Login

Register

Member List

RSS Feed

Amanda | Contact

Auguste | Contact

Jesse | Contact

Pam | Contact

Next entry: Desperation remains unattractive Previous entry: New Science!

Zombie spinster scare stories, with a Euro twist!

It’s been 19 years since Susan Faludi’s seminal tome on the anti-feminist backlash of the 80s—-titled, of course, Backlash—-was released. The book covered a lot of ground, indicting everything from the film industry to the legal system, for waging war on American women’s rights and dignity.  One of her biggest coups in the book was the devastating expose of Newsweek, for an irresponsible feature story that implied that feminism has run men off of marrying in retaliation, with the notable and completely false claim that a woman over 40 was more likely to be killed by a terrorist rather than get married.  Faludi not only disproved this claim, but also attacked the larger narrative about how women are desperate to marry unwilling men, pointing out that polling data shows that men are more, not less, eager to marry than women.  Newsweek was so thoroughly and famously devastate by her critique that they actually had to recant the story, albeit 20 years later and with lots of defensive caveats. They even went so far to dig up 11 of the “unmarriageable” women they profiled in the original story, and found that 8 of them have married since then, and others have decided they really don’t want to marry anyway. 

You would think after an embarrassment like that, journalists and other writers might think twice about trotting out thinly disguised hysterical warnings to educated, professional women that all those brains and all that independence was going to run the menfolk off.  You would think that the fact—-admitted in the Newsweek recantation—-that college-educated women are more, not less likely to marry would cool the jets a little. But there is no fucking way that some folks will let little things like facts and evidence get in the way of anti-feminist backlash fun. Irina Aleksander has introduced a quirky new take on the whole genre of making shit up about how American women can’t get married (at least, college-educated, professional American women can’t)—-proposing that American men hate the idea of committing to those nasty female things so much that American women would be better off marrying foreign men, who are more eager to settle down. Or, to be fair, she’s narrowed it down to New York women, probably hoping the geographic specificity will shield her from those nasty facts and evidence.

Her argument has giant holes in it, even taken on its merits.  Here’s how it begins:

It was the boozy hour of 1:30 a.m. during a recent party in Carroll Gardens, and the 30-something hostess was telling a flock of women a story about a friend who moved to Berlin last year, after a series of tragic breakups, and met a man who almost immediately wanted to marry her. There were “oohs” and “aahs” all around. The women had to contain themselves from outright applause.

The hostess looked over at her live-in boyfriend of several years, who was sitting across the room with the other boyfriends. “I guess nowadays you have to go to Europe to find a husband,” she said, looking at the fair, upturned faces around her.

For now, I’m going to set aside my skepticism about the idea that a whole roomful of women would be so impervious to the shame of bullying your boyfriend to love you—-or at least, present a realistic facsimile—-in front of company.  Let’s assume this happened, and that there was indeed a roomful of people that merely lived together, and that this is evidence that no one was committed.  Then what to make of this?

Jane Yager, 31, a writer, moved to Berlin four years ago and met a British man with whom she now cohabits and has a 16-month-old son (though they are not married; in Europe, American gals’ preoccupation with “getting the ring” is viewed in many quarters as hopelessly bourgeois).

By her own measure, if an American man moves in with you, it shows his lack of commitment, but if a British man does it, he’s totally committed.  Perhaps these recalcitrant New York men also find marriage hopelessly bourgeois?  That seems the likelier explanation to me, far likelier than assuming that all men in New York are filled with such loathing for showing that they might like a girl (which is SO GAY) that they’ll put off the wedding indefinitely.  But what do I know?  I’ve only lived her for a month.  Maybe I’ll discover that New York men are a special breed of asshole, though I have seen exactly no evidence for this contention and have instead hung out with a lot of men who are married or otherwise happily committed to their female partners.


But what bothered me more than giant logic holes like that—-and believe me, that’s saying a lot, due to my loathing of giant logic holes—-is the “just us girls, OMG!” tone this piece takes.  It makes me want to hand over my uterus and all pairs of high heels I currently own, just to get an exemption from this shit.  The opening paragraph alone tells you how little Alexsander believes that women have a fucking brain cell beyond just those that keep your unconscious physical functioning running.  Like most people, I’ve known a lot of women—-old, young, stupid, smart, conservative, liberal, mean, sweet, women who actually want to be laden down with tacky diamonds, women who gave up shaving a long time ago—-but I have never met the woman who would ooh and aah if a friend said, “Oh yeah, he wanted to marry me within minutes of meeting me!” I’m sure such a woman exists, but the vast majority would immediately worry that their friend has lost her fucking mind and would caution her about how men that want to lock that shit down immediately are probably the sort that will begin beating the shit out of you minutes after the wedding.  And that’s a best case scenario—-there’s always the possibility that he’s a serial killer with a whole bunch of dead families that you don’t know about, or perhaps that he’s a killer robot with a whole bunch of dead families you don’t know about.  Point being, you can’t trust a man who wants to marry a perfect stranger.  He’s up to no good.  I find it impossible to believe an entire roomful of women that doesn’t have killer robot fears about such a man would be something you could simply toss together over cocktails in Carroll Gardens.

But apparently Aleksander not only finds this possible, but believes that all women—-yes, even you female readers—-are firm believers that there’s something just great about overtly creepy behavior that seems more like a trap than an expression of love.

Ms. Yager said. “[Here] if you were interested in having a relationship, you could show it much more directly and immediately. … We were not even living together at the time he suggested we have a baby.” Yes, dear reader, he suggested it.

The notion that men have to be dragged kicking and screaming into marriage and babies by women is a myth that won’t die, no matter how much statistical evidence you throw up to counter it.  Look, by every measurement, marriage is a pretty damn good deal for men, and not so much for women.  Married men make more money, have more free time, live longer, and even adopt healthier eating habits.  In contrast, women have less free time, make less money, are more likely to be depressed, and even gain more weight when married. I’m not saying that women get nothing from marriage—-there’s always the desire to express love, you know—-but the fact of the matter is that marriage generally works in our society as a way for women to contribute labor and support for men, to men’s betterment and often at women’s expense.  The only reason you could possibly think that men wouldn’t find the institution beneficial is if you believe that women are so irritating, so nasty to be around, such a drag that men are willing to forgo all these benefits to escape women.

Reader, I’m skeptical.  There are many reasons individual men might not want to marry, but the idea that it’s a trend makes no sense at all.

One thing I can safely say is this: The notion that Europeans offer a safe haven for marriage-happy Americans who want to escape our oppressive anti-marriage culture is about as wrong a statement as you can make.  Aleksander tips her hand a little on this, noting that there’s a lot more respect for cohabitation in place like Britain, but then she scurries back to her indefensible thesis, as if that covers her ass enough.  I don’t know about men vs. women, but I do know that the European Union countries have lower marriage and childbirth rates than the U.S..  It seems that contrary to Aleksander’s claims, Europeans are less interested in marriage and babies, especially in seeing these things as something that you have to accomplish in your lifetime or you’re an incomplete, unloved harridan.  I’m not saying they don’t have the bullshit squirrelly spinsters vs. reluctant bachelors narrative.  I’m quite aware of Bridget Jones Diary.  But if indeed there is a marriage strike of any sort going on, caused by men or women or both, then the statistics show that it’s much more likely to be happening in Europe and not in the U.S.

 

------

Registration is now required! We're still in the process of getting it all squared away, so for the moment don't forget to Login or Register using the links in the upper left menu before starting to write your comment.

Posted by Amanda Marcotte on 07:15 PM • (109) Comments

...and when they get their hand around you to put that ring on, there’s no escape, because they’re made of metal.

Old Europe Insurance: For when the metal ones come.

Comment #1: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/06  at  07:38 PM

Lately it seems like all trend articles written for New York City publications consist of hanging out with ones (possibly imaginary) friends and then assuming whatever they do or think applies to everyone else.  Do the people who write these kinds of articles even have journalism degrees?

Comment #2: carovee  on  01/06  at  07:38 PM

Well, I don’t know if you can go by me, but over a decade living in New York City (Manhattan, no less) I received three marriage proposals (although one of them was an English guy.)

For good or ill, after getting to know each (or myself) better, I decided against marriage for me.

And yeah, that myth was going around New York back then, too.

Comment #3: judybrowni  on  01/06  at  07:46 PM

We were not even living together at the time he suggested we have a baby.” Yes, dear reader, he suggested it.

This is just the money quote for me.  He wants to have a baby—not get married, not move in together, he wants a fucking baby.

That’s fucked up.  Because, sure, babies are cute, but they also don’t sleep.  And they keep getting bigger and more and more needy.  No, you don’t have to be married to have one, nor do you have to marry if you do decide to have one, but it’s a damn odd statement to make.

If it’s part of a “let’s move in together forever and start a family” it’s less odd, but this couple still isn’t married despite having said child.  And Aleksander’s whole point is supposed to be that European men are more likely to marry than NYers, and women, who all want to be married, should hie to foreign lands or at least foreign cafes/bars if they ever hope to get hitched. 

Living together with a European is just much more committed than living together with an American.

I also love the quick denial that these hurry-up-and-commit guys are interested in green cards.

