect and actually enjoy having sex with?

Comment #22: Cerberus  on  10/02  at  08:16 PM

As I get older I see more and more that religious belief does make you think crooked. 

Even if you believe you’re fair and ethical, generally when things go the way your religion thinks they should go, and people who believe as you do get the good end of a deal, you are happy, and when it goes the other way you’re not. 

You are more sympathetic to co-believers.  You think that the universe does, or should, reward people who act the way your religious beliefs (or “spirituality”) wants you to.  When a bad thing happens to someone who believes in some other God or spirituality, or none at all, you are less sympathetic, or down deep think that God or karma is just getting them back.  Something in their head is keeping score.

I really don’t distinguish between the religious and the spiritual here.  Both have a belief that isn’t supported by rational examination, yet makes them think that something about them and the people who share their beliefs is better than some other people who don’t share those beliefs.  It could be a generous thought that everyone should be this way, or a mean one hoping they are one of the few who win the big jackpot.  It doesn’t matter.  It affects the way one thinks about other people in an irrational manner.

Cue believers of every type whining about snotty atheists who think they’re so superior and their shit doesn’t stink.  Newsflash:  everyone’s does.  None of us is blessed in this game, we all just live and die, and imputing an ethical or moral more-deserving status to anyone is silly. 

NB, some atheists are silly enough to fall for it, too, but that doesn’t make it right.

Religious people can feel all tolerant and shit when they allow “good” atheists to exist.  But when those atheists want to speak out about their belief (or lack thereof), their hegemony is challenged to the point that being atheist or agnostic isn’t considered a special case, one where the religious believers must first test the atheist’s morals and then decide they’re good enough to be honorary religious or spiritual people, they become upset, some outraged. 

Society is set up for religious belief as a norm, religious people to be privileged, and if that changes, or even seems challenged, then that tolerance reveals itself to be a sham, and the victim game begins.

You were lucky to be Episcopalian.  I grew up in the Episcopalian church, too, and though I went every week until I was a teen, it didn’t hinder me from atheism.  Episcopalianism is in fact kind of a hotbed of acceptable atheism.  It’s an upper-class thinking-person’s church and often functions socially and ethically outside of a religious role.  Many Episcopalian and Anglican priests and religious are agnostic, some are atheist.

Enjoying the “Blaspheme” button.

Comment #23: oldfeminist  on  10/02  at  08:23 PM

As Mark Twain said, “Faith is when you believe in something that you know ain’t so.”

Comment #24: D.R.Scott  on  10/02  at  08:24 PM

When I was a child, I would check out any and every kind of book from the library.  I loved to learn about new and different things.  So when my brother “snitched” on me about the type of books I was reading, my father sat me down and had a talk.  He forbade me from reading those sorts of books ever again, because they might “lead me down a dark path”.  So, what horrible things were I reading?  Books on sex?  Drugs?  Violence?  Atheism?  No, books on Hinduism, Greek Mythology, the Salem Witch trials, etc.  I was reading books I had found in the religion section, right next to the Bibles.

This is why I’m a secular activist.  Children need to have the freedom to pursue their interests without being told those interests will lead them to be eternally tortured in hell.  My parents are now being forced to understand and tolerate atheism, because I am an atheist.  Before then, they literally had no idea what it meant, and were more inclined to believe in the mainstream view that atheists are those who hold grudges against God.  The more we speak up, the more they hear that we are good people, the less likely another child has to be told that learning and exploring the world around her is immoral.

Comment #25: The Nerd  on  10/02  at  08:32 PM

Gotta admit, “The universe is howling, uncaring chaos and we’re fungus with pretensions” isn’t the cheeriest of thoughts to ponder.

We’re supposed to be the self-absorbed assholes, and they’re the ones who think this entire universe was made *for them*.

BTW, it must be hard to hear the universe howling when you’re in the vacuum of space. wink I think the idea that it is *silent* uncaring chaos is probably more unsettling. In space, nobody can hear you scream… except if some other alien beings have their own SETI program.

Comment #26: BlackBloc  on  10/02  at  08:34 PM

And they’re probably drowning in information too, same as us.

Comment #27: Punditus Maximus  on  10/02  at  08:54 PM

When I see such overt fear that atheism is catching, I’m forced to conclude that the people experiencing that fear are scared to death that if they think about atheism for a minute, their fragile belief in god will collapse.  Hey, maybe it will.

It must be tiring to believe and pretend to be virtuous and feel so much resentment all the time. I don’t blame them for being scared they’re not up to it. I know I’m not.

Comment #28: junk science  on  10/02  at  09:00 PM

I don’t think it’s fear that atheism is catching as much as it is dismay that the money is going towards something other than they originally thought it was.

I’ll be honest- I don’t think the proceeds from this concert should go to the Dawkins Foundation, but not because atheism is eeeeeeeevil. I’m sorry if I’m misunderstanding the situation, but it sounds as if people who bought the tickets and the bands performing didn’t know what the money was going to until pretty late in the game, and that’s pretty dishonest on the part of the organizers, especially since last year, the money went to a children’s charity. Helping impoverished children is pretty noncontroversial, but donating money to an atheist foundation because it promotes science is absolutely no better than donating to an anti-abortion Christian group, claiming that it saves lives.

If you’re going to have a concert donating money to the Dawkins Foundation, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that if the concertgoers are upfront about it. But repurposing an existing concert that previously donated to a different charity isn’t the way to do it.

I’m sure, based on this comment, that people are going to call me a wingnut, but in fact I’m a staunch liberal. I know I’d be pissed if a concert I’d attended the previous year, which had donated to a children’s charity, decided to donate to an anti-abortion Christian group the following year. What these concertgoers are doing is no different.

Comment #29: Ktkid  on  10/02  at  09:05 PM

Meant to say “concert organizers” in the last sentence.

Comment #30: Ktkid  on  10/02  at  09:08 PM

“how dare you criticize their faith meaniehead”

I think the way it used to work was if someone seems to be really earnest about something its polite to give a fair hearing to them and to take them seriously because they are another human being and that’s what you do. People generally have the good grace to not waste your time with crap that they know is crap.

In most conversations most people try to be as truthful, informative as necessary while keeping the length of their contribution down so that the other person can respond. If most conversation were not like this society wouldn’t really function. Naturally some people aren’t really interested in having conversations, they like shutting them down. However if they tell everyone to shut up they will be expelled from society so our friends in the faith based community choose to abuse the way conversations are supposed to work to prevent conversations occurring. They know people will listen because people expect that their response will have some impact on the other person speaking and they know that the people will generally assume that they are being upfront about what they are saying (unless they live in New York).

If England saying “how dare you criticize their faith meaniehead” is actually pretty valid because the religious in general don’t try to shut down conversations (excluding the inevitibale loony toons). You don’t mess with people about their faith because life in the secular (real) world is difficult enough. In the states its code for “you must shut up now” and it makes the media in the states really weird. Everyone sort of senses the aggression in “Oh My GOD the atheists are coming, they are so offensive” but to respond to that you do have to be pretty confrontational to be able to respond at all. Most people don’t like confrontations, sure they are sometimes inevitable, but most of the time you can see what the other person sees and she/he what you see and you come to some kind of compromise or resolve the situation. Your faith crowd don’t want that, they want the confrontation to end with the opposition shutting up, chickening out because it just isn’t worth it or awesome violence.

What I’m trying to get at is the content is filler because the point is “Shut up or fight because its me before you”, the rightness or wrongness of any position isn’t in any way important. It wrecks my head when i think about it because the way they do it is so strategic because to actually state that is to expel oneself from any social setting and doing so undermines every social norm while making use of them simultaneously.

Comment #31: pharmakos  on  10/02  at  09:09 PM

Another lapsed episcopalian here, but more serious. Took theology classes in high school, and was captivated by the radical theologians’ notion that it was precisely the fact that there was no room for god in a world successfully based on science that made the leap of faith so cool. But when I leapt, god never talked to me… (These nutters are even doing religion right, they’re some kind of cult.)

But yeah, the thing about it that’s so annoying is that the christianists don’t extend the same respect to other ways of seeing the world (especially the fact-based ones, but pretty much any other ones) that they insisted be given to them. If they did, imagine how different public discourse would be.

And perhaps the most annoying of all of those “I don’t believe in…” constructions is the notorious “I don’t believe in the homosexual lifestyle.” Uh. I’ve come to think that maybe underneath it’s some kind life-imitating-art with the SF&F;trope that gods gain mana from the belief/desire of their followers, and that a god without true believers eventually withers away.

Comment #32: paul  on  10/02  at  09:16 PM

I know of at least a few fellow non-believers at work.  I’ve met more than I thought I would when I moved back to the Midwest.  I still usually steer clear of religious conversations partly because I’m already considered weird enough and partly because I sometimes fear my own defensiveness.  It would offend people if they knew what I really thought of their beliefs and if they pushed me, I might tell them.

I don’t understand how one can be a fully developed moral agent if one still relies on an authority figure to dictate morality instead of carefully considering the effects of one’s actions on the common good.

Comment #33: semi_factual  on  10/02  at  09:25 PM

semi_factual:

in the world of sane believers (yep, I think it’s not completely an oxymoron) this question has been around for centuries, and some theologians have actually come up with semi-plausible answers. (Essentially that the deity intends the common good, and working toward it is always a good idea, and that if the world temporarily doesn’t seem to be working out that way it’s because there are wheels within wheels.) Of course the christianist wingnuts ignore all of that and go with simple rules, lots of transgressions and really good makeup sex—er, forgiveness from the Lord after suitable repentance.

And it’s not the authority figure, imo, that makes the difference. Look at all the atheist and agnostic jerkwads who have taken social darwinism to their chilly little hearts.

Comment #34: paul  on  10/02  at  09:35 PM

I’ve been exploring Quakerism as a compromise between my conservative Christian background and my tendency towards agnosticism.  I’m pleasantly surprised to find they are like the Episcopalians mentioned above and the Unitarian Universalists: they come in all flavors, which makes me feel there’s a place for me.  What I believe is up to me, I’m perfectly content if your mileage varies from mine, and it’s not my business what you believe or don’t believe.  For Pete’s sake, isn’t faith supposed to be an individual thing?  Otherwise it’s only community - what I call cultural Christianity.

I like to ask, when assholes announce to me that they don’t “believe” in abortion, “what, you mean you think it’s like Sasquatch, or something?”
Comment #8: Bella on 10/02 at 06:27 PM

Bella, I’m soooo stealing that line next time I hear someone saying “I don’t believe in [some real-life behavior].”

Comment #35: NobleExperiments  on  10/02  at  10:03 PM

Some idiot fundy had her panties in a tight wad because my kids started asking lots of questions when her kids handed them Jack Chick for Kids pamphlets at the Oregon State Fair.

I pointed out that my kids had a right to ask questions when presented with unsolicited material ... but that she had no right to be upset about that when she was having her kids push their/her views on other people’s kids without parental permission! Or a permit.

When she started in on me, I told her that she better back off or I would have her thrown out.

What is wrong with these jerks.  They think they can pollute OUR kids all day long with their Hellblather, but that our kids can’t question it or talk back or their kids might doubt?  What kind of faith is that?