Comment #4: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/06  at  07:47 PM

Actually, now that I think of it, when I was living in the greater NYC area, I did propose to my German roommate… mostly because we had the exact same standards of cleanliness and didn’t mind helping each other out when one of us was too busy to get to the dishes or something.

*sigh…*

Comment #5: Mighty Ponygirl  on  01/06  at  08:05 PM

If a European man said he wanted to marry me within minutes of meeting me, I’d think one thing, and one thing only (besides “Get me the fuck out of here!,” of course)—green card.

Another thing—I haven’t read this article, nor do I plan to (life is too short), but I love the just-barely-concealed racism of the idea of “Girls, let’s all go to Europe to snag husbands!”

I mean, even if you’re hellbent on not marrying an American, there are plenty of other places in the world you could go husband-hunting.

Those places tend to be somewhat lacking in white dudes, though.

Comment #6: Kathy G.  on  01/06  at  08:19 PM

The hostess looked over at her live-in boyfriend of several years…

Lulz.  Yeah, if you’ve been living with your constant companion and bed-buddy for several years, the only difference between you and a married person is a ring and a couple grand off your taxes.

I also enjoy the parable within a parable of the woman who has gone through multiple painful breakups (presumably with men whom she’s date for some extended time) and decides it would be great to get married “immediately” with the first guy she meets in Germany.  I mean, Christ on a pogo-stick, do they keep the pre-nups next to the condoms in that country?  I mean, nothing would make me want to merge bank accounts with a girl I’ve known for six weeks like a series of painful break ups just a few years back in my history.  What could possibly go wrong?!

Fucking crazy people.

Comment #7: Zifnab  on  01/06  at  08:25 PM

A desirable woman in her 30s could meet someone, date for a while, enter a relationship, spend Thanksgiving at her boyfriend’s parents’ house, rent an apartment together, adopt a pet, wash his skivvies for years and still: </b>Long-term commitment is not guaranteed.</b>

someone is confused about what marriage is or isn’t. last i checked, marriage is no guarantee for long-term commitment, either(at least not as seems to be defined here, since “years” of being together doesn’t seem to count). Someone should tell the author to google the word “divorce”.

Comment #8: jadehawk  on  01/06  at  08:25 PM

“In the U.S., there are all these fairly ritualized things both men and women are supposed to do in the early stages of dating to show the other person you’re not desperate or psycho, like waiting a certain amount of time after you get someone’s number before you text or call them,” Ms. Yager said. “[Here] if you were interested in having a relationship, you could show it much more directly and immediately.

only remotely accurate part of the article, but not relevant to actual long term commitment. what she’s describing is the fact that Germans (and many other Europeans) don’t “date”. It’s more common to meet in groups of friends than in one-on-one situations, and the only way you’d usually get into a relationship is by stating that you want one. I actually had some British friends refer to American-style dating as “relationship try-outs”; it’s just not that common (though I do hear that it’s becoming somewhat more popular, probably because of Eagleland Osmosis)

Comment #9: jadehawk  on  01/06  at  08:33 PM

The notion that men have to be dragged kicking and screaming into marriage and babies by women is a myth that won’t die, no matter how much statistical evidence you throw up to counter it.
Oh sweet jeebus, WHEN will this irritating fairy tale DIE ALREADY??
It’s a real pet peeve of mine, being a single woman who absolutely never wants to get married.  And yet every guy I date ends up wanting exactly that. 
WTF?  I’m already dating the most liberal, artsy atheists I can get my hands on, and making it crystal clear from the get go that marriage and babies are not on the table…
I think the biggest reason the persistance of this myth bugs me so much is that because of it, everyone assumes I’m not serious when I say no marriage/kids for me.  They just think:
a.I just haven’t met the right guy yet.
b.I’m putting a brave face on being unmarried, but secretly I want that ring. 
It drives me insane.  Okay, rant over, thanks for listening.

Comment #10: nico  on  01/06  at  08:35 PM

Huh.  Well, part of me wants to smirk a bit about the article (such as it is), because IME, European men do tend to like me more than American men do.  Then again, NYC men also historically [seem to] like me better than Southerners, and of course liberal feminist men like me better than rednecks do or should, and vice-versa.  Some cultures—more socially liberal ones—are just kinder to smart, opinionated women than others, after all.  Of course it’s a hideous overgeneralization, but I’d probably bet on more potential partners for someone like me in Europe.  Or NYC, or Chicago, or Portland, or hell, even San Francisco for that matter. 

Beyond the truly horrific framing, what I see second-hand is more an indictment of American men than American women, although that may just be my own vanity talking.  American men, after all, are known for seeking out mail-order brides from less-developed countries, while these not-entirely-representative American women seem to need to move up wrt social & cultural development.

Comment #11: latts  on  01/06  at  08:37 PM

I wonder if the American spinsters sent to Europe to find a man who will commit might run into some of the American bachelors who are sent to Europe to find subservient European wives…

Comment #12: MikeEss  on  01/06  at  08:38 PM

oh yeah, forgot to add that when she says “if you were interested in having a relationship, you could show it much more directly and immediately”, that doesn’t actually mean harassing strangers. By the time the possibility of a relationship comes up, you’d already know each other because you are from the same social circle in some way or another, and have already made some “friendly contact”. This in no way resembles the rather creepy way in which complete strangers can ask you out on a date and you only get to know them through this dating-process.

Comment #13: jadehawk  on  01/06  at  08:38 PM

...and I assume that picture is Grace Kelly and Prince Rainier, right?...

Comment #14: MikeEss  on  01/06  at  08:39 PM

And is it just me, or are these stupid anecdata trend pieces getting more and more transparently fictional with their “me and my friends were sitting around x location and started talking about x”? 
I mean really, this one’s not even trying.  Between the rapt women with their upturned faces listening to this boring-as-day-old-shit story, and their reaction of envy when some stranger proposed to their friend…  I call bullshit times infinity.
Every woman who’s ever dated at all has met some weirdo who wanted to rush into a commitment after a date or 2, and every woman knows that’s a fucking RED FLAG, not something to celebrate over.  I know a lot of women who are absolutely desperate to get married, and even THEY would hear this story and say “run away, girl, run away from that psycho”.

Comment #15: nico  on  01/06  at  08:47 PM

Mr Ess wrote:

I wonder if the American spinsters sent to Europe to find a man who will commit might run into some of the American bachelors who are sent to Europe to find subservient European wives…

No, because they went to the Philippines, not Europe.  smile

Comment #16: Dana  on  01/06  at  09:05 PM

WTF?  I’m already dating the most liberal, artsy atheists I can get my hands on, and making it crystal clear from the get go that marriage and babies are not on the table…

Hello?  You’re socially and biologically desirable, powerful human elements for men to deal with.  Especially after becoming sexual partners, verbal promises before sex hold very little power for many.  Obviously.

Comment #17: paradox  on  01/06  at  09:10 PM

Well, part of me wants to smirk a bit about the article (such as it is), because IME, European men do tend to like me more than American men do… Some cultures—more socially liberal ones—are just kinder to smart, opinionated women than others, after all.

There is still an undercurrent of “ew, girls are icky” in this country, although certainly not to the extent that Newsweek or Aleksander would have us believe.  I can’t even begin to recount how many American men I’ve dated who have strung me along or otherwise acted like I wasn’t shit (in a subtle way, I would never tolerate overt abuse).  The few Europeans, and Africans, I’ve dated acted like they were genuinely interested in me.  There wasn’t any of this false posturing, borne out of a combination of fear of women and fear of emasculation that many American men still seem to suffer from, especially when they’re in their teens and 20s.

That’s been my experience at least.

Comment #18: keshmeshi  on  01/06  at  09:11 PM

What’s up with the blanket “European” label as if a man from Sweden is going to have the same cultural mores towards dating and marriage as a man from Italy? I think that’s highly unlikely.

Comment #19: Ben D.  on  01/06  at  09:25 PM

The only reason I would get married again is to get a nice set of Shun knives (it would be just about the only thing on my “registry”).
Having been there, done that and having a nice divorce certificate to prove it, I just can’t see the benefit of getting married. Maybe tax breaks ?
Even having a kid with someone seems far less complicated if you’re not married. I dunno.

All that said, I still think that gay people should be allowed to be just as stupid as the straights are with the whole marriage thing. Damn it certainly won’t get any more screwed up than it already is - which is the most hilarious “defense” of marriage that most xians can come up with.

I’m sick to death of these idiot fluff pieces. Shouldn’t the paycheck you get from dumping that garbage into the world burn up in your hands or something? Feh.

Comment #20: Danica Lefse Queen  on  01/06  at  10:04 PM

I have a husband.  We are nearing year 20 for marriage and just passed year 25 for relationship.

All the same, I don’t get the whole “husband as a “to do” list item”.  Husbands and boyfriends happen when you are out living - as do wives and girlfriends.  You acquire them - or don’t - while going about living life.

Life is the ride to be ridden.  The people in it are found along the way.

Comment #21: Ms Kate  on  01/06  at  10:06 PM

Also- Mighty Ponygirl brings the LOLZ.
I haven’t seen that in a few years! :D

Comment #22: Danica Lefse Queen  on  01/06  at  10:09 PM

There you go with your facts again.  How un-feminine of you. grin

“Backlash” is a terrific book.  I saw Susan Faludi give a reading when it came out and she was great in the Q and A.

Comment #23: Sir Charles  on  01/06  at  10:10 PM

As an older American man, I think my younger counterparts are living in a stage of arrested developement. They act like they are still in school, only they have more money and take better vacations. I know my 30 something daughter is very tired of, as she calls them, “boys”!
I was divorced after 20 years of a marriage that started when I was 24. The first couple of years after the divorce I dated unhappy, divorced women or panicky career women. Believe me when marriage comes up after 4-6 weeks of dating its a scary thing…I dated one woman for a month and took her to a family 4th of July celebration and while standing next to my Mom in the kitchen fixing some asparagus dip she announced she was going to marry me. My sister dropped a bowl of potato salad on the floor! Thank God I made through 11 years as a single guy alive and ended up with a rational, smart woman! Good luck out there in the single world, I could give you a ton of advice, but you wouldn’t listen anyway!

Comment #24: Jager  on  01/06  at  10:13 PM

You get tax breaks for being married?  Do tell. Most states and the Fed love to tax you more because you obviously just cut your living expenses by half ...

That said, I think the EuroGuy wants to get married so he can come to the US ... or because EuroGal doesn’t want to get married.  In most northern Euro countries, shacking up while having kids is quite popular.

Comment #25: Ms Kate  on  01/06  at  10:14 PM

It seems that contrary to Aleksander’s claims, Europeans are less interested in marriage and babies, especially in seeing these things as something that you have to accomplish in your lifetime or you’re an incomplete, unloved harridan.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the fact that marriage is less common actually takes the pressure off.  After all, if most people just cohabit, then that’s what you’re trying to get to when you want your “commitment.”  You don’t have that thing here in the States where you can end up with one cohabiting partner who thinks of it as a trial period before marriage living with one who has no intention of getting married.

Not to mention the other thing all of these European countries have in common:  universal healthcare.  When you don’t have to get married in order to have access to medical treatment for yourself and your children, marriage is a lot less important.

Comment #26: Mnemosyne  on  01/06  at  10:29 PM

the fair, upturned faces around her

Who the fuck writes garbage like this, and where the fuck are the motherfucking copy-editors?

And what the fucking fuck is it supposed to mean that the upturned faces are “fair”? That this story is only for white chicks and black chicks have to go to someplace other than Europe to find their husbands?

Comment #27: PhysioProf  on  01/06  at  10:57 PM

Considering that this is easily identified as one of those “friend’s cocktail party anecdote = axiomatic and universal trend pertinent to everyone in any situation” vanity pieces, I’m wondering if the reason for European men’s ease with intimacy isn’t that the person in question is in a transient existence meeting other people of the same description. 

It’s kind of like when you go away to college, or if you spend a long time backpacking through a foreign country.  Every relationship you begin just seems so immediate and passionate and life-shattering.  Even if you will break up with your freshman girlfriend by midterms, or part ways with your Totally BFFs Forever Travel Buddy two cities down the road.  It’s just So Amazing and We Have This Unbelievable Connection, etc. etc.

Also, Jager at #24, my reply to you is that you were probably too forward in inviting someone you’d been seeing for only a month to meet your mother.  If I’d been in that situation, I might have gotten a little presumptuous about your intentions, and I’m in no hurry to settle down myself.  I felt bad about inviting my boyfriend to dinner with my father like 5 months into the relationship and worried a lot that it sent the wrong message.

Comment #28: The Opoponax  on  01/06  at  11:13 PM

It means the women in the story are white, anyways, though the author would probably think everyone should want to emulate their choices.  Well, white, and probably right fearsome waspy.

Comment #29: Brian  on  01/06  at  11:25 PM

Perhaps these recalcitrant New York men also find marriage hopelessly bourgeois?  That seems the likelier explanation to me, far likelier than assuming that all men in New York are filled with such loathing for showing that they might like a girl (which is SO GAY) that they’ll put off the wedding indefinitely.  But what do I know?  I’ve only lived her for a month.

Alexsander is just catering to a lovely little “grass is greener on the other side of the pond” fantasy entertained by many female Observer readers (i.e. 20-something Carrie-Bradshaw wannabes working in the NYC media, fashion and real estate industries). In their personal rom-coms, they’re quirky and kooky MPDGs who’ll have their fling with the exotic European man before getting that poor, self-deluded American hunk to believe in lurve, and end the movie with a wedding montage.

Not that Alexsander and the Observer doesn’t have an audience for this tripe—I know first-hand that they do.

Lately it seems like all trend articles written for New York City publications consist of hanging out with ones (possibly imaginary) friends and then assuming whatever they do or think applies to everyone else.

Lately? That’s pretty much how trend pieces in NYC publications have been written for at least the past 30 years. For example,the New York magazine article that inspired Saturday Night Fever was fabricated. Alexsander is following in a long tradition, minus the originality.

And yes, these writers have journalism degrees. I’d argue that this fact is a big part of the problem.

Comment #30: Gracchus.  on  01/06  at  11:47 PM

I think my younger counterparts are living in a stage of arrested developement. They act like they are still in school, only they have more money and take better vacations. I know my 30 something daughter is very tired of, as she calls them, “boys”!

Well excuse me for not being married and divorced already and being able to give you the satisfaction of being as miserable as you are and instead enjoyed my life.

Also, women past the age of 25 who are still dismissively referring to guys in their age group as “boys” always indicates someone who has issues with men or is just trying to cloak her (rational) lack of interest in marrying right now under a veneer of having “outgrown” one’s peers.

P.S. Berlin and Istanbul were awesome. I’ll be sure to send you a postcard from Aleppo.

Comment #31: Tyro  on  01/06  at  11:52 PM

Just when I am crying for my country, I come across something like this.  People on liberal blogs will continue to pretend that people think and act rationally.  Proven wrong for thousands of generations, they will insist on this nonsense.

I’m 62 years old.  Right now, of all of the people that I knew in high school and college there is exactly one couple that are still married.  I totally crack up at the LBGT community trying to join a proven failed social institution.

Marriage?  Ha ha ha ha ha.

Comment #32: less is more  on  01/06  at  11:57 PM

I believe Aleksander is a cool, snarky feminist whose boyfriend wishes she’d marry him.
However, she’s broke and needs the money, so she wrote this by-the-numbers backlash article because she knew it would sell.  It’s so absurd because she had a hard time taking it seriously; and frankly, she can’t believe someone actually published it.
She’s probably broke due to medical bills.  If we had genuine health care reform, we’d have fewer of these silly articles.

Comment #33: Isabella  on  01/06  at  11:59 PM

That said, I think the EuroGuy wants to get married so he can come to the US ... or because EuroGal doesn’t want to get married.

Even better are the American women who go to southern Europe and hook up with romantic and suave Italian men who turn out to be mammoni. Not only may he be looking for a green card, but also a substitute mama.

Meanwhile, back to Northern Europe, where a Danish tourist bureau is running an ad which BoingBoing describes as follows:

In this video a Danish mother talks about her one-night stand with a foreign tourist. “We met one and half years ago when you were on vacation here. We went back to my house and we ended up having sex,” says Karen. It looks real, but Karen is a fictional character played by an actor. The video was produced by VisitDenmark - a tax funded tourist organization.

Why would a tourist agency produce such a video? In Politiken, Dorte Kiilerich, CEO of VisitDenmark explains:

“Karen’s story shows that Denmark is a free place with space for you to be who you want. The film is good exposure for Danish self-sufficient and dignified women.”

Comment #34: Gracchus.  on  01/07  at  12:02 AM

As an older American man, I think my younger counterparts are living in a stage of arrested developement. They act like they are still in school, only they have more money and take better vacations. I know my 30 something daughter is very tired of, as she calls them, “boys”!

And what makes her any better than the unhappy and panicky women you dated after your divorce? Sorry to say, but some of those women called you a “boy” and “immature” when you (quite appropriately) dumped them for not recognising that you weren’t ready for serious commitment at that point in your life. And if you don’t think one of those “fair, upturned faces” (assuming they exist) made a snide comment about the guys on the other side of the room being “scared little boys,” you’re fooling yourself.

Is it so awful that men in their 30s (or 20s, or 40s, or 50s+) have chosen to avoid getting married early, or at all? This isn’t an argument for men to live in squalor like Apatow’s dumpy heroes or to be callous jerks, but the greater acceptance of shacking up, NSA relationships and all sorts of other alternatives to marriage as valid choices is a good thing.

Comment #35: Gracchus.  on  01/07  at  12:20 AM

Also, women past the age of 25 who are still dismissively referring to guys in their age group as “boys” always indicates someone who has issues with men or is just trying to cloak her (rational) lack of interest in marrying right now under a veneer of having “outgrown” one’s peers.

Or it could be that women past the age of 25 often want to live in clean homes, get up at reasonable hours, eat regular meals, behave like civilized human beings, etc.  In this they are slightly ahead of their male peers who still want to live in squalor, sleep till 3 in the afternoon, order pizza at 2am, and do nothing but play video games all day. 