Comment #36: Ms Kate  on  10/02  at  10:21 PM

Still, the whole thing does illustrate how hard it is to promote atheism (and I’m one who thinks that it does need promoting).  It’s hard to sell people on the idea of doing nothing, which is what atheism is.  Atheists share a lack of faith and have no other common denominator—we don’t go to mass on Sunday, we don’t (usually) get married in churches, we don’t baptize our kids; there isn’t anything that we all *do* in particular short of alternating between inhaling and exhaling. ...
Comment #13: jTuba on 10/02 at 06:44 PM

Colleagues have made the same argument, which is why the UU seems to be in the process of becoming more popular among atheists - you get your “spiritual” (and quotes around that only because it seems a catchall word) views respected then, and an official community.  Others have taken to calling themselves secular humanists instead of atheists…and then there are also places like campquest.org for secular/atheist kiddies, if you haven’t heard of it.

Comment #37: phylosopher  on  10/02  at  10:28 PM

I am so glad I live in a normal part of the country.  Where your religious beliefs (or lack thereof) are your own business and no one particularly cares, and being an atheist wouldn’t be in the least bit controversial.  It just amazes me that parts of this country are so bass-ackwards, and it also amazes me that people who live in those areas don’t even realize how far off the norm they are.

Comment #38: Susanne  on  10/02  at  10:32 PM

Colleagues have made the same argument, which is why the UU seems to be in the process of becoming more popular among atheists - you get your “spiritual” (and quotes around that only because it seems a catchall word) views respected then, and an official community.

I found a home for many years (until I simply became too busy) at the Ethical Society in two different cities.  Google “Ethical Society”, “Ethical Culture” or “American Ethical Union”—they will all lead you to the same places.  Like UUs with a secular bent, but coming from a different tradition.  Good people, interesting discussion, occasionally good food.

Comment #39: xebecs  on  10/02  at  11:16 PM

1) Accept on faith.
2) One’s willingness to accept actual evidence.
3) One’s approval of something’s existence.

These meanings come into direct conflict, and confuse the issue.  For instance, when a believer—-a faith-based creationist especially—-says that someone “believes” in evolution, they are using meaning #2, but they are implying that it’s meaning #1, and that all things are equal and god invented antibiotics so they can take them while not “believing” in evolutionary theory, even as medicines developed from understanding it keep them alive.

This is a good point. I wonder, however, if there is another angle. I wonder if the faith-based creationists who talk about secularists “belief in evolution” actually aren’t implying anything, but straightforwardly stating that the belief is of type 1 (acceptance on faith). I agree that the ambiguity inherent in the word confuses the issue, but I think that this statement also might show a speaker who actually considers “evolution” to be a religion. This isn’t the first time I’ve heard that concept.

Comment #40: atheist  on  10/03  at  12:00 AM

I’m lucky to live in Canada where we have lots of atheists so it is no big deal.  However, I used to have to travel to Huntsville, Alabama for business and I found it quite shocking.  Between the Bibles littering employees’ desks, the hate mail to co-workers who were not toeing the party line and the non-stop fundie programming on the radio, I couldn’t wait to get out of there.  After every visit, I actually felt dirty, as if I had been wading in a particularly noxious swamp.

Comment #41: AlisonS  on  10/03  at  12:08 AM

I grew up in Arkansas, going to high school in a rural area of the Ozarks, and I grew up irreligious.  I had my driver’s ed teacher use Pascal’s Wager (albeit not knowing that’s what it was) on me in class.

Even without religious indoctrination in the home, my atheism was forged in a hostile environment.  I believe pretty strongly in loudly, vocally standing up to these people who treat atheists like they’re automatically evil, in a way they wouldn’t dare treat other people of faith so openly.

Comment #42: Ferox  on  10/03  at  02:30 AM

#42 Sure they would.  A lot of those same people who hate on atheism are just as eliminationist with regard to Islam, Wicca, Judaism, Mormonism, heck, for some of them even Catholicism.  The only difference seems to be that when the crazies shout to kill all the Jews, most folks crinkle their nose in disgust (mostly at their bad manners for saying it aloud, not so much for the sentiment).  When they shout the same about atheists, the disinterested masses mostly just nod their head.  8 years of propaganda has nearly put Islam in the same category of mindless hatred, but it’s still not as despised by the ‘Murkan public as atheism.

Comment #43: libdevil  on  10/03  at  02:49 AM

I always say I’m convinced by the evidence for evolution rather than I ‘believe in’ evolution.
It might be slightly longer to say but on the plus side it has the word ‘evidence’ in it.

Comment #44: Childe O' Grace  on  10/03  at  02:54 AM

[maudlin 70s singer-songwriter piano sounds] PhysioProf, I believe in you [/maudlin 70s singer-songwriter piano sounds]

“Rant us a rant, you’re the athiest.
Rant us a rant tonight.
Well we’re all in the mood for some invective.
And you look like you’re wound pretty tight.”

Comment #45: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/03  at  03:02 AM

wonder if the faith-based creationists who talk about secularists “belief in evolution” actually aren’t implying anything, but straightforwardly stating that the belief is of type 1 (acceptance on faith).

Oh, definitely. If you feel like laughing incredulously and semi-hysterically until you throw up, sometime, Google “evolution is a religion” and see where that takes ya.

Comment #46: kristin  on  10/03  at  04:24 AM

Wow, apparently Episcopalianism is the launching point of choice for atheism! Who knew? I stopped going to our Episcopal church as a kid when my Sunday school stopped giving us hot chocolate. Hell, it’s not like I was there for the preaching! (It wasn’t just the chocolate, of course; it was me stretching my logic and my freewill a bit, and not liking the whole religious scene at *all* upon closer examination.)