Ask me, a 28 year old woman with a very sweet but very immature 25 year old boyfriend, how I know.  I mean, I don’t want to generalize, but I definitely understand that plenty of men in the 23-30 age range still fall under the rubric of “boy”.

Comment #36: The Opoponax  on  01/07  at  12:22 AM

Actually, in my own experience, European guys do seem to like smart, loud, creative and otherwise awesome American women better than American men do.  I’m presently a horny, sexy middle-aged USA female, and I am totally into hot, charming and awesome Euro-dudes in their 40’s!

Comment #37: DawnDarc  on  01/07  at  12:28 AM

  In this they are slightly ahead of their male peers who still want to live in squalor, sleep till 3 in the afternoon, order pizza at 2am, and do nothing but play video games all day.

I don’t think this would be possible, especially the “sleep until 3 in the afternoon” part, unless you’re unemployed living with your parents (in which case getting a girlfriend, let alone getting married, isn’t happening) or your parents are paying for your rent and you’re on food stamps (ditto).

Comment #38: Ben D.  on  01/07  at  12:32 AM

meant to say “Isn’t happening, in any event”.

Comment #39: Ben D.  on  01/07  at  12:43 AM

Hey Tyro,

My kid refers to guys her age as “boys” because so many of them still act like boys and not in the good way. She’s been married, has two sons, works her ass off running a Charter School and she told me “taking care of two little boys is enough, I don’t need a third”. Issues with men? Sure she does. Don’t most women?

When people get married as young as I did, fresh out of college, in the Army and off to Viet Nam before my first kid was born. (I saw her for the first time when she was 5 months old) Other than my two well-loved and well raised kids not much else came out my first marriage that was memorable. I don’t think either of us were really unhappy or miserable, but we both knew that we had stuff to accomplish in our lives that had nothing to do with each other. We stuck together until both kids were in college (a mistake,BTW) My career got better after the divorce, she went back to school and is now a cardioligist…we are both happy, we communicate and enjoy our kids and grandkids. My 2nd wife had (has) a great career and happily our lives, schedules, wants, needs and desires meshed without either of us having to make sacrifices or too many compromises for our lives to work together. We lived together for 9 years before we decided to get married. Since then not much has changed, but it feels different in a good way.

Comment #40: Jager  on  01/07  at  12:46 AM

My husband wants to do all of that except the squalor part, and (because?) he’s an ICU nurse who works nights.  Oh, and board games.  In addition to the video games.  Not everybody works 9 to 5.

Comment #41: lonespark  on  01/07  at  12:51 AM

When I was dating I’m sure I was called a lot of things, but one thing I didn’t do was pressure any woman for sex or lead them on with BS talk about the future. I tried and I’m sure I failed to be as straight, honest and as kind as I could be with them. It would blow me away when in just a few months time that the lobbying about marriage would start…maybe I was too fucking nice? Here I was a guy in my mid 40’s coming out of a 20 year relationship and what I wanted was somebody to have dinner with, go sailing with, hang out with and if we fucked, great! It is way more complicated than it needs to be!

Comment #42: Jager  on  01/07  at  01:00 AM

Ben - I’m mainly referring to the weekends.  That’s kind of the thing.  When I was 22 or so, I pretty much only woke up before noon if you were paying me to (or, earlier, because it was absolutely necessary in order to get a degree).  Then I grew up.

Comment #43: The Opoponax  on  01/07  at  01:03 AM

Yeah, I can’t figure out where a guy who proposes to you five minutes after meeting you would be greeted with envious “ooohs” and awe struck “ahhhs” instead of derisive laughter.  Even back in Grandma’s day (1940), when women were much more marriage minded, that sort of fellow was considered at best a harmless fruitcake fit for comic relief, and at worst a dangerous psycho fit for film noir.  In Dark Command, a 1940 Western, John Wayne’s character falls in the proverbial Love At First Sight with Clare Trevor’s character.  When he meets her for the first time, he bores her with his long life story, then pops the question.  Her mouth drops open with a “Whaaat?” while the audience cracks up.*

Of course, if every married woman had access to somebody like this guy, then marriages would be a lot happier. wink

*Have no fear, Duke fans, John Wayne does marry her at the end, but only after she’s married the villain and the Duke has rescued her, of course.

Comment #44: Blue Jean  on  01/07  at  01:04 AM

Jager, you said upthread that you introduced a woman to your mother after dating her for a month.  That’s pretty serious, and as I said above, if I was in a relationship where things were moving that fast, I would probably assume that my partner was interested in a lot more than just a sailing partner.

Comment #45: The Opoponax  on  01/07  at  01:06 AM

Also, to clarify, while I’m willing to call some young men out as the children they are, that doesn’t mean I’m a big meanie who’s mad that dudez don’t wanna put a ring on it.  It’s more like “enh, my boyfriend is really lovely and all, but no fucking way am I moving in with him until he can demonstrate an ability to wash dishes with any regularity.”

Comment #46: The Opoponax  on  01/07  at  01:24 AM

She met my Mother the first week we went out. My Mom was in town, we were having coffee at a sidewalk place, my my new “girlfriend” walked by and I invited her to sit down. The 4th of July party was a family tradition and we went down for the day…I didn’t realize that the 90’s were as stiff as Victorian times! I met her Mom when she was visiting Boston and was invited to spend the weekend in Greenwich with the family and that was about 2 or 3 weeks into the relationship, I didn’t introduce myself as their new son in law!

Comment #47: Jager  on  01/07  at  01:25 AM

When people get married as young as I did, fresh out of college, in the Army and off to Viet Nam before my first kid was born. (I saw her for the first time when she was 5 months old) Other than my two well-loved and well raised kids not much else came out my first marriage that was memorable. I don’t think either of us were really unhappy or miserable, but we both knew that we had stuff to accomplish in our lives that had nothing to do with each other. We stuck together until both kids were in college (a mistake,BTW) My career got better after the divorce, she went back to school and is now a cardioligist…

Things seem to have turned out pretty well for you, so you’ll have to forgive me for highlighting the negative for the moment. My point is that a lot of people might look at the tradeoffs and sacrifices you and your wife made by marrying young and decide that maybe they should make different decisions than you did, like maybe becoming a cariologist first, accomplishing those things in your life without feeling like you’re leaving your spouse behind to do them, and not making a mistake of being “stuck together” with someone you’re married to because you had kids.

Now, yes, pursuing your career, following the interest and things you want to accomplish that don’t have anything to do with a spouse and taking great vacations that you couldn’t afford while you were in college might seem to you to be a form of “arrested development,” but to me it sounds like pursuing what you want without taking on a lot of obligations that you might not want and choices that aren’t necessarily the best ones. It makes sense, particularly given your experience, to follow your interests and goals you want to accomplish and hopefully meet someone along the way (or not), rather than marry first and then realize that your goals and life don’t correspond with those of your spouse. That’s not “arrested development,” that’s just avoiding making a relationship mistake.

Comment #48: Tyro  on  01/07  at  01:26 AM

Ben - I’m mainly referring to the weekends.  That’s kind of the thing.  When I was 22 or so, I pretty much only woke up before noon if you were paying me to (or, earlier, because it was absolutely necessary in order to get a degree).  Then I grew up.

Well that makes more sense. I thought you meant every day, which only people who work nights (ICU nurses, cops, firefighters, shift workers, and so on) or losers do after college.

Comment #49: Ben D.  on  01/07  at  01:30 AM

And yeah I agree that males are usually 2-3 years behind females in maturity in a lot of things. It’s usually around 25-27 where guys learn to wash dishes every day, keep their apartment clean, and begin to have an aversion to living in squalor, where as with women it starts around 21-24.

Comment #50: Ben D.  on  01/07  at  01:34 AM

didn’t realize that the 90’s were as stiff as Victorian times!

My point is that one’s actions are as telling as words in a relationship, if not moreso.  If someone is saying “this is just a casual thing” and then making me a part of family traditions, my assumption is probably going to be that really, in their heart of hearts, they want more than just a casual thing.

OK, in real life, my assumption is going to be that something is not right here and I should probably get out before somebody gets hurt.  But a lot of women want commitment so badly they’re willing to look past a lot of nuttiness.

Comment #51: The Opoponax  on  01/07  at  01:49 AM

I totally think having a guy propose to me right after he met me is the best!  Oh wait, that was the 11 year old version of me.  Cinderella, Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, Rapunzel…..  add to that Peter Pan teaching boys that they never want to grow up?  The 11 year old me bought up that idea, and would have applauded that girl who had the European fairy tale, along with all of my 11 year old friends.  Maybe this is a case of arrested development?

Comment #52: Katey  on  01/07  at  02:00 AM

Maybe I was clueless about the significance of the the 4th of July party, but my sisters over the years would bring dates (lots of them) and nobody jumped to any conclusions about the relationships. I really liked this woman and maybe if she had calmed down just a little we would have moved on, but she was just over the top with my family and especially my daughters, a college senior at the time and a the older one in her 2nd year of teaching…as the the college girl said to me after the party, “Dad, she is ready for me to call her Mom and it isn’t going to happen!”

Comment #53: Jager  on  01/07  at  02:07 AM

I lived in New York in the ‘70s, and the myth of men-don’t-want-to-commit was making the rounds back then—although I don’t know it made print outside “women’s magazines”—and I met a number of slippery fellows, a couple of whom remain my friends and have since married or settled down, once or twice.

And I got my three marriage proposals, when New York in the ‘70s was still, um, sexual Woodstock, shall we say.

My brother, who lived with me for two years in the city, was gay in the ‘70s (still is) and had sex with, he told me—oh, the number of men pre-AIDS would just astound/horrify you—until he met his current boyfriend of 33 years.

The only reason they’re not married are the (in my opinion, unconstitutional) laws of their state.

But the myths persist about men, gay or straight. The religious right slur gays as promiscuous, or for wanting to marry.

And we women are supposed to be Cinderellas waiting by the fire.

Yeah, right.

Comment #54: judybrowni  on  01/07  at  02:09 AM

Just because there is divorce does not mean marriage is a failed social institution.

It’s just the most common way to choose someone to share your right of decision and choose who you want looking over you while you’re ill and whatnot.  I don’t see anything wrong with having a piece of paper there to show to the constable that you are indeed the spouse.

And no, there is no Fed tax penalty - there hasn’t been for like ten years or so.  Some states, maybe, but none I’ve lived in (four, I admit is few, one of them not having an income tax).

Making veiled insults to married people isn’t any better than making insults at people who are not committing in a legal/financial fashion to a spouse.

Comment #55: Crissa  on  01/07  at  02:12 AM

Oppoponax: grown women are too mature to sleep late on the weekends? You are joking, right? Are normal grown women also too grown-up to enjoy reading books, too practical to like dinner and drinks, and too responsible to bother going to the movies? Ordinary human pleasures on the weekend: for boys! 

If you have an explanation for how staying up late, ordering pizzas, and sleeping in has any relation at all to being irresponsible and not doing the housework, I’d love to hear it. If you like to get up early, you go on with your bad self, but don’t try to drag other adult women into it to lend an air of specious authority to your peculiar—but harmless!—personal tastes. The only way that maturity enters into this is that genuinely mature people don’t get snotty and superior about the entirely benign personal habits of other people.

Comment #56: sophonisba  on  01/07  at  02:14 AM

To be clear: you think you’re putting down immature men, but you aren’t. You’re telling a certain type of man that he’s annoying and aggravating, but normal, and you’re telling the identical type of women that at best she’s not normal, and at worst, that she doesn’t exist. It’s not just inaccurate and sexist, it’s really nasty. Just because you don’t notice all the women who act like human beings with a full complement of quirks and faults and yes, even immaturities, does not mean they aren’t real or that is any less normal for them to be that way than for men of the same age.

Comment #57: sophonisba  on  01/07  at  02:22 AM

Well that makes more sense. I thought you meant every day, which only people who work nights (ICU nurses, cops, firefighters, shift workers, and so on) or losers do after college.

such an enlightened, tolaerant attitude! [/sarcasm]

seriously, what’s with the hatred for night-owls? for example, I’m a freelance graphic designer, and I generally don’t go to sleep until 3-5am, because I’m most creative/productive at night; which of course also means I sleep past noon every day. what precisely is wrong with this?

Comment #58: jadehawk  on  01/07  at  02:35 AM

jadehawk, nothing is wrong with that, and I’m sorry that you interpreted what I wrote that way.

Comment #59: Ben D.  on  01/07  at  02:37 AM

To expound on that, there’s nothing wrong with being productive at night and sleeping during the day. What I was talking about was people who do nothing all do except play video games or surf the net, AND sleep until 3 pm. Get it?

Comment #60: Ben D.  on  01/07  at  02:39 AM

My roommate is in her late ‘30s, female, plays video games all night, and rarely gets up before two in the afternoon. She’s a bartender in New Orleans, unmarried, and wouldn’t have it any other way. She’s also a much bigger slob than I am. She does do her dishes, though.

Comment #61: Matt T.  on  01/07  at  02:41 AM

Right on, jadehawk - I’m a freelance illustrator and generally go to bed at 4pm.  I get so much work done at night, it’s insane, but people act like I’m lazy when I sleep in till noon, even though they know my work schedule.  It’s so weird how people act like getting up early is a virtue in and of itself.

Comment #62: nico  on  01/07  at  03:14 AM

Who the fuck writes garbage like this, and where the fuck are the motherfucking copy-editors?

And what the fucking fuck is it supposed to mean that the upturned faces are “fair”? That this story is only for white chicks and black chicks have to go to someplace other than Europe to find their husbands?
Comment #27: PhysioProf on 01/06 at 08:57 PM

It probably means that it used to only be Black women who couldn’t get married, because of their supposedly lazy ass and criminal menfolk, but now it’s so bad even the pretty White ones are having trouble, which is what makes it news.

Anyway.  I’m sure you’re aware of the financial state of newspapers.

The copyeditors have mostly all been fired.  You’re supposed to edit your own copy.  Your content editor is overworked, and the slot person usually only has time to check for fit.

So things are mostly spelled correctly, at least to the extent that non-words appear in print less often, because the writers use spell check.  Of course homophones run wild on this plain.  Factual content is usually checked by someone familiar with that subject, but there’s less time to do it. 

Tone suffers the most, since a typo or two is more forgivable than this kind of bigoted tripe.

Comment #63: oldfeminist  on  01/07  at  03:16 AM

Newest Amy Adams rom com Leap Year, the commercial for it on just now and as her airplane to Ireland (where the women ask the men, once every four years, or so the story goes) is tossed by a storm we get her line, “I’m not going to die before I get engaged!”

Fortunately, we’re all saved from paying ten bucks for the rest of this tripe (that could have been written by the same Observer female) by the rest of the commercial: see, there’s this Welsh guy who offers to drive her there, they go through trauma like getting rained on together, must share a bed in an inn, and when she gets where she’s going, the boyfriend finally asks her to marry him, and she and Welsh guy share a significant look.

See, he’s a European guy and he’s gonna go for it after just a car trip!

Comment #64: judybrowni  on  01/07  at  04:37 AM

@judybrowni:

Irish, but yeah.  Her boyfriend gave her diamond (big diamond!) earrings, but that’s not a true sign of commitment.  I think it’s a very small subset of affluent white women who think of themselves as “girls” no matter what their age, think “Mad Men” is unfair about the 1950s, dream of a summer “cottage” in the Hamptons, and a stockbroker/lawyer/doctor in private practice husband, then they’ll be able to have “cocktail” parties in the middle of the day because they don’t have to work.  They also think in quotes.

The rest of us either watch movies and snuffle into our pocorn, or roll our eyes and catch a zombie flick.

I think it’s that they still believe in a rarefied Sex and the City New York lifestyle - look at the Housewives of… franchise - these women are living in an alternate reality that has nothing to do with the everyday lives (and political leanings) of regular people.  We watch them and read their articles for the spectacle.

Comment #65: attack_laurel  on  01/07  at  02:12 PM

judybrowni, that makes me sad.

I like Amy Adams.  “Enchanted” is delightful simply b/c she’s in it.  She’ll undoubtedly make that tripe far more palatable than it deserves to be.

But why can’t she get good roles consistently?  It’s like Katherine Hepburn—serious role, then “Bringing up Baby” nonsense.  Adams does “Doubt”, but now back to rom-com.  Didn’t “Julie & Julia” count?

Comment #66: Caren-Sun-blocking Creator of Animorphic Pancakes  on  01/07  at  02:14 PM

The part I find hard to believe is not that some idiot hostess would say such a thing or some women might not have a brief boust of stupid romantic reaction (though it would usually be brief and move to killer robot quickly), but that all the boyfriends would be on one side of the room and all the girlfriends on the other.  Maybe briefly at a party at someones house, but in public?  In NYC?  I don’t think so, not any of the admittedly limited ones I had time to go to while working in the Greater NYC area for 18 months.  There was always at least one guy or one gal wanting in on whatever discussion was going on with the other gender majority group (especially if the discussion was sports vs shoping, work vs travel, etc, not that these are necessarily gendered, just presented as such by people like IA).
She appears to be little more than an overgrown gossip columnist though.

Comment #67: helen w. h.  on  01/07  at  02:21 PM

Newest Amy Adams rom com Leap Year, the commercial for it on just now and as her airplane to Ireland (where the women ask the men, once every four years, or so the story goes) is tossed by a storm we get her line, “I’m not going to die before I get engaged!”

Ugh—I’ve seen the ads, but not the one with that line in it.  Sounds horrible.  Between this and that Gary Marshall abomination, maybe I’ll finally have the motivation to finsh that homemade flamethrower.

See, he’s a European guy and he’s gonna go for it after just a car trip!

To be fair, he did just see Amy Adams in her underwear, he’s probably not thinking too clearly.

Comment #68: Sour Kraut  on  01/07  at  02:23 PM

That’s funny.  If I had a friend tell me about some women who went off to Germany and got married immediately, I wouldn’t applaud; I’d just be glad that it wasn’t me.  Then I’d look over to my (hypothetical) live-in boyfriend and thank him for not pressuring me into marriage.  I must be secretly a man or a freak of nature to think this way though, because everyone knows that all women want marriage above everything else, and it’s not possible that a woman might not want to get married, so it must be the man’s fault if marriage doesn’t occur.