My “descent” into sorta agnosticism/sorta atheism wasn’t particularly hostile; my mom was ticked off when I quit Sunday school ‘cause she thought that I just wanted to sleep in and that it wasn’t actually an issue of belief for me. She insisted that I still get up at the same time in the morning on Sunday and do something self-improving for an hour if I was going to skip church (she wanted to make sure I really meant it), and after a few months of me steadfastly doing so she came around and let me do as I liked. smile I appreciate that, once she was convinced that I *did* have actual moral/philosophical reasons for not going to church, she tolerated my “belief” in not going to church pretty respectfully.

Now we have a fairly comfortable truce; she doesn’t try to proselytize at all and I take her prayers for me in the spirit in which they are given (lovingly, and very much “it’s the thought that counts.”)

(She does sometimes get offended on behalf of other “Christians” that I bitch about, however. I often have to remind her that it’s not about the religion itself, necessarily, and not about her; it’s about assholes who use Christianity as a tool to hurt other people.)

Comment #47: Bagelsan  on  10/03  at  05:35 AM

This is sooo far away from everything I knew growing up; my family is about as irreligious as can be(other than my father’s right-winger American cousins that i don’t really know), i’m not baptized, and I grew up in France, where people don’t care. I have two non-atheist friends, one Muslim and one Catholic, and that’s about it. Now I’m in Taipei and meeting lots of Americans and Australians and the like and I’m so not used to knowing people who actually go to church and Bible study and stuff; it’s fascinating^^
Atheism is more normal for me than being religious, strangely enough.

Comment #48: Froufrou  on  10/03  at  08:09 AM

Susanne @ 38, in fairness, these are usually parts of the country with poor social services, where a great deal of the civic organization comes through churches. While I hated having to keep my mouth shut about religion the whole time I lived in Appalachia, I did eventually recognize that it was about all a lot of people had going on outside of work, and it was the only place a lot of people were receiving and giving things like food aid and fuel aid in the winter and someone to drive you to the hospital. Think of the Southern church as, in many cases, co-op shit-happening-to-you insurance. I’m really not sure what would replace it if secularism really caught on.

Pepito @ 1, I think a lot of people who are religious are people who go into mild euphoric trance states really easily. If you look at modern evangelical hymns, for example, they’re all very very simple - just two or three lines chanted over and over. It seems to be historically true across cultures that chanting puts some people into a state where they experience joy and a sense of comunitas. I don’t think there’s anything particularly weak-minded about getting caught up in group euphoria, but it does make communication hard between people who don’t experience that (or experience it at secular concerts only, thank you kindly) and people who really do Feel Jesus in Their Hearts. (I am saying this as someone who has literally held onto her chair during some altar calls to avoid getting saved by accident, so I probably have a minority perspective on this.)

Comment #49: purpleshoes  on  10/03  at  09:21 AM

Not to take any glory fromthe Episcopalian-atheist-launching pad, but the recent poll showing 15% of Americans are godless also stated that over a third of them were CATHOLIC until at least age 13.

Nyah! 

Damn hard to break out of it, but getting even harder to stay in.

Comment #50: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  10/03  at  09:44 AM

Pepito @ 1, I think a lot of people who are religious are people who go into mild euphoric trance states really easily. If you look at modern evangelical hymns, for example, they’re all very very simple - just two or three lines chanted over and over. It seems to be historically true across cultures that chanting puts some people into a state where they experience joy and a sense of comunitas.

What’s funny is, I think I’m one of those people. Maybe if I had been raised in Appalachia, I’d be a chrisitan now.

Comment #51: atheist  on  10/03  at  10:49 AM

Another who grew up Episcopalian.  I never had any issue with it till I move down South.  Apparently down here Episcopalians worship Jesus.  Who knew?  Certainly not me.  And you might think sometime in the 20+ years I went I’d have noticed. 

The churches here are all into who can out-retro who.  It’s nasty.  The one that was way too backwards for me just branched off wit a group that don’t want the high-church with the pretentious incense (me neither- that church is nasty), the backwards one based on the 1928 book of prayer just isn’t backwards enough, so they had to form another.

The good side is all the crap made me realize I never did believe in the Jeezus, so I could examine all that and move on.  So- bless the posers and pretentious, for they shall free the disbelievers.

Comment #52: drachonfire  on  10/03  at  10:51 AM

I really admire the atheists who had to deal with constantly being dissed or harassed by Christians while they were growing up. I grew up in a secular town and did not have to deal with that (much). I even more admire the atheists who were religious at one time, but decided that they did not believe. These folks, and clips like the one Amanda posted, help me to realize how embattled atheism really in this nation.

Comment #53: atheist  on  10/03  at  10:57 AM

“these are usually parts of the country with poor social services, where a great deal of the civic organization comes through churches. “

This is one of the reasons why so many hardcore religious types on the political right are so dead-set against the state having a compassionate / social welfare role.  If people can look to the government to ensure that, say, they don’t starve or have decent daycare then the aren’t forced into the churches as the only option, and “being forced” is pretty much the default setting for asshole religionists of all stripes.  It’s a form of market control combined with blackmail, really.

Comment #54: seeker6079  on  10/03  at  11:18 AM

There’s another aspect to it. Not in any way to deny or minimize the previously discussed assholery involved, but a big part of this, especially from people who were raised Christian from birth, is that they cannot conceive of any ethical system not based on religion.

For most Christians, they are taught that all people are inherently evil, fallen, untrustworthy, and dangerous, and only their interaction with God keeps them from being raving sociopaths. They think they believe that all laws are based on religion, all government is based on religion, and all fair play and decent treatment is based on religion. The ONLY thing keeping people from pitching all that is the fear of eternal damnation.

So atheism is for a lot of these people utter anarchic nihilism. They don’t see it as people advocating logic and tolerance, they see it as people trying to make their Leave It To Beaver world into something straight out of the Mad Max movies.

And that doesn’t even include the extreme people for whom Satan is a real entity poised at the gates to pour literal demons into the world the moment the prayer level drops below some minimum that is keeping them at bay.

All based on the teachings of someone who said that the highest law is Love Your Neighbor.

Nitwits doesn’t begin to cover it.

Comment #55: Lymis  on  10/03  at  11:36 AM

@55: This.  So absolutely this.

I went to a small college in Arkansas, small enough that most of the student body knew who I was, and I had occasional acquaintances come up to me while I was reading and ask, straight-up, how I got anything done as an atheist, since my life was devoid of meaning and all.  I’d just explain that I liked the same things they liked, nice food and good conversation and sexytimes, and I didn’t really need anything else to get me out of bed each morning.

The best cure for this idea that only religion can keep you moral, and only religion can give your life meaning, is to just be an out atheist.  And not be a sociopath, I guess, but that just comes naturally to most people.

Comment #56: Ferox  on  10/03  at  11:45 AM

Thanks for that, seeker6079 (@54); I’ve heard for years about the Godless Europeans and how they’ve turned their back on the church, but I hadn’t put it together with their high level of social services. 

Like Ferox, I grew up in Arkansas, and the church is truly the social safety net: that’s where you go to meet your friends, borrow a couple of bucks until payday, get a bag of groceries…. and, in fairness, to donate those things if you have extra.  There isn’t any government social services to speak of. 

The one time I was desperate enough to apply for food stamps, the women behind the counter were so nasty to the person in front of me that I decided I wasn’t that desperate and walked out.  In fact, my sister’s church helped me out during that time.

I just now occurred to me that those hateful government workers might have been deliberately trying to prove the Republican mantra = the government really isn’t here to help you - by demonstrating it.

Comment #57: NobleExperiments  on  10/03  at  12:30 PM

I guarantee that this woman would have no objection to someone singing about their faith in Jesus, or blessing the audience, or pattering about their love of the Lord between songs.

Or “God bless America,” for crying out loud.

I was raised irreligious but attended Catholic elementary school with catechism classes (accident of geography) and minored in Religion with a Christianity emphasis—so this atheist has had her exposure and read the bible cover-to-cover not once but twice (the argument that atheists are atheists because of lack of exposure to The Word or ignorance of religion is irritating as hell).  And though thumpers are super rare in my region, and most church-goers here are pretty “lapsed” (holiday/wedding/funeral), admitting I’m an atheist definitely catches double-takes even here (urban Canadian centre).  I have felt something in the air—not fear or hate, but massive disapproval and pity.  Sudden mistrust, even though I’m so ethical I return cash-stuffed wallets whenever I find them.

Actually this brings up a question I’d like to put to Pandagonians: last year I hosted Thanksgiving supper at my place, and my mother wanted to say grace (these are people who only think to say grace at Thanksgiving and Xmas dinner, and never go to church unless someone’s getting wed or dead).  I submitted to it, but I was actually irritated at my mother for “bringing religion” into my home—my sanctuary—when she damn well knows the husband and I are atheist/agnostic.  I probably shouldn’t have felt disrespected, but I did—as someone who is always patient and respectful of religious traditions in public or other people’s homes.  That is, is there NO spot on earth where my own preferences are privileged? or does religion/tradition trump the atheist’s prerogative every time, even in her own home, her one little spot?

This Thanksgiving (next weekend) I’m hosting again, and when (not if) the grace thing comes up, I want to interject and suggest we go around the table and do the “things I’m thankful for” game in lieu of prayer (which is especially empty coming from them).  Thoughts?  Am I over-sensitive?  Or is it a reasonable request?  How should I approach this?

Comment #58: Ranylt  on  10/03  at  02:19 PM

Backing up Caren here.  My pet theory is that the angry atheists are those who were raised Catholic.  Apathetic (for lack of a better word before coffee) atheists seem to be former Episcopalians.  In my own experience, the people who joined the atheist groups and the people who won’t respect even non-crazy belief in god are former Catholics.  Whereas the former Episcopalians are just “eh, there’s no god”.

I think it’s because Catholicism goes for beyond the god fairy tale and into miracles and virgin births and no, seriously dude, this is *totally* literally Jesus you are actually eating right now.  When you figure out there’s no god, you also have to figure out that there’s an entire portion of your mental energy that was expended over the cognitive dissonance between “huh, this tastes fairly vegetarian, if not vegan” and “but they promise me it’s the actual meat of Jesus”.

I’ve always mildly been interested in joining a UU congregation for the community, but the fear of joining a group that, no matter how mild is tied in some manner to some concept of some god really just scares me.  I’m curious if other former Catholic atheists avoid UU versus former Catholics who still believe in god.

Comment #59: Rachel,II  on  10/03  at  02:29 PM

RanyIt, I think that’s a fantastic idea.  I hope that if I ever host a dinner at my home, I will have the confidence to refuse to allow any of my guests to publicly pray over a meal that I provided for them.  Please report back and let us know how that went down, if you remember!

Along that theme, I tend to be a cranky atheist around every single holiday because of the push to include Jesus in everything, yes even Christmas.  Christmas could be a decent secular holiday to celebrate winter, join around the hearth in the homes of people we love, offer them gifts to represent our love, bring general cheer to otherwise dreary time of year.  But, in my family, it turns into a worship of cheap plastic crap putting people further into debt while also reminding people that Jesus requires us to pretend to be happy during it all.  I want to reclaim Thanksgiving as the original secular holiday.

Comment #60: Rachel,II  on  10/03  at  02:38 PM

chanting puts some people into a state where they experience joy and a sense of comunitas

Neurologists doing fMRIs have identified the section of brain responsible for this.