Comment #69: bananacat  on  01/07  at  02:33 PM

Jager:  Everything you are arguing is an argument FOR waiting for marriage or committed relationships until you are older and more mature.  Younger people don’t fully know themselves.  I was proposed to three or four times, and thank the stars I never married any of those guys.  They were so WRONG for me in retrospect, but I was too young to understand that.

Now, in my mid thirties, I’ve met the man of my dreams, a person who has all the attributes it has taken me all these years to understand that I need in a partner, and our relationship is the most mature and thoughtful and fun relationship I have ever been in.  That would not have been possible for me ten years ago, when I still had some growing up to do.

And, no, I still have no interest in marrying him, but I certainly do want to keep him around for a long, long time.

Comment #70: speedbudget  on  01/07  at  02:33 PM

Men in New York City ARE a special breed of asshole…but so are women in NYC. This has nothing to do with dating or marriage or commitment, however, and everything to do with having too much money and too much pretension for a sole human to bear in a responsible manner.

Comment #71: Well, what?  on  01/07  at  02:57 PM

Overall, I agree with your post, but this Point being, you can’t trust a man who wants to marry a perfect stranger.  He’s up to no good. is way overgeneralizing.

First, the auther said “almost immediately” which to me sounds like hyperbole. Could’ve been a week, could’ve been a few months. We don’t know. Second, if the woman also wanted to marry him “immediately” I don’t understand why that is creepy. Only if the desire to marry was one-sided would I think something was off. And third, I know anecdotes don’t equal data, but my husband and I married 4 months after we met almost 5 years ago. We talked marriage and babies about a month into the relationship. So, yeah Aleksander’s piece is shit, but so is the presumption that all people who marry quickly are fools of some sort.

Comment #72: Olivia  on  01/07  at  02:59 PM

Or it could be that women past the age of 25 often want to live in clean homes, get up at reasonable hours, eat regular meals, behave like civilized human beings, etc.  In this they are slightly ahead of their male peers who still want to live in squalor, sleep till 3 in the afternoon, order pizza at 2am, and do nothing but play video games all day.

Oh wow, let’s not get into the “women are neat and responsible and men are slobs” stereotype.  I’m only 24 so maybe I don’t count, but I am a huge slob and rather play video games than load the dishwasher any day.  I’m also female and I highly doubt that this will change significantly when I turn 25 in 5 months.  While it’s certainly true that women face more social pressure to handle domestic chores, it’s certainly not the case that women are always neat and men are always slobs.  During college, I always apologized to friends or classmates or sex buddies before they came into my apartment because it was always so messy.  Most of them just assumed that because I lack a penis, my definition of “messy” is that I haven’t vacuumed the carpet for 2 weeks.  They were always very surprised that it really was as messy as a stereotypical guy’s place.

Comment #73: bananacat  on  01/07  at  02:59 PM

And yeah I agree that males are usually 2-3 years behind females in maturity in a lot of things. It’s usually around 25-27 where guys learn to wash dishes every day, keep their apartment clean, and begin to have an aversion to living in squalor, where as with women it starts around 21-24.

Oh please.  This is just an excuse to convince young women to marry older men.  While it may be true that biologically boy children mature on average at a slightly slower rate than girl children, that’s not applicable to this case.  The reason that men tend to take longer to be clean is because there’s less social pressure on them to be clean.  I’m really not even sure that this trend exists, because you have no data to back it up and my anecdotes are completely different than your anecdotes.  If there is a discrepancy, it’s probably because parents treat their daughters differently than their sons and don’t teach them to do as much domestic work.  As it is, I’ve known plenty of people, both male and female, who are slobs and plenty who are clean.  And it has nothing to do with maturity or responsibility.  I know a very clean couple who is in debt up to their ears because they bought a much bigger house than they need, and I know a messy couple who is financially responsible even though their house is messy.  The messy couple is also doing a better job of raising their daughter.

Comment #74: bananacat  on  01/07  at  03:09 PM

but that all the boyfriends would be on one side of the room and all the girlfriends on the other.  Maybe briefly at a party at someones house, but in public?  In NYC?  I don’t think so

This is a very good point.  The last time I remember all the boys on one side of the room and all the girls on the other is during my 7th grade dances.  Even by 8th grade it had stop being like that and boys and girls interacted with each other.

Comment #75: bananacat  on  01/07  at  03:12 PM

But a lot of women want commitment so badly they’re willing to look past a lot of nuttiness.

I HATE when people say this. As someone who has looked past a lot of nuttiness in her life, I can safely say that not once was it because I “wanted commitment so badly.”

Women can actually like men! Individual men, and if they’re lucky, they also get to date these men that they individually like. And when you really reeeeeallly like having someone in your life, you might go easy on their nuttiness because you like them. Not because you want a fucking ring.

/rant

Comment #76: Well, what?  on  01/07  at  03:13 PM

Well excuse me for not being married and divorced already and being able to give you the satisfaction of being as miserable as you are and instead enjoyed my life.

The fact so many of my high school classmates from my year are married, gone through a divorce, and/or are miserably saddled with living a “responsible family life” was one factor in my passing up attending my last reunion…...way too depressing and too much temptation for schadenfreude…..especially after hearing accusations of being “too immature” for not getting married and starting a family from many of them. 

With more maturity, I find that my oldest cousin’s stance of never having married despite being 50ish because he isn’t ready much more responsible and rational than another boomer-aged cousin who married in his mid-20s and divorced within 2 years because he allowed family and social pressures to push him towards marriage before he was ready. 

Or it could be that women past the age of 25 often want to live in clean homes, get up at reasonable hours, eat regular meals, behave like civilized human beings, etc.  In this they are slightly ahead of their male peers who still want to live in squalor, sleep till 3 in the afternoon, order pizza at 2am, and do nothing but play video games all day.

What do you mean by “reasonable hours”? FYI, I know plenty of people who sleep in on weekends…even to 2-3 pm in the afternoon because they were so sleep deprived during the 50-80+ hour workweek that they needed to catch up when they have the chance.  Though I am usually up by 10 am at the latest on weekends…that’s assuming I wasn’t working 12-14 hour days during the previous workweek. 

Damn….you sound like a colleague’s moral scold father who got on her case for being “lazy” because she wanted to catch some news on CNN one Saturday at 10 pm one night right after coming home from working a 12.5 hour workday as a paralegal.  rolleyes

Comment #77: exholt  on  01/07  at  08:16 PM

Sophronisba @ #57:

There’s something to be said for getting out of bed at a time of day wherein you can actually accomplish something on the weekends.  I’m not saying dawn or anything ridiculous, but, y’know, early enough that it’s not going to be dark in a couple hours.  Early enough to do basic life stuff like run errands or go out to brunch.  Early enough to go to the greenmarket, which packs up at 4pm.  That kind of thing. 

I’m also not saying, “oh, those BOYS and their ‘fun’!”  Yeah, obviously I still like to have fun, and have even been known to stay up late playing video games myself now and then.  But it’s kind of annoying when you want to go do something cool out in the world (a movie, a museum, go out to eat, drinks with friends, etc), and your male peers want to creep out of bed at 3pm and head straight for the couch to play Assassin’s Creed till they collapse with their contacts still in at 6 in the morning, covered in cheeto crumbs.

There’s nothing wrong with that life, per se, but it’s kind of immature.  Yeah, there, I said it.  It’s not the life I want for myself as an adult.  I like seeing sunlight occasionally.  I like cooking and eating good food.  I like bathing in a shower that is not crusted with mold.  I like leaving the apartment to take advantage of the fact that I live in one of the best cities on the planet.  That hardly makes me a mean ol’ stick in the mud.  And yeah, when you’re a woman in her mid/late 20’s, hanging out with guys of the same age, sometimes it seems like the women in general are a little ahead of the men in general, in this regard.

Comment #78: The Opoponax  on  01/07  at  08:31 PM

Men in New York City ARE a special breed of asshole…but so are women in NYC. This has nothing to do with dating or marriage or commitment, however, and everything to do with having too much money and too much pretension for a sole human to bear in a responsible manner.

In that case….speaking as someone who grew up in NYC…..you’re only speaking of the elite monied/yuppie-type subset of NYC residents who are certainly not the majority…..and in the process…erasing the existence of the majority of NYC residents who struggle to maintain themselves as middle or working-class residents….especially in this economy.

Though the MSM seems to love to portray NYC life as an upper/upper-middle class one where people have the time, money, and social connections to join parties and soirees without ever having to work very much/hard…..at best…that’s life only for the most well-heeled NYC residents with money to burn and social connections to draw upon…..at worst…it is not reflective of life for the most of us. 

Then again, the types of people you’re describing above is an apt description of some university students I’ve encountered at two major private universities in the NYC area….though the sentiment my grad/TA friends and I tend to use to describe them is along the lines of “more money and attitude than good sense”....

Comment #79: exholt  on  01/07  at  08:33 PM

And when you really reeeeeallly like having someone in your life, you might go easy on their nuttiness because you like them. Not because you want a fucking ring.

Of course.  But there are plenty of women who’ve had it drilled into their heads their whole lives that singledom = death.  So they stay with guys who treat them like crap because, hey, it’s better than being single.  And even though he says it’s casual, he must really want to be with me if he’s inviting me to family events!  He’ll come around, I’m sure! 