There’s a switch in the deep brain whose job it is to recognize Self from Not Self. In infants, this switch is off: for babies, they themselves are the world entire. It takes some development before the switch is on, and one can then recognize that the rest of the world is Not Me. In adults, prayer, chanting or meditation can lead to a quiet-enough mental state wherein one can turn that switch off, and hence experience Oneness with the Universe, or Communion with God, or whatever you wanna call it, where Not Self and Self are perceived as the same.

Science!

Comment #61: benvolio  on  10/03  at  03:08 PM

RanyIt:

Could you diffuse the situation by making it clear beforehand that you and your guests will be doing the gratitude thing?  You know, “Hey, spouse and I had a great idea that we’d like to make into our tradition, etc. etc. etc.”  Depending on your mother, you could also talk to her and let her know that you actually don’t want grace being said at Thanksgiving.  It could help smooth over that inevitable awkward pause when your mother offers to say grace, and you turn her down.

Comment #62: Karinna A.  on  10/03  at  03:53 PM

I’m late to the party, but let me get this straight…

Musicians play at Event A, the proceeds of which will go to an atheist foundation.

Then they play at Event B, a larger event that has nothing to do with Event A and will give no money to promote atheism.

So the objection is…what, exactly? That they picked up atheist cooties at A and will infect the crowd at B?

Comment #63: Bitter Scribe  on  10/03  at  04:26 PM

Benvolio, serious question:  is that experience similar to being high?  Or being on acid?

Comment #64: Rachel,II  on  10/03  at  04:37 PM

Experiencing ambivalence here…

On the one hand, I stand wholeheartedly behind Amanda’s determination that people ought to believe/not believe without any outside coercion and with her against nastier aspects of those who use religious arguments to justify oppression…. of any sort.

On the other hand, I feel the the judgments about religion being ‘stupid’ and ‘smart people holding dumb ideas’ is gratuitous. After all, that’s the mirror image of the judgments anxious believers cast on you.

Having said that I think there’s a lot of outsider misapprehension about Christian beliefs. Reading the post and comments it sounds as if many of you see Christianity as some undifferentiated mass. We aren’t. The vehemence hurled at atheists is matched by the vehemence hurled at those deemed apostate. Church fights can get exceedingly nasty.

But there’s a whole chicken and egg argument that lurks unexamined beneath the surface. Which came first—the screwed up beliefs or the screwed up believers? And in my experience (dealing with this from the inside) it’s the screwed up believers. Before I (as conveyor of belief) have any impact on anybody, there is mom and dad. Given that 1/6 the population has a diagnosable mental illness and the vast majority of the rest of us are limping along with some damn neurosis or another, let’s give credit where credit is due—our fucked-upness is handed down to us by mom and dad, who got it from their parents and so on back through the mists of time immemorial (which predates any organized religion… or disorganized for that matter either.)

You can ask where that comes from (I’mkind of partial to Barbara Ehrenreich’s interpretation in Blood Rites where she posits it stems from those millions of years of our hominid ancestor’s trauma of being cat food (or dog food or bear food)).

In my experience, screwed up believers graviatate towards screwed up beliefs as their way of making sense of the world, and more importantly, as their way of managing their basic anxiety about life.

A common false perception about faith is that it is all about comfort. Well, comfort is part of the story, but so too is correction and challenge, the “hey, you screwed up and need to figure out a way to make amends, part of the deal.

Oh, and as for me, I was a chemistry major in college and felt as if God were dragging me kicking and screaming into this vocation. I often still feel that way, but cannot imagine myself being other than where I am. Faith, you see, begins and is anchored in experience. The beliefs are attempts to make sense of that experience.

Comment #65: revrick  on  10/03  at  04:43 PM

In my experience, screwed up believers graviatate towards screwed up beliefs as their way of making sense of the world, and more importantly, as their way of managing their basic anxiety about life.

A common false perception about faith is that it is all about comfort. Well, comfort is part of the story, but so too is correction and challenge, the “hey, you screwed up and need to figure out a way to make amends, part of the deal.

True, and I’m sympathetic to that.  But similar to people trying to blame vaccines for their kids’ autism, the more people they convince to believe the same thing, the more harm they are doing to society at large.  Adults capable of rational thinking who refuse to do so because they need comfort and sense should not be defended/encouraged by society at large just as people who need to find a cause for their kids’ illnesses and focus on vaccines shouldn’t be supported by society at large.  If you need to have a security blanket in your heart, I’m all for that, but you shouldn’t have the confidence to tell other people your crazy beliefs and think they will be taken seriously.

Comment #66: Rachel,II  on  10/03  at  04:54 PM

“Actually this brings up a question I’d like to put to Pandagonians: last year I hosted Thanksgiving supper at my place, and my mother wanted to say grace “

I don’t know how successful it would be, but you might consider presenting it to her in a metaphor she might get: If she accepted a dinner invitation to a Jewish home, would she insist on saying grace that included praising Jesus as savior?

It really isn’t any different. It isn’t that hard to see the “I’m thankful for” process as being something that religious people can see as being thankful to God, and non-religious people can simply see as being thankful.

It’s like public prayers at, say, a football game. A “May all the players be safe from injury” can be seen as prayer or not, as the captive audience sees fit. A “We pray, oh Heavenly Father, that through the mercy of your Son our Lord, these players be safe from injury” can’t.

Comment #67: Lymis  on  10/03  at  05:47 PM

’ve always mildly been interested in joining a UU congregation for the community, but the fear of joining a group that, no matter how mild is tied in some manner to some concept of some god really just scares me.  I’m curious if other former Catholic atheists avoid UU versus former Catholics who still believe in god.
Comment #59: Rachel,II on 10/03 at 01:29 PM

My queasiness at getting involved in another religion were pretty much laid to rest when I attended a secular event at the nearest UU church and found that the current pastor/minister was agnostic.  His father, the former pastor (?) was an atheist.  Haven’t joined, mainly due to geography and other commitments, but should I find the time, I think I might.

Comment #68: phylosopher  on  10/03  at  06:26 PM

@ ranylt:  the John Powers (follower of Frances Lappe, diet for a small planet)  cookbook and vegan manifesto is full of what my family calls table poems - they’re secular acknowledgments of the effort put into the food, or the process of growing it, etc.  But your idea is neat, too.  Pre-emption is wonderful in not having to deal with the pushy theist.

Here’s one:

A secular grace

For what we are about to receive

let us be truly thankful

…to those who planted the crops

…to those who cultivated the fields

…to those who gathered the harvest.

For what we are about to receive

let us be truly thankful

to those who prepared it and those who served it.

In this festivity let us remember too

those who have no festivity

those who cannot share this plenty

those whose lives are more affected than our own

by war, oppression and exploitation

those who are hungry, sick and cold

In sharing in this meal

let us be truly thankful

for the good things we have

for the warm hospitality

and for this good company.

Amen

© Bill Logan 2001

Comment #69: phylosopher  on  10/03  at  06:35 PM

Which came first—the screwed up beliefs or the screwed up believers? And in my experience (dealing with this from the inside) it’s the screwed up believers.

I think that’s true some of the time, like when sexist American assholes gravitate to an extremist version of Christianity or Islam because it validates their hatred of women. However as Amanda has pointed out in other posts, religions go in search of people to “screw up.” The anti-choicers do this when they find an angry man that was just dumped by a woman who had an abortion. He’s angry, he’s hurt, he is not mentally ill. Instead of helping him heal and move on they exacerbate his anger. They give him a lot of attention. They tell him “It’s not your fault the relationship went bad, it’s that baby killer’s fault.” And as you can imagine when a person is hurt and angry that can be too seductive to pass up. Added Bonus: He doesn’t have to examine his own faults or character flaws. Or how his own behavior contributed to the break up.

Comment #70: shakahi  on  10/03  at  06:48 PM

The thing I always think when someone says they don’t “believe in” evolution is - how could it NOT happen?  In what world could it not be a consequence of reality?

Comment #71: saraeanderson  on  10/03  at  07:01 PM

My theory is that the appellation “angry” gets applied to any atheist who opens their mouth about atheism.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Comment #72: MAJeff, the God of Biscuits  on  10/03  at  08:32 PM

I really think “angry” is an honest adjective for some atheists, or at least myself and other former Catholics I know.  I get literally pissed off when I think about the emotional turmoil I dealt with before figuring out that a god doesn’t exist.  How many hours I did I spend genuinely trying not to think after Confession and then inevitably have the first thing I think be a sin and worrying about dying before I could.  Sitting in my room intentionally not doing anything fun because I was worrying that reading or watching tv or playing with my dog or my sister would constitute worshiping a god other than God.  Hell, my habits of self-injury have their roots in going to church because of all the harping on letting people slap your other cheek and saints self-flagellating and accepted torture to get closer to god and perverted itself into me pulling out chunks of skin with my fingernails when I wasn’t focusing enough on how great God was.  This wasn’t uncommon in my Catholic school and this was all before I turned ten years old.  So yeah, I think about how much we were emotionally abused by the church and how much the church’s role in my young life was encouraged by adults who, by virtue of being capable of rational thought more than an 8-year-old is, should have known better, and I get enraged by people who insist that religion has any moral place in society today.

And you know, those are such minor issues in my life that to tie them to what I learned in church is almost unfair.  At no point were we told or encouraged to hurt ourselves and I’m sure our teachers would all be horrified at what a few of us were doing.  But I was told that Jesus is so super fantastic that these other people loved him so much that they let themselves be killed and tortured without even thinking about recanting their faith, just in word alone, and that I should admire them.  What do you think a generic child will do to make the grown-ups in their lives happy after they hear these stories?  Especially god, the granddaddy of all grown-ups?

So yeah, I’m genuinely sorry if my rage at religion/religious people gives happier atheists a bad name.

Comment #73: Rachel,II  on  10/03  at  09:23 PM

i only wish that children could catch atheism. i am an atheist. i have 2 beautiful, intelligent, feminist daughters (12 and 13) and for some reason (though their father, their stepfather and I are all atheists) they claim to believe in god, and have since they were very small.

Comment #74: sophiefair  on  10/03  at  09:26 PM

Uh-huh. My theory is that the appellation “angry” gets applied to any atheist who opens their mouth about atheism.

I thought that was feminism.

(At this point I have the urge to suggest that God would want some little ladies have a cat fight in lime jello to sort it out)

Comment #75: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/03  at  10:04 PM

I really think “angry” is an honest adjective for some atheists, or at least myself and other former Catholics I know.  I get literally pissed off when I think about the emotional turmoil I dealt with before figuring out that a god doesn’t exist.

I think that for some of us who have left the church-as-social-fabric there are also unresolved feelings about our particular church (whichever one it might be) as an entity. When I chose the hymns for my parents’ funerals, I was sad that a bunch of my favorites from the 1940 hymnal were gone. And I was pissed that the priest who officiated at my mother’s funeral played politics to exclude the retired pastor she’d been closest to, and ran the whole service as close to pre-Vatican II catholicism as he could. Not my beliefs, so I shouldn’t care, but in some sense my ethnic group, so I still do…

Comment #76: paul  on  10/03  at  11:06 PM

Benvolio, serious question:  is that experience similar to being high?  Or being on acid?

I don’t know. The research I read was done with practioners of Transcendental Meditation and nuns (for the prayer). One could extrapolate that neurological changes caused by pharmacological agents might produce the same effect, but I’m gonna guess and say that funding for studies doing fMRIs of people tripping might be hard to come by….