That’s more the mentality I’m talking about.  Not that anyone who dates someone slightly weird is an idiot, or whatever you thought I was saying.

Comment #80: The Opoponax  on  01/07  at  08:33 PM

You know what else sucks though?  Wanting to go out and do something in the world, like clubbing, or a late-night movie marathon, or a sweet new gallery show, and your friends don’t want to because they’re all sleepy at 10pm because they got up at dawn.
Just saying.

Comment #81: nico  on  01/07  at  08:42 PM

FYI, I know plenty of people who sleep in on weekends…even to 2-3 pm in the afternoon because they were so sleep deprived during the 50-80+ hour workweek that they needed to catch up when they have the chance.

I work a 50+ hour week, too.  Actually, that’s part of why I tend to wake up early-ish on the weekends.  That kind of schedule is much easier when you create a consistent sleep schedule rather than having to force yourself to wake up at 5am on Monday after you slept till 2pm on Sunday.  It’s really only the folks who work 10-6 and have Friday afternoons off who can pull the nocturnal weekends thing. 

you sound like a colleague’s moral scold father who got on her case for being “lazy” because she wanted to catch some news on CNN one Saturday at 10 pm one night right after coming home from working a 12.5 hour workday as a paralegal.

It’s not about laziness.  It’s about having only so many hours in the day, and not really having time to waste an entire weekend just dicking around.  I work 11 hour days and have an hour commute on each end.  Anything that needs to be done during daylight has to happen on the weekend.  Anything that takes more than an hour or so to do needs to be done on the weekend.  If I want to go to a movie or hang out with friends or volunteer or take in a cultural event, I have to do it on the weekend.  This makes it attractive to maximize the weekend time I have, otherwise nothing will ever get done.  Including the fun stuff.

Comment #82: The Opoponax  on  01/07  at  08:45 PM

There’s something to be said for getting out of bed at a time of day wherein you can actually accomplish something on the weekends.  I’m not saying dawn or anything ridiculous, but, y’know, early enough that it’s not going to be dark in a couple hours.  Early enough to do basic life stuff like run errands or go out to brunch.  Early enough to go to the greenmarket, which packs up at 4pm.  That kind of thing.

why? what is more mature, objectively, about going to brunch than about having a late night meet at a pub? I’ve had the very same stimulating conversation over mimosas at brunch that I had over beers at night. Time of day is irrelevant.

and as for the farmer’s market… well, when we do have one, I tend to go before going to sleep. Same with dawn photography. it’s easier for me to stay up longer (for reasons mentioned in my previous post) than to drag myself out of bed at the crack of dawn, and nobody is going to tell me that i’m “immature” because i’m a nightowl. you can keep your prejudices.

Comment #83: jadehawk  on  01/07  at  09:13 PM

Ugh, why are feminists pushing stereotypes on here!?! Fuck that. I am almost 30, I hate cleaning and me and my bf have to force ourselves to do the dishes, mainly cuz we would like something to eat on. I sleep past noon if I can because I’m a night-owl, not because I’m immature. I’m a web designer and would love freelance because I am more productive at night, but am not currently freelance. Luckily my boss is cool and knows I’m not a morning person so I come into work around 10 or 11 (not as late as I would work freelance, but better than 8. Seriously I am totally useless in the morning, no matter how much sleep I have). On weekends I only get up before 12 if there is some appointment I have or something, and I stay up all night playing video games or fucking.

Comment #84: slingshot  on  01/07  at  10:18 PM

Relationships are all about compromise and nobody being the “winner”. I run a small media company, my wife owns a high end furniture store, her store is open 12 hours a day, 6 and a half days a week. The total Monday-Friday waking time we spend each other is probably 3-4 hours day. She is usually still in bed when I leave for work and she is at work when I get home. We’ve learned to make the best of those hours, she gets home at 8, I’ve got dinner ready, we have a drink, eat, talk and she goes to bed. We try to make the most of the time we have together. She takes me on her buying trips, last one was to Bali! I take her to conventions and usually skip the bullshit and hang out with her. Our best vacation, we went camping in Colorado for a week, no phones, no laptops, no business and she hadn’t slept in a tent since Girl Scout camp when she was 11! I’m used to busy, disciplined women (my first wife was a Doc) and we’ve got friends who couldn’t manage what we do. I think it might be an advantage to not have alot of down time on our hands!

Comment #85: Jager  on  01/07  at  10:28 PM

For now, I’m going to set aside my skepticism about the idea that a whole roomful of women would be so impervious to the shame of bullying your boyfriend to love you—-or at least, present a realistic facsimile—-in front of company.  Let’s assume this happened

Her fishy story reminds me of a joke the comedian Sarah Colonna from “Chelsea Lately” tells. She says she’s realized she’s at an age (early to mid thirties I’d guess) where the appropriate response to a girlfriend telling her she’s pregnant is no longer “Ssssst eww..do you need a ride to the clinic?” Her joke essentially demonstrates that some and possibly many women usually have the different if not the exact opposite immediate reactions to commitment and babies as douches like Aleksander would have us believe.

Comment #86: shakahi  on  01/07  at  11:17 PM

Sorry I used the wrong quote. I meant to use

But apparently Aleksander not only finds this possible, but believes that all women—-yes, even you female readers—-are firm believers that there’s something just great about overtly creepy behavior that seems more like a trap than an expression of love.

Comment #87: shakahi  on  01/07  at  11:20 PM

@exholt…I lived there too, dude. And while yes, the people with too much money are a subset, they are a disproportionately large subset compared to the other cities in which I have lived. And don’t forget the even LARGER subset of folks who are trying so desperately to pretend they belong to the monied class.

I maintain: I have met assholes everywhere, but I’ve never met an asshole quite like an NYC Asshole. They are a breed apart.

Comment #88: Well, what?  on  01/07  at  11:23 PM

@Opo, no. I’m saying I’ve dated guys who treated me like crap, not because I thought singledom = death or that Marriage Uber Alles was the way to go, but because even though they could be jerks/alcoholics/flakes, I knew I’d miss them when they were gone.

It’s unhealthy and fucked up, but had nothing at all to do with marriage. Though everyone assumed it did.

Comment #89: Well, what?  on  01/07  at  11:25 PM

on reflection “dated” is the wrong word. “longed, wished, and hoped to date, but was instead mostly strung along by.”

Comment #90: Well, what?  on  01/07  at  11:28 PM

“get up at reasonable hours”
I get up at reasonable hours, it’s everyone else who gets up inhumanly early…

Comment #91: Devonian  on  01/07  at  11:57 PM

I work 11 hour days and have an hour commute on each end.  Anything that needs to be done during daylight has to happen on the weekend.

Would work at the law firm my colleague and I used to work at as we’d often had to work one or both weekend days as well as doing 10-16 hour workdays during the week.  Also, a one hour commute on each end is commonplace to many NY commuters….some colleagues had 2.5 hour commutes each way to/from work (i.e. Long Islanders). 

That kind of schedule is much easier when you create a consistent sleep schedule rather than having to force yourself to wake up at 5am on Monday after you slept till 2pm on Sunday.  It’s really only the folks who work 10-6 and have Friday afternoons off who can pull the nocturnal weekends thing.

That’s not been the experience of mine nor those of friends and colleagues.  Where in the world did you get the idea that only those who work 40 hour work weeks or friday afternoons off sleep in on weekends???

Most colleagues and friends with regular 9-5 schedules tend to have no problems waking up at “reasonable hours” on weekends because they’re not sleep deprived.  Of course, they/their dates tend to not be the types to party hard to the wee hours of the morning on most/every weeknight and/or they don’t have kids…whether babies or inconsiderate adolescents. 

In my case, even though I tend to maintain a college-style sleeptime of 2-3 am on weeknights and hung out/went clubbing/attended live music performances 1 or 2 nights a week….I had no problems working a 9-5 schedule and then waking up at 10 am at the absolute latest on weekends.  It was only after I started working 10-16 hour workdays where I got out of work at midnight or 3 am that I started to find that I and every one of my paralegal colleagues sleeping in on weekends well into the afternoon.  Having to work such long hours…along with an unstable schedule which can be quite unpredictable can really cause one to have a new found appreciation of sleeping in on weekends.  Have you considered the fact you may be quite unusual….especially considering that most people under the age of 40 or 50 in NYC who aren’t otherwise saddled with family responsibilities tend IME to prefer waking up later if they can get away with it because most of the popular social activities in the NYC area tend to take place late at night….live music performances, clubbing, etc. 

Most people I’ve known who wake up early on weekends tend to either be extremely religious, came from an extremely rural background, the handful of people I’ve known who need 9+ hours of sleep per night just to function, and/or are elderly.

Comment #92: exholt  on  01/08  at  12:44 AM

The reason that men tend to take longer to be clean is because there’s less social pressure on them to be clean.

That and the fact being “too clean” is seen as a sign by other dudes that one has been emasculated/sold out to the conformist establishment/etc.  I cannot count the times I’ve overheard male college students on other campuses or around Boston making fun of male classmates whose rooms are “too neat” and thus, are not those kept by “real men”.  Of course…most of those events took place 10-15 odd years ago so maybe current undergrads are better about this than my own contemporaries.