Comment #77: benvolio  on  10/04  at  12:07 AM

but I’m gonna guess and say that funding for studies doing fMRIs of people tripping might be hard to come by….

I’m sure you’re right but I think it would be beneficial for them to study just because of the pain management implications. They’ve experimented with using mushrooms for migraines. They teach chronic pain patients, like myself, how to meditate to manage pain. If those nuns are triggering a spot in the brain that could be triggered with a medication it could be a great non-opioid pain killer.

Sorry I know this is off topic.

Comment #78: shakahi  on  10/04  at  03:31 AM

I’m sure you’re right but I think it would be beneficial for them to study just because of the pain management implications. They’ve experimented with using mushrooms for migraines. They teach chronic pain patients, like myself, how to meditate to manage pain. If those nuns are triggering a spot in the brain that could be triggered with a medication it could be a great non-opioid pain killer.

Shakahi, right at this moment I am blessing whoever came up with diclofenac sodium thankfully and sincerely, after a couple of hours with a serious back problem.  Any activity aimed at relieving chronic or acute pain in humanity must be regarded as a mitzvah, and pain considered one of the Great Enemies to overcome.

Comment #79: Phoenician in a time of Romans  on  10/04  at  06:00 AM

The thing I always think when someone says they don’t “believe in” evolution is - how could it NOT happen?  In what world could it not be a consequence of reality?

The thing I always think of in this sort of situation is that it is utterly meaningless even when taken wholly by their own rules.

If my house was an empty lot a year ago and was built in a two months, the fact that there wasn’t plumbing here two years ago doesn’t change that I have running water now, and doesn’t make my faucets unreal.

Even if the world was created from nothing over six days 4,000 years ago, it was demonstrably created with multi-million year old fossils, dateable carbon decay in progress, and evolution well under way. The most religion can claim by its own rules is that whatever is actually going on has God as its cause, not that it isn’t happening.

For people who claim an omnipotent God, the one they claim to believe in is pathetically unimaginative, haphazard, indelicate, and sloppy. I’ve always felt that a God who actually created the world around us that cutting edge science describes has it all over the one they came up with.

Comment #80: Lymis  on  10/04  at  10:54 AM

Depending on your mother, you could also talk to her and let her know that you actually don’t want grace being said at Thanksgiving.

Thanks, Karinna, I was thinking the same thing.  Still haven’t worked up the gumption yet…

Phylosopher, I love that idea—of thanking the farmers rather than Disco Ball.  Thanks so much, I will definitely incorporate that into the ritual.

Comment #81: Ranylt  on  10/04  at  10:56 AM

I really fucking hate that standard. Well lots of people believe it, that means you need to show respect.

I ran into this attitude in a really weird way last week.  One of my paper’s advertisers submitted an article for our healthcare section full of pseudoscience, and I had to be the one to call my boss and tell her that it was untrue and it would be irresponsible of us to print it.

Unfortunately, said pseudoscience was the basis of the advertiser’s business.  No matter how much proof, or how many logical arguments I presented, their bullshit was going to appear in the paper.

Frustrated, I posted a quick refutation of the pseudoscience on Twitter.  Within an hour, I got a very nice response from someone, the gist of which was, “Are you saying I shouldn’t be using this?  I already spent a lot of money on these miracle cures, and I’d hate to think I was wasting my money.”

And of course, I balked.  Nobody likes to call a stranger a fool, and nobody likes to deliver bad news, especially to someone who’s done nothing to you.  And likewise, I know I don’t like to get the news that I’ve been wasting my time/money.  So instead of saying what I meant - which was “Yeah, you’ve been duped.  Better get out now while you still have some cash left,” - I sent this random person a link to wikipedia explaining how the pseudoscience was debunked.

I realize that this is, in essence, the same principle on which I was inclined to call myself an agnostic for all the years I lived in a religious community.  I hate to make people feel foolish; even if they won’t get angry at it, I just plain feel bad doing it.  I wish I’d had the courage to say what I meant back then.

Comment #82: realityfighter  on  10/04  at  02:51 PM

yes atheism is great and we don’t have to go to church on sundays, but why would you sleep in when you can get up early to play video games for 5 hours?

Comment #83: Stephanie  on  10/04  at  06:17 PM

I think it would be beneficial for them to study just because of the pain management implications.

Pain management is a whole other neurological ball of wax than identifying what section of the brain recognizes Self/Not Self. I’m not disagreeing with research on hallucinogenics would be useful, but it’s gotta be done in its own context.

Comment #84: benvolio  on  10/04  at  06:54 PM

Re: “I don’t believe in not believing”

I “don’t believe” in Islam. I doubt this woman does either. I “don’t believe” in Buddhism, nor Hinduism, just like her. In fact, there are thousands of gods that she nor I “believe” in; it’s just that I “don’t believe” in one more god than her.

Comment #85: melior  on  10/05  at  01:44 AM

Realityfighter:

And of course, I balked.  Nobody likes to call a stranger a fool, and nobody likes to deliver bad news, especially to someone who’s done nothing to you.  And likewise, I know I don’t like to get the news that I’ve been wasting my time/money.  So instead of saying what I meant - which was “Yeah, you’ve been duped.  Better get out now while you still have some cash left,” - I sent this random person a link to wikipedia explaining how the pseudoscience was debunked.

I enjoy setting people straight.  You don’t have to call her a fool.  You say, “Smarter people than you have made similar mistakes.  Here’s the problem with what you’ve been told.  Don’t spend another penny until you’ve read this.”

Comment #86: oldfeminist  on  10/05  at  03:15 AM

you get to sleep in on Sundays

Years later, I still marvel at how much I enjoy this simple pleasure.

Good post.

Comment #87: bomberE  on  10/05  at  08:41 AM
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