Comment #93: exholt  on  01/08  at  01:04 AM

I sleep well past noon on weekends, and tend to stay up until at least one or two a.m. on work nights, and I somehow manage to get shopping done, do laundry, clean the house, cook a fair share of my meals, and socialize with friends. Of course, I’m an immature slacker, since I only work forty hours a week and my commute totals about two hours per day. Perhaps I’ll outgrow it all someday and stop being an irresponsible little boy. Unlikely, though, since I’m 42 and I’m female.

Interesting thread. I’ve learned that the vast majority of New Yorkers are rich assholes, and my own experience of knowing mostly working class and middle class people with a wide range of personalities is utterly wrong. And that it’s irresponsible and lazy of me to have an internal clock that makes me happier and more creative at night. Oh, and that girls mature faster than boys, so us girls shouldn’t complain when the poor little dears just can’t figure out how to wash their own dishes. It’s biological. And let’s not forget the premise of the article being critiqued - I’ve obviously been miserable that my long time partner hasn’t popped the question yet. I just didn’t know it.

Fuck. I’m doing everything wrong. Wrong city (full of shallow, materialistic assholes of a special breed), wrong sleep schedule (early bird catches the worm! rise and shine and give God the glory!), wrong relationship (giving the milk away for free). So why have the last dozen years seemed to be the happiest of my life? All this time I’ve wasted - staying up late and watching tv and going to diners and coffee shops and bars with my friends and reading silly novels and playing with my cats and hanging out with my deadbeat boyfriend who won’t put a ring on my finger and my awful NYC buddies who only appear to be decent, down to earth, intelligent people, but really, actually suck - I could have been going to the local farmer’s market and enjoying the brisk, dewy morning air. I could have been Getting Things Done. It’s a fucking tragedy, really.

Comment #94: dogcat  on  01/08  at  01:30 AM

Well, part of me wants to smirk a bit about the article (such as it is), because IME, European men do tend to like me more than American men do… Some cultures—more socially liberal ones—are just kinder to smart, opinionated women than others, after all.

Selection bias?  If you’re American, then you know all kinds of American men.  If you haven’t gone native in a European country yourself, then you’re only meeting the cream of their crop.  I see the same kinds of generalizations (in America’s favor) from my European friends who come over here and hang out with other exciting, affluent, smart, chic, foreign students and whose interactions with Americans are largely confined to the cream of our crop.  And I get a similar complaint about how boring my part of Ohio is from a bunch of people who generally spent the previous five years, if not their whole lives, in their nation’s glamorous capitols.  I know only a couple of people from Bumfuck, Europe, and they’re probably not representative samples of their community, just like people who tend to escape Bumfuck, USA probably did so for a reason.

As for getting insta-proposals from Europeans, anyone who has spent time on a college campus with female Asian exchange students knows who that guy is.  If you’re not at home, maybe you’re the exotic foreign girl he knows he deserves, and who will be totally better than those bitches he grew up with.

Comment #95: Kyso K  on  01/08  at  01:33 AM

In my experience, Europe is a lovely escape from the American narrative that “marriage and babies [are] something that you have to accomplish in your lifetime or you’re an incomplete, unloved harridan” (from the original post). And in my experience, it’s this European loosening of conventions and fewer demands for conformity to narratives about gender and family, which make Europeans more interesting and sincere (and less hypocritical by necessity) than Americans.

(Just in my experience with Americans, which admittedly is coloured by acquaintance with a distressingly disproportionately large number of straight men there who are assholes.)

Comment #96: Luke  on  01/08  at  04:24 AM

I work a 50+ hour week, too.  Actually, that’s part of why I tend to wake up early-ish on the weekends.  That kind of schedule is much easier when you create a consistent sleep schedule rather than having to force yourself to wake up at 5am on Monday after you slept till 2pm on Sunday web hosting reviews.  It’s really only the folks who work 10-6 and have Friday afternoons off who can pull the nocturnal weekends thing.

you sound like a colleague’s moral scold father who got on her case for being “lazy” because she wanted to catch some news on CNN one Saturday at 10 pm one night right after coming home from working a 12.5 hour workday as a paralegal budget web hosting.

It’s not about laziness.  It’s about having only so many hours in the day, and not really having time to waste an entire weekend just dicking around.  I work 11 hour days and have an hour commute on each end.  Anything that needs to be done during daylight has to happen on the weekend shared web hosting.

Comment #97: jesson  on  01/08  at  07:19 AM

Is it just me, or is all the whining about men and women using marriage as a weapon to beat each other into submission in the “war of the sexes” very, very, very misanthropic and more than a little bit retarded? Makes me wonder why anyone wants to get together, seeing that as a species, we’re all so horrible.

Comment #98: Princess Rot  on  01/08  at  09:03 AM

I get up at reasonable hours, it’s everyone else who gets up inhumanly early…

Lol, I completely agree.  I actually wish I could find a shiftwork job so I could work at nights and sleep during the day.

Comment #99: bananacat  on  01/08  at  11:55 AM

I tried and I’m sure I failed to be as straight, honest and as kind as I could be with them. It would blow me away when in just a few months time that the lobbying about marriage would start…maybe I was too fucking nice?

Consider how people your age and a bit younger were raised, particularly women, Jager.  Even if there was the veneer of careerist feminism, there is still the core programming to “get married or you are nothing” running in an infinite loop.  Backlash articles like the referenced one and the things Faludi chronicles are tapping into that - the same way that many try to tap into racist programming, etc.  That shit is just THERE and many people don’t know how to talk back to it effectively.

Comment #100: Ms Kate  on  01/08  at  12:10 PM

I’m still trying to figure out who in NYC has a living room big enough for separate male and female groups.

Comment #101: Ms Kate  on  01/08  at  12:11 PM

Relationships are all about compromise

Ew. If that were true why would anyone with some self respect want to be in a relationship? Ever? I am completely unwilling to compromise myself for anyone and yet, amazingly, still have plenty of fulfilling relationships.

Comment #102: shakahi  on  01/08  at  01:30 PM

shakahi,

eeeeewwww yourself, “I am completely unwilling to compromise myself for anyone”...
Bullshit! So you pick the movie, the food, the transportation, the color of the fucking drapes, right? And if you want blue sheets and your partner likes snowy white, you get pissed off>

Comment #103: Jager  on  01/08  at  02:38 PM

Jager’s probably right.  There’s compromises and then there’s compromises.  You can give and take on a million issues that come up in a relationship and still be true to your core values.  I had an otherwise perfectly good relationship self-destruct just because neither of us were good at compromising.  Of course, obviously both people have to be grownups about it,  otherwise someone’s going to get shafted.

Comment #104: Kyso K  on  01/08  at  03:08 PM

Kyso, that selection bias actually occurred to me, but I still can’t quite find a European demographic that really compares to rural-conservative American men.  I don’t doubt that there are conservative, racist, sexist, provincial, and enthusiastically piss-ignorant types everywhere, but they do seem to enjoy a lot more political & social validation here than one might expect in most developed nations.  And like I said, I also have traditionally had better luck with men from more urban/northern/liberal areas in the US, so it’s more a matter of demographics & relative odds than any absolute truth.  White American men, as a group, are statistically a bad bargain for a lot of us, and southern ones exponentially worse.  We obviously form relationships with individuals instead of groups—and I remember a couple of former SOs from Texas pretty fondly even though I find the state nutso—but experience & awareness of one’s surroundings colors responses.

Comment #105: latts  on  01/08  at  03:17 PM

Latts, try Poland or other former East Bloc countries.

Comment #106: Ms Kate  on  01/08  at  03:29 PM

catgirl,

I actually wish I could find a shiftwork job so I could work at nights and sleep during the day.

Get a theater job!

I used to work 40-45 hours/week, generally starting at 4:30 pm (with the occasional early call for rehearsals), off ~12:30 am.

That’s a great schedule - you can see your doctor, go to the bank, all that sort of weekday crap that with a 9-5 job usually means having to take off time from work. Here in Vegas, most grocery stores are 24 hours and I can’t tell you how pleasant it is to shop without having to stand in a ginormous line of just-getting-off-work have-to-fix-dinner now crowd.

But I guess I was (and my spouse/partner/wife is) immature and irresponsible when I had those jobs because I didn’t usually get up before 11 am.

:D

Comment #107: teac  on  01/08  at  08:47 PM

Ah, national stereotypes! I have to say, anyone who thinks all British guys want to get married…clearly hasn’t visited Britain or met a British person.
In fact, conservative politicians are all ‘OMG marriage is in crisis! Noes!’
The UK is probably culturally far more similar to the US, than to continental Europe. But I doubt old-fashioned marriage and romance is flourishing there either.

Comment #108: Butterflywings  on  01/11  at  10:41 AM

European men are not all the same.  Just imagine what an Albanian man might expect from you, on average, and then compare it to what a Swedish man might expect from you.  I’m not sure if it even makes sense to talk about something like a “European man” unless you define the countries very explicitly as, say, “old Europe”.

Comment #109: Echidne  on  01/11  at  10:47 AM
Page 1 of 1 pages
Commenting is not available in this channel entry